GOP’s pro-life weapon is liberals’ biggest target for 2016
Liberals are smart. They target our greatest weapons. But too many Republicans see our greatest weapons as our greatest weaknesses.
Our pro-life stance is one of our greatest weapons, but the moderates in our party discourage us from knowing how to effectively use our great artillery. The moderates say we need to stay away from the social issues. We can’t, because liberals always bring them up! They know they have to destroy us on these positions before we connect with the culture with them….
Being pro-life is one of our greatest strengths. You know what the big liberal weapon against our pro-life argument is? A coat hanger. A symbol of utter selfishness and self-righteousness. That’s their big gun in defending what they now call a “healthcare choice”…
In short, I’m not impressed or intimidated by rabid women with coathangers, mommy dearest.
~ Pro-life political commentator Alfonzo Rachel, PJTV’s ZoNation, August 20
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Liberalism is a mental disorder
Jill, THANK YOU!!!! I have been beating this into Ex-GOP’s head for couple of weeks now!!! Great wake-up clip for dems/libs/progressives everywhere.
Hillary Clinton – the opportunist: “what difference does it make” sacrificing others for personal power and retreating now hoping people will forget; “standing by” her husband and yet claiming women’s rights; abortion symphatizer and enabler; ”it takes a village” author who raised her daughter with the vision of “it takes connections.”
Barack Obama – the pro-socialist: sacrificing liberty and democracy to push pro-socialist agenda; abortionist symphatizer and enabler; public education destroyer; Chicago politician who did absolutely nothing in Springfield; “dreams from my father” author who exaulted his deadbeat dad but did not honor his mother for raising him before she died.
Hypocrites both.
You should have typed it all in caps Heather.
Nah, everyone knows that the GOP would win in all 50 states if it just gave up on pro-lifers and pushed harder for its economic policies (especially tax cuts). </sarcasm>
Thomas R – you have not. You’ve said a couple of vague statements on a few posts with very little substance. If this is what you were aiming for, you need to sharpen your scope.
I find the argument lacking and off track. The biggest issue is that pro-lifers have the appearance, through their marriage to the right wing, that they don’t care about anything but money after a person is out of the womb. Down with health care, down with SNAP, down with education, down with social programs, down with opportunity.
It is why I’ve had a lot of respect for (some) Catholics that put the message above the politics, and advocate for smart programs and a consistent sanctity of life.
Now, you’ve got the right wing saying “don’t abort your baby that is going to have special needs, but we want to make darn sure that an insurance company can refuse paying after a certain dollar amount so that you’re on your own”.
That sort of thinking is the problem right now. (well, that and the changing country demographics, the tea parties destruction of the right, and the fact that old man republicans keep saying stupid, stupid things, and then people actually stick up for them!).
I encourage all gop politicians to make the end of abortion thier number one policy. I think they should talk about it more than anything else. They should repeat it over and over again, loudly. Please.
Reality, why just gop politicians? Why not encourage all people to make an effort to end abortion?
Have you really not worked that out truthseeker?
Would you like me to explain it to you?
Or are you being….coy ;-)
Truthseeker,
It doesn’t matter what you say. The idea of ending abortion is as abhorrent to Reality as it is to any pro-choicer. Oh, they say they want to lower how many abortions there are, but every time there’s an opportunity to do just that, they freak out.
They don’t believe abortion has led to any problems. I came across this article that links to other articles that have been written by the “Brochoice” movement. This is part of where abortion has led us: http://www.lifenews.com/2013/08/28/brochoice-activist-writes-to-men-on-how-to-convince-a-girl-to-get-an-abortion/
The article it’s talking about discusses how a guy can “convince” a girl to have an abortion. The suggestions were everything from straight up lying to a bunch of other tactics.
MIT – these pro-aborts have no conscience or shame.
Truthseeker,
Like everyone else, they need prayers. That’s why those of us who pray, need to pray.
Pray Pray Pray
That website that the “Brochoice” crap came from is seriously disgusting, MiT. Just pure sexism, they really do think women are put on the earth to have sex with men whenever they want. Disgusting.
If you ladies were ever wondering how you rate on the d-bags scale of “Would I bang her, on a scale of one to ten” look no further! http://cdn.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/pictorialscale.jpg
I find it hard to believe men like this exist, ever find women who give them the time of day, and haven’t collapsed under the weight of their own idiocy and misogyny.
They are an insult to the male of the species Jack. Probably a few other species too actually.
That’s not the type of link I intend to visit.
I’ll bet that 99% of the ‘action’ that 99% of them get takes place in their head and their hand.
I’m reading that website right now in the sense that people rubberneck at car wrecks. It’s amazingly sexist and really, really homophobic. These guys dislike homosexuality more than religious people could dream of.
As if gay or bi men or women in general would want anything to do with most of them. Probably 30-year-olds who can’t talk to women other than their mothers, and blame it on women instead of looking at themselves.
Oh, and the obligatory “It’s just biology! I can’t help being a creep and preying on teenage girls! They have nicer bodies!” It’s all code for “I have to sleep with teenagers because I’m a pathetic rapist and adult women can see through my bull$**t in about five seconds.”
http://www.returnofkings.com/15054/young-girls-are-better-than-women
“These guys dislike homosexuality more than religious people could dream of.” – they probably fear their own latency. Explains why they have to be seen to be ‘conquering’.
night
“How can any smart guy listen to everything a woman says? Filter it out to the most important stuff.
They are here to look at and produce children.”
One of the comments. There were some worse, but that was the best example of how these guys think.
I wonder how I can ensure my daughter never comes within like ten miles of these “men”.
Dear Ex: Vague statements they were not. I have stated this to you before that no substance will evere appease you. You are far too gone to the dark side (LOL). What’s more scary is that you are intent on “the big brother” holding your hand. I will have none of that. And if you continue to propose that the free-market of insurance providers will not be affected when O-Care kicks in in full, I have told you that these insurance companies will be regulated by “the big brother” beyond reproach. This is another medicare/medicaid fiasco in the making.
But, you are welcome to find out first-hand. Meanwhile, good luck with having “big brother’s” enoromous arms embracing you.
