Ray Rice video demonstrates why America should see abortion
The problem with all of this posturing is that the video released by TMZ does not really constitute new - or at least probative - evidence at all…. [W]e know from Rice’s own admission that he struck Palmer in that elevator….
But we humans are weird creatures. It is one thing to know, intellectually, that Ray Rice knocked a woman unconscious in a hotel elevator. It is another thing to actually see it happen….
Humans place inordinate value at an emotional level upon what they can see, as opposed to what is visible with all their other senses….
This is, in essence, the reason our abortion policy has remained essentially static over the last 40 years in this country in spite of astonishing scientific advances in terms of understanding fetal development and our ability to move the viability window for premature children continually backwards. Virtually the entire country turned on the Iraq war between 2003 and 2006 because of the constant visual stream of war casualties that we were not willing to accept; meanwhile roughly the same number of children are killed in utero each day as died in the entire Iraq conflict, and to even speak of this atrocity is considered tiresome and gauche by the ruling elite, even within the Republican party.
There is, in fact, a reason that proponents of abortion-on-demand resist so strongly any attempt to require women who plan to get abortions to view an ultrasound of the unborn child…. [T]hey know that if America’s emotional reactions ever catch up to what we are increasingly aware of on an intellectual and scientific level, the terms of this debate can and will change quickly and not in their favor.
The lamentable and disgusting farce that has played out in the NFL concerning Ray Rice shows that we are willing to tolerate with relatively little fuss that which we intellectually know and understand, but not what we are actually forced to watch with our own eyes. And the purveyors of the campaign of death in this country know that America has much the same instinct regarding the 1+ million children who are aborted every year.
Or at least, I hope we would.
~ Leon H. Wolf, RedState.com, September 8
This is the very reason why it is so important to have pictures of the babies that have died the gruesome death of abortion out in the public square. They are not pretty, they are pictures of mutilated human beings, but yet, many times when an abortion bound woman sees one of these pictures she will change her mind, because “she just can’t do that to her baby.” The pictures are also valuable tools on college campuses, because young people can really see what abortion is, which sparks incredible debate and logic.
There is much debate in the pro-life community on the use of these pictures though,, but just as with the holocaust, the Vietnam war and with what is going on with ISIS…..it is the pictures that really makes things sink in, this is why with abortion, it should be no different, we must show the truth and continue to show the truth!
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“Humans place inordinate value at an emotional level upon what they can see, as opposed to what is visible with all their other senses…”
I wonder how this works for blind people. Perhaps they distribute this value across their other senses.
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The reason the video has new information is that many had speculated that the woman was the one acting violently, and he pushed her away, she lost her balance, hit her head on the elevator wall. That’s similar to what happens in a startling number of domestic-violence cases.
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You’re right bmmg. No one doubted he hit her, people were wondering what happened before. Still, it’s not self-defense if you knock someone a quarter of your size out unless they have a weapon and you’re in real danger. Someone Rice’s size is perfectly capable of restraining an unarmed person her size instead of knocking her out, if he was really afraid she was gonna beat on him.
Humans are extraordinarily visual and yeah graphic imagery can assist the pro-life movement on some cases. I just think it should be used judiciously. Humans also get jaded and desensitized to violence they see every day, that’s why you get generational family violence. If people see the pics all over the place all the time, it just becomes normal to them. We have a lot of tools for pro-life advocacy and graphic pictures play only one part.
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“and he pushed her away, she lost her balance, hit her head on the elevator wall.”
It would take one heck of a push into anything to knock someone out, wouldn’t it?
“That’s similar to what happens in a startling number of domestic-violence cases.”
No, that’s similar to what both victims and abusers often say happens in a startling number of domestic-abuse cases. It doesn’t mean it’s true.
I hope Miss Palmer gets de-programmed as soon as possible and permanently untwists herself from Rice.
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Bingo! We should repeatedly cite the Rice-NFL-effect as rationale for abortion images, to the squishier pro-lifers who object to this method of education.
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[…] Ray Rice video demonstrates why America should see abortion. […]
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bmmg39: “and he pushed her away, she lost her balance, hit her head on the elevator wall.”
Praxedes: “It would take one heck of a push into anything to knock someone out, wouldn’t it?”
Ah…no. People have died from tripping and hitting their heads on some blunt object without having been hit to make them fall down. I don’t understand your skepticism.
bmmg39: “That’s similar to what happens in a startling number of domestic-violence cases.”
