Aljazeera infiltrates Chinese hospital to report on macabre forced abortion of 8-mo-old baby
Somehow the story of the ongoing forced abortion of a Chinese couple’s 8-mo-old preborn son made it to the Internet last week, and Aljazeera picked it up:
There is the possibility that someone in the government, aware of their situation and sympathetic, quietly released information about them on a popular Chinese website which works in the same way Twitter does.
Government officials were forcing the mother to abort because the couple already had a daughter, and China, as we all know, only allows 1 child per family.
A reporter for Aljazeera infiltrated the hospital, met the wife, who was waiting to deliver her dead baby after Chinese officials had killed him by lethal injection, and got the husband to tell what had happened on camera in a van outside.
According to the Aljazeera report, dated October 20, this just happened. The pregnant mother was dragged from her home October 10.
Aside from its 2-minute news story, Aljazeera thought the story so compelling it also posted an 8-minute clip of the husband’s interview, which is simply horrible….
NPR picked up on the “heartrending” story. No surprise, a commenter supportive of population control thought extreme abortions like this are necessary:
Sounds pretty barbaric, “forced abortion.” Frank Luntz would call it “mandatory termination” or “prenatal control.” Whatever you call it, the sad fact is that it’s sometimes necessary in China because a family’s urge to reproduce represents what social psychologists call a social trap or what economists have talked about as the tragedy of the commons. Every culture will be grappling with the same problem soon. What’s good for me (more children) is ruinous to society as a whole.…
Whatever we think of mandatory abortion, the growth is unsustainable and will stop sooner or later. There are only 2 questions: How much damage will be done to the environment first, and will we do it or let nature do it?
There’s honesty, the crux of the population control argument: Kill or be killed.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Tis rather ironic that the network that doesn’t have an overt problem with sharia law “exposes” this atrocity.
The anti-humans are a sick bunch. Some people actually believe that procreation is some kind of social malady. The malady is in the population controllers and abortionists. As if what happens to women and their families in China weren’t bad enough, some people actually defend it. Here in America where women have freedom and opportunity, we seek out the same brutality for ourselves and pay for it with our own money.
When I was little I saw men walk on the moon. We all thought that space exploration and colonization was imminent. But the sexual revolution literally killed our space program. We’re lucky anything of it survived at all. But now, due to the lazy, greedy complacency of a whole lot of people, we are decades behind where our progress had been leading. Instead of reaching toward the stars, we have poured the corpses of tiny children into our landfills.
I hope this woman’s suffering was not in vain. I hope it wakes people up. My heart goes out to her and her family, and all the rest who have suffered the same. I look forward to the time when humanity has healed from the sickness that leads to elective abortion. I look forward to when abortion is some kind of distant legend our great grandchildren won’t even believe is true.
I am currently 8 months pregnant and this is horrifying. If the gov’t came and forcibly murdered my baby I would be traumatized for life. How could anyone recover from that? I know all about forced abortions and sterilizations in China and I know that women sometimes have to choose between abortion and a prison sentence, but to see this firsthand story about a baby who was only a couple weeks away from birth, is just devastating. I can’t imagine the agony of that family. And to have to give birth to a dead baby, murdered in cold blood, and then recover from childbirth without the comfort of a warm cuddly baby in your arms. And how is this going to traumatize the 10 yr. old sister who’s been waiting for her brother to be born and now has to be told that he was murdered?
“Every culture will be grappling with the same problem soon.”
Not so. Demographics prove the exact opposite. Within the next 50 years, worldwide populations are going to decrease at rapid rates. Why? Because the current birth rates of many countries are already below replacement level. Death rates are higher than birth rates and when the current middle-to-elderly generations pass away, the populations will shrink rapidly. The Population Bomb is a myth which demographics have now proven ludicrous.
China’s one-child policy is forced, but many other countries worldwide have willingly adopted the same policies. The pro-aborts have been aborting themselves to oblivion for the past 40 years and they will soon reap what they’ve sown. If we were wise, we would’ve let nature have her way instead of taking matters into our own hands. C.S. Lewis’ prophetic predictions in “The Abolition of Man” are coming true…and it’s all thanks to our so-called intelligentsia.
Did you see the bruises on her arms? How she must have fought for her baby son! I am just torn up with grief for that mom.
I have no words. I was sobbing the whole time and that monster of a commenter just pushes it over the edge.
for a society (China) that prefers males, this is surprising and not surprising at the same time…..