Hey Jack, if this website promotes sexual relations btw grown men and underage girls – it is most definitely monitored by the FBI. Their sex crimes unit has many such sites on the radar. Don’t be surprised if on any of their message boards, there is an FBI agent posting messages as “the libido man” or some other catchy moniker. FBI shares this list with law enforcement.
Reality says:
August 28, 2013 at 7:05 pm
I encourage all gop politicians to make the end of abortion thier number one policy. I think they should talk about it more than anything else. They should repeat it over and over again, loudly. Please.
You mock us, of course.
But YES! —
Talk about Gosnell!
Talk about Carhart!
Talk about Karpen!
Talk about Pendergraft!
Talk about Jennifer Morbelli!
Talk about Tonya Reaves!
Talk about Karnamaya Mongar
Show the pictures of their victims!
Invite their survivors to tell their stories!
Show the abortion mob in Texas!
Give the people of America a clear choice: If this is the type of America that we want to be, vote Democrat — defenders of the status quo, a million dead each year.
But if we want safe healthcare and an end to the butchery and abuse of women, vote Republican!
And who knows, Reality — Your boys might win by a landslide. I fear that Americans are already a lot more nazi than we realize.
Went to Facebook ….the virgin Mary should have been aborted ….wow! People out there are really anti God and they are vulgar. I still say we must pray for them. Was called some quite unique names. Especially by self proclaimed feminists. They aren’t pro woman unless you’re choosing abortion.
I never knew people out there hated God so much.
Jack,
Oh I KNOW it’s disgusting. I was utterly appalled reading it. I figure you, my husband, and other men who strive to respect women would find it embarrassing that someone of their own gender would write something so despicable. But this is one of the places abortion has led us. You know that as well as me and other pro-lifers. We’ve predicted it. The fact that there’s a website with PROOF of such a mindset only makes it worse.
P.S. You’re right about the article you posted, Jack. It’s HORRIBLE. Even when I was in my teens & 20’s I would’ve hated to go out with a guy like that (in fact I totally turned DOWN guys like that). I wanted respect and if I thought a guy wasn’t going to respect me, then I was out of there. When I met my husband I was glad he was respectful, kind, and believed in me. Next year we’ll celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary, and to this day he still believes in me. He’s proud of me and thinks I’m beautiful & attractive, even though my teenage years are long past, and my 20’s are slipping into the rear view mirror.
If you friends can endure some truly slimy piggishness from the bro-choice crowd, you need to see this:
http://www.returnofkings.com/16089/how-to-convince-a-girl-to-get-an-abortion
Del,
I posted an article that references that link on this thread in one of my earlier comments. It truly IS horrible.
Wow, Del, really disgusting article, but some of the comments (and the large number of likes they got) were pro-life and very encouraging.
Yeap now I’ve seen everything Del. I am going to skip dinner tonight.
Go for it Del, knock yourself out.
“But if we want safe healthcare and an end to the butchery and abuse of women, vote Republican!” – how many republican presidents have there been in the past 40 years? How many terms have the republicans had control of congress or the senate in that time?
“And who knows, Reality — Your boys might win by a landslide.” – I think its a safe bet, people really don’t like losing their personal freedoms.
“I fear that Americans are already a lot more nazi than we realize.” – I fear that’s a bit far-fetched.
“I never knew people out there hated God so much.” – what makes you think the bro-choice buffoons (or anyone else for that matter) hate god?
After reading the Bro-choice article, How to Convince a Girl to get an Abortion, no one is able to deny that women are pressured, lied to and coerced to abort.
She’s not really making a choice when the person who has more than likely claimed to love her (another lie) then tries to convince (a nice way to say coerce) her to abort.
Another great article to pass around to the female teens that I teach.
Some women are coerced, some choose it. The younger and more vulnerable she is the more I bet coercion is likely.
Any Republican candidate for President = “Sell-out” to the Koch Brothers and Edelson’s view of a life of the privileged elite supported by toiling serfs in the fields. Ah..the halcyon plantation days again boys!
As for abortion? I don’t know anyone who likes it? But where is the money to foster contraception education? A Marshall Plan for national adoption support? And what about all the children the US has killed a “collateral damage” while we wage war around the world? Guess those are foreign children so their lives don’t count right?
Funny how the far right screams about any intrusion of government into every right they don’t wish tred upon until it gets to a women’s right to do with HER own body as SHE pleases. Then it is all government intrusion for them. You want to limit abortion for real and not impose GOVERNMENT upon it, really? Then make true fiscal and economically sound alternatives. That is the free market way by the way, but in this case the right forgets the market in favor of Big Brother and the Reproduction Police. But oh wait, that means spending money on something other than our war killing machines? Dang no money for defense contractors. Maybe even a few % in taxes from the wealthy to really stop abortion. Nope, better to bash women instead.
This debate will never end until the truth is exposed.
Don’t impose your will (tred) upon me as you wish not to be tred upon. If we keep government out of guns (killing machines) then keep it out of all healthcare as well, and that includes women’s bodies.
Otherwise you undermine your arguments with hypocrisy.
Sage,
How does your argument address the claim that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being?
My position is that the decision concerning reproductive rights lies with the Mother. There two lives involved in an abortion, one a potential until the day it is born the other a living breathing, ambulatory human being. As to your “claim” that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being statement. That is too broad a generalization. For most of the human gestation period the only viable human life is that of the Mother, the fetus exists solely off of the Mother as it evolves. The “human being” you speak of does not exist as there are too many variables that could interfere with the birth which would be impossible without the Mother anyway.
This is a complicated issue far beyond the “killing” argument as I ask you where is your justification for killing very real human children as collateral damage in military exploits? My position is that ALL murder, death, killing is a sin and a shameful reflection on civilization. If you are truly against the death of potential humans via Mothers who choose an abortion where, I ask, are the systemic alternatives to abortion such as easy, smooth, national adoption services, thorough reproductive education and contraceptive services, etc?
The right’s potion to dictate morality as the Reproductive Police and allow government the power to force a female to do as they say with her body is hypocrisy ion the face of all the other don’t tred on me positions held by the right. And legislating one side’s view of their morality only means abortions go underground into dark, dirty squalid holes where both fetus and Mothers die.
