Weekend question: Do you think the 14th Amendment should be repealed?
by Chip Bok at GoComics.com…
See page 2 for more back-and-forth political cartoons on the topic of “anchor babies,” or babies born in the US to illegal aliens, who are nonetheless currently deemed US citizens according to the Supreme Court’s historical interpretation of the 14th Amendment.
Weekend question: Do you think the 14th Amendment should be repealed?
Backdrop – and a couple of the quandaries – as explained by Yale Law Professor Peter Schuck, in an August 13 New York Times op ed:
The citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, adopted in 1868, provides that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States…” This language has traditionally been interpreted to give automatic citizenship to anyone born on American soil, even to the children of illegal immigrants.
Congress plans to hold hearings this fall on a constitutional amendment to change that language, something even moderate Republican senators like SC’s Lindsey Graham support. With a new study showing that undocumented mothers account for a disproportionate number of births, even some Democrats might find it hard to stand opposed to altering the citizenship clause….
The clause’s purpose was to guarantee citizenship for former slaves – a right Congress had enacted in 1866 – and to overrule the infamous Dred Scott decision, which had denied blacks citizenship and helped precipitate the Civil War….
Congress did not, however, discuss the status of children of illegal immigrants – at the time, federal law didn’t limit immigration, so no parents were here illegally….
The argument against any birthright citizenship is that these children are here as a result of an illegal act and thus have no claim to membership in a country built on the ideal of mutual consent.
In the extreme case of “anchor babies” – children born after a mother briefly crosses the border to give birth – the notion of automatic citizenship for the child strikes most people as not only anomalous but also offensive. No other developed country except Canada, which has relatively few illegal immigrants, has rules that would allow it.
At the same time, we rightly resist punishing children for their parents’ crimes. Without birthright citizenship, they could be legally stranded, perhaps even stateless, in a country where they were born and may spend their lives. And because more than a third of undocumented parents have a least one American child, ending birthright citizenship would greatly increase the number of undocumented people in the country….
Some more political cartoons (accurate or not) to add to your consideration…
by Don Wright at GoComics.com…
by Michael Ramirez at Townhall.com…
by Nick Anderson at GoComics.com…
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I think the attempt to repeal this amendment is a thinly-veiled attempt to dehumanize undocumented immigrants.
It’s not “anchor babies” that keep undocumented immigrants from leaving the US, it’s more like “anchor jobs”. Most of them wouldn’t put themselves through this nightmare of living here illegally unless they were truly desperate. Many of their home countries were devastated by American foreign policy just thirty or forty years ago.
I do not want this democRAT congress or this democRAT president to get anywhere near the ammendment process for the United States Constitution.
The problem is not with the constitution but with the federal governments failure to live within it’s restraints and constraints.
The Federal govenment has a constitutionally mandated responsibility to secure the borders:
Ariticle 4
Section 4 – The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,
and shall protect each of them against Invasion;
and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
No one knows the exact number of illegal aliens presently in the United States but it is estimated to be between 12 and 20 million people.
All the countries these ‘invaders’ have come from have immigration laws as strict or stricter than ours and, at least in the case of Mexico, they aggressively enforce them.
Here is a really simple solution to the ‘anchor baby’ problem.
Pass federal and/or state laws that make it illegal to employ illegal and undocumented aliens.
The recent Arizona law demonstrates that illegal aliens will leave if they believe they will not be able to find employment.
Do not fall for this ploy on the part leftist/statist to tamper with the constitution.
Just look how these folks have addressed the recession or the oil well blow out in the gulf and you haven’t even begun to experience the nightmare of the b o hellth scare system.
Clarice,
I have absolutely no issue with race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sexual preference with people LEGALLY in this country.
I challenge you to name any other country as tolerant of people illegally crossing their borders as we are. In any number of other countires they’d be shot, imprisoned, or enslaved in some labor camp so please spare us this “dehumanization” of illegal immigrants. Ever check out Mexico’s illegal immigration policy or how they treat those illegally entering their country?
These people largely flee poverty and their own gov’t’s corruption and ineptness. Let’s stop with this patronizing mentality that foreign gov’ts and people are always victims who can’t be held accountable for their own problems. My midwestern city has a large population of Central American, African, Muslim, Arab, and East European people who came here legally. Is it fair they had to jump through all the legal hoops but the illegal element who, like it or not include a large number of criminals, do not?
I liked the one with the Pilgrims. :)
It seems to me that maybe if we revised immigration policy, we wouldn’t have this problem with illegal immigration. The Mexicans are hard workers, and they’re willing to take the jobs that we won’t touch. Make it easier to come to America: if you want, give them some kind of reduced citizenship to limit their drain on our resources, but by all means let them work here. The Catholic influence will probably be good for our depraved culture, anyhow.
And for all the naysayers who claim this would increase crime and drug smuggling and terrorism: the criminals are going to sneak over the border anyway. Osama bin Laden is a fool, but he isn’t stupid enough to show up at customs with a bag of opium and an AK-47. This actually makes enforcement against bad guys easier, because instead of having a mix of people making illegal crossings, you have all the innocents on the roads and all the criminals crossing the Rio Grande. A machine gun or two ought to take care of that.
There. I’ve solved another national problem or two. You’re welcome.
Clarice August 21st, 2010 at 7:53 am
“Many of their [undocuemented or illegal aliens] home countries were devastated by American foreign policy just thirty or forty years ago.”
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Clarice,
The overwhelming majority of illegal aliens in this country are Mexican citizens.
Pleas cite some specific examples where the United States governments ‘foreign policy of the past 30 to 40 years’ has ‘devasted’ Mexico in any way, shape or form.
My first trip to the interior of Mexico was 1972. I traveled the country for a month.
I subsequently made several month long trips through the interior of the country by car in the late 70’s.
I now go to the Mexican-American border 5-8 times a year doing charitable work.
Thing are much better economically than they were in the 70’s even with turn down in the U. S. economy. Mexico’s biggest problem has been it’s inability to deal with the drug cartels and the resultant corruption at every level of government.
The two countrisyou could cite which were plagued with political unrest and a civil war was Nicaragua and El Salvador. Communists has siezed power in Nicaragua and were doing all they could to destablize El Salvador and do the same.
Under Ronald Reagan, the United States provided funding, arms and training for the Contra resistance in Nicaragua and the established government in El Salvador.
Today both countries are democracies. If you want a contrast. Visit Cuba or Venezuela. [I have been to Cuba.] I have never met a single Cuban in the United States who had anything positive to say about communism/socialism or Fidel Castro.
Barrak O’bama is at best , an ‘anchor baby’.
How is that hopey changey thing workin for you?
When the amendment is interpreted correctly it is not meant to be a haven for illegal and undocumented residents gaining citizenship for their offspring.
The second problem is the disaster of our not enforcing immigration laws–if we did that this would hardly be an issue.
The third problem is that the courts said that undocumented and illegal residents have the right to our social services and educational system. We roll out the red carpet so what do we expect?
So what other Amendments might people simply decide they don’t like and need to be thrown out or re-written?
Quite frankly, we need the people if we’re going to keep Social Security going. US needs to figure out ways to get more people into the country (but legally).
Chris,
I hope you plan to address the illegal immigration policies of the Mexican gov’t and the way illegals are treated in that country. Even as a legalized citizen your rights are limited.
Let’s see, we’ve just had a huge drug bust in our city involving illegals as well as a rape victim set afire in an effort to kill her. Her physical and emotional scars will be lifelong. Also, talk to Arizonans about the occasional problem with crime.
EGV,
We’d have these needed people and workers if we hadn’t aborted millions of them over the past 37 years.
Mary,
Took the words right out of my mouth! :)
Jill,
Look into fellow pro-lifer Linda Chavez’ remarks about the tradition of birthright citizenship in America and the folly of repealing it.
In Christ,
Andy
Changing the 14th amendment sounds a heck of a lot like punishing children for the crimes of their parents.
How does treating people as “illegal” and “aliens” help the “culture of life” exactly?
It’s sad to see people say “well if you went to country X they’d kill you so why are we being so nice?” Isn’t our goal as Americans to be the best country?
Wow. I actually agree with X-GOP. If we toss out the 14th amendment what else is gonna be “tossed” out? I thought the 14th amendment specifically said only children of LEGAL immigrants?
It’s not “tossing out” the 14th Amendment, it’s understanding its context and intent when it was written, and what it properly means. It has been abused and taken advantage of by illegal immigrants — mostly Mexican — in order to to circumvent the laws of the U.S.
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof , are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Hi, guys. Can you fill me in on one thing? If a baby is born in the US and his parents are here illegally, does that qualify his parents for any citizenship/visa status? Does it give them any additional rights to be here?
Because unless that’s the case, then I can hardly accept the premise that the 14th Amendment is being unfairly taken advantage of by illegal immigrants. They’re not gaining anything personally. They’re only trying to give their children the advantages in life which they are able. I can certainly envision being that mother…and I can’t really fault her for her motivations, although I hope I would go about it differently.
It seems to me that this debate is more about the fact that “anchor babies” keep illegal immigrants invested in our country, and we (rightfully) don’t necessarily want illegals invested in the US. We want them to find legal ways of living here or to get out. So I’m with yor bro ken when he argues that we need to enforce immigration laws more. Let’s not focus on gutting the Constitution to get what we think we want, but rather, focus on more effective ways of encouraging legal behavior.
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teaming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Mary – very true, and a lesson in long term consequences. There are a lot of countries that are going to be facing huge population issues because of less children.
Jennifer – sure, yes…but there’s folks who say that same thing about the second amendment – that it certainly didn’t intend to mean what it does today – so should we just let both sides start hacking up the constitution?
What I find interesting is that the two parties have flipped – the right is now acting like a “living” constitution crowd and the left has gone to the letter of the law side.
I think before we start fiddling with amendments we need to just secure our borders. We could do it if we tried, but the truth is Washington and politicians just don’t care. Or they seek to add the illegals to their voting lists by giving them amnesty. The problem is that illegals are costing us millions in welfare etc…(YES, I’ve SEEN them get it) and drugs and terrorists and gangs are spilling unchecked over the border. I knew a border patrol agent and the stories he told would send chills up your spine. We need to just secure our borders. period.
