Jivin J’s Life Links 10-13-10
by JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat
- Overheard at the Abortioneers’ blog:
I see patients who are sad after their abortion just as often as I see patients who are elated they aren’t pregnant anymore.
- At the Acton Institute, Michael Miller discusses a piece in the Weekly Standard by Jonathan Last entitled, “America’s One Child Policy,” which I somehow missed. From Last’s piece:
- During the last 50 years, fertility rates have fallen all over the world…. [E]very country in every region is experiencing declines in fertility. In 1979, the world’s fertility rate was 6.0; today it’s 2.6. Industrialized nations have been the hardest hit. America’s 2.06 is one of the highest fertility rates in the First World. Only Israel (2.75) and New Zealand (2.10) are more fertile.
China and America have yet to witness the effects of falling fertility because of demographic momentum. Populations increase even as fertility rates collapse, until the last above-replacement generation dies, after which the population begins contracting. The rate of contraction speeds up as each generation passes. No society has ever experienced prosperity in the wake of contracting population.
- Some members of the NY City Council are proposing to regulate crisis pregnancy centers by forcing them to disclose that they don’t perform or refer for abortions among other items:
The legislation, backed by Speaker Christine Quinn (pictured left), would require the centers to disclose to clients that they do not provide abortion services or contraceptive devices, or make referrals to organizations that do. Centers that don’t have licensed medical providers on-site would also have to disclose that information.
Under the bill, the centers would be required to hang disclosure signs in their offices and post statements on websites and in advertisements….
- Chris Slattery (pictured right), president of Expectant Mother Care Frontline Pregnancy Centers, which operate in the city, said the legislation is a violation of First Amendment rights. He accused the council of championing the “abortion industry’s agenda.”
“This is an outrageous interference with an extremely helpful and positive outreach to often disadvantaged expectant mothers,” Mr. Slattery said. “How many other NYC businesses will be required to say on their doors what services they don’t offer?”
I’m wondering if the NYC City Council, which apparently cares so much about women, has done anything to stop Pierre Renelique, an abortionist who lost his license in FL for medical malpractice, from practicing in NYC.
Susan Dominus’ New York Times article on the Council’s plans is unintentionally hilarious:
The centers – crisis pregnancy centers – provide support for women who would like to continue their pregnancies but are in dire financial straits. They provide useful social service referrals and offer a sympathetic ear for women continuing their pregnancies.
They do not, however, provide a full range of alternatives (like the morning-after pill) or condone all choices.
Can you imagine that? They don’t condone all choices? The horror!
We also learn that a NARAL Pro-Choice America investigation (which was certainly scientific and unbiased) found that CPCs do a bunch of things NARAL doesn’t like. But the investigation was “year-long” so it must have some merit, right?
[Quinn image via nymag.com; Slattery image via emcfrontline.org]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
What a mean man Slattery is, not railroading babies to their deaths! Actually, I’ve gotten to know Chris personally in recent weeks and find him great, kind man. His response to Quinn is not at all unreasonable. I blogged on this yesterday:
http://gerardnadal.com/2010/10/12/new-york-citys-assault-on-crisis-pregnancy-centers/
Not wanting to appear hypocritical perhaps abortion clinics would be willing to display signs like these:
Ah Cranky,
You are skilled, my friend.
I was relieved for around 2 days after my abortion. Which proves what exactly?
I’m having a Photoshop day.
Nick,
Why do abortionists tell women it’s just a blob of tissue at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks?
Why don’t they tell the mothers what the embryology texts say about the human identity and status of their unborn child from the moment of conception?
Why don’t they show them the sonograms?
Why does Planned Parenthood fight with every fiber of its malevolent being against legislation that would mandate showing these women sonograms of the baby about to be butchered literally limb-by-limb?
Why don’t the abortionists proudly proclaim that they kill babies?
Why don’t we mandate that they show 4D sonograms and embryoscopy movies of babies at the stage of development corresponding to the baby about to die?
Get real.
Hmm, I wonder if the pro-choice community is as interested in making sure women know how the birth control pill works? Probably not..
Amen, Keli Hu.
Carla, I felt better as soon as I got the shot of Valium. In fact, that’s when I changed my mind, because the calmness gave me clarity. But, long story short, I was not allowed to leave (as I’ve written here before). I don’t know what the ‘abortioneer’ is talking about: I didn’t see any girls look grateful that day, I didn’t see any that were not crying and sobbing, and I certainly did NOT hear any words of praise directed at the staff.