If , as you say, abortion is killing a human being, than you tell me your solution beyond just saying NO, can’t do it or we …what….lock you up, imprison you or force you to give birth, perhaps force an operation on you at gunpoint if need be than hand over the baby to you for a life of poverty and neglect? No what is your realistic answer?
Tell me of you national scale alternatives on adoption, reproductive education and services and support for Mothers with unwanted children. Show me the billions of dollars diverted from creating missiles, bombs and machines to kill humans to save human life and end abortion forever and I will wholeheartedly agree with you.
Ok so show me…don’t just dictate your morals and your world view to me.
and support for Mothers with unwanted children.
Legal abortion promised us there would be no more unwanted children. What went wrong?
It is fun to equivocate but facts are much more difficult. Any difficult issue such as abortion is not easy. So besides legislating your view and morality at gunpoint how do you really stop abortion as a practice when millions of women have unwanted pregnancies. Do you think any same individual likes the practice of abortion? I am ashamed to live in a world where that is the BEST solutions we can offer women.
Once again I ask you…show me your solutions, real world solutions do not merely pontificate from a pulpit or simply say NO. I have shown you some of my ideas (universal adoption with support), diverting some billions from killing machines to saving human lives instead, intensive education on human reproduction, use of contraception to avoid abortion sin the first place and placing the rights of w women to her OWN body first, not the federal or state government.
I thought abortion was supposed to stop infanticide
What does this have to do with anything?”
“I thought abortion was supposed to stop infanticide.” Do you know what infanticide is?
I suggest reading the definition carefully. And as to stopping that practice, as well as abortion, please list your solutions? I am still waiting.
“And who knows, Reality — Your boys might win by a landslide.” – I think its a safe bet, people really don’t like losing their personal freedoms. –
Are you serious tmeister in your response to Del or do you lack the capacity to reason? We live in a pseudo-democracy where our “personal freedoms” have been severely restricted by our commander-in-chief ever since he took over. We are controlled at every step by our “big brother:”
– if you have tmobile or verizon for cellular service your call records are shared with the feds.
– the patriot act has severely restricted you in terms of banking and flying and moving about in general (you are fair game for all sorts of restrictions through this act). It is not meant for the terrorists, whom O seems to be more concerned about than American citizens.
– democratic party redistricting for votes and bipassing elections when their politicians retire (Chicago style politics so dear to all dems in the country now) and political dishonesty in general out of Washington.
– pro-socialistic healthcare policies.
– No Child Left Behind public school system law “tweaked” by O’s admins to severely restrict educational freedoms.
– pro-abortion and infanticide.
Methinks that by “personal freedoms” you as always are only referring to the last bullet above. If you for one minute think that democrats are synonymous with personal freedoms, you are way behind the curve.
You much way too much Fox Blues Thomas…. And you apparently drank the Koolaid long ago.
1. Personal freedoms – yes it is all evil Obama who took our freedoms. No help from Congress or past Presidents such a “W” and his wars of democracy? Sir, take the blinders off and realize BOTH parties are complicit in building the Big Brother State that I concur exists. Don’t just dump on the democrats, you Elephants share the blame and guilt there my friend.
2. The Patriot Act was signed into law on October 26, 2001 by President George W. Bush. President Obama extended the Act in May 2011 when many of the original provisions reached their sunset. So POX on BOTH houses!
3. Redistricting? Really? And Republicans don’t redistrict frantically in the face of changing demographics? Have you seen the Gerrymandering of districts in North Carolina? Do some research. Whichever party holds power redistricts to retain it. That is American politics friend. Right and Left.
4. Socialist healthcare? Really? With private insurers as the exchange options not the Guvment? You do understand this is “Romney/Mass care” extended? A creation of the Heritage Foundation. Two central themes such as individual healthcare responsibility (mandate anyone?) and Medicaid to cover the uninsured were born from the Heritage Foundation. Wisely, at the time, they realized our current system of throwing the uninsured into the ER for mandatory treatment just raised all of our premiums as hospitals and doctors recouped their costs. That is, unless you mandate that those illegal immigrant Mothers give birth on a sidewalk somewhere? But how does that jive with your Pro-Life argument? Not very nice is it?
5. No Child Left Behind? Really again? That was Bush the younger and Edward Kennedy’s masterpiece.
6. Now onto abortion and infanticide. Who is practicing infanticide in America right now? The baby must be born and then killed and that is murder so let me know who is doing that so I can call 911. As for abortion…scroll up.
Stop preaching and show me your solutions to end abortion other than by brute force or being a dictator. I agree with you on PERSONAL FREEDOMS, no more so than with a women’s freedom in her own body. Free from state and government intervention.
I HATE abortion and I am willing to work to end it for real, not pontificate. Show me your ideas and solutions and I will show you mine.
And as to stopping that practice, as well as abortion, please list your solutions?
Foster a culture of life where all human life is legally protected — from conception to natural death. Lock up anyone caught performing an abortion or giving out abortion pills and require counseling for the mom (and dad if he was involved) who pursued the abortion. People are already allowed to drop of babies, no questions asked in our country, so you have zero argument.
If the woman above killed her child before he was fully out of her body, should she still be prosecuted? Couldn’t she just claim that she smothered him before he was totally out of her body and that she did a self-abortion? Who are you to deny her rights to reproductive freedom? Didn’t she just save herself hundreds of dollars going to an abortion clinic? I could have stabbed all of my children during their births before they were fully out of my body. If I had done this Sage, what do you think should have happened to me?
Killing or advocating the killing of humans will never make you free, Sage.
I wear the Elephant badge with honor Sage. But I do prefer to be compared to the African Savannah elephant. Asian elephants are just too small. If you are not careful I may expose my ivory tusk….
Praxedes, you are preaching to the choire. Sage is just a member of a garage band so her drum roll may drown your message.
The No Child Left Behind law was recently “tweaked” by O minion Duncan who could not even handle the Chicago Public School System before he was nepotized to Washington. You don’t get around much Sage.
Your right, Thomas. I wish Sage would quit smoking the sage. She needs a twelve step program I’m afraid. I hope the folks close to her stage an intervention.
“My position is that the decision concerning reproductive rights lies with the Mother.”
This is question begging as it assumes that abortion is a legitimate moral decision and falls under the category of “reproductive rights.” But that is teh very thing we are questioning.
