Pro-aborts quick to not waste a crisis
Kansas Meadowlark has additional information on George Tiller’s killer, Scott Roeder, who is more the paranoid unibomber type, as this snapshot of his life 13 years ago reveals:
Scott Roeder is sentenced to 16 months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.
But a tragedy such as Tiller’s murder is despicably a PR dream for pro-aborts, particularly just as we see the majority of Americans turning against them.
I documented in a post yesterday, that on the very day of this man’s death a Feministing blogger was considering ways to “turn this terrible tragedy into an opportunity to strengthen the pro-choice movement….”
Newsbusters has a post this morning about pro-abort sites accusing Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly, and Beck of being instigators.
Even I stand accused. A couple of (now unpublished) comments this blog has received…
“Rot in hell, you worthless terrorist c*** whore. The blood is on your hands, you vile b****. You deserve to be sh** on, b****.” “Which one of your followers and supporters shot and killed someone today? You and your sick tactics are not Pro Life. Congratulations. Good Luck when God Judges you. Please tell your Pro Life Whack Job Supporters to stop murdering people.”
The goal is to shut us up, to further deny the First Amendment rights of law-abiding, pro-life believers to speak and act against abortion. Do not yield. The Bible says, “If you faint in a crisis, you are weak.” Well, this is a crisis, and don’t get weak.
Pro-lifers must stand against attempts by pro-aborts and the Obama administration to use this tragedy to take away rights of free speech, for one. Bear that in mind when reading this statement from US Attorney General Eric Holder yesterday:
I have directed the United States Marshals Service to offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation. The Department of Justice will work to bring the perpetrator of this crime to justice. As a precautionary measure, we will also take appropriate steps to help prevent any related acts of violence from occurring.
Christina Page on RH Reality Check hysterically wrote yesterday:
One can only conclude that like terrorist sleeper cells, these extremists have now been set in motion. Indeed the evidence is already there. The chatter, the threats, the hate-filled rhetoric are abundant.
Oh, please. Someone tell Christina to stop typing until she either gets a grip or gets treatment for her paranoia.
Pro-lifers, remain calm and steadfast. Choose your words carefully the next couple days. Bear in mind this man left behind a wife, 4 children, and 10 grandchildren. Pray for his soul and their comfort.
And do NOT allow the other side to put you on the defensive.
[Photo attribution Orlin Wagner]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
All I can say is I’ll be watching O’Reilly tonight. It’s going to be er….interesting.
Bill Ayers and Bernie Dohrne were also from bombing making Weatherman violent backgrounds.
The use of a gun tells us Roeder wan’t pro life. Guns to kill humans are not what pro life stands for, Must be a strawman again.
God bless your strength, Jill.
I don’t think it’s fair to lump all gun owners with this terrorist. My family has always owned guns for self-defense, but we’ve never killed anyone. We hope we never have to use it. I feel bad for people who do have defend themselves, and I don’t pass judgement on people like that pharmacist in Ok or that couple in CO who shot that guy who was violently entering their home. They are in no way comparable to someone who shoots a guy in church for poltical reasons.
I don’t think it’s fair to lump all prolifers with this terrorist.
I remember how upset the Schindler’s were when a few pro-life groups exploited Terri’s image and death to market their cause and raise funds. I expect pro-abortion groups will do the same with Tiller.
I’m a Plfer. I don’t even own a gun. I stand out in the middle of the ghetto with no weapons. God protects me. I’m not going to allow anyone here to put me on the lunatic wagon. If I were not a law abiding citizen, I’d be incarcerated. I’m not going to apologize for anyone else’s actions. When a disgruntled postal worker shoots up his job, should we BLAME ALL POSTAL WORKERS???
This is what Scott Roeder wrote on the Operation Rescue site in 2007 ~
Scott Roeder Says:
May 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp. Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.
The violent clash of reasoning.
Pro life includes
1 The unborn
2 The new born
3 The child
4 The student in school
5 Terry scahivo on life support
6 Abortionists
7 Policemen
8 Old people
9 Patients of ventilators
10 Our enemies (excluding countries and terrorists that attack us)
This and more. I see the left will choke on it’s obvious error and see this guy isn’t pro life. He killed a person.
A normal person can’t see Roeder as pro life.
“Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, said the murder would “send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers” offering abortion to American women.”
HisMan, pro-lifer activist and protester to the murder of Dr. Tiller said, “abortion sends a chill down the spines of chilren that are being aborted”.
Of course, HisMan is not employed by any organization and receives no compensation for being a pro-life activist. His only motiivation is serving God, whose heart breaks at every act of abortion.
Heather, I was jussssst coming home to post something similar!!! (Right down to the postal workers analogy) : )
We have NOTHING to apologize for. We didn’t do it.
angle, I agree. I didn’t do it either.
I greet my mailman every time I see him. Just b/c a select few went nuts over job stress, doesn’t make postal workers people to fear!
I am worried about what this means for the Constitution. I don’t think the government has the right to spy on people’s on-line activities or wiretap their phones based on poltical beliefs before they’ve been convicted of anything. I hope this doesn’t pave the way for more of that. Anyone who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserves neither.
So sorry you have been blasted by hateful people and called vulgar names. The shooting is causing an illogical backlash against pro-lifers. Of course they are looking for anyone and everyone to blame, but you have done nothing to deserve those words. Although you could wear it as a badge of honor that you were insulted. Just a sign that you’re making a difference, and pro-abortion people don’t like that.