You want to know who got thanked? ME! I was hugging the girl next to me while she sobbed and sobbed. I petted her hair and told her, “It’s gonna be ok..” There was a woman there with her daughter (the only one who was allowed ‘in the back’) who came over and said, “That was a real nice thing you did, comforting that girl.” The staff completely ignored us except to say, “OK, it’s time to leave now, we need that chair.”
ninek,
I didn’t see much “elation.” Just a lot of crying and sobbing girls. Some holding their stomachs and moaning. Others crying out, “My baby!” But nobody looking anyone else in the eye. Nobody comforting them. Nobody answering their cries. Just escorting them out the door.
Pretty sure if we had just done something grand that actually helped us and we felt grateful to the staff for their care I imagine we could have all left the mill holding hands and skipping to my loo, my darlin.
Great photoshop, Cranky. I shared it on my blog.
Nick,
I volunteered with a CPC and clients were advised we would not refer for abortion. The client always had the option to hang up the phone or simply get up and leave if she wasn’t interested. Unless we forcibly restrained her, locked her in a closet, or threatened her with a deadly weapon, I have no idea how the woman could be forced to do much of anything she didn’t want. Isn’t it odd how women can pilot space flights and fight in wars but they are totally helpless in the clutches of a CPC?
I wonder if the late abortionist Tiller ever advised his patients that his staff had no medical training or credentials of any kind. Maybe this is the type of situation NARAL should really concern itself with.
The NARAL playbook is being followed to the letter. They won in Baltimore City and Montgomery County (in Montgomery County, the author of that legislation went down in the primary, by the way). I hope and pray that the pro-lifers in NY can thwart the NARAL cartel who are only interested in filling their coffers with blood money.
And lets not forget that CPC’s are NON PROFIT…as opposed to the murder mills that make a LOT of money killing babies. Every time a woman goes to a CPC and keeps her child, the abortion industry loses a sale. It’s all about the MONEY and nothing else. WE know it and THEY know it. It’s no big secret.
Hey Nick,
What about the signs I suggested for PP?
Hi Dr. Nadal. Why don’t CPC’s have signs stating that they will misinform with claims such as:
‘you could very possibly become sterile’ – studies show no increased risk of fertility problems or poor birth outcomes for women who have first trimester abortions
‘you increase the risk of breast cancer’ – discredited, despite your blog (which by the way, I must say I find is becoming a little unfocussed and inconsistent)
‘all condoms are defective’ – perhaps if people aren’t taught how to sue them correctly
’emergency contraception is not available in the US’ – ahem.
and there’s plenty more.
‘you could very possibly become sterile’
And yet, oddly enough, MANY of us who have dealt with ACTUAL post-abortive women have found many of them DO become sterile. Scarring is a risk of ANY D&C procedure, which can lead to difficulties with fertility.
‘you increase the risk of breast cancer’ – discredited, despite your blog
Actually, no, it hasn’t been discredited, but I’m sure the physicians worldwide who have actually found and published those connections in peer-reviewed journals will appreciate your statement.
‘all condoms are defective’
‘emergency contraception is not available in the US’
Why would anyone say all condoms are defective? That is simply idiotic and untrue. However, at CPCs, it is important to inform young women of their failure rate. Even teen sex education sites list this. And the EC one is ridiculous, too. Have you actually SEEN or HEARD these claims yourself? How stupid do you think these girls are to not know EC is available here?? Please.
BTW, Cranium, I hope you know you find yourself in good company, as many of your arguments sound exactly like “Nick’s.” “Nick” is an abortionist. SoMG, you can drop the act now. As Jill already said, we know who you are and have known since you began posting here under this moniker.
I don’t understand why they object to this, and I wish someone would explain it to me.
The point is that they’re being targeted unfairly BECAUSE they are pro-life, by supporters of NARAL and Planned Parenthood. I could care less, frankly, about posting something that says, “We do not perform or refer for abortions,” because that is EXACTLY what I told every client who asked over the phone or in person. And 99% of them STILL made an appointment to come in for a free pregnancy test.
