The partial-birth abortion of America’s churches
by Tom Ambrose, exclusive to JillStanek.com
Tom is the former commentary editor for WorldNetDaily.com (who gave Jill her start there!) and a former US correspondent for the Singapore-based Business Times. Additionally, he has written for NewsWithViews.com and other publications, and has been a guest on various radio programs.
After Jill wrote about Todd Bullis’ encounters at First Assembly of God Church in Ventura, CA, I made the effort to contact the church office to try to understand their perspective.
In particular, I wasn’t entirely sure I agreed with Todd’s actions, and I also wanted to believe the best about the people of the church, i.e., that they were telling the truth and really were helping the pro-life cause….
I also wanted to make sure that pro-lifers were not acting irresponsibly as the Dark Side already makes up enough garbage about us as it is without us handing them ammunition.
A series of telephone calls and emails ensued. I assured the church that if they were truly supporting pro-life causes in any meaningful way, I would strongly take issue with Todd’s activities publicly. I, in turn, was told that the church was being unfairly targeted and smeared, that it spends “thousands” on 38 outside ministries that included “the pro-life movement.”
So I asked for documentation – several times. In particular, I wanted to know what pro-life organizations and causes they had supported in recent years, what amounts they had spent, and contact information so I could verify what they were telling me.
At one point, it sounded like they were preparing to provide me with information to back up their claims, but then yesterday I was abruptly told that no information would be forthcoming.
I was also informed, in what appeared to me to be gossip to discredit and smear Todd, about a letter from Todd’s brother “Mikel” allegedly “condemning his [Todd’s] actions.” Since I never saw the letter, I have no idea what it actually said or if it is even real, not that it is relevant to the issue of documentation in the first place. [JLS note: This was shameful gossip, pure and simple, an effort to smear Todd while trying to make themselves look better.]
I would think it would be a simple matter to identify the pro-life organizations and causes the church claims to have sponsored. Indeed, if they really had been supporting pro-life causes, I believe they would have been waving the evidence around for all to see. Didn’t happen.
At this point, the written and video record also shows that an out-of-control member of their church – a police officer, no less – sprayed Todd in the face with vinegar (an acid) and hosed down Todd in violation of the law. Additionally, their assistant pastor’s reported action of rudely interrupting a conversation and trying to prevent one of their members from talking with Todd and his group, while not as severe as the preceding offense, certainly does not bring credit upon their congregation.
Based on all of that and their recent communications with me, it appears their claims of supporting pro-life causes are baseless, which is pretty much what I understand Todd to have been saying all along.
Moreover, at this point, my impression is that Todd is acting responsibly in calling the church to repentance and that if the people of this church don’t want their children to see the images of aborted – murdered – babies, they should put blindfolds on their children because that is effectively what the leadership of the church appears to have been doing with the entire church all along.
While there are many issues conservatives are tackling in our culture – gun control, homeschooling, Supreme Court activist judges, terrorism, etc. ad nauseum – there are really only 5 politically oriented issues that I can quickly think of that are addressed in Scripture, i.e., that pertain specifically to Christians: homosexuality, murder (which includes abortion, obviously), helping those in need who cannot help themselves (which again includes unborn babies), blessing Israel, and the freedom to express our faith (e.g., prayer and Scripture in public schools).
We do not, for example, find gun control identified in Scripture. And as important as those other issues are, as Christians we need to address those 5 specific issues as a matter of obedience to Scripture, and to care for our children and nation.
In my opinion, the burden is on the leaders of America’s churches to lead their people in a manner consistent with Scripture. Leaders who hide from this responsibility should be identified as walking in disobedience to God’s Word.
Scripture informs us that faith without works is dead. Sadly, it appears that many of America’s churches are, too. With the thousands of churches in our nation that ask for help in their offering plates every Sunday, imagine the impact they could have if they each would generously provide support for organizations like CareNet or Heartbeat International on a monthly basis, and care for an unwed mother every year.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Prov 24:11-12 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? KJV
Prov 24:11-12 Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don’t stand back and let them die. Don’t try to disclaim responsibility by saying you didn’t know about it. For God, who knows all hearts, knows yours, and he knows you knew! And he will reward everyone according to his deeds. TLB
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [has arrived] for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will [be] the end of those who do not respect or believe or obey the good news (the Gospel) of God? AMP
yor bro ken
You guys have no idea how great it is to feel the support I get from you all.