Quick to not waste a crisis? We’ve been sounding the warning bells that extremists with guns were bad news… Homeland Security knew it and now the rest of the world knows it too. You got p’owned by your own movement. Who’da thunk that the people who made “muslim terrorist” into a buzz-word would soon have the mantle of terrorist supporter tacked to their resume as well. You can walk away from the guns and the violence, but the record of your words traces you back.
YLT,
How would you suggest the government have prevented this without violating civil liberties? Should they have censored all anti-abortion speech and repeal the Second Amendment?
“Quick to not waste a crisis? We’ve been sounding the warning bells that extremists with guns were bad news… Homeland Security knew it and now the rest of the world knows it too. You got p’owned by your own movement. Who’da thunk that the people who made “muslim terrorist” into a buzz-word would soon have the mantle of terrorist supporter tacked to their resume as well. You can walk away from the guns and the violence, but the record of your words traces you back.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 1, 2009 11:20 AM”
————————————–
Uh, I think the statistics speak for themselves.
Since 1973, it is estimated that the pro-choice movement has resulted in the deaths of at least 50 million children.
And since 1973, the pro-choice movement has accused the pro-life movement of murdering what 50 or 100 abortionists (I don’t know what the actual number is) even though the pro-life movement has never appproved of any of such murders.
And we pro-lifers have been “sounding the bells” that abortion will result in the destruction of our country. And you accuse us of not listening?
What am I missing here?
HisMan I think the number of abortionists killed is actually way way smaller than that.
Jill:
I would consider these posts to be the work of uys like the murderer of Dr. Yiller:
“”Rot in hell, you worthless terrorist c*** whore. The blood is on your hands, you vile b*****. You deserve to be sh** on, b*****.”
“Which one of your followers and supporters shot and killed someone today? You and your sick tactics are not Pro Life. Congratulations. Good Luck when God Judges you. Please tell your Pro Life Whack Job Supporters to stop murdering people.””
Class, can you spell l-i-b-e-l. And another l-a-w-s-u-i-t.
Jill, I hope the AG is tracking those who have threatened your life as well.
Of course Jill, you have the means of informing the FBI where these people are posting from, right?
Oh, you mean if your a pro-deather, your life is worth more than a pro-lifer’s?
Or, was Obama just speaking to pro-lifers and not pro-deathers in his press release?
Why have we not heard any renunciation of the hate monger pro-deather response?
Politics?
I think the number of abortionists killed is around 7 or 8.
The actual number is well under 10, if I’m not mistaken.
Sorry, I misspelled Dr. Tiller’s name in the above post.
No disrepsect intended.
Bad fingers, bad, bad, bad.
which is 7 or 8 too many, of course, all PLifers agree the number of abortionists killed should be zero.
But my point is to say ….. it’s WAYYYYYYYY less than the other side’s PR campaign would like people to believe.
http://www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/about_abortion/violence_statistics.pdf
Murders since 1977: 7
Attempted murders: 17
Kristi and Leslie:
The ratio is 10 to 50,000,000 if we believe the pro-abort view that pro-lifers are responsible for the murder of abortionists. Without a doubt we can say that the 50,000,000 number is close as every abortion is recorded somewhere in government records.
In actuality the ratio is 0 to 50,000,000, because to be pro-life, by it’s very definition excludes all that would condone murder.
So perhaps the ratio should be 0 to 50,000,010. After all, what’s the difference between a person who would murder an abortionist and a person who would murder children in the womb?
Again, what am I missing here?
Kristi, agreed, it is not acceptable, and the number should be zero.
And agreed that it is a much smaller number than PCers would like the public to believe. 7 murders in 32 years.
Or, now I guess that number would be 8, including Dr. Tiller. The pdf is from this year, but I’m sure it hasn’t been updated in the past couple of days.
Jill wrote: Pro-lifers must stand against attempts by pro-aborts and the Obama administration to use this tragedy to take away rights of free speech, for one. Bear that in mind when reading this statement from US Attorney General Eric Holder yesterday:
“I have directed the United States Marshals Service to offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation. The Department of Justice will work to bring the perpetrator of this crime to justice. As a precautionary measure, we will also take appropriate steps to help prevent any related acts of violence from occurring.”
According to gynpages.com:
There are over 400 abortion/women’s healthcare providers in the US. Will 400 new U.S. Marshalls be hired? What are these “appropriate steps” that Holder is planning?
yes, I think Tiller would make 8 now.
8 too many, but far less than the ProAborts try to spin it.
Correction to above:
Only the statistic on the number of abortion providers in the US should be attributed to gynpages.com. The last two questions are my own.
It seems dishonest to post ridiculously offensive (and deleted) quotes from pro-choicers but offer no comment on those from pro-lifers. And it seems laughable to call a pro-choicer bloviating about terorrist sleeper cells paranoid but remain mum on a pro-lifer fretting over which symbol she’ll be forced to wear on her lapel now.
is it my computer or is anyone else having difficulty opening the real choice blog or operation rescue’s site?
In my earlier comment at 11:00 am I posted what Scott Roeder said on the Operation Rescue website. It is obvious his plan was two years in the making. He discussed going into Tiller’s church in 2007. Interesting stuff.
So Tiller performed more than 60,000 abortions?
That’s pretty shocking.
Just think if he performed just one, that’s 1, a singularity, for the wrong reason, let alone 60,000.
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 18:16
But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Do abortionists, by their very acts of murdering a child in the womb, cause a child, i.e., a mother to sin?
Angele, I can open real choice’s blog, but not operation rescue’s.
