Weekend question 4/17-18/10
UDPATE, 4/19, 6:30a: Still no recap of Saturday’s protest from Sunsara. Me thinks it was a bust.
UPDATE, 4/18, 7:20a: At 12:45a this morning Sunsara blogged about a debate she participated in Friday night at the University of Chicago entitled, “”A Communist, a scientist, and a priest sat down to discuss… morality to change the world,” Sunsara being the Communist. Her previous post was dated April 13. No mention of her planned pro-abort NYC subway protest yesterday. So I’m guessing no one showed up. Just made a request at RH Reality Check for an update.
4/17, 6:13a: The “Abortion changes you” ad campaign in the NYC subway system continues to make waves….
The 2000-poster ad buy was supposed to end the 1st week of April. I wonder if organizers bought more time. Will check on that.
Today (Saturday) abortion activist Sunsara Taylor is organizing a counterprotest:
Meet at 2pm near the subway entrance – SW corner of Union Sq. Make your own pro-abortion/pro-choice ad and we’ll spread our message through the subway, stopping at Columbia University, in Harlem and Williamsburg.
I sure wish I could be there. If any pro-lifers are in the area and would care to infiltrate the group, count heads, take photos, and report back, I’d love it and would be sure to post findings.
Here is what Sunsara says will be the group’s message:
Abortion on demand and without apology!
A fetus is NOT a baby!
Women are NOT Incubators!
Abortion is NOT Murder!
Don’t I remember from Psych 101 that making denials in this fashion only mentally draws people to think the opposite? And who was it who said, “Doth protest too much”?
So what do you think of Sunsara’s counter campaign to the “Abortion changes you” ads?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
To all the men and women out there who have been changed by abortion — Sunsara Taylor thinks you’re a liar.
It will flop. It will backfire on them. They will be loud and obnoxious and what are they protesting really?
Abortion Changes You.
That’s just ridiculous – how on earth could the pro-choicers possibly protest against that campaign? Do they honestly think that having an abortion DOESN’T change a person?
I would bet every cent I have that not one of these protesters has ever actually had one. If they had, they’d know it’s not a matter of ‘walk in, walk out, continue happy life like nothing happened’. A friend of mine had one when she was younger and she says she’s regretted it every day since. She was depressed for a long time and would have even attempted suicide if we hadn’t got to her in time. But people don’t see that side of it.
It’s not a pleasant thing and this feminazi brigade clearly don’t understand the implications of it. They just want their easy, happy life. Sometimes I think that it’s just symbolic; that they protest simply for the sake of protesting, for ‘rights’ that they never even intend to use.
But on a more positive note, I do like the campaign idea. The militaristic ‘ABORTION IS MURDER!’ style is counterproductive and fear-mongering. Because it lacks convincing scientific evidence, people just don’t buy it. Focusing on the emotional side is a far better option – it’s something everyone can understand and it promotes sympathy instead of hate. So I just can’t understand why this has sparked such an outcry. It’s just sad.
“I would bet every cent I have that not one of these protesters has ever actually had one. If they had, they’d know it’s not a matter of ‘walk in, walk out, continue happy life like nothing happened’.”
Isabel,
I’d caution you against making that bet. With nearly fifty million children murdered since 1973 I wouldn’t place a wager that this crowd doesn’t include a someone who thought their convenience was more important than another person’s life.
As to the underlying message that abortion changes you that is likely true for most. Particularly those who were forced/pushed into killing their child (and I’ve read reports that that is close to 2/3rds of all abortions). However, some have been repeatedly told growing up that it’s no big deal and some have decided that evil is okay if it leads to convenience in this life. For the women in the second group maybe abortion doesn’t change them. There has to be at least a smidgen of underlying decency in order to be effected by your actions. So bottom line:
No decency whatsoever = Abortion no big deal.
Any decency at all = Abortion is inherently evil and will haunt you.
They’ll be alienating prochoice women who are aching after their abortions, because their protest denies their experiences. If they want to keep post-abortion women in the “prochoice” camp, they have to come up with slogans that make the anguish seem like a positive thing, not to deny it entirely.
Look at the screeching over Abortion Recovery Month. As if there’s no need to recover after an abortion. The more they deny, the more they alienate those who know better from their own experience.
Abortion Changes You
yor bro ken
It certainly changed me.
I went from being an average John Q. Public/Joe Six Pack kind of guy to the father of a dead son in whose murder I was complicit.
Thank GOD for HIS unfailing love and continuing forgiveness, healing, redemption, restoration and reconciliation.
yor bro ken
I believe more than not of the militant pro-aborts have had abortions (probably more than one) and this has only strengthened their resolve and convictions.
There were many similiar mindsets with the Nazis. Some came around to the reality of how they had been brainwashed. However, others defended until their death that what they participated in was moral and right.
If it ain’t broke, Obama will fix it until it is.
ObamaCare: Bend over, America!
Obamacare: Bury your mistakes.
ObamaCare: Prescription for disaster.
ObamaCare: Shovel ready.
ObamaCare: A grave error.
Beer is better than Obama because soldiers like beer.
Beer is better than Obama because you know what’s in beer.
Beer is better than Obama because beer has a pretty good head on it.
Beer is better than Obama because imported beer doesn’t pretend to be domestic.
Beer is better than Obama because beer comes with an expiration date.
Beer is better than Obama because an empty beer is better than an empty suit.
Beer wants to make you sociable; Obama wants to make you socialist.
No matter how often you pee, you can’t rid yourself of Obama.
A beer hangover means you had a good time; an Obama hangover means the good times are gone.
Too much beer means some of us will occasionally have to say “I’m sorry.” Too much Obama means we’re all gonna be very, very sorry for a long, long time.
I don’t really like beer, but I do like to laugh and I can appreciate good humor.
No matter how much beer I drink, the thought of B.O. will only leave me ‘Crying in my beer’.
yor bro ken
Yor bro Ken…I’m sorry. I never knew you experienced that pain. Thank you for speaking out for life and about the forgiveness of Christ!
I was wondering how they are going to “counter protest” with their own ads. Are you they going to paste their ads on top of the “Abortion changes you” ads? i remember reading they’ve already been deface once. I’m sure they’ll have no problem doing it again.
God bless you Ken.
I’ve just been rejoicing in our Lord’s Tender Mercies, which as you know are new and refresh us every morning.
Of all of our Loving Savior’s Wonderful Attributes, I treasure His Unfailing Mercy the most…
because of my desperate need.
For anyone out there that hasn’t experienced the Love of Christ in a deep, personal way; you haven’t had your guilty conscience cleansed with the knowledge that Someone, the Precious Lamb of God, took your burden of sin to The Cross:
The absolute best decision you could ever make in your entire life would be to turn from living your own life in this corrupt sin-sick world; receive the Love, Mercy and Forgiveness of Jesus Christ, the Risen Savior, Who triumphed over sin and death; and purpose to serve Him and Love Him, empowered by the Grace of His Mighty Spirit, for the rest of your days.
He loves you so much!
He spread out His Arms and died for you…
won’t you embrace Him?
Come home.
Call on Him right now. He will meet you right where you are.
You won’t regret it.
No one can diminish the pain, grief and regret of my abortion without my permission. They will sure try though.
God bless you Ken my brother!
You too Ed!!
Really, Jill, was the comment about appearances necessary? That was childish and immature, and wholly tangential to the argument. Such attacks, based upon outward looks and not upon convictions, invalidate anything else you might be saying. You sound like a sullen teenager.
Sorry, I didn’t intend to sidetrack the thread…
He is just so good!!!
I think this little protest will be inconsequential. The vast majority of Americans can’t relate to the rabid, militant pro death mob. Unfortunately, while most Americans now claim to be Pro-Life, it is still a relatively small minority that is actively engaged in efforts to rescue thousands of children from daily slaughter.
Wake up sleepy church!!!
OK. A fetus isn’t a baby. Likewise, a baby isn’t a toddler. A toddler isn’t an adolescent. An adolescent isn’t an adult. All are still human.
Sorry Less,
Maybe I’m insensitive (yet one more thing I need God’s Mercy for), but Jill’s characterization of the little pro death mob was my favorite part of the article. And it wasn’t like she was just making it up out of left field, there have been many picures posted here that support her description.
However, after a quick chuckle, I found my heart breaking for their lost condition. This, coupled with my bro Ken’s confession and testimony of Glorious Redemption, prompted me to invite others to meet our Wonderful Savior.
Lord, have mercy. In Your Strength, save souls today, Oh God.
Ken, that photo was profound, as was the comment. And I appreciate your honesty.
Less, every now and then I can’t help myself, although “sullen teenager” doesn’t quite fit. “Happy profiler” might be better. If someone indeed takes photos, let’s just see how close I came. BTW, hello. It’s been awhile since you and I chatted. Hope you’ve been well. I think it has been a year or 2?
God love and bless you three Carla!!!
Yikes, my Saturday chores are still waiting for me.
Have a great weekend!
Don’t get me wrong, this protest is completely asinine. But I’ll give Taylor for one thing: her use of the phrase “pro-abortion.” The honesty is refreshing.
Don’t get me wrong, this protest is completely asinine. But I’ll give Taylor credit for one thing: her use of the term “pro-abortion.” The honesty is refreshing.
Posted by: kbhvac at April 17, 2010 8:28 AM
—
Ken – thanks for sharing. I was unaware.
Sunsara Taylor:
I am George Tiller
Largebill, you’re probably right. I guess I just have too much faith in people…
“forced childbearing changes you”
Abortion on demand and without apology!
A fetus is NOT a baby!
Women are NOT Incubators!
Abortion is NOT Murder!”
They got one point right – a fetus is not a baby – compared to whoever wrote up this list!
One must seriously ask himself or herself: are these “Abortion Changes You” signs really harmful? Think. Are they terrorists? No. Are they making a simple statement? Yes. I respect the rights of pro-choicers to speak their minds but saying, “I hate you anti-choicers!” is really counterproductive. They ought to strive to make a dialogue. “Abortion Changes You” is not extreme speech- so why can’t they match their counter posters with non-extreme speech, too? Is there something wrong with peaceful conversations? I mean, come on…
By the way, it’s official. I’m going to make my group for peace: peaceful discussions between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. :)
I’m excited. I have to find a pro-choicer who is willing to communicate fairly (I know of one pro-lifer who will be respectful, I just have to ask her).
Any pro-choice person here is welcome to join (or pro-life, too). :)
Vannah, get in touch with Mary Krane Derr from nonviolentchoice.blogspot.com. She’s working on a similar project.
Yay!
Thanks, Kelsey.
My focus will be art-based. Come together as people and artists, but I’ll keep contacts because I know that there are similar groups, but now I have at least one name. And I’ll add Secular Pro-Life to my list. :)
I was not trolling for sympahthy though I do appreciate your expressions of kindness.
The photo is the least graphic one I could come find quickly.
The photo is not my child.
I was trying to make a point that abortion changes the primary victim, the pre-natal child, as well as the secondary victims, the mother and father and siblings and all of the family of man who will never know or experience the life of the deceased pre-natal human.
Do not ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for all we survivors.
yor bro ken
kbhvac,
Beer is better than Obama because drunks make more sense then Obama.
