Romney and Obama at the Al Smith Dinner
I had never heard of the Al Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner before the flak that arose over President Obama being invited this year.
According to Wiki the event is “is an annual white tie charity fundraiser for [local] Catholic charities, held at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel in New York on the third Thursday of October… in honor of former NY Governor Al Smith, the first Catholic presidential candidate. The first dinner was in 1945, the year after Al Smith’s death.”
Last night’s event raised $5 million.
Wiki goes on to explain the Al Smith Dinner’s foray into presidential abortion politics:
Since 1960 (when Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy were speakers), it has been a stop for the two main presidential candidates during several U.S. election years….
Since 1945, only two presidents have not spoken at the dinner: Harry Truman and Bill Clinton. Candidates have traditionally given humorous speeches poking fun at themselves and their opponents, making the event similar to a roast. It is generally the last event at which the two candidates share a stage before the election.
Since 1980 this custom has been affected by friction between the Democratic Party and the Catholic Church over abortion. During the 1980 dinner Democratic incumbent Jimmy Carter was booed. In 1984, Ronald Reagan spoke, but his opponent, Walter Mondale, opted out, saying he needed time to prepare for an upcoming presidential debate. Amy Sullivan suggests Mondale’s decision was motivated by “tensions between the Catholic Church and the Democratic Party.”
In 1996 and 2004, the Archdiocese of New York chose not to invite the presidential candidates. In 1996, this was reportedly because Cardinal John Joseph O’Connor was angry at Democratic nominee Bill Clinton for vetoing a bill outlawing some late-term abortions…. In 2004… some speculated that the decision was due to Democratic nominee (and Roman Catholic) John Kerry’s pro-choice stance on abortion.
Which brings us to 2012, a year when Obama is not only viewed as pro-abortion but also hostile to the Catholic Church via Obamacare’s contraception mandate.
And so I understand the view that Obama should not have been invited to speak, that to give him the podium could be viewed as giving him tacit approval. I held that view before watching the speeches on t.v. and catching the vibe. I may still hold that view; I’m persuadable.
But there was something nice about seeing even abortion supporters, like Katie Couric and (Catholic) Chris Matthews [shown in the photo on either side of the speaker] being welcomed and shown compassion at a Christian gathering.
I remember mentioning to my pastor in 2008 that I became angry when spotting Obama bumper stickers in my church parking lot. He told me he liked seeing those bumper stickers, because they meant we were reaching the lost. (I don’t see any of those bumper stickers in the church parking lot this year, btw.)
Anyway, that was a long dissertation that brings me to the reason I started to write this post, and it is that Romney was hilarious. My husband doesn’t hoot and holler very often, but he was in shouting with laughter pretty much Romney’s whole speech, in which Romney shot some awesome zingers at Obama and Biden. Romney showed he has great comedic timing. He also mentioned pro-life hot buttons: the mandate, conscience protections, and the preborn (beginning at 8:34 on the video):
In our country, you can oppose someone in politics and make a confident case against their policies without any ill will and that’s how it is for me. There’s more to life than politics.
At the Al Smith Foundation and the Archdiocese of New York, you show this in the work you do, in causes that run deeper than allegiance to party or to any contest at the moment. No matter which way the political winds are blowing, what work goes on, day in day out by this organization and you. You answer with calm and willing hearts and service to the poor and care for the sick, in defense and the rights of conscience and in solidarity with the innocent child waiting to be born. You strive to bring God’s love and every – in every life.
(APPLAUSE)
I don’t presume to have all your support and on a night like this, I’m certainly not going ask for it, but you can be certain that in the great causes of compassion that you come together to embrace that I stand proudly with you as an ally and friend.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSznL29JyhQ[/youtube]
I thought Obama was ok but not great…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw5pJ8wG5JM[/youtube]
[Top photo via the New York Times; middle photo via New York Daily News; bottom photo via capitalnewyork.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
And in the time in which this little party was held….400-500+ babies were murdered.
None of them had a chance to pursue the “Dreams Of Their Fathers”
None of them had a chance to become a missionary…a Bishop….and the head of a Venture Capital firm.
None of them had a chance to become a gluttonous Catholic Cardinal.
None of them had a chance to become Rich Fat Cats….like those two pictured behind the laughing visages of the President, The Cardinal, and The Mormon…(isn’t that the start of a bad joke?)
And all of them had their Constitutionally protected right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness chemically dissolved, cut apart, or vacumned away from them and burned in an incinerator…..without a peep from all those pictured above….who supposedly champion the Constitution and became successful in no small part because of it.
Hey Cardinal…could you pass me some more of that Peking Duck….ummmm..ummm….. just like my personal chef used to make…
OOOO….can’t wait for desert…….Lady Fingers soaked in 100 year old Cognac…..just like MY personal chef does in the White House. <SLURP>
Yep, sure looks to me like the Cardinal is ripping Obama a new one.
I rest my case.
They should have let Obama talk first, and Romney finish.
There is an interesting tidbit about Governor Al Smith. He was Gov. of New York when Ruth Snyder and Judd Gray were sentenced to death for the murder of her husband. The motive was supposed to be the insurance policies Ruth Snyder had taken out on Albert Snyder. This murder case is significant because it served as the inspiration for the classic novels and later movies “Double Indemnity” and “The Postman Always Rings Twice.” Those movies themselves also served as inspiration for a slew of similar movies.
While she was incarcerated, Ruth Snyder converted to the Roman Catholic faith. Cynics speculated that this was a ploy to secure clemency from the Roman Catholic Al Smith. If so, it failed miserably. Her attorneys appealed to Gov. Smith for clemency. The statement he issued denying it said, “The execution of this judgement on a woman is so distressing that I had hoped that the appeal to me for executive clemency would disclose some fact which would justify my interference with the processes of the law. But this did not happen.” Both Snyder and Gray went to the electric chair.
As I’ve previously pointed out, it is not a “man’s world.” Societies are bi-sexist with both patriarchal and matriarchal elements. The fact that people in the West are often more uncomfortable with executing women is evidence for the matriarchal element.
I just have strong feelings about it. I feel so personally insulted as a woman. The Democrats saying they can actually speak for all women is inherently wrong. First off, it implies we are cattle. Second, for them to tell us what we want or need further indicates they want control over any power we hold as women, especially, regarding the angle they are taking, the ability to influence our ovaries for financial gain. Abortionomics in regards to the mandate, is proof. Less babies, less money the government has to put out on coverage, because there will be less people to cover. Obama and Seibelus has made statements that directly refer to this.
So no, I don’t approve. Obama thinks Catholics are gullible, and as a compulsive liar, he would know. We know this, as workers in the mission for life. The truth is, is that most Catholics, though they are pro-life, are not willing to get uncomfortable for the cause, and I’m sorry I have to say it, it’s like Christ speaking about the Pharisees.