Quick to not waste a crisis? We’ve been sounding the warning bells that extremists with guns were bad news… Homeland Security knew it and now the rest of the world knows it too. You got p’owned by your own movement. Who’da thunk that the people who made “muslim terrorist” into a buzz-word would soon have the mantle of terrorist supporter tacked to their resume as well. You can walk away from the guns and the violence, but the record of your words traces you back.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 1, 2009 11:20 AM
He is innocent. Roeder is not proven guilty. Remember when you cried Tiller was innocent? So is Roeder. You also aren’t honest enough to admit that there was a killing yesterday. Pro life and killing are the opposite of each other.
Abortion stops a beating heart.
I documented in a post yesterday, that on the very day of this man’s death a Feministing blogger was considering ways to “turn this terrible tragedy into an opportunity to strengthen the pro-choice movement….”
As I said in the other thread, I am really fascinated by Jill’s faux-outrage at this statement. Feministing’s statement seems pretty standard, similar to what is always said whenever anyone is killed, particularly if the person had strong beliefs or principles. The idea is you never want the person to have killed to have lived in vain, so you carry on their work, further their cause, etc.
Alexandra,
What is laughable about Christina Page’s article? Read the entire article.
She’s basically accusing all pro-lifers as being murders or accomplices. Hardly compares to one persons tongue-in-cheek comment about a lapel pin.
Page’s final words:
Anti-abortion groups will put out carefully worded press statements condemning the murder of Dr. Tiller, as became routine for them during the Clinton years. But unless the rhetoric they choose from now on becomes careful too–they may be the enablers of murder and terror.
Add “potential”
“She’s basically accusing all pro-lifers as being potentialmurders or accomplices.”
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 1, 2009 11:20 AM
In the aftermath of 911 people went out of their way to not blame every Muslim. But you can bet pro-lifers will not be treated as such by the media. They won’t mind profiling the Hell out of pro-lifers.
~Curt Jester
Looking back, how many abolitionists are to blame for John Brown’s bloody deeds in Kansas and Harper’s Ferry, VA? How many abolitionist organizations were guilty of his deeds?
Zero, of course. And that’s the same number of prolifers and prolife organizations that are responsible for the murder of Mr. Tiller, zero.
Of course, slave holders and slavery supporters tried to use Brown’s actions as fodder against the abolitionists cause, but that didn’t work out too well either, did it?
Let’s not forget that about 3,700 children were murdered by abortion yesterday and another 3,700 today.
So one Dr. Tiller was murdered as well yesterday. I guess to pro-choicers, who expressed no outrage against just one of the 7,400 children murdered yesterday and today, Dr. Tiller’s life was apparently much more valuable?
Not seeking vengeance, just showing you the absolute gross distortion the pro-choice side makes when something happens they don’t like.
If we drew a caricature of the situation it would be a T-Rex being intimidated by a mosquito.
Janet, I didn’t say Christina’s article was laughable. I said it was laughable to call her paranoid but to ignore pro-lifers being equally paranoid.
“Page’s final words:
Anti-abortion groups will put out carefully worded press statements condemning the murder of Dr. Tiller, as became routine for them during the Clinton years. But unless the rhetoric they choose from now on becomes careful too–they may be the enablers of murder and terror.
Posted by: Janet at June 1, 2009 12:16 PM”
—————————
You mean we might become pro-choicers, i.e., enablers of murder and terror?
Hi Alexandra,
Point taken, but I did comment on your “paranoia” statement.
“Hardly compares to one persons tongue-in-cheek comment about a lapel pin.”
I don’t know how you can seriously call that paranoia.
That said, please, you must know that we PL’rs do not condone murder in any situation. Tiller’s murder was a horrible tragedy.
“You mean we might become pro-choicers, i.e., enablers of murder and terror?”
Page seems to propose guilt by association.
Janet, I don’t think many people condone murder! I just think that fretting about “and so the persecution begins” and “what symbols will we be forced to wear, I wonder” is pretty ridiculous.
Be honest, if an abortion clinic escort were found guilty today of murdering a pro-life protester, and a pro-choicer made the same comment, it would sound absurd.
“What are these “appropriate steps” that Holder is planning? ”
—————————————-
I believe that would mean more harassment to peaceful, Pro-life activities everywhere.
(sigh)…all those years of peaceful progress wasted by 1 wacko, nut job….
Rodney, the pro-life posters on this site have expressed only condemnation for Tiller’s murder. Instead of making completely baseless claims, try to maintain at least a shred of integrity.
“It seems dishonest to post ridiculously offensive (and deleted) quotes from pro-choicers but offer no comment on those from pro-lifers.”
There hasn’t been any real bad comments from pro-lifers here at all, not nearly as bad as the pro-choicers.
Unfortunately, Jasper, I can’t agree or disagree with you because they were deleted. But of course I wonder, why were they deleted if they weren’t bad? And if they were bad enough to be deleted, why highlight only the horrific pro-choice comments?
Visited the Feministing.com and saw this ad:
http://www.thegodmovie.com/?gclid=CKWVuNna6ZoCFSMgDQodKx88BQ
1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Is ther eany question at all where this web site originates from?
“And if they were bad enough to be deleted, why highlight only the horrific pro-choice comments?”
I didn’t delete any Alexandra, but the pro-life comments (one of them mine) that were
deleted really were not that bad. Not like ones Jill recieved from the angry left.
Firstly, I want to thank Jill for her acknowledgment:
“… Bear in mind this man left behind a wife, 4 children, and 10 grandchildren. Pray for his soul and their comfort.”