I have never heard of Sunsara Taylor, but I would imagine that every time she sees a pregnant woman, she finds it personally offensive.
“Women as incubators! Ooh, Gross!! How could they stoop so low!?”
If abortion is a basic right of women and is not morally wrong, then over time, the accounts of women who were ‘rescued’ by abortion, along with scientific evidence, would back this up and a majority of people would agree.
If abortion doesn’t change you, then the 1 in 3 women who get an abortion would laugh this off and go on about their day, the way my hunter husband ignores PETA.
It is very telling that women are still fighting for legal abortions when they are already legal. That means that their 37 year experiment of legal abortion is failing due to the truth being exposed by the women who have experienced abortion.
Vannah,
Found some stuff that might interest you in your search for peaceful debate.
http://www.frederica.com/writings/seeking-abortions-middle-ground.html
She has/had a group called Common Ground. She has lot of essays on the subject.
If they’re so ‘militantly’ loud and proud of who they are, then why don’t they change their little chant to tell it like it REALLY is?
“I demand to kill my own child-and without apology!”
Every time one of these ‘pro-dead baby-ers’ talks about ‘forced pregnancy’ I keep picturing a woman tied down on a bed for nine months, or a pregnant woman with a gun to her head….is this REALLY how their minds work???
I know that’s not your child, Ken. That’s a picture of ‘Baby Choice’.
Abortion DOESN’T change you? Tell that to my niece, who’s had a drinking problem for the last 18 months since her abortion. She won’t get help. She thinks she deserves to be ‘punished’ for what she did.
Believe me..I pray for her, I’ve offered to find help for her, etc. She’s not ready to accept God’s forgiveness, or to forgive herself yet.
Some of Sunsara’s World Can’t Wait pals attempting to destroy a pro-lifer’s vehicle ~ OSA event 2006
I guess in the pro-life movement everyone does what they’re called to do. I’m pro-life and have never had an abortion but when pro-choice individuals start spewing hatred I do understand where there coming from. Before I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit I found it extremely difficult to submit. Now I submit to his authority because I know my God loves me because of what he’s done for me and continues to do. I’ve had a lot of healing in my life. And knowing we are loved helps us to love others. So maybe in the name of Love we get legislation passed that protects moms and their babies and at the same time makes men responsible also for the choices they make. Hope this helps.
I like the “Abortion Changes You” campaign. I think the graphics are contemporary and hip. This, however, is petty, bitter and immature:
“I’m imagining a small (very small) band of militant-looking orange-haired feminists with nose and lip rings, dressed either in black or tie-dye, and maybe an ugly, dumpy guy or 2 (hoping to get laid) with bleached spiked hair. Yes, the face of abortion support.”
You know, the pro-abortion movement could profile us in a similar, unattractive manner. I’ve noticed a few times that at my church’s birthright group I’m often the only person under 50.
Sorry, i didn’t see that those comments had been addressed already when I posted that comment
What’s really bothering Sunsara?!
So…is the subway temper tantrum over before it started?
they posed for this picture before heading to the subway: http://tinyurl.com/y2v8uz5
Ken:
I didn’t know that about you.
Praise God you changed.
He is good, isn’t He?
“forced childbearing changes you”?
“forced childbearing” results from forced sex.
forced sex is rape.
convict the rapist, don’t kill the baby.
Oh, but people say there should be exemptions in cases of rape or incest. When all abortions are for babies from rape or incest then come talk to me about it.
A lot of you have really put a lot of thought into the abortion debate. What do you think are the percentages when it comes to those who are pro-abortion. I do believe a lot of these people are deceived and some are just selfish something we’re all guilty of. But I also believe that the spirit behind abortion is far from deceived and I also believe there are people involved in the pro-abortion movement that are evil. My guess is that 20 percent are evil and the rest are deceived or just selfish and or victims themselves. That’s why I think love reaches those that are deceived and selfish and or victims and it also exposes those who are just evil. Jill’s specialty involves one of those areas. You are in my prayers.
Ken- When you sign out yor bro ken, when I first read that it brought such healing your so outspoken when it comes to the truth behind abortion. So I read it as you speaking to pro-choicers and stating yor bro ken as your broken, your arguments are old and repiticious and lack validity. Now I realize you mean bro as brother.
Your honesty concerning your own testimony I think will bring healing to a lot of people. So often abortion is looked upon as crime committed by women and no measure of accountability is expected of the man. Thanks for your honesty and God bless you.
Myrtle,
Statistics say that 42% of Americans call themselves pro-choice.
I won’t make a guess at percentages within that number, but I feel there is a small group that would be in favor of extreme measures, such as abortion all 9 months of pregnancy, infanticide (Peter Singer) and forced abortion/sterilization of the ‘unworthy classes’.
Beyond that, I believe many are decieved, but many more are simply uninformed. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to about abortion that has changed their mind when they realize that:
– babies feel pain in the womb.
– fetal develpoment is rapid and they are not simply ‘clumps of cells, tissue, blood clots’.
– Human life is categorized as having a human mother and father and 46 chromosomes, so they are human from the moment of conception.
– Asking them if they know how abortion is performed and gently informing them.
Most people who are not directly affected by it don’t think about it. Once they do, many decide that pro-choice was just something that sounded nice to say.
Heather-
Thanks sometimes I guess common sense just prevails. when my son had leukemia often I would hear babies cry after having surgery. I knew that they were crying because they were in pain. I was told that that babies didn’t feel pain, they were treating the pain but not totally addressing it. Not long after that the American Journal of Pediatrics published an article that according to a study they realized babies did feel pain. I’m paraphrasing. I think with the abortion issue the same will happen their own science will speak out against them. And the war will be won.
“Meet at 2pm near the subway entrance – SW corner of Union Sq. Make your own pro-abortion/pro-choice ad and we’ll spread our message through the subway, stopping at Columbia University, in Harlem and Williamsburg.”
Wow! Like they’re storming pro-life enclaves?? These are pro-abort citadels. Kinda like trying to sell rosary beads to the Pope.
Ed, I’m going to agree with whoever below said that it’s possible to characters the pro-life movement in a similarly unattractive manner. I’d like to see those pocture.
Jill, things have been very well, actually. Life’s going well.
I think comparing a sullen teen to a pro-lifer is generally insulting, however. I’ll go the former with regard to your description, and the latter for you in general.
Great article, Jill, with one exception: the section about appearance. Unnecessary and possibly offensive, in my personal opinion. I’m passionately pro-life. I have piercings, weird-colored hair, and tattoos. I have a number of other friends who are the same, and just as pro-life as I am.
Let’s keep looking at the heart, not the outward appearance.
I’ve never met Jill in person but I hardly think she is dumpy. She looks like she showers daily, her hair is groomed and her clothing fits well.
If Jill is dumpy I’d hate to think what minnow would say about me! Yikes!
I don’t think I am mistaken by saying the woman who started this campaign decided upon having an abortion because her boyfriend would kick her out of the house if she didn’t. She was also very pro-choice at the time. She went in for the abortion and then at the last minute changed her mind and asked them to stop. The dr. told the nurse to “shut her up” then proceeded with the abortion.
Where was her choice? She found the whole situation very unimpowering. Her choice was taken away from her.
I think it would be interesting for Sunsara to meet the woman who developed this campaign.
Mr.Nadal-
Humbly, consider the amount of people that ride the subway and reconsider your statement. No doubt there are those who are pro-choice. But I suspect the majority are pro-life hence the number of people who ride the subway. Now I’m not sure if the majority of people who ride the subway are economically challenged so my next statement may be out of context but were you aware that sometimes economically disadvantaged women are pressured into having abortions? Intelligent people are very adapt at using an individuals own community to facilitate murder.
Sandy-
I’ve heard other horror stories along the same lines. Which when you think about it isn’t surprising because the real spirit behind abortion is murder. And if they don’t put value on baby females what makes us think they will put value on adult women. I think if American women really woke up and took these criminals to court the abortion rate would really decrease because a lot of these individuals abort babies because they like the money it generates. Addressing these deficiences in civil court would help them to rethink their thinking.
Hi Myrtle,
I was making a mockery of leading a counterdemonstration AGAINST the adds at places such as Columbia University (where I did my undergraduate science). Columbia is the Vatican of abortion rights.
Hey Katey,
God bless you and your friends for your Pro-Life convictions! We need everyone who cares about these innocent children being slaughtered to make their convictions known, in their communities and in the voting booths.
You’ll have to forgive Jill and I for being a little old fashioned. You’d never know it from her picture but she’s a Grandma! (And I went to high school in the late ’70’s, eons ago.)
It occurred to me that proaborts with body piercings and “unconventional fashion preferences” would probably relate a lot easier to you and your friends than Jill or I.
The Pro-Life Army needs all kinds of recruits so that we can effectively impact the many different kinds of people in our generation.
Have a great night!
Sandy I don’t know the story about the woman behind this project but I just put up a video at YouTube that tells the same type of story…the Video is called
Valerie. If you go to YouTube and search under silentnomoremn you will come to it. It is very powerful.
Abortion does change you whether you realize it or not. Those who are threatened by this project fear their choice of legal abortion will be taken away.
I also thought Jill’s comments about appearance were uncalled for. I love seeing all the really wonderful young people at the march for life in DC who have tats and piercings. If I were a kid today I would be one of them and would not want people to judge me by my cover.
At the Good Friday prayer service in St. Paul there are far more people on planned parenthood side that look like the average joe and joanne. I guess to it’s were you live. SF at their walk for life gets quite the mix of protestor against the walkers….New York I am sure will have a colorful array of charaters.
Sorry about that I thought you were judging people who rode the subway. I will pray for the people at Colombia University. To be blessed with intellect is a gift. I find it interesting your study on the link between abortion and breast cancer. I’ve often felt in my spirit that when women are pressured or not given the opportunity to nurture that this would also result in breast cancer. It’s like dismissing their femininity as something trivial or demeaning and yet when you consider the gift of womanhood and motherhood these assumptions seem absurd.
God bless all of you who fight for life. This site has been medicine for my spirit. I should have been studying today but will tomorrow. I will share some of my testimony with all of you. Maybe it will help you when fighting the good fight. My youngest son was born with Downs Syndrome 19 years ago. He’s had leukemia, Wilson’s Disease and Juvenile Dermatomyocitis. He’s been in remission for 9 years from the leukemia. He’s had hyperthyroidism and is in remission. And his blood pressure issues have even improved. He loves school, buffalo wings and chocolate pie. Since he was ten he stopped walking 3 times. He currently walks quite well! Be Blessed the fight you fight is well worth fighting for. Love all of you. myrtle
Myrtle:
May your son be completely healed in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen!
Daily,
You shared my toughts.
An infant is not a toddlers, A toddler is not an adolescent which is not an adult, ect Maybe the prolife groups could do counter ads stating such to show the irrationality for the argument a fetus is not a baby!
Katey, 7:15p: Good point taken.
Dear Ken
I didn’t know.
You don’t need me to tell you God loves you!