Look, there is a huge undecided sector out there, and they just want to know, it’s “ok,” to vote for Obama. And these videos seal that deal. If all the churches were actively and weekly printing material for crisis pregnancies, if they had been missioning to women for the past thirty years, if they were actively involved in the lives of their young women, helping us when we become unexpectantly pregnant, helping us find resources and connecting us with the couples hoping to adopt in the community, then I would say, fine bring it on. Obama can’t touch us. But Obama, though simple minded and a tool of Cecil Richards, can ply this incompetance on the part of the Church, into his language of false hope. He plays off of ignorance, and that has been the hallmark of the Black Preacher working for the White Eugenecist for quite some time. Had these Cardinals and Bishops watched Maafa 21, I think they would have considered the weakest among us that are being sold up-river by the Obamanation. I just hope for their souls, that they can forgive themselves once they realize that a baby killer is not going to ever have mercy on any lambs of the Church. I realized associating with anti-CAtholics was killing me a few years ago, and I guess I am still realizing it. It’s hard to believe that as Catholics our role is not to only love God and Christ. We are soldiers in Truth, and fighting to preach the gospel of life is hard work, and takes great sacrifice.
I just feel so insulted. That’s how I FEEL.
Mary,
Romney actually ripped Obama a pretty good New One in his speech, and Dolan was laughing at him pretty boisterously from what I saw. Looked degrading to me. I was skeptical of this arrangement at first, myself, but after watching the video…I don’t know anymore.
Listen to the closing speech by the Archbishop at http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com
And All that is right and wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxN4Xv_bF7E&feature=plcp
Denise, Thanks for that background. It looks like, as a Catholic, Gov. AL Smith was personally opposed to the Death Penalty but didn’t think he should impose his religious views on the rest of society. And someone died as a result.
I thought both men had pretty good speeches. Obama might have suffered a little bit because he went second and Romney had used some of the same material.
What I found most interesting is how differently the men approached the end of their speeches. Mitt acknowledged more fully the charitable work that he was fundraising for and Obama only included one sentence about “extraordinary work of the Catholic Church”. Mitt definitely made an effort to align himself with the faithful and it seems to me that Obama made no attempt to do that.
What I really loved was Cardinal Dolan’s speech. He started out funny, but quickly hit home on important issues: religious freedom, charitable help for “un’s” including the unborn, proper role of government. Loved it.
Hi X,
I respect your point of view on this but from what I saw this was a night of people ridiculing each other, and Romney ridiculing the media, and it was all in fun. Of course people will laugh, that’s the point.
I don’t think this is going to placate angry Catholics very much, though I will defer to Catholics on this issue.
I can promise you that anything Dolan said fell on deaf ears where Obama is concerned. Don’t fall for all the happy smiles and backslapping. Obama loathes Romney and Dolan.
Does anyone know if Obama reversed his HHS dictate yet?
Hal says:
October 19, 2012 at 11:20 am
Denise, Thanks for that background. It looks like, as a Catholic, Gov. AL Smith was personally opposed to the Death Penalty but didn’t think he should impose his religious views on the rest of society. And someone died as a result.
(Denise) Both Ruth Snyder and Judd Gray were executed for the Albert Snyder murder. Both were denied clemency by Gov. Al Smith.
There may well have been other executions while Al Smith was Governor. The death penalty was widely accepted at the time period. It could be that Gov. Smith felt a conflict in allowing executions but he allowed them.
This whole Al Smith dinner thing makes me sick to my stomach. Just another photo op for “catholics for Obama.” Sickening.
Mr. Dolan,
Are you a knave or a fool, or somewhere in between?
The picture at the top just makes me sad. That’s the part everyone else will see.
“I don’t see any of those bumper stickers in the church parking lot this year, btw.”
Maybe their owners found a church where the “pastor” doesn’t consider them “lost” because of their political sensibilities?
Are Obama and Romney converting to pro-life now after one evening laughing it up? No? Then what was the point? Was $5 million the point?
I think that’s it. Obama knew this would be a photo opportunity. the undecided voters are the ones that get their facts mostly from sound bites and photographs, and that’s how the Obamanation speaks mostly to their constituency.
How else would Planned Parenthood be able to get away with having EXPRESS lane at their Pasadena location? I refer to their telemed renovation which has a sign on the outside literally reading: EXPRESS.
Mitt Romney is so close to looking stellar. He looks good in a suit. I like his stature. He just needs a little more confidence, not aggression, but just to simply assert that he’s the next leader of America.
I hope he can push his image of prestige and leadership into that next-level category.
Romney’s looking more and more like a knight in shining armor, and Obama’s looking more and more like a creep any single woman would not want to be stuck with alone in a dark alley.
Joan, it could be they went elsewhere, but liberal churches are dying… (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=0).
Meanwhile my church has been listed as one of the 100 fastest growing churches 8 of the past 10 years. People are attracted to solid biblical teaching, which includes upholding the sanctity of innocent human life – made in the image of God.
JOAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How I’ve missed you!! How ARE you??? Doing ok?? How’s your world looking? Tell me.
Jill said…..
Joan, it could be they went elsewhere, but liberal churches are dying… (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=0).
Meanwhile my church has been listed as one of the 100 fastest growing churches 8 of the past 10 years. People are attracted to solid biblical teaching, which includes upholding the sanctity of innocent human life – made in the image of God.
Jill…happy to hear about your church….really….no snark.
However, apart from the blessing your church is to the local community….in the nation at large…..the Protestant church…BOTH liberal and conservative is dying. Year after year…..decade after decade…the percentage of people who claim no affiliation and / or claim no religion/atheist/agnostic grows until we have the data just in from the Pew Research Center which shows that for the FIRST TIME EVER in American History…Protestants are a minority….which unless your church is Catholic….is a Protestant church be default.
Also…..it doesn’t matter that liberal churches are dying…..they are really in effect agnostic anyway….so they even ADD to the numbers of atheists and agnostics out there.
Besides…..most Christians of any stripe in this country live lives of functional agnosticism anyway…..just look at any data….any metric in this country and you will see very easy that the “salt and the light” of this nation is ineffective.
Just ask 55.4 million murdered babies since 1973.
Danny, not sure where you live. But come to TN–we’re growing. Church is absolutely a function of life here. Sounds like you need a vacay.
I am sure this has some sort of prophetic significance.
I was so upset I forgot to ‘Remember the Alamo’.
Fifty two foot tall Big Tex goes out in a blaze of glory!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ZymGBl1Zw
“Dallas is about Big Things and #BigTex was symbolic of that. We will rebuild Big Tex bigger and better for the 21st Century.”
Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings
In order to better reflect the changing demographics of a 21st century Texas, the new and improved replacements will include a caballero, wearing a sombrero, bandolieres dobles, playing a bajosexta and driving a diesel duelly pick-up truck.
The new greeting will be bi-lingual.
Hola compadre, bienvenidos a la fiesta estada de Tejas.
Howdy partner, welcome to the State Fair of of Texas.
Just in case I piqued someone’s interest in the classic Ruth Snyder-Judd Gray murder case, my article about it is here http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/albert_snyder/1.html
Politics mixed with church does one thing…drives people away.
In our efforts to have congregations filled with like-minded voters, we’ll continue to see record numbers of people who have given up on the church. Pretty sad to see.
The snobs with Phd’s told us dialog between Dolan and Obama would be good at the Al Smith dinner.
Wow, does the Catholic church play us for suckers or what.
It’s all good man…
Why would anyone attend a church whose core teachings they despise? Do they come for the pretty windows? The cache of ‘being Catholic’? Why?
Once again, Michael Voris hits the nail on the head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxN4Xv_bF7E
Mary, I am sick that Obama wasn’t chastised more at this event. If they were not going to chastise him them he should not have been invited at all. Sorry Cardinal Dolan, the big tent does NOT include those who support the killing of the unborn you big dummy.
ninek, my guess is it’s blindness and attachment to sin. I don’t know anyone that hates all the teachings, just some of them. The ones they don’t truly understand. I’ve been Catholic all my life but there was a time I was also pro-contraception and pro-choice. Thanks be to God that I finally had my eyes opened.