Secondly, I was curious to see how this tragic event was playing out in the ardent pro-life subculture. (Allow me to say that I am strongly conflicted on this issue, believing that ’embodied’ life does begin @ conception and therefore abortion is wrong AND believing that a woman has the right to make that choice, even if it is the wrong choice – this consequently coming down on the side of education and prevention).
In terms of the political aspects of this death and its circumstances, it is as Jill points out, a political opportunity to tar an entire movement … on either side of the issue I might add.
As Obama’s consensus building demonstrates, times like this are better used to find commonality, commonality in our opposition to this death, commonality in the recognition that all extremism is damaging to us all, commonality in our different appreciation of ‘Life’, commonality in the recognition that demonizing the other side impairs progress, etc.
At times, when I can see the forest for the trees, I realize that most political movements are about power over, or power against. Consensus building on the other hand is about power for, about all of us, together … after all, we are all on this earthy plane together even if we choose to be so conflictingly. If we are all in favour of Life as we all seem to say we are (unfortunately each using our own criterion but all too often discrediting the other’s), isn’t it possible to respect the Life that earnestly engages this issue and yet thinks differently?
This is a regrettable event … we at least have that in common!
Snerd
Pro: “… I don’t udnerstand how you could possibly expect pro-choice people NOT to view pro-lifers as violent extremists.”
SG: As a conflicted Pro-Choicer, I’d have to answer, because all Anti-Choice are not extremists.
Extreme rhetoric (on either side), does support extreme action. This is a position Jill agrees with, as her caution about ‘one’s choice of words’, indicates of course.
Snerd
Oh ‘Pro-Choice-in-Iowa’ … your comment seems to have suddenly been …. errr …. what’s the word I am looking for ….
Snerd
Pansy Moss, great quote from Curt Jester. Thanks. Have posted that as an additional quote of the day. I think that’s the first time I’ve ever done that.
One thing I really don’t understand: No one EVER mentions the violence pro-choicers do to pro-life people. Scores of men kill their pregnant girlfriends each year because they won’t have abortions. Protesters and those praying in front of abortion centers get threatened and even run over all the time. But pro-lifers don’t use that to tar and feather all pro-choicers. Jill is right. There’s no reason to give ground. We are the non-violent movement – by its very nature the pro-choice movement is the violent one.
http://www.abortionviolence.org/
YLT does not disappoint. Typical nonsensical comments from an expected source. Tiller is dead, let the histrionics of the left begin.
Of course the radical leftists, even though they know better, will attempt to disparage the entire pro-life movement based upon the actions of a single person, as if somehow we who promote the scantity of life are ourselves to be made guilty of the opposite.
This is a mantle we refuse to be burdened with, indeed we have faced similar unjust accusations from the fringes of the left over the years. Most pro-choicers know they have nothing to fear from pro-lifers.
And despite efforts to portray the pro-life movement in the worse light possible, we just keep coming back stronger than ever. We have dealt with harassement, adversity, illegal arrests, judicial and extralegal improprieties thousands of times across the country, and we will deal with the unjust accusations that come from this as well.
What is important to keep in mind here is the profile of the typical American family when it comes to the issue of life. The vast majority of families have members on both sides of the issue. America knows the isolated action of a single individual no more reflects on the entire pro-life movement than it does on the members of their own families who are pro-life.
But Jill:
Dead unborn children can’t decapitate you (Taliban and Al Qaida), threaten you with assassination (Salman Rushdie of Satanic Verses) or treat you like a friend and then blow you up (suicide bombers).
And we all know how cowardly the vast majority of newspaper and magazine editors are.
Silly girl……..
Jerry: “… What is important to keep in mind here is the profile of the typical American family when it comes to the issue of life. The vast majority of families have members on both sides of the issue. America knows the isolated action of a single individual no more reflects on the entire pro-life movement than it does on the members of their own families who are pro-life. “
SG: I agree. Just as the majority of Pro-Lifers are NOT Tiller killers, the majority of Pro-Choicers are not anti-Christs.
Snerd
Ah….
They forget there is a God in Heaven who can do much worse things than decapitate, assassinate and intimidate…..
He can throw us bodily into the lake of fire.
I know they don;t believe in delayed gratification, however, I do think they believe in delayed punishment.
How else could they live as cowardly pro-aborts and keep from staining their underwear?
MisHan: “… Dead unborn children can’t decapitate you … And we all know how cowardly the vast majority of newspaper and magazine editors are.”
SG: Nice conflation of abortion, Muslims as terrorists and MSM … but was there an actual rationally and empirically connected argument, or was just the conflation the point …?
Snerd
MisHan: “… He can throw us bodily into the lake of fire.”
SG: Fire Lake! …. I love that song MisHan
Who’s gonna make that first mistake
Who wants to wear those gypsy leathers
All the way to Fire Lake …
Snerd
Ya know:
You can always spot a wolf amongst the sheep.
Yes and you can always spot ideology in place of content or discussion …
Snerd
Jerry:
I think our Savior said it best:
John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.
Snerdly:
Ever read the story about Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf?
No? That explains it. Please crawl back into your hole.
Moderators:
Please remove all of Snerd’s anonymous posts. In addition to being conflicted about abortion he really doesn’t know who he is.
In actuality, he tries to deceive people into believing you can be an abortion fence sitter. I.e., believe that life begins at conception while believing that it’s still a woman’s choice to terminate.
He’s a pro-deather of the worst kind.