Praxedes: “No, that’s similar to what both victims and abusers often say happens in a startling number of domestic-abuse cases. It doesn’t mean it’s true.”
It is true. Women initiate domestic violence against their male partners approximately as often as the reverse occurs.
I hope Miss Palmer gets de-programmed as soon as possible and permanently untwists herself from Rice.
– See more at: https://www.jillstanek.com/2014/09/ray-rice-video-demonstrates-america-abortion/#sthash.cGlIU0UG.dpuf
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bmmg39: “and he pushed her away, she lost her balance, hit her head on the elevator wall.”
Praxedes: “It would take one heck of a push into anything to knock someone out, wouldn’t it?”
Ah…no. People have died from tripping and hitting their heads on some blunt object without having been hit to make them fall down. I don’t understand your skepticism.
bmmg39: “That’s similar to what happens in a startling number of domestic-violence cases.”
Praxedes: “No, that’s similar to what both victims and abusers often say happens in a startling number of domestic-abuse cases. It doesn’t mean it’s true.”
It is true. Women initiate domestic violence against their male partners approximately as often as the reverse occurs.
I’m not here to argue that Ray’s actions were appropriate; they were disproportionate to her initial attack against him outside that elevator. But that also doesn’t mean that her actions against him…FIRST…are acceptable. That’s probably why she’s defending him now.
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“That’s probably why she’s defending him now.”
Or it could be she’s scared that next time he’ll knock her out and she won’t wake up. Keep your enemies close and make the best out of the situation and all.
Done here.
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“Ah…no. People have died from tripping and hitting their heads on some blunt object without having been hit to make them fall down. I don’t understand your skepticism.”
It’s true, it doesn’t actually take much. In the video it was clearly a push, so you’re right about that. It was hugely disproportionate though. She like, smacks him and he shoves her with all his body weight. If someone that small compared to you smacks you, you should either take it or hold up your hands. If she that much smaller, your reach is much longer and she will only be able to hit your arms until you get into a public place and she will probably cut it out. Worst comes to worst it’s pretty easy to restrain someone that much smaller than you (of course, if they don’t have a weapon) without hurting them, especially if there’s a camera that shows you weren’t the instigator than you’re home free.
You can’t use that much force against a non-threat like a slap, it’s like beating someone to a pulp for punching you. Even taking gender physical differences out of it it’s just disproportionate. If charges should be brought she can get some minor charge and community service for slapping first, and he can get assault charges and hopefully both of them can be made to go to anger management after he serves at least some jail time.
I get people don’t take violence against men by women seriously, but please don’t use incidents where the dude retaliates like this to bring that up. It certainly doesn’t help male victims. It’s stuff like this that makes people not take me seriously when I talk about my wife being abusive, I think most would probably assume I hit her back because of stuff like this and Chris Brown. I’ve actually been asked if I punched her for hitting me! That’s not the way you should respond to violent women unless they have a weapon and you can’t do anything else! Responding like this makes things worse for everyone. Male victims have an uphill battle as it is without injecting conversations about female violence into an incident where he knocked her out for slapping him.
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It’s not just man versus woman, or bigger/heavier/stronger guy versus woman, this is an NFL player versus a woman. A “whole ‘nother level,” as they say.
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It’s important to remember that the NFL didn’t fire Rice because they saw the elevator video – they fired him because YOU did. Seeing something is not enough – it is having everyone KNOW that you saw it that really matters.
It strikes me that a lot of the reaction that pro-choice advocates tend to have when confronted with images of abortion are similar to the equivocating about domestic violence going on in this conversation thread. Rather than dealing with the image at hand, honestly and up-front, discussion shifts to “context,” “extenuating circumstances,” “hard cases,” etc. Just as some women being violent does not excuse the almost always disproportionate violence against women, the various reasons commonly and immediately brought up (finances, education, being disowned by family, abusive relationship, etc) do not excuse abortion – and bringing them up reflexively when confronted with visual evidence of the wrongness of the action is, I believe, disingenuous and evasive. It indicates having no other ground to stand on.
I know that Biden is not exactly a favorite around here, but I think that he really says what needs to be said when it comes to domestic violence:
“The one regret I have is we call it domestic violence as if it’s a domesticated cat. It is the most vicious form of violence there is, because not only the physical scars are left, the psychological scars that are left. This whole culture for so long has put the onus on the woman. What were you wearing? What did you say? What did you do to provoke? That is never the appropriate question.”