Honestly, I don’t really like the idea of getting rid of birthright citizenship. I don’t have a whole lot of arguments on the subject, it just doesn’t sit right with me.
Sydney – I agree with you, but for different reasons. Sure, there are illegals who commit crimes and drain on the economy – though most studies I’ve seen says that overall they are a net positive effect on the economy. One of those reasons though is people take advantage of them – low wages and skirting the laws all for the almighty buck.
We need to refine law to secure borders and help people get into the country legally.
On the flip side, we need reasonable steps to deal with all the people who are here now and are mixed families of US citizens and illegal immigrants.
I’ve been thinking about this and it really seems like a way for us to make ourselves feel like we’re “in control” without being all that effective. I don’t know. It just seems like a bad idea.
Why not just enforce immigration laws?
All these illegal immigrants have to do is announce they will vote Republican and believe me, the Obama administration will build one way monorails back to Mexico, send the 101st airborne to protect the border, and will canonize Jan Brewer.
OK Paladin, 9:32am
Just what are you REALLY insinuating? MMMMM? MMMMMMM?
LOL, good to see you again.
By the way, for those who want to repeal it, how long after birth should we deport the family?
Do they make baby size handcuffs?
EGV,
There won’t be a problem if the family isn’t illegally in the country to begin with.
As a former citizen of Arizona who LEFT to get away from the crime, the drug cartels, and the economy devastated by illegal workers a few points:
1) No, they don’t just take jobs that Americans won’t do. They take a lot of construction jobs Americans would LOVE to have.
2) In Arizona, this wasn’t a huge issue 20 years when the people were coming for jobs. Now they aren’t coming to work. They are coming to expand their drug turf wars. They have publicly put prices on the heads of law enforcement personnel by name. They murder our police officers. Phoenix has the second highest rate of kidnapping in the world… second only to Mexico city.
3) I still don’t agree with repealing the 14th amendment, but it is being subverted and applied incorrectly. If I went to France and happened to give birth, that child would not have French citizenship. (I almost said England and then realized that yes, as my husband is a UK citizen, my children already DO have some rights and a child born there would be a UK citizen. I think I need more sleep! LOL)
The very idea of changing the 14th amendment is as stupid as changing the 13th amendment. Also, the 14th amendment was put in place after slavery was abolished, to insure no more black children would be born into a second class citizenship. In messing with the 14th amendment you are messing with a huge part of African American history.
Elisabeth - 1. Illegal’s do not take jobs Americans want. If Americans wanted those jobs they could have them if they were willing to be paid what the Illegal’s get paid. NO employer would rather hire illegal immigrants over American citizens for the same pay… When someone hires an illegal to do a construction job they are forfeiting any legal recourse if the work isn’t up to specs. They are getting the work done at a discount but if the crew wants to steal their TV and walk off the job what recourse do they have? Can’t call the cops…
2. The drug trade issues could be solved very easy. Legalize non-prescription drugs. Prohibition didn’t work in the thirties and it still doesn’t today. We tax payers have spent billions fighting the “Drug War” and I can still walk down town and get anything you want from oxycottons to heroin. Nowhere in the constitution or the bible for that matter does it say “Thou shall not smoke dope!” Drugs being illegal causes far more damage to families than legalized drugs ever could. Just ask some of the families on the US/Mexican border who have lost family member who have nothing to do with drugs, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
There you go Illegal Immigration solved. Fine the hell out of anyone hiring illegal’s and legalize non-prescription drugs.
There would be no jobs in the US for illegal’s and no jobs south of the border smuggling things into the US. No money, no reason to come to America.
Mary August 21st, 2010 at 4:09 pm
“All these illegal immigrants have to do is announce they will vote Republican and believe me, the Obama administration will build one way monorails back to Mexico, send the 101st airborne to protect the border, and will canonize Jan Brewer.”
Mary,
You rocked on that one!
Ex-GOP Voter August 21st, 2010 at 9:18 am
“Quite frankly, we need the people if we’re going to keep Social Security going. US needs to figure out ways to get more people into the country (but legally).”
RINO,
You have fumbled, bumbled and stumbled into the ‘truth’ one more time.
The dirty little secret is the Social Security Administration knows that revenue is coming in for social security numbers assigned to known dead people [What the heck. if they can vote they ought to be paying taxes.], multiple people are using the same social security number in different parts of the country, and some numbers are just bogus.
But as long as the revenue keeps rolling in the bureaucRATS under the watchful eyes of the democRATS, have adopted the Sargeant Schultz approach: “I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing.”
There is an alternative to recruiting more taxpayers to come to the United States.
Decrease the size of the federal government to that authorized by the constitution.
One more thing… There is another part of this issue that we could all help with, stop giving money to the homeless. If the homeless in this country didn’t make so much money panhandling in the cities they might take some of those illegal’s jobs. I would rather hire a Vietnam vet to retile my bathroom than illegal immigrants any day of the week. The homeless have it so easy in this country that they are a class above illegals.
If you ask a homeless guy in LA if he would like a job picking fruit he will say no… He can make more money per day holding a cup with a clever cardboard sign…FYI I know what I am talking about here my family was homeless for awhile when I was in high school. When we finally got a house it was a disaster, only one room was livable. We all slept in the same room for a time while my dad and I rebuilt the inside of the house on our days off.
Yes Mary – but I’m saying if somebody is in the country illegally, and has a child – how long are these folks saying we should wait until we throw the baby on an airplane and send them back to wherever the family is from?
Or maybe they’ll just put the baby in prison or something.
Um… Mary & Ken,
Illegal’s can not vote…
They are illegal….
Ex-GOP Voter August 21st, 2010 at 5:05 pm
By the way, for those who want to repeal it, how long after birth should we deport the family?
RINO,
Billy boy Clinton, Janet Reno and liberal democRATs had no difficulty sending in a heavily armed federal SWAT team to forcibly remove Ellian Gonzalez from his own flesh and blood and deport the 6 year old back to communist Cuba.
<a href=”http://s575.photobucket.com/albums/ss198/kbhvac/?action=view¤t=elian_gonzalez.jpg” target=”_blank”><img src=”http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss198/kbhvac/elian_gonzalez.jpg” border=”0″ alt=”Elian Gonzalez”></a>
The children who are born here are welcome to stay. Their parents and familly members who are here illegally are not.
I do not believe the mothers will leave their child here when they return to their country of origin.
Uh Biggz,
If granted amnesty they can, that’s the whole point of amnesty.
It just seems to me that citizenship must be tied to parentage somehow. If I’d been born in a foreign country, I would not automatically be a citizen of that nation just by virtue of birth. I’m a citizen of the U.S. because my parents are, no matter where I was born.
Children inherit the citizenship and nationality of their parents, plain and simple. The writers of the 14th Amendment certainly never imagined the law would be misapplied and abused the way it has been now for so long. At least one parent should be a U.S. citizen for the child to be granted citizenship.
Jennifer August 21st, 2010 at 6:58 pm
“Children inherit the citizenship and nationality of their parents, plain and simple. The writers of the 14th Amendment certainly never imagined the law would be misapplied and abused the way it has been now for so long. At least one parent should be a U.S. citizen for the child to be granted citizenship.”
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Jennifer,
Caution is advised. You are straying into ‘birther’ territory. Some might infer that you are making reference to b.o.
Jennifer,
You are correct. An excellent post:
Children born to missionaries, embassy personnel, born on international flights, etc. are citizens of their parents’ country of origin.
You’d think that it would be a no brainer that children born in this country to illegal immigrants are not citizens but apparently that’s not the case.
EGV 6:38PM,
As quickly as we sent back Elian Gonzales.
Hi Ken,
If only our gov’t would show the same force on the border they showed at Waco, TX. Imagine the liberal Democrat outcry if we incinerated Mexican drug runners and criminals instead of American women and children.
Biggz August 21st, 2010 at 6:40 pm
“Um… Mary & Ken,
Illegal’s can not vote…
They are illegal….”
===========================================================
Biggz,
Dead people and felons vote every election.
ACORN workers registered Mickey Mouse to vote.
If there were no voter fraud there would be no need to have enacted laws prohibiting it.
Every attempt to pass a federal or state law to require proof of U. S. citizenship to vote or even proof that the person desiring to vote is who they claim to be, is met with stiff resistance from one political party………democRAT.
Theses are the very same people screaming like a sick old woman of ill repute withe her mammary caught in the wringer about the Arizona law requiring illegals to carry and present proof of immigration status.
Suggest you google Chicago and election fraud and see what you find.
Dead people elected Lyndon Johnson to his first term in the U. S. Senate.
Biggz 6:38PM
Good point. Some of those so-called homeless people I have seen panhandling look very well fed, healthy, and not too shabbily dressed. While there are people on the street who are mentally ill and incapable of caring for themselves, thanks to “deinstitutionalization”, there are people happy to live on handouts. I’ve seen some of the same people on the streets for years.
Also, no illegal aliens would mean the growers have to pay a livable wage. That way they may get more American workers.
I commend you and your family for getting yourselves through such difficult times
My husband is a Canadian Citizen (yes, he’s here legally), I am an American Citizen. Our child was born here in the U.S. As far as everything I’ve read about it on the internet, as she’s an American Citizen she would have to APPLY for Canadian Citizenship, even though she’s HALF Canadian. She’s not granted “automatic citizenship” in Canada just because her FATHER is Canadian. Anyone know otherwise?
Hi Ken,
Why do you suppose there is so much wailing and gnashing of teeth about presenting a picture ID at the voting station? A picture ID? I have to show two picture IDs to take make out of my bank account that I’ve had for 33 years. My daughter moved to another STATE and to establish residence she had to show a birth certificate, SS card, and her passport! I told my daughter to tell them she can’t speak English and no one will touch her, the ACLU will see to that!
You can get a picture ID at no cost. I told this one person who was complaining about a picture ID to vote, a liberal Democrat of course, that if people are too ignorant or incapable of obtaining a free picture ID, then maybe they should quit voting Demorat. Obviously it isn’t getting them too far in life!
Hi Pamela,
My sister in law’s mother is a legal Canadian resident of the US who never gave up her Canadian citizenship, mainly because it would have hurt her father. She married a US citizen and her children are American citizens and like your daughter do not have dual citizenship.
Mary and Ken – thanks. Interesting view, but sure, we’ll leave the illegal baby in the country until they are six.