Ex-GOP, I don’t know about other congregations, but the Catholic Church isn’t seeking “congregations filled with like-minded voters”. She is urging her people to live their lives in imitation of Christ, which means leading moral, holy lives. When government and politics get on the wrong side of morality and justice, the Church must get involved in government and politics.
Courtnay said…..
Danny, not sure where you live. But come to TN–we’re growing. Church is absolutely a function of life here. Sounds like you need a vacay.
Courtnay….you need to get out of Tennessee for a while. While it is great that some churches are growing in the Volunteer State…..please re-read my post …..slowly….carefully….and without the Conservative Christian KneeJerk Reaction….(liberals are kneejerks……we should NOT be).
I said…..IN THE NATION AT LARGE….not TN only.
I was born and raised in Mississippi. There is no more Conservative state in the nation…including TN….than Mississippi….particularly when it comes to abortion rights. Mississippi is the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt.
Yet….infanticide still occurs everyday in Mississippi…..as well as your state as well. But….if that growth in Conservative Churches is as you say it is in the state of TN, then I have no doubt that by the end of the decade there will be no more abortions in TN and practitioners of abortion going forward from the day it is made completely illegal will face capital murder charges.
Or am I being a bit too optimistic? I mean…if TN is having such a Come To Jesus moment and the Holy Spirit is truly moving….(well….He is ALWAYS moving….we just have become so good at IGNORING HIM)…..then I will be proud as a former Mississippian to tip my hat to TN for being the first in the nation to completely ban State Sponsored Infanticide.
As far as taking a “vacy” as means of getting out more and seeing what is going on in the world…..don’t need to. I have lived in Mississippi, Oklahoma, West Virginia, and now Florida for the last 18 years. I travel between 130-150 days out of the year….have been for nearly 10 years…..all over the country….and international…Canada…Australia…..and soon England and France. I was born, raised and baptized Southern Baptist…..I am now Anglican…(Church of England) and confirmed in it as well. In between that….I have attended at any given time just about every Protestant Denomination……I even had been for a few years attending,… when I could,… a Messianic Jewish Congregation on Friday night or Saturday morning.
I know the lay of the spiritual land….not only here in the United States….(and many individual states in which I lived and went to church)….but what is going on in the world. And my anecdotal information over nearly 49 years of life….coupled with nearly a century of data concerning the religious evolution of this country…..makes it plain to me…..regardless of your local “tree” that is doing well….the “National Forest” is rotting away…..forget about the world situation.
the “National Forest” is rotting away…..forget about the world situation
When was it ever not?
Danny, I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties.
I have been out of TN…that’s why I live here.
Sadly, it is because of many mainstream churches like the Episcopalian who embrace modern culture, including gay marriage, abortion, etc. etc. It makes me furious but it is what it is. I have my little sphere of influence. I can’t worry for the whole world. Plus, I guess I’ve just learned how to trust God, that he will bring things together in the end for His Glory.
Fear and anger would keep me….well, like you. And I just am not called by HIM to live that way.
Peace, bro.
Hi ts 7:10PM
I told everyone from day 1 Dolan would be nothing other than a gracious host, which give it to him, he was. I also caught flak for saying this would happen.
Any “chastisement” would have fallen on deaf ears as Obama couldn’t care less what the Cardinal would have to say, and seeing the Cardinal as an appeaser, only views him as beneath contempt. Folks listen to me, I know how these minds work. I also understand what the Cardinal was attempting to do and know what a huge mistake that is when dealing with a personality like Obama’s. You cannot project onto an SPD/NPD emotions and reasoning they have no capacity for.
It was argued the Cardinal was listening to God. Oh, God is elitist? Perhaps it was the Catholic masses who objected to this invitation that truly heard what God had to say.
If Cardinal Dolan and his crew feel justified by permitting this all to come down, then, hey, that’s their prerogative and they’ll have to own it.
However…
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT come back crying to the flock, complaining that HHS and Obama are big meanies so let’s all have another fortnight, fortyear, or fortcentury for freedom to fight back.
For all the huffing and puffing, that sweet photo pretty much shoots down their argument.
And THAT was the problem from the get-go.
^TRUTH^
carder, we need to use every means necessary to stop this contraceptive/abortion mandate; including any church sponsored vigils and rallies. But we as the church members must learn from this and understand the political fallibility of the church.
Courtnay said….
“Fear and anger would keep me….well, like you. And I just am not called by HIM to live that way.”
Obviously you haven’t read my voluminous posts that have caused quite a stir with a lot of folks here…namely my stand against voting in this year’s election…..which I have not done on the National level since voting for George W. the first time in 2000.
In brief…..I will not be swayed by fear of the Boogey Man…..the O’Boogey Man….to go running into the arms of Mitt Romney. I’ve seen that happen since Nixon and Humphrey at the Presidential level and since Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America and George W.’s Republican majority Congress in both the Senate and the House.
Once infanticide became established as the Law of the United States of America, God has judged this nation as unfit to survive. Just as the Old Testament Pagan nations who instituted infanticide and when Israel also did the same thing. The only reason Israel keeps getting restored is that God has a promise to keep for a Remnant…..on Mount Zion….with a personal meeting with Christ Jesus….in order for the Abrahamic Covenant to be utimately to be fulfilled not just for Israel but for the whole world as well…..BUT for the promise that was Jesus concerning His people at the First Advent that will only be ultimately fulfilled at the Second Advent.
Those promises were never made to any Gentile nation….including America. However…..just in case any of you ever entertained the idea that America was the ultimate fulfillment of the Covenant Promises of Israel that was taken away from National Israel after the Rejection and the Crucifixion of Christ…..you had better be prepared for the same judgement and punishment that National Israel received when they fell into national apostasy….which included infanticide, homosexuality, false religions (such as Mormonism) and injustice.
None of you are. And even though you do not like my words…..I think most of you….deep down…at least FEEL that they are true. But you do not know what to do other than vote for an apostate lier….out of fear of another apostate lier.
No…my friend….I do not live in fear. I fear no man….no disease (as a cancer survivor) destitution or homelessness ( bankruptcy….foreclosure…homeless with wife and 5 kids)…..I fear not that this country is even destroyed. I do not like the idea of suffering with her….but so be it…..I’m here…..nothing I can do about it. Except….help those in it as well….and educate them of the true causes of it So perhaps the seed of a more righteous generation can spring forth.
That is….if we even survive to have another generation. And voting for either Obama or Mitt will not help that matter in the least.
Danny, I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties.
LOL……If I went to parties anymore I would be as popular as Jeremiah was in his day.
It should be obvious to serious observers that the Catholic Bishops have for years been partial towards progressivism which is the banner proudly displayed by Democrats. The reason is simple. There is a well-intentioned but at the same time seriously mistaken attitude among many in the Church and in our country that if we level the playing field through a re-distributionist schema the disadvantaged would be better served. Cardinal Dolan referred to these in his closing remarks as the “uns”. The video of his remarks captures the thinking of many in Catholic leadership and, agree with him or not, it is what we are dealing with.