There is a quote, I believe by Margaret Atwood, about general cultural violence against women: “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.” It touches on the completely unequal “fears” each gender has of the other, and the relative pettiness of the fears that men often have that are so often discussed as though they are an equal part of the interaction. When it comes to even a reciprocally violent domestic relationship, I think that quote could be amended to say: men are afraid that women will scratch them; women are afraid that men will kill them. I wouldn’t even say that men are “afraid” women will scratch them, though; I would probably just say, men are ANGRY that women will scratch them. That isn’t to say that women should “scratch” men, at all. But being angry that she did, or could, or wants to, is no reason to beat her, or punch her, or kill her. It is a wildly disproportionate situation, and discussing it as though the two are in any way equal is disingenuous.
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Alexandra: It strikes me that a lot of the reaction that pro-choice advocates tend to have when confronted with images of abortion are similar to the equivocating about domestic violence going on in this conversation thread. Rather than dealing with the image at hand, honestly and up-front, discussion shifts to “context,” “extenuating circumstances,” “hard cases,” etc.
I agree with most of your post, Alexandra, and it’s a good one. On the above, though, it’s hardly a “discussion shift” to note that the images of abortion that are presented are often from late-term abortions, when “extenuating circumstances” and “hard cases,” etc., often apply.
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“I get people don’t take violence against men by women seriously, but please don’t use incidents where the dude retaliates like this to bring that up. It certainly doesn’t help male victims. It’s stuff like this that makes people not take me seriously when I talk about my wife being abusive, I think most would probably assume I hit her back because of stuff like this and Chris Brown. I’ve actually been asked if I punched her for hitting me! That’s not the way you should respond to violent women unless they have a weapon and you can’t do anything else! Responding like this makes things worse for everyone. Male victims have an uphill battle as it is without injecting conversations about female violence into an incident where he knocked her out for slapping him.”
I’ve made clear that a moderate backhand slap does not warrant a punch. I want to compare like with like, and not focus on who’s bigger or who’s smaller, because domestic violence is not about size, strength, or gender.
“Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”
Women are afraid men will kill them. Men are afraid women will kill them.
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“There is a quote, I believe by Margaret Atwood, about general cultural violence against women: “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.” It touches on the completely unequal “fears” each gender has of the other, and the relative pettiness of the fears that men often have that are so often discussed as though they are an equal part of the interaction. When it comes to even a reciprocally violent domestic relationship, I think that quote could be amended to say: men are afraid that women will scratch them; women are afraid that men will kill them. I wouldn’t even say that men are “afraid” women will scratch them, though; I would probably just say, men are ANGRY that women will scratch them. That isn’t to say that women should “scratch” men, at all. But being angry that she did, or could, or wants to, is no reason to beat her, or punch her, or kill her. It is a wildly disproportionate situation, and discussing it as though the two are in any way equal is disingenuous.”
Alexandra people can only say this if they’ve never been in an abusive relationship with a woman. There’s not a ton of physical fear (until weapons get involved) but there’s plenty of fear she’ll take the kids, accuse you of being the abuser and get you arrested, etc. And it’s so emotionally draining there’s a real chance you’ll kill yourself before she kills you. There is really no one on your side if you are abused by a woman. People aren’t going to take it seriously, ever. I’m pretty annoyed people brush off female violence overall because of cases like Ray Rice. Plenty of relationships are one-sided female abuser cases, and no one takes it seriously because of this.
And bmmg this is why I hate it when you bring up female violence in cases like this. She slapped him first, whatever, he’s twice her size and knocked her out. TIME AND PLACE to discuss female abusers, not with this case.
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Oh and a third of domestic violence deaths are male victims killed by women, so it’s not completely negligible worry if you’re in a relationship with an abusive woman. Less likely than if you were dating an abusive man, but the risk is there whether people believe it or not. You can make your points that the violence he committed back in this case was disproportionate (which it really, really was) without acting like male victims of female abusers are just big babies or have nothing to really worry about Alexandra. My ex still threatens me when she gets mad about something and we’ve been divorced for two years!
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“I’ve made clear that a moderate backhand slap does not warrant a punch. I want to compare like with like, and not focus on who’s bigger or who’s smaller, because domestic violence is not about size, strength, or gender.”
