The perfect age to die: 75
Seventy-five. That’s how long I want to live: 75 years….
[L]iving too long… renders many of us, if not disabled, then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived. It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic….
My father illustrates the situation well. About a decade ago, just shy of his 77th birthday, he… had a heart attack, which led to a cardiac catheterization and ultimately a bypass. Since then, he has not been the same. Once the prototype of a hyperactive Emanuel, suddenly his walking, his talking, his humor got slower.
Today he can swim, read the newspaper, needle his kids on the phone, and still live with my mother in their own house. But everything seems sluggish. Although he didn’t die from the heart attack, no one would say he is living a vibrant life. When he discussed it with me, my father said, “I have slowed down tremendously. That is a fact. I no longer make rounds at the hospital or teach.” Despite this, he also said he was happy….
But parents also cast a big shadow for most children. Whether estranged, disengaged, or deeply loving, they set expectations, render judgments, impose their opinions, interfere, and are generally a looming presence for even adult children. This can be wonderful. It can be annoying. It can be destructive. But it is inescapable as long as the parent is alive. Examples abound in life and literature: Lear, the quintessential Jewish mother, the Tiger Mom. And while children can never fully escape this weight even after a parent dies, there is much less pressure to conform to parental expectations and demands after they are gone.
~ Obamacare architect, and brother of former Obama chief-of-staff Rahm, Ezekiel Emanuel, The Atlantic, September 17
[HT: Kelli; photo via The Atlantic]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
the perfect age…to cut off medical care to the elderly?
Reading between the not-so-subtle lines for the REAL message…
PS…so is someone going to “take out” my 80 year old mom and 84 year old dad???
SCARY!
Let’s just wait till his 75th birthday and ask him about this again. Somehow I think he will have likely changed his tune.
I encourage people to read the whole article that this quote links to – he clearly talks against things like euthenasia or cutting off care to the elderly – so vanessa – nothing to worry about!
Except for Paul Ryan – he might take out your parents! :-)
This guy is an oncologist.
That is terrifying.
And honestly, I think if I wrote something about what a pain my aged parents were, they might be a tad offended.
I don’t know why I’m continually amazed at the age discrimination that is so pervasive among liberals, but I am. You don’t want to be too young (in utero or even up to a year old, Peter Singer-style), and you don’t want to be too old, because then you’re just burdensome to them.
Kel –
What discrimination – specifically, is he advocating for? I missed it.
ex-GOP suggests there’s nothing to worry about with this gentleman publishing his “wish” that we all embrace his vision of a world with no one experiencing decline, lack of usefulness, imposing on others, and just get rid of Paul Ryan types and let the state take care of those most significant in our lives who impose on a 0-75 utopia.
Weirdo name guy – I’m asking specifically, as I asked Kel – what is he actually suggesting from a policy statement that has you scared?
I read most of the actual article – and have read Paul Ryan’s plan – and will tell you if I were older, I’d be 100 times more scared of Paul Ryan.
Sheesh, God forbid someone lives a life that’s not 100% “vibrant” by Mr Emanuel’s standards! Who cares if they’re happy! How dare you live a sluggish life and cast a shadow over your grown-up kids??? Die die die!
What if someone who is half that age, say 35 years old and doesn’t live a “vibrant” life due to illness, poverty or other misfortune? Should they just go and die too?
Both of my grandmas are well over 80 and struggling with their health, but I would never wish they would rather be dead, I love visiting them and hearing stories from the years passed, and seeing their eyes light up at the sight of their great-grandchildren. We have a neighbor who is a scientist, still remembers WWII, has a very sharp and brilliant mind and is a joy to visit, yes he is diabetic and just had his leg amputated, so I guess he just won’t be able to be “vibrant” again, right?
Did anybody actually read the whole article?
Anybody?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Bueller?
The National Health System in England has a protocol to withdraw all support (including food and hydration) and put people on a morphine drip until they die. This guy and his ilk see the NHS as a model for the US.
Some people just cannot take off the partisan blinders.
Paul T –
Source?
Quote?
It’s like everybody put away their ability to reason and read and has written the article in their head that they believe has been written.
this fellow has no sense of human dignity. He cannot imagine that there is dignity in growing old, especially in company of the ones you love.