Various approaches to correcting injustices can be argued in good faith, but conservatives point out that massive government intervention has never worked whenever the scope of the involvement, despite the best of intentions, exceeds a limiting safety net approach. Whatever short term gains which might be realized through massive government intervention always leads to more serious problems. In our country one can point to the stunning destruction of the black family since the inception of “Great Society” programs and our now teetering on the precipice of bankruptcy. In other countries where government intruded into almost every facet of its citizen’s lives in the name of fairness and equality the result were persecutions, oppression, and shortages of the necessities of life. Furthermore the supporting principles of re-distributionism run contrary to Catholic teaching on the balancing principles of subsidiarity and solidarity.
It is important to understand that a great many vocations to religious life originated in Catholic families in an era where the Democrat Party was seen as more attuned to working class priorities and values. These are now the leaders of our Church and old loyalties die hard even though the Party has taken several hard left turns in the past few decades. And even before that reaching back at least into the 1800’s with origins predating that there was a controversy of so-called “Americanism” within the Church on the question of separation of church and state.
Many are those (numbered in the millions) who say that the Democrat party left them and not vice versa. In the political sphere we first saw this with the emergence of the “Reagan Democrats”. Even some black congregations are now struggling with their Democrat party allegiance with the emergence of the Party’s embrace of homosexual “marriage” and the revealing platform fight at the Democrat convention where “God” was reinserted into the language over and above the protests of the majority.
As a conservative Catholic I and many others of the same persuasion have been dismayed and at times angered by this uncomely dalliance between many of the nation’s bishops and the Democrat party. Be certain though that many Bishops do not go along with all of this and that their numbers are increasing. Though some of them and a great many of the rank and file Catholics criticized Cardinal Dolan’s decision to invite the most pro-abortion zealot ever to sit in the White House to dine with him we have to be encouraged nonetheless that the event did not end up as disastrous as we at first feared. True, it is bad enough that the event happened and that Obama got the optics that he wanted. But it was not a slam dunk triumph for the President and his opponent also took center stage showing a strong persona of grace and humor, and of ease and confidence.
Hi Jerry,
How could this event have been more disastrous? Obama got the optics he wanted, he played the Cardinal, who is suing him, for a fool. The Cardinal got what? Catholics got what?
5 Million for Catholic Charities!
Wonderful!! My fourth baby and I needed their help when my family did not have insurance. They were AWESOME!!
Hi Mary, (you have some name’ there!)
Often, most people see events not for what is there, but because what they believe was reenforced. Whether the folks are at a convention or a dinner, there is a kind of expectation.
You and most folks here, paid attention to only the Romney and Obama speeches. [Jill’s comments were ‘strange’ to this Canadian. Both Romney and Obama were good. Obama having a slight edge! {His self-deprecating comments about their first debate were hilarious.}
Many Catholics feel very fragile these days and would very much appreciate a good input in the festivities by any Catholic. The fact that this came from Dolan was a wonderful surprise – a real gift!. (I must presume you didn’t bother watching it, or didn’t understand.) There were three leaders and [by far] Dolan was the best man there.
I doubt very much that Dolan even knew he’d be in the mix!
Many Catholics feel very fragile these days and would very much appreciate a good input in the festivities by any Catholic.
I don’t give a good gosh darn about how any Catholic feels these days. They feel fragile because liberalism, the Jesuits, and Vatican II sold them out to a world where one’s main purchase is his “feelings”, not centuries-proven teaching oand doctrine. There were one former governor there, a compromised archbishop, and a self-professed partner to butchery. I live in the South, and I know the old adage that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, but there have got to be millions of Catholics alll around the world wishing that Dolan had slapped Obama on the top of his pointy little head and said, “What is so %#@*&^% funny?
AMEN to that Courtnay
Courtnay,
Have to say ‘guilty’ on all counts. I am one of those ‘liberal-minded, pro-VAT ll guys; with a bishop (when I attended a seminary) who was the world’s youngest bishop, to attend ALL of Vat ll. [BTW that bishop is still alive at 90yrs!]
PEACE & JOY to you and Mary. (Like my other cheek?)
Not a whole lot of peace when the babies are getting slaughtered, John.
Hi Mary:
Believe me, if I had my way the event would not have happened. But in answer to your question it could have been more disastrous if Romney did not “show up”. In fact he did show up and displayed for all present and the intelligentia and ruling class elites that he is of presidential timber and a class act…a force to be reckoned with and respected when he assumes the duties of the presidency. A lot of people got to see a humorous side of him that were not sure if he had it in him. I was especially impressed by the end of his presentation where he basically reached out to Catholics and others concerned about life issues. He used the opportunity to draw clear distinctions between himself and Obama. In my estimation the night ended up a net plus in Romney’s column.
I don’t know what the Cardinal got out of it. I suppose there is something to be said for providing a forum that gives the squabbling candidates a brief time-out. But at what costs? I don’t like it at all.
Its just a Charity Dinner, Dolan is no fool and he is ready to fight. We Catholics are ready to fight. Some cocktails and a few laughs for a good cause doesnt change that. Even Christ associated with the tax collectors and sinners.
Ex-GOP: Politics mixed with church does one thing…drives people away.
In our efforts to have congregations filled with like-minded voters, we’ll continue to see record numbers of people who have given up on the church. Pretty sad to see.
—
Ex-GOP I see it from a completely opposite point of view, but, oddly enough, I could say similar statements, except for a shift in the focus of blame. To me it is the Democratic Party that is driving people out of the Church and not the Church as you imply. And it is the Democratic Party’s efforts to convert Catholics to progressive liberalism or liberation theology that is causing many Catholics to give up on the Church by confusing them about what the true Gospel message is that is taught by the Church. The Democratic Party is hard to see because the Democratic Party has become ugly, a gross version of a once legit political party.
MaryBringsJoy,
I agree but I still wish a little more prudence and discretion was exercised by the Archbishop. I wish he invited the President to his private residence for dinner instead of inviting him to a public forum where he praises the man as being honorable. That is one adjective that seems highly misapplied. I wish it wasn’t misapplied.
I think the President thinks he is a decent enough man; the President simply forgets that he has condemned and assigned millions of human beings/American citizens to death because he has refused and refuses to support prolife policies. He has been brainwashed into thinking that being prolife is equivalent to being a misogynist. I will pray for the President of the United States of America.
MusicBringsJoy, the timing made this more than just a charity dinner. Obamacare stripping away our religious liberty is no laughing matter. Dolan’s invitation is sending the wrong signal at a critical time. IMO not worth the dirty donations.
As much as I don’t like how the Archbishop dealt with this issue the problem and the person I have the most issue with is the President of the United States. It is his policies and position that have caused this problem for the Cardinal to resolve in the first place, it is the sins of the President that disrespect civility and decent politics. If one party and the President is going to support child killing they should expect to be told that they are demeaning themselves and ruining the political discourse, let alone destroying the lives of countless American citizens. It is so crass that President Obama thought he could attend this dinner. What was Mr. Obama thinking? It could only have been evil thoughts, such as thinking about which area of the Archbishop’s back he might put the knife.
Tyler – it depends on how far one puts the borders on the “true gospel message”. Yes (and let me fully disclose I’m not Catholic) – but if the Catholics are saying here’s what Christ says about being his follower, and now we’re going to write a bunch of statements about all sorts of other issues and say you have to follow these to be a Catholic, and if you disagree at all with any of the positions are you a bad person…
It’s one thing to say “here are the core principles of faith in Christ – follow these and agree to disagree on other things (as they are outside the bounds of these core things – they are things that are external to faith in Christ). It’s a far different thing to elevate these external positions to the same height as the core positions…for instance, saying that to be a good Catholic you must believe Jesus rose from the dead, but at an equal level, you must also believe homosexuality is evil and they can’t be permitted to be married at a government level.
