Percentage of ob/gyns offering abortion declines to 14%
Great opening line in this MedPage Today article, August 24:
There may be fewer obstetrician/gynecologists performing abortions than previously estimated, researchers said.
The good news is that only 14% of 1,031 ob/gyns responding to a new survey said they commit abortions, down from 22% in 2008.
The results were published in the September issue of Obstetrics & Gynecology, although the lead researcher cautioned the apparent decline “may reflect different sampling and survey techniques.”
But the numbers are certainly trending our way. There may be all the freedom in the world to access abortion, but if no one is willing to do the dirty deed, the result is the same as if there were no access.
There were interesting finds, as shown in nice charts made by The Incidental Economist…
The religious breakdown of physicians committing abortions…
40% of Jewish doctors 26.5% with no religious affiliation 20% of Hindus 13% of Muslims (Interestingly, none of the other online reports included this particular stat.) 10% of Non-Evangelical Protestants 9% of Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox 1.2% of Evangelical Protestants
The most important factor determining whether or not a doctor will commit abortions is religion, about which abortion proponent Melissa McEwan at Shakesville wrote, “I’m not surprised. I’m contemptuous.” And I’m not surprised Melissa is contemptuous.
There is also the stigmatism factor, according to MedPage Today:
Stulberg and colleagues wrote that providers living in rural areas, especially in the South and Midwest, may be less likely to provide the service, even if they don’t personally object to it, because of opposition in the community. Many try to avoid being a target of antiabortion activists, the researchers said.
So God and protests work.
[HT: Rich; the strange top graphic comes via a Los Angeles Times story on this survey]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The headline is a bit misleading. It’s 14% of OB\GYN’s, not 14% of doctors. Lots of GP’s do abortions. It’d be interesting to know what percentage of GP’s do them.
I would never go to ANY doctor that performed abortions.
The numbers are difficult to track, however…
It doesn’t seem that abortions are declining at the same rate that abortionists are being put out of business. We need to do some detailed analysis here.
Dr. Nadal: the mom and pop shops are being driven out of business, as happened with Walmart:
http://thelastdemocrat.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/planned-parenthood-does-the-walmart/
Suzanne, good point. Will change. Thanks.
my girlfriend had 2 abortions
i drove her in 1994 to have her first. a hear later she aborted again
she found a female on and told me her appointment was going well. my friend had no idea who the dad of the second baby was. she confided this to the obgyn. she said the doctor told her “I’d rather you find another doctor”
after she did a quick pap and breast exam my girlfriend left.
should say found a female obgyn.
I have always been surprised that Jewish doctors have been at the forefront of the abortion industry.
In both the US and Canada it was a Jewish doctor who led the fight to legalize abortion.
I always have tried to understand this since it was the Jews who suffered and were the target of the WWII holocaust.
“I always have tried to understand this since it was the Jews who suffered and were the target of the WWII holocaust”
Their Talmudic theology, regarding the personhood of the fetus, is different from that of Christians. That is why the overwhelming majority of American Jews are pro-choice and are deeply offended by the comparison of the Shoah and abortion.
angel, I don’t get that either. They are still awaiting the messiah. You’d think they’d most likely NOT perform abortions!
I’d like to know if the 40% of Jewish doctors are practicing and whether they are orthodox, reform or another branch,
my point is that they KNOW as a people, what it’s like to be persecuted and tortured – they have oral and written history handed down, they have the missing aunts uncles, etc…..
yet they are willing to promote the barbaric practice of abortion.
Every Jewish doctor who thinks it’s OK to abort the Messiah is gonna have some ‘splainin’ to do when he meets G*d. Good luck with that.
“Every Jewish doctor who thinks it’s OK to abort the Messiah is gonna have some ‘splainin’ to do when he meets G*d. Good luck with that.”
Ah, once again the voice of the pro-life Christian who believes that everyone, regardless of religious affiliation, will go to the Christian version of the afterlife. Here’s the thing, Ninek, Jews don’t believe in the Christian version of heaven and hell. I know that you believe that you possess the “true” religion – but Jews don’t think that way. And it’s comments like yours that underscore the belief, in the Jewish community, that there is an element of anti-Semitism in the anti-choice community. You guys just can’t accept that not everyone shares your world view.
“yet they are willing to promote the barbaric practice of abortion.”
This comment is very similar to the views held by the Catholic priest Paul Marx, the founder of the anti-abortion, anti-contraception Human Life International. Abe Foxman, of the ADL, accused him of being an anti-Semitic, anti-abortion extremist. I suspect that you folks would agree with Marx:
“I do not blame the Jews for the abortion movement. I do say, and will say because it is the truth, that it is a strange thing how many leaders in the abortion movement are Jewish.” Marx supported his observation by noting, “A famous genetics professor in Paris told me that the leaders of the abortion movement in France were Jewish. I saw one, a Jewish female liar, do her thing on behalf of abortion at the World Population Conference in Bucharest.”
