by Colleen W.
News from the pro-life blogs today….
Mark Pickup comments on the death of Harriet McBryde Johnson, disability rights lawyer, opponent of euthanasia, and an atheist. Mark shares Johnson’s New York Times article, “Unspeakable Conversations,” about her encounter with Peter Singer, the Princeton professor who supports infanticide for children born with disabilities (ancient Sparta, anyone?)….
Mark laments both Johnson’s atheism and that in her article she “missed a wonderful opportunity to help the New York Times‘ vast audience see that people with disabilities are equal and important members of society.” Pickup shares the essay he wrote in response to Johnson, entitled “Unspeakable Conversations for Good Atheists.”
John at Generations for Life reports that their Face the Truth event went well:
Most importantly, though, countless hearts were changed, and in some cases, scheduled abortions were cancelled.
Alexa at Forest Nymph links to some incredible news reports, including one from CNS about a baby who grew outside his mother’s womb and was recently born – perfectly healthy, by the way. As the title of the story indicates, “science can save both mother and child.”
Alexa also shares some good news from LifeNews, one article reporting that an abortion mill in OH was evicted. Way to go, OH!
And in CA it appears 48% of registered voters support Sarah’s Law, a proposition on the November ballot requiring parental notification on abortion. The law is named for 15-year-old Sarah, who aborted without her parents knowing and then needlessly died from complications that could have been averted had she received prompt medical care.
[Photo of Maria Benedita and miracle son Valdir Gabriel courtesy of Catholic News Agency]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“science can save both mother and child.”
Only sometimes. I know there are some of you here who don’t believe that an abortion could save a woman’s life. I’ll pray that you never have to learn firsthand that it’s true.
An interesting news item about some Catholics trying to make things right:
http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/world/2008/07/25/D924VGRG1_rel_vatican_birth_control/index.html
“More than 50 dissident Catholic groups from around the world have written an open letter asking Pope Benedict XVI to lift the church’s ban on birth control.”
Jess @ 10:38 AM
Jess – I know there are some of you here who might not believe this, but many pro-lifers are not opposed to abortion when it used to save the mother’s life. (Morally, it’s called the principle of double effect.) What’s radically different about such situations is that choice is removed – it becomes essentially unelective.
There’s quite a different moral mindset approach to such situations that is not fully understood by many abortion-choicers.
Doctors said the baby was conceived in the fallopian tubes and was never implanted in the uterus. Brazilian pro-life groups have pointed to the case of Gabriel as another testimony that life begins at conception and that drugs that prevent implantation are in reality abortifacients.
What an amazing story! The mother’s name is Maria Benedita, which translates to “Blessed Mary”. She is truly blessed.
Another reasonably big study of abortion and breast cancer:
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/8/814
Chris I know there are a lot of nice pro-lifers who don’t want to see women (someone’s mother, daughter, sister) die if there is something they can do to save them.
However I have known people who would rather see a woman (and many times her baby as well) die then have an abortion. After my aunt’s abortion (it was a while ago when we didn’t have the technology we have now) to save her life after a pregnancy related thyroid problem almost killed her many people in my Catholic Church looked down on her because of it. It wasn’t like she just ran out and got an abortion, she was comatose her doctor and husband decided it would be the only way to save her. And still some people in my Church consider her a murderer who shouldn’t be allowed to worship with us.
And still some people in my Church consider her a murderer who shouldn’t be allowed to worship with us.
What’s done is done, and I think the people of her parish need to move on. If her story spread by rumors, perhaps most of those who looked down on her did not know the details. God forgives, and it’s time for them to as well.
Is it really called abortion when a doctor has to take the baby from it’s mothers body to save her??
What is it called? A friend of a friend was fighting a virus and her pregnancy was literally killing her. However, she would NEVER say today that she had an abortion.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/8/814
Thanks, Ruggedo. This is a great resource. Scientifically it appears to put a nail in the coffin of the mythical ABC link, but I am sure that, as with the anti-vaccine brigade, there will be plenty of folks who refuse to accept the science.