“There two lives involved in an abortion, one a potential until the day it is born the other a living breathing, ambulatory human being.”
I’m not really sure what you mean here by “potential” life. Certainly it is biologically alive and biologically a member of the human species. Is your criteria for life “being born”?
” As to your “claim” that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being statement. That is too broad a generalization. For most of the human gestation period the only viable human life is that of the Mother, the fetus exists solely off of the Mother as it evolves.”
I claim that it is a human being. I do not claim it is viable. The question is- why tie viability to moral worth? Because something cannot live on its own I can therefore kill it? I think this is the position that needs to be argued for. There needs to be a reason why I can kill something if it can’t live on its own but I (presumably) can’t kill something because it can live on its own. But I am not viable in the middle of outer space or at teh bottom of teh ocean. Those facts don’t seem to imply that I can be killed just because the environment in which I exist is hostile to me. In fact, the embryo when it is inside the mother is in exactly the place it should be to be viable. You are essentially arguing that because taking the embryo out of the environment it is supposed to be in will result in its death, therefore we should be allowed to kill it. But this moral principle does not seem to have any basis in reality. What other kinds of people can we kill solely based on teh fact that they would die in an environment where they don’t belong?
“The “human being” you speak of does not exist as there are too many variables that could interfere with the birth which would be impossible without the Mother anyway.”
Again, i don’t know what you mean by human being. Scientifically it is a human being. I can cite you any number of scientific texts to verify that human development begins at the zygotic stage. Again, I think your main thesis is that the embryo does not have a right to life because we don’t value it since it is not viable, not that it isn’t a human being.
“as I ask you where is your justification for killing very real human children as collateral damage in military exploits?”
When did I argue for this? Suppose I did argue for this. How would it address the claim that abortion kills an innocent human being? In other words, is your justification for abortion teh same as your justification for “collateral damage”? Or are you saying that if I am against collateral damage then you’d be against abortion? I’m trying to understand, beyond a lame “you’re a hypocrite!” argument, what war has to do with abortion as far as determining teh morality of abortion.
“If you are truly against the death of potential humans via Mothers who choose an abortion where, I ask, are the systemic alternatives to abortion such as easy, smooth, national adoption services, thorough reproductive education and contraceptive services, etc?”
How does it follow that if I say “action X is wrong” I must provide some sort of alternative to action X? Do I need to have an alternative solution to be against the war in Syria? Am I a hypocrite if I say “I’m against teh war in Syria, and I also don’t know what should be done instead”? In fact, whether or not I am a hypocrite has no bearing whatsoever on the question of the morality of abortion. Whether I adopt 100 unwanted kids and give all my income to helping low income families or whether I do nothing, either way it does not affect in the least the answer to the question of whether or not abortion is moral.
“And legislating one side’s view of their morality only means abortions go underground into dark, dirty squalid holes where both fetus and Mothers die.”
I claim that action X is wrong and dangerous, and hence I support a law that makes it illegal because it is wrong and dangerous. Someone, knowing that it is illegal, engages in action X anyway and hurts themselves doing it. How is it my fault that person X hurt themselves engaging in action X after I told them it was wrong and dangerous and made it illegal?
Not to sound so unsympathetic to these women, but just to show why the “women will die if abortion is illegal” is not a logically compelling argument. In fact, I have exposed it as an argument totally from emotion.
“If , as you say, abortion is killing a human being, than you tell me your solution beyond just saying NO, can’t do it”
Again, if I claim that action X is wrong, how does it follow that I need to provide an alternative or solution to the problem caused by action X?
“lock you up, imprison you or force you to give birth, perhaps force an operation on you at gunpoint if need be than hand over the baby to you for a life of poverty and neglect? No what is your realistic answer?”
Realistic answer to what? You have not posed teh question carefully, but I assume you mean an answer to the question of how we would enforce this. People who undergo abortions would be put on trial the same way anyone else who commits a crime would be put on trial. I don’t have to “force” anyone to give birth because it happens naturally. That’s like claiming that I am forcing you to digest food if I say you can’t vomit it up. It happens automatically, There simply is no forcing involved. Rather, it is telling them a certain action that they ought not to engage in. If they do, there will be consequences just like the breaking on any other law.
“Tell me of you national scale alternatives on adoption, reproductive education and services and support for Mothers with unwanted children.”
I’ve already addressed that I am under no such obligation. Again, one does not have to have a solution in order to point out a problem. Killing people is never a solution, regardless of the difficult consequences.
“Ok so show me…don’t just dictate your morals and your world view to me.”
I didn’t dictate anything. I began by posing a question, a question which was designed to show that your original argument is question begging because it doesn’t even attempt to interact with the main claim that the pro-lifer makes.
Really though, abortion is of course an answer to a problem that was created by the sexual revolt. The problem that abortion is addressing is that of unwanted pregnancies, which in turn is only a problem because we have totally shattered the relationship between sex and babies, and sex and marriage. If sexual actions were confined to marriage, like we have always argued they should be, and people realized that children are the natural result of the sexual act, then none of this would be a problem. So the real world solution is the one that we have been posing since before this whole mess started which is: keep sexual actions confined to marriage and remain open to life.
Yes I know, “that’s not realistic, people are going to do it anyway, etc.” So when I offer a realistic solution that everyone should be able to do, taht just takes self control, they so “no.”
Wow! Hit a hot button did I? Good. Get out of your rote comfort zone and explain exactly to me how YOU would eliminate abortion. Now, do not use the Guvment or Police or any coercion as I hope we ALL believe in real personal choice and freedoms.
SO far all I have heard from you is preaching the party line. Here is one idea….
National Comprehensive Adoption Support…funded by diverting 26 billion from the US defense budget. That 26 billion will pay for pre-natal healthcare for the Mother, the birth and a child stipend for the first 5 years to the couple that chose to adopt a baby the Mother could not afford to raise.. Now that would be a REAL alternative to an abortion.
Woooo…you Elephants say…26 billion! But how many missiles is that…what about bombs to kill children as collateral damage? Umm, it is 5% of the last defense budget…5%. And that is the BASE budget not counting the current wars on top of that.
OK..there is a non-coercive solution to put into play…ya’ll game or are you attached to your missiles and bombs? Hard to offer real choices other then a simple “NO” ain’t it?