“Here is what Sunsara says will be the group’s message:
1. “forced childbearing changes you”
2. Abortion on demand and without apology!
3. A fetus is NOT a baby!
4. Women are NOT Incubators!
5. Abortion is NOT Murder!”
————————————————-
The deceiver, bent one, the father of lies, who was a murderer, liar and thief from the beginning is very ‘gifted’ when it comes to weaving in a bit of fact with the lie.
1. Childbearing changes you, ‘forced’ or otherwise. Living changes you, but there is only one alternative to living.
There are some such as former democRAT Colorado Governor Lamb who promotes the idea that some of us have an obligation to die and he would use the power of the state to ensure that we do not tarry here any longer than necessary.
Except for rape, no woman has ever been ‘forced’ to conceive. [What about the woman who rapes the man and conceives. Does the man have any voice in what happens to the child that is no less his?]
I suppose a woman who elects to be a surrogate mother and agrees to lease out her uterus to ‘incubate’ another couples child, could choose to renege and the bilogical parents could use the force of law to require the surrogate to fullfill the terms of the contract and ‘force’ her to give birth to a live child.
I cannot think of any other circumstance where ‘forced childbearing’ is a possibility.
Shall we talk about ‘forced abortions’? Something that is far more prevalent.
2. Sansara is demanding an ‘entitlement’ to kill pre-natal children with impunity. Not even ‘HER’ own convoluted conscience will be allowed to intrude.
3. A human embryo/fetus by reason of his/her humanity is endowed with the unalienable right to life.
The ‘state’ is NOT the source of this right any more than the human right to self defense. The ‘state’ can only recognizes the ‘right’. The ‘right’ does not cease to be even if the ‘state’ fails to recognize, secure or protect it. Even if the ‘state’ violates the right to life it still exists and justice will eventually prevail. [See Nuremburg Tribunals]
If you are foolish enough to concede that the ‘state’ is the source of the right to life, then you have made the ‘state’ your god and none of the other ‘human rights’ are secure. They are as tenuous and unpredictable as the winds of public opinion.
But you statists/anarchists do not have the sense to extrapolate beyond your own physical autonomy and you will use someone elses Husquvarna to saw off the broken limb you are standing on.
4. A woman’s uterus does serve the function of an incubator in the reproductive process, but a woman is more than her uterus. [Sunsara, if you have a problem with that, then take it up with your goddess, gaia.]
5. Not all abortion is ‘murder’, but all abortion is ‘homicide’ unless the embryo/fetus was already dead before the abortion was performed. Under the laws of God and man there is justifiable or excuseable homicide.
‘Elective’ abortion does not fulfill the requirements necessary to sustain a defense of justifiable or excuseable homicide.
Except to remove an already dead human embryo/fetus, by definition, all abortions are homicide and are either manslaughter or murder.
Hey, Sansara the human,
When your human mother was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus/incubator?
If you by the virtue of your humanity possess physical autonomy that must be respected by other humans, then what about the physical autonomy of the human embryo/fetus?
Doesn’t the human embryo/fetus’ physical autonomy have to respected for the same reason?
Moonbeam, Starshine, Spacecadet,
In the 60’s the Viet Nam war protesters had a slogan :
‘War is good for business, invest a son[daughter].’
I have a suggestion for a more appropriate slogan for you ‘dead babies r us’ folks:
‘The family that preys together, slays together.’
yor bro ken
“… the real spirit behind abortion is murder.”
Posted by: myrtle miller at April 17, 2010 8:44 PM
You hit the nail on the head. Murder has become all too comon on the U.S cities – murders are up 20 percent this year over last year in both New York City and Chicago. Police forces are understaffed because of budget cuts and early retirement. It’s easy to see how this disrespect for life works its way into every corner of society. What are we going to do about the total disregard for human life that these murderers stand for? Just this past Thursday night into Friday morning, a beautiful, balmy Spring evening in Chicago, seven people died and 15 were wounded in shootings.
We should be declaring a state of emergency.
Why not legalize the carrying of guns (illegal in Chicago) and let the bad guys shoot it out, a la the days of the wild west? At least the innocents wouldn’t be killed. (OK, I’m off my soap box now.)
So……..how did the protest go, Sunsara?
I started thinking about Katie’s point during church this morning. Then the drama was about one woman being hurt that another woman had said mean things about how the 1st woman’s daughter dressed. And I’m like, ok ok.
So I just pulled the stereotypical comments I made about pro-abort protesters. And I’m sorry for the mean lapse in judgment.
kbhvac
I’ve come to really like and learn from your responses. Do you mind if I copy and use them from time to time?-giving you credit of course.
Jill–
Thank you for proving that you’re just as kind and considerate as I’ve always believed.
God bless,
Katey
Katey,
It is a free country.
Poke yourself, paint yourself, cut and dye your hair and wrap yourself up however you choose.
Push the societal envelope all you want as you join a herd of other life minded folks in being ‘unique’.
But do not feign indignance when some one else does not share your sense of taste or fashion or laughs at your appearance or heaven forbids makes some reasonable associations based on your manner of dress.
I remember the days of platform shoes, double knit pastel leisure suits and shirts with collars long enough to subsitute for wings for a hang glider.
In just a few more years you will be looking at photos of yourself and others from now and making the same comments that you are criticizing others for making about you now.
The good news about hair color and hair cuts and peircings is they will eventually grow back.
Tattoos are tad bit more permanent. But with enough time and money almost anything is possible.
That you happen to be pro-life has nothing to do with how you choose to decorate yourself.
I trust that you will not cease to be pro-life when you have ventured into the market place and learned that freedom is not free and choices have consequenes.
When I was in high school the urban myth was that the girls who smoked cigarettes were the same ones who would do the deed. The exceptions were rare.
Jill was not incorrect in making a connection between fashion choices and life choices. I am sure there are exceptions there as well, but they are equally as rare.
You only get one chance to make a first impression.
Unless you are a marketable commodity like ‘lady gahgah, the multiple piercings, tattoos, and dyed hair are not going to be conducive to advancing the carreer of your choosing.
Enjoy your youth, just don’t fall into the trap of being judgemental about people who are judgemental about your choices in fashion.
“Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.”
Charles Schultze
yor bro ken
Posted by: Less at April 17, 2010 9:39 AM
“That was childish and immature, and wholly
tangential to the argument.”
“You sound like a sullen teenager.”
————————————————–
The observations that Jill made were generally accurate.
You can get some sense of what is inside the book by it’s cover.
We make judgements all the time based on appearance and they are not ‘wholy tangential’ or usually incorrect.
Deathscorts
While there are many ‘pro-choice to kill the kid’ individuals in the ‘dead babies r us’ mob who dress like mainstream america, the fringe element of the ‘choicers’, the old guard femmiNazis and the militant avant garde feministas who rant and rave and march in indignant protest do tend to the grungy, gothy, dyed, poked, peirced and tattoed look.
The followers of Sunsara, Moonbeam, Starshine, Winddance certainly fits that profile.
Here they are in all their glorious glimmering ignorance protesting against an imagined enemy.
Feminista Tolerance
We all remember that Tebow pro-life propaganda super bowl add on CBS.
yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at April 17, 2010 8:21 AM
The photo of the aborted baby is the saddest photo I’ve ever seen.
Perhaps someone could tell us how the baby died. Was it saline?
* * * *
It’s hard not to judge a book by its cover, but our society still does. We all have our own eccentricities.( I know I do – and I’m not tellin’.) I believe our pro-life friend xalisae has mentioned that she has piercings (or is it uniquely colored hair?). They say variety is the spice of life.
I have a tat. :)
Speaking of Xalisae…I am still praying for your husband and you and thinking of you today.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at April 18, 2010 11:30 AM
God works in mysterious ways. :)
* * *
As I was coming home from church today, I heard one of Bishop Fulton Sheen’s old sermons. He said:
If we do not love those whom we see, how can we love God, whom we do not see?
He was not talking about abortion but he easily could have been had he substituted the word babies for the word “God”.
I have a tat. :)
Posted by: carla at April 18, 2010 1:48 PM
It took me a minute to figure out what “tat” meant….. Your precious little “Aubrey” tattoo! She must be so proud of her Mommy. :)
Katey-
you’ve mentioned that you pro-life but haven’t mentioned if your a Christian which is really not any of my business. But you believe in life hence your position on abortion. It is true people do judge others by their appearance. Whatever you choose is your choice because it just effects you and no one else. Whatever your outward appearance know that you are loved and expect to be treated accordingly. You have the power within yourself to be your best friend or your worst enemy. Be a friend to yourself and expect the same of others.
Perhaps someone could tell us how the baby died. Was it saline?
Posted by: Janet at April 18, 2010 1:37 PM
—————————————————–
Janet,
I do not know what method the abortionist chose to choice that child, but the point of the photo as that ‘abortion changes you’.
Abortion changed that child from the living to the dead.
I have met people whom I believe were christians who told me that the Lord told them to get a tattoo or in the case of my number two daughter,m at least allowed her to get a a piercing. She now has a tiny diamond stud in one of her nostrils.
I just find the whole notion of poking holes in your body to hang stuff on painful at the least. I just don’t get it.
But my daughter is an adult and she knows my personal discomfort with piercings but when she asked me for my permission I told her she had liberty to do whatever the LORD gave her grace to do.
I do not love her or the LORD any less.
God once told a prophet to lay naked in the street.
HE told another to walk around with his buttocks bared.
HE told another one to marry a prostitute.
If I had been a contemporary of one of those men, it would have caused me some discomfort to observe what they were doing, especially if they were a friend or relative of mine.
But if I was their friend then I would know them well and I would have to trust that they were doing what they believed GOD told them to do.
God will challenge our understanding of HIM, especially when we believe we have HIM figured out.
Jesus is exhibit numero uno in that department.
HE challenged everyones understanding.
Hint: GOD is still in the business of challenging our understanding of HIM.
yor bro ken
Phil-
Thank you. I’ve dreamed twice that Daniel was completely healed. And a preacher prophesied years ago that God was doing a gradual healing in Daniel. After that prophesy I seen the shape of his nose actually change. I have a lot of faith for physical healings. But the miracle in this story is the healing that Daniel has brought to my soul. I’ve had a lot of hurt in my life and being Daniel’s mom and caregiver has brought healing to my soul. Now I’m asking people to pray for his intellect to increase so he can do well in school the same thing I ask people to pray for me. Be blessed.
Myrtle–
Thank you for your encouraging words! Yes, I am a Christian, as well as passionately pro-life.
Ken–
I accept your right to have an opinion about my appearance. I understand and respect the ‘Generation Gap’–when I asked my father for permission to get tattoos, piercings, etc. he gave me the same answer you gave your daughter–so I was not personally offended by Jill’s comments.
I’m a college student, so I have friends who are pro-choice or on the fence about abortion. Some of them look much like I do. I wouldn’t want them to visit a great pro-life blog and get immediately turned away by what they saw as shallow, mean-spirited judgment about their appearance. (I know this is NOT what Jill meant at all–but many young adults already wrongly associate conservatives, including pro-lifers, with finger-pointing, judgmental behavior that focuses on making everyone conform to a template.)