One thing I really don’t understand: No one EVER mentions the violence pro-choicers do to pro-life people. Scores of men kill their pregnant girlfriends each year because they won’t have abortions. Protesters and those praying in front of abortion centers get threatened and even run over all the time. But pro-lifers don’t use that to tar and feather all pro-choicers. Jill is right. There’s no reason to give ground. We are the non-violent movement – by its very nature the pro-choice movement is the violent one.
http://www.abortionviolence.org/
I am the last person to claim that being a prochoicer automatically means being non-violent. However, I would not put men who murder their pregnant girlfriends because they wouldn’t get an abortion as a pro-choicer. Trying to dictate a woman’s reproductive decision is the opposite of being pro-choice. I would doubt that such men are particularly likely to give Planned Parenthood, write their elected representatives in favor of choice, or engage in any voting or activism whatsoever based upon a belief in choice.
PC:
“I would not put men who murder their pregnant girlfriends because they wouldn’t get an abortion as a pro-choicer.”
You actually wrote these words?
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Well if this “boyfriend” is not a pro-choicer, he is certainly not a pro-lifer. Gee, I guess that makes him equivalent to being pro-abortion.
Same result….dead baby.
And now we can justify killing a baby because we give to Planned Parenthood, write our elected repesentatives, and engage in voting and activism? Lipstick on a pig? A lawn over a landfill? A wolf in sheep’s clothing?
Hey, did you found the Abortion Advocate Stepford Wives League or something?
How could anyone with a beating heart inside their chest write the total BS you just wrote?
It’s totally mind boggling the lengths that pro-aborts will take to justify murdering innocent children. It’s mind numbing. Unfreakingbelievable.
Snerd,
I appreciate your empathy for the unborn. Your point of view sounds similar to that of Denver Post columnist David Harsanyi who was the subject of Jill’s May 28th blog (see archives).
Where we differ is the point at which a woman is free to exercise her right to choose. If she doesn’t want to become pregnant, she can choose not to have sex. Sex is God’s incredible gift for married couples. Once a couple uses their bodies to help create a new life, they are required as the parents of their child and stewards of that human life to protect, care for and nourish that child through childbirth. If they need to give it up for adoption at that point, that is when their right to choose kicks in again. The termination of a pregnancy, other than for the health of the mother, is murder.
Decades ago, this was the prevailing sentiment in the U.S. Those that sought abortions were ostricized. Abortion was seen for what it was, inherently evil.
His Man,
Well, sure, the guy who wants to force his girlfriend to have an abortion is “pro-abortion,” but he is not pro-choice. There is a difference. You can be both, or you can be one or the other.
I am pro-abortion AND pro-choice. Some people (maybe Snerd) are anti-abortion and pro-choice. Some people are pro-abortion and anti-choice (like the Chinese government or abusive boyfriends who try to force abortion on their girlfriends). See how this works?
(Psst, this is similar to the argument made on this very site that Dr. Tiller’s murderer may be anti-abortion but he wasn’t pro-life. Get it?)
re : Kate at June 1, 2009 11:23 AM
It’s quite simple – the government can use the same terrorist survellance tactics that they use on other extremist group – go to the secret court established for such investigations and begin survellance. So long as there is accountability and oversight from the courts I see no violation of civil liberties.
Anyone who reads anti-choice blogs has to know that the rhetoric has been boiling over and it was bound to happen.
re: Pansy Moss at June 1, 2009 12:20 PM
In the aftermath, people actually did blame every muslim. That doesn’t mean it was right, but that having been said, this situation is a far cry from blaming every muslim or every pro-lifer – it is asking for a look deep into the core of groups like Armies of God, Pro-Life America, and Operation Rescue – organizations which have a documented history of terrorist sympathy.
PC:
Take it up with your maker.
Ed … a clear and cogent argument, rationally put. One of the things I liked best about it was an implication I drew from your historical and cultural context. It is possible for example, that social and ethical standard will shift again in the direction of the fetus.
While on this complex and painful issue, I come down in favour of the individual, their conscience and their personal relationship with God, I do feel the Pro-Choice position often maintains itself by avoiding many aspects entailed in the act of abortion. It maintains itself by an over simplification of the implications of the act of abortion.
I can understand this too within a historical context where women are in a process of gaining freedom from socially and politically instituted inequality, and where in relation to men are gaining control over their own bodies.
It is my belief that Pro-Life’s apparent inability to see and embrace this historical (and to some degree current) response to inequality, alienates women and hardens them again any Pro-Life attempt to politically force a retrograde and regressive move back to feminine servitude.
It is the often strident and exclude ownership of righteousness on the side of Pro-Lifers that dooms their political efforts, while at the same time promoting internal in-group cohesion … not unlike what we see in the GOP today …
It is why at times I wonder if the intention of some of the Pro-Life leadership is NOT political change, but group cohesion …
Snerd
PC, you are very caught up in semantics, which is rather a trivial point.
If Tiller was killed because he does abortion(s) and Pregnant Girlfriend was killed because she (didn’t) do abortion, those are opposite sides of the same coin. So, if the killer boyfriend doesn’t represent pro-choicers because he doesn’t “do” the things they do (give to PP et al) then you have proven/acknowledged the pro-life argument that the guy who killed Tiller, though he killed him because he did abortions, does not represent pro-lifers in general (who pray in front of abortion centers, give money to PRCs etc).
So, since you agree, would you mind taking that view over to Feministing and defend us?
And if we’re doing body counts (which I think misses the point, but some people are counting) then we need to include all the girlfriends killed because they didn’t get an abortion. That’s way more than the number of abortionists killed.
get a load of this comment:
“It rings a little hollow to me,” said Stephanie Poggi, executive director of the National Network of Abortion Funds, which helped women pay for abortions at Tiller’s clinic. “Anyone in the anti-abortion movement who has called abortion providers murders or called abortion a holocaust – any of those kind of vilifying statements – helps create the conditions where something like this can happen.”