Sage, did you miss the part where I said a mother can drop off her baby off ALIVE and he/she will be given a good home?
I guess you did because you are rambling again. Put down the pipe.
Killing or advocating the killing of humans will never make you free, Sage. Break the chains. Or maybe you like to be held captive.
“Dropping off your baby Praxedes?” Where at an ER so State Social Services in all their glory can intervene? On the curb? At a church…hopefully not Catholic. That is your solution? BTW Sage is an herb and not THE herb ya’ll apparently doobie up to and rant and my name refers to the definition of Sage as “a stoic or wise person”. A lost cause here I see.
What about my plan on national funded adoption using dollars diverted from killing machines? You like killing machines AND you have the gall to preach Pro-Life? Really again? Life is all about pre-natal to ya’ll?
I am STILL waiting for real solutions to abortion other than party-lie rhetoric, a big “NO” (just say NO), using the police and state as clubs and thugs (really very freedom orientated of you) and useless rote arguments. I don’t like seeing women have to choose as well. SO give them a REAL choice will you?
hopefully not Catholic
How very tolerant of diverse religions you are!
If I had stabbed my children in their cranial soft spots when their heads emerged from my body but before their rears and legs emerged, what do you think should have happened to me, oh stoic and wise person?
You do understand that the Catholic Church has a major issue with Pedophilia? In fact they have paid out millions of dollars of victims of Priest abuse. Sorry to ring your bell but that ain’t very Christ-like to me. In fact, given Jesus really seemed to care for innocent children I believe HE is mighty ticked off with said church and priests. So, yep, not very tolerant of that.
Stabbing kids, I’d hope you chose the adoption option. Ooops, but that means diverting money from killing machines right Praxedes? Can’t do that as if a few thousand innocent kids overseas get blown up in the interest of national security and the military/industrial complex’s bottom-line so be it, right? Better read up on the Republican President Eisenhower on that one.
Still hearing no solutions only rhetoric here. Maybe that is Ya’ll’s problem, huh?
If I had stabbed my children in their cranial soft spots when their heads emerged from my body but before their rears and legs emerged, what do you think should have happened to me, oh stoic and wise person?
Or did I hit a Hot Button?! LOL!
Your LOL is a bit misplaced as you have yet to answer one question I have made Praxedes? You like national adoption over abortion Paxedes? Yes or No?
Can you fund it with 5% of the defense budget? Yes or No?
What is your personal stance on the killing of innocent lives overseas in wars? Too bad they were in the way of our national interest or at least contractor profits? OR perhaps a loss of life we should be ashamed of?
This is why your arguments are weak on pre-natal life. Either it is ALL life or it is none at all. So give me YOUR solutions Praxedes? I have waited ALL day now.
Lol, billions of dollars to fund adoption of all things. Haha.
There are something like 20 adoptive families to every baby that’s put up for adoption in the US. Far, far more demand than there ever was supply. A woman who wants to give her child to an adoptive couple to raise will have zero issues finding a couple. At all.
I’d much rather your “5% of the military budget” go to help single and low income moms and dads who wish to keep their children and need help, or mothers and fathers who are having a rough time and need mental healthcare, or other needs to help them parent properly.
But all that’s besides the fact. You don’t have to have any type of “plan” in place to oppose abortion, you know. You don’t have to have liberal economic policies (though I personally think they help) or have some type of plan.
The whole “what’s your solution huh?????” is like legalizing domestic violence and murder because we haven’t figured out how to stop it. I mean, people are ALWAYS going to have marital problems, Sage. Who are you to say that a man shouldn’t break his wife’s nose because he can’t deal with his issues? Who are you to tell that woman she she can’t hit her husband over the head with something because he wasn’t doing what she wanted? It’s just ridiculous. If something is violent and bad for society, it should be opposed. Now, we can argue all day about how to deal with the inevitable women who will still seek abortions when they are illegal, but that doesn’t mean making it legal and accessible is a solution, at all.
And don’t be silly. Have you ever even talked to a Catholic (I’m not Catholic btw) or looked at what they believe about human life? I don’t agree with everything they believe, obviously, but you really can’t fault the Church and their stance on life. It’s a very consistent ethic. So it’s really dumb to accuse Catholics of magically not caring about dead children from drones or whatever, I’ve never met any practicing Catholics who would not be opposed to things like that. It’s not really a war-profiteering religion.
The only bad thing about their life ethic is they don’t include animals. :(
Wow Jack..better sit down and breathe! Ya” seem to light up doobies so chill OK. You just MADE my point. Adoption IS the OPTION. So FUND it will you. Answer my questions:
1. Do YOU support a comprehensive National Adoption to Abortion funded by 26 billion federal dollars? Yes or No?
2. The money will be diverted from the defense budget BTW…the US has killed MANY innocent human lives. You do understand that? Yes or No?
Where in HECK did you start breaking women’s noses Jack? Is THAT how Ya’ll are? Wow, I’m glad I do NOT know where you are. I have simply posed this question ALL day as God is my Witness (and HE is)…bets pray now.
“Show ME YOUR solution to abortion that do NOT require State thugs and abridgment of personal liberties and freedoms?” Ain’t that the Elephant Way?
I have offered ONE of my MANY ideas to REALLY stop ABORTION (which is the point here ya’ll). I hear nothing back at all from you but NOISE.
I agree that many Catholics seem to be good people Jack. Let;s forget their pedophilia issue for now as it is not a part of the abortion discourse. I erred in a movement of fervor I guess. BUT innocent children DID get hurt there so that remains.
I agree with most everything Catholicism says until they start dumping on pregnant women. If that really RICH faith were to offer billions to help transform abortion into adoption as a norm I would say ‘hallelujah!’ How about a partnership between Catholicism and the US to fund National Adoption?
That would seem to make up for a lot of wrongs by BOTH would it not?
1. No. Like I already said, adoption is pretty well funded and there are plenty of couples willing and able to take babies in. And it’s simply not going to happen that mountain of girls and women are going to relinquish and not raise their own baby, adoption is rare for a reason.
2. I’m fine with taking from the “defense” budget. I don’t agree it should go to adoption programs. I don’t support making girls feel forced into giving up their babies because they can’t see any other options. Screw me, eh?