…and this is just ONE story that was made public. Animals don’t even do this. This is just beyond barbarism. Pray for these people.
“When I was little I saw men walk on the moon.”
It is amazing yet disheartening that humans can be so intelligent but yet so selfish.
I remember having a conversation with my sister when I was quite little. Grandma had called and my sister and I talked about how cool it would be to have a phone where we could see Grandma when we talked to her. I would have never guessed that we would have home computers someday.
How amazing is it that we can get humans to the moon and communicate across the world with people we have never met on our computers but we still can’t figure out how to stop the killing of innocent humans.
I can’t get this family off my mind.
Their crime???? A second child.
EVIL. EVIL. EVIL.
Sydney,
If that were my wife and child, my wife would not be the only one with bruises and injuries. There would be quite a few “officials” in the hospital, and I would be either severely injured or dead. I cannot imagine the anguish this man is feeling, the helplessness and hopelessness, as his wife was kidnapped and his child was killed.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to feel so frightened of my government, and I can’t imagine being so cold-hearted as to kill a fellow man’s child in such a brutal manner. And yet some people consider this to be “sometimes necessary”?!?
What heartless people. I can’t imagine how bad Sodom and Gomorrah must have been if we’re still standing.
Like Carla, I too can’t stop thinking about these people. At the rate we’re going in this country, this type of thing looms on the horizon.
Mike
October 21st, 2010 at 12:56 pm
At the rate we’re going in this country, this type of thing looms on the horizon.
In America? The birth rate is 2.06 in America but the replacement level is actually 2.1. The death rate is slightly higher than the birth rate. (In Canada the birth rate is only 1.5!) So, I can’t see a one-child policy on the horizon for America – it’s already enacted voluntarily by the pro-aborts. :/ What I do see on the horizon for both Canada and America is the potential for enforced euthanasia of the elderly. There simply aren’t enough workers to financially support the upcoming retirees. Taxes will have to be raised substantially – and/or – something will have to be done about elderly. … I fear the latter, because money is a root of all evil.
Love of money is the root of evil, but other than that I agree! Imagine the ‘soylent green’ buildings that would have lovely euphemistic names like “Elder Care Center” or “Grandparent’s Pavillion.” I am afraid for my own future.
I just wrote this on yesterday’s quote thread but it bears repeating:
I can’t help but notice that there was no call to wear a color today to protest the bullying of pregnant Chinese women.
Where is the feminist outrage over the violation of this woman’s right to choice? Their silence is deafeningly loud. Oh, I forgot, only abortion is considered a choice. Giving birth is not a legitimate choice to those idiots.
This thread will be pretty quiet, Ceecee. Except for the commenters who know barbarism when they see it!
haha Yes, typo there. I definitely meant the love of money, not simply money. :)
Euthanasia is gaining in popularity and acceptance worldwide. It is marketed/promoted as the merciful thing to do, and this is the tactic (counterfeit compassion) that will eventually get it legalized in Canada and America. It’s already legal in areas of Europe and “Swiss Suicide Tourism” is becoming more widely known and sought. Suicide clinics are a growing business, very lucrative; just like abortion. There’s a lot of money to be made.
God will not be mocked. In Romans 2 we see how He manifests His wrath, He abandons the recalcitrant to their own perversions. Every society that has embraced this monstrosity is now suffering the consequences of the narcissism and faithlessness that have given rise to abortion.
China will not escape the violence that comes with deadening human conscience, and will suffer proportionately. We’re in for quite a ride.
Right, Bekah! Killing is easy, you don’t need any malpractice insurance because fail is win. Ugh!
I asked this on another thread once, but I still wonder: Did all the push to euthanize and sterilize animals soften us up for the acceptance of human murder?
Gerard, I am also reminded of Job. In it, clearly God gives the devil power to make Job ill and power to take away material gain, but God does not let the devil have power over Job’s life or death. Humans can murder, but the devil cannot. In order to murder, the devil needs to influence human hands.
Feminists do speak out against it. Hillary Clinton has been particularly vocal against state control of female reproductive capacity: http://www.womensrightswithoutfrontiers.org/index.php?nav=hillary_clinton
And from “On The Issues”:
“I went to China in 1995 and spoke out against the Chinese government’s one child policy, which led to forced abortions and forced sterilization because I believed that we needed to bear witness against what was an intrusive, abusive, dehumanizing effort to dictate how women and men would proceed with respect to the children they wished to have.