Marx also stated: “The fact is, I am surprised and shocked by the number of Jews who lead the abortion movement in so many countries after their horrendous experience with Hitler…. My medical friends, and I have many, have told me again and again how many Jewish doctors do abortions freely. From a highly reliable source in a city I shall not name for the moment, I learned of a Jewish doctor who does sixteen abortions every Saturday morning for $300.00 each.”
Bottom line is that there is a vast gulf between Judaic and Christian beliefs regarding many issues including abortion.
Every year at the March for Life, there is a Rabbi that speaks at the podium (I watch the March on EWTN or I record it). Anyway, NOT every Rabbi supports abortion, no matter what anyone says.
Since there is only one God, there aren’t a bunch of different places to go in the afterlife to accommodate different beliefs. (That would be Relativism, which is a human creation.) The universe? That’s God’s creation.
Anti-semitic? Oh, really. Do tell your pro-abortion Jewish friends how nice it is of them to finish Hilter’s work.
The vast gulf is between some people’s ears.
*sigh* I can’t believe I have to get back on this thread and explain that my above comment “how nice” is what we call sarcasm. It’s actually horrific and I wish they would stop immediately. What’s more offensive? Comparing abortion to slavery or holocaust? Or committing abortions? I have to go with committing, Alex.
CC: You could say the same thing to Jews. It’s an irrelevant criticism to point out to people that their beliefs differ from others. That’s the nature of reality in myriad ways.
Why would you think people are naive about that? It’s the most obvious thing in the world.
Being naive about how obvious things are to other people is perhaps the most blatant naivete imaginable, when how obvious they must be to everyone is something that must be obvious to you as well — but isn’t.
What percent of the 14% would perform ‘elective’ abortions?
Why in the world would Christians NOT think that their view on the afterlife is correct? Lol.
my husband is orthodox Jewish and he’s. astonished that even one Jew would have a hand in abortion. i. had to explain this to him. he’s not close to. his half sister. same dad different mom Debbie had 2-3 abortions and he’s disgusted with her. she suffers from meism
meism me me my money mine. mine my house my bank account. won’t give to charity cuz it’s mine every word put of her mouth is me me it’s all about me
“Anti-semitic? Oh, really. Do tell your pro-abortion Jewish friends how nice it is of them to finish Hilter’s work.”
Oh, please, get a grip. Jewish ob/gyns are most likely to do abortions. That doesn’t mean that the patients are Jewish. That is a different graph altogether. Blacks and Hispanics are most likely to have abortions.
I’m old enough. to remember when a sniper killed Jewish abortionist Bernard. Schlepian (spelling?)
and shame on any abortionist taking blood money
Why in the world would Christians NOT think that their view on the afterlife is correct? Lol.
Seriously Jack – it’s like we actually believe our own beliefs!
How dare you, CT! :)
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CC says: August 25, 2011 at 6:42 pm
…”the overwhelming majority of American Jews…are deeply offended by the comparison of the Shoah [holocaust] and abortion.”
Cloistered Cabala
You keep repeating this like some tantric mantra, but you never provide us with any proof to support your assertion.
I never said that ALL abortionists were Jewish, only that many are.
Since the Jewish faith was the forerunner of the Catholic faith (to which I belong) and many of our beliefs and traditions have their origin in the Jewish religion I find it sad to see God’s chosen people of the Old Testament participating in this atrocity. Nor do I comprehend it.
I have the made the same observations as Fr. Marx who never minced words about the reality of abortion and the abortion movement.
Notice that younger and female represent the same trend. Nowadays more ob/gyn med students are female. The reason that younger ob/gyns are willing to do abortions is that more of them are women.
“But the numbers are certainly trending our way. There may be all the freedom in the world to access abortion, but if no one is willing to do the dirty deed, the result is the same as if there were no access.”
That is why outlawing abortion is so effective. It makes it easy for doctors to say no. Right now the pressure is on ob/gyns to do abortions. Despite the heavy pressure, a huge majority of these educated professionals say no to committing abortions because ripping those little arms and legs off and crushing little skulls with your own hands is far different from abstract discussions about when life begins. So those closest to the carnage are far less likely than the general public to support it or participate in it. Just goes to show that the cold hard reality of abortion is the most convincing argument against it and the money to be made from it.
More and more doctors believe they should “first do no harm”? What a concept!
Oops! I didn’t mean to offend any pro-aborts who don’t believe that thoughts begin at the moment of their conception!
You think that thoughts begin at conception?!? Or is that not what you meant?
I mean that any thoughts I have begin at their conception. Don’t fret. Newly conceived people are blissfully unaware of our malevolence toward them. But that doesn’t make our ill-coneived thoughts about them any better.
Phew :-)
American Jews are overwhelmingly pro-choice. I heard Michael Medved theorize that it is a knee jerk reaction because most pro-lifers are Christian. He says that many Jews have a fear that Christians are trying to impose their religion on them so they resist anything they perceive as a Christian belief.
CC, if a person believes the earth is flat and gets in a boat – will they eventually sail off the edge of the earth? Because their beliefs determine reality?