No, Stephanie – you want us to stop calling abortion what it is – murder. And abortion is a holocaust. 50 million abortions since 1973. That is a holocaust.
Every abortion kills a unborn baby. Period.
My husband is a Jew. One day he said to me, I’m sure that Jewish people don’t agree with abortion. I had to correct him on that one. His response? “How could they possibly after the holocaust?” My husband is PL!
I love my PL hubby who stands behind me in what I do!
This doctor Tiller worked as an usher at a church???
To perform the gruesome late term abortions you have to be an athiest 4sure and perhaps even a pyhscopath. Can u imagine if God exists???
‘Choice’ and ‘choices’ have consequences.
Looks like mr. Roeder exercised his freedom to ‘choose’ and ‘chose’ murder.
mr. Tiller exercised his freedom to ‘choose’ and ‘chose’ mass murder.
mr. Tiller is now experiencing the consequences of his ‘choices’.
mr. Roeder is in the process of experiencing the consequence of his ‘choice’.
One murderer murders another murderer. It happens all the time. It is called ‘rough justice’.
Sometimes the suicide bomber makes a simple error and the result is he only murders himself and a few of his cohorts instead of a bunch of innocent non-combatants.
I grieve for their souls, but I thank God the would be murderers have put themselves out of our misery.
Life is frought with enough difficulty like sickness, and natural disasters, and mothers-in-law without bad people going out of their way to create disasters of their own making.
One of my favorite lines from ‘Lonesome Dove’ was ‘There are some men who just need killing’.
Cause if you let them live any longer than necessary they are going inflict death and destruction on a lot of decent folks who don’t need killin’.
You may remember then Governor Dukakis being asked if he would support the death penalty or life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for the man who might rape Dukakis’ wife.
The Governor said, “No.”
I bet his wife didn’t even vote for him.
If being for killing those who need killin’ means you are disqualified from being ‘pro-life’, then don’t call me pro-life and don’t call me to come a runnin with my gun when one of those people who needs killin’ is about the business of killin’ you or someone you love.
Don’t support the troops who are huntin down and killin people who need killin’, if killin’ people who need killin’ is not being ‘pro-life’.
Just build a prison for yourself and lock the people who need killin’ out and lock yourself in. Enjoy your self imposed incarceration.
You make fun of pbho because he pretends he could and would sit and be reaonable with unreasonable men who hate us and want to kill us, but at the same time you want to play this PR game of being sweeter than Jesus so people who hate you will like you and think well of the ‘pro-life movement’.
Be honest and be consistent, and speak the truth, even if it offends some hypersensitive artificial flowers. They will stop their whinin’ when you come runnin’ to save them from mad men who are about the business of killin’ them.
Just don’t expect them to show any gratitude and do expect them to criticise the manner in which you did it and attempt to prosecute you because you did not have a license for that firearm.
On second thought, don’t save em. You will just have to do it again and again.
Let them solve the problem themselves or die trying.
Evolution has to do it’s quality control work every now and then to clean up the gene pool to ensure the survival of the species.
Folks, things are going to get a lot worse before they begin to get better. Make up your mind now whether you are going to resist or you are going to submit.
Think of those people on that plane that crashed in the field in Pennsylvania on 911. They knew the mad men had seized control of the plane and they were probably going to die if they resisted, but they were sure not only would they die, but a lot of other people on the ground, if they passively submitted.
The crazies are running the asylum.
My apologies to certifiably insane people and terrorists everwhere for comparing you to liberals/progressives.
yor bro ken
Lynn at 7:11 p.m.,
You challenge me to defend you guys at Feministing. First, I read Feministing regularly and have not seen anything implying that the mainstream “pro-life” movement is complicit in Dr. Tiller’s murder. In fairness to you, however, I have seen this case made at other feminist websites.
But more importantly, I am not so convinced that mainstream “pro-life” rhetoric is as inconsistent with what Scott Roeder did as you claim. I just saw a movie called “Valkyrie” in which Tom Cruise plays a real-life German army colonel named Stauffenberg who tried to assassinate Hitler. The movie portrays Stauffenberg as a hero. I believe Stauffenberg is widely recognized as a hero in Germany. I believe most Americans would agree that the assassination of Hitler would have been justified.
Just a couple spaces below your comment to me, you compared abortion to the Holocaust. And main-stream anti-abortion groups have consistently portrayed Dr. Tiller is one of the prime villains perpetrating abortion in this country.
I don’t question that you sincerely believe all that. But I do question how, given that belief, you can distance yourself from Mr. Roeder to the extent you are attempting.
This is quite different from the situation of the abusive man who tries to force his girlfriend to have an abortion. I would have no reason to be happy about someone being forced to have an abortion against her will, whereas someone who equates George Tiller with Hitler would certainly have reason to be relieved at his death.
“It is my belief that Pro-Life’s apparent inability to see and embrace this historical (and to some degree current) response to inequality, alienates women and hardens them again any Pro-Life attempt to politically force a retrograde and regressive move back to feminine servitude.” – Snerd
If pro-life folks are so good at dissing themselves, why are pro-choice activists so worried about pro-life credibility that they consider it necessary to slander them so egregiously, so constantly?
It seems to me that misunderstanding, misrepresentation, bigotry and illogic are far more effective as enemies of life than its advocates’ occasional shortsightedness can be.