Carla, if a pregnancy is terminated, for ANY reason, including an act of God (aka miscarriage), its still an abortion.
Carla, 1:40: It surprises me too. That’s why I wonder if rumors were spread calling it an abortion.
Janet, it WAS an abortion. And I’m wondering how thats surprising to you, when there have been half a dozen posters on here calling Jill a pro-abort because she is okay with aborting tubal pregnancies. Several people who’ve posted on here said that even to save the mothers life, an abortion is unacceptable, and that if the mother dies, its simply what God wanted.
Lesforlife is one of the regulars who has stated this. As well as Will Duffy and Zeke. And almost all of the drive-by posters who show up whenever Jill posts about the incrementalists vs absolutists in the pro life movement.
Amanda,
Are you ok?
With all due respect, a woman who very much wants to have the child she is carrying but cannot because to continue the pregnancy would kill her……would NOT go around saying she had an abortion.
I had 2 miscarriages and an abortion. I do not say I had 2 spontaneous abortions and 1 abortion.
I am wondering if there is something kinder and gentler that would speak to others about a child that is very much loved and waited for and had to be taken from the mothers body to save her life.
A tubal pregnancy can kill a mother. Have you ever heard of someone that has said they had an abortion after having a tubal pregnancy removed?
Amanda, OK, I reread the post and didn’t realize she was in a coma. That would make the situation different. I believe the Catholic Church does require that all measures be taken to deliver a live baby. It makes sense if the baby is considered a life with the same inherent value as any other human being.
I don’t understand what this has to do with Jill’s opinion on tubal pregnancies and I don’t know what the Catholic Church’s official stand is on that. As you probably know, Jill is not Catholic.
Hi Janet!! I love your picture!! :)
Carla, @2:54: Good points. You stated that better than I could have!
Carla, Thank you! :)
Jess said And still some people in my Church consider her a murderer who shouldn’t be allowed to worship with us.
And some people are missing the sermons on Christ’s mercy, forgiveness and grace.
I believe it is better to save one life than to lose both – it seems your aunt was in that situation. Morally, a life is being saved in the process. It is not the intention to kill, although that may happen. Medically, there has been much progress. You should note that these are called the ‘hard cases’ and represent less than 2% of all abortions in the US.
Carla – pro-life ob-gyns usually are very, very tough on themselves and the patients when it comes to such matters, and so it is not arrived at lightly or without looking for all other options (including prayer!) Sometimes God answers, other times he doesn’t. We don’t know His perfect plan.
Jess, I don’t understand why the church congregation would be upset with the woman to begin with. She was in a coma! Even if they *did* feel like she should have died as well as the child, she didn’t make the decision!
My view on this is that everything should be done to save both. This might mean an early delivery, but I think a preterm birth is FAR preferable to killing the child.
Now, in cases where the mother’s life is threatened early in a pregancy (such as an ectopic), sadly “perserving the most life” means taking the life of the child.
Hi Chris.
God always hears and answers. :) Maybe not in the way we want or expect but in the way He thinks is best for us.
Janet/Carla
What I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter WHAT the reason is. There isn’t some magical nice word for it. If a pregnancy ends in any way other than the delivery/birth of an infant, its an abortion.
Removal of a tubal pregnancy is an abortion.
Extraction of a fetus prior to viability, to save the mothers life or not, is an abortion.
The actual term for miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
Do you have any idea how heartless you sound, Amanda?!
Hope none of your friends has a miscarriage.
What’s appalling is that only 48% of registered voters support Sarah’s Law. How many perverts and child abusers are there on the voter registration lists in California anyway? After all, there is an opt-out option for parents who want to sign a “Scrape her out, what do I care?” waiver in advance to allow their daughters’ abusers to take them to the seedy abortion mill of their choice.
Amanda,
I know a pro-life OB/GYN that doesn’t consider an ectopic an abortion. This baby will not survive under the circumstances and the outcome of allowing the pregnancy to continue could eventually lead to the death of the mother.