Sorry but I don’t buy it. Truth is truth. If there were no such things as irrefutable truths then science would not exist because truth and reality would be fluid, ever-changing, relativistic things. As much as relativistic humankind attempts to fight against it, we live in a well-ordered universe full of black-and-white truths. That includes the afterlife. Just because we can’t see or measure something by human methods does not mean it does not exist.
I know that God is real and true because I have seen Him working in my life, both in the circumstances around me and in me personally. I know that God is real and what He says is the ”truest truth” there is. Everyone, regardless of what they believe, will be judged one day for their actions according to God’s standard. There is no “alternate option” for those who don’t believe in God. Everyone has fallen short of God’s standard, which is where Jesus comes in – to intervene on our behalf, if one chooses to accept His help.
OK, soapbox moment over. :-)
I’m sure a certain percentage of those young female OB/GYNs had their own little scrapes “so they wouldn’t have to drop out of med school”. And what better to help assuage your own guilt than by “removing the products of conception” from some other woman? I mean, EVERYBODY’S DOIN’ IT, RITE?
That would also explain their disgust with other women who go in for abortions. “Well…MY abortion was for a good reason! Not just because I was sleeping around! And I had to finish med school! What are these sluts doing with their lives?”
Because abortion is only wrong when you don’t have a good reason. And the only good reason is YOUR reason. —-> moral relativism strikes again!
“I’m sure a certain percentage of those young female OB/GYNs had their own little scrapes “so they wouldn’t have to drop out of med school”.
Probably not, having an abortion is inversely correlated with educational attainment.
“And what better to help assuage your own guilt than by “removing the products of conception” from some other woman?”
Probably not. Women are just more willing to go along with stuff because it is popular and expected. Opinion surveys consistently show that women support what authority expects more than men do. Men are more likely to go their own way. The difference isn’t huge, but it is real and significant.
“You keep repeating this like some tantric mantra, but you never provide us with any proof to support your assertion”
Just for starters:
From a Jewish magazine:
“This, to say the least, did not go over well with American Jews. Jews are overwhelmingly pro-choice, more so than any other group”.
From a Jewish site:
“The lopsided liberalism of the Jews shows up in their responses to issues on the public agenda, particularly on abortion. Jews are overwhelmingly pro-choice, with 61% saying the decision should always be left to the mother.”
Pew Research Center give the percentage of pro-choice Jews as 86%.
Jews represent a small percentage of the population yet they represent a high percentage of those involved with Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice groups.
If you’re really curious, why not go to your local Reform/Conservative temple and talk to a rabbi about it.
“we live in a well-ordered universe full of black-and-white truths. That includes the afterlife. Just because we can’t see or measure something by human methods does not mean it does not exist”
But we have scientific proof of things like quarks and sub-atomic particles. So far, there is no scientific proof of an after life which, btw, the Jews have a very different concept of as do other non Christian religions who don’t believe in Jesus – a man about whom we have very little primary source information. The Christian ”cannon” was decided by the Emperor Constantine, several hundred years after the event, at the Council of Nicea where it was decided which scriptures, which could easily have been edited, would be official. But that’s where faith comes in. The man whom you worship as your savior, is considered an apostate by the Jews. Religion is not part of the “black and white” world of science as it is very relative.
hippie at 9:18, how is THAT not finishing Hitler’s work? If Jews are killing black and hispanic babies I’d say that IS the work of negative eugenics.
The decision should be the mother’s? MOTHER? Mother of What? Mother of the blob of cells? If you are pregnant, you are already a mother…. good to see even “pro-choice Jews” agree.
My husband is a pro-life vegetarian Jew. My closest friend is a pro “choice” Christian. (She is one of those “I wouldn’t but I can’t tell someone else not to” fence-sitters)…..I’m an agnostic pescetarian pro-lifer. I don’t care if the entire population of Jewish people were 100% for abortion…..they would STILL be wrong. I don’t care about what’s popular. I care about what’s RIGHT.
And it’s comments like yours that underscore the belief, in the Jewish community, that there is an element of anti-Semitism in the anti-choice community.
As a statement, this is both unprovable and, if I might say so, downright idiotic.
Probably not, having an abortion is inversely correlated with educational attainment.
Maybe. But I can think of 2 people off the top of my head I’ve interracted with, one here, who have aborted for that very reason. What are the stats like for abortion w/college students again?
Probably not. Women are just more willing to go along with stuff because it is popular and expected. Opinion surveys consistently show that women support what authority expects more than men do. Men are more likely to go their own way. The difference isn’t huge, but it is real and significant.
This I find disturbing.
Reform Jews are the ones who support abortion – not Orthodox Jews. So it’s not all Jews we are talking about here. And yes – one would think with atrocities of the Holocaust and the like, members of society would not partake in any endeavor that would harm humans at any stage.
But the God of Israel is the God of Christians and Jews alike. And there is always hope that the age-old message: “Reform and turn back to God” would ring in the hearts of men and women today also and help them in making life-affirming choices and lives.