Mary August 21st, 2010 at 7:10 pm
”Hi Ken,
If only our gov’t would show the same force on the border they showed at Waco, TX. Imagine the liberal Democrat outcry if we incinerated Mexican drug runners and criminals instead of American women and children.”
==============================================================
Mary,
I just moved back to Texas a few months before that fiasco took place.
I remember the video of the original assault by federal law enforcement agents.
[These federal personel were using military grade weapons, armor and tactics against our own civilian population. Not a shining moment for the U.S.A.]
Ann ‘wrinkles’ Richards was the governor at the time.
She did NOT cowgirl up and tell the feds to take a hike. She was pretty much AWOL for the duration.
I remember watching the flames engulf that building and it’s inhabitants on live TV.
The elder Bush’s administration authorized the BATF raid before Clinton took office.
Clinton also gave a thumbs up for the initial raid.
Clinton gave Janet Reno the ‘green light’ to bring the action to a close.
Then Slick let Janet take the fall and twist in the wind when it all went south.
Not suggesting a similar thing could not or would not have occurred under a republican governor or president, but the facts are the facts.
EGV,
I would assume the parents would take the child home with them. Also, that the children would be Mexican citizens since the parents are and have not established a legal residence in the US or anywhere else, pretty much like it is everywhere else in the world.
Hi Ken,
Very interesting. The point is though that Clinton could have given the thumbs down so ultimately it was his responsibility.
Were these people killing anyone, pushing drugs, kidnapping, invading homes etc?
If only such force was used on the border.
Ex-GOP Voter August 21st, 2010 at 7:39 pm
“Mary and Ken – thanks. Interesting view, but sure, we’ll leave the illegal baby in the country until they are six.”
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RINO,
“We”, as in everyone but the babies parents, will have done nothing.
If the mother and father choose to abandon their child, then ‘we’ through our elected governement will provide for the child until he/she is claimed by her/his parents, adopted or old enough to make his/her own way in the world.
By virtue of the fact he/she was born in the United States, he/she will be a ‘natural born citizen’ and receive all the benefits and responsibilities that entails.
Mexico and Central America are not the United States of America, but the citizens of those other countries find a way to survive, if not prosper, in the land of their birth.
A forced return to Mexico or Central America is not like being deported to Cuba.
I have been to Cuba and I can tell you from first hand experience it is not a ‘worker’s paradise’.
Mary,
I don’t believe that kind of force on the border is necessary except against heavily armed drug smugglers.
A visible presence on the border by federal agents would be a deterrent to most peaceful people intent on illegally entering the country.
If there were no ‘legal’ jobs in the United States for illegal and undocumented aliens they would ‘self deport’ to their home countries.
I like the one with the Pilgrims and the Indians.
Mary
Don’t you work in a hospital. What do you think are the health consequences of people walking across deserts to get here. Braving days at sea and facing God knows what to come here so they can what. So they can work. Someone I know had a very poor standard when it came to taking care of animals, he fed them well but he kept them tied to a tree for a very long time. After not have any option to exercise their own will a few went crazy. I don’t think it is remarkable that some illegals go ballistic. I think it is remarkable that some after traveling across deserts, braving seas and weather that few people ever go through have managed to retain their sanity. I’m just addressing though your characterizations of some illegals and using that to justify your conclusions. I think coming up with policies in regards to illegal aliens will require a lot of wisdom. And of course those who inflict bodily harm on persons or their property will be subject to the same consequences as Americans.
Hi myrtle miller,
How do I feel about a rape victim being set afire by her illegal immigrant attackers and horribly scarred physically and mentally for life.
What if this woman was your daughter or sister? What if she was you?
There was just a huge drug bust involving several people, all illegals.
If I enter a country illegally should I have to face the punishment or expect sympathy for how much trouble it was for me to enter the country illegally.?
Sorry Myrtle, but myself, as well as the residents of AZ do not share your charitable view. Yes I’m sure there are people desperate for work, but there are such people the world over.
I think the Mexican gov’t should be addressing their own social problems, i.e. unemployment, poverty but why should they when they have us for a safety valve?
Elisabeth - 1. Illegal’s do not take jobs Americans want. If Americans wanted those jobs they could have them if they were willing to be paid what the Illegal’s get paid.
What planet do you live on? They pay the illegals a fraction of what the job deserves and don’t provide health insurance.
And it’s illegals, not illegal’s. What are you trying to show possession of with the apostrophe s?
Myrtle… Mexican illegals murdered a rancher who provided water so that they would not suffer based upon his humanitarian ideals. They MURDERED him.
There is NO justification for the crimes that are seen daily along the border and throughout states such as Arizona. I got so tired of what came through the trauma bays at the PEDIATRIC hospital… that’s why we moved to Idaho to protect OUR children. There was no way to guarantee their safety in Arizona.
Mary
Repulsed like when Castro opened up his prisons, put them on boats and sent them here. Upon coming here one of the individuals thought it would be humorous to rip open an expecting mom’s abdomen kill her baby and then kill her. Kinda like what’s going on over here except the mom sometimes dies after the baby is killed and it’s legal. Of course it’s not as barbaric that wouldn’t be civilized. No I think you should be judged as an individual and everyone who goes by the name of Mary or shares your gender shouldn’t have to pay for your crime. I was just addressing your characterizations. You can no more speak for the citizens of Arizona than I can. Personally I believe in work permits, quotas on work and or educational permits, and long term absence of committing felonies results in citizenship if that’s what the individual wants. And of course any assalts such as you mentioned would result in lots and lots of jail time and a trip back to home country. I’m not sure how the country of Mexico views the United States because I don’t believe all Mexicans think the same. Like any country they are compromised of individuals.
Hi myrtle,
If you want to know what really fries me is the fact my daughter, an American citizen, in order to establish residence in another STATE must show a birth certificate, not a photocopy mind you, she has to send for it and it better have MY maiden name on it! She also had to show her SS card and is renewing her passport to use that as proof of ID as well! Talk about having to show your papers.
In AZ an illegal can’t even be asked his/her immigration status when stopped for a crime or traffic violation. This is racial profiling! Nazi Germany. Maybe Eric Holder will sue the state my daughter moved to as well as it appears to profile non-residents.
Myrtle there is nothing charitable at work here. These are future Democrat voters that Obama needs in his pocket which is why he sends his goons like Holder to go after the immigration law and is now targetting Sheriff Joe. I wish they went after the drug dealers and criminals with as much fervor.
myrtle miller,
Jimmy Carter being his usual clueless self, opened up our borders to anyone from Cuba who wanted to come over here. so Castro opened up his psych wards and prisons and sent them along with law abiding Cubans.
Of course I support judging people as individuals, but myrtle do you allow total strangers into your home? Can anyone off the street, whatever their race, ethnicity, or gender enter your home? Are you being unreasonable, bigoted, hateful or uncharitable if you only allow people into your home that you know? I think you’re being smart and I hope this good sense would apply to allowing only people you know into your car.
So why should just anyone be allowed to enter the country that we know nothing about?
I’m not assuming to speak for the people of Arizona, they have spoken and Obama has sent his goons to shut them up. Elisabeth is telling you first hand what is happening there, the trauma bay at a PEDIATRIC hospital for heaven’s sake! These animals have no boundaries.
With the illegal immigrants who want to work come the criminal element and the violence, terror, and crime that they bring.
One huge component is this is that Americans need to stop using drugs. Drug cartels are increasingly bold because they are growing rich off addicted Americans.
Part of the reason I avoided pot in college is because, coming from San Diego, I knew it was attached to blood money.
Changing the XIV ammendment sets a bad precedent. With all the rejection of the voters’ will going around lately, it makes me nervous.
And it doesn’t even secure the borders, not by a longshot.
myrtle,
The assault I described should require the assailants be strung upsidedown until they rot, and I don’t mean by their feet. The next best thing would be a Peruvian prison where they would spend 24/7 at the mercy of the worst predators the human race has to offer. Its a lovely thought but the truth is we’ll be supporting them in an American jail, luxurious compared to Mexican ones, for several years.
Mary Ann,
A valid point. Obviously there’s a market or there wouldn’t be the providers. But then if there weren’t the providers there wouldn’t be such a market. Drugs can come from anywhere.
If we adequately secure our borders, which Obama can’t do and hope to win reelection, it would take care of much of the problem.
Isn’t it interesting that an American president, Franklin Roosevelt, had no trouble rounding up American citizens and putting them in concentration camps, but we can’t deport illegals?
What I’m saying is that it is unfair to characterize all illegals by the actions of a few. And from what I read Sheriff Joe had a very good record but I think if I remember correctly some of his officers were a little over zealous in targeting the Hispanic population. I believe there should be balance. I also believe that an officer has a right to ask anyone for identification and if it crosses the line into active harrassment should be treated as such. I think when work permits are issued I would hope background checks are being done. I think fingerprints of individuals should be a matter of record. I’m not sure if you exaggerate on purpose are really believe some of your words. Illegal or legal the criminal element knows no ethnic or racial border it exists in the human heart. Mary if you really believe that all immigrants vote democrat that just isn’t true. And if you believe the borders are being opened so democrats can win elections fight for laws that make the election process more secure. My daughter who is a teacher and has blessed me with two beautiful grandsons is an anchor baby. Her dad who was illegal caused me enough drama to last several lifetimes. I’m sure I caused him enough drama to last several lifetimes. Had I known then what I know now I would have made better choices I’m sure he would have too. He has always been a consistent worker and now has a beautiful family. Something I actually prayed for. To summarize I believe the rights of natural born Americans precede the rights of illegals. It’s part of our legacy compared to most countries we are very fair when it comes to immigrants. I don’t think that marriage should give any illegal the right to citizenship. I also believe that individuals who have left all to come here to work should not be punished for the actions of a few. And where is it illegal to deport illegals?
Hi myrtle,
I understand your point but facts are what they are. The criminal element comes in through the unguarded border with them. I wish the feds would go after the overzealous drug dealers and criminals. I’d worry less about Sheriff Joe’s overzealous officers and more about the children Elisabeth has seen in the trauma bay. Is Eric Holder going after the police depts. in every city who get a little overzealous or is there a particular reason he target Sheriff Joe?