A rancher retires his beloved old horse out to pasture. Zeke Emanuel doesn’t believe his father deserves that respect, and now he doesn’t desire it for himself.
Del –
I actually believe he has a heck of a lot more human dignity than many out there – probably some posting on this thread – heck, maybe you.
I don’t know about others – but I’m a Christian – and I’m increasingly disturbed by the quest in society to never die – to simply continue on as long as possible no matter what the cost. So we have this society in which people are popping pills, going through crazy surgeries, and trying to hold on to every last second because they fear the other side of life.
And we’ve got these families that say sure, 90 year old grandpa better get a new heart because he paid his taxes, and now they want him around another year or two to stick him in a home and largely ignore him because it will sit better on their conscience.
I know my future is safe and one day I’ll die. Do I want the government speeding that process up – nope (and he agrees) But I also agree with his basic premise that after a certain time in my life, I don’t want to go through crazy hoops to extend life just a bit more.
Again, I would be way more afraid of Paul Ryan than this guy.
The problem isn’t that we slow down as we get older. The problem is younger people using their own fears and insecurities to wish away the people who remind them: we all start out vulnerable and we get vulnerable again as we get older.
Ex-GOP says:
Del –
Again, I would be way more afraid of Paul Ryan than this guy.
We know you are afraid of Paul Ryan. We don’t know why.
For my part, I am more afraid of the mounting national debt than I am afraid of Obamacare’s death panels.
The debt is a clear and present problem that my children and grandchildren will suffer for. Heck, I might even still be around to see the economic collapse.
But never fear — Obama defeated Ryan’s plan with his Great Promise of free contraception. (Well, paid for by our mandatory insurance premiums. Most people can’t tell the difference between “free” and “we took your money so we could buy it for you.)
I don’t care is Mr. Emmanuel is seeking to form policy out of the 75 guideline….this might be one of the saddest things I have ever read. I mean this seriously: what a sad, sad man. Who got his soul?
“And we’ve got these families that say sure, 90 year old grandpa better get a new heart because he paid his taxes, and now they want him around another year or two to stick him in a home and largely ignore him because it will sit better on their conscience.”
Have you ever considered for one tiny moment that when you recognize these families, it is YOUR responsibility to get off your darn duff and visit grandpa? Or talk with grandpa’s family to encourage them to get it together?
It seems to me that you have made it your whole life’s responsibility to ream out people who oppose the killing of babies and cheer on those who idolize it. It seems you are obsessed with death on some level and this means you are missing out on so much in life.
“But I also agree with his basic premise that after a certain time in my life, I don’t want to go through crazy hoops to extend life just a bit more.”
A bypass is a “crazy hoop”? Is taking out a cancerous tumor crazy? How about radiation and chemo? Crazy only if you are 75 and older? Emanuel looks older than my dad who is 75 so maybe Emanuel should think of foregoing any appointments with healthcare professionals from here on out. I’m going to base my opinion about the worth of Emanuel’s life based on how he looks, not on how old he actually is.
The difference is, though, is that you are speaking about what you don’t want for yourself, and Emanuel is speaking for what his father and everyone else should adhere to.
Del –
Sorry – I’ll explain on Ryan. To control Medicare spending, Ryan wants to turn it into a voucher program – so give seniors money, and they can go pay for coverage themselves (instead of the guarantee). The rate of the voucher increase over time though is lower than anticipated costs, so economists say that it won’t cover as much as traditional medicare has covered, meaning some seniors will have to pick and choose what expenses to pay, and medical stuff might not be something they can afford. Ryan has changed his plan a few times, so who knows if she’s tried working that part out – but that was his plan during the last election.
Obama didn’t actually run on the health care plan when he trounced the ticket Ryan was on.
Courtnay –
Read the article. I beg you people.
Read the article.
Prax –
Very dramatic day for you. My entire’s life mission? A dozenish posts a week on a board, and now it is my entire life mission? It reminds me of my four year old when she declares some un-calculated absolute. Love it.
On the rest, you’ll have the read the article – I didn’t see anything where he said he’d forego all care after 75 – in fact, he says the opposite.
Furthermore, he doesn’t advocate policy regarding this – he just says that this is his plan, and lays it out. Everyone else is jumping to this paranoid state of policy regarding this.