Hi Carla,
I also am aware of a woman who had a miscarriage and had to have a D&C but didn’t turn it into insurance because of the use of the term spontaneous abortion on the medical records. She didn’t want anyone at her employment to think she willingly had her pregnancy terminated. It is very confusing for people and she is trying to work with the medical community to change their terminology.
The Personhood Amendment would require women with tubal pregnancies to die, because the embryo would have rights equal to the mother.
As indicated by Amanda at 2:46, this is exactly the intent of the supporters of Personhood.
If, as the posts indicate, others do not agree that both must die, they may need to re-assess their support of Personhood.
The Personhood Amendment would require women with tubal pregnancies to die, because the embryo would have rights equal to the mother.
That is a lie.
That’s like saying that since conjoined twins are both considered persons, it would never be acceptable to separate them by surgery, since one could die.
Amanda, you have absolutely no idea what kind of an impact that word can have on a person until you have actually suffered from a miscarriage yourself, and I surely hope you never do. If you ever do, you will severely regret being so cold and careless to others who have gone through the same kind of loss.
My doctor NEVER called my miscarriage an abortion when she talked to me after I had mine. She always was gentle and understanding and called it what it was. Pregnancy loss, or miscarriage.
It was NOT an abortion, regardless of the clinical terms that could technically be used, and she knew that as well as I. She knew that the word abortion now implies intent and could have scarred me emotionally had she used it in regards to my miscarriage.
You simply shouldn’t use it when talking to a woman who has miscarried. It is way too hurtful and it is inappropriate, especially since Carla has already expressed her feelings to you.
Have a heart.
I also am aware of a woman who had a miscarriage and had to have a D&C but didn’t turn it into insurance because of the use of the term spontaneous abortion on the medical records. She didn’t want anyone at her employment to think she willingly had her pregnancy terminated. It is very confusing for people and she is trying to work with the medical community to change their terminology.
I hope she is successful, Sandy!
Janet, it WAS an abortion. And I’m wondering how thats surprising to you, when there have been half a dozen posters on here calling Jill a pro-abort because she is okay with aborting tubal pregnancies. Several people who’ve posted on here said that even to save the mothers life, an abortion is unacceptable, and that if the mother dies, its simply what God wanted.
Amanda, you know very well that those people do not represent the majority of pro-lifers. You find one extreme person and you decide to generalize them as though they represented the whole of pro-lifers. I get so sick of that. Then you go and criticize us for generalizing…the epitome of irony! Just stop it already.
Bethany 5:42 I have surveyed the members of the Colorado Supreme Court, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals and the United States Supreme Court, and none of the judges is named “Bethany”, so your opinions on the legal effects of the Personhood Amendment are unlikely to be determinative.
In addition to criminalizing abortion, “Personhood” would criminalize many or most forms of birth control, and fertility treatments such as in-vitro fertilization. That is the exact intent of the sponsors.
If you disagree with the extremist positions of the Personhood supporters, perhaps you should speak up the next time Jill touts “personhood”.
Amanda: 3:29: Janet/Carla
What I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter WHAT the reason is. There isn’t some magical nice word for it. If a pregnancy ends in any way other than the delivery/birth of an infant, its an abortion.
We’re talking the reality of abortion (the elective PP kind) on this blog, the whole point is not to mystify it, so please don’t say we are trying to sugar-coat anything. Pro-lifers know the horror of abortion.
Removal of a tubal pregnancy is an abortion.
I have serious doubt about this, do you have proof from a medical textbook or similar source (not a PP site)?
Extraction of a fetus prior to viability, to save the mothers life or not, is an abortion.
Need a medical opinion on that. I think Chris mentioned this case as well.
The actual term for miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
This is common knowledge. As mentioned before, you will only see those words on the medical chart and maybe insurance documents, certainly not in casual conversation with the person who miscarried.