Why would an abortion clinic object to posting a sign that says “We will show you your ultrasound or give information on fetal development upon request”? Your responses show a “who cares” attitude about information that may actually HELP that woman to make a well-thought out and fully informed decision. If you think a CPC which offers “abortion alternatives” in its ads is somehow NOT being upfront that it doesn’t do abortions, then why wouldn’t you make it clear to an abortion patient that she has the right to see her ultrasound if she wants and all she has to do is ask? What makes you think they will simply ASSUME they need only ask to see it, or ask about fetal development?
And btw, in a Lila Rose video, we saw what happens when patients DO ask about fetal development. They get fed a line of crap, that’s what. http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2009/12/09/new-undercover-planned-parenthood-video-from-lila-rose-the-rosa-acuna-project/
Hi Kel. Then perhaps they should have said ‘there is a slight possibility you could become sterile’.
Actually yes, it has been discredited – soundly. The outstanding majority of up to date and independent studies and reports state that there is no link.
I think you’re being a little naive. You know that there are people and groups who state that condoms come ‘pre-holed’ and similar claims.
Who is ‘MG? Did you mean ‘NG’? If we are alike it would be because we both support women’s right to choose.
Ah, Lila Rose. I’m sure I recognized one of the actors in one of her videos.
I think you’re being a little naive. You know that there are people and groups who state that condoms come ‘pre-holed’ and similar claims.
Yeah, and they’d be more than a little questionable. CPC counselors are not those people. Don’t confuse the two.
“SoMG” is a former poster here, now known as “Nick.” He is an abortionist. You are alike because you really, REALLY support a woman’s right to choose to kill the unborn child (fetus) which grows inside her simply BECAUSE it is growing inside her. “Nick” just takes the philosophy a step further and actually does the procedures themselves. Oh, and he threatens pro-lifers, too. Fun guy.
Ah, Lila Rose. I’m sure I recognized one of the actors in one of her videos.
Uh huh. Riiight.
I get it, cran. The abortion industry is “normal” and above reproach, never deceiving anyone and with wholly altruistic motives. CPCs are the questionable ones. Got it.
‘Yeah, and they’d be more than a little questionable.’ – they certainly are. What about the pope and that whole “condoms spread AIDS” thing!
‘CPC counselors are not those people. Don’t confuse the two.’ – well the information I have says they have done and do so. It’s only anecdotal evidence, but that’s all there is from either point of view.
I really REALLY do support a womans right to choose. But it’s not ‘simply BECAUSE it is growing inside her’ – what a farcical remark. If that were the case I’d claim that every pregnancy must, MUST be aborted, and that is not the case, at all. You scoff at ‘safe, legal and rare’ but that is what I espouse.
Well yes, the abortion industry is ‘normal’. But neither side is completely innocent in the way they represent their position to ‘clients’. Both are questionable, but from my perspective, more misinformation is disseminated by CPC’s than PP’s. You should see what my partner can do with a professional camera, lenses and programs like adobe cs5, brilliant!
And if the Abortioneers and most pro-choice activistst took the time to listen to women share their view of their abortion experience and the broad range of abortion experiences and the feelings and emotions they experience, both immediately and years down the road, here’s what they’d hear
Yes Rachael C., we’ve all heard them. What we don’t hear are the tales of trauma, despair, hopelessness, grief (yes grief), loss and destitution experienced by those who did not want to proceed with a pregnancy but for whatever reason had to. These voices are silent. They go unheeded. Does anyone care. Ah yes that’s right, the fetus subsumates the woman, and her life. I do care about these unsupported, unrecognized, silent sufferers.
Know why we don’t hear the tales? Why we don’t have armies of hateful mothers marching on Washington declaring that they wish their children were dead? Cuz they don’t exist.
I finally figured out what happened to the remains of the first little pig’s house: the abortionists scooped it up and made straw men to yell at. Oink!
Nick, 10:03PM
Simple. Because initial contact was made by phone. We then agreed to meet where it was most convenient for a client, sometimes it was an office room donated by the hospital. So you see Nick, it was a simple matter for the client to hang up the phone if she wasn’t interested or if she changed her mind after talking to us, to stand up and walk out.
BTW Nick,
Speaking of upfront honesty with women, do you know if Tiller advised his patients that his staff had no training or licensing in patient care, surgical assistance, patient supervision, and administering of drugs? Certainly you would agree a patient had a right to be so informed.
“You forgot to mention SoMG’s excellent blog, operationcounterstrike.blogspot.com.”
You are hilarious, SoTS… :)
Since PL is concerned with life seen as a continuum I’ve often wondered about other human populations threatened by a eugenics mind-set. So Nick, do disabled folk and elderly (who are not in a woman’s womb) have a right to life?