” I told her she had liberty to do whatever the LORD gave her grace to do.”
ken,
I don’t mean to offend, but I’m not sure I understand what that means. By the way, I tell my daughter “no more piercings (in addition to one in each ear that she has now) until you are eighteen and then you can if you still want to”. Like you, I don’t get the appeal and I’m still with the idea that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit from my younger years, not to be defaced…..
Katey,
What a thoughtful response!! Thank you for sharing that.
It reminds of something I used to read(Al-Anon?)about “taking” offense at something. It is a choice(there is that word again!)to be offended.
I am not easily offended anymore as I choose not to be.
That does not hold true for those that see a Christmas tree and decide to sue the city. Taking offense at something is no basis for a lawsuit to begin with but I digress.
Ken-
From your writings I know you know what your talking about and the reference you made to the prophet Hosea I’m familiar with but not the other two. Could you please provide scripture and verse. Thank you. myrtle
It’s not “defaced”, it’s “adorned”. I choose which jewelry to put through my lip as anyone else would choose whether to wear a blue shirt or a green one. I don’t see what all the fuss is about, nor do I care, though, so be as crotchety as you please. ;P
Ken,
I share a lot of your comments with my husband. I find you so thoughtful and hilarious.
Everybody,
I am a mother, due to have my 5th child in August. I have 7 tattoos.(They are addictive. :)
I am in no way offended by comments about personal appearance, everyone has an opinion, but I think Katey made a really good point about how people see us. For several years, I was a youth director and my tats and age and ‘jeans and t-shirt’ type dress allowed them to feel connected with me in a way that they couldn’t with some of the older leaders. I won’t say that God led me to get tattoos, but He did use them for His glory by allowing me to be more approachable to teens. I think having tats helped them to see that Christianity wasn’t all cardigans and pews.
I just want to take this time to thank everyone who comments on Jill’s blog, and JILL of course :), for my recent education. I have always been ardently pro-life, and compared to the average person, decently informed on pro-life issues, but you guys take it to a new level. In recent debates with pro-aborts, my mind has flown back to the words and ideas that I have read here and made the case for the unborn so much more compelling. So thank you, thank you, for all of your research and time spent educating yourself on every aspect of this life and death issue.
I will pass this information on to as many as I can.
My love and prayers are with you guys,
(esp. you xalisae)
Heather
Janet,
Considering the baby was delivered in one piece and severely burned, saline abortion was most likely the culprit. I don’t think that prostaglandin abortions leave the skin burned like that.
Posted by: Janet at April 18, 2010 3:11 PM
“I told her she had liberty to do whatever the LORD gave her grace to do.”
ken,
I don’t mean to offend, but I’m not sure I understand what that means.
————————————————–
Janet,
My daughter is over 21 but she is still living at home and she still sees me as having some accountability to me as her father.
From an early age my wife and I instilled in our children the understanding that they can hear God for themselves.
I believe our instruction as been proven true by their own individual experiences. When they were young I would tell them what I thought about what they wanted to do, but when they became adults I put the onus on them to find out for themselves what was pleasing to God.
Father God thru Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit communicates to us directly.
I have never heard HIS voice audibly, but I have heard HIM speak in English and in Spanish in my spirit.
But God is not limited to words when HE chooses to communicate with us. HE speaks in dreams and images and impressions and even touches us in our emotions.
I do not mean to be dodododo twilight zone.
God knows how to communicate with each of us individually and uniquely as HE see fit.
Grace to do. God gave Peter a Jew to go and socialize with uncircumcized Gentiles. Something which Peter’s experience and training and cultural/societal training prohibited.
Reading the narrative gives us no real experiental knowledge of how difficult it was for Peter to overcome those internal obstacles. It was probably easier for Peter to believe he could walk on water.
Through the dream/vision Peter received the grace to do that which he could not do before.
I hope that helps.
yor bro ken
Jill-
If you decide to raise money to run an ad on TV explaining to the American public in detail what these babies go through when they are killed I will contribute and pray that you have enough resources, assistance, and energy to undertake this project. And when you let them know what they do at the hospital that bears our Saviors name I hope you explain to them that this hospital is not a reflection of him but of their own lack of compassion.
Posted by: myrtle miller at April 18, 2010 4:23 PM
Could you please provide scripture and verse. Thank you. myrtle
——————————————————-
Isa 20:1-5
20:1 In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it — 2 at that time the Lord spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, “Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet.” And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.
3 Then the Lord said, “Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush, 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared — to Egypt’s shame.
NIV
kbhvac, I didn’t see anything wrong with either of the pictures you posted, or anything particularly out of the ordinary or even not mainstream. There’s nothing wrong with piercing, tats, odd hair colors, etc.
Posted by: myrtle miller at April 18, 2010 4:23 PM
Could you please provide scripture and verse. Thank you. myrtle
—————————————————-
Myrtle,
I may have confused this passage with the previous one, but somewhere in the dust covered archives of my memory I have some hazy memory that the ‘bared arm’ in this particular passage was referring to different appendage.
Maybe it’s that Italian gesture with the forearm I am of which I am thinking.
I will do a little more digging and delving and see what I can find.
Ezek 4:6-7
7 “Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it. NASU
yor bro ken
kbhvac, I didn’t see anything wrong with either of the pictures you posted, or anything particularly out of the ordinary or even not mainstream. There’s nothing wrong with piercing, tats, odd hair colors, etc.
Posted by: Less at April 18, 2010 7:30 PM
—————————————————–
Less,
Are you asking for ‘more’?
Your observations are correct about the CBS protesters complainging about the Tebow Superbowl ads. They are mainstream in appearance but as your recall their hysterical Henny Penny sky is falling overeaction to the news that the Tebows were going to do a commercial sponsored by Focus On The Family had them breaking out in hives.
That was hardly mainstream.
Most of Americans yawned and had another beer and ate another hot wing or gulped down a popper.
Abortion clinics did not go up in flames and the morgues were not filled to capacity with abortionists and their accomplices nor were the jails overflowing with bomb totin fundamentalist christian terrorists.
But if you insist I will peruse the web and find some poster girls for the ‘dead babies r us’ rent a mob.
yor bro ken
Oh the vagaries of translations and the incompetence of old men who have fat fingers.
This one is a little more to the point.
Isa 20:1-4 In the year that the commander came to Ashdod, when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him and he fought against Ashdod and captured it, 2 at that time
the Lord spoke through Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, “Go and loosen the sackcloth from your hips and take your shoes off your feet.” And he did so, going
naked and barefoot.
3 And the Lord said, “Even as My servant Isaiah has gone
naked and barefoot
three years as a sign and token against Egypt and Cush, 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away the captives of Egypt and the exiles of Cush, young and old,
naked and barefoot with buttocks uncovered,
to the shame of Egypt. NASU
yor bro ken
Ken-
Thanks for looking that up. Have you noticed with the Lord that he never provokes but when his people are treated poorly over a long period of time he always handles his business really really well. I know that your a believer by your writings and write from your heart but have you noticed how people take God’s actions out of context and fail to mention the atrocities that always precede his actions. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in 1987 and was so relieved to find out that my God was well able to defend me. I’ve been through persecutions that most Americans don’t experience and I’ve seen time and time again God vindicate me. That’s why I find your writings so refreshing people love to talk about the mercy of God but conveniently forget he is also a God of judgement.
xalisae,
I’m sorry if I offended you with my comments. I was just explaining the attitude I grew up with in the 70’s… a LONG time ago. My daughter will be able to choose for herself when she’s older. I was trying to be supportive of pro-lifers who have piercings, etc.; I guess I didn’t express myself very well.
ken,
Thanks. That makes perfect sense to me!
Actually, kbhvac, I loathed that ad as well, and refused to watch the super-bowl, in part, because of it. I participated in several campaigns against that ad.
So, that’s not really going to carry a lot of truck with me. Then again, perhaps I don’t judge people by appearances.
“forced childbearing changes you”
Abortion on demand and without apology!
A fetus is NOT a baby!
Women are NOT Incubators!
Abortion is NOT Murder!”
Next she will try to tell us communists aren’t murderers.
There’s nothing wrong with piercing, tats, odd hair colors, etc.
Posted by: Less at April 18, 2010 7:30 PM
I have often heard people say that they are glad that people have those decorations prominently displayed. It simplifies things.
Less, did you loathe the ad or did you loathe what you thought the ad would be? What was there to loathe in the actual ad?
Wow, hippie, what an incredibly shallow and judgmental thing to say.
Peg, I was actually mostly upset because the network which aired the aid had previously refused ads by Planned Parenthood, or other less conservative organizations, because they would be disruptive, which I think is fair. However, airing this ad right after they had refused the other ads is incredibly hypocritical. That was my primary.
Less may loathe disagreement. It is pretty typical. Many are obviously on one side or the other and don’t show much tendency to heterodoxy.
Wow, hippie, what an incredibly shallow and judgmental thing to say.
Posted by: Less at April 18, 2010 9:56 PM
He, he. Less, you crack me up.
Hey, Less, my son is 13 and I have him wear a button down dress shirt and tie every day to school even though there is no school requirement and the other boys don’t wear that. Can you think of something shallow and judgmental that some people might say about that?
Sure can, hippie, and I think what you’re doing to your kiddo is ridiculous. But not my business, and I don’t much care, to be honest. Your kid, your consequences, not mine. Judging people by their appearances is always wrong.
I guess if your going to suffer some persecution who better to suffer persecution for then unborn babies. I wasn’t sure what all the fuss was over with the Tebow ads so I googled it. How sad when a mom can’t say that she’s happy her son is alive. I think it’s really nice that Planned Parenthood keeps signing there name on everything so there will be some name recongnition when all the stuff they do in secret becomes public knowledge.
I think what you’re doing to your kiddo is ridiculous.
Posted by: Less at April 18, 2010 10:23 PM
Why?
He, he, he.
I should also say,
“Wow,” Less, “what an incredibly shallow and judgmental thing to say.”
He, he, he.
Hippie, did you not read the rest of my post? I said I didn’t care. It was your choice, not mine, and you can do whatever you want. You asked me what I thought, so I told you, but I really don’t care about you, or your son. You’re pixels on a blog I go to occasionally, what it comes down to it.
“I think it’s really nice that Planned Parenthood keeps signing there name on everything so there will be some name recongnition when all the stuff they do in secret becomes public knowledge.”
Posted by: myrtle miller at April 18, 2010 10:25 PM
Nah, like when they expose PP for deliberately targeting minorities, it increases support for PP, because some people are fine with targeting teen motherhood or minorities for reduction. Not people like Less, who think it is about women’s freedom or rights or some variation of that theme. Rather people who find abortion disgusting, and figure anyone unconscionable enough to kill their own offspring would also be a poor parent. Now before Less jumps in and accuses me of endorsing or promoting any of these views, let me say they are not my own, I am just relaying what I have seen people writing on some blogs. I am just being an observer. Since minorities abort at a higher rate, some support “choice” because of who is chosen.
For the record, I oppose all abortion because in no case is it the child at fault.
I don’t oppose contraception, but I do oppose the dishonesty surrounding it. Contraception often fails to protect against pregnancy and disease, and that is not emphasized enough. It seems the goal of getting women to use contraception is ahead of the goal of women understanding the risks. Women suffer from the current practices.