My opinion myrtle is that the Mexican immigrants should have to follow the same path to citizenship that any other immigrant must do. If you think this country is so unkind to Mexican immigrants, check out how the Mexicans treat illegal immigrants to their country. Even if you are naturalized you will not enjoy the rights of a Mexican citizen.
Its not illegal to deport illegals so why are several million still here?
Mary
I respect your fervor there are things that I went through with my second husband that was not addressed by the law that had I been able to address legally he would not have been hanging by something besides his feet, I’m not that cruel, but he would have spent time in jail or a mental institution. Some souls need prayer I now prayer for him will he pay sure he will it’s the law of karma. If he comes to me when karma has delivered it’s verdict will I be there for him sure I will. Will I cry for his soul, sure I will. Because when I was lost in my sin my God thought enough of me to send his son to die for me so that I could be delivered from death to life. Because I am so good, no, because to be lost is just that it is to be lost and to be delivered from death to life is just that. I’m all for securing the borders I’m just not for making villians of all for the actions of a few.
Mary 10:28 p.m. post
I’m not sure my theory in addition to people understanding that we are a nation of immigrants and therefore exercising compassion is that big business was to blame because they benefit off of cheap labor but I’m starting to question that theory. Why do you think there are so many illegal immigrants? Lets try bringing facts or something that we have observed to the debate and not something we have heard. Observation, I know that a lot of hispanics like the republican party because they have an entreprenaural spirit and like the republican party because of this. I also know that the democratic party is moving in this direction. You think that Mr. Holder is targeting sheriff Joe because he’s working for Obama and Obama knows all the illegals will be voting for him. That’s a thought but the other side of the coin could be that Hispanics have a right not to be racially pro-filed. Although in my opinion checking I.D. is not racial profiling but I think the records indicated that the majority of the people being stopped were of hispanic origin.
I think more cameras would be a real solution to secure the borders and to slow down the flow of drugs I think more trained canines would also make a real difference. I also believe that border patrol agents should adhere to what I call the law of two. I don’t understand how they can send one officer or one patrol agent into places that they know have an elevated risk factor. If the area is known for drug trafficking they should also have canines with them. I also believe that people crossing deserts should have some type of access to at the very least water when crossing these areas.
1) it’s not a “few”… illegal immigrants commit a disproportionate number of crimes, they use a disproprotionate share of services, and they refuse to assimilate. Illegal immigrants DO tend to vote Democrat, overwhelmingly.
70% of Arizonans support the law. You don’t get 70% agreement on ANYTHING in Arizona without Hispanic support.
2) LEGAL immigrants and Hispanic citizens who are legal citizens either by birth or legal immigration tend to vote Republican. They tend to be hardworking, entrepreneurial, amazing people.
Illegal immigration HURTS legal immigrants. Legal immigrants, like my husband, overwhelmingly want a stop to illegal immigration.
Trust me, what is happening in Arizona now will spread to other states unless we stop it now. It’s not right and it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and everything to do with respect for the law. If they don’t respect the law in how they get here, why would they respect the law once they are here?
Elisabeth
morning. Let me read your post will be right back.
NAFTA’s impacts in the agricultural sector are clearly visible in the number of people arriving at the U.S. Mexico border waiting to enter the U.S. to find work and support the family left behind in Mexico.
Increasingly, migration is the safety valve that mitigates poverty in rural areas and provides much-needed cash in the form of remittances. In 2001, Mexican immigrants to the U.S. sent roughly $9.9 billion to Mexico. Remittances are not only sent from abroad, however. Internal remittances generated in towns and cities are also sent to rural areas to support family members. Approximately 40 percent of the total rural income51 is attributed to remittances from migrants in urban areas of Mexico as well as immigrants in the United States.
Between 1990 and 2000, census data in the U.S. reveals that the number of Mexican born residents has risen by more than 80 percent. Currently, there are about 20.6 million Mexican-born residents living in the United States. Many are recently displaced farmers from rural areas.52 Table 17 reports the educational level of working age non-student Mexican-born U.S. residents. From 1950 to 2002 the proportion of Mexican migrants with less than a high school education has increased. This is consistent with an increase in the proportion of rural residents with limited access to educational opportunities migrating northwards.
http://www.womenthrive.org/documents/mexicocasestudyfinal.pdf
Elisabeth
I’m not for illegal immigration. I’m for not hastening to judge a group of people for what some are doing. I was not aware that illegal aliens had the right to vote. Do you really believe illegal aliens don’t work hard. Mercy, my first ex-husband was hispanic and woke up at around 5 a.m and came back in the late afternoon. If illegal aliens didn’t work hard they wouldn’t hire them to begin with. I think the hispanic voting block that your referring to usually have grandparents that perhaps came as illegals and were granted citizenship later. I am aware of what happened to that rancher if you read my 12:12 posts those are my views on border control. I’m not against a strong border. I’m for a strong border but I also support policies that encourage work permits and those who have a good history would be given the opportunity of citizenship. I believe we are the nation we are today not because we are free of crime. I’m not aware of any nation that is free of crime. I believe we are who we are today because what other nations did not have the sense to appreciate we welcomed and encouraged assimilation. I believe in assimilation to a degree. I don’t believe an immigrant can completely assimilate. I don’t believe complete assimilation is possible because we are a nation of immigrants. I’m not sure what 70 percent of Arizonians want to see pass as law. As long as it doesn’t target certain populations I don’t see why anyone would have a problem with it. That’s the power of democracy. Remembering not to target populations that’s the power of wisdom.The perpetrators of the crimes you seen while working at the hospital I would hope they were deported. And when businesses face serious fines of course the amount of illegals will decrease. What are your thoughts?
mp
What would be real democracy is instead of importing food from God knows where and having been treated with chemicals that aren’t allowed here is to see a real push made by our government to help those who have spent a number of years working in an agricultural area. I think instead of growing the economies of other countries if we spent more money on our farmers and those who have made serious contributions to our agricultural heritage we would be a healtier and more prosperous country. A few weeks ago the First Lady made the comment that children were not receiving healthy meals via the school system. Wouldn’t it be awesome if they were some type of incentive for farmers to grow and provide organic food for our schools.
Hi myrtle,
I think Elisabeth sums it up very well in her post and I can’t think of anything to add to what she says.
You would think black Americans would not give their blind loyalty to the Democrats when you read of the history of the Democrat Party and its stand in favor of slavery, segregation, and opposition to Civil Rights, but they do. People do not always vote what we consider the logical way.
Whether illegal immigrants are murdering rapists or a heartbeat away from beatification, they have one thing in common. They’re all here illegally. Millions of Americans throughout the years have played by the rules in order to become citizens, and I don’t think people breaking the law should get rewarded for it. If there’s a situation where a person or a family risks death or persecution by returning to the country they came from, there are legal processes in place for them to argue their case. If not, they can apply and wait like everyone else.
Mary – Good point – though we all really are “what have you done for me in the last 5 minutes” type voters!
For the Christians who are in this conversation…abortion is pretty clear and straightforward – but thoughts on what Jesus would say if we told him the dilemma about illegal immigration?
myrtle:
“What I am saying is that it is unfair to characterize all illegals by the actions of a few”
No one is doing that here. The point is that some illegals DO commit heinous crimes–so tell me again why they are allowed to be here when our laws are meant to protect us from such things. This is not a judgment of the character of a people, it has to do with legal versus illegal entry, nothing more.
Ex:
“but thoughts on what Jesus would say if we told him the dilemma about illegal immigration”?
Does Jesus say that He is opposed to governments keeping their borders secured?
I believe Jesus said “render onto Ceaser that which is Ceaser’s. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t Jesus advising his followers to obey the law?
We have enough ‘home grown’ derelicts already.
We don’t need to import more!
That is why there is a process in place to screen visitors and perspective citizens, BEFORE we let them into the country.
Every civilized nation on the face of the earth does the same, including Mexico and Central America.
How interesting. Check out Michael Savage.com. A Texas highway had to be shut down because of Mexican drug violence which has already killed on person.
Mary,
Matt 22:17-21 [as well as Mark 12:17 & Luke 20:25]
Tell us then what You think about this: Is it lawful to pay tribute [levied on individuals and to be paid yearly] to Caesar or not?
But Jesus, aware of their malicious plot, asked, Why do you put Me to the test and try to entrap Me, you pretenders (hypocrites)?
Show me the money used for the tribute. And they brought Him a denarius.
And Jesus said to them, Whose likeness and title are these?
They said, Caesar’s. Then He said to them, Pay therefore to Caesar the things that are due to Caesar, and pay to God the things that are due to God. AMP
To put the preceding passages of scripture into a relevant and contemporary perspective, in countries were Islam is the dominant religion and the people are governed by sharia law, it is not uncommon for non muslims to be required to pay an additional tax to do live and do business there.
I believe, based on the above passage, if asked today if non-muslims and
christians should submit to this discriminatroy ‘tax’, Jesus would probably say, “Yes.”
But Jesus’ answer in Matthew, Mark and Luke is curious to me in this regard.
Why did Jesus point out whose image was on the coin?
Was Jesus just cautiously tip toeing through the legal/political/theological minefield that his false brethren had laid before Him?
Did the ‘tribute/poll tax’ have to be paid in Roman coin or would any currency/coinage of equivalent value be acceptable?
Was there something more at play here that called for an application of the Jewish law and customs?
Any experts in the Mosaic law out there who want to weigh in on the question?
Thanks Ken,
It seems this statement would be open to interpretation.
Maybe Jerry settles the question by pointing out that Jesus never said countries can’t protect their borders. Protecting borders has been a matter of survival throughout history and certainly was in Jesus’ day.
Posted on this elsewhere, mostly copying and pasting….
Honestly, my knee-jerk reaction is against ending birthright citizenship. I’ve chewed on it and I still don’t like it.
I absolutely think that immigration laws need to be enforced and fixed. But I think part of the fix is to remove the barriers in many cases. I don’t think there should be quotas on how many immigrants may be from certain places. If someone wants in for a better future for themselves and/or their families, in general, I think they’re likely to make this country a better place. I do not think the path to citizenship should be eased or reduced, but I think getting in should consist of an interview and a criminal background check (and maybe a medical exam, but not to keep anyone out). There needs to be a way to keep them (and everyone) from milking the system–perhaps no benefits to noncitizens, paired with connecting them to food banks and local charities that can help them find a job? But I don’t think those coming to the country to better themselves are the problem.