At some point though, we will have to look at policy. As a nation, we spend $170 billion per year, or about 30% of all medicare spending on the last six months of life. I don’t know the nationwide rate, but I know in NYC at a medical facility, 5% of all heart surgeries are on people who are 90 years old plus. http://cardiac-surgery.med.nyu.edu/news/in-news/new-york-hospital-5-heart-surgery-patients-are-over-90
But we seem afraid to even have the conversations.
Heck, we have a guy who wrote an article that said for him, he’s not going to go through anything dramatic after age 75 because he doesn’t fear dying. That has kicked off about a half dozen plus messages from poor readers on this site who now think all old people are going to be hauled off and shot (or something similar). It’s crazy.
Well, I did read the article.
It boils down to life is not worth living after 75. And I don’t buy it. My grandma just passed away at 100. My mom is 75. my mother in law 80, my father in law 82. The author is absolutely free to make his own choices. However it would be interesting to see what really happens to him. Would he really refuse surgery for cancer if diagnosed after 75? Somehow I think that he’d come to make an exception. Your choices in how to treat illness, injury and disease are YOURS ALONE.
I can’t see the point of the article if it is not meant to convince all of us of his viewpoint. And it is just a few steps from that to refusing treatment to those not worthy.
Scary and sad.
Sharon
You are my favorite poster of the day. You read the article!
Thanks for confirming that he’s making his own choice, and that others can as well.
I only disagree with your last point. A singular man declaring he doesn’t want radical treatment after age 75 is more than a few steps from congress passing a law to refusing treatment after a certain age, a President signing that law, and medical facilities implementing that law. Unless those steps are being taken by a giant, or the stay-puft marshmallow man (from Ghostbusters).
Ex-GOP says:
September 20, 2014 at 2:28 pm (Edit)
Del –
Sorry – I’ll explain on Ryan. To control Medicare spending, Ryan wants to turn it into a voucher program.
I see. You aren’t afraid of Paul Ryan…. You disagree with a detail of his plan’s proposals.
our basic problem is that government is spending a trillion dollars more per year than we are collecting. That’s about $25,000 per year per taxpaying family of four. As a result, we have to cut everything — including Medicare. All the things that you and I care about and demand for “free” are going to have to be cut and paid for, out of pocket. If you and I care about healthcare for the poor and elderly, we are going to have pay for it with money from our own pockets.
Our other choice is to watch the economy collapse in catastrophe, and everything the government subsidized will be gone. Social order may also collapse, with widespread looting and mayhem and starvation.
But if society remains intact, we will still have to use the money from our own pockets to pay for healthcare for the poor and elderly. That part is inevitable.
Since our nation lacks the will to discipline ourselves, we are in trouble. Our best insurance is to invest in our children and extended families. The large families and small villages who band together will be the ones best able to survive the Great Collapse.
Del –
I 100% stand behind what I said – I think people should fear Ryan’s plan more than anything in this article. The article doesn’t talk proposals. Ryan’s did. He wanted to cut back on spending that would ultimately lead to the death of people.
I agree with parts of the rest of your post, though I don’t think we’re on the verge of all living in bunkers. We also don’t have to cut everything. We could cut some things and we could raise taxes. We could raise taxes and cut nothing. Ultimately, we need to do some of both.
What I fear though is that the Democrats don’t seem to understand that spending needs to be regulated, and the GOP believes scratching the back of rich people and spending groups is more important than the deficit. Heck, even one of the most cost cutting, smartest thing in the health care bill, the GOP twisted into something it wasn’t (death panels) and fought against economic sensibility.
It’s very, very clear that this article was written to be a persuasive piece. I don’t buy into Ezekiel Emanuel’s vision of what makes life valuable. He’s free to make his own healthcare decisions, now and after he turns 75. I hope he’s spectacularly unsuccessful in convincing others that the natural slowing down that comes with age and the supposed loss of “creativity” makes life less worth living.
And honestly, his American immortal sounds like a strawman to me. Perhaps these people really do exist, but I certainly don’t know any.
Ex-GOP says:
September 20, 2014 at 2:56 pm (Edit)
Del –
I 100% stand behind what I said – I think people should fear Ryan’s plan more than anything in this article. The article doesn’t talk proposals. Ryan’s did. He wanted to cut back on spending that would ultimately lead to the death of people.