The point is that they’re being targeted unfairly BECAUSE they are pro-life, by supporters of NARAL and Planned Parenthood.
I agree. I don’t have a problem with putting up signs. But then they (NARAL, Planned Parenthood, and their flunkies)will place more and more restrictions on the centers designed to put them out of business. Let’s face it — NARAL et al. just don’t want the centers to exist at all.
‘Borts are always saying that we insult women’s intelligence. But what part of ABORTION ALTERNATIVES is not clear? Are women really that stupid? I used to work on a prolife hotline and when I did say we offer alternatives to abortion, some women would hang up. I was disappointed, of course, but what was I supposed to do, hunt these women down and force them to come to our offices? Shouldn’t women have a CHOICE to go to a CPC?
By the way, the CPC I donate to (and would like to volunteer with) Alpha Pregnancy Center, has two nurses on staff and a licensed social worker.
Jill, i wish you wouldn’t post these articles. Why? Because every time I read them I feel the urge to donate money to a CPC and it’s making me broke!
I predict that these mean-spirited attacks will have the opposite effect and backfire!
Making it legally required for CPCs to say that they don’t do abortions or refer to them implies that such a law is necessary in the first place. Of course businesses, charities, or institutions of any kind should be honest about what they do and don’t do. Where’s the proof that CPCs are so deceptive that someone actually needs to pass a law to stop them from lying? Nowhere.
You should see what my partner can do with a professional camera, lenses and programs like adobe cs5, brilliant!
Ah, I see. And round and round it goes again. And the same “farcical” remarks are purported by pro-choicers again. “The pictures are fake.” “They’re all photoshopped.”
Let me ask you, what the he** do you THINK a dismembered fetus looks like?
I have no idea about the Pope or what the Pope says. I’m not Catholic.
You support a woman’s right to end a life BECAUSE you believe her right to abort outweighs the life of the child (yet of course, to espouse this view you must make every effort to dehumanize the unborn human). You’ve responded before that if the child is born (oh, pardon me, and completely separated from the umbilical cord as well), or a toddler, how ridiculous it is to assume that the mother could arbitrarily end her child’s life. So, your argument IS that since the child is growing INSIDE HER BODY, that she has the right to terminate that life at will.
It is never normal to kill one’s child.
I am amused by the word ‘fetus’ to qualify as scientifically accurate. the word is Latin and translates to English as ‘young one’. It immediately leads to ‘young one’ … what? Answer ::: ‘young one … HUMAN’. The word fetus is the word for a development stage … like, infant, teen, octpgenarian, and many others. It is not species-specific: there are fetus – HUMAN, BOVINE (cow); EQUINE (horse); FELINE (cat); DOG; on and on. If he knew the word iin Japanese would that word be unscientific? Are not RIGHTS, HUMAN-rights?
A newborn HUMAN is called a ‘neonate’. I think there would be objections if this was translated (correctly) as ‘after-birth’. Why is there confusion in the language between a newborn HUMAN and his/her after-birth?
umm, well, I do know mothers who felt forced and inconvenienced to have a child. Mine, for instance. And you know what? So what! I am alive and I am grateful to be alive, and the three children she felt coerced into having- are the only good things she has ever done with her life. She’s mentally ill – not functional. Children interfered with her getting messages beamed into her head. Children needed food- daily- children needed clothes- Children had fathers who cared enough to fight for custody- so she had to go to court, rather than hang out on the beach and watch the sun rise, to get her message for the morning.
I’ve met other children of schizophrenic, bipolar, alcohol addled mothers. We interfered with their daily self- destruction. None of us were “wanted” by our mothers.
The “wanted child” bit- Who wants that kid? Right now,the only voice counted is of the mother, during the six months or so that she knows that she’s pregnant. Well, what about the fathers, and the grandmothers, and aunts, and uncles, and grandfathers, and cousins, even second spouses? That’s the army of people that wanted me, my brother, and my sister. They fought to keep us alive in the womb, and cared for us afterwards. I don’t care what her choice was- I’m glad I’m alive.
It’s not PC, it’s not legally correct- but I am glad my life counted for more than her opinion.
Bravo ari!!!