Just a personal aside, I had a miscarriage early in a pregnancy and the doctor said I had to have a D&C. I freaked out because I knew it was an abortion technique, even though he had already told me the baby had died. (Note, BABY, NOT fetus). You have to be very careful about the type of terminology you use around pro-lifers, because it’s not all the same!
Bethany 5:42 I have surveyed the members of the Colorado Supreme Court, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals and the United States Supreme Court, and none of the judges is named “Bethany”, so your opinions on the legal effects of the Personhood Amendment are unlikely to be determinative.
I’m pretty sure none of them are named “NO” either.
NO:6:22: Bethany 5:42 I have surveyed the members of the Colorado Supreme Court, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals and the United States Supreme Court, and none of the judges is named “Bethany”, so your opinions on the legal effects of the Personhood Amendment are unlikely to be determinative.
And which court do you hold a position on?
NO, if two conjoined twins are going to die if one is not separated, is it legally permissible to separate them, even if it means certain death for one of them, so that one may live?
I have a question for the people here who object to the labeling of non-elective terminations as abortions. Would you call the induced miscarriage of a nonviable pregnancy an abortion? If not, what would you call it?
I guess I’m unsure whether a nonviable pregnancy is one that has already died, or one that cannot survive. Can it refer to either? I’m not very smart about these things.
Bethany —
You simply shouldn’t use it when talking to a woman who has miscarried. It is way too hurtful and it is inappropriate, especially since Carla has already expressed her feelings to you.
I agree with this. I think that, while it is not incorrect to call a miscarriage a spontaneous abortion, there is no reason to do so if you know that a woman prefers not to use this terminology. Most doctors will not tell a woman she has had a spontaneous abortion, they will tell her she has had a miscarriage — abortion is, understandably, an emotionally charged word, and miscarriage is an emotional subject.
It is possible to be both ‘correct’ and ‘wrong’ at the same time.
Sorry to group comments together; it’s taking me forever to post things lately.
I agree with this. I think that, while it is not incorrect to call a miscarriage a spontaneous abortion, there is no reason to do so if you know that a woman prefers not to use this terminology. Most doctors will not tell a woman she has had a spontaneous abortion, they will tell her she has had a miscarriage — abortion is, understandably, an emotionally charged word, and miscarriage is an emotional subject.
It is possible to be both ‘correct’ and ‘wrong’ at the same time.
Sorry to group comments together; it’s taking me forever to post things lately.
Thank you, Alexandria…I agree with your thoughts.
Sandy, that’s a shame. And aren’t your medical records private? I hope the people at her work will be understanding and empathetic towards the situation.
It’s awful because in situations where the mothers life is at risk such as an etopic pregnancy you have the mother, who you know and love and care for and then you have this baby you only knew for such a short time and people are telling you that the baby will kill her and you shouldn’t even try to save her. I really don’t care that my cousin got aborted honestly I’m just so happy to have my aunt here. And her two children she had after the abortion.
The weirdest thing for me is she still goes to the same Church, still a devote Catholic.
Carla @ 3:28 PM – You’re right and that’s more accurate!
Bethany, I guess you could say the same with induced/spontaneous miscarriage. My aunt did have an abortion. Maybe that’s why I don’t have such a negative connotation with the word.
This might seem callous, and I don’t want to upset anyone I’m just trying to help you see it from my point of view, if someone got breast implants so they would look sexier that would be different then if someone had a breast reduction because their breast were so heavy it caused them problems. They could both be called boob jobs but they would be very different.
Chris, I don’t think God has an exact plan for all of us but more like an outline and we just fill in the blanks? Hopefully doing what’s right?
What do you think?
Carla @ 3:42 PM
Amanda is actually correct – the Latin root is abortio – which meant to miscarry. It’s the elective, controllable aspect (morally wrong) that’s at the heart of the entire “choice” debate.
Miscarriage does seem to imply more of a natural termination, as opposed to abortion, which is the deliberate termination. So I agree with Janet’s comments at 6:28 PM
Yes, but is the “correct” terminology appropriate for a grieving mother who has had a miscarriage??