See what I mean?
MBJ,
I don’t recall reading where Christ held festive dinners and invited advocates of baby killing for a few drinks and laughs.
As to whether or not Dolan was played for a fool is a matter of perspective. I maintain his efforts to reach Obama will be a dismal failure and Obama views Dolan with seething contempt. I also maintain that Catholics should feel betrayed and outraged.
I think most of you….deep down…at least FEEL that they are true.
Except for me, right? Me YOU KNOW what I KNOW deep down. Have I missed where you explained how you know what I know in spite of my disagreeing with your feelings?
You may be interested in checking out the Catechism of the Catholic Church’s statements on feelings: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a5.htm
You may also like to read this article that talks about Catholics’ moral duties to vote: http://www.ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm
Danny, When you continue to tell some of us that we are idiots for not feeling like you do on this matter, you are telling us to go against our religion and our consciences. Maybe it’s you that….deep down….at least FEEL that we are right on this.
Obviously you haven’t read my voluminous posts that have caused quite a stir with a lot of folks here
It is my take that a lot of the folks here have caused quite a stir with you! Simmer down, re-read your posts slowly and then think and pray about it.
IMO not worth the dirty donations.
I understand your frustrations with this, truthseeker. I struggle with it as well but not as much as I used to. What if those donations turn around and do much good for many people (as I’m sure they do). What if those donations change some mothers’ minds about choosing life? The Serenity Prayer fits here, I think. We can’t change Obama and his followers, but we have at least succeeded in keeping some of their money from going to slaughter innocents.
If a visitor to a Catholic church puts $50 in the collection plate and the usher realizes this visitor is an abortionist, should the usher refuse the money?
Once when I was a bartender, a rich unsavory patron came in the bar already drunk. He wanted to give me a $300 tip (my feeling was, was that he was feeling some guilt about how he got the money but there was no way I could know this for sure and he wouldn’t elaborate to me where he got the money). This man, however, was known in the area for making money by taking advantage of people.
I told him several times I could not take that kind of money but he insisted if I didn’t take it, he would give it to someone else at the bar. I knew if he gave the money to anyone else there, they would most likely buy more drinks and drugs or put it all in the gambling machines. I put the money in the collection plate that Sunday. My parish has earned my trust; I see firsthand the good they do for others.
To me it is the Democratic Party that is driving people out of the Church and not the Church as you imply. And it is the Democratic Party’s efforts to convert Catholics to progressive liberalism or liberation theology that is causing many Catholics to give up on the Church by confusing them about what the true Gospel message is that is taught by the Church.
I totally agree, Tyler. There are CINOs in my area (yard signs and bumper stickers tell me who they vote for) who want their children to get the Sacraments of 1st Communion, 1st Reconciliation and Confirmation, but they don’t think they should have to get their children to Mass or religious education more than a handful of times. They cause trouble and division by whining to others that they are not made to feel welcome in the Church. I used to think the same way. The Church should conform to what I feel works best for me, not what truly is best for me.
Tyler – it depends on how far one puts the borders on the “true gospel message”. Yes (and let me fully disclose I’m not Catholic) – but if the Catholics are saying here’s what Christ says about being his follower, and now we’re going to write a bunch of statements about all sorts of other issues and say you have to follow these to be a Catholic, and if you disagree at all with any of the positions are you a bad person…
It’s one thing to say “here are the core principles of faith in Christ – follow these and agree to disagree on other things (as they are outside the bounds of these core things – they are things that are external to faith in Christ). It’s a far different thing to elevate these external positions to the same height as the core positions…for instance, saying that to be a good Catholic you must believe Jesus rose from the dead, but at an equal level, you must also believe homosexuality is evil and they can’t be permitted to be married at a government level.
See what I mean?
—
Completely wrong. It is because Jesus rose from the dead that his Church – which is his mystical body – teaches that homosexual marriage is wrong and is not a truthful expression of sexual intimacy. Truth, the Way of Truth and truth cannot be separated as you suggest.
It is only together, unified, living as moral members (pun intended) do we become the perfect man. The Perfect Man is the Church, as the mystical body of Jesus, united to Christ and his teachings.
Tyler – so do you believe Peter Gomes is in hell then?
I just looked up who Peter Gomes is. I take it that you are referring to his homosexuality. I can only tell you what my Chruch teaches. Our Church has never declared anyone in particular to be in hell, let alone that people go to Hell if they merely have inclinations toward homosexuality; although Jesus and the Church have said that there is a hell and there will be people in it. The Catholic Church teaches that it is not the temptation to homosexuality that is a sin, but acting on the temptation that is the sin. If having temptations made one culpable all of us are in for an unpleasant eternity. Moreover, Mr. Gomes did not practice (according to Wikipedia) his sexuality so, according to the Catholic Church, Mr. Gomes has not committed a sin.
Furthermore since God is merciful I would guess that Mr. Gomes, like the rest of us, needs to spend some time in purgatory purging himself of his sins.
But my concern needs to be focused on my own sins and the sins of people alive today. I need to help ensure that my fellow brothers and sisters are protected and not put to death inside their mothers womb. I need to be concerned about the state of a politician’s soul who intentionally helps to keep abortion legal. If anyone is going to be in Hell it is going to be these people.
Just to further clarify… the people alive today closest to going to Hell, IMO, are the pro-abortion politicians, they have a better shot than even the abortionists. Furthermore, a mother or father who has had an abortion are far less culpable than the pro-abortion politician. The mother and father who have had abortions are victims, victims of laws supported by pro-abortion politicians, and the Lord will have mercy on the parents. Parents only need to seek God’s forgiveness.
Ex-GOP, how do I tell a pro-abortion politician that they need to seek God’s forgiveness – do you think they will listen?
I don’t recall reading where Christ held festive dinners and invited advocates of baby killing for a few drinks and laughs.
No, but He did invite a man for supper who He knew would betray Him and would then turn Him over to those who would kill Him.
The Cardinal is not fooled by Obama.
Tyler – you need to read more of Gomes – he’s dissected the original text to talk about Biblica interpretation as it relates to homosexuality – and makes the case that the Bible doesn’t say what we think it does at all as it relates to homosexuality.
My only point is, you stated “the way of truth” is equal to the truth. I think there are a lot of subjects well meaning Christians can disagree on as long as they do follow Christ, have repented, and follow Him. I think Christ has set us free – not set up tons of new boundaries to be defined in position papers, with those boundaries being equal to Christ Himself.
Tyler – on your other post – does the Bible not mention greed, pride, and envy throughout the texts consistently? Why do you jump so quick on some topics while ignoring others?
God will judge those folks just fine – he doesn’t need my help and certainly doesn’t need yours.
On your last sentence, first off, I would focus on God’s love for them. Your job isn’t to run around and tell people what they’ve done wrong – you should run around and tell people what Christ has done right. The problem with Christians and Catholics these days are that we’ll go out of our way to tell people where they have stumbled, but we rarely go out of our way to love them. Sad state of the Church these days.
The problem with Christians and Catholics these days are that we’ll go out of our way to tell people where they have stumbled, but we rarely go out of our way to love them.