Regardless of the illegality of their parents’ entry into this country, the children haven’t done anything wrong. I think that the whole idea that everyone is equal once they are here, that if one is born here, he or she is one of us, is exactly the kind of magnanimous, Christian, charitable attitude that has helped make our country the place that so many aspire to come. We don’t care who your parents are, or what they did–you are a new person with a new chance to make something of yourself.
If we let the “good guys” in more easily–honest people who want to work for a living and for their families to grow up in a stable, free country–it will be easier to keep people like drug runners and other criminals out. With it being very easy to get in legally if one’s motives are good, it’s a good bet anyone trying to jump a fence or dig a tunnel or somesuch doesn’t have good motives. Go ahead and build a fence or a wall–but do put a gate in it. Also, it would do away with the exploitation of illegal immigrants for cheap labor.
As far as amnesty goes, I don’t think it should be a blanket amnesty–there should be requirements and perhaps some sort of fine–but the goal should be to let those who are honest, productive people to remain here, while establishing documentation so that they can be tracked and taxed and accounted for in all the ways we need to (we need reliable population data for emergency services and such–and free public school, which I don’t think should be government funded).
If you want English to be the official language, go ahead and do it–right now it isn’t. Businesses can freely cater to immigrants or not. Communities of immigrants with different languages, religions, and customs have existed since our country’s founding. So long as they still follow our laws, I don’t see that as a problem. If a custom is illegal, no, they shouldn’t follow it. If we think it ought to be, we can make a law. But frankly, in our country we kill our own children, teach them to have sex at a young age with whoever is willing as a form of entertainment, and tell them that religion has no place in life outside of church. I don’t see how letting in some diversity is going to do any further harm, and it just might help. I think that there’s a lot more threat to my children’s values from all-American natural-born citizens than from immigrants.
Just my thoughts.
Why doesn’t anyone ask about the 5,000,000 mortgage defaults by illegals that basically triggered the current economic crisis?
And how many of those walked away with refinance cash and are now living like millionaires on stolen money in their homeland?
God expects us to obey the law.
Illegals are living a lie for economic benefit.
This will end up in disaster.
Sorry, but you folks just don’t get it.
Instead of talking about constitutional amendments, why aren’t you talking about the causes of the mass migration from Mexico, which was caused by NAFTA’s impact on Mexico’s agricultural sector?
[sounds of crickets chirping]
I strongly suggest you pull your heads out of your ideology and start addressing something called facts.
“Why doesn’t anyone ask about the 5,000,000 mortgage defaults by illegals that basically triggered the current economic crisis?”
That statement is absolutely laughable–has absolutely no relation to the facts–and does not even deserve a reasoned response.
I’m outta here. Have a nice life.
YCW, I agree with a lot of what you said.
It’s a hard subject to come to any real conclusions about, so all I ever seem able to do is point to other people who have articulated my own feelings quite well, and that’s what I’m doing right here. ;)
Sorry… late for the party again.
Mary wrote:
OK Paladin, 9:32am: Just what are you REALLY insinuating? MMMMM? MMMMMMM? LOL, good to see you again.
:P Touche! Likewise, Milady!
I think Ken summed it up pretty well – we’re subject to the laws of the land, as long as they aren’t unjust laws (which is why abortion laws are fought so hard against). I think an honest Christian can make the case that a wealthy nation such as ours shouldn’t turn away oppressed people of the world – the big question would be what qualifies as “oppressed”.
Politicians have kicked this around for too many years – I suppose there’s a lot of economic and legal factors at play. Hopefully, something will finally get done in regards to immigration policy to both keep illegals out, but also figure out ways to reform the system to get people in when they are going about it correctly.
but i thought we had enough resources in the united states to go around to every child? isn’t that a main plank of the pro-life position?
maybe illegal immigrants should abort. :0!
Please do not talk to me about honest “illegals” versus criminals. Does no one know what the word “illegal” means anymore? If they are here illegally… they ARE CRIMINALS!
I lived in Arizona. Phil lives there. Do the rest of you live in border states and have to deal with this, or is this just an intellectual exercise for you?
Classic – throw out people’s opinions if they don’t live in super cool border states like Arizona or Idaho.
Maybe people who haven’t had an abortion shouldn’t get to talk about abortions now.
Ken
There’s probably more to the passage that I just don’t see yet but I think Jesus like his father God was just very very good at spotting hypocrisy.
Jerry
Show me where I justified those who committed heinous crimes being able to stay here. When you are unable to feed your family and even after working like a dog cannot provide yourself or your family with a decent living and live next to a country where you can do an honest days work and at the very least provide the essentials when you’ve experience that then come back and preach to me.
I don’t think the solution is granting millions of people legal status or opening up our borders. I think a better solution is work permits and then those who want to be citizens would have that option and of course those that chose a life of crime wouldn’t be eligible.
And if this is being looked at from a biblical standpoint I can remember of only one group of people that God specifically instructed a prophet that they were not to welcomed among the Jews. And I’m so against drug trafficking that if God said myrtle your calling is to be drug czar educate yourself that will be your next job. My reply would be Father you must really love us. I think those that traffic in drugs first of all need to be saved but I think anything that is legal that can be done to stop them is good. I’m so against illegal drugs that where is it they grow I think it’s called poppy, I cursed that ground so it would no longer be able to grow that illegal substance and prayed that God would give them the ability to grow a good crop that would provide them with a good income and wouldn’t hurt people. I’m completely sympathetic with any state that is having to deal with people whose only goal is party, party, kill a few people throw baubles at the community that supports them and then kill again. I think they are acting like predators and this kind of behavior should be easy to stop not difficult. I would start by telling them that they are better than that. And I would also tell them it doesn’t take courage to kill it takes courage to live. And that sometimes life is hard that’s so when you do get blessed you appreciate it more. I would also encourage them to face whatever it is that make them so afraid that they behave so recklessly. And of course I would pray for their healing. That’s how I would start and then I would make sure that ships coming into port be subject to spot checks and in areas where there is known drug trafficking the law of two would be implemented. The national guard or some other type of military group would be posted until bad boys and girls had a clear understanding that we don’t want our nation ruled by drug lords.
Jill, I think you might know where I stand on this…..and I wish I had time to read all the comments here. I will tell you that if the Republican Party stops defending the Fourteenth Amendment, I will cease to be a Republican. I’m an Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Republican……..and now that Mike Huckabee has spoken out for the Fourteenth Amendment, I guess you could now call me a Huckabee Republican, too, and everything that implies. I thank you for asking the question and I hope people will try to use their common sense and ability to reason as this issue is discussed. The Fourteenth Amendment provision in the pro-life plank of the Republican Party MUST REMAIN INTACT.
EGV wrote:
I think an honest Christian can make the case that a wealthy nation such as ours shouldn’t turn away oppressed people of the world – the big question would be what qualifies as “oppressed”.
There are more questions and concerns than that. First: who says that we’re turning them away? Is “requiring proper immigration procedures” now “tunring people away”, by definition? I don’t think so, and I don’t see why you (or anyone else) would.
Second: did you ever read/hear the fable of the Golden Goose? The idea of “let all illegal aliens in” sounds nice to the soft-hearted (and soft-headed) person; but isn’t it relevant that the “golden goose” of “rich America” would very likely die if overloaded by an unlimited number of “oppressed people”? The USA has financial problems of its own, in case you haven’t heard; despite the profusion of food, cars and printed money, we also have a DEBT that few other countries (if any? I’m not quite sure) can match. How will we PAY for all these millions of new people? Charge it to the USA’s American Express card? The hordes of people who come in will be in a meagre position to thank us if it causes the collapse of the nation’s economy, yes?
I think it’s interesting that so many are so willing to throw off the amendment that can end abortion in America because they are so anxious to throw out immigrant babies.
Wow. I edited that but what I wrote originally was posted. I edited it so it didn’t sound so preachy or condescending but the overall message was still accountability. Well today is Sunday! :)
Paladin –
Your second argument – isn’t that the exact same thing that some people have made regarding why we need abortion?
Elizabeth
I was aware of what happened to the rancher but really thought these were isolated incidences. Do you think the difference between the drug trade in the other states and arizona is that they are putting hits out on law enforcement. If you think incidences are occurring that are specifically related to people who are directly across the arizona border and it’s not being addressed why doesn’t the state invest in infomercials so the rest of the country is aware of what’s going on. Anytime illegal activity is interferring with peoples safety I believe if drastic measures that are legal are needed than drastic measures should be applied.
Paladin – I know that one is a matter of certain life and death, while the other is possible life and death…I’m just trying to remember, from a Christian standpoint, when Jesus said to help people out unless you are pretty strapped at the moment, and then you can move on with you life.
Paladin
I think if the business community really woke up and seen the opportunities that are present because of the labor force that is available and looked at it as a plus instead of a negative, things would get better. I agree partially with your analogy about the golden goose I don’t think as a nation we would be able to handle opening our borders up we would not be able to handle the influx. But when we see more people as only taxing our economy we are not presenting the entire picture. Most people are contributing to the economy not just taking so there is a balance. I think the best thing we could do to make our country more viable is to stop growing the economies of other countries and start insisting that our tax dollars stay here.
Why does Arizona have to get “permission” from other states when running its own laws? The federal government is overstepping its bounds after abandoning its post. States are not just groupings of people who like a particular state slogan… they are separate geo-political units.
EGV wrote:
Paladin – I know that one is a matter of certain life and death, while the other is possible life and death.
And I know that you’re throwing out raw hyperbole, here. You’re seriously suggesting that all potential illegal immigrants face “certain death” if they don’t try to cross the border? Every last one of them? America is such a magical land of good and plenty that–at least for these poor souls–it conquers death, itself? Wow…
Care to try again, using realism?
I’m just trying to remember, from a Christian standpoint, when Jesus said to help people out unless you are pretty strapped at the moment, and then you can move on with you life.
Well… if you’re going to throw irrelevant sarcasm around, let me try:
I’m just trying to remember, “from a Christian standpoint”, what Jesus told Judas who was so very upset about the anointing of Jesus’ feet with costly perfume by Mary… and in the face of feeding very many poor people, with almost a year’s wages, yet! Tsk. (See John 12:1-8, if you need a hint.)