“Sorry about your spontaneous abortion.”
If my doctor would have said that to me I probably would have slapped her.
Jess: 8:31:The weirdest thing for me is she still goes to the same Church, still a devote Catholic.
Why is that weird?
I wouldn’t want to be around people who thought I was a murderer because my doctor saved my life.
Jess,
As you get older, you learn not to care so much about what other people think. Maybe she’s at that point. She shouldn’t have to move because of a few rude people and certainly leaving her beloved Church will not do her any good. It isn’t God’s fault she was mistreated and she probably needed Him then more than ever. Have you talked to her about it lately? She sounds like a pretty amazing lady to me!
She is an amazing lady Janet. After my Grandfather suffered a stroke and my Nana had a heart attack a few years ago she was there all the time, taking care of them, cleaning their house, cooking their meals, driving them where they needed to go (as did my parents and many of my other relatives). She has also always given 110% to her church and community.
Like I’ve said that was so many years ago and since then our family has had its share of tragedy but we stick together and manage to pull through.
Jess, You are blessed!
Lol, they’re all pro-life! Of course we do support abortion if the mother’s life is in danger.
I tend to clash with most of my family, all the women are as opinionated as I am but I have very different opinions, lol. But we have a lot of fun too. It must be the Irish in us, we love a good party.
Dear Amanda,
I am trying to call out to the compassionate young woman I have heard here. You can be all facts and figures, studies and stats. I am more interested in what Amanda’s heart says, what her opinions are and how she arrived there. You are very caring, nurturing and loving. I know you are.
Have a great weekend!!
Janet/Carla
What I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter WHAT the reason is. There isn’t some magical nice word for it. If a pregnancy ends in any way other than the delivery/birth of an infant, its an abortion.
Removal of a tubal pregnancy is an abortion.
Extraction of a fetus prior to viability, to save the mothers life or not, is an abortion.
The actual term for miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
Posted by: Amanda at July 25, 2008 3:29 PM
Except that the intent of the action is what matters here Amanda.
In the removal of a tubal pregnancy, the intent is to save the mother’s life.
In an induced abortion, the intent is to kill the baby. There is no medical reason for it – it is simply for the sake of convenience in most cases.
Abortion has come to be the term of preference for induced abortion as in the 1.5 million being done in the US every year.
Hence, no doctor would likely use this term to a mother with an ectopic pregnancy.
Hi Patricia!
To prolifers I think the term of preference is abortion. Going to the clinic, paying the money and having an abortionist kill the child growing inside of you for every and any reason.
To those that are fine with the above the term of preference seems to be CHOICE or Reproductive Rights….
So what you’re saying is, you want to use a euphemism for ABORTION. Fine. Make a pretty word for it. Its still AN ABORTION. The intention or reason has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Call it a puppy, call it a happy sunshine day, its still…an abortion…ie, a termination of a pregnancy.
Thats like saying its heartless to call cancer “cancer”, instead, you should call it a blister, or maybe an “oops” or a “boo boo”, because that “sounds better” – it doesn’t make it NOT cancer.
So what you’re saying is, you want to use a euphemism for ABORTION. Fine. Make a pretty word for it. Its still AN ABORTION. The intention or reason has absolutely nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it, Amanda. You’re being purposely obtuse and are acting like a jerk just for the sake of being a jerk.
Have a heart..some compassion, for those who have lost their children through miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy.
By the way, how come you’re all of a sudden welcome to using the word “abortion”, but want to call yourself pro-choice, when you’re really pro-abortion?
You can call it “choice” and dress it up with pretty words but it is still abortion that you support!
Thats like saying its heartless to call cancer “cancer”, instead, you should call it a blister, or maybe an “oops” or a “boo boo”, because that “sounds better” – it doesn’t make it NOT cancer.
By the way, If a woman was in the car with her child, and she accidentally drove into another car, killing her child, would you tell her you were sorry for her child’s HOMICIDE, or would you apologize for her LOSS?
Either term could be CORRECT, but which one would be APPROPRIATE???