I sidewalk counsel here at Planned Parenthood near a major university in Illinois. You bet smart women get abortions – most of the clientele here are college students. I have had women come in who are undergraduates, and recently – a student with a grant to do graduate work aborted her child because she thought she could not do both. So smart women choose abortion to maintain their status quo. Most of them have not discussed this with family (who frequently volunteer to help them take care of the youngster or arrange for help for the family).
While we do have many young women in high school coming in for abortions, I can say with past experience that most of the people here are the ones who have smarts, are going to university or the local community college. But most women, no matter the intellectual ability, have not thought this through and can not predict their experience. In general, the abortion does not completely solve their problems, and some have had ramifications.
I hear about that when they call me back after their abortions, telling me of their regret. At the very least, the woman lives with that decision that she can not take back. And sometimes, the men in their lives, who talked them into ‘needing’ that abortion, will walk out on them, and they are left with no child and no partner. These realities they do not predict, and generally are surprised about.
I wonder, CC: couldn’t we turn this around? if Jews are so pro-choice (86%), why is it the majority of Jewish ob-gyns (60%) won’t perform abortions? They may have the largest minority who will, but still the majority won’t.
Maybe it’s because Jewish ob-gyns in their medical studies and daily work can see for themselves the reality of unborn life, and how unrealistic the Talmudic opinions about a fetus not being human until birth really are. (I don’t know myself, I’m just guessing here).
“Why not go to your local Reform/Conservative temple and talk to a rabbi about it.” – Only don’t go near the Orthodox ones, because they are more pro-life. Tell me, CC, are pro-life Orthodox Jews really Jews to you? (Come on, you use this one against us all the time).
You bet smart women get abortions – most of the clientele here are college students.
Reading this I was reminded me of Steve Jobs who has been in the news lately because he is resigning from Apple. His mother was a college student, who had an unplanned pregnancy, and gave Steve up for adoption. This, of course, was pre-Roe and abortion was illegal. A story like this really brings the reality of what legalized abortion has done: Millions of pre-born people have had their lives snuffed out before they were ever given a chance.
Thanks Denise – I did not know that about Jobs. He needs prayers – has had major health problems – pancreatic cancer, liver transplant, etc, and does not look well.
But he, and countless others are the face of those who are missing through abortion. Yes abortion did away with some bad people – but overwhelmingly good, honest, hardworking, industrious folk who would have their own families/careers/accomplishments/talents and would have made an impact on this world – not to mention their future offspring.
All humans have worth. Too bad so many have not been allowed to live. Let’s learn to love big.
CC, I didn’t say that God was scientifically measurable or that “religion” is. Science was an exampe of how the world is full of absolute truths. My point is that there is such a thing as absolute truth with regards to “religion”/ the afterlife as well as many other things in existance. It doesn’t matter what someone “believes” – there is one truth and only one. A person can believe in any religious system in the world but that doesn’t alter the reality that there is only one truth with regards to God.
It doesn’t matter what other religions think of God/Jesus. It doesn’t matter if the Jewish faith considers Him apostate. That doesn’t alter the truth – He is THE way, THE truth, and THE life.
As far as Constantine is concerned, I’ll let someone more knowledgeable than me address that issue. However, I do not believe that the Bible was “re-written” in any way by these people. We do have older manuscripst to compare to and if there were any significant discrepancy between today’s Bible translations and the older manuscripts I think they would be pretty well-known and well-publicized by now.
“Tell me, CC, are pro-life Orthodox Jews really Jews to you? (Come on, you use this one against us all the time”
Absolutely. But the beauty of Judaism is that they can agree to disagree without charges of heresy and excommunication. Judaism is a big tent religion.
“And it’s comments like yours that underscore the belief, in the Jewish community, that there is an element of anti-Semitism in the anti-choice community.
As a statement, this is both unprovable and, if I might say so, downright idiotic”
I am merely restating what Abe Foxman, of the ADL, has stated.
New York, NY, October 30, 1998…A strain of anti-Semitism runs through the extreme factions of the anti-abortion movement, according to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). In the days following the fatal shooting of Dr. Barnett Slepian, a Buffalo, NY gynecologist-obstetrician who performed abortions, speculation has surfaced as to whether Dr. Slepian may have been targeted because he was a Jew. Four of the five abortion providers shot by a sniper or snipers in Canada and the United States since 1994 have been Jewish.”While there is no evidence to suggest that anti-Semitism was a motive for the attacks, we are deeply concerned about the strain of anti-Semitism running through some extreme factions of the movement,” said Abraham H. Foxman ADL National Director. “They make insidious claims that Jewish doctors control the practice and industry of abortion, often comparing them to Nazi war criminals.” He named Human Life International, a major anti-abortion group with a history of anti-Semitism, as ‘inordinately preoccupied with Jews.
CC:
I am a Jewish pro-lifer and I think you are totally off-base. You based the “antisemitism” of the pro-life movement on a quote from one man? And an incredibly weak quote at that. He himself states there was “no evidence” the killing was related to anti-semitism, and then names one organization that is “preoccupied with Jews” (without any evidence, of course). Also, who the heck is he (or you) to speak for Holocaust victims?