And then shortly after that, I was in Romania and there I met women who had been subjected to the Communist regime of the 1970s and ‘80s where they were essentially forced to bear as many children as possible for the good of the state. And where abortion was criminalized and women were literally forced to have physical exams and followed by the secret police and so many children were abandoned and left to the orphanages that, unfortunately, led to an AIDS epidemic.”
ninek
October 21st, 2010 at 3:20 pm
I asked this on another thread once, but I still wonder: Did all the push to euthanize and sterilize animals soften us up for the acceptance of human murder?
I would say so, yes. It’s something I’ve thought about/wrestled with quite a few times over the years. It especially became an issue catching my attention about two years ago when my parents were considering putting their dog to sleep because of her bad habit of peeing on the carpet. I felt it would be morally wrong to kill a dog just for the sake of your carpets! In the end, they didn’t, but less than a year later, they had her put down for reasons of age-related poor health. Now, is that any more acceptable than the former? I’m not convinced. At the end of the day, I’m simply not comfortable with it – I can’t help but think it’s a hypocritical double standard to euthanize animals in the name of mercy while condemning the euthanasia of human beings. And now the scales are really tipping in the wrong direction. Those who are on the fence will eventually agree that euthanasia of the elderly/suffering is merciful and compassionate. Just like those on the fence about abortion call themselves prochoice because of the hard cases; it’s a false sense of compassion/mercy. The devil works best when he exploits our virtues.
This is so sad.
May the Lord have mercy on them.
Ninek,
I think Margaret Sanger pushed her eugenic agenda quite well without using the suffering of animals to do it.
We have elevated the suffering of animals over babies.
Yes Megan, I am sure Hillary is just OUTRAGED when she is only too glad to receive donations from the Chinese. pulease.
Yet another example of the lack of human rights in China. Their one child policy hasn’t been as successsful as they present it as being and a similar outcome probably would have been achieved through propaganda campaigns explaining to the populace why it would be best to reduce the birth rate.
Enforced abortions are no way to achieve any outcome. Too many nations bend over backwards to appease the Chinese.
I was just about to post a comment when hold the presses: Cranium! I agree with most of your comment. Wow, I’ve agreed with Biggz twice and now you once. If Joan gets on here and starts making sense I’m inviting all of you to lunch to celebrate.
Cranium,
Hi! How are you?
I agree with most of your comment. I’m becoming increasingly hesitant to speak out on global affairs, largely because for the first time I realized that, even if unintentionally, commentaries might come across as ethnocentric. I was thinking about this as I realized (it was a slow day…) that some of my thoughts on China are a little ethnocentric. And I hate ethnocentrism so I’m at a loss for a solution.
For example, a lot of the abortions that happen in China happen on girls. This has, without doubt, led to huge problems with the gender ration, aside from the fact that women’s rights are being violated. This isn’t the only place where this happens. But say in China, if you can only have one child; a lot of abortions happen on girls so that that one child is a boy. This happens in India, from what I’ve read, too. Then there’s also this issue: so we want to reduce abortion, we use birth control? Right? Yup.
But birth control is bad in some cultures- people take condoms to Africa to try and reduce abortions, maternal death, and HIV/AIDS, but this is highly inappropriate in many African cultures, especially talking about in our Western way of speaking: doctors from the West drag the birth control out to Africa, instruct men and women on how to use it (often in the same room, according to my teacher- and that is hugely, hugely wrong by many of these cultures) and sometimes very Western ideas get tossed in with this- for example, in our culture, women are told to carry around condoms in their bag and make sure that “You Man Puts It On.” This just doesn’t happen in many of these cultures. So here’s the rub for me: I try and find a balance between women’s rights and cultural understanding. That where it’s hardest, is women’s rights.
Any thoughts? And do you know a lot about the status of women in China, both historically and under the current Chinese government?
Fine thanks Vannah, hope you are too.
While we must be alert to racism etc., it has become easy to fall into the trap of being unable to say things because of the risks of being labelled certain ways.
Some things are driven by ethnicity, others by politics or creed. The dilemma is discerning the driving forces and addressing them appropriately. In the case of China, I think it’s largely their political system, underpinned by their ‘ethnic’ history and approach to various matters in life.