I missed this. You can’t really compare like with like, though, and gender and size can’t really completely be ignored. My ex would punch me full in the face. Bust up my lips and bloody my nose, black eyes, whatever. If I had punched HER full in the face, I would have risked knocking out her teeth, breaking bones, knocking her unconscious, or other serious injuries simply because I’m bigger and male. A punch to the face is going to have different consequences based on gender and size. Heck, even a slap is different. She would slap me as hard as she could and I’d end up with bruises, if I had slapped her it might have had enough force to knock her down or cause other injuries.
That’s not to say I think that there should be different consequences, if you punch someone you should be held responsible regardless of how much damage you were able to do, but you can’t really remove gender and size from the conversation completely. There really isn’t a comparing like with like when the physical differences aren’t equal. I don’t like it when people brush off female violence because it’s less likely to be fatal or cause serious injuries (unless weapons are used, ever been hit in the head with a guitar?), but I also don’t like it when people think you can compare physical violence directly between men and women.
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“And bmmg this is why I hate it when you bring up female violence in cases like this. She slapped him first, whatever, he’s twice her size and knocked her out. TIME AND PLACE to discuss female abusers, not with this case.”
As an advocate for all victims of abuse, including male victims, I’d simply LOVE to know when that time and place are gonna be here, because up until now we mostly get the sarcastic “ooh what about the poor menz?” responses. (Not here, I mean elsewhere.)
“My ex would punch me full in the face. Bust up my lips and bloody my nose, black eyes, whatever.”
If I may ask (and I apologize if the question is too personal, but it’s germane to the discussion)…did she ever spend time in prison for this, and, if not, why not?
“That’s not to say I think that there should be different consequences, if you punch someone you should be held responsible regardless of how much damage you were able to do…”
That’s kind of what I’m saying.
I’m not a big guy and I’m not a strong guy. If I went up to a member of the Philadelphia Eagles while he was eating in a restaurant, and I scorned him for losing in the playoffs to the Saints (say I was a gambler, which I’m not), and then I punched him in the face, and he punched me in the face, his punch would probably be harder and more damaging. But he’d be within his rights to do that, and I wouldn’t be able to hide behind, “Hey, you can’t hit me back! I’m weaker than you!” I doubt people would sympathize with me, nor should they.
Remember Lennie Small from OF MICE AND MEN? He could kill with his bare hands (and he does, though never intentionally), but he doesn’t want to harm a soul. So that little punk Curley takes it upon himself to attack Lennie, because he wants to look all bad-a-s. He knows Lennie is passive, and takes advantage. Lennie is crying for help, and bleed is trickling down his face, but he won’t fight back because he’s scared — until George has finally had enough of seeing his friend getting beat up, and he gives Lennie the green light, and Lennie just grabs the guy’s hand, mangling it. All of the other characters are horrified by what they saw, but they know that Curley brought it on himself by attacking Lennie.
Almost every male victim is Lennie Small.
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“As an advocate for all victims of abuse, including male victims, I’d simply LOVE to know when that time and place are gonna be here, because up until now we mostly get the sarcastic “ooh what about the poor menz?” responses. (Not here, I mean elsewhere.)”
Have you seen the documentary Dear Zachary? It’s devastating, and a good one to show the people who claim that female violence is not serious (the woman killed her ex-boyfriend, who by all accounts was non-abusive and never hurt her, while she was pregnant with his baby and then when the baby was like 18 months old she drowned herself with the baby). And I hear you, I get the sarcasm, the doubt, the comments like Alexandra’s that basically ridicule the idea that men are ever afraid of violence from women. I understand your frustration though, it’s almost impossible to have a conversation on it because of various reasons. I just think that in these incredibly disproportionate responses to violence committed, it makes male victims look even more doubtful and people will focus on the knocked out woman, not the fact she hit first. Fact is that even in non-domestic cases, reasonable force is a thing for a good reason and I don’t think it’s helpful to focus on the fact the woman hit first in these cases because even if it were a man and another man, Ray Rice would still be in legal trouble and in the wrong.
“If I may ask (and I apologize if the question is too personal, but it’s germane to the discussion)…did she ever spend time in prison for this, and, if not, why not?”