Jess, what those people said to your aunt was WRONG. She did nothing wrong by saving her life in that situation. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to save the baby in a tubal pregnancy. If the baby is not taken out, the woman AND the baby will die. Those people who told her that she should have just died were WRONG. I’m so sorry that she had to deal with that, and I admire her for her standing up for her convictions and ignoring what those people said to her in her time of grief, when she needed people to support her, not tear her down.
I hope that she has found healing since her loss.
(hugs!)
Umm, no Bethany, that would not be homicide, that would be an accident. If there was negligence on the mothers part, it would be manslaughter.
But hey, if you like using euphemisms, go for it. Its just not my bag though. Next time one of our clinicians diagnoses a child with autism spectrum disorder, I’ll make sure to tell her to use a nice word for it, maybe “happy fun time disorder” because it sounds nicer.
Thanks for calling me a jerk though. I know a few euphemisms for that too. Very charming of you.
Bethany,
How are ya??
There really is no nice word for the intentional killing of the child that is growing in the womb of its mother.
Autism is autism.
Carla, I’m doing much better! :) Thanks for asking. Hope you are doing well!
Umm, no Bethany, that would not be homicide, that would be an accident. If there was negligence on the mothers part, it would be manslaughter.
Sorry to burst your bubble, Amanda, but technically speaking, it could be called a homicide because it is the killing of one human being by another human being. ” The intention or reason has absolutely nothing to do with it.”
So it’s just as valid (and appropriate) as calling a miscarried mother’s loss an “abortion”.
But hey, if you like using euphemisms, go for it.
I notice you didn’t respond to the whole “pro-choice” terminology thing….
Its just not my bag though. Next time one of our clinicians diagnoses a child with autism spectrum disorder, I’ll make sure to tell her to use a nice word for it, maybe “happy fun time disorder” because it sounds nicer.
Amanda, this is disappointing. I thought you were much smarter than this. Maybe you’re just having a bad day.
Thanks for calling me a jerk though.
Oh, no problem, Amanda.
I know that you have something against sugar coating words and using pretty words instead of accurate terms. I was happy to oblige, just for your benefit.
Carla —
There really is no nice word for the intentional killing of the child that is growing in the womb of its mother.
But the discussion was centered around unintentional — or unwanted — killing of the child in the womb, wasn’t it? No one’s saying that elective abortions shouldn’t be called abortions. And in situations where the abortion was not elective, there are nicer words or phrases, depending on the woman.
I would say, “I’m sorry for your loss” whether a woman miscarried, had to abort to save her own life, or was otherwise mourning the death of her child. It’s not a euphemism or a condescension — she has experienced a loss, and I’m sorry for it.
Amanda —
A couple years ago, my boyfriend had a tumor on his spine. It wasn’t cancerous but it still had a chance of paralyzing him or cutting off his blood supply. It hurt him a lot sometimes, and if we were in public I would sometimes see him moving in a way that suggested he was in pain. I never asked him, “Is your tumor hurting you? Do you want to get up/sit down/whatever?” I always said something more innocuous like, “How is your back?”
He knew it was a tumor. I knew it was a tumor. We could hardly get a second where we forgot that it was a tumor. But it was easier on the mind to refer to it in less doom-sounding terms.
People do things like that all the time. It’s not a euphemism, it’s a tactful way of talking about a difficult and emotional subject.
Okay I get it
Autism is Autism
but sometimes abortion isn’t abortion because it doesn’t sound as nice.
And calling someone a name (like jerk) is the same as calling something…by its actual name (like Amanda) AND its classy too.
got it.
Im going to go sit on my puppy…I mean, my couch. Puppy is just a nicer word.
Hi Alexandra,
I guess I changed the subject.
I appreciate your thoughts. You get what I’m saying.
Amanda, I think you are intentionally missing the point.
When I had my miscarriages, my doctors called them “miscarriages.” In fac
t, even when speaking to other doctors they said “she miscarried at X number of weeks.”