PC,
It’s a stretch to take a movie like Valkyrie where a man wants to assassinate Hitler, assume that most Americans would want Hitler murdered therefore they’d want the same for Tiller.
You’re grasping at straws to explain Tiller’s murder. It was a senseless crime by a sick individual. Not a group effort.
Springfield, IL (Nov. 29, 2005) — Compared to women who have not been pregnant in the prior year, deaths from suicide, accidents and homicide are 248% higher in the year following an abortion, according to a new 13-year study of the entire population of women in Finland.
The study also found that majority of the extra deaths among women who had abortions were due to suicide. The suicide rate among women who had abortions was six times higher than that of women who had given birth in the prior year and double that of women who had miscarriages.
The epidemiological study, published in the European Journal of Public Health, was conducted by Finland’s National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health (STAKES). The researchers looked at data between 1987 and 2000 on all deaths among women of reproductive age (15 to 49).
While the risk of death from suicide, accidents, and homicide was highest among women who had abortions within the prior year, the risk of death was lowest among women who gave birth within the prior year, who had less than half the death rate of women who had not been pregnant. The risk of death following a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, however, did not significantly differ from the risk of death among non-pregnant women.
Janet,
I didn’t say that Dr. Tiller’s murder was a group effort. I do believe that Dr. Tiller’s murder was a logical consequence of pro-life belief that he was engaged in on-going mass murder. I think the murderer was in line with “pro-life” beliefs and taking them to their logical conclusion.
I also think that it is callous and unfair of Jill to accuse pro-choicers of overreacting to the threat of violence against abortion providers. Even if only a small number of you engage in threats, vandalisms, assaults, and murder, the effect of placing abortion providers in fear is the same.
Pro-choicer,
I typed a lengthy response and lost it so I’ll try a shorter one and get to the point.
Tiller killed tens of thousand of babies. This didn’t justify his murder. There aren’t rational pro-lifers out there waiting for the opportunity to kill abortion doctors. There’s never a logical reason for killing, no matter who you are as you seem to suggest. The mainstream media is characterizing PL’rs unfairly. Period.
Janet,
Thank you for your on-point response. I believe that many, perhaps even most, pro-lifers would agree with you, but I think there are enough of the other kind that the murder and threats will effectively deter many who might otherwise provide abortion services to women. I believe there are plent of other Scott Roeders out there and that scares me.
Judging from what I’m hearing coming from the pro choicers on Huffington Post, I’m waiting for some of them to come shooting up pro lifers. There has been plenty of physical assaults on pro lifers peacefully praying in front of abortion mills. I’m sure this will ratchet that up a few notches.
Prochoicer, there is plenty of fear to go around. There are lunatics on both sides of the issue – lunatics with guns shooting abortionists, and lunatics shoving grandmothers down concrete stairs because they were trying to talk someone out of an abortion.
Pro lifers have been uninversally condemning the action of Scott Roeder. I’m waiting for the pro choicers to start condemning the assaults that pro lifers are enduring – although granted, those don’t get the coverage that a murdered abortionist gets.
For example:
Elderly Pro-Life Woman Assaulted Outside Abortion Business in Nebraska: http://www.lifenews.com/state3547.html
Pro-lifers assaulted while collecting signatures against abortion: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15808
Assaulted While Protesting Abortion: http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2006/04/assaulted_while_1.php
Part 1 Saint Mary’s University Students Assaulted by Pro-Abortion Mob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWZsNXVqu_M
Shall I go on?
I agree that violence against peaceful anti-choice protesters is abhorrent. Indeed, I am against vigilantism so I am also against violence against less-than-peaceful protesters, including Mr. Roeder, except to protect against imminent harm to another.
Do you have any examples of pro-lifers being maimed or killed for their beliefs? (Not trying to make a point — genuinely curious.)
Spooky: “… Pro lifers have been uninversally condemning the action of Scott Roeder.”
SG: Well there Ms Spooky, that’s a might conditional (and selective) universal.
MisHan for example, of the Christian Ole Testament school, is busy ‘resurrecting’ the eye fir and eye, universal law that blood spilled begets blood spilled. He’s not advocating it himself mind you, he’s simply advocating that it’s a Universal Law … So there’s no blood on his hands, just Law …
Snerd
PC,
I think pregnant mothers who are murdered for refusing to have an abortion fit into the category you asked about of “pro-lifers being maimed or killed for their beliefs.”
Happens all the time.
Good point Michelle!
Michelle,
That’s interesting, but I don’t think it is quite the same.
First, I wouldn’t assume that a woman who refuses to have an abortion on her boyfriend’s say-so is necessarily “pro-life.” After all, plenty of pro-choice women have babies. Insisting on keeping your baby despite a boyfriend’s objection does not make you “pro-life” in the political sense of being opposed to choice, which is what we are talking about here.
Second, I doubt these men are murdering their pregnant girlfriends because they are taking a particular political or religious stand against people who would outlaw choice. They just don’t want to be fathers and their pissed that their girlfriends won’t do what they say.
So I see a distinction between that and the murder of Dr. Tiller, which would be more comparable to the murder to a “pro-life” activist.
PC,
I think it’s safe to say that ANYONE who would murder another person has already taken whatever that person is doing QUITE personally, whether they know them or not.
It’s not like this guy went out and just murdered someone carrying a pro-choice sign in the street. Obviously, he felt, (however wrongly) that Tiller’s particular and quite personal physical involvement and profiting from the deaths of ~60,000 fetuses was more than he could stomach, and that it justified murdering him. Wrong, but quite different than your assertion that Tiller was simply your run-of-the-mill pro-choice activist.