Hippie, did you not read the rest of my post? I said I didn’t care. It was your choice, not mine, and you can do whatever you want. You asked me what I thought, so I told you, but I really don’t care about you, or your son. You’re pixels on a blog I go to occasionally, what it comes down to it.
Posted by: Less at April 18, 2010 10:48 PM
Less, whether or not judging people by their appearances is always wrong, it is rational to believe people present themselves the way they wish to be seen. So while you dutifully toe the line by saying folks shouldn’t judge by appearance, you sidestep the more interesting and salient point that people know what others will think before they choose to decorate themselves or choose their kids’ school clothes.
Also, I can’t help but get tickled at your stereotypical knee jerk answers. However, I may not come off as lighthearted as I am about disagreement in general. I think it is both liberating and interesting to step back from ones own positions and play a little devil’s advocate.
So what do you think?
Is the heterodox born or made?
As heterodox refers to stepping away from the tradition or standard, I’d say I’m more a heterodox than you–particularly with our conversation on the other thread about traditional gender roles. I’m capable of playing devil’s advocate (and my position on abortion is particularly well considered), but I see no reason to. Commenting here is recreational–I’m not going to take the time to do the mental gymnastics required of me to fairly present the pro-life position.
Less…there are studies that show what you wear to school affects how you learn. So I think Hippie is looking out for the best interests of her son.
I went to a private school from kindergarten to 12th and we were not allowed to wear jeans. We had to “dress up”. They said if we wore “play clothes” (jeans) we would treat school with the same attitude that we treated Saturday morning cartoons.
You got all huffy that Jill would “judge” pro-aborts based on their appearances, and lambasted all of us for “judging” and then you turn around and take issue with Hippie dressing her son nicely for school…why? Because kids might tease him? So you are defending those kids at the school who “judge” based on appearances?
You make no sense. “You don’t care about” anyone…yeah, we can tell.
I think that, while we obviously form judgments about people based on appearance, when sharing those judgments or “profiling” as Jill initially said, it’s useful to consider how NECESSARY the judgments are. What point is conveyed by profiling people? Does it advance the message you’re trying to share, or detract from it?
What is lost by NOT publicly making such judgments? If someone is put in danger because I don’t want to risk looking judgmental, that’s not okay. I once had a laptop stolen out of the building I worked in, because I was too shy to loudly proclaim that a certain man looked out of place. That was a time when it would have been useful for me to state my judgments. Had I seen that man simply walking down the street, it would have been unnecessary for me to comment at all on his appearance, and thus my doing so would be rude and inappropriate.
When talking about abortion, how relevant is the appearance of people on EITHER SIDE to this discussion? What is gained by mentioning it? What is lost by not mentioning it? And what is lost by bringing it up at all? I see nothing to be gained by speculating about what pro-choicers or pro-lifers “might” or “will probably” look like. All it does is alienate people on both sides and unite people based on the wrong criteria (appearance versus belief). Now we’re debating whether tattoos and piercings are stupid or ugly or beautiful or whatever – and that doesn’t matter at all.
As heterodox refers to stepping away from the tradition or standard, I’d say I’m more a heterodox than you–particularly with our conversation on the other thread about traditional gender roles. I’m capable of playing devil’s advocate (and my position on abortion is particularly well considered), but I see no reason to. Commenting here is recreational–I’m not going to take the time to do the mental gymnastics required of me to fairly present the pro-life position.
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 12:52 AM
Less is the orthodox post modern type. No deviation from that group’s norms. Strict adherence to the standard. The prevailing wind (new tradition) is that women should go to college. Abortion has been legal for over 35 years. It is the standard or tradition at this point. People like Less are siding with convention, unwilling to take a second look and reevaluate based new info. Narrow minded and closed minded. In the 20th century that position was new, now it conventional. So at this point, saying men and women are equal is conventional not revolutionary. Saying marriage is useless is conventional thinking in some groups. Philip Longman is a heterodox. Atheist progressive that is opened minded enough to consider what the data show. He and other material rationalists may not reject abortion, women’s changed roles, the welfare state, but they can see the data coming in that sure shows that the liberal western democracy is threatening its own existence with its own policies and social trends.
Sydney, I don’t really send my son to school in dress shirts. It was a joke. I thought that was obvious. However, kids used to have to dress better for school. It was a social norm. Were there “consequences” for those parents who sent their kids in more casual attire? The implied idea that sending a kid to school in dress clothes would have any significant repercussions is pretty funny. Less calls it ridiculous without giving a reason. I prefer to call it eccentric. ; )
Less is a humorless caricature of left thinking. I am pretty far left so maybe it just irritates me to be on the same side as robot non thinkers who just repeat the line.
Recent quotes by Less:
“as I’m not Christian, it doesn’t concern me at all.”
“I won’t be inside anyone else’s body again, so I’m not concerned.”
“but I really don’t care about you, or your son”
“I said I didn’t care”
“Commenting here is recreational”
I’m starting to see a theme appear here with Less. I work with special needs/depressed individuals and we often see and hear this theme over and over of individuals not caring about anyone or anything, including themselves (although they usual deny this until they get help).
What usually helps is to get these folks to volunteer to help others thereby not only helping others who need it but in the process helping themselves since their world will no longer just be about what works for them.
What do you think Less? Someone here could probably set you up to help those less fortunate than yourself. You’d feel much better soon. Have you ever thought of adopting a special needs child? Your recreational time would be put to better use this way.
I’ll admit, I giggled at Jill’s description.
That said, hubs has a tattoo of an eagle and wants to get another one. He used to laugh that he wanted one with each of the kids’ names on it, but then he thought he might need to put at the bottom… “continued on next back…”
And, I actually want one myself, one of these days, on my back… a cross made of ivy with a small blossom for each of the children.
As for piercings, I had my ears pierced at 13, stopped wearing earrings by 18 and they’ve closed up. I told my own daughters that when they were adults they could do whatever they wanted in terms of piercings or tattoos, but nothing before. None of the girls even have their ears pierced. Nothing against it, but it can’t be “undone”… even if the holes close up they don’t go away entirely. I just want it to be an adult decision they make for themselves.
And I’ve also counseled them strongly against getting any nose-piercings for medical reasons. Nasal infections can spread dangerously and it just isn’t worth the risk. I’d far rather they get multiples on their ears or even a lip than in the nose. The nose can be a nasty, nasty place harboring all sorts of critters!
Sydney, I’m not judging her clothing choices because other kids will make fun of him, not at all. I know what insults would be hurled, and I think those kids are 100% in the wrong. However, I was engaged to a guy whose parents made him dress like that to school, with that attitude that you have towards it. He spent our entire relationship incapable of any sort of self-expression and unable to make a decision without his parents’ involvement. While he was dithering on about what his parents would think if we moved in together, I got fed up and left.
Thinking for your children to that degree, I believe, causes social paralysis. But, I could be wrong, hippie’s theoretical kid could be fine; regardless, I’d rather not take the chance.
I’ve never said I was an atheist, Hippie, just that I wasn’t Christian. That’s as far as I’ll go with regards to my religious beliefs, unless they specifically fit into the conversation, but I’m certainly not an atheist. As to me fitting in to the far left without too much concern, I’m not sure if that’s true or not, as I’ve never had the opportunity to test it.
Praxedes, I don’t like children, actually, unless they’re related to me. And, to be honest, I don’t have the patience for people with intellectual disabilities or special needs. I don’t dislike them, I just have no desire to work with them. Though I do volunteer—with several pro-choice agencies in the area.
I work, and spend much of my free time with my boyfriend, our friends or my family, all of whom I care deeply about, and occasionally get to visit his family, whom I also enjoy spending time with. My life really isn’t as empty or meaningless as you’re painting it to be. I just happen to like commenting on blogs.
Yes. Abortion changes you. once a woman becomes pregnant, she becomes a mother. If she has the baby, she is the mom of a living baby. If she aborts the baby, she is the mom of a dead baby. Simple really. And many of us agree that post partum depression can indeed happen to a mother after she gives birth. Why is it that so many women will deny that post abortion syndrome is just as real????
Praxedes, I don’t like children, actually, unless they’re related to me. And, to be honest, I don’t have the patience for people with intellectual disabilities or special needs. I don’t dislike them, I just have no desire to work with them. Though I do volunteer—with several pro-choice agencies in the area.
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 1:28 PM
Wow, wow, wow.
You don’t like children, you don’t like people with disabilities or special needs and the only charity work you can see yourself involved with is ensuring the right to kill children, people with disabilities and people with special needs (as long as they’re pre-born… or are you okay with euthanasia, too?)
And you wonder why we think your life is pretty sad and meaningless?
If you have never worked with a child with special needs and watched them accomplish, through sheer grit and determination, something that nobody really ever thought they could do, the person who is missing out is YOU.
If you look into the eyes of a child with Down’s Syndrome or other special needs and all you can see is the differences and NOT the joy, the love, the spirit… the person who is disabled is YOU.
To be so cold, so cut off from the human experience, so callous to life… what makes your heart so dead?
Elisabeth, I clarified IN THE NEXT SENTENCE that I don’t dislike people with special needs or disabilities—I just don’t have the patience for that sort of work, and as such, have never pursued it. Did you not read the post? I believe it takes a special sort of person to do that, and I am not that sort of person, therefore, I don’t seek it out. There’s no harm in knowing one’s own flaws.
I’m just not particularly interested in that sort of work, and not interested in children. There’s nothing wrong with that. I prefer I good conversation and a bottle of good red wine, maybe some crackers and cheese, to a night spent tucking kids in and reading them a story. There’s no value judgment, and one isn’t better than the other—they’re just different.
You wonder why people aren’t attracted to the pro-life movement—well, here it is. I don’t like kids and don’t volunteer to help those with special needs, so I’m a cold, dead person. That doesn’t sound judgmental to you?
” While he was dithering on about what his parents would think if we moved in together, I got fed up and left. ”
Sounds like his parents did everyone involved a favor.
As Praxedes pointed out, your posts belie your claim of a full and happy life.
At best, these posts, taken together, show a very shallow and selfish nature.
However, coupled with your only stated volunteer work being in the cause of killing the pre-born, cold and callous is an apt description.
Heaven forbid any human attachment interfere with your nights of wine and cheese. Especially any regarding someone with intellectual disabilities or special needs. Far easier to just claim “lack of patience” than to actually reach outside of a comfort zone and challenge yourself to grow. Much easier to lump all those people in as “outside my sphere” so that you can continue advocating for their death.
Wow, has any sort of debate ceased, and it’s become “ad hominem attack” day? Instead of attacking the argument, you’re attacking the person–absolutely not doing your side any sort of favors, and not bolstering your claims at all. I don’t belittle your choice to have children, as there’s nothing wrong with such a choice, just as there’s nothing wrong with the choice to not have children. Can you not challenge yourselves to think otherwise? Lauren, specifically, threw in a cheap shot that had nothing to do with the debate at hand, and was meant only as an insult.