This page contains heartbreaking quotes from a REAL Jewish survivor who is pro-life.
http://www.personhoodusa.com/blog/holocaust-survivor-supported-personhood-my-time-martin-small
I have also met a pro-life Holocaust survivor…she lost her sister and unborn niece in the Holocaust. She is pro-life because her niece meant nothing to the Nazis, but was already an important part of the family. Of course, these are actual survivors…NO ONE has the right to speak for genocide victims and say it is “offensive” to compare other mass killings to another mass killing. So most Jews are “pro-choice.” So what? Many Jews I know have no problem killing innocent Palestinians either. Morality is not based on popular vote.
“Tell me, CC, are pro-life Orthodox Jews really Jews to you? (Come on, you use this one against us all the time”
Absolutely. But the beauty of Judaism is that they can agree to disagree without charges of heresy and excommunication. Judaism is a big tent religion.
CC, my question was not whether Jews with different religions were “real Jews” to each other. My question was whether the pro-life Orthodox are “real Jews” to YOU. I would have to say not, because you consistently ignore their very existence, and won’t allow the possibility they could even have a voice in the abortion debate even within their own religion.
To you, Jews are not a religion divided on this issue as all others are — and yes, many pro-life Orthodox are highly critical of the pro-abortion Conservative and Reformed. To you the Jews are just an “overwhelmingly pro-choice” prop for you and your own beliefs. A number of Jews and their family members here are indicating their disagreement with your pro-abortion rhetoric. That ought to tell you something, shouldn’t it?
Come to think of it, if you are as ignorant about Judaism as you are about Christianity, you are best off not commenting on the subject at all.
I am merely restating what Abe Foxman, of the ADL, has stated.
—
Your link is a far cry from what you initially stated. Which was unprovable as much as it was absurd.
CC,
“Religion is not part of the “black and white” world of science as it is very relative.”
Does it seem very absolute to you that religion is relative? You are arguing, as far as I can tell, that one must not treat one’s own view as the only possible perspective, which you think is the only right way of dealing with religion. Your statement proved itself false, much like “There is no truth.”
“A number of Jews and their family members here are indicating their disagreement with your pro-abortion rhetoric.”
As opposed to hard data, much of it from polling data and voting patterns. Keep trying to tell yourself, Lori, that American Jews are pro-life but in doing that, you deny reality. Not only did I grow up in a Jewish neighborhood; but I am involved with a number of Jewish women, who do represent their temples and their neighborhood, who are a major part of the pro-choice lobby in my state. And it’s just not RI. The NY pro-choice lobby draws largely on a huge Jewish pro-choice demographic – as does California.
Most American Jews are either Reform or Conservative. Your pro-life orthodox pals are a minority. As I stated an as stated by the data, American Jews are ”overwhelmingly” pro-choice. (over 80% on one matrix).
You might be an expert in Catholicism, Lori. But you don’t know jack about Judaism and the sentiments of the very liberal American Jewish population.
“NO ONE has the right to speak for genocide victims and say it is “offensive” to compare other mass killings to another mass killing.”
I guess you don’t respect the views of the ADL which does advocate for the Jewish people. You say that your are Jewish. Which congregation are you a member of and if you are Reform or Conservative, where does your congregation stand on abortion?
Oh, and Lori. Every read “The Sword of Constantine?” It’s all about the anti-Semitism of the Catholic Church. It’s written by an ex Jesuit and based on real history. Your church, Lori. You know, the “one true church.” I know you are well educated but do you actually believe that, Lori?
“You are arguing, as far as I can tell, that one must not treat one’s own view as the only possible perspective, which you think is the only right way of dealing with religion”
Correct. There is no “truth” when it comes to religion. It is very subjective. You are trying to argue that my argument implies truth. I guess you’re right because the only “truth” is that there is no “truth” to any religion. It’s like choosing a favorite wine. As there can be no objective criteria upon which to grade wines, the only “truth” is that there is no objective criteria.
And Lori, to answer your question. Yes, I do believe that, according to the definition of Judaism, orthodox Jews are real Jews. Based on their criteria, I believe that they are real Jews.
But do you believe that pro-choice Reform Jews are real Jews? A few Christian folks here don’t. And one more time, the Jews, unlike Catholics, are not beholden under penality of “mortal sin” (a Roman Catholic construct) to adhere to a certain dogma. You didn’t respond to that point, did you?
It’s apparent that you know nothing about Judaism so it’s best if you don’t comment on it. But it’s not surprising, the pro-life movement is, for the most part, very dogmatic and very Christian with your patriarchal church in the vanguard of the movement. You do know that there are women rabbis in Reform Judaism which is yet another point of distinction between Jews and your church.
CC, you are completely misunderstanding me. I am well aware of the numbers. I know that pro-life Orthodox Jews are in the minority. And not being Jewish myself, I have no right to say who is or isn’t a “real Jew.” If Orthodox Jews consider their pro-abort Conservative and reformed fellows real Jews, then of course they are. But because I am Christian and understand the criteria, I feel I do get a certain right to say who is or isn’t a real Christian. Understand how it works, now?