On every medical form I’ve ever filled out I ws asked how many miscarriages I’ve had and then, seperately, if I’ve had any induced abortions.
Obviously the medical community recognizes that while “spontaneous abortion” is the correct medical term for “miscarriage”, “miscarriage” is the correct term to use when talking to patients.
When I had an osteocondroma, they apparantly also could have called it an “osteocartilaginous exostosis,” but it apparantly they thought that one dose of medical terminology was enough.
A quiz.
Your best girlyfriend has a miscarriage. Do you say
A)I am so sorry you lost your baby. OR
B)You had an abortion.
Your best girlyfriend has a tubal pregnancy. Do you say
A)I am so sorry you lost your baby. OR
B)You had an abortion.
You best girlyfriend is pregnant and it will take her life. Do you say
A)I am so sorry you lost your baby. OR
B)You had an abortion.
You best girlyfriend had an abortion and regrets it. Do you say
A)I am so sorry for your pain. OR
B)You had an abortion.
Names on top. Eyes on your own paper. Turn them over on your desk when finished. No talking.
No.2 pencils only.
And calling someone a name (like jerk) is the same as calling something…by its actual name (like Amanda) AND its classy too.
No, I didn’t say you are a jerk. I said you are acting like a jerk. There is a difference. I was describing your behavior, not your self.
Alexandria, thank you for understanding what Carla and I were saying.
Oops, and I’m sorry I keep misspelling your name. It’s not intentional.
That’s okay, Bethany! My name gets mis-spelled constantly. I get Alexandria and Alexander all the time; Allie or Ali or Alley (what!?) instead of Ally; I’ve even gotten Alix or Alecks instead of Alex. That last one still stumps me. But it never really bothers me. I only correct people if they’re filling out an official document.
Once, when I won a fairly important debate for my college, I got in the local paper for it. They took my picture and quoted me, and they spelled my name as Alexander in both the caption and the article! Which was just dumb because the picture they took of me had my correct name printed on my name tag in it. Plus I think I’m quite obviously a woman. Anyway, my point is, at least you get my gender right! :)
Haha, that’s so funny. It’s amazing how easy it is for people to get names wrong. My last name is a pretty short and easy one, I think, but is frequently spelled “curr” “keer”, and many other spellings, on mailing lists and other such things. People pronounce it “kee-eer” when they’re reading it outloud (if I’m at a doctor and they call my name or something). You’d think something as simple as the name “Kerr” would be pretty easy to spell or read, but I guess not for everyone!
I’ve even had people spell my first name “Bethanie” (which I actually like!) or “Bethanny”, and SO many people mishear my name to be “Stephanie” or “Daphne”. :-)
Like you, I really don’t care too much about it…but I would have definitely been a little bothered by them getting your gender wrong on the local paper. lol
“You best girlyfriend is pregnant and it will take her life. Do you say
A)I am so sorry you lost your baby. OR
B)You had an abortion.”
I would say, “I was so scared I would lose you, I’m so happy you’re ok!”
I wouldn’t be thinking about the abortion but how happy I am my best friend isn’t dead.
Jess, that is understandable and that is very compassionate as a response!
Let me remind you that as well as needing to know that others care about herelf, a woman in that situation usually feels terrible about the loss of her child as well, and it is very comforting to hear someone express sympathy over the loss.
Pretending her baby didn’t exist or matter can be excruciatingly painful emotionally. I know many women who have suffered from ectopic pregnancies, and they want their child to be remembered, cared about, acknowledged. They want their child to matter to others.
They want people to acknowledge their loss…that’s just been my experience, and I can relate to those feelings, as I have had a couple of miscarriages. The feeling of loss is so extremely harsh after a miscarriage or pregnancy loss, for any reason.
Bethany actually my cousins wife miscarried sometime in the first trimester while I was away at school and when I came back she was pregnant again. I wouldn’t want to bring up the miscarriage now because I feel like I shouldn’t bring up a death when she has a new baby coming.