As Christians, it is our job to point out to others where they are stumbling. If not us, who? If not now, when? Would you knowingly allow someone you love to continue down the wrong path without making them aware that what they were doing was destructive to self and others? I had parents who called me on my wrongdoings and required me to make amends. Maybe they didn’t love me very much though. . . .
he doesn’t need my help and certainly doesn’t need yours.
Then we should just preach the Good News to the starving and tell them to focus on God’s love for them but forget about feeding them, right? After all, God doesn’t need our help.
EG: “ The problem with Christians and Catholics these days are that we’ll go out of our way to tell people where they have stumbled, but we rarely go out of our way to love them. Sad state of the Church these days.”
Oh good grief. Of all the absurd generalizations. Useless.
“Kids these days. Why when I was young…”
“Politicians aren’t as honorable as they used to be. Why, my grandad used to tell me…”
It’s just ridiculous, EG.
As for Gome, are you posing an argument from authority? Gome’s authority?
revision:
Completely wrong. It is because Jesus rose from the dead that his Church – which is his mystical body – is able to teach that homosexual marriage is wrong and is not a truthful expression of sexual intimacy. Truth, the Way of Truth and truth cannot be separated as you suggest.
Not for one second, does the Catholic Church diminish the significance and importance of the resurrection to the Creed.
Ex-GOP do I focus on loving the pro-abortion politicians to the exclusion of loving the preborn children? At what point should a person admonish a fellow Catholic, or instruct a pagan in the ways of the Lord? If they are not Christian, save the enlightened atheists that visit this site, how are these unbelievers going to come to know that abortion is wrong? What argument is going to prove to them that preborn children have value?
Christ loved the least of us, which traditional Christian teaching understands to include the preborn. When I and other Christians remind President Obama that he should not support abortion we are telling him what Christ has done right: Christ loved everyone. And unfortunately in our modern pro-abortion age it seems that we Christians need to re-state the obvious as well: Christ didn’t kill anyone.
As for Gome, are you posing an argument from authority? Gome’s authority?
Rasqual, you have a good eye. That was an excellent observation.
Well put Praxedes.
Hi Praxades,
Excellent point about Judas. However, the Last Supper was certainly no party, and Christ did not exchange drinks and laughs with those who advocated the killing of children, or those seeking to deny religious freedom to His followers.
My point is the Cardinal, however good his intentions, is going to look like a fool in Obama’s eyes. He will be seen by his Catholic flock as betraying them.
Judas betrayed Christ. Peter also betrayed Christ. Christ did not betray is followers.
One man could not live with his betrayal, the other would be forever tormented by it.
Cardinal Dolan seems like he just had one good time.
Cardinal Dolan seems like he just had one good time.
I don’t think Cardinal Dolan can win. If he didn’t attend or invite Obama, down the road there would be those who would complain that he didn’t do enough to try to bring others to the truth or bring them together.
Cardinal Dolan is not Jesus. He is a human just like us.
Hi Prax,
We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue.
I have met people (including Catholic flock) who have complained that the Catholics think they are better than everyone else and who do they think they are for not inviting _______________ (fill in the blank).
Hi folks,
I have had qualms about doing this, but recent blogs on this sight and a whisper in my ear compel me to start. For a number of decades now, I have noticed that Christ’s message is very appealing to many folks, even though their understanding (like mine) is far from complete.
I do have a continuing problem though with the way Americans (Catholics and Protestants for the most part) understand/interpret their faith. I thought: “John, are you crazy?”. That is when I listened to Dr. JIll Bolte-Taylor and her TED presentation.
http://www.drjilltaylor.com
She’s a Harvard-educated neuro-anatomist (brain doctor), who suffered a stroke … and the left-side (speech centre +) was paralyzed for a while. Her experienes reminded me so much of the (mystical?) passages from the gospel & epistles of St John and some of St Paul`s too. (Scripture scholars today would attest that St. Paul`s writing pre-dated John`s Gospel by almost half a century.) Could it be, that these words(phrases) still are typically lost-in-oblivion and mis-understood, is because of perception?
Human brains have two hemispheres (halves). Our brain does everything for us, including what information is truthful/reliable. However, each hemisphere processes information very diferently than the other. It follows that what we may think is correct may in fact be the output(perception) of only one side of the brain. [This difficulty poses a large problem for the ‘truth-seekers’ if their concept of truth lies in the confines of the left hemisphere – which catagorizes, labels, defines, etc all information (even these words).]
Here is a little of what Paul and John wrote. [God tends to hide things (really profound concepts) right-out-front (in very smple innocuous words) like: `in` & `one` .] ‘I (Jesus) am in my Father, and He in me.’ or ‘The Father and I are one.’ or, ‘Be one as the Father and I are one.’. These words almost sound like the person who spoke them was demented, at least completely lacking in logic/dogma. These words (or ones very similar), could be dismissed out-of-hand except, John goes on and on – filling whole chapters with them. So even if you fail to understand, you will not forget that these words actually exist.
Often to explain a difficult concept, a teacher uses a common image to explain. IMHO the image used was a flame. [In John’s/Jesus’ day there were no light-bulbs, so a flame was the source of light …. as in ‘the light shines in the darkness …’] Remember Tyler, our job is to shine The Light of Christ – because He and I are one (it’s really Him who is our Light, He the Flame + me the broken-candle). It is not my job (nor my business, nor Dolan’s, nor Mary’s) to second guess His movements.
There is much to say about this … just hope this helps.
Prax -
I was replying specifically to Tyler’s question “how do I tell a pro-abortion politician that they need to seek God’s forgiveness – do you think they will listen?”
If the person isn’t a Christian – going to them with the goal of shaming them first and then talking about God’s love second (which is the implication I got) – I just don’t agree with that.
I agree with your general post – once you have a relationship with them.
“If they are not Christian, save the enlightened atheists that visit this site, how are these unbelievers going to come to know that abortion is wrong? What argument is going to prove to them that preborn children have value?”
Tyler! I know you have seen Xalisae argue against pro-choicers, even me or Mary or JDC, any of the non-religious people who frequent this blog have plenty of arguments that don’t revolve around Christian theology. I realize they don’t sound convincing to you, which is fine. I hope you do realize that arguments from a Christian viewpoint might sound as unconvincing to the non-religious as you think secular arguments do, right? I agree with you about the humanity of the unborn, but a lot of the religious arguments against abortion don’t mean anything to me, simply because I don’t agree with/understand the theology behind them. I can’t imagine that the arguments would sound any stronger to other agnostics/atheists than they do to me, someone who is already anti-abortion.
Hi Jack,
Yes I have and I like that you support life. If I may I would like to share with you my understanding of the secular argument for the prolife position. I realize that my understanding is most likely not complete and would therefore, humbly ask, if you can, to please clarify and identify my misunderstanding(s).
Currently I understand the secular prolife argument as follows: do not kill preborn children because they are human beings like you or I.
First let me begin by saying that I agree that the preborn are human beings like you or I. However, the problem with the above argument is that it can’t and doesn’t respond to why we should value one’s own humanity or humanity in general. The value of human life is simply “assumed” in the argument. The current crop of prochoicers, such as Peter Singer and the Jill Stanek website poster Doug, don’t accept that humanity has any innate or implicit value. However, these new prochoicers don’t have proof that human beings have no value – they just assume their view that creation is without inherent value is true. Yet this assumption that creation has no inherent value is in itself a value proposition that could be no more proven than the Biblical assertion that all human life is valuable, and made in the image of God. In short, the new prochoicers fail to recognize that all value assertions (including negative value assertions) are metaphysical propositions, and therefore cannot be scientifically proven.