I expect great things from the Church. I really believe it is time for the Church to Repent and go back to its first love and be obedient.
The Church has the Power to end the legal killing of our kids.
Thank you so much.
This article puts it all in perspective. The Church unfortunately has become like a Rotary Club.
“Scripture informs us that faith without works is dead. Sadly, it appears that many of America’s churches are, too. With the thousands of churches in our nation that ask for help in their offering plates every Sunday, imagine the impact they could have if they each would generously provide support for organizations like CareNet or Heartbeat International on a monthly basis, and care for an unwed mother every year.”
Does it ever occur to you possibly that the reason why many churches you complained about don’t do the things you demand they do is because God lead them to do other forms of outreaches and do other things to make a difference? Or consider that you might be in spreading thin those churches that you are hindering God’s work in them?
Yes, we as Christians need to as citizens of this country speak out against injustices. But to say churches are bind to do what you tell them is nothing sort of legalism that Christ and the apostles condemned.
The church is bind to do what Christ and His apostles tel them to: preach the gospel, administer the sacraments, faith, repentance, striving to do good works, etc. I do not find one example of the sorts of activism you demand the churches do, in regards to Christ and the apostles. Abortions, infanticides, etc., took place back then, too!
Yes, faith without works is dead. But you don’t know if those churches do good works. They just don’t centered their focus on the works you want them to do. That’s the difference you miss.
It is one thing if those churches were promoting abortions, right to abortions, promoting all sorts of sexual sins, etc., etc. Then the church surely does need to repent.
But to not do the work you do is simply not proof it needs repentance. It could be very well proof it does work to further God’s kingdom in other ways and ministering to people in other ways, as called by God.
The attitude display by some here towards churches that don’t do what you want them to do is indefensible, and simply not of God. Just arrogance towards fellow believers, and acting in the very rudeness you complained about that one church, its pastor, and its member (who by the way I do believe deserved to be jailed).
“So I asked for documentation – several times. In particular, I wanted to know what pro-life organizations and causes they had supported in recent years, what amounts they had spent, and contact information so I could verify what they were telling me.”
You are dead wrong and being very heavy-handed here.
I don’t know the church and don’t know what it does or does not do.
But it is not accountable to you for what its finances are. It is accountable to its members, and if it belongs to a denom, accountable to those of its synod, convention, or whatever.
Acting in a tyrannical and dictatorial manner and telling churches they need to tell you what funds they spend on, etc., involve gross violations of privacy of those churches and its members.
It is wrong.
It is wrong when IRS try to shut down churches’ right to speak on moral issues.
“While there are many issues conservatives are tackling in our culture – gun control, homeschooling, Supreme Court activist judges, terrorism, etc. ad nauseum – there are really only 5 politically oriented issues that I can quickly think of that are addressed in Scripture, i.e., that pertain specifically to Christians: homosexuality, murder (which includes abortion, obviously), helping those in need who cannot help themselves (which again includes unborn babies), blessing Israel, and the freedom to express our faith (e.g., prayer and Scripture in public schools).”
Not all Christian conservatives agree with your list fully there. For example, the late D James Kennedy would not have agreed with your list that our stand with God depends on support for Israel, rather than treat it as any other nation, that God desires to save and see repent.
Brother Punisher.
If we were talking about principle that one church has a calling and another Church has a different calling I would say yes you may be right but think of it this way.
If some one is killing kids right out side of your church should that church say “Our Calling is feeding the poor, our calling is not to invite those kids in and save them from sure death.”
You say you cant find one place for activism in the Bible but here is were I feel you error in your thought process. When you read the Bible or study the Bible you have to look at the text, the context and the whole text. Look at what God did when people sacrificed their children. Jeremiah 7 is a good example and there are many more where God sent someone to speak up.
Dear Punisher are you active in the pro life movement? What about your Church?
I do not wish to be disrespectful but why do you protest so much against one man who stands up and exhorts the Church. I am not doing it out of hate but love. I wish you and I could spend some time together.
Most churches are set up as 501C3 organizations that receive favorable tax treatment as a result of complying with certain IRS requirements. As such, contrary to Punisher’s assertion, they are publicly accountable.