I never pressed charges. The neighbors called the cops a lot at first until they gave up, the cops just thought it was funny, or they made sure I wasn’t the one beating on her and left. I could see pretty clearly that the legal system wasn’t going to take it seriously. It did help me in court for emergency custody when I finally left, I had about a year’s worth of really depressing selfies of injuries and threatening texts and stuff like that, I got sole temporary custody immediately and a temporary no contact order. She claimed some stuff and the judge basically called her a liar to her face, lol. But no, she never got in trouble, I doubt she would have received any time even if I pressed the issue.
“I’m not a big guy and I’m not a strong guy. If I went up to a member of the Philadelphia Eagles while he was eating in a restaurant, and I scorned him for losing in the playoffs to the Saints (say I was a gambler, which I’m not), and then I punched him in the face, and he punched me in the face, his punch would probably be harder and more damaging. But he’d be within his rights to do that, and I wouldn’t be able to hide behind, “Hey, you can’t hit me back! I’m weaker than you!” I doubt people would sympathize with me, nor should they.”
No, it’s unreasonable force. People have to respond appropriately to physical threats. When my ex hit, I knew I wasn’t really in danger (except when the objects came out, lucky I’m much faster than she is) so punching her would be way out of proportion for self-defense. It’s like bringing a knife to a fist fight. I just can’t agree that “punch like a man, get punched like a man” is a good way to deal with female abusers. What usually happens is the guy who snapped finally and hits back will get hauled off to jail and lose his kids and have a DV conviction on his record. It’s no-win to hit back. If you feel like you’re in danger or being hurt by someone that much smaller than you, just restrain them if you must.
“Almost every male victim is Lennie Small.”
We’re all mentally disabled and accidentally kill things? I get what you’re saying but I just don’t agree:( I don’t agree with that. SOME of us managed to keep our cool and get out without needing to get physical. Sure it means taking some punches to the face and dodging cans of spaghetti sauce (that sounds funny but it really wasn’t, clipped me in the head), but it’s a heck of a lot better than accidentally severely injuring or killing a woman (or a much smaller man) or getting yourself thrown in jail.
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What does punching the mother of your child in a casino have to do with abortion.? The child was not present. He is a bully or worse but this has nothing to do with abortion.
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“Have you seen the documentary Dear Zachary? It’s devastating, and a good one to show the people who claim that female violence is not serious (the woman killed her ex-boyfriend, who by all accounts was non-abusive and never hurt her, while she was pregnant with his baby and then when the baby was like 18 months old she drowned herself with the baby).”
I’ll look for it.
“And I hear you, I get the sarcasm, the doubt, the comments like Alexandra’s that basically ridicule the idea that men are ever afraid of violence from women.”
I know Alexandra from many years on these boards. She’s a good egg. I’m not going after her, just clarifying on an issue I’ve been passionate about for a couple decades.
“I never pressed charges. The neighbors called the cops a lot at first until they gave up, the cops just thought it was funny, or they made sure I wasn’t the one beating on her and left. I could see pretty clearly that the legal system wasn’t going to take it seriously. It did help me in court for emergency custody when I finally left, I had about a year’s worth of really depressing selfies of injuries and threatening texts and stuff like that, I got sole temporary custody immediately and a temporary no contact order. She claimed some stuff and the judge basically called her a liar to her face, lol. But no, she never got in trouble, I doubt she would have received any time even if I pressed the issue.”
It varies from region to region. In some places, police are treating the matter appropriately (both Ray Rice and Janay Parker were arrested after their incident), but far too many either are “white knights” or have been specifically trained to arrest the man, under the principle that the larger person is automatically the aggressor. (I saw one story in which the man, after repeatedly calling the police, was solemnly told by an officer whose hands were metaphorically tied that next time he should just try to leave, because if she breaks a nail WHILE HITTING HIS FACE then HE’LL be arrested.” Theater of the absurd. And, as we know, women sometimes block the only means of exit so he has no choice but to move her (one way or another) in order to leave. Oh, yeah: then she sometimes gets “custody” of the home because “he left.”
“People have to respond appropriately to physical threats.”
I disagree with the notion that the onus of being the “cooler head” must always be on the person attacked. That person is expected to be in control of his/her emotions and actions, and not the attacker?
“Almost every male victim is Lennie Small.”
“We’re all mentally disabled and accidentally kill things?”
No, they’re almost all bigger people whose size advantage ends up being a DISADVANTAGE. The police, courts, and DV shelters often don’t help them because “they’re bigger and can take care of it themselves.” Then they get arrested when they try to “take care of it themselves,” because “they’re bigger.”
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