There is not a singlar solution to all the ‘ills’ of places like Africa and India. We must acknowledge that other nations do have cultures and mindsets vastly different to our own. That does not preclude making them realize they may need to make certain ‘adjustments’ if they wish to be accepted on the world stage. Why would we do business with a culture we find offensive to our own?
It’s all a matter of ‘balance’ – which is really a ghastly word when applied to interferring in other countries!
I know very little about the status of women in China.
some African countries DO NOT WANT condoms, Vannah. They need ways to get clean water, medicines against diseases that we don’t have as common here (like Malaria) and food. They don’t want or need rubber latex devices. At least one African country has reduced the HIV/AIDS rate by using the A.B.C method: Abstinence, Be faithful, Condoms as a last resort.
I’ll say it again about this China story: I don’t get it….I thought I read once that if a family had a girl first, they were given “permission” to have a second child. This couple’s 1st was a girl….but doesn’t China want more males (though they have an uneven balance already) since they prefer males? This baby was a boy!
There has to be more to this story then we know.
Communist China is a humanist paradise.
Humanism’s first fruits are death and destruction.
It is encouraging to see that the cranius maximus can still be shocked by barbarism even if it is for the wrong reasons.
The feministas don’t even pretend to be bothered by the pregnant woman’s physical autonomy or will being violated by the ‘state’. [I attribute this deafening silence to latent bigotry and elitism.]
If you worship the ‘state’ it is sacrilegious to question, much less criticize, it’s actions.
The ‘god’ willl not brook open insubordination or even the silent refusal to openly bless it’s barbarism.
Liz, I think they have to ask permission of the government first before they know if they’re allowed to have a 2nd child. Wonder if they didn’t fill out the right paperwork. Or rather, wonder if they didn’t have the $$ to bribe the right people. :(
You’re right Kel. From what I have read over the years, if people have a second child they lose benefits and sometimes even their jobs. Totalitarianism is bad in any guise.
‘The ‘god’ willl not brook open insubordination or even the silent refusal to openly bless it’s barbarism.’ – hm, that sounds familiar. Lets take a look at history through the ages, even up to today.
Or rather, wonder if they didn’t have the $$ to bribe the right people.
I think you’re right Kel. The father kept saying in the video that he begged the officials to let him “find a solution.” I kept thinking that this was probably referring to a bribe, but he couldn’t get the money together for one. (I didn’t watch the video all the way to the end, so maybe he actually mentioned it directly later on). In so many corrupt tyrannical governments, local officials become a force unto themselves, so they were probably using the threats hoping to extort money, and eventually followed through on them. Just horrible beyond belief.
An illegal pregnancy and a legal abortion?
An illegal child and a legal killing?
Oh my, this government is playing God!
What’s just as bad, to me, is that we (the USA) are China’s servant. “The servant is borrower to the lender”, and they loaned us the money for the stimulus checks we all got a couple of years ago; there’s no telling what else we owe them. We could be in real trouble if they ever dun us for payment.
Lord, have mercy on us all.
Quoting from the article:
Whatever you call it, the sad fact is that it’s sometimes necessary in China because a family’s urge to reproduce represents what social psychologists call a social trap or what economists have talked about as the tragedy of the commons.
WOW. What “social psychologist” calls a family’s urge to reproduce a “social trap”?
This sounds like only “un-commons” are allowed to fulfill their desire to reproduce — which, I presume, refers to the elite.
This thinking is the real tragedy. God help us.
God will not be mocked. In Romans 2 we see how He manifests His wrath, He abandons the recalcitrant to their own perversions.
Well said, Gerard — very well said. Terribly true.
We have elevated the suffering of animals over babies.
So terribly true, Carla. It is ridiculously ironic that there are laws against doing to animals what is routinely done to babies in the womb.
Too many nations bend over backwards to appease the Chinese.
cranium, there is something on which we agree! Stop the presses! ;)
ninek, I just now saw your comment to cranium, which is so similar to the one I just made:
“I was just about to post a comment when hold the presses: Cranium!”
GMTA. ;)
And do you know a lot about the status of women in China, both historically and under the current Chinese government?
Vannah, this wasn’t addressed to me, but I do know something of this. For many years (centuries?) in China, baby girls have been devalued, were even thrown in ditches to die — Ruth Graham, who grew up into China, saw that firsthand, as did other Americans who were there. Twins were also so rudely abandoned; IIRC, that was due to a superstition about twins’ births being ‘unlucky’.