I have a busy life, and would rather full my free time with things I enjoy, and that I feel benefit the world. The pro-choice work I’m involved in satisfies both of those qualifications for me, and I feel fulfilled by it. Ultimately, I’m the one answering for my life, and I enjoy my life, and how I spend my free time. You might not consider it worthy, but that’s not really something that bothers me, when it comes down to it.
Frankly, as you spend your time making catty comments on a blog that agrees only with your opinions and worldview, I’d consider I’m the only one here “stepping out of my comfort zone.”
No one has commented on you not having children.
What is being commented on is the fact that you consistently speak to what you “don’t care” about and that you demonstrate by your posts that the only thing outside of your own comfort and amusements that interests you is ensuring the death of pre-born children.
You are the one who stated pro-abortion that is your only volunteer work… that you do nothing else to aid women in need or in crisis other than to make sure they have the right to kill their child…
It is that attitude of many pro-abort advocates that is so heartless…
Don’t do anything to come alongside a woman and help her through a crisis… just try to sweep the crisis under the rug by murdering her baby.
“…Heaven forbid any human attachment interfere with your nights of wine and cheese….” How is that not a comment on having children, particularly when I referenced that image as a comparison to tucking children in?
I donate to women’s crisis centers, and donate clothes to women’s shelters, that sort of thing. I don’t do volunteer work there; as I said, my free time is limited. I advocate, however, for choice–because at the very least, every woman deserves that.
“Lauren, specifically, threw in a cheap shot that had nothing to do with the debate at hand, and was meant only as an insult. ”
No, it was meant in exactly the way I said it. It seems very clear that the two of you were not compatible in the long run, and his parents did everyone a favor by shining a light on that before you got married.
I don’t mean it as anything negative against you or him or his parents, just that sometimes things work out in such a way that it is better for everyone to learn these things before the wedding day.
“–because at the very least, every woman deserves that. ”
Wow. Choice to kill one’s children is the last thign a woman needs. I would say “at the very least every woman deserves food, housing, medical care, education…pretty much everything before abortion.”
I’m sure that’s exactly how you meant it, Lauren, and there was no cattiness there at all.
His parents were fine with the union; we all got along very well. However, there’s a point at which some autonomy is desired, and when it got to that point, his religious convictions, lack of political concerns and feelings towards future lifestyles (as well as his continued requests for me to return for church) really made the relationship unworkable.
“…Heaven forbid any human attachment interfere with your nights of wine and cheese….” How is that not a comment on having children, particularly when I referenced that image as a comparison to tucking children in?
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 4:00 PM
Hmmmm… nope, it says human attachment not, heaven forbid your reluctance to have children interfere with your nights of wine and cheese. Quite clearly stated.
Especially as it was directly followed by “Especially any regarding someone with intellectual disabilities or special needs. Far easier to just claim “lack of patience” than to actually reach outside of a comfort zone and challenge yourself to grow.”
That is very clearly a comment about human attachment especially as regards volunteering within the special needs community versus advocating for their death. (80% of babies with Down Syndrome are aborted.)
Nope, no cattiness.
It doesn’t matter that you all got along, my point was that his parents had obviously instilled certain values in that young man that were ultimately incompatable with continuing a relationship with you. That’s not a negative statement about anyone involved, it’s just a matter of fact.
Since these issues obviously impacted his character in ways you described, it was better for everyone that you found out before you were married.
His parent’s oversight caused him to question the direction of the relationship which allowed you all to realize that it would be better for everyone for you to separate.
Hope you don’t mind Lauren that I repeat your line to Less.
No offense Less, but after reading your last comment, it sure “Sounds like his parents did everyone involved a favor.” No catiness intended.
My mom tried to “shine the light” before my marriage to my now ex-husband. What the hell did she know? (:
Actually Less, I had the exact oppposite situation. I dated a guy in highschool whose parents LOVED me. His dad was an artist and even painted a picture of me in a picture of everyone in the family.
I knew for months that the relationship was not going anywhere, but it was really hard for me to break up with him because of how his parents felt about me.
Parents can definitely have an impact in their children’s relationships, one way or the other. It would have been better for everyone involved had his parents been less enthusiastic about our relationship and perhaps more gaurded of their son.
less, next time you are around a post abortive woman for any great legnth of time, observe her behavior!! I had many beautiful, caring, and good natured friends who had abortions. I thought nothing of it at the time. Their bodies/their choice. BUT, while there may have been relief for years to come, they all eventually ended up with their lives in shambles. I’m not talking about material things. I’m talking about their emotional status! Abortion is not good for women. Society ought to be able to offer women in crisis something better than a dead baby. And yes, I have also met many women who WANTED their abortions and wouldn’t hear of any other way out. However today they pay the price. The only women who find peace after abortion are women who accept Christ’s love and forgiveness. Many don’t know Christ. It breaks my heart! Had they known him prior to their abortions, they might be at peace with themselves today. Many of them don’t even know what’s eating them.
Elisabeth, I’m aware of the increased abortion rate for children with Down’s Syndrome, however I doubt it’s that high. Got a citation?
As to my relationship with my ex-fiance, it wasn’t about instilling values. It was about his absolute dependence upon his parents in a way that was wholly unhealthy, and frankly, I have no desire to fix someone up. I much prefer a relationship that’s healthy from the start.
So, Lauren, women deserves medical care, but not that wrought by Obama, education, but not about contraception….
Will have to use multiple posts to address this due to the 1 link rule:
This cites 92%: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/65500197/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
“About 90 percent of pregnant women who are given a Down syndrome diagnosis have chosen to have an abortion.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/us/09down.html
This cites 90%: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/72515826/abstract
Elisabeth, it’s not letting me see the link. Looks like it’s a log-in only web site, and you have cookies enabled on your browser. However, as I don’t have an account or cookies enabled, it’s not going to let me see.
Perhaps one of your other links could work? Otherwise, I could google it, particularly as you’ve made a good-faith effort to support your point.
Actually, Less, the number is even higher.
“An estimated 92 percent of all women who receive a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome choose to terminate their pregnancies, according to research reviewed by Dr. Brian Skotko, a pediatric geneticist at Children’s Hospital Boston. ”
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_ParentingResource/down-syndrome-births-drop-us-women-abort/story?id=8960803%5D
And yes, Less. Obama’s medical plan will not result in better coverage for at-risk women. Medicaid pay rates are being reduced, which will result in even fewer doctors for those women.
It’s amazing that when I say education you immediately go to sex. I meant reading, writing, math, ect. You really seem to have a one track mind.
Also, nothing you’ve said about your ex-fiance makes it sound as though he has an unhealthy relationship with them. It is perfectly reasonable for an 18 year old to seek his parents imput about decisions like marriage or moving in with another person. Even if he was overly reliant on his parent’s judgement, it just reinforces my point that the break up was beneficial for everyone involved. Perhaps he is better suited to a woman with more traditional values. Nothing wrong with that, but obviously not that man for you.
This one states 92%: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7746747.stm
You should be able to at least see the abstract… and the percentages are listed in the abstract.
Elisabeth, only the last link worked, unfortunately. That number is for the UK, do you have anything for the US?
Lauren, he was in his mid to late twenties. Not 18. Somehow, I don’t think that level of dependence is healthy for that age.
The other studies were for the US and were from medical journals, which is why I posted them. Most of the easily found materials are based upon these scientifically valid studies but are published by religious or other pro-life groups (because frankly, the pro-abort groups don’t see it as newsworthy) and would therefore be considered “invalid” by you or others.
Let me see if it will let me copy the abstracts.
Elisabeth, no worries, I’ve been doing google searches for the US specifically, and it seems to be about the same as UK. For further reference, on most subjects, you can go to wikipedia. The page itself isn’t a viable sources, but if there are footnotes, those are often scientific studies, recently published articles, that sort of thing, and there are links to publicly-accessible versions of the articles.
So, I stand corrected, the number is actually higher than 80%.
Okay, I’m just going to type the abstract. I’d type the whole article but as it is a part of a for-pay subscription I maintain to medical journals as a registered nurse, I don’t want to risk any copyright issues.
This is from the medical journal Prenatal Diagnosis, Volume 19, Issue 9
The article is titled: Termination rates after prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome, spina bifida, anencephaly, and Turner and Klinefelter syndromes: a systematic literature review
Authors: Caroline Mansfield, Suellen Hopfer, Theresa M. Marteau
Abstract: The aims of this systematic literature review are to estimate termination rates after prenatal diagnosis of one of five conditions: Down syndrome, spina bifida, anencephaly, and Turner and Klinefelter syndromes, and to determine the extent to which rates vary across conditions and with year of publication. Papers were included if they reported (i) numbers of prenatally diagnosed conditions that were terminated, (ii) at least five cases diagnosed with one of the five specified conditions, and (iii) were published between 1980 and 1998. 20 papers were found which met the inclusion criteria. Termination rates varied across conditions. They were highest following a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome (92 per cent; CI: 91 per cent to 93 per cent) and lowest following diagnosis of Klinefelter syndrome (58 per cent; CI: 50 per cent to 66 per cent).
This one I found very interesting:
American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology
Title: Prenatally diagnosed Down syndrome: Mothers who continued their pregnancies evaluate their health care providers.
Author: Brian G. Skotko, BS, Harvard Medical School
It’s a really riveting article, I’m going to put some of the points that caught my attention:
“Obstetricians often have little direct contact during their training with children who have developmental disabilities.”
“Thirteen percent reported that they ’emphasize’ the negative aspects of DS so that parents would favor a termination, 10% actively ‘urge’ parents to terminate”
(My note: WOW… that is 23%, nearly one quarter, of OBs who are to one degree or another pushing for termination of these children!)
“The majority of the respondents were scared and anxious after receiving the results of the triple screen and indicated that their obstetricians had neither explained DS before or after the test.”
“In regard to amniocentesis, 26.8% of them had received the results in person, and 71.0% had learned of the diagnosis without their partners present. The majority reported feeling anxious and scared. About half felt rushed or pressured into making a decision about continuing the pregnancy.”
“For the few mothers who felt positive about the experience, satisfaction was associated with providers who explained the results in an understandable manner that included discussion of the positive aspects of DS and with a higher maternal educational level.”
“Many of the mothers who responded to this survey never planned to terminate the pregnancy and were upset when their physicians provided detailed descriptions of pregnancy terminations without knowing whether they would like those options discussed.”
Ah, thanks, Elisabeth. I do appreciate you going out of your way to provide sources on this. Pay-for-subscription sites are a pain, and copyright law is pretty unclear on situations such as this.
Less, really… you need to expand your life experiences. No one who works with special needs children or adults, DS or other, comes away unchanged. There is a huge community of amazing people out there that you are depriving yourself of interacting with.
I firmly believe that children and adults with DS, as well as with other conditions, are placed here on this earth to change those of us who are so-called “normal”.
Believe me, it will not limit the life of a person with special needs that you were unwilling to venture into their world. It will limit YOUR life. It will not deprive them of joy… they see joy everywhere. It will deprive you of a joy you cannot at this moment even fathom.
I can guarantee very few things in life… but I can most definitely guarantee this: If you set aside your preconceived ideas of what you are and are not “capable” of or “interested in” and you spend time truly getting to know a variety of people of different ages with DS or other special needs diagnoses… you will be profoundly changed. You will look back upon the person you were before and you will know why those of us who are by choice or by reason of family situation involved in this community find your current situation cold, empty, and lacking. You will be richer, not in pocketbook, but in spirit.