What I was concerned about was your apparent inability to admit that there is significant division among Jews on the subject of abortion. It sounded to me as if you were dangerously close to saying, “the only real Jew is a Jew who agrees with me.” If you say that isn’t so, fine.
As the rest, no I haven’t read Constantine’s Sword (the actual title), but from what I’ve heard of it, it’s “based on history” in pretty much the same way that The Da Vinci Code is. It’s laughed at by real historians. The author’s view of Catholic anti-Semitism is full of wild exaggerations. This doesn’t mean there hasn’t been Catholic anti-Semitism – for which John Paul II repeatedly apologized.But Carroll’s book is full of warning signs, like his inability to cite actual primary sources, at least according to what I’ve read. I don’t think I have any need for a book like his, since I covered this subject pretty thoroughly in my medieval and ancient history courses. And I do know how to get to the primary sources.
Oh, by the way, neither Constantine nor the Council of Nicaea had anything to do with establishing the canon of scripture. That’s straight from The Da Vinci Code or whatever piece of junk you last read. The canon was actually established at the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397.
Why do you show such surprise that an well-educated person (thanks for that anyway) should believe that the Catholic Church is the “true Church”? My study of history has shown me very clearly that it is identical with the one that Jesus Christ founded. That He founded a church is abundantly clear from the only real extended historical records we possess about him, the four Gospels. That Christianity is the true religion I also believe, though I greatly respet all others.
But flaunting your university degree while depending on completely unhistorical junk for your knowledge of Christianity is not very smart at all.
Sorry my last is so disjointed and has so many typos. The “save” on the editing screen kept failing till I went over the time limit. I meant to continue after the mention of the Council of Carthage with “roughly 70 years after Constantine. And the text of the New Testament according to the manuscripts is substantially identical from its first appearance at the beginning of the second century on. They were not edited by Constantine for ideological purposes.”
and mortal sin is not a catholic construct – it’s from the bible. some sins are deadly – and those are the mortal (deadly) ones… St. Paul and St. John talk about this in 1 Corinthians and 1 John. The Council of Trent talks about this in more detail (councils frequently were called to deal with heresies and clarification of teaching – and in this case they tackled more details regarding sin).
I wish that our anti-Catholic people here would stop making nonsensical statements. People should really study more, me included. So much to learn — so little time.
If people are unsure what the Catholic Church teaches, they should start with the Catechism. lots of info there – on all types of subjects. Very good. And all that information is also easily accessible on the web. Happy reading! ;)
“I sidewalk counsel here at Planned Parenthood near a major university in Illinois. You bet smart women get abortions – most of the clientele here are college students.”
Yes, of course. They just don’t have them at the same rate. This is partly due to the fact that they don’t have unintended pregnancies at the same rate. Inversely correlated doesn’t mean and incidence rate of zero. It just means that the rate goes down as education goes up. Similarly atheists are the least likely to have unintended pregnancies and because of that, also least likely to abort.
What do abortionists do to steel themselves emotionally? When you “see a small foot hanging from the teeth of [your] forceps” and then feel a “fluttery ‘thump, thump’ in [your] own uterus”, how do you process that experience? A few years ago, an assistant professor at U-M’s Medical School wrote a paper about provider perspective of doing second trimester abortions using that very experience as an example.1 She admitted that “[d]oing second trimester abortions did not get easier after my pregnancy; in fact, dealing with little infant parts of my born baby only made dealing with dismembered fetal parts sadder.” However, through a “series of values clarification exercises” and “on-going team building around some of the difficult aspects” of second trimester abortions, she and her staff have overcome the natural revulsion to dismembering tiny human beings.
After reading about this abortionist, I concluded that fourteen percent is still outrageously too high. It should be zero, especially among OB/GYN. What has become of the American medical profession? I don’t feel comfortable dealing with them – they cannot be trusted. Another unfortunate outcome of abortion on demand without apology.
1“Second Trimester Abortion Provision: Breaking the Silence and Changing the Discourse”, Dr. Lisa H. Harris, Reproductive Health Matters, 2008; 16(31 Supplement); 74-81;
See also “Abortionist Reflects on Dismembering One Baby While Feeling Her Own Flutter in Her Womb” By Kathleen Gilbert. LifeSiteNews.com http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/oct/09101501
“I know that pro-life Orthodox Jews are in the minority.”
Probably not for much longer. 9% of Jews in the US are Orthodox, but 27% of Jews 18 and younger are Orthodox. Pro life isn’t just anti abortion. It is a different worldview.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/WillYourGrandchildrenBeJews/
A culture of death is intrinsically self limiting.
Joyfromillinois, thanks, I didn’t have time to comment on that part. Hippie, totally fascinating information.
By the way, CC, you never answered my original question. If American Jews are so pro-choice, why would 60% of Jewish ob-gyns refuse to perform abortions?