Not defending Tiller’s murderer, just pointing out the flaw in YOUR analogy.
Well, no, I don’t think, nor did I mean to imply, that Tiller was a run-of-the-mill activist. But clearly his killer would have been motivated by a desire to stop late term abortions in general, as opposed to preventing a particular woman from having an abortion.
When I hear about an abusive boyfriend killing his pregnant girlfriend for not having an abortion, it doesn’t make me fear that I will be murdered if I get pregnant. When I hear about an abortion doctor murdered or assaulted, or a clinic vandalized, it makes me fear that I will be in danger if I get an abortion or if I provide services to women who do. So not only are the motives different, but the effects are different too.
I DO think that assaults on “pro-life” protesters are intended in part to deter “pro-life” protesting, but that violence, as far as I know, has not risen to the level of shooting or killing.
Not that that makes it okay. I abhor the notion of people standing outside clinics to protest abortion, but I respect their first amendment right to do so.
“Do you have any examples of pro-lifers being maimed or killed for their beliefs? (Not trying to make a point — genuinely curious.)”
Posted by: Prochoicer at June 2, 2009 3:19 PM
Since you asked, I googled and found two “Notable Instances” on Wikipedia:
August 26, 1993: Eileen Janezic of Huntsville, Alabama shot minister and radio talk show host Jerry Simon to death inside of his church.[1] Janezic had previously attended at Simon’s church but claimed to be a Satanist.[1][2] A psychologist, Dr. Roger Rinn, testified that Janezic suffered from bipolar disorder and believed that carrying out the murder was “Satan’s will”.[3] Madison County Circuit Judge Lynwood Smith found Janezic to be sane but recommended that she serve the life imprisonment that was her sentence in a place where she could receive mental health care.[4] Some pro-life sources describe Janezic as a “pro-abortion activist” and state that Simon was involved locally in pro-life advocacy.[5][6]
March 3, 2006: A 52-year-old woman drove her car into a pro-life rally in Nampa, Idaho, wedging a protester’s foot between her car’s tire and a sign held by the protestors. The protester was not injured. The woman driving stated that she had made a complaint to the police that the sign depicted graphic photos of an aborted fetus, and stated that the police had done nothing to remove the sign. She stated that she did not want local schoolchildren to see the images, and that she intended to block the images with her car.[7][8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-abortion_violence
Pro-choice, here’s an article on Pro-abortion violence:
“Pro-Choice” Violence (It Isn’t Just In-Utero, & Far Surpasses “Anti-Choice” Violence)
Prochoiceviolence.com ^ | n/a | Pyro7480, compiling several sources
Posted on September 13, 2006 5:49:35 PM CDT by Pyro7480
A video posted on YouTube, excerpts a video of an assault on a pro-life demonstrator in British Columbia on April 10, 2006 (full video at sick pro-abortion attack on pro-life protestor. The producer of the video, then states that “pro-life people make it seem as if pro-choice (or in their terms, ‘pro-abortion’) people are violent and ruthless.”
In response to this, the producer posts a series of “facts” compiled by the National Abortion Federation, including “482 cases of stalking, 380 death threats, 152 assaults, 173 cases of arson, 17 attempted murders, and 7 murders.”
The video producer then concludes, “So, a few measly attacks against pro-lifers, compared to 5,461 cases of violence against pro-choice people? It makes you wonder who the real violent, ruthless people are.”
Well, if you were wondering who “the real violent, ruthles people are,” one cannot ignore the acts of so-called “anti-choice” violence. On the other hand, all mainstream pro-life groups have condemned all acts of violence done against abortionists and their supporters, and I hardly trust the National Abortion Federation’s statistics.
There is, however, a web source that has compiled the data on pro-abortion violence. Human Life International has dedicated a site, Prochoiceviolence.com, for this purpose.
Some of the statistics compiled by HLI:
-880 homicides and other killings (broken into categories on the main page)
-86 attempted murders
-787 assaults
-1,798 sex crimes (including 169 rapes)
-59 kidnappings
-420 cases of vandalism
-270 drug-related crimes
-1,577 medical crimes
“Deadly pro-abortion violence has been reported at least since 1965 and is escalating rapidly, with an incredible 269 homicides and other killings committed in just the last six years (since 2000). 2005 was the bloodiest year, with pro-abortionists murdering 77 people, including 28 pregnant women (and their 28 wanted preborn babies), two baby boys, one little boy and five little girls, four men and two women, and seven other wanted preborn babies. The pro-abortionists almost matched this bloody slaughter in 2002, with 58 deaths, and in 2003, with 53 deaths. In fact, pro-abortionists have averaged more murders per year since 1967 (that’s 39 years in a row) than so-called “pro-lifers” have in the history of the entire conflict over abortion!”
Will we ever the “pro-choicers” condemn the acts of violence done against pro-lifers? I have my doubts.
(end)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1700988/posts
Good work, Janet!
Mrs. Spooky,
Thanks. Gotta love Google.
Jill, thank you for having the courage to bring these travesties to the forefront regarding the deglect of babies born and left to die. You are Higher in God’s eyes than Mother Theresa could ever dream (okay, I dramatize, but you get the message. You are among the elite of those doing God’s will in this world).
As for praying for Tiller’s soul? Jeffrey Dahmer was more deserving of mercy.
Sorry, Tiller is right up there with…well, I won’t say it. Don’t want to give the enemy fodder.
Keep up the good fight. You are a saint. Figuratively and literally.
Godspeed,
Joe