3. I think it’s funny you’re accusing everyone else when you apparently don’t understand what an analogy is.
4. I’m not a Republican nor particularly conservative, so you’re really just flapping your gums. I find people who are so fascinated with their own intelligence to be… less than bright, generally.
Omfg the Catholic Church assists more adoptions than literally anyone. They also provide more charity to low income people than most other organizations. You’re arguing a point that is blatantly false.
Making adoption the norm instead of abortion is a terrible, terrible goal. The norm should be parenting your own child, and adoption should be a choice only when that’s not possible.
There’s no more pedos in the Catholic Church than any other organization involving children, and quite a bit less than some (like the public school system). Not that what happened was okay, because abuse is never okay, but it’s not the issue you’re trying to paint it out to be.
Sage, Jack’s point in discussing breaking noses is to illustrate the principle that just because someone opposes action X, it does not follow that they have to have a solution for action X. Put it this way: whether you know it or not, you seem to be arguing with the following hidden assumption in the background:
(*) If you oppose action X, then you must be able to provide a comprehensive solution to action X.
The point is, we do not believe that proposition is true. Jack attempted to provide a counterexample to the above proposition, successfully I might add. As I see it, there are three possibilities now:
1. You are assuming a variation of proposition (*) and I have incorrectly stated it above as (*).
2. You are indeed assuming proposition (*) but do not believe Jack has provided a counterexample.
3. We are incorrectly interpreting your “what’s your solution” gimmick.
I have to believe 1 of the above 3 is the case. Please identify where our misunderstanding is to help us better figure out your position. Otherwise, we see no compelling reason to believe proposition (*) which appears to us to be necessary to believe in order to entertain the “what’s your solution” gimmick.
Sage, If I had stabbed my children in their cranial soft spots when their heads emerged from my body but before their rears and legs emerged, what do you think should have happened to me, oh stoic and wise person?
Or did I hit a Hot Button?! LOL!
Thanks Bobby, you’re always so much better than me at politely explaining my positions lol.
Whoa, Jack. Mind the acronyms. We’re not that old and out of it. ;)
Disagree on the “no more pedos in the Catholic Church than any other organization” statement Jack. That adds to the idea that we have MANY issues with life and children WAY beyond merely pre-natal.
Excuse me it is Ya’ll preaching about how we need to end all abortions. If everybody was ready, willing and able to raise their kids we would not even HAVE this website Jack. The goal here is to make abortions illegal…right? You Must have your baby.
A National Adoption Option to an abortion is a perfectly logical solution for those mothers that so choose Jack. I would also go further and add funding to help Mothers KEEP their babies. Yes, call me crazy, but I would pay for babies lives over bombs and missiles any day….would YOU?
We have had a MAJOR breakthrough where you agree to take 5% from KILLING machines to fund LIFE. I will go along with the idea we can use these funds to support Motherhood over abortion, and adoption. Good idea. Now we are getting somewhere.
Yes, I know what an analogy is Jack. But an insult only hurts me not the unborn, so no harm done.
I do like to “flap my gums” on websites like this that preach one-sided and limited rhetoric outwith looking at reality and producing real world options. I am not particularly intelligent but your insult is forgiven. Abortion is a tough subject to really address.
But I have yet to receive a solution here other than “NO”. We may have broken a little ground with Jack and his idea to give up 5% of the killing machine budget to help limit abortions for real. But no real answers yet.
“But I have yet to receive a solution here other than “NO”.”
I would just like to point out that the only solution that will cost no money, that will take absolutely no governmental or local groups to organize, the one which adheres to the purpose and nature of the sexual act, the one that could all but wipe out abortion overnight, and one that simply requires people show self control and restraint is dismissed a priori. This is the solution. There is no other.
1. You’re simply, demonstrably, wrong about the “more pedos in the Catholic Church” thing. Completely wrong. No one is going to take you seriously if you make easily disprovable statements like that. Do some research. Independent (non-Catholic) organizations have shown that the abuses were about on par with a lot of organizations, and quite a bit less than places like the public school system. It’s not even debatable, considering the rather extensive record keeping the Church did. Btw, I was abused in a Protestant church, and I have friends who were abused in foster care and public school. Pedophilia and child abuse isn’t confined to the CC and this insistence on it being so is harming victims.
2. You’re just rambling and ignoring everything I’ve said about what I believe about adoption vs funding for young mothers and fathers to raise their own children. A National Adoption Solution is contrary to human nature, really. Have you ever heard of the Baby Scoop Era? In the fifties and sixties, when abortion was illegal, many times young and unwed women had their babies taken from them, sometimes really forcefully. This caused major mental health problems and heartache for millions of mothers and babies. Adoption is fine when it’s freely chosen, but the fact remains that most people feel attached to their children and only a small percentage will choose adoption when given support and resources to raise the baby on their own. I think anyone who thinks that millions of women are going to adopt out their children must not have kids themselves.
3. I can tell you never talk to pro-lifers. It’s not a “major breakthrough” that I would take money from drones and unnecessary wars to fund programs to help struggling parents. That’s something I’ve literally always believed. You have a cardboard cutout opinion of what a pro-lifer is in your head, because you’ve never bothered to learn what any of their opinions actually are. It’s really kinda ridiculous and I don’t know why I’m bothering responding to you.
4. There are plenty of “real” solutions to abortion. Bobby mentioned one, supporting single parents financially and emotionally are another. Literally dozens of ways that abortion can be illegal and society won’t collapse, lol. You’re not producing real world options, either, you’re producing “gotcha” questions that don’t actually “get” anyone.
Sorry Hans!
Bobby, I believe you don’t get human nature at all. Other people are not like you. Given our culture, our media, music and movies. Everything that is the US today. It is naive to think ‘Just say NO” works.
It does not and will not. To REALLY end abortions as a choice we need to offer better choices. That is how a free society works. I will not reiterate my responses today as I am tired. Believe me, preaching does nothing, ends nothing, saves no lives.
There are plenty of real world solutions, many more than one, to abortion. To REALLY end abortion as a choice. And in America is MUST be about a personal choice IF we honor our freedoms and Constitution at all. I have presented one or two ideas, I have MANY more. All require $$$ but Uncle Sam blows more $$$ daily on killing lives than we know. How about a little $$$ to HELP and start an end to abortion as a choice for real? Provide much better options and help everyone?