Also, girls and women had their feet bound for years (centuries?) because Chinese men thought short, tiny feet were beautiful. Of course, this practice caused extreme pain and suffering.
A Christian missionary by the name of Gladys Aylward was able to put a stop to it. Her amazing story is told in several biographies, the most interesting (to me) being The Little Woman (she was very small in stature), and a Hollywood movie, called The Inn of the Sixth Happiness, loosely based on the book, was made in the late ’50s. Ingrid Bergman, a big star at the time, portrayed her in that movie.
Communist China is a humanist paradise. Humanism’s first fruits are death and destruction.
ITA.
A Christian missionary by the name of Gladys Aylward was able to put a stop to it.
We’ll be reading about her this year in our homeschool class. Looking forward to it!
Author: Claire
Comment:
<em>”I fear the latter, because money is a root of all evil.”
Mike, while I agree with the rest of your post (it was very well-articulated and terribly true), I would like to make a slight (but important) correction here, if you don’t mind:
The Bible says the <strong>love </strong>of money is the root of all evil. Not money itself, which is basically a tool to be used by people, either wisely or unwisely.</em>
_________________________________________________
Hi Claire :) That was actually my comment. T’was just a typo. I meant to say the love of money but by the time I noticed, it was too late to edit my post. :)
So……WHAT CAN WE DO??
Helpless is not a feeling I appreciate!! How can I help these women? What can I do? What is the answer to this barbarism?? I am still so sickened.
This offends our western, liberal sensibilities. It’s only natural that it does, of course. However, we should also be mindful of the huge gulf that exists between what is right and acceptable in western societies and what is right and acceptable in Chinese society, and the factors that inform these differences. The social and demographic situation in China is unlike anything a western observer could even conceive. Literally one quarter of the world’s population lives in China, a direct result of traditional Chinese norms that emphasize large immediate families for agricultural and social reasons. Without robust mechanisms for population control, the size of the population would spiral out of control and the situation would become untenable. Forced abortion and sterilization is one of these mechanisms. You can argue about the ethical quandaries that these things imply, but they’re serving an essential interest of Chinese society. As for the woman herself, she lives there and she knows the law, and if she had abided by the law, this unfortunate incident wouldn’t have happened.
Joan,
Try some “I” statements.
I feel
I think
I believe
I’m sickened
So the crime again is pregnancy, Joan. And you are fine with how this woman was treated because she knew the law and it’s all her fault. Nice.
It is barbaric. It is evil. You are fine with that.
PS Your comment chills me to the bone.
Okay, here’s a few: I don’t think you should cast aspersions on my character by implying that I think this is “fine” simply because I am trying to provide some context. I don’t think you really grasp the demographic situation in China.
And if my comment “chills you to the bone”, it should, in the same way that looking at the Chernobyl disaster chills people who are concerned with safe nuclear energy, in a “that could have been us” sort of way. The example of China should be instructive to us. The Chinese people were unable or unwilling to change their breeding habits on their own and the government had to step in and take charge of things to prevent it from becoming a serious problem. By contrast, western societies have voluntarily stabilized their population growth rates, and so things like mandatory abortion are unnecessary.
joan
October 22nd, 2010 at 11:07 am
“I don’t think you really grasp the demographic situation in China.”
Joan, I’m afraid you are the one who clearly doesn’t grasp the demographic situation in China.
Consider these startling statistics and demographics:
“According to projections from the United Nations’ Population Division, -China’s population will peak at 1.458 billion in 2030. But then it will begin shrinking. By 2050, China will be down to 1.408 billion and losing 20 million people every five years.”
You’re thinking, “good, the one-child policy worked,” right? Well, here’s where it all goes haywire:
“At the same time, the average age in China will rise dramatically. In 2005, China’s median age was 32. By 2050, it will be 45, and a quarter of the Chinese population will be over the age of 65. The government’s pension system is almost nonexistent, and One-Child has eliminated the traditional support system of the extended family . . . China will have 330 million senior citizens with no one to care for them and no way to pay for their upkeep. It is, Eberstadt observed, ‘a slow-motion humanitarian tragedy already underway.’