Why would anyone die? We would just have to find a better way to take care of people, other than borrowing money for future generations to pay.
I agree with parts of the rest of your post, though I don’t think we’re on the verge of all living in bunkers. We also don’t have to cut everything. We could cut some things and we could raise taxes. We could raise taxes and cut nothing. Ultimately, we need to do some of both.
What I fear though is that the Democrats don’t seem to understand that spending needs to be regulated, and the GOP believes scratching the back of rich people and spending groups is more important than the deficit. Heck, even one of the most cost cutting, smartest thing in the health care bill, the GOP twisted into something it wasn’t (death panels) and fought against economic sensibility.
Nobody thinks that we will be living in bunkers — until it happens.
I am under the impression that Democrats favor the rich far more than Republicans do…. but that’s a quibble. They both favor the rich, and they always will.
We can agree that the “death panels” line was pushed by the Republicans because it resonates with voters so well…. whether or not it is actually true. My personal fear of the single-payer option is that it will inevitably lead to rationing and denial of care. Sure, we can watch one payer easier than an array of insurance providers — but we won’t be able to make it budge from its bureaucratic decisions. (If that were possible, Soviet Russia’s care would have been stellar.)
Del –
If somebody skips their heart medication because they can’t afford it anymore, they could very well die. That’s the consequences of saying “we need this much to treat the medicare population, but we’re going to pay less and let them figure out how to close the gap”.
I don’t worry about the rationing as much because we’ve had it for years and years in this country – it’s just economic rationing.
Emanuel is speaking for others when he said,
“We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic”
Emanuel should speak for himself. HE sees the sick and/or elderly as feeble, ineffectual and pathetic — not all of us do.
ExRINO, you really should read my posts before you bring me up during your incessant blathering fests.
Maybe your time would be better invested if you looked into adopting a grandparent for your four-year old. Maybe a 90-year old with a new heart would enjoy spending time with a little one. Think about taking along a muzzle for yourself though. No one wants to hear from some Dark Cloud about how money spent on their transplant was a waste.
Ex-GOP:
I did read the entire article, as you suggested. I can’t help wondering what you were smoking when you read it.
The entire piece is a manifesto in favor of the utilitarian ethic as applied to people. The major thrust is that people are only valuable when they’re contributing to society. If you don’t actively contribute, if you’ve slowed down and are concentrated solely on enjoying your family and what time you have left, and especially if you have to be cared for by others, your worth is questioned, and you are a burden. That is what he is saying, however he tries to sugar-coat it.
You keep saying that this is just Emmanuel’s own opinion about what he wants for himself. But he does apply it to policy — only in hints, but hints are enough to see where this is going. He laments we’re spending so much on chronic care for the “worthless” elderly, while younger people who are “contributing” to society are going without. Is this really an acceptable basis for our medical ethics?
As you keep saying you are a Christian, you must be aware that it is not. Our worth is based on our innate dignity as human beings who are made in the image and likeness of God. That is ALL we need to be of worth to our fellow humans. It was Emmanuel’s utilitarian ethic gone crazy that led, by way of eugenics and euthanasia for the unfit, to the slaughter of millions in people of the “wrong” race in Nazi Germany. It was, of course, all necessary for society. And we seem to have learned absolutely nothing from that horror. I say let’s not even experiment with that again.
Yes, Emmanuel says he opposed to legalized euthanasia. But that’s what they always say in the beginning. That is how they soothe people, introduce the idea gradually. It’s already happening in Europe. First it was euthanasia except for the terminally ill, then for those in pain, then for the depressed, then for children, then for anyone who wants it. And just you wait; the need for the patient’s permission is going to go, for the “good of society.” Let’s stamp out the seeds right now, before the poisoned plant has a chance to grow.
Come on, no political party is worth this kind of willful blindness.
(I must admit Emmanuel makes a very good point about the need to concentrate some serious medical care bucks on reducing premature births and the U.S.’s shockingly high infant mortality rate – but this is completely against the tone and logic of the rest of the piece. How does he know if any of these children will contribute to society? And what if they have some serious medical condition that makes them a burden? If they have Down Syndrome will it be down the chute for them? I don’t know. Perhaps as a person he’s still better and more humane than his beliefs).