Nick, Planned Parenthood raked in millions in profits. It was something like 320 million (does someone else remember the exact figure?). They call themselves non-profit but yet the charge for every abortion they perform while they open their cash registers for the tax dollars to flow in. Their president, the lovely Cecile, lives in an expensive apartment and lives a cushy lifestyle. Non-profit, huh? Why don’t they offer ALL abortions for free then?
My friend had an abortion at PP and they charged her. And when she went back a week or so later they charged her to put her on the pill. Even the birth control wasn’t free! And she wasn’t some rich girl. she was a broke 19 year old. But they didn’t offer her any “help” that didn’t come with a price tag.
Abortioneers! I love how they use the plight of poor, desperate women to produce sympathy for themselves. I remember a post by one of them, I think “daughter of wands”, who told a tale about a woman who had to pawn her grandmother’s pearls and a violin (oh, cue that violin music for the noble abortionists!) so that she wouldn’t have to behold the horror of letting her child live with an abusive father. Because it’s just sooo hard to actually help the woman out of the abusive situation, where she can get Medicaid to cover care and childbirth, and either care for her baby or make an adoption plan to give her child a stable family. Nope, kid’s gotta go, so Mommy can go back to getting bruises and broken bones!
If they ACTUALLY cared so much about women, their clinics would charge on a sliding scale, down to a point that their “abortion funds” could easily cover over and over again. (They might even refer a mother to a battered women’s shelter, instead of sending her back to her hell, de-pregnified and ready to be beaten and raped and impregnated and aborted again.)
How much does it really cost for them to murder a baby, anyway? Especially a first-trimester abortion, which they claim so many poor women miss out on, having to get second-trimester abortions due to being unable to raise the first-trimester funds in time.
This clinic in New York City, for example, shows you the abortion pill and the manual aspiration device they use and gives you the price on their website: http://www.earlyabortionoptions.com/ That’s right, they charge $600 for either a few pills or that cheap plastic piece of junk.
Abortionists hate women, ESPECIALLY poor women, and nowhere is this more obvious than blogs like “Abortioneers”, where they let their guard down. Not only do they kill their babies and turn their bodies into crime scenes, they also suck away every last dime these women can scrape together in poverty and desperation. Women deserve better than those misogynist murderers.
Gross. Where’s your mother-womb-vessel now, Ari?
When it comes to reproduction, even crazy women shouldn’t have a say. Even the most heinous abuses of women’s bodies can have a positive outcome:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3076557/
Y’all talk about slippery slopes, but no one seems to have an answer for the very real possibility that criminalizing abortion, in all circumstances, essentially means that people do not have the right to decide what happens with their bodies. And you get situations like this in pro-fetus, pro-life political climates:
http://advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/blog/2010/08/post.php
A woman refuses to consent to a C-section and the State threatens to take her kid away, to take away her rights as a parent. I dare you to read the other stories on this blog. Some “pro-woman” mentality. Isn’t your whole shtick that pregnant women in troubled situations can turn their lives around if they “choose life?” How do you justify then the State drug-testing poor pregnant women, throwing them in jail if they receive a positive result, and taking away their kids? If you wanted to help these women, wouldn’t rehab be the best option? But no, it’s all about the fetus, and you have poor, drug-addicted women who won’t go get prenatal care because they’re so afraid of being caught with drugs in their system and know how punitive the law is.
Some concern for women. You see why the “pro-CHOICE” platform is so salient?
Hm, I’m poor and paid for my abortion on a sliding fee scale, way less than it *should* have cost. I also paid nothing for an IUD. Maybe your friend didn’t report her income correctly, Sydney.
Also, how much does it cost to have a baby without insurance?
Megan: Not much if you have Medicaid paying for hospital, or a home birth with a midwife.
If you make an adoption plan for the baby, sometimes the adopting couple pays the medical expenses.
Well, if the law would require businesses to put up signs for the procedures they DON’T offer, I think PP should put a sign saying “We don’t offer you a choice of adoption or keeping your baby. We don’t offer maternity items. We don’t offer post-abortion councelling.”
I think that would be fair! And I think by the same note McDonalds should put a sign “We don’t sell healthy food”, too.
That’s really difficult to answer, since most places don’t even OFFER “non-insurance” quotes on any medical procedures.
Where I live, they can give you the quote for your insurance. If you have no insurance and you are of a lower income, you typically qualify either for Medicaid (like one of my family members did when she had her son in high school and later married a great guy) or another program which provides temporary coverage for pregnant moms and their babies for 60 days after their birth.