I’ve interacted with DS people before, Elisabeth–a good friend was a special needs teacher–and didn’t find it fully of joy, or life changing at all. It was frustrating, and I came away frustrated. As I said, I didn’t enjoy it, and it wasn’t something I’m interested. I’m not a patient person, and I value conversation and intellectual stimulation. That’s just who I am. As such, I’m not particularly interested in spending time with those with DS, or getting to know them better.
I’m quite fond of my current situation, thanks.
Less, sorry I assumed that your ex-fiance was the same age as you and since you had said that you were engaged in highschool, I assumed you were talking about that relationship. I still stand by my statement that his parents did you guys both a favor, but obviously the dynamics are different between a 25 year old and an 18 year old and two 18 year olds.
On a different note, what disturbs me is that you seem perfectly content, and almost embrace, being vapid and selfish. It’s not a badge of honor. You claim that you have these negative qualities, but act like they can’t ever be changed. I was much less patient before having a child with special needs, but I wouldn’t brag about that fact, nor act as though I was better off in that state.
Life has a way of changing people. I really hope that you’ll remain open to being changed and not plant yourself in your current state forever.
Lauren, I wouldn’t consider myself selfish in the slightest. You may, but as I’m primarily concerned with my ability to live with myself, I remained not worried. As for being patient, well. I’ve never had patience, and while I’ve gotten better at waiting, that’s never a trait I’ll be particularly good at, if that makes sense. I accept that, and am okay with that.
I see no reason to force myself into situations that frustrate and annoy me so they might one day change me. If those situations happen organically, well, that’s fine, and I’ll deal with them as best as possible. However, I’m not going to, for example, go to a tea party just so I can learn to control my anger, or volunteer for a crisis pregnancy center just to test my resolve. That’s ridiculous.
I sent an email to Moonbeam asking the following questions:
Dear ms Sunsara,
If you by the virtue of your humanity possess ‘physical autonomy’ that must be respected by other humans, then what about the ‘physical autonomy’ of the human embryo/fetus?
Doesn’t the human embryo/fetus’ ‘physical autonomy’ have to be respected for the same reason?
yor bro ken
—————————————————
Here is a link that Joan Hirsch,
Assistant to Sunsara [Moonbeam] Taylor, provided for me in response to my questions:
http://revcom.us/a/1265/what-is-abortion.htm
Neither ms Tayor nor ms Hirsch have yet answered my ‘are you smarter than a 5th grader’ question:
“When your human mother was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus/incubator?”
I actually provided them with some additional information that would have assisted them in answering the question, but still no response.
Does anyone have the telephone number of a fifth grader?
yor bro ken
Lauren, I wouldn’t consider myself selfish in the slightest. You may, but as I’m primarily concerned with my ability to live with myself, I remained not worried.
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 7:07 PM
You are saying here:
1) I don’t think I’m selfish.
2) You might think I’m selfish.
3) I only care what I think so,
4) I’m not worried about being selfish.
Seriously? Um, yeah, that’s sort of the definition of selfish. Or, if you prefer, self-centered…. self-absorbed… egocentric? Take your pick.
Posted by: Less at April 18, 2010 9:23 PM
“Actually, kbhvac, I loathed that ad as well, and refused to watch the super-bowl, in part, because of it. I participated in several campaigns against that ad.”
“So, that’s not really going to carry a lot of truck with me. Then again, perhaps I don’t judge people by appearances.”
————————————————–
If I were going to make a 30 second ad intended to annoy pretentious pettys the format would somehing like this, as suggested by some babbling beauties, who had not yet seen the Tebow ad:
I would start out with a voice over in a female voice and at the same time fade in a picture of Stanley Ann Duham.
“I knew my son might grow up to be a bumbling buffoon of a president like Jimmmy Carter, but I chose to birth the boy anyway.”
I would simultaneously fade out Dunham’s photo and fade in a photo of Barrak Hussein Obama.
————————————————–
So you protested against an ad that you had not seen based soley on who sponsored it.
You were judging the book before you ever even saw the cover.
Surely you can see the obvious irony in your behavior.
Wait. I am getting a vision.
I am a testosterone poisoned male, a genetic mutation, a mistake of nature, devolved from the female, missing the essential limbic part of my brain so I cannot ever possibly ‘get it’ unless I submit to gender reassignment surgery, which includes castration, and having a suction canula rammed up my nose and having half my brain suctioned out.
you go girl!
yor bro ken
Elisabeth, I grew up on the internet. I learned very early on that basing one’s life and self-image off of what total strangers think is…counter productive. At best. Additionally, the pro-life commenters on this site tend to think pro-choice individuals as a whole are selfish at best, so forgive me if I treat it with the distain I treat most such blanket statements.
As to the ad, hypocrisy bothers me, what can I say? I’m not going to apologize for that. I understand CBS not wanting to run political ads, but if that’s the case, they shouldn’t run ALL political ads. This picking and choosing business is not okay.
There was nothing political in the ad, so it kind of makes that argument moot. Unless you think there is something political about a mom and a son loving each other…
And the word is disdain… and I haven’t made a blanket statement. I made a very specific statement based upon a very clear reading of your own words. If you don’t mind being selfish, well, that’s your choice. You’re the one missing out.
Less, I am not making a statement about pro-choicers as a group. I’m making a statement about you personally based on what you have written. You have spent the past few hours bragging about your lack of empathy and patience. Disdain for other humans, especially disabled humans, is not a badge of honor.
Elisabeth, we all know what that ad was about; don’t tell me the ad wasn’t political. It was sponsored by Focus on the Family, for goodness sake.
Ha, distain is also a word-it means to, literally, de-stain something. My spell check didn’t catch that, thanks. You took words that I put into a pro-life blog, where I am frequently, it seems, called a cold-hearted human being.
Less, you present yourself as a cold hearted human being. It isn’t a function of being pro-choice, it’s a function of being you. Perhaps you are perfectly lovely outside of this site, but here you go out of your way to tell us how little you care about other people.
There have been several pro-choicers over the years here who were perfectly lovely, even though we disagreed. Interestingly, most of them ended up becoming pro-life. Of course, their support of abortion came largely from not wanting to infringe on other’s rights, not because actual support of abortion. Perhaps that’s the difference.
Lauren, I’m not bragging about my patience. It’s just a thing that I am, and I’m not too concerned about it, because I don’t believe in attempting to change what I see as a fundamental part of my nature. I never said I don’t have empathy: I just said I don’t particularly care about the opinions of others on the internet.
I hate intolerance.
yor bro ken
I get along fine with people as long as they agreem with me and do what I tell them.
yor bro ken
I am absolutely sure there are no absolutes.
yor bro ken
I will buy breakfast if you will pay for it.
yor bro ken
Which came first the clucking flock of hens or the sky not falling?
yor bro ken
This just in:
Obama Speech Interrupted by Homosexual Rights Protesters
By Jordan Fabian – 04/19/10 09:44 PM ET
Even the rats are deserting the rat.
yor bro ken
“…because I don’t believe in attempting to change what I see as a fundamental part of my nature. ”
This is exactly what I’m talking about. You say that lack of patience is a fundamental part of your nature, which lets you off the hook for having to work on the skill. If all this impacted was you getting irritated in traffic, it might not be a problem. Instead, you use this lack of patience to justify irrational irritation towards those with disabilities.
Elisabeth, we all know what that ad was about; don’t tell me the ad wasn’t political. It was sponsored by Focus on the Family, for goodness sake.
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 9:02 PM
I don’t care if it was sponsored by a political party… the ad ITSELF was not political, which you would have known if you had seen it. As such, regardless of who was paying for it, CBS was not choosing one political statement over a differing one, it was choosing a non-political statement paid for by a group which some feel is political in nature. (That, in and of itself, is a matter of opinion.)
Well, I have some really Good News.
In the midst of this depraved, corrupt sin-sick world, (which seems to be getting worse by the minute) there is some really exciting stuff going on.
Jesus is getting His Bride ready for His return!
And that is Great News for sinners like me and Less and everyone else out there.
Every one of us has faults, we all fall short of what we were created to be, without Christ, we’re nothing.
And so, when you think about it, He’s given each of us a free will to either follow His example, and not live for ourselves and live for Him, or we can live for ourselves.
Speaking from experience, it’s way, way, way better to live for Him. First, He, the God of the Universe, adopts you into His Family, He becomes your Dad, and you become His son or daughter.
And God the Father is the Best Dad you could ever have.
Jesus becomes your Big Brother, and the Best Friend you could ever have.
And then He gives you His Spirit, which is totally awesome because He gives you the power to live for Him and not sin.
Everything has meaning and purpose. When you allow Christ to fill the void in your heart, He will beautify and fill every part of your life with His Glory, for His Glory,
if you’ll just let Him.
He is a Great and Mighty God.
Let’s do this planet.
Lauren, I don’t work with people who have disabilities. I am around no people who have disabilities. I don’t feel as though it’s particularly irrational. Would you have everyone in the world wholly comfortable with those with intellectual disabilities? Why is that necessary?
CBS has not previously sponsored ads by Planned Parenthood, though those ads were not political in nature. Heck, they don’t allow condom ads, and those aren’t political in nature. This represents a hypocrisy in their position that I feel is uncomfortable at best.
Would you have everyone in the world wholly comfortable with those with intellectual disabilities? Why is that necessary?
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 10:40 PM
DS is not an “intellectual disability”. It is a genetic abnormality and those who have it have a wide variety of mental capabilities.
We feel that all people are human beings regardless of whether they are “intellectual” enough to have what you would consider to be a decent conversation.
How is it NOT necessary to recognize the humanity of all human beings?
Of course they’re human, there’s no doubting that. But they often have diminished mental and intellectual capacities; there’s nothing incorrect or wrong with saying that.
I’m not refusing to recognizing humanity. I’m just saying I have no desire to go volunteer or anything along those lines.
No, you questioned why people need to be “comfortable” with people who have what you term “intellectual disabilities”.
The opposite of that would be to be “uncomfortable” around them. Why would one be uncomfortable around them if they recognize them as fully human and worthy of respect, dignity and love as any other human?
There’s a difference between being “uncomfortable” with someone and treating them as human. I’m uncomfortable around racists. Does that mean I don’t think they’re human? I’m uncomfortable with people who have Alzheimer’s. Does that mean I don’t think they’re human? Of course not, in both cases. They both deserve the best possible treatment from their loved ones, and are, in both cases, fully human.
My discomfort doesn’t have any thing to do with the humanity of the other individual.
Less would make a good gang-banger.
Less said,
“Praxedes, I don’t like children, actually, unless they’re related to me.”
if not “your” family then why should you care right Less? Less would turn on your family in a second too if served you.
Less said,
“Praxedes, I don’t like children, actually, unless they’re related to me.”
If not “your” family then why should you care right Less? Less, you would turn on your family in a second too if it served you.
What we don’t need in this world is more Less
Ah, Truthseeker, got anything relevant to say? Anything that adds to the debate, or any legitimate discussion?