Well people age and lose their faculties at different ages. I am 56 and people think I’m much younger. Maybe it’s true that “black don’t crack!” This cougar intends to roar well into her seventies. Hey, there’s lots of cute 60 year old cubs around. Grrrrrrrr!
Oh, and too bad no one has told Pope Francis that at 78 he’s over the hill! He’s hinted he may have only a couple of years left; of course he was joking, but he recognizes his mortality without letting it slow him down. He may not get around the best in the world, and his pains may mean he can’t genuflect at the Consecration any more, but what a treasure he is! Oh, my goodness – he’s 78? And slowing down? And only the most influential and admired person on the planet! And he says again and again that we should learn from the elderly, that they do contribute just by their long life and their wisdom. This is the Christian ethic.
And I also think of brave Cardinal George of Chicago — who today handed over the reins of the diocese to his successor. He is 77 and has been carrying his fight to the death against cancer for eight years. At the press conference, he joked that his new medication is making him walk funny and said he was planning if he is able, to go to Rome and work along with the Pope and Cardinals in his Congregations until he’s 80 (retirement age). And that he wants to keep up his pastoral work to help the new bishop. This is the Christian ethic.
Their philosophy? Do what you need to do for your health, leave everything in the hands of God, and keep on fighting, keep on doing what you are called to do.
Emmanuel’s philosophy: Lay everything down when you’ve lived a good life, no doctor, no medication, and wait for the end.
How paltry his philosophy looks beside theirs!
He is right to decry the idea that some have now that we should look to earthly immortality through medicine. But the thing he wants to replace it with is just as bad if not worse. Western society has totally lost the wisdom the Christian faith has to give it in these matters. The future of medical ethics doesn’t look pretty. I pray society turns around before it’s too late.
Lori, I could kiss you. EXACTLY.I’m at work, and was going to take a stab at this in a while, but you nailed it, girl.
Ex, I read the entire article. What Lori said.
“He’s hinted he may have only a couple of years left; of course he was joking,”
This reminds me of when me and my sibs were kids and we would try to trick our mom into committing to do something knowing she kept her word (to take us somewhere, buy us something, allow us to stay up late, etc.)
Kid: “Mom, can you take us to Disney Land next summer?”
Mom: “I don’t know. I might be dead by then.”
phillymiss, you crack me up!
[…] Hat tip to Jill Stanek for this article by Ezekiel Emmanuel. It is really chilling. […]
Thanks Courtnay! I was thinking while writing it – “Hey, I’m on a roll.” :-)
In fact, I have already added and edited some, and turned it into a blog post. That pingback just above is me: my blog is On Pilgrimage. I had forgotten it would show up here until I came back just now.
I want to live in a world where you are not valued by what you bring to the table; you’re valued because you ARE at the table.
Each life is precious and protected, conception til natural death.
How interesting that so many other cultures place such value in their old people. The village elders, the tribal elders.
Asian cultures treat their old people like gods.
They must have some silly notion that people who have lived longer actually know more and have much to share.
“I want to live in a world where you are not valued by what you bring to the table; you’re valued because you ARE at the table.”
Alleluia!
Lori –
Thanks for the post – but again, you take the article about 10 steps too far. I’m not sure if it’s Fox Political Entertainment Channel that is ruining everybody’s ability to stay within the framework of a conversation without going WAY down the slippery slope. I’m launching an investigation. He says as flat out as it can be said – he’s against euthanasia. And yet half the board has gone rabid mad claiming he’s about to open death camps for old people. Seriously – what does he need to do? State he’s against it? Oh yeah, he did.
Back to the article – I think he goes too far in discussing creativity and other cognitive abilities
but
the basic premise that science has added years to our lives, but that doesn’t necessarily mean quality years – that is worth talking about.
NOWHERE does he advocate killing people. Heck, he himself is quite fine living more years. The simple premise that after a certain age, it probably isn’t worth going through crazy efforts though – what’s wrong with that?
I mean, you feel quite okay giving me a tongue lashing on viewing everybody’s worth as equal – and I hope you walk that walk. I hope you see the death row inmate equal to a newborn baby. I hope you see the immigrant turned away by rabid protestors – I hope you see them as equal to your own family.