That is hard to contemplate isn’t it? Because it requires real work and not preaching. It requires solutions and an acknowledgement that respect for life transcends abortion to every life everywhere.
I hope one day this will end. But without real truth and understanding, we will always be at cross-purposes. And the innocent will die…from every conceivable cause, worldwide.
Jack…You have never answered my questions…scroll up and say Yes or No. I have laid out a sensible idea that scares you because it requires reduction of the military budget.
If you actually read my responses I agree that supporting parenthood on a national scale is better than adoption. How about a three tiered approach:
1. Funds to support raising kids using defense funds versus an abortion
2. Funds to support adoption is that is parent’s choice
3. Funds for contraception and reproductive education to teach what sex is about and limit unwanted pregnancies
All I still here is NO Jack…What exactly in one sentence is your answer to end abortions?
Are you joking? I’m probably the most anti-military person who posts on this blog. Again, you’re making assumptions about what people believe, because you have some card-board cutout model in your head of what a “pro-lifer” is (pro-war, pro-GOP, anti-social welfare, religious, etc), so you’re completely ignoring evidence that not all, not even the majority, of pro-lifers think like that.
I never said people will do it. I said it will work and will be moral, consistent with the nature of the sexual act, not cost money, etc. i.e. there is no GOOD reason why it can’t work. There is, of course, a bad reason that it won’t work. And that is because of selfishness and hedonism. So granted, I have proposed an option which is in direct conflict with the desire to live a self-absorbed, conceded, and wicked lifestyle, I realize that most people will choose the latter. I refuse to work around the problem. “Oh, you really enjoy you, huh? Well, let’s see if I can come up with a solution that still allows you your hedonism.”
But, as I have already pointed out in careful detail, one who is against a certain action is not obligated to provide a solution to the conflicts that arise by outlawing that action.
I just think it’s funny when people come on this blog and “propose real world solutions”, like we haven’t all heard literally everything they can come up with.
The Catholic Church is actually very supportive of pregnant women. As a Catholic (and a mother) I felt A LOT of support for me as I went through my pregnancy. I had many prayers, many people offering me help and support. I even received blessings from priests for a safe delivery and healthy pregnancy. I couldn’t have been more loved by my faith and the people in my faith if I tried. And this support is something I’ve seen offered to any pregnant woman.
The RCC doesn’t support abortion because it goes against the dignity of the human being. It goes against the 10 Commandments. Jesus said “Let the children come to me.” But He didn’t say “Exterminate their lives” or “potential life” first.
For the record I think the whole “potential life” argument is weak. Nobody questions whether or not a pregnant cat has living and growing kittens inside her. Nobody thinks a horse has a potential foal. They say “My cat is going to have kittens” not “My cat is going to potentially have kittens.” Why should animals receive so much consideration and not human beings?
The minute human egg and human sperm come together growth begins. We all had to start SOMEWHERE, and this is the way human life has its very beginning. To say it’s POTENTIAL is to negate what’s already happened and what’s already happened is conception of a new human being. POTENTIAL for a new human being is the act of sexual intercourse. Conception is the result of that potential when a human male and human woman engage in human sexual intercourse. Once conception has happened the potential is gone. It is NOW a new human life. What happens to that human life determines whether or not it continues with its life inside or outside the womb. Miscarriage could happen, but the INTENT on ending that human life through abortion is the problem. A miscarriage where there was NO intent on ending a life is a sad horrible accident, an intentional miscarriage through abortion is a travesty because it means the mother or someone close to the mother intended for that human being not to continue his or her life for whatever reason they came up with. It shows a lack of respect and love for another human being simply because of their location. (Which is a form of prejudice, if you think long and hard about it. If someone went on to say that a poor person was less than a human being–or a “potential” human being just because they didn’t live in a mansion, people would scream bigotry and prejudice against the person who was calling a poor person less than human nor “potential” human).
On the subject of adoption: I’ve always been a supporter of adoption. I’ve known people who are adopted. Growing up, my family worked with adoption agencies to help them out. If I could afford to adopt, I would. In fact, when presented with a situation where the choices were abortion or adoption, I gave the woman information on an adoption agency I knew was a good one.
The idea that abortion is the savior of the “unwanted” child problem has been proven false. There are still “unwanted” humans out there (I put it in quotes because one person’s unwanted baby is another person’s WANTED baby). In fact, I have yet to see abortion solve ANY problems at all in the long run. It’s what has been termed a “permanent solution to a temporary problem.” A woman won’t be pregnant forever–in fact only 40 weeks. That’s less than a year. In the grand scheme of things, a short time period.
As I mentioned before in an earlier comment there’s a whole blog post on some blog where the author of the post is suggesting ways on how to convince a woman to get an abortion. One of the suggestions the author makes is to lie to get what they want, and then once the woman aborts their child, to dump the woman. They suggest the guy use any means necessary (in so many words) simply because having to pay child support or step up and take responsibility would infringe on their lifestyle (Yes, let’s encourage people not to take responsibility for their own actions, that’s done so much to help and improve society–please note the sarcasm). If this is the mindset people are being led to with abortion, then remind me what good it’s doing?
Thousands of human lives have been lost to abortion. We have NO idea what these human beings would’ve become because they weren’t given the chance to show us. Some amazing folks have risen from horrible situations. For example artist Leonardo Da Vinci was a great artist who was (to quote the movie “Ever After”) “the bastard son of a peasant”–which I researched to verify). Albert Einstein had a speech issue. Author Mark Twain’s family was poor.
Some bestselling authors struggle with learning disabilities. A fantastic teacher I had in high school was dyslexic (yet incredibly intelligent). Stephen Hawking is disabled–yet he has a brilliant mind.
I mean I could go on and on about different people who have contributed their time and talents to the world who weren’t perfectly fine or who had issues. But nobody would dare say Hawking was less than human just because he’s disabled. (What if his mother had aborted him? The world would’ve been minus a fascinating thinker).