“By 2050, the age structure in China will be such that there are only 1.6 workers—today the country has 5.4—to support each retiree. The government will be forced to either: (1) substantially cut spending (in areas such as defense and public works) in order to shift resources to care for the elderly or (2) impose radically higher tax burdens on younger workers. The first option risks China’s international and military ambitions; the second risks revolution. …
“Populations increase even as fertility rates collapse, until the last above-replacement generation dies, after which the population begins contracting. The rate of contraction speeds up as each generation passes. No society has ever experienced prosperity in the wake of contracting population.”
Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/america%E2%80%99s-one-child-policy?page=1
I haven’t even touched on China’s current male-to-female ratio crisis. Prostitution and rape are out of control thanks to China’s one-child policy. And this is only the tip of the iceberg they are cruising headlong for.
joan
October 22nd, 2010 at 11:19 am
The example of China should be instructive to us. The Chinese people were unable or unwilling to change their breeding habits on their own and the government had to step in and take charge of things to prevent it from becoming a serious problem. By contrast, western societies have voluntarily stabilized their population growth rates, and so things like mandatory abortion are unnecessary.
You don’t seem to have any grasp of the demographic situation in America, Canada or Europe either.
Here are some stats:
“Of America’s major demographic groups, only Hispanics are above replacement, with a TFR of 2.3.”
“Today there are 26.6 million legal immigrants living in America and roughly 11.3 million illegals. We need these workers to prop up the entitlement programs we’re no longer having enough babies to fund. In order to keep Social Security and Medicare running, we need a stable ratio of workers to retirees. If we were to keep the ratio at the present level of three workers for every retiree—already lower than it has ever been—America would need to add 44.9 million new immigrants between 2025 and 2035. If we wanted to keep the ratio at 5.2 workers for every retiree—about what it was in 1960, before the collapse of our fertility rate—we’d need to import 10.8 million immigrants every year until 2050. At which point the United States would have 1.1 billion people, 73 percent of whom would be the descendants of recent immigrants. …
“As demographer Phillip Longman notes, ‘such a flow would require the equivalent of building another New York City every ten months or so.’ ”
“The United Nations Population Division’s projection of our demographic future makes for stark reading. Native fertility rates are so low that without a continual influx of immigrants to stave off population decline, our population will shrink from 308 million to 290 million by 2050.
“Our challenge is to balance three needs: (1) a stable population, (2) a plausible ratio of workers-to-retirees, and (3) a manageable number of immigrants. Yet, for instance, to keep the worker-support ratio at high levels would require, as we saw earlier, gargantuan levels of immigration. Keeping immigration at a reasonable level (the U.N. uses 760,000 immigrants a year as a baseline) would mean that our population would increase to 349 million in 2050, but that our worker-support ratio would be cut in half. If we cut off immigration altogether the worker-support ratio would be even lower, and in addition, we’d face rapid population decline.
“The simplest answer is for Americans to have more babies.”
Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/america%E2%80%99s-one-child-policy?page=3
See, here’s the thing: people like joan really ARE pro-abortion. They’re not actually pro-choice. This Chinese woman is a victim of a brutal totalitarian regime and even pro-aborts like cranium understand that. (We agree on something, cranium.) But I guess, joan, those folks in Tiananmen Square deserved what they got, too. Brought it on themselves. They should’ve followed the law and none of that massacre would’ve ever happened, right? How dare they try to act like free human beings.
And people like joan have a “solution” to the problem of too many old people. Euthanasia. “The Giver” may be a work of fiction, but… well, is it, really?
I guess it is beyond me that someone would watch that video, see those bruises on this woman’s arms, see that pregnant belly carrying her now dead son, listen to a helpless father and say
She brought it on herself.
Evil. Evil. Evil.
Focus Joan. Not Chernobyl. China.
“people like joan really ARE pro-abortion.”
I think this is a good point, Kel. I believe yesterday we even saw Megan comment on what a horrible thing the China forced abortion is. From the pro-choice POV, China has taken away a woman’s right to choose, whether for or against abortion, and that is always and everywhere wrong, regardless of culture. Indeed, pro-choicers should be outraged. I wonder if joan would agree with abortion being outlawed here in the US if we had the right kind of culture for it and were extremely underpopulated…
As for the woman herself, she lives there and she knows the law, and if she had abided by the law, this unfortunate incident wouldn’t have happened.
Well, I’m relieved I don’t have to buy everyone lunch, you know, with the holidays looming ahead and needing to watch the budget. Thanks Joan, I’m just going to go have some Top Ramen now. Cranium, I would love to buy you a sammich someday!
Good point, Cranium, I didn’t watch the Olympics in China because their human rights violations make me sick!