In my humble opinion, I think it would help the prolife movement tremendously if secular prolifers would acknowledge the metaphysical dilemma, or the value problem. If a secular prolifer believes all human life has value that means something. To me, that value assertion is a statement about the universe, about man’s relationship to the universe, and man’s relationship to all creation. In my opinion, to believe human life has values means that person believes in a being that assigned value to human life. In short, to me believeing human life has value means that a person believes in God, the creator of human life.
—-
Ex-GOP please read Ephesians 4:10-16 which talks of the Perfect Man, the City of God as it is mingled with the Earthly City on earth. In more modern translations they refer to the Perfect Man as “maturity” but read verses 14-16 of this passage and it is undeniable we Christians are to grow in Holiness together.
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors,
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ;
14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive
15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity.
I hope you do realize that arguments from a Christian viewpoint might sound as unconvincing to the non-religious as you think secular arguments do, right? I agree with you about the humanity of the unborn, but a lot of the religious arguments against abortion don’t mean anything to me, simply because I don’t agree with/understand the theology behind them. I can’t imagine that the arguments would sound any stronger to other agnostics/atheists than they do to me, someone who is already anti-abortion.
Jack, I really appreciated these above comments and I agree with most of them. I see more clearly the problem some non-religious people have with religious arguments. I think part of the problem is that most people assume that the religious argument is based solely on doctrine, or rather that the religious doctrine is not based on metaphysical truths and logical arguments. Religions especially Christianity identified or accepted that any morality would fundamentally be dependent on metaphysical belief system. The human beings could not escape the need for metaphysical explanations and justifications. This reality is not a flaw in humanity or in reason, it is just a part of life. Modern man denies the metaphysical to his own peril.
Ex-GOP, I have never talked of shaming anyone, especially non-Christians.
I have only stated my views about proabortion politicians. I have not talked about how best to evangelize anyone.
Ex-GOP, what is your view on incarcerating criminals? Is society not showing love to these criminals?
Jack, I think most secular prolifers are more religious than they realize. Their eyes are obviously open, and their hearts are full of compassion – these qualities are a blessing to everyone.
There is no contradiction between atheism and outlawing abortion. The reasons for the anti-abortion laws that prohibited it prior to the old “quickening” standard weren’t based on religious revelations but advances in embryology and the invention of the stethoscope. These scientific advances showed that an embryo is “formed” with a head and torso, arms and legs, by the 6th week of pregnancy and that it moves independently early in the pregnancy. Science, not faith, was what anti-abortion laws were based on.
Denise, I don’t think read you my post from earlier today at 8:23 am.
Jack, my other concern with the ”secular” argument for life is that in some ways it gives credence to some aspects of the prochoice perspective. What do I mean? Well, in the final analysis, a secular prolifer is really saying that the preborn life is valuable because they have determined that human life is valuable. Yet, the secular prochoicer is not appealing to authority and ultimate truth, just their own subjective reasoning. The prochoicer who also appeals to subjective reasoning can simply ignore the secular prolifer by simplying saying that the prolifer’s viewpoint is only a matter of opinion. Jack, how does a secular prolifer convince a secular prochoicer that their description of objective reality is more truthful without appealing to some type of divine authority?
Hey Jack –
Great post at 3:06. Good to see you around, as always!
Tyler – it’s quite easy – when a person begins to understand the love of Christ, it opens up a whole new world – it changes the dynamics of what was right and wrong and what they value in life.
I want to go back to the first assertion I made though.
Politics and the church don’t mix well together (in my opinion). The issue is, there are a lot of issues that matter to Christians. Abortion, marriage, economics of the poor, creation care, war and peace – a lot of issues. Within these issues, there is further disagreement in regards to the best way to solve these issue (for instance, is it better to have a lot of social programs for the poor, or better to encourage people to do more on their own), and furthermore yet, there’s disagreement in regards to how much of the Bible should be implemented in actual societal law.
So when people say that a party has the corner on how the Bible should be legislated, I think they are taking an overly simplistic approach of picking and choosing verses to apply.
When Churches get overly political, they are losing their mission of winning people to Christ, and they are driving people away. Look at the numbers. The main things churches are turning out these days (statistically) is atheists.
So the Black church is driving people away? Where I live, the Black churches are thriving. And they’re often overtly political.
Perhaps ex-GOPers just want to discourage conservative Christians from being politically active.
Yeah . . . that’s the ticket . . .
Tyler: As a Christian, my pro-life arguments are all secular. Oh I’ll cite concord between pro-life and my faith — because I indeed see that the concord is real. But when speaking into the world for life, it’s hardly necessary to expect one’s hearer to accept faith’s propositions before expecting them to respect life.
The idea that pro-life is a weak position is apart from the content of theistic faith is a dangerous notion (ironically a weak position) — so it’s fortunate that it’s also mistaken.
A couple of links Tyler and EG could both stand to acquaint themselves with:
http://goo.gl/T5qSU
Whoops, a second favorite link on the topic is no more. Darn the luck.
Hi Rasqual
Thanks for your post.
The link you provided is broken.
BTW, I don’t expect my hearer to accept theological positions before they respect life; I think that people who respect life implicitly have a theological position, and a theistic one at that, even though some will deny or be unaware of it. (I apologize to the atheist posters for how antagonistic this sounds and is. I don’t mean it to be.) I don’t believe it is possible for the prolife position to be separated from a theistic position – hence, my desire to hear secular arguments for the prolife position. If a secular prolifer can explain how they answer or how they arrived at the idea that human life has value then I will better understand the secular prolife argument and can end this search, until then, the secular prolife position seems to be one person’s opinion.
I also believe that everyone is naturally prolife. Prochoicers have to be indoctrinated into an atheistic position, or at least be provided with enough atheistic arguments about life and creation to view life as disposable and replaceable.
Moreover, I think it is impossible for a person to be without a theological position, because I believe having a theological position is an inescapable part of the human condition (i.e. even an atheistic position is a theological position just not a very logical one in my opinion). Again, I mean no disrespect by these statements. I am willing and eager to hear the atheist arguments that support life and hear how they can assert that human life has value. Secular prolifers please don’t be angry with me, I mean no ill will, please just provide me with a logical secular argument that explains why human life has value.
Rasqual, I realize that you are a fellow theist, but would you be able to provide a convincing atheistic argument that proves human life has value?
“In my humble opinion, I think it would help the prolife movement tremendously if secular prolifers would acknowledge the metaphysical dilemma, or the value problem. If a secular prolifer believes all human life has value that means something. To me, that value assertion is a statement about the universe, about man’s relationship to the universe, and man’s relationship to all creation. In my opinion, to believe human life has values means that person believes in a being that assigned value to human life. In short, to me believing human life has value means that a person believes in God, the creator of human life. ”
That’s your opinion, I don’t really share it though. I don’t think that me believing my life has value says anything about the universe. It’s kind of hard to explain, why I think humans are valuable (I actually think all animals are valuable but that’s neither here nor there). It’s like… I am a human, I belong to this community and have since I was conceived. I am unique, everyone is, there could only be one of each of us ever to exist. I dislike the word “miracle” but that’s what I can’t help thinking when I look at my kids, that such a random combination of genes could come together and make such a unique, special people that can never be recreated organically. So to take the life of a unique person that has been conceived and never let that being experience the world and have a chance at life… that’s a tragedy and crime to me. I’m really, really tired right now so I am not sure I am making sense, but that’s why I personally believe that human life, all animal life actually, has value.