I’d be interested though – if a 90 year and 5 year old are both near death, waiting for the same organ, and the 90 year is next on the wait list – you wouldn’t hesitate in giving that organ to the 5 year old?
Ex-GOP: I encourage people to read the whole article that this quote links to – he clearly talks against things like euthenasia or cutting off care to the elderly – so vanessa – nothing to worry about! Except for Paul Ryan – he might take out your parents!
Exactly – read it in context…
Ex,
You can certain rule out Fox News as an influence with me, since I don’t even own a TV.
You are mighty quick to think the whole thing political. Do you always think in political terms? No, I’m talking about principles.
Emmanuel believes in the principles of utilitarian ethics. Even if he doesn’t say or intend to say out loud what the principles he’s advocating will lead to, there are a hundred others out there who are already saying and thinking them, and willing to take the thing as far as it will go.
I agree he did say that he’s against euthanasia. I don’t have any reason to think he isn’t sincere. But it never stops there. Once again, others will be there to say what he doesn’t, to make the obvious application. I say let’s not even start.
You want me to walk the walk? Once again, you don’t even know me. I do assure you I see the death row inmate and the newborn baby as equal, since I have always been against capital punishment, and I see all the immigrant children as my brothers and sisters. (I only wish I owned a house that would take them in, but I’m basically living in one room myself).
But what about you — you who say you’re pro-life and are always making excuses for the abortion party? What are you doing to walk the walk?
In regard to the heart transplant – I don’t think anyone could decide on the basis of the information you’ve given. If it’s an adult heart, for instance, I don’t think a 5-year-old could take it. There are many medical considerations and those are often what decide a case. But in every decision truly just principles of human worth and dignity have to be observed.
Lori –
I’m not sure why you pulled out that “always think in political terms”. Where in my post did I say anything on political terms?
It seems like we’ve come to an agreement that he’s against euthanasia. Any other thoughts beyond that relating to actually policy are simply paranoia and slippery slope thinking.
On the 5 vs 90 year old – nice dodge job – you should be a politician.
Lastly – you ask about me making excuses for the ‘party of death’. We have two parties of death here and to not realize that is a massive mistake.
Thanks for the thoughts though – I don’t know if it substantially changed anything I said earlier. I stick to the point that he’s not making policy statements – just saying that as science has increased years, quality hasn’t always come with it. For him, after a certain age, he’s not doing anything dramatic. Quite frankly, I think we all have that age for ourselves in mind – for some reason though (probably because he had affiliation with Obama, everyone on this board obviously thinks he came from the devil himself, therefore the logic and reasoning hats get set aside), when he stated what’s right for him and why, it caused all levels of freaking out.
Have a great day though – not sure if there’s anything more to say on this one, but I’ll watch if you or anybody else has any questions, or anything new to offer.
ExRINO says: September 20, 2014 at 12:44 pm
…”I don’t know about others – but I’m a Christian”…
======================================================================
ExRINO,
I can’t speak for others, but I don’t know about YOU?
Please provide me with some ‘bona fides’, please.
.
fruit
.
two or more witnesses
.
a baptismal certificate
.
a confirmation scripture
.
a letter of membership in a ‘church’
.
a family bible with your name in it
.
a vacation bible school memento
.
A photograph of an ichthus bumper sticker on your Prius
Ken –
It’s funny that I’m the one that is questioned about being a Christian, because I don’t vote the right way.
I’ve been called an idiot in the past couple of days by a Christian on this board.
I’ve been told that if we were on facebook where the person could swear, they would ‘cuss me out’.
And now I have a long time poster with racist tendencies questioning the fruits of my life.
Would it make you feel much better if I simply posted that I love Mitt Romney? Would that allow everybody to move on away from questioning? I swear some of you have added a couple of verses to the Bible regarding what it takes to live in genuine communion with Christ.
“We have two parties of death here and to not realize that is a massive mistake.”
One party supports, encourages and coerces moms to kill their children for crying in the rain!
Yes, there are issues in the other party and we do realize this (even though you think you are the only one here that does — a perfect example of that arrogance that pours from you in almost every one of your posts).
But really how does anyone with an ounce of common sense and compassion, a self-proclaimed Christian at that, rationalize day after day about his voting for people who support LEGALIZED child killing? It’s my firm belief you have a very hard time admitting that you just might be wrong.