Or is attacking a nameless, faceless stranger on the internet how you get your kicks?
Your discomfort, as you have stated, is due to them not being able to carry on a conversation that is intellectually stimulating enough for you.
I submit that it shows a shallowness of character to be unable to engage in worthwhile conversation with others no matter their level of functioning (and many with DS are very high functioning indeed).
Discounting their conversation based upon your subjective opinion of the worth of that conversation as compared to your obviously high opinion of your own intellectual prowess is a way of marginalizing the worth of those who are different than you.
Or do you require an ID check with appropriate IQ level listed before you will consider another person worthy of your time and consideration conversationally?
If so, I would encourage you to truly attend to the words of Einstein, no slouch in the IQ department himself…
“Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile.”
“I believe in standardizing automobiles, not human beings.”
“Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.”
“It is high time that the ideal of success should be replaced by the ideal of service.”
Elisabeth, I stated my discomfort was due to my own lack of patience, not that there wasn’t enough intellectually stimulating conversation for me. I value intellectually stimulating conversation, but that is not at all while I am discomfited. Were that true, I would miss out on the friendships of several individuals of my acquaintance. Yes, I do tend to gravitate towards people who can speak well, and who have opinions, but my discomfort with small children and those with intellectual disabilities stems from the same situation—my simple lack of patience with others.
I’m not sure, then, if the rest of your post is relevant. However, I will say that I disagree philosophically with Einstein with regards to several points, which I don’t think is a crime.
Elisabeth, I stated my discomfort was due to my own lack of patience, not that there wasn’t enough intellectually stimulating conversation for me.
Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 1:10 PM
It was frustrating, and I came away frustrated. As I said, I didn’t enjoy it, and it wasn’t something I’m interested. I’m not a patient person, and I value conversation and intellectual stimulation. That’s just who I am. As such, I’m not particularly interested in spending time with those with DS, or getting to know them better.
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 5:57 PM
Between these two posts it is obvious that the lack of patience stems directly from conversation that you feel isn’t intellectually stimulating enough… hence your impatience with it. Not worthy of your time, apparently.
You can dance around the fact all you want, but your posts make the point more clearly than you seem to want to admit… you hold yourself out as superior to those who you think cannot keep up with you intellectually. I say think, because often wisdom comes clothed not in grandiose verbosity but in simplicity unclouded by prejudice or hatred.
Which points cause you to disagree with Mr. Einstein… of the ones I listed, specifically?
As to Einstein, I don’t hold the ideal of servant leadership in particularly high esteem, as I find it often comes with much hypocrisy. The idea of helping people is great, but the idea of ‘helping people to help themselves’ is one that’s often rife with condescension; most of the self-professed “servant leaders” I’ve met are filled to the brim with false modesty and condescension.
Of course it was frustrating spending time with those with those with whom repetition is required, simple requests are not understood, and the natural frustration stemming from those situations was somehow “wrong.” I’m not patient, that’s how I am, and I don’t surround myself with those with whom I need be patient. I value that people with DS need to be around people who won’t be frustrated with something that is wholly not their fault, and who won’t be annoyed with them. Pairing them with someone like me would be unfair to both of us. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting that.
As to Einstein, I don’t hold the ideal of servant leadership in particularly high esteem, as I find it often comes with much hypocrisy. The idea of helping people is great, but the idea of ‘helping people to help themselves’ is one that’s often rife with condescension; most of the self-professed “servant leaders” I’ve met are filled to the brim with false modesty and condescension.
Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 1:28 PM
This says more about you and your mindset than it does about anyone else.
It’s easy to see how someone who feels that their highest and only duty to women in crisis is to assist them in murdering their pre-born child would find any other type of service “false”, because of an inability to comprehend the value of such service.
Do you consider Mother Theresa to have been filled to the brim with false modesty and condescension?
Elisabeth, I stated my discomfort was due to my own lack of patience, not that there wasn’t enough intellectually stimulating conversation for me.
Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 1:10 PM
Hilarious considering the amount of patience required of those interacting with Less.
Elisabeth, I didn’t know Mother Theresa personally, so I’m afraid I can’t attest to her character, though she did some beneficial things. I was speaking of those “servant leaders” who I’ve personally met—as I said in the post. Were you ignoring that bit, or did you just miss it?
I’ve never said I felt as though my highest duty to women is to assist them in reproductive freedoms. Women’s shelters, domestic violence lines, etc, are all equally important, as are rape-crisis lines, Take Back the Night, events like that. All of these are equally important. Again, I said that in an above post—did you miss that, or are you ignoring it?
Again, hippie, do you have anything relevant to add to the discussion, are do you, like truthseeker, get your kicks from attacking people on the internet?
I’ve never said I felt as though my highest duty to women is to assist them in reproductive freedoms. Women’s shelters, domestic violence lines, etc, are all equally important, as are rape-crisis lines, Take Back the Night, events like that. All of these are equally important. Again, I said that in an above post—did you miss that, or are you ignoring it? Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 2:08 PM
Neither missed it nor ignored it. You didn’t say it. This is the only post you made even close to it:
I donate to women’s crisis centers, and donate clothes to women’s shelters, that sort of thing. I don’t do volunteer work there; as I said, my free time is limited. I advocate, however, for choice–because at the very least, every woman deserves that.
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 4:00 PM
As for the other, you did indeed state that “most of the self-professed “servant leaders” I’ve met are filled to the brim with false modesty and condescension.” (Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 1:28 PM). However, in the SAME post you stated: “The idea of helping people is great, but the idea of ‘helping people to help themselves’ is one that’s often rife with condescension” which besmirches the concept of servant leadership even as an ideal. It is one thing to say that people often fall short of the ideal. You, rather, stated that “I don’t hold the ideal of servant leadership in particularly high esteem.”
Again, when you feel that the only effort you have to make in life is to ensure that pre-born children can be murdered, it is easy to see why you lack patience to deal with anyone you view as inferior (I mean, really, shouldn’t their mothers have just aborted them so you wouldn’t have to deal with their inability to articulate to your high standards?) or willingness to put forth effort to actually assist others, rather than just enable legalized murder.
I’ve never said I was an atheist, Hippie,
Posted by: Less at April 19, 2010 1:28 PM
I never said it either. I said Philip Longman was an atheist and an example of a heterodox. He is open minded despite his beliefs. He posses the capacity to challenge conventional thinking, even his own.
Just trying to be patient with Less’ repeated misreading of what I have written.
It’s difficult to see why you’re having trouble following the points I’m making, really. I’ve met a considerable amount of self-professed “servant leaders.” All of their work seemed to be built on false modesty and condescension, so while they did great things and made great progress, what they did was not, perhaps, well-intentioned. As such, I don’t hold the ideal in high regard, as it seems unobtainable. Does that make more sense?
Elisabeth, you’re really twisting my words here. I’ve never implied that those with lesser intellectual capacity should be aborted. All I said was I’m impatient, and don’t enjoy working with small children and those with DS because of it. What you’re extrapolating from that is, frankly, ridiculous.
I say again, the only opinion that should matter with regards to abortion is the pregnant woman’s. Mine is irrelevant; so is yours.
Again, hippie, do you have anything relevant to add to the discussion, are do you, like truthseeker, get your kicks from attacking people on the internet?
Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 2:08 PM
He, he.
Less, you don’t respond to the relevant things with either plausible arguments or data. You ignore the relevant points, direct questions etc. by simply saying that it’s wrong, misstating what was asked or with non sequitur comments. “I think therefore it’s true” is not a plausible argument, let alone data. As for the repeated demands for proof, which are silly, there is only evidence for most types of conjecture because of the many variables and vagaries in the social situations discussed here. So, most people make arguments based on evidence, data, common knowledge, etc. Although some use religious arguments, I don’t. However many who follow a religion believe that doing so is in the best interest of the follower and of others, as well as for society. They offer the arguments in the spirit of giving good advice that benefits everyone.
If anyone is attacking folks, it is Less.
A considerable “number” of servant leaders, Less, not “amount”. In addition, you may feel that the ideal is “unattainable”, however, that does not make the ideal itself false or hypocritical.
What you truly value is demonstrated by where you choose to spend your time. Whatever time you have not being spent upon your indulgence of supposedly high level discourse over wine and cheese is spent for one cause only, as per your own statements: the cause of abortion.
Therefore, the validity of your opinion of the motivations of servant leaders is at best highly suspect. The servant leadership movement is made up of mostly religious (not necessarily Christian) leaders who work hard within their own communities for causes they believe in that result in the betterment of others. By your own admission at 2:28pm, “they did great things and made great progress”.
On what basis should we accept your opinion that “their work seemed to be built on false modesty and condescension”. In fact, the very fact that you use the word “seemed” further reinforces that this is your opinion as an outsider, unwilling to do such work, looking in and judging those who are willing to do such work.
We have also demonstrated that the culture of abortion, which you yourself state is the only volunteer work you engage in, is responsible for the pre-birth murder of up to 92% of those diagnosed with Down Syndrome. These are people who make you uncomfortable due to their inability to articulate their thoughts quickly enough for your level of impatience. Since your volunteer work is responsible for the death of the vast majority of those you are uncomfortable with, my comments above require no stretch or twisting at all.
Rather, they are the logical conclusion of a life that you clearly state is dedicated only to your own personal satisfaction and the destruction of pre-born humans.
Less,
A hypocrite is a person who intentionally tries to deceive another.
A person who does not always live up to their own ideals is human.
Too often people use the former term when the latter applies.
Janet, I have no idea if they were intentionally attempting to deceive, however, they spoke in such a way that they looked much better than they actually did. I’m going with hypocrite, but I’m a pessimist.
Elisabeth, I do spend a lot of time advocating for reproductive choice. I’m not ashamed of that. I do believe it’s for the betterment of others. I’m sorry you don’t feel the same, but that’s something we’re not going to agree upon, is it? You find it despicable, I think it’s my highest calling. We could agree to disagree on it, or continue aimlessly and pointlessly arguing until literally no more comments can be posted here. Your choice.
I don’t wish death upon those with DS. I wish them happy, joy-filled lives. As I said, and you chose to ignore, I think they deserve caretakers and volunteers who are happy to work with them, and not doing so out of some misbegotten sense of wanting to improve their patience. There are people who are happy to work with those with DS, so let them do it.
Hippie, are you really arguing that facts and data are unnecessary for debate? You stated “assertive women don’t breed,” and refused to provide proof. How is that not “I think therefore it’s true?” I’m not going to engage in an argument based solely on conjecture. Solid proof is the foundation of any good argument; to believe otherwise belies your incompetence in debate.
Solid proof is the foundation of any good argument; to believe otherwise belies your incompetence in debate.
Posted by: Less at April 20, 2010 5:44 PM
I hope you realize that to belie means to give a false impression… so you just told her that it is a false impression of incompetence… therefore, you basically just called her competent for disagreeing with you.
Hurrfdurff, I meant to write competence. My fault; should have proof-read my comment before posting it.
Less, I thought the gangbanger analogy was spot on based upon the quote of you that I referenced. Maybe you should speak Less often.
And perhaps you should post fewer things that are wholly off-topic.