Abortion is a form of “cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face”. Sometimes it’s not the greatest of circumstances. Sometimes it’s really tough, but if we abort the baby just because of those things, then what does that say about us? Some people have done great things in the face of adversity and you don’t know what amazing things a human can accomplish if you don’t give them a chance to show it. And abortion takes away that chance from the in-uteral human being.
Jack,
I just want to say, thank you for defense of Catholics. As a Devout Catholic (who abhors pedophilia) I appreciate you stepping up to the plate. My hat off to you.
And that…Jack is why abortion continues today.
Maybe look in the mirror one day and see if you can really do something other than bloviate.
Mother in Texas? Do you support 5% of the defense budget from missiles and bombs to kill people to support unwed mothers are their babies? WWJD eh?
Jack…almost got somewhere on the 5% defense budget and support for unwed Mothers with unwanted babies. Not there yet as you can’t say yes or no to national adoption as a real alternative and real fiscal support for mothers. Too much Guvment I guess. But OK on the drones and killing children I guess?
Bobby? Yes, fantasies of people behaving unlike humans in America are great. It won;t stop abortion though. Yes or no on the 5% idea?
Mother in Texas? Do you support 5% of the defense budget from missiles and bombs to kill people to support unwed mothers and their babies? WWJD eh?
Jack…almost got somewhere on the 5% defense budget and support for unwed Mothers with unwanted babies. Not there yet as you can’t say yes or no to national adoption as a real alternative and real fiscal support for mothers. Too much Guvment I guess. But OK on the drones and killing children I guess?
Bobby? Yes, fantasies of people behaving unlike humans in America are great. It won;t stop abortion though. Yes or no on the 5% idea?
The point Jack is making is that people will come on here and will talk about anything, ANYTHING other than whether or not abortion is the killing of a human being. Poverty, access to contraception, war, GOP, hypocrites, tort reform, adoption, and on and on and on. It is understandable, as I too would rather talk about anything else than how I justify the unjustifiable.
“Yes, fantasies of people behaving unlike humans in America are great.”
What does this mean? I’m not engaging in the sexual act now, and I’d assume you aren’t either. Are we not behaving like humans at the moment?
“It won;t stop abortion though.”
Yes, I already said that most people will not comply because of hedonism and self love. If that’s the crossroads we’re at, there’s not much more that can be said.
” Yes or no on the 5% idea?”
Sure, whatevs. Since I answered yes, does this mean you’re pro-life now?
“Not there yet as you can’t say yes or no to national adoption as a real alternative ”
Now you’re just lying. I literally said “no” to this idea. I would prefer a different model, as I already outlined.
Adoption is well-funded and there is much demand for it from the adoptive parents side already.
“and real fiscal support for mothers.”
Another lie.
“Too much Guvment I guess. But OK on the drones and killing children I guess?”
Lol I’m so, so anti-government and pro-drone and killing kids. Hahahahahaha. You’re actually cracking me up now.
I thought this thread was about Hillary? Can we get back on track and discuss all the reasons we shall not vote for her come 2016? Thought I’d just ask. LOL.
And yes – Hillary is pro-abortion…
Sage I would like you to outline, with proof, of what you do to help struggling parents plz and ty. What you personally do, btw, not some grandiose plans of what you think other people should do. I mean, I realize that pro-choicers are the be all and end all of helpful and caring, so it should be hard for you to explain how much of your week you spend volunteering, how much of your salary you donate to non-profits, etc.
Can we get back on track and discuss all the reasons we shall not vote for her come 2016?
You bet!
Reasons not to vote for Hilaryous in 2016:
1. Because people like Sage will be voting for her.
2. Because folks like Tmeister will be voting for her.
3. Because folks like Ex-GOP will be voting for her.
4, Because her sunroof leaks more than a little.
5. Because she supports killing innocent children.
Also, I have to say, nit even mentioning my argument as to why we don’t need to justify a world plan to end abortion above, that I think we’re all called to different things in ending abortion. I think there is nothing unreasonable, in fact I would argue it is the default position, to say that one’s practical way to end abortion depends on their talents and abilities. Volunteering at your local CPC, donating money, etc. I feel my contribution is to help intellectually ground the reasons for being pro-life and for rejecting abortion as immoral. If I can reach just some people over the internet or in my community, maybe they decide not to obtain an abortion or they convince a friend not to. That’s my great plan- doing my small part.
It’s no different than environmental concerns. It would be utterly foolish to reject all arguments in favor of protecting the environment if the one making them didn’t have a whole-world solution to it. Furthermore, it would be foolish to reject the claim that “we can actually protect teh environment if everyone just recycled and shut teh water off when brushing their teeth” (or whatever simple task is requested). Those who do their part, at their local level, in whatever way their talents dictate, whether it be time, talent, or treasure, should not be condemned for having no real world solutions.
Bobby Bambino has presented things in such a fashion I see no need to add anything! :-)
I would venture to say that the USofA is 75-80% conservative, socially!
We just need to wake up these people who stay home and not vote! They have to be made to realize that THEY can make a difference at the voting booth!
It’s NOW a matter of life and death for us!
Thanks Praxedes: your 5 points are 100 percent on target!!!
Hi Prolifers. Please go back to the subject at hand Hilary and how to win with a pro-life candidate in 2016. Everyone please brainstorm an approach to wake up people about what she really stands for. Just stop feeding the troll and see what we can come up with. Jack and the rest of you prolifers have some great responses on this blog and I would love to see your ideas.
Hilary the infamous winner of the Maggie Award-who stood flat-footed, smiled, hugged the Maggie Award and lauded how wonderful PP was as she accepting the award from Dead Babies R Us. Can we expose her allegiance to PP? The same PP who ignored the whistle blowers from PP of Delaware who reported the peek-a-boo abortionist who sang hymns to the women about how sinful they were while he aborted their babies, the filthy conditions, the unreported STD testing, the Tonya Reeves homicide at PP in Chicago where they let Tonya lay there for 5 hours bleeding to death with a perforated uterus because they refused to call an ambulance so they wouldn’t “look bad”. How about during this ad they quote her saying ‘WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?” again and again? Please I would love to hear your ideas and have us brainstorm on this topic. I’m going to bed now but maybe we could work on this tomorrow. Those who are Christian prolifers please pray for creative ideas and wage spiritual warfare as well.