I always believed it is impolite or bad luck to tell people (besides the Dad and your doctor) that you’re pregnant until after the first trimester because that’s when most miscarriages take place. What do you think about that?
Jess, I had a miscarriage followed (relatively) shortly by a pregnancy that went nearly to term. Most people didn’t mention the baby we lost unless I brought it up. It’s a hard situation, but I understood that most people were trying to be sensitive to my feelings, so I didn’t get offended or anything like that.
As for it being bad luck to tell people, I disagree. I think that it’s important to celebrate the life, even if it does end before birth.
I always believed it is impolite or bad luck to tell people (besides the Dad and your doctor) that you’re pregnant until after the first trimester because that’s when most miscarriages take place. What do you think about that?
I don’t think it’s impolite at all. I think that women should be allowed to be excited about their new life they’re carrying in their womb, from the moment they first hear about it. If the baby dies before the first trimester is up, they should be allowed to grieve with their friends just as they would be able to grieve with their friends if they lost a newborn baby.
The grief is just as traumatic, but it’s most of the time a hidden grief, because many women feel ashamed of their feelings of loss and don’t realize that they’re not alone in their grief. Many women think that they must be crazy to feel so bad about their miscarriage, and hiding it only makes it worse for them.
I agree with Lauren that we should be celebrating the life even if it does end before birth. This is why I celebrate the life of my babies Blessing, and Faith, who both died before the first trimester was over. They existed. They mattered.
Jess, by the way, I am not only referring to my experience. I have gotten emails from literally HUNDREDS of women in the last year, who have suffered from miscarriage and are reaching out for support. Because of the overwhelming number of emails I get on an almost daily basis from bereaved post miscarriage mothers, I have been writing a book which I hope will help give answers, support, and help for women who are going through a miscarriage and don’t know who to turn to for support and encouragement.
just wanted you to know this so you don’t think I’m just speaking of myself. I’m not alone in this…it’s much more traumatic than you would imagine, until it happens to you.
Love you, Bethany.
Love you too, Carla!
I don’t believe in bad luck but have experienced both situations with miscarriage. The first time I was pregnant we told everyone and when we lost Jamie, everyone was there to grieve with us.
When I was pregnant years later we didn’t tell very many people. When Lee died it made it harder to tell people I was pregnant and had lost the baby.
I am thankful for the people who celebrated all of our babies lives with us.
People do things like that all the time. It’s not a euphemism, it’s a tactful way of talking about a difficult and emotional subject.
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BINGO!
On that same note, people rarely say they are going in on Saturday to have an abortion, they say “procedure” or some other word that doesn’t air their dirty laundry publicly.
And when Charlotte soils her diaper I don’t ask her if she had a bowel movement…I ask her if she’s got Phee-nooo. (Don’t ask)
It’s not that using the term spontaneous abortion is wrong, it’s just that using that term instead of miscarriage tells people that you really don’t care what the other person is feeling. You’re more interested in terminology than kindness.
There’s not one person here arguing that spontaneous abortion is an incorrect term. It’s just not the nicest term, given the situation. Unless of course you don’t like the person that you’re talking to, and just want to add insult to injury. Which of course is your prerogative. But it says more about you, that the lost baby.
Personally, I can’t imagine someone saying to me, with tears in their eyes “Please don’t use that term. While accurate, it really hurts me, deep down in my bones. It minimizes my pain, and devalues what I’ve gone through. It reduces my dead child to a “term” and takes away from her humanity”
And me responding “Tough, get over yourself”…
Most of those who “protest” the Catholic Church’s stance on contraception don’t understand it in the least. Also, if so many of them are “doing their own thing” on birth control, then it’s clear that it doesn’t even MATTER what the Church’s position is. They’re already doing whatever they want, so…
“I always believed it is impolite or bad luck to tell people (besides the Dad and your doctor) that you’re pregnant until after the first trimester because that’s when most miscarriages take place. What do you think about that?
Posted by: Jess at July 27, 2008 1:10 PM”
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I think that would be called superstition…