Again: ready to discuss reality, or would you like to spar in la-la land, a bit more?
Myrtle wrote:
I think if the business community really woke up and seen the opportunities that are present because of the labor force that is available and looked at it as a plus instead of a negative, things would get better.
I doubt it would be that simple. For instance: what sorts of jobs would be offered to these people who speak little, broken, and/or no English, and who probably have little in the way of advanced training? I’m thinking “janitor, ditch-digger, day laborer”, and other low-end jobs which pay starvation wages. The high-end jobs, by which one could pay an appreciable amount of tax, are almost always for those with a high degree of training, education, fluency in communication, etc.
Most people are contributing to the economy not just taking so there is a balance.
Again, that depends. Are they buying food and clothing, etc.? Almost certainly; I’ll grant you that. But such people will almost certainly NOT have the resources to purchase health insurance, auto insurance, etc., nor will they have the financial resources to pay large bills (e.g. hospital, auto collision, etc.) out-of-pocket. (Heck, *I* couldn’t pay large bills like that, out-of-pocket, and I have a “professional” job! Any serious bills/costs will default, if one are without the means to pay for them… and “society” (i.e. the taxpayer) takes up the huge bill, and the economy suffers. And since the “socialized medicine” model (closely followed by any “socialized automotive model”) is a proven disaster which is destined to implode, financially (witness any “socialized medicine” system in the world, to see that), there’s no other option but to “have the government pick up the tab”–i.e. go into debt. But we can’t go into debt forever; the golden goose will die, eventually… and I really don’t want to see what happens if/when the USA goes bankrupt. Do you?
I think the best thing we could do to make our country more viable is to stop growing the economies of other countries and start insisting that our tax dollars stay here.
Well… again, there are two sides to that. If the other countries’ economies get stronger, then there’ll be less incentive to come HERE. We don’t see many people fleeing the United States to emigrate to Rwanda, for example–at least, not usually for financial reasons. I don’t pretend to know what’s the best foreign policy, re: helping to stimulate other economies (that’s out of my direct field–and I loathe economics, as a science); but there it is.
EGV wrote:
Paladin – Your second argument – isn’t that the exact same thing that some people have made regarding why we need abortion?
The EXACT same thing? Look, EGV… I’m really tired of trying to fight hyperbole with fact; you’ll need to neaten up your argument, and use your terms a bit more carefully, or it’s a “no-go”, here. Lay out your argument, step by step, and avoid hyperbole and drama, and we’ll go from there.
By the way, EGV: I notice that you didn’t address my first “argument”; care to give it a shot?
Paladin
So who says what you started off doing is what you end up doing. That’s why people come over here because the chance for advancement exists. There’s a gentleman of course he was originally from here he was a janitor decided to go to school to be a teacher. Did just that and worked while he attended school. Now he’s a teacher and I think at the end of the day expects his students to help pick up. I think you are underestimating how a lot of little adds up to a lot. So whose fault is it that the pharmaceautical companies refuse to rein in their greed. Sorry that’s my view. Exagerrated prices for a few years help them to recover monies spent on research and I would think government monies also contribute to research done by pharmaceautical companies. So I don’t waste to much sympathy on them. Where’s the balance between socialized medicine and medicine that is affordable that provides quality care and is equitable for medical providers and consumers, I’m not sure. But I know it exists. In my opinion the only danger to socialized medicine is when anyone that’s not the consumer or patient starts deciding what they think is best for the patient. Insurance companies to some degree are already guilty of this. I think with socialized medicine this would occur with more frequency.
mp:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/225766/illegal-loans/michelle-malkin
Myrtle, I hope everyone who ever wants to come over here does. Just do it legally. That is NOT so hard to ask.
without immigrants the total fertility rate in California is 1.49.
Shrinking population = economic depression
pick your poison
Why is it they screamed “overpopulation!!!” back when Americans were having kids, but all of a sudden there is plenty of room for immigrants and their kids?
There’s something scwewy goin’ on.
why did the know it all’s change their minds? hmm.
Even if they repeal the 14th amendment, there will still be the enforcement issue.
How will they enforce it? Will they enforce it?
If they refuse to enforce the current law, they will refuse to enforce others.
It is totally corrupt.
We have this idea of rule of law. The elites do not.
They thwart the laws. Rule of law is dying if not dead.
Bush didn’t enforce immigration law nor did others before him.
Why would Obama be the first?
He signed an exec order to close Gitmo.
Is it closed?
Going further in this direction, the American “Left” political platform has been evolved and molded over time so that there really is no American Left. It is a FakeLeft.
If the GOP is in control, then taxes are low, the war machine is a go, worker protections are degraded, etc.etc.
And if the Dems are in control, the diversity/cheap labor machine is a go, and the aspects of fakeLeftism that distract from populist economics issues are in focus: i.e., gay rights, enviro-worship, anti-religion, hillbilly-hating, rise to the fore.
It’s a Win-Win situation for Capital in America because, you see, there is no True Left.
Obama must be laughing when folks call him a marxist because his policies help Capital the most and workers will be taxed to create gain for capitalists.
Most of you think you are on the right because of religion or because the media say you are on the right, but you have much in common with what a True Left would look like.
Elisabeth
I don’t think our system could handle everyone who wants to come here. Something that I would think would reduce the amount of illegals is just an educating campaign explaining to them what is the legal process and probably for less money than they pay the coyote they could get that process going or completed. I really think if more work permits were issued a lot of illegals would chose to work here part time and go back home. What a lot of them make here in a few months will provide a higher standard of living in their own countries. It’s not hard to ask when your surrounded by hope and know that your work will be rewarded and that a reasonable amount of your efforts will be rewarded. If you were to have to work like a dog and still have very little your instinct for survival might tell your conscience that honest work is still honorable even when it is being done illegally. I think work permits are a better idea and would probably spread democracy better than just giving countries money so it can be spent on God knows what. Give an individual a work permit and they work over here and then go back home there standing in their own community increases they get a good idea of how democracy works and when they go back to their own countries they expect it. What are your thoughts?
Concerning the 14th Amendment: we can fix that by mandating abortions for all those illegal aliens; then they won’t give birth to anchor babies. Because HEY, those fetuses aren’t citizens, and neither are their parents, therefor, they don’t deserve the right to life.
And while we’re going to call these immigrants ‘illegals’ because they broke the law, let me ask you this: what dictates right and wrong? Is it the legality of something as stated by law? If you are going to follow that mentality, have some consistency and realize that abortion is RIGHT, because its legal, just as those immigrants are criminals and ‘wrong’, because they broke a law to get here.
And since we want to re-write the Constitution according to our politcal agenda, maybe they should have an amendment specifically stating the medical privacy for abortion, so its set in stone. Isn’t the Constitution awesome? We can defend all we want when we agree with it, but then when we don’t, we can just go and edit it however we want. AWESOME, I tell ya!
………….
I’ve almost reached the point where I shall no longer read this blog, and as someone who is passionately pro-life, I say this with sadness and a great deal of regret. Why? Because you are littering this blog-a blog that should be FOCUSED on abortion issues-into another run-of-the-mill right-wing agenda pusher. I come here to read about the abortion issue, not deal with the commentary of dispassionate people who refuse to see the humanity in ALL human beings, but who somehow still say ‘abortion is wrong cause Jesus loves the little children! We should see the humanity in ALL the babies!’-and then in the same breath generalize that all undocumented immigrants are viscous criminals who are drug trafficking and kidnapping. Remember that this country is a stolen one, and that this land was built on the blood and bones of a native race by undocumented immigrants fleeing the oppression of their homelands and searching for opportunity; these new immigrants are NOT any different.
That being said: if you can’t respect the decency and right to life, liberty and happiness for ALL human beings, why call yourself pro-life at all? Why call yourself Christian and pro-life if you only see a viscous criminal in the undocumented immigrant, and not another human being like yourself, who is struggling to do whatever they can to improve their life? This is a fallacy in Conservative/Christian mentality. We are only ‘pro-life for all human beings’ when it fits the cubbyhole of what we think is ‘right’, but are so ready to make exceptions when we perceive it to be somehow ‘wrong’, never mind if deportation and ridiculous immigration laws mean that families are severed for years or that they struggle by on 5 dollars a week, or suffer under oppressive, indifferent and/or corrupt governments, in a land torn by violence-they should suffer through those 10 years of immigration process to get here ‘legally’…..AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND this has turned into an overlong rant. Some of the comments on this blog angered and depressed me exceedingly. This shall probably be my last comment on this blog, so the length is appropriate.
@Phil Schembri
October 9, 2008
Phoenix Business Journal
HUD cries foul over illegal immigrant mortgage data
The U.S. Department of Housing & Urban Development says there is no basis to news reports that more than 5 million bad mortgages are held by illegal immigrants.
A HUD spokesman said Thursday his agency has no data showing the number of illegal immigrants holding foreclosed or bad mortgages.
But news reports, including one aired on KFYI-AM 550 in Phoenix, cite HUD as a source for the illegal immigrant mortgage number. The widely read “Drudge Report” posted a link to the KFYI report, but as of Thursday afternoon the link no longer connected to the story.
Anti-immigration groups point to subprime and foreclosed mortgages given to undocumented immigrants, particularly in cities hard hit by the mortgage crisis, such as Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Diego, Miami and Las Vegas, which also have large immigrant populations.
mp note: Michelle Malkin and the Drudge Report sure sounds like an agenda to me. What’s your excuse for not having your facts straight?
Read more: HUD cries foul over illegal immigrant mortgage data – Phoenix Business Journal
@Phil Schembri
October 9, 2008
Phoenix Business Journal
HUD cries foul over illegal immigrant mortgage data
The U.S. Department of Housing & Urban Development says there is no basis to news reports that more than 5 million bad mortgages are held by illegal immigrants.
A HUD spokesman said Thursday his agency has no data showing the number of illegal immigrants holding foreclosed or bad mortgages.
But news reports, including one aired on KFYI-AM 550 in Phoenix, cite HUD as a source for the illegal immigrant mortgage number. The widely read “Drudge Report” posted a link to the KFYI report, but as of Thursday afternoon the link no longer connected to the story.