Clarice, your post was excellent!
Megan, she was a 19 year old with no “income”. What didn’t she report correctly? How stupid are the people at PP if they can’t look at a scared 19 year old and see that she is poor and probably needs some assistance? Why didn’t they ask her the right questions to see if she needed help? And when she said “I cant’ afford this!” that wasn’t a clue? Pulease. PP doesn’t care about helping women. Its all about money.
How do you justify then the State drug-testing poor pregnant women, throwing them in jail if they receive a positive result, and taking away their kids?
I do not justify this, nor have I heard of this happening in here in Pennsylvania. I don’t know if this is procedure in New Jersey, but here in Pennsylvania, if a woman GIVES BIRTH and the baby is found to have drugs in his or her system, the child is placed with a relative, and if no family members are available, an approved foster home. This is not to punish the mother but for the baby’s safety. The mother is referred to drug rehab programs. Today permanency/reunification is the goal of most social service agencies; the days of taking away children from “bad” mothers for good are gone. There is always the possibility that substance abusing parents can get their children back, and many do.
“How stupid are the people at PP if they can’t look at a scared 19 year old and see that she is poor and probably needs some assistance?“
Do you really want some answers to this question Sydney? (:
“When it comes to reproduction, even crazy women shouldn’t have a say.” Wow, feel the love! So are you saying that women with any form of mental illness should be forced to have an abortion and be forcibly sterilized!? Do you not realize that the severity of most disorders falls on a spectrum and recovery is possible with treatment. Would you tell me to my face, despite not knowing my situation, that I shouldn’t have children because I have a major depressive disorder? Well you and others who think like you can kiss my arse!
The quotation marks in my above post didn’t come through, I was quoting and responding to Megan.
HI Rachael,
I don’t think women should be “forced” to do anything. “Forced” pregnancy is just as bad as “forced” abortion. In cases of severe mental disability, the interests of the mother should be privileged. The question of outcomes is very important: would it be more emotionally and physically trying for a woman with severe mental retardation to give birth or to get an abortion? In the case of the Florida woman, Jeb Bush did not even consider the impact birth might have had on the woman’s health or mental state. There was no balanced assessment, just ideology-fueled power-wielding.
Also, nice selective reading. Did you even look at my post about what the State does to pregnant women in the name of fetal protection? I think it’s sick. So yes, I think forced sterilization is just as heinous as forced abortion, or forced gestation–anything that fails to take into account a woman’s say in her reproductive health and outcomes. Get a grip and read what I’ve posted before throwing out insults.
Greetings Kel. I wasn’t referring to the pictures of aborted fetuses. I know they are real, well except for the few that are actually of miscarriages.
‘So, your argument IS that since the child is growing INSIDE HER BODY, that she has the right to terminate that life at will.’ – yes I do. And I get the impression many here believe the rights of the fetus outweigh that of the woman, even when her life is at risk.
“And I get the impression many here believe the rights of the fetus outweigh that of the woman, even when her life is at risk.”
cranium, you’ve been here long enough to know that we don’t believe the rights of the fetus outweigh that of the woman. I doubt there is one regular prolife poster who advocates that a fetus be given the right to kill their mom.
Sorry Praxedes, I apologize.
It is some other anti-choice sites who have demonstrated that approach, and even then it is ‘some’, not ‘many’.
I recall a case a while back where a nun who worked at a catholic hospital was excommunicated because she was part of a team which chose to abort a fetus to save the mother from almost certain death. Apparently the outcome should have been left in god’s hands.
The question that emerges though is – where is the tipping point? What dangers in what spheres are required to manifest themselves before a termination would be considered ‘acceptable’?
Thanks cranium. Apology accepted.
Thank God cases like the one you refer to are almost unheard of.
My new reading comprehension teacher informs me that “almost certain death” is not the same thing as “certain death”.
Touche Praxedes! OK, perhaps I should have said certain death.
Anyway, the question is still relevant. What is the tpping point? For you? For Paladin? For Jill? For ninek? For Carla? For any other individual?
I could be obtuse and ask – if it’s ‘Thank God cases like the one you refer to are almost unheard of.’ – who do we thank for the ones that are heard of? But that’s not what we’re here for and would open a long and ugly debate, so I won’t ;-)
Yes cranium, you could have said ‘certain death’ but this wouldn’t have been the truth. The case you refer to has been debated here at Jill’s and other places. I can’t speak for the others but my views are in line with those found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Your right, opening up a debate about sin, sacrifice and death would be long and somewhat off-topic (although there is a relationship). As an athiest, I’m sure you have read and probably been involved in these debates yourself and there are places to go and do this.