What percent of the 14% of ob-gyns who would commit abortion would only commit abortion to save the life of the mother? My guess is far less than half of those 14% would commit elective abortion. Could be as high as 99% would not commit elective abortion if you pull from the pool that includes primary care doctors and not just ob-gyns.
“If American Jews are so pro-choice, why would 60% of Jewish ob-gyns refuse to perform abortions”
You use the phrase “refuse to perform abortion.” According to the article in ”Obstetrics and Gynocology” the question used for their survey is whether these physicians provide abortions – not whether they refuse. There’s a difference. One of the correlates was religion. So while religious consideration is, most likely, a consideration for some, one cannot say, with certainty, what percentage of these folks base their practice on their religious beliefs. While one assumes that Catholic doctors don’t provide abortions based on their religion, one cannot assume the same of other groups. Much would depend on the region. I would be curious to see the numbers for doctors in areas where there is no Planned Parenthood vs the numbers in urban areas where there are a number of clinics. I would be curious to see if pro-choice doctors, in pro-life areas, base their decisions on fear for their safety. Do some doctors, in pro-life states, feel constrained by state regulations? While 60% of Jewish doctors don’t perform abortions, without further data as to why, we cannot assume that they do so out of moral considerations – which also applies to all the other groups, too.
Correct. There is no “truth” when it comes to religion. It is very subjective. You are trying to argue that my argument implies truth. I guess you’re right because the only “truth” is that there is no “truth” to any religion. It’s like choosing a favorite wine. As there can be no objective criteria upon which to grade wines, the only “truth” is that there is no objective criteria.
#1 There is an objective criteria for grading wines. A good wine can be objectively determined to be good, while a bad wine can be objectively determined to be bad. This does not erase personal preference for a particular “flavor” or “style” of wine. Putting that aside, saying that there is a single Truth out of all the possible religions is not necessarily grading something, it is saying “this thing exists, all the others do not.”
#2 The statement “There is no truth except the truth that I have just stated, re, there is no truth” is a self-defeating argument. (Not to mention how bad it looks to say ”what I say is true, whatever you say is false” without supporting it.) What you are saying is that you are the only “right” person and everyone else is “wrong” just like every single other religion does, except you are even proving yourself wrong as you do it. You seem to think that you are making a truthful statement concerning religion while thinking that there is no truth concerning religion.
#3 When it comes to religion, either everyone is completely deluded and nothing in the universe is real, or there is a God, or maybe there are many gods, or maybe there is a thing called Fate which orders the world. Someone has to be right. Everyone else is wrong.
#4 How do YOU know there is no truth? What evidence do you have to support this claim? (“There is no scientific evidence” is an easily defeated rebuttal. The same goes for ”people disagree.” I would like positive evidence.)
#5 There is evidence that there is God, that He is the Christian God, and each denomination of Christian claims to know the absolute truth about Him. For this evidence, sans denominational conflict, read Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. (The book does not use miracles or scientific evidence to prove its case, but it does use positive evidence.)
#5 There is evidence that there is God, that He is the Christian God, and each denomination of Christian claims to know the absolute truth about Him.
Way to win over non-Christians to the pro-life movement! And ”evidence” of a “Christian”god, forgive me while I engage in a hearty ROFLMAO! But seriously, you’re saying that the Jewish monotheistic, non Trinitarian god isn’t true while your Christian god is. OKaaayy….Once again, there should be no question about how the anti-choice movement is full of religious zealots who believe in “My way or the highway” vis-a-vis religion.
So given that there is a great diversity of thought among Christian denominations, which one, pray tell, is the “true” one? And you say that there has to be one “truth” regarding religion. Maybe you’re wrong and Krishna is the way. Just joking….
And CS Lewis was a Christian writer – not a scientist so his veracity is questionable.
Philosophy and logic can ‘prove things’ without being a research scientist. That is what those disciplines are there for. This is what the liberal arts is – a broad grounding in many disciplines to reason, understand and know.
A purely scientific construct to measure all is ludicrous. It’s a false sense of measure.
For example – we all know love exists – but can it be scientifically measured to be love vs. nothing or anything else? If love could be captured and measured and put into a bottle or pill, it would be done. But here is an un-quantifyable aspect to life – and yet it exists, people experience it.
Sorry – but there is much more to life than strict measure-ability in the scientific sense: Love, truth, beauty, awe, wonder … God made us wonderfully that way – complex, beautiful, amazing.
CC,
“Way to win over non-Christians to the pro-life movement!”
Did I offend any non-Christians with what I said? My intent was to defend the concept of truth, for the most part, and in my very last point I mentioned a book that supported my idea of what, exactly, that truth is. Thanks for your concern.
“And ”evidence” of a “Christian”god, forgive me while I engage in a hearty ROFLMAO!”
I am sorry that your hysterical reaction to what I said prevents you from exploring that evidence in a calm, rational manner. Maybe when you are able to stand again you can research the evidence without the hindrance that my writing style seems to cause. If, on the other hand, you find that you are able to engage in a conversation with me, could you examine the other four points that I made?