Anti-immigration groups point to subprime and foreclosed mortgages given to undocumented immigrants, particularly in cities hard hit by the mortgage crisis, such as Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Diego, Miami and Las Vegas, which also have large immigrant populations.
mp note: Michelle Malkin and the Drudge Report sure sounds like an agenda to me. What’s your excuse for not having your facts straight?
Read more: HUD cries foul over illegal immigrant mortgage data – Phoenix Business Journal
Hippie
We’re still blessed. Look at our history. All the protests in the 60’s and 70’s did accomplish good. Did you know Nixon holds the record for being the most environmentally friendly president in the last four decades? I know you’re name is Hippie and I doubt you consider yourself a hippie per se but you have proved a theory I have about true hippies. Maybe it’s the nickname. Anyway this is my theory about true hippies they will listen and listen and may not always side for truth but if left for a long enough period of time and the truth has yet to be spoken. Count on a hippie to speak it. That’s referring to your 11:01 post. Amen.
Stephanie
You should hang around. Except for the occasional sarcasm when someone doesn’t agree the overall atmosphere is one where everyone grows. You don’t have to have thick thick skin you just have to know what you believe in. And they really respect life experience because they have good work ethics. That’s my conclusion anyway.
I think tinkering with the 14 th amendment is a terrible idea. It’s going to open up a huge can of worms down the road. There are going to be a lot of cases that we won’t know what to do with, and racist people will want to handle these cases as harshly as possible.
For example, imagine a young anglo woman, whose family has been in the U.S. since pilgrim days. No question about her citizenship, right? So her kids will be safe too, right? Maybe not. What if her boyfriend is an illegal alien from Mexico, and he’s the father of her baby? Is the baby a citizen? Or do we just say the children of illegals are automatically illegal too. So the child of little miss pilgrim descendant has to go back to Mexico. And if the baby’s father is off somewhere and can’t be found to take the child? Do we just snatch the baby out of the mother’s arms, ship him to the border, and abandon him on the other side? Demand Mexico take the kid and find an orphanage in Mexico to take him? Pretty silly if the child already has an American mother who loves him and wants to raise him.
And how many generations do we go back in deciding who to strip citizenship from? If you’re an illegal alien because your parents are, what about grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents? Are we willing to create a class of people who are never citizens in the land, not only of their birth, but their ancestors birth?
How many generations are we going to chase people with the illegal tag by birth, until we say give the poor kid a chance? We could end up with lots of blond-haired, blue-eyed people who are denied citizenship because their great-great-grandparent was a black-haired, brown skinned illegal. Not that pigmentation should factor into it. If we were truly a Christian nation, that wouldn’t matter. Unfortunately, many people who claim to be Christians actually aren’t, so I think it will matter.
I think ‘anchor babies’ is just a label. I don’t have a problem with immigrants having babies here, legal or illegal. If the parents are undocumented, then find a constructive way to document them. The children shouldn’t be punished for the crimes of the parents by being put in some kind of legal limbo. They’re people, after all, even if they’re small children.
More on the Arizona radio station that invented the 5,000,000 bogus Hispanic subprime mortgages:
April 24, 2006
Associated Press via KVOA
Brian James, a fill-in talk show host with Phoenix AM radio station KFYI, suggested on the air last month that a solution to the immigration problem in Arizona would be to kill illegal immigrants as they cross the border.“What we’ll do is randomly pick one night every week where we will kill whoever crosses the border,” James said in the March 8 broadcast. “Step over there and you die. You get to decide whether it’s your lucky night or not. I think that would be more fun.”He said he would be “happy to sit there with my high-powered rifle and my night scope” and kill people as the cross the border. He also suggested that the National Guard shoot illegal immigrants and receive “$100 a head.”In a letter to Martin, Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard and U.S. Attorney Paul Charlton called the remarks irresponsible and dangerous.
mp note: Sound honest, upstanding and Christian to you?
http://ashwinsharma.com/2006/04/24/officials-radio-hosts-call-to-kill-border-crossers-dangerous.aspx
Pamela you are right. My son was born in Spain and when we moved here to Canada, we had to apply for my son’s citizenship. After that he could get a passport. I forgot about health care. I suspect he needed his citizenship card to get the Alberta health care. It is logical.
“I think ‘anchor babies’ is just a label. I don’t have a problem with immigrants having babies here, legal or illegal. If the parents are undocumented, then find a constructive way to document them. The children shouldn’t be punished for the crimes of the parents by being put in some kind of legal limbo. They’re people, after all, even if they’re small children.”
There is no other country in the world where you can just go and live with no permission of their government. This argument that they are people just like we are is silly. People live all over the world and have exactly no right to move into another country without the permission of the folks already there. How about Japan’s or Israel’s immigration policy? Basically no immigration into Japan unless you can prove you are Japanese, similar in Israel. Lot’s of countries have tight immigration policies. People are entirely capable of living right where they are. They don’t need to come here. Personally, I am fine with immigration, so long as we are sure the folks coming in aren’t criminals or diseased, just the usual stuff. Legal immigrants are less likely to be criminals than our general population because they have to prove they have no criminal record before they come in. Illegal immigrants are far more likely to be criminals. There is no need for hypothetical or ideologic arguments. We have plenty of Dept. of Justice data on the behavior of legal and illegal immigrants.
Japan is not a country I want to hold up as an example of how we should behave, especially not on a pro-life blog. The need for documentation is paramount. I have identification, I have to present it when I open a bank account. Making the parents accountable is what needs doing. Are the parents criminals? Then process them as such. Are they not criminals except for the illegal immigration? Then hold them accountable for breaking that law. But don’t punish their children. Babies don’t commit crimes. The parents can decide whether to give up parental rights altogether or take the child back to their home country with the child having dual citizenship. I have no problem with that. If I commit a crime such as robbery and go to jail, then my minor child would either be raised by his father, our extended family, or other legal arrangements would be made. That should not affect my child’s citizenship.
The larger issue here is how HARD it is to get worker’s permits or citizenship status in the US. It’s not like it’s really easy to move here and immigrants are just too lazy to apply. They make it harder and harder. I suspect that even if we increase just visas and workers permits then we would be whole WORLDS ahead of where we are now in terms of legal residents and immigrants.
It is easier to get visas here than for just about any other country in the world. When I was younger and my mother and I traveled all over the world, the process for getting visas just to travel was harder than it was for any of the co-workers at one of my places of business to get a visa to come here and work.
Paladin – so you are so upset at me that you threaten to boycott debate, yet follow-up minutes later asking me to answer your first question. Sure, my answer was dramatic – I just have a hard time figuring out where money plays into morality. In abortion it doesn’t matter, health care it does, unless the person is old and dying – then it isn’t an issue. But it is will illegals. I’m trying to keep up, but wondering if there’s a right-wing hand guide out there!
I didn’t think your first of two points was really worth replying to quite frankly – unless my assumption is wrong – I’ve assumed this whole time that those in favor of repealing the 14th amendment would like to send people back to where they came from.
So I think I agree with you if you’re talking about the current situation – that is a question – what is oppressed and what is turning away. I’ve been talking about what I think the desired situation is for those who want to repeal, and that is putting people on an airplane and sending them back to where they came from.
This is going to sound bad but… I really don’t care about people in AZ, NM, or TX.
First off you guys are arguing over a desert that we took from Mexico in the first place. I live Northwest and we have a ton of illegal or migrant workers and most of them are just fine to get along with. I would have no problem if we put them all on a 10 year path to citizenship. My sister works for the welfare office up here and she feels the same way. She told me that when Mexicans come in for food stamps “they are cards now” she knows that that food is going to feed a family of 16 lol but when a fat ghetto chic “black or white” comes in to get food for her 3 kids with freshly done hair, nails, and brand new fubu clothes….
My sister tells a great story about how when she first started at the welfare office, she did in fact work at the food stamp window. This black woman comes in with 3 kids and a baby in a stroller. All three kids were dirty and still had some breakfast in their hair. The woman tells my sister she wants her stamps, so she looks her name up and guess what, she has no more benefits. The woman starts going off at the top of her lungs, “how am I going to feed my children!!!” and “This is just racist you fat white bitch!” (I love the claim of racism followed by a racist comment lol) My sister who has far more patience than I do says, well if your kids are hungry you might think about selling just one piece of that gold jewelry your wearing… “she had on 3 gold necklaces, a ring for every finger and she was wearing all brand new designer clothes” the woman says ”why bitch you looking for some more riches to take from us N*ggers” my sister, without hesitation, said “no, I’m sure we already bought those for you as it is…” It’s not the Illegal’s putting mass amounts of strain on our social services… It’s lazy Americans.
I know it sounds bad but, I just don’t care about the desert and the people dumb enough to live there…
Well Biggz…I live near Philly and met illegals who were just as lazy as your welfare mom there. And even though illegal they were receiving benefits? how is that?
Biggz,
Have you ever even BEEN to Texas? I hate to inform you, but it isn’t all desert down here. Not only that, but have you forgotten us Texans have a little place called Houston down here and it’s the 4th largest city in the USA?
Before Obama did away with the program, Houston was known for the NASA program which helped with technological advancements.
What about Austin? Austin is a thriving city, for one thing–it’s got UT for another, among other city-life advancements. Let’s see, Schullenburg is not just a desert either, there’s lots of farms and ranches around–and farms and ranches are helpful in feeding you Northwesterners.
You seem to have forgotten that we Texans have contributed mightily to the economy, technology, agrigculture (Texas A&M to name one that’s contributed), and politics of the United States.
I’ve been up to the Northwest, and it’s pretty and all, but I wouldn’t dismiss this large Southern State as simply “desert”.
myrtle:
“Jerry
Show me where I justified those who committed heinous crimes being able to stay here. When you are unable to feed your family and even after working like a dog cannot provide yourself or your family with a decent living and live next to a country where you can do an honest days work and at the very least provide the essentials when you’ve experience that then come back and preach to me.”
Sadly, myrtle, you missed the point. I quoted you accurately. Here is what you said (in quotes) followed by my comment:
“What I am saying is that it is unfair to characterize all illegals by the actions of a few”
my response:
No one is doing that here. The point is that some illegals DO commit heinous crimes–so tell me again why they are allowed to be here when our laws are meant to protect us from such things. This is not a judgment of the character of a people, it has to do with legal versus illegal entry, nothing more. (end)
Where did I say in the above that you “justified those who committed heinous crimes being able to stay here”? I was simply bemoaning the fact that our laws are not being enforced, where you seem more concerned that other Hispanics are being unfairly judged by the actions of a few. The priority issue here is not that the actions of a few may taint the many, rather the issue is illegal immigration and why was that bad apple here in the first place.