You’re right, it is possible to manage population growth non-coercively. Please see this article about Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran The program did include contraception, but didn’t rely on forced abortions. In fact, Iran’s birthrate is so low that if the trend continues they will be below the replacement figure of 2.1.
However, the best and most permanent solution to managing population (I don’t like the word “control” because it implies coercion) is to increase educational and social opportunities for women and improve the country’s economy. It’s a well-known fact that educated women have fewer children than those who have less opportunties (as some have pointed out, this can work both ways; there’s a “birth dearth” in many Western nations). And I’m not talking about doctorates — give women in developing countries small grants to own businesses, the opportunity to at least finish primary school and get a trade, which many girls and women don’t do, and society will be changed for the better. Remember — we hold up half the sky! ;-)
phillymiss
October 22nd, 2010 at 1:22 pm
In fact, Iran’s birthrate is so low that if the trend continues they will be below the replacement figure of 2.1.
This is not a good thing. No country can sustain a death rate higher than its birth rate. The eventual result will be extreme poverty. :/
It’s a well-known fact that educated women have fewer children than those who have less opportunties (as some have pointed out, this can work both ways; there’s a “birth dearth” in many Western nations).
I would not say this is a good thing either, especially considering these educated women have fewer children because of the combination of abortion and “family planning,” not simply family planning. They plan for one child and then abort any accidental babies along the way. Less educated women have more children. The problem with this is that in time the gap between rich and poor becomes wider and wider. There are more impoverished children who will not receive a proper education vs. less rich children who will receive an education. The rich and educated are not replacing themselves and therefore, the population that is growing, is the uneducated and impoverished population! :/ Again, no country can sustain a death rate higher than its birth rate. The end result is a collapsed economy and extreme poverty.
And I’m not talking about doctorates — give women in developing countries small grants to own businesses, the opportunity to at least finish primary school and get a trade, which many girls and women don’t do, and society will be changed for the better. Remember — we hold up half the sky!
Now this has advantages for reasons entirely different than family planning and so-called population control. This helps to reduce poverty and malnutrition. However, if these women cease to have enough children to replace themselves and their spouse, the pull to poverty increases again over time as the population ages and then plummets without enough working class to support its elderly.
Educated women need to have more children, not less. And uneducated women need more access to education so that they too can raise healthier children.
“we should also be mindful of the huge gulf that exists between what is right and acceptable in western societies and what is right and acceptable in Chinese society.”
Cultural relativism is a completely discredited ideology.
“As for the woman herself, she lives there and she knows the law, and if she had abided by the law, this unfortunate incident wouldn’t have happened.”
So what, exactly? She should never have sex with her husband? Why are you threatened by women’s sexuality/hate women?
Joan, you claim to be a Christian so if indeed you are you would know that right is always right and wrong is always wrong. William Penn made a great quote stating that (sorry, I’m a Pense girl!)
If its wrong in America its wrong in China. God’s moral laws apply to the whole of the Earth because after all He created it all. If its wrong for me to kill you in the US and we took a trip to China together it would not suddenly be morally okay for me to stab you in the back and say “Well, we’re in the Orient! It doesn’t offend anyone’s sensibilities here to kill Joan.” What utter poppycock and you know it.
What a cold heart you have Joan to blame the parents. To have no sadness for them and no empathy for that poor murdered baby boy. You are cold-hearted. Ugh.
Bekah, I did mention the “birth dearth” in my post. I understand your points; I was just trying to illustrate that draconian methods aren’t necessary in order to stabilize population rates.
Why would we do business with a culture we find offensive to our own?
Cranium, try telling that to our government, which plans on selling millions of arms to Saudi Arabia, which has a terrible human rights record. http://topnews360.tmcnet.com/topics/associated-press/articles/2010/10/22/110864-us-sell-60-billion-advanced-arms-saudi.htm
However, we should also be mindful of the huge gulf that exists between what is right and acceptable in western societies and what is right and acceptable in Chinese society, and the factors that inform these differences
Joan, perhaps we should substitute “African and Middle East societies”for “Chinese society” in your statement. Then all those pesky folks that think it’s wrong to slice up little girls’ gentitals in the name of “culture” (sometimes killing them in the process) can just shut up, go home, and fuhgeddaboutit.
And there are many, many people in China who do not find forced abortion “right” or “acceptable.” Some have even gone to jail for their beliefs.