As for actually arguing against a pro-choicer, I am not sure I would go babble on about my hippie dippy view of procreation, lol, I would be much more likely to make arguments from consequences of dehumanization and focus on the humanity of the unborn, and pointing out the ridiculousness of protecting every class of humans but the most vulnerable. Most people aren’t monsters, and most people don’t like cognitive dissonance, so many people can be turned toward the pro-life side by just talking about it that way. I use my personal experiences a lot, which isn’t very comfortable for me but I have had a lot of success. I don’t know exactly what you want to hear, for secular arguments. You’ve seen them before, Xalisae in particular argues from a secular viewpoint all the time on this blog. I don’t know how me reiterating it for you will help, maybe just read some of the threads she’s gone at it on? Lol. :)
And hi Alexandra! I hope you’re doing well and it’s good to see you around too!
Ex-GOP
As you may have surmised from my thoughts on secular prolifers, I believe that the separation of church and state, or religion and politics, is an existential impossibility. It is this existential truth that the founders of America noticed and enshrined in the U.S. Constitution when they said that every human person has the freedom to exercise their religion. To deny human beings this freedom is harmful to the very of heart of the being that is human.
The fact that people (and not just religious people) have different opinions neither alarms me nor makes me side with the party that stresses that disunity by arguing for its inevitability and permanence. Disunity is part of the fallen human condition, as the Bible teaches, but we Christians are nonetheless supposed to strive for unity of belief, a unity that will be finally and only achieved in the eternal afterlife.
Ex-GOP what are you doing to stem the tide of atheists being produced by our Churches?
“I also believe that everyone is naturally prolife. Prochoicers have to be indoctrinated into an atheistic position, or at least be provided with enough atheistic arguments about life and creation to view life as disposable and replaceable. ”
Lol, how do you explain all the Christians who insist that the theology is cool with abortion, then? Honestly, I am really, really not trying to start a fight or be disrespectful towards Christianity at all, but I have always thought that religious arguments against abortion sounded weak, even when I was a Christian (even though I was terrible at being one lol). I mean, I don’t know much about Catholic theology, but I do know that Protestant theology teaches that all innocent or cleansed souls go to heaven, which includes Christians, small children and unborn babies. So honestly, in my darkest hours as a teenager I used to think those babies were the lucky ones, they didn’t have to live in this terrible pain-filled world like the rest of us. Letting go of that thought of an automatic afterlife actually gave me some appreciation for how brief, rare, and unique each of our lives are on this earth, and how terrible abortion is to rip that away from someone before they even have even the slightest chance to experience it. I know that I was missing some intrinsic truths, there, to have believed like that, but I never felt that abortion was as much as a tragedy as I do now as an agnostic. So it isn’t that hard for me to see how some Christians can be swayed to think that abortion is okay, it’s actually more difficult for me to see how my fellow secularists can be all right with it.
I really didn’t mean that as flippant or a slam on any Christians at all, I swear, it’s just something that has always bugged me.
ARGH.
I don’t know why the implicit links created by the editor end up inserting URL escape codes sometimes. Frustrating. So I’ll explicitly create the link this time.
http://goo.gl/T5qSU
Sorry.
Tyler, thanks for the explanatory remarks — many of which I understand and have no brief with. As for atheistic arguments for the value of human life, I think you’re phrasing that wrongly. It’s not that someone embracing atheism — active rejection of God — may be able to make a case for the value of human life. That’s a simple thing to do — one merely worships the creature rather than the creator. But that’s not it. It’s that secular arguments are possible. These don’t deny theistic elements — they merely make no overt appeal to them. And that’s certainly possible. For example, to young men: you created that life — you’re responsible for it. Likewise to young women. Now they may reject that responsibility, but that’s not a failure of the argument. It’s a failure of the person to embrace the argument’s implications, and to avoid the implications of denying those implications (which include accepting that oneself possesses no more value than others might assign to it).
Jack, thank-you for response. Your honesty is going to serve you well in this life.
I have read lots of xalisae arguments and I really like them a lot. She is very good at asserting the humanity of the preborn child. However, she never (as far as I have read her comments) never provided an explanation of why human life itself, humanity, has value. The closest she has come is to provide some version of the golden rule or rational self-interest theory. But she only provided it a very brief and highly personalized version of it. Her argument seemed to attribute value to the preborn because it was human life like herself and that since she may need help one day, she thought she should extend help to fellow younger human beings such as preborns. But this arguments simply skirts the value question, or rather, more accurately, it focuses the value question on xalisae herself, and requires us to ask why xalisae feels her life has value. If her life has no value, her argument falls apart. A sick person who wants to end their life could use xalisae’s argument and say that everyone on earth should be killed because they view their own life as valueless.
None of the above is meant to say that I don’t value the comments posted by xalisae. I do, very much. I just think they only go so far.
I think her ability to remind everyone of the humanity in unique and often memorable ways is a benefit to the prolife movement/community.
Thanks Rasqual, got it. I am not sure if everyone else will. Thanks for taking the log out. It was really irritating me. I am surprised I didn’t get it after reading the recently posted Stanek Sunday quote.
The fact that it is possible to make secular arguments about life doesn’t mean they are the most optimal just the most obvious(in the good sense)/applicable/universal , I will pray that everyone sees/understands this. We certainly have a chore to do if we are to enlighten prochoicers.
Rasqual, do you think secularists understand this? And if they don’t, is there anyway we can help them understand this?
Jack,
You are correct the aborted unborn baby goes to Heaven. The reason Christianity is against abortion is what it potentially can do to the Mother’s soul, the abortionist’s soul, and the prochoice politician’s soul if they do not seek repentence for their involvement with abortion. Forgiveness is easily obtained for those with a contrite heart.
Adults who commit suicide in order to go to Heaven are guilty of the most devious sin of all, the sin of presumption. This sin closely related to the sin of pride and it can tempt all human beings who acknowledge the promise of the peaceful eternal Kingdom to come.
As you pointed out, some Christian churches say that abortion is consistent with Christian theology. First, they are simply wrong and don’t really understand Christian theology. Second, they merely say Christian theology can be consistent and do not endorse abortion outright. Furthermore, no Christian denomination as far as I am aware doubts/denies the humanity of the preborn.
Jack, it would take a twisted metaphysical logic to contort Christian theology into supporting abortion. Like yourself, these Christian denominations baffle me as well. They baffle me just as much as secular prolifers baffle me.
Lol, well I am sorry to baffle you Tyler. I really do try to explain. You all who do believe in God so fervently baffle me, honestly, pro-life or not. I just don’t get it. Wee can work together even without understanding each other, I guess.
Jack as long you can see the logic of the Christian support for the prolife position. Without going too deep, it is rather straightfoward – humans have value because God said so – men and women were said to be very good. God also said humans are made in the image of God.
BTW, technically, without the preborn being baptised we don’t whether they are in Heaven. However, most theologians agree that they are most likely in Heaven, with other unbaptised innocents.