“But that’s not what we’re here for”
I know why I keep coming to Jill’s but am not sure about why you do. Why do you visit here time after time? What are your hopes?
I’ve said why I come here Praxedes, more than once.
Hi Clarice,
You have to be highly skeptical of some of these sob stories. PP claimed that because of an undercover sting at a PP clinic, an innocent family was visited by police. The problem was the name and street name given by the undercover person were completely false. There was also the problem of there being no official source for this claim. There was the problem of the police report giving no indication of any action being taken after police left the clinic. Guess who the “source” was? A PP pamphlet.
cranium 8:51PM
Do you have any source for this? Having worked for years in Catholic hospitals it sounds highly suspicious.
cranium,
No the ABC link has not been discreditied. Being that there are conflicting and ongoing studies the findings are inconclusive. No study or group of studies ever “prove” anything or give a final answer.
“I’ve said why I come here Praxedes, more than once.”
The “tipping point” has also been asked about here before and you I didn’t get all snippy.
If you’ve answered why you come here before, I truly don’t remember your answer or I just never came across your answer. No need to be so evasive and short. I can either search for hours to find your answer or make assumptions about why you come here time after time.
So I ask again, what are your hopes? Otherwise, I’m left to assume my prayers are being answered more than I ever guessed!
Megan wrote:
I don’t think women should be “forced” to do anything. “Forced” pregnancy is just as bad as “forced” abortion.
And yet you wrote at October 14th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Gross. Where’s your mother-womb-vessel now, Ari?
When it comes to reproduction, even crazy women shouldn’t have a say.
That doesn’t exactly sound pro-chioce. And if I remember correctly, you were responding to Ari’s post about her mother and other women with mental illness, although your links refer to individual cases of woman with substance abuse and severe developmental disabilities. Also, in response to cases of pregnant woman wth moderate to severe MR/DD, sexual abuse should be investigated and ruled out as a cause of pregnancy, a concern pro-choicers often seem to overlook. Also, in these cases where a woman has medical issues, such as Epilepsy, in addition to MR/DD, a surgical abortion would likely pose just as much of a health risk and require greater care as a high-risk pregnancy as would carrying to term. Look at a the case of Christin Gilbert, for example. Nor was Christin’s was the only tragic death caused by doctors who recommended (or excused) abortion as a life-saving or health-preserving option for the mother, at the link you will find more such cases. If the woman has a health crisis so severe that it warrants an immediate abortion, then shouldn’t it be preformed in a hospital where close monitering and advanced life support is available if needed, instead of outpatient in an ambulatory clinic? Also, what of the option of close monitering, medical treatment, and terminating the pregnancy via an emergency labor induction or c-section to preserve both the mother’s and baby’s health, as is indicated for pre-eclampsia and eclampsia (source). Also, what if in cases of severe mental disability, the individual acting supposedly in interests of the mother makes the wrong decision, such as in Christin Gilbert’s case? Also, another option discussed here is providing counseling and support throughout the pregnancy and after birth the child is placed with a family member, and if no family members are available, a safe and good adoptive hom. Also, it’s a point worth making that abortions preformed for cases of woman’s health compose 3% or less of abortions preformed every year (AGI) and thus does not make a good case for the majority of abortions, which are preformed for elective, socio-economic reasons.
Mary, claiming that it is ‘conflicting and inconclusive’ does not change the reality. I could claim that the studies on geocentrism or reports of Elvis’s death are ‘conflicting and inconclusive’.
The reality is that the weight of independant evidential studies has concluded that there is no link between abortion and breast cancer.
OK Praxedes, why am I here?
Most on this site are anti-choice.
Some are so because of what they read here.
The site is most likely also visited by people who haven’t made up there mind on where they stand on the issue.
I provide both an alternative viewpoint and , more importantly, ‘pull things up’ when factually innacurate or misrepresented information is espoused in support of the anti-choice position.
Do you feel your prayers are being answered because my presence and the things I say and the information I provide strengthen your case? Do I provide an opportunity for you to identify new avenues of attack in your campaign? Do I help clarify aspects you can focus on to advance your case?