This offends our western, liberal sensibilities. It’s only natural that it does, of course. However, we should also be mindful of the huge gulf that exists between what is right and acceptable in western societies and what is right and acceptable in Chinese society, and the factors that inform these differences.
Joan, you have hit on a basic, foundational truth here that many people don’t stop to consider: Different nations and cultures have different standards of truth. Why is that true? Every nation’s laws are based on its leaders’ accepted standard of truth. Whatever standard of truth is believed and adopted by its leaders, that is the basis for its laws. And of course the laws affect all the people of that land.
China is a Communist nation, of course; it has been ruled by a Communist goverment since the late 1940s. So its laws are based upon a God-less standard of truth which deliberately excludes God’s moral law — which is why the huge gulf you mentioned exists. This is why China has infringed so severely on human rights during all these years.
Kel is exactly right when she compares this violation of human rights to what we saw at Tiananmen Square in 1989 — a callous government with no regard for its citizens, to the point of deliberately killing those who stand in their way by taking a stand for basic human rights.
Joan, if you are indeed a Christian, why does this callous disregard for human life not bother you at all? And why do you seem to have adopted the same attitude? Do you truly believe that the Lord has this attitude? If so, why?
And there are many, many people in China who do not find forced abortion “right” or “acceptable.” Some have even gone to jail for their beliefs.
This is absolutely accurate, phillymiss. Many people in China have been marginalized, persecuted, tortured, sent to ‘work camps’, and even killed for daring to speak up and stand up for what is right — for years.
Sydney, I too am a William Penn fan. This quote of his often comes to mind:
Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.
“I’m becoming increasingly hesitant to speak out on global affairs, largely because for the first time I realized that, even if unintentionally, commentaries might come across as ethnocentric. I was thinking about this as I realized (it was a slow day…) that some of my thoughts on China are a little ethnocentric. And I hateethnocentrism so I’m at a loss for a solution.”
That should come as a great relief to those who are extremely ethnocentric such as the Chinese government and most other non-western governments.
Kel, it’s great to know you will be reading the story of Gladys Aylward in your homeschool!
The biography I mentioned, The Little Woman, garnered many 5-star reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/Gladys-Aylward-Little-Woman/dp/0802429866
This organization is very committed to ending forced abortions in China. However, I do not see many Chinese women on the board of directors, which could be problematic. But very worthy cause:
http://www.womensrightswithoutfrontiers.org/
Also, as far as cultural relativism goes (Hi, Vannah):
Fears of ethnocentrism should not stop us from saying when a practice is harmful, or potentially harmful, to a group of people. But it is important to recognize the history behind these practices, to understand why they exist in the first place and how practices take different shapes in different places. If you want to change a practice, you need to change the wider cultural/environmental setting. Also, it is imported to look at on-the-ground realities to see where women and other oppressed groups do exert agency and control over their situations so we can amplify their efforts. Even in the most oppressed societies people are resisting and fighting back, and since they have the best knowledge of the situation, we need to listen to them and help them in those efforts.
Government-enforced population control is a terribly oppressive agenda. If a population boom is imminent, it makes most sense to a) create sustainable development plans to ensure an adequate, just distribution of resources for the coming generation and b) provide women with ways to control their fertility, like contraception at reduced costs. The only logic behind not providing women with adequate family planning means and then forcing women to abort at eight months of pregnancy is to further state control in the most terror-inducing manner possible. It’s heinous.
If a population boom is imminent, it makes most sense to a) create sustainable development plans to ensure an adequate, just distribution of resources for the coming generation and b) provide women with ways to control their fertility, like contraception at reduced costs. The only logic behind not providing women with adequate family planning means and then forcing women to abort at eight months of pregnancy is to further state control in the most terror-inducing manner possible. It’s heinous.
AMEN!
I was in my doctor’s office the other day and was reading Glamour — not something I usually read, because I find fashion magazines rather silly, but there was a very interesting editorial about forced abortions in China. This magazine, like 99 percent of women’s magazines (with the exception of Redbook and a few others) is very pro-choice, so I was surprised when they said to write your Congressperson about this awful practice. It’s in the November 2010 issue (couldn’t find it online).
This column by Kathleen Parker (who now has a new show on CNN) was written last year, about this very subject. She reveals heartbreaking info which is shocking and saddening:
http://jewishworldreview.com/kathleen/parker111109.php3