“But seriously, you’re saying that the Jewish monotheistic, non Trinitarian god isn’t true while your Christian god is. OKaaayy…”.
I am saying that the Christian God exists. I believe that Jews are my elder brothers and sisters in the family of God. Before I move on, I would like to point out that the Christian God is also only one God.
“Once again, there should be no question about how the anti-choice movement is full of religious zealots…”
If the only qualification for being a religious zealot is believing what one professes to believe, then I am more than happy to take on that wonderful title. So you sentence actually reads “There should be no question that the anti-abortion movement is full of people who believe that what they say is true.”
“So given that there is a great diversity of thought among Christian denominations, which one, pray tell, is the “true” one?”
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of course, whichever one it proves to be.
And you say that there has to be one “truth” regarding religion. Maybe you’re wrong and Krishna is the way. Just joking….
That is indeed what I say. I am unfamiliar with Krishna. Could you enlighten me?
“And CS Lewis was a Christian writer – not a scientist so his veracity is questionable”
I believe I told you that he was not a scientist. What is wrong with a Christian writer offering evidence that Christianity is true? Have you read the book? If not, will you do it as a favor to me? It might help you understand my position. In the mean time, the first four points that I made are still up for discussion.
While one assumes that Catholic doctors don’t provide abortions based on their religion, one cannot assume the same of other groups.
Really? Catholics are the only religious group that take their moral teachings seriously? Well, thanks for the compliment, I guess. But I think this is very unlikely to be true. Other religious groups do have strictures against abortion, you know.
But seriously, you’re saying that the Jewish monotheistic, non Trinitarian god isn’t true while your Christian god is. OKaaayy
No. Christians believe that the Jewish God of the Old Covenant (Old Testament) is the same God who gave the New Covenant through Jesus Christ. Jews don’t believe in the New Covenant or the Trinitarian aspect of God, but I presume they accept that Jesus, who was a Jew, worshiped the God who gave them the Law and the Prophets, for according to the New Testament, he clearly did. As do his followers. And yes, Christians are monotheists, just as Jews are. There is only one God, but in three Persons. But you as the great religion expert already knew this, riiiighht? (Snorts and rolls eyes).
Correction: in Christian view, Jesus did not worship God, he claimed to be and is the only-begotten Son of God in the flesh. But Jews should easily be able to identify that God with the God of the Torah.
“Reading this I was reminded me of Steve Jobs who has been in the news lately because he is resigning from Apple. His mother was a college student, who had an unplanned pregnancy, and gave Steve up for adoption. This, of course, was pre-Roe and abortion was illegal. A story like this really brings the reality of what legalized abortion has done: Millions of pre-born people have had their lives snuffed out before they were ever given a chance.”
Risk takers beget risk takers. When we disproportionally remove these people from the population, we affect the distribution of personalities. More compliant folks and a culture with lower tolerance of individual differences.
CC “So given that there is a great diversity of thought among Christian denominations, which one, pray tell, is the ‘true’ one? And you say that there has to be one ‘truth’ regarding religion.”
There’s only one playground, and it has definite boundaries — but not all children regard the various parts of it with equal interest.
God obviously couldn’t care less about trivial matters that people even of one denomination differ on. There are non-essentials to anything in this world, which are of varying interest (or none) to folks. Other things are universal — believed by all Christians. Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, and Baptists find common ground in the seminal creeds of Christendom, for example. Other sects — like Mormonism — reject these creeds as “abominations” — which explains why orthodox Christian denominations generally speak of Mormonism as a non-Christian sect. They’re not even in the playground, so to speak.
In short, there’s an “orthodox space” within which God apparently enjoys seeing us free to err as much as we wish, and try to get along with each other. But there’s a boundary to this space, and there are those who are outside it. And of course there are those on the margins.
There are even weeds in the playground.
Wow, it sure means an awful lot to cc to put herself in a grouping with pro-abortion Jewish people. That’s an odd obsession ya got there. Every time there is a post or comment relating to Jewish people, our resident baby-hater can’t resist and goes on and on about it. Interesting. Very interesting. So, cc, why don’t you recline on the couch and tell us all about your obsession with Jewish abortionists. Did it begin in childhood? LOL!
As a clinic “escort”, one’s job is to make sure that when a pregnant mother arrives in the parking lot, she does not leave until her baby is dead.
You know those soldiers that made sure people got on the trains going to “farms in the country”? How are escorts different from them? Hm.. one group said they were only following orders. The others are volunteers. You could go anywhere else during your day. But you don’t go anywhere else. You stalk abortuary parking lots, making sure no victims escape. You must “save” them from the “evil” prolifers who try to change their minds. What could be worse, you wonder. You must get out of bed and hasten to the parking lot to make sure, make sure none of those mothers leaves with a living baby in her womb.
Bet you sleep well.
Every woman has a right to make the decision to take responsibility before having sex as sex can contribute to pregnancy.
Circumstances don’t change the fact that life begins at conception.