It could be a win/win scenario :-)
Rachael: it was sarcasm. Of course ALL women deserve to have a voice. I think it’s inhuman for a politician to use a mentally challenged woman for some pro-life political agenda, as in the Florida case. I’m not sure how it is determined what level of awareness/understanding a woman so mentally disabled might have. If it appears that she has no concept of the fact of her pregnancy, then outcomes need to be analyzed, i.e. which procedure would be more physically trying? (Most likely: pregnancy).
Also, these cases of abortion death are truly tragic, but check out the maternal mortality rate, of deaths caused by PREGNANCY complications.
cranium,
The fact is there are conflicting studies and as I pointed out, no study or group of studies ever give a final answer. The findings are inconclusive. If in your opinion after reviewing the studies there is no risk, fine. Another person reviewing all the studies may arrive at a different conclusion. Researchers will debate the validity of the studies. The debate goes on. It remains inconclusive.
Do vaccines cause autism? This remains an ongoing debate. People review the studies and come to entirely different conclusions. A friend of mine who is a special ed. teacher is adamant they do not. Some parents are adamant they do.
As for Elvis, I’m not aware of any scientific studies or debtes on whether the man is alive or dead.
Um, the ONE researcher who *found* vaccines to control autism falsified his results. His medical license has been revoked and he’s being charged with medical misconduct. The only *debate* happening right now is among people who haven’t heard about this scandal and still believe this dude’s fearmongering.
It typically takes only one affirmative study to confirm pre-existing fears, despite evidence refuting these claims. There have been many studies conducted in the West that have not found a link between abortion and breast cancer, or if they have, the effect of abortion couldn’t be distinguished from the *positive* effects of having kids. Women who had abortions were likely to have fewer children, so there you go.
Also, two recent studies *proving* the ABC link were conducted in Iran and Sri Lanka, two countries fundamentally different from the US. An average Sri Lankan woman does not have the same lifestyle as woman in the US: different diet, different work, different reproductive patterns, different exposure to risk.
Does this mean we should dismiss these studies? No, but we need to take them with a grain of salt and not exploit this data in an effort to fight against abortion. Hint hint, JStanek.
cranium and Megan,
Jill Stanek and all of the Prolifers who visit here KNOW that Human Life Begins at Conception. This is a Fact. This is the Truth. You will not find any intelligent biologist, scientist, adult or even abortionist who will argue this Truth. Someone like joan who states that the unborn don’t even exist exposes the unstable proabort mentality even more.
It is a Truth that Human Life Begins at Conception. It is a Truth that you both support abortion. It is therefore a Truth that you both support the intentional killing of human life. These truths cannot be denied.
You remain here because you want so desperately to get others to support your untruths, that being that killing humans is OK. You believe it is OK, others believe it is wrong.
The Truth of when human life begins cannot ever be changed. In spite of all the other data you want to argue about and refer to, the Truth that will illegalize abortion is the Truth that the unborn are as human as you or I and they deserve the same protections that we have.
Megan, 11:48am
You’re falling into the trap too many people, and until recently myself, have fallen into. “”See,see, this study “proves” I’m right”! Only my daughter being a published researcher set me straight. As she has told me NO study ever gives a final answer or settles an issue and no researcher who doesn’t want to be laughed out of the profession will claim it does. There’s always (an)other researcher(s) waiting in the wings to criticize the research, question the researcher’s methods and biases, debate its findings, and provide a study to counter it. Its groups and individuals who pounce on a study as “proof” of their position.
In fact Megan there have been extensive studies conducted on the autism/vaccine link and the findings remain inconclusive. As is usually the case, people must review the studies and draw their own conclusions. As I pointed out in my post, my friend who teaches Special Ed. is adamant they do not. Other people are just as adamant they do. So who’s right? As is also the case people pounce on the studies that support their positions and personal perspectives and experiences.
The comments you make concerning the ABC studies only shore up what I am saying. The studies are ongoing, endlessly criticized, analyzed, and debated, and will continue to be so. The reason why the findings concerning an ABC link remain inconclusive and we likely will never have a final anwer either way. Hint Hint Megan.
Does this mean we should dismiss these studies? No, but we need to take them with a grain of salt and not exploit this data in an effort to fight against abortion. Hint hint, JStanek
Megan,
We need to analyze, debate, and criticize these studies like we do all others. Studies supporting or opposing an ABC link should not be exploited by either side to “prove” a point.