The fact is that you speak very passionately about the issue, much of which comes from personal experience. And yet very few people are speaking as passionately about our own citizens who are losing their homes due to losing their jobs, even as hundreds of thousands of good jobs are being held by people who have no legal right to be here.
Jerry
The point I was making is in order to tell anyone something again it must have been said previously something that I didn’t do. I was in no way defending someone being here illegally.
I think your being a purist though when you expect strict adherance to the law. I do not think logistically this is even possible. And in order to judge if there making a real effort to keep illegal aliens out of the country you would have to look at other countries that border mexico and compare what there illegal alien population is. Someone who leaves family and country to come work here so they can send the majority of their money home to family in my opinion is not a bad apple. I do agree though that Americans having every right to be upset when there jobs are being given to illegal aliens. Given not taken. You see the point I’m making? Who should be more accountable business owner of or illegal alien. And because there Americans they can allow that big hatred pot to be stirred and what happens people start fighting. Business owner gets chided and fined some loose change all is the same oh same oh a year down the road. What they need to do is say now business owner we are going to give you a license. Break the law twice by knowingly hiring illegals, first time you get fined more than loose change. Second time you lose your license. I feel the same way about bars that sell liquor to minors. There would have to be clear proof though that the owner knew and or was complicit with the illegal actions. Or you can say we shall await the calvary to round up all these law breakers so our citizens can once again have jobs, all the while, those that really control the situation, the business owner is held to a much lower degree of accountability. When I see that hatred pot stirred I usually ask myself who is really benefitting from all of this. Is what your really saying, is that in your opinion, no real effort is being made by our government to remedy the situation.
I tried to edit it buy failed. my conclusion is that all three are accountable and in my opinion government would have the greater degree of accountability, then the business owner and of course the illegal alien it’s just hard to get upset with anyone engaged in honest work even though here illegally. What are your thoughts?
Sorry for the delay; access to internet is spotty.
EGV wrote:
Paladin – so you are so upset at me that you threaten to boycott debate, yet follow-up minutes later asking me to answer your first question.
Back up. First, check your starting assumptions: I’m not upset. Honest. I’m not. If I ever am, I’ll let you know explicitly.
I said I was tired of (not upset by) walking into ill-defined, hyperbolic statements (which often “morph” into something utterly different, once I try to reply to them), and that I wanted you to stick to logic–since the former have proven to be an utter waste of time. I’m also trying to get you to define your terms and your arguments more neatly, so that we can have a logical give-and-take, rather than a rhetorical flailing match.
Sure, my answer was dramatic – I just have a hard time figuring out where money plays into morality.
I was emphasizing the FEASIBILITY of the “golden goose’s survival”–not the raw morality of the cost. If the United States had limitless money (and not just lots of green paper whose value gets lower and lower) and limitless resources, then it’d be a very different matter. If something is likely doomed to fail–and if the attempt will result in evil effects in its own right–then that is certainly a relevant factor in determining its morality, don’t you think?
Translation: I wasn’t saying, “Don’t do it, because it’s too expensive!” I was saying, “This won’t work, and it’ll defeat itself.” That’s a very different concern, I think.
Think back to the Catholic teaching on “just wars”: one necessary component of a “just war” is that the effort has a reasonable chance of success; if not, then the war could not be considered “just”. The same principle applies in all human efforts which would involve incidental suffering in the attempt.
In abortion it doesn’t matter, health care it does, unless the person is old and dying – then it isn’t an issue. But it is will illegals. I’m trying to keep up, but wondering if there’s a right-wing hand guide out there!
Back up.
First of all, abortion is the deliberate choice to kill an unborn child. It is an inhuman crime, and there is never any circumstance which would justify it–no factors to weigh; it’s simply intrinsically wrong, and it must be stopped. Clear enough?
Second of all: where did you get the clap-trap about health care not mattering for the old and dying? That’s a position which YOUR “side of the aisle” takes, remember? You might want to get the beliefs of both sides quite clear in your mind, before you go too much further with this. No… “health care” (which is not at all to be confused with “health insurance”–a distinction which I don’t think you’ve made, yet) is a universal human right, and no one is to be denied any such care which is feasible, available, and has any reasonable chance of success. (Case in point: there may not be much point in offering an operation to a 97-year-old for brain cancer, if he/she would almost certainly fail to survive the general anaesthesia for the operation, much less the operation itself. No one here (on the pro-life side, anyway) is saying anything about “ration the care, since it costs too much”.
Third: we’re not talking about denying emergency care to anyone (illegal alien or otherwise), if they happen to be here at the moment. We’re talking about denying them illegal entrance to our country. Remember?
Are you somehow under the impression that, if someone is pro-life, they must also give up all efforts toward secure borders?
I didn’t think your first of two points was really worth replying to quite frankly – unless my assumption is wrong – I’ve assumed this whole time that those in favor of repealing the 14th amendment would like to send people back to where they came from.
First: nowhere did I say that I was in favour of repealing the 14th amendment; I think it’d be colossally stupid, quite frankly (for reasons that Ken and others have discussed: it’s unnecessary, since border security and immigration issues can be handled outside of Constitutional amendments (the laws are already on the books, for Heaven’s sake!); it’d be counterproductive, since the 14th Amendment seems to be a key support of pro-life principles in USA case law; and it’d be dangerous, since the current “regime” certainly can’t be trusted with Constitutional tinkering.
Second: remember what you wrote?
[EGV]
I think an honest Christian can make the case that a wealthy nation such as ours shouldn’t turn away oppressed people of the world – the big question would be what qualifies as “oppressed”.
[Paladin]
There are more questions and concerns than that. First: who says that we’re turning them away? Is “requiring proper immigration procedures” now “tunring people away”, by definition? I don’t think so, and I don’t see why you (or anyone else) would.
So… you ask why we’re “turning people away” (note: you hadn’t yet said a word about “sending people back where they came from”), and I replied that we’re NOT “turning people away” in any general sense–we’re requiring that, before they come in, they follow the legal procedures set up for that purpose. If you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, we’re temporarily “turning away” anyone trying to enter illegally; just as we’d temporarily “turn away” someone who came into a Macy’s wearing nothing but boxers. And that’s what you call “not worthy of being answered”?
So I think I agree with you if you’re talking about the current situation – that is a question – what is oppressed and what is turning away. I’ve been talking about what I think the desired situation is for those who want to repeal, and that is putting people on an airplane and sending them back to where they came from.
Oy. You do have a habit of making comments which require multiple-part answers…
1) For those who are ALREADY here illegally, yes: deportation is not only legally allowed, but it’s legally required (despite those who illicitly neglect the enforcement of the law).
2) Even if the 14th amendment were repealed, I really don’t know if anyone could make it retroactive (i.e. deport all people who were previous “anchor babies”); it’d still be a case of BARRING entry to illegal immigrants (regardless of parentage) and deporting those who were otherwise in the country illegally. (Again: I think such a repeal would be sheer idiocy.)
3) You do realize that deportation is TEMPORARY, don’t you? If someone is deported for illegal immigration, that hardly stops them from going through the proper channels and trying to “do it the right way, this time”.
Paladin –
Yikes – do you have a family? I get about 20 minutes a day to respond to these, so it might take me a week!
I think the 14th Amendment argument can be put to bed – we both agree that repealing it would be stupid. I misunderstood part of what you said earlier – I agree that we need to tighten borders and start enforcing laws – and had said most of what I said thinking you supported the repeal.
On the financial part and morality – what I was addressing generally – an observance – was that we can’t expand health care to the millions of uninsured because of the cost. On the flip side, when the government even talks about talking to old people about end of life options (not physician assisted suicide – but understanding if a person wishes to be on life support at the end of their life) – the right flips out – or when the government talks about driving best practices, talks of rationing start flying. So it’s a huge money drain to insure more people, but trying to find savings is immoral?
Same thing with Gates and military spending – guy looks into fiscal responsibility within the military, and people start the freak out.
Now, my disclaimer: I am talking generally, I don’t know your positions well enough to know what you do and don’t believe on this – so if you want to respond is your business. There is conflicts like this on the left as well – I’m not saying they are immune to this.
Hm. We might be getting close to a meeting of the minds on this, after all! (Will wonders never cease…!)
(And yes, BTW: I have a family! :) These “mega-bursts” aren’t going to be very common; but fear not: I type rather quickly–to which my many typos and formatting glitches testify–and I’ll not take up undue time on this end!)
I understand that you’re attempting to point out the apparent inconsistency between the view of “Don’t allow illegal immigration, because it’ll cost too much”, and “Don’t ration health services, because lives are more important than money.” But I don’t hold the view that illegal immigrants should be denied emergency medical care, on the basis of cost (or on any basis whatsoever). I do hold the view that such people should have been prevented from coming into the country illegally in the first place. They should have gone through the proper channels, which would have allowed us to ascertain any security risk, criminal background (if any), and other important preliminary matters. I also worry about the “borderless” mentality which thinks that the entire world is our immediate and personal problem (in any way other than a general, macroscopic way which would be proper to international relations). I do not, for example, think that we are obliged to supply health care for every one of the 6 billion (or so) people on earth, nor could we. Even if someone were to insist that the USA has an obligation to serve all the health care, welfare, etc., “needs” of every citizen of Mexico, I’d flatly disagree; that responsibility falls to the Mexican government… which is supposed to be a governing body, and not merely a construct on paper.
I’ll admit this much, though: there is an extent to which I’m genuinely undecided, regarding the cost-to-benefit equation. If, for example, USA citizens suddenly produced an extra 5 million babies (within stable homes, complete with lawfully and stably married mother and father, some reasonable set-up for income, etc.), I’d think that was wonderful (and long overdue), which makes me wonder how much I can (in good conscience) push the “gee, I hope 5 million immigrants aren’t granted amnesty!”. That’s assuming, of course, that national security and public safety concerns were already met (which is not the case, in the illegal immigration that we have so far).