Those millions of folks killed before they were ever born have never been given the opportunity to make positive changes to either party. Wake up already to what the major problem in our country is.
It would make me feel better if you could admit that voting for people that support killing children over voting for people who oppose killing children is just short of killing the child yourself.
Prax –
The Democrats are no doubt, undisputedly in favor of allowing abortion.
The Republicans seem in favor of 98% of abortions.
There is no ‘pro-life’ party to vote for. I’m fine with voting for a party that I feel will better give economic and support systems that encourage life.
I’ve offered many challenges to have people show me legislation that has been offered that would impact rates plus or minus 20%. A lot of crickets in the room after that.
I have no issue voting Democrat. They all talk a good game when it comes to abortion, but there’s very little actual legislation discussed – and when it is, it’s typically token legislation. For all the fuss about the infant born alive legislation – never been prosecuted, never been utilized – who knows, maybe the bill is propping up a short leg on somebody’s table.
I 100% disagree with the abortion stance of people I do vote for. But I’ve found after years and years of looking at the issue, that there is no pro-life party in this country. You’re holding your nose either way.
Prax –
I also hope that wasn’t too much of a “incessant blathering fest” for you.
That was kind of you.
Look around. The atheists love Emanuel as much as you do, Ex.
Maybe you should question their atheism.
Blather on.
Prax –
If you aren’t interested in actually debating or talking about issues, and just want to try to score some cheap points, please stop wasting my time.
Obamacare architect Ezekiel Emanuel may say one thing but this is what the Obamacare law means by what it said. Sadly no need to hide lying eyes when some are to blind to see and, not to mention, deaf to hear.
http://www.nrlc.org/uploads/medethics/2012ObamacareRationing.pdf
Denial of Life-Saving Medical Treatment under the Obama Health Care Law
Quality” Measures
HHS empowered to impose on hospitals, doctors, & other health care providers one uniform standard of care specifying under what circumstances treatment can – and cannot – be given – pg. 16
Enforcement
Doctors who give treatment not permitted by “quality” measures disqualified from contracting with the insurance plans all Americans will be required to have (individual mandate) – pg.17
2. Medicare Limits
UNDER OBAMA HEALTH LAW:
HHS given standardless discretion to reject any Medicare Advantage plan.
HHS can limit or eliminate ability to add own money to obtain health insurance less likely to ration seniors’ health care. – pg. 21
“That was kind of you.”
Ooooh. You support legalized baby killing but the words “incessant blathering fest” hurts your widdle feelings. Big man on campus.
Grow up and start defending those weaker than yourself. Weren’t you going to take your little one to visit a nursing home today?
Prax well done! @phillymiss I just love you. There is no defense of life with Obama in office. He has said A woman who aborts must have a dead baby. If not she will be upset pr her life will be ruined. Dont you see why infanticide is on the rise? Because young girls are getting the message. If you dont want it..KILL it. toss it in the garbage like an old pair of shoes.
Women who have killed their children out of utero and are free to have a life again ….Amy S. Grossberg ( with bf Brian Peterson ) his pregnancy and birth. Threw living baby in a dumpster on a freeezing Nóvember night. Baby died from shaken baby syndrome. Both served 2 yrs in prison. Melissa Drexler aka Prom Mom….went into labor at her prom after hiding her pregnancy. A cleaning lady found the baby dead in the trash. Drexler hit the dance floor requesting the Metallica song I DONE THE UNFORGIVABLE. She only served a year. Shes now married with kids. Jessica Coleman ( from my neighborhood ) Hid her pregnancy gave birth in her bathroom stabbed the baby to death with scissors and went to eat dinner with her mom who was a nurse. She and her babys dad put the babby in a duffle bag. Weighted it down with rocks and threw it into a quarry. A diver found the body. Jessica was 15 and her guilt made her confess at 22. She was on Oprah. Got 6 years. Others Audrey Iaccona…killed her son and is a married mom with kids today. Her mom was a nurse! She served 2 years. People This is just WRONG!!
And there have been many other cases of infanticide where mothers have not been caught. Many states have safe haven. And if abortion is so wonderful then why didnt these girls abort? Abortion has turned women against their own offspring.
Oh yeah dont forget Casey Anthony ..NOT GUILTY!
Above post hid pregnancy….not his pregancy. Baby boy Grossberg also had a fractured skull. Nay sayers and pro choicers enabled Amy assuring her shes had a miscarriage. Poooooor Amy. Mom and dad bought hdr her own Greeting Card company. She had 3 felonies and made national news. What more could she do?
And Grossberg wrote letters in her journal every day saing …..Dear God..I have made a mistake and Ik I deserve to be punished but IT is ruining my life. Please make IT go away I HATE IT! Then she made bf Brian promise not to tell and told him in one letter….Dear Bri Babes or Baby Dumps..Im sorry Ive done this to us but when its all over I want my nice body back so we can uh uh again. Im sorry I am too sore to have sex right now. xoxo Amy.
Funny but Grossberg and Peterson figured life would resume as usual after delivery. After a 7 pound baby boy was delivered Amy lay in the Comfort Inn bed sobbing and yelling at Brian to “Get Rid Of It”!! Amy was alone in the room exhausted and emotionally spent. This is when medical experts believe she harmed the baby. A kick in the head or a chair leg? Major skull fracture. Brian was in his car trunk and found a garbage bag. Amy asked him as he slid the baby into the bag with blood soaked towels “Was it a boy or a girl”? Before Brian could answer she waved her hand and went “phht never mind.” Oh but Amy God knows what you did. She passed out in her dorm room that night and ended up in the hospital with eclampsia. It was a media circus for years to come.
Ex-GOP,
Yes, we do have two parties of death – and unlike you, I have never made excuses for either of them. (You certainly make a lot of assumptions about me).
I did not dodge your question. I just pointed out that it was not really possible to answer it as it stood, given that in the real world — I mean the real medical world — decisions like this are never made solely on the “benefit to society” basis. Doctors (who unlike comboxers usually are the ones doing these things) have to ask questions such as: Does blood type match? Is the organ tissue suitable for this body? Is the person healthy enough to undergo the operation? If we starting making these decisions SOLELY on the “benefit to society” basis, then we’re really screwed up medically.
On pure ratio of cost /patient survival, we just don’t know. An otherwise healthy 90-year-old can easily be healthier than a sickly 5-year-old and better able to survive.
In regard to estimates of “benefit to society,” your case doesn’t even have a real basis. Are you trying to say that the 5-year-old is able to benefit society and the 90-year-old isn’t? Well the 5-year-old isn’t of benefit to society now (in crass terms) and won’t be for another 15-20 years until she’s out of school and employed. Up until then, she’s just a drain on her parents’ resources and on the state’s to educate her. And 90-year-olds can still benefit society (Grandma Moses was painting in her 90’s; Goethe wrote Faust in his eighties). Details like this are impossible to know until you have a specific case, and you didn’t present one.
If you were asking hoping I’d answer on the basis on pure prejudice against elderly people, then for such a person, the 5-year-old would win hands down. Thing is, I don’t have such a prejudice, and therefore need more details.
Does this satisfy you?
That’s fine Lori –
I’m not that interested anyway.
Thanks and have a good day.
“Read the article.”
I read the opinion column a few days ago, Ex-GOP. It’s a first step: push the 75 idea, assuring everybody that it won’t be compulsory, then gradually make it less of an option and more of a requirement.
bm –
What’s the first step? This article? Or living wills? Do you feel that this article was the first time anybody thought that after a certain age, they don’t want crazy life saving procedures?
I read the article when it first came out. And appreciate it is attached to this article. I find it extremely disturbing and once again a lack of respect for human life when one is less than perfect.
What a scary idea that this guy had anything to do with creating our current health care system. Deciding when people should die is God’s job not his.
John –
So God should decide when people should die, not him – so you are criticizing him because he wants to let God decide when he dies – not through prolonged work by doctors? So the right thing to do in letting God decide is to have doctors do everything possible until death?
This thread keeps getting weirder.
My living will is sitting here. No heroics DNR CC….no tubes no life support.
We are given a life span for a reason. When my time is up I will go willingly
The incomparable Sophia Loren is 80 today. She’s had some work done, but I still think she is gorgeous. She is the oldest woman ever to appear in the Pirelli calendar. Bella!
Besides being an oncologist he is also an “ethicist” at UPenn. I am going to start telling ppl I went to Penn State.