Additionally, I did not demand or dictate anything. I was, in fact, willing to defend them and told them so. But it would have been irresponsible to do so without evidence — evidence that should have been easy to obtain and document. Punisher can claim he’s a cheeseburger, but that doesn’t make it any more true than this church making unsubstantiated claims about being pro-life.
The totality of their actions to date, by any reasonable and objective observer, suggests that they are totally blowing smoke on their claim to support the pro-life movement.
Tom Ambrose
Dear Punisher
It sounded to me when I read his letter that Tom Ambrose was on the churches side and was looking to bring light to the issue. He did not just jump on the ban wagon and say Yes Todd Go get them. He wanted to do his due diligence (something I did by the way).
I have had a very public spot light put on me and Tom was caring for the Church looking out for it. All of us love the church it is the bride of Christ.
It would be a simple matter for First Assemble of God to show what it has done in the local Pro Life movement and shame me but I could not.
Tom Ambrose did not call me, he was not looking after my interest but Gods interest and spent the time and effort to get the truth.
Tom has done nothing wrong and everything right. All things come to light and nothing hidden will be hidden for long.
I promise you that all this stuff will bring Glory to God and will build the Church not tear it down.
D James Kennedy’s support for replacement theology was in deep error. Romans 11 addresses Israel as the olive tree we Gentiles are grafted into and even a cursory knowledge of eschatology shows how God’s plan for His Chosen People will come to fruition. Speaking of Jerusalem, the prophet Zechariah said, For this is what the Lord Almighty says: “After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you—for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye I will surely raise my hand against them–Zechariah 2:8,9.
Psalm 122:6 urges us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. In Genesis 12:3 God promises Abraham that He will bless those who bless his seed, and curse those who curse Abraham’s seed.
Thanks Tom:
Your eloquence is extreme. This is an excellent article and reveals my heart totally. I learned what you just learned about what is going on in the American Church over the last 4 years when I campaigned for a completely pro-life governor and found that the church did not want to get involved in the abortion (couched in political terms) issue. I learned of the church’s self-deception in this area and the root causes being the 501c3 legislation. The muzle must be taken off the pulpit or the Church must disobey this law or remove itslef from its grasp and control.
THE CHURCH NEED NOT BE AFRAID OF CONFRONTING THIS ISSUE HEAD ON. TO DO SO WOULD BRING GREAT REPENTANCE, HEALING AND REVIVAL.
I am convinced that if the Church admits and repents of its sin regarding abortion this country will be renewed beyond our wildest dreams. I love the church and I want to see none lost.
Let’s remember that we don’t want to destroy our brothers and sisters in Christ, we just want to warn them that of all the self-deception that is going on can lead to apostasy.
A study of the Book of Hebrews, especially Chapter 12 is a very stern warning to believers to not fall away. It’s very easily to think we are right with God when in fact we are self-deceived.
I had a long talk wit Todd yesterday and we both agreed at how we all, individually need to repent. I was in tears this morning at the list of sins that I am guilty of.
Let’s try to use this as a base for uniting.
I know our first exchange was a bit rough when Todd’s article first came out. I have a way of going for the jugular sometimes and this is just not Christlike. Please forgive me. Please respond to my FB friend request.
God Bless and I really hope that this has had the effect of a light going on in the Church.
Praise HIM!
I forgive you, Phil.
Thanks Tom….peace to you.
Todd, our Lord just gave me a scripture for you as I believe it sums up everything you have been called to do. In this verse, I believe God is appealing to those that believe in Him and not to unbelievers:
“Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?
(Proverbs 24:11-12)”
The church must be woken up. THIS IS THE SOLUTION TO END LEGALIZED ABORTION.
Punisher:
I think you would have had a problem with Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., etc., etc.
“Jeremiah 7:30-34 (New International Version)
The Valley of Slaughter
30 The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.”
In view of Hebrews Chapter 11 and 12, because the church has had an even fuller and greater revelation of Himself via the person of Christ and His thoughts towards children, the Church will be held to an even more severe judgment than is described in Jeremiah 7 if we do not repent.
In love I beg the Church to repent of its apathy and inaction towards abortion.
Amen Amen.
I have been praying for you Xalisae and wondered if you were around tonight on the site? I hope you got in touch with someone. :)
Hi Todd,
You are prayed for as well and you have given me much to ponder in my own little corner of the world. Be strong for such a time as this.
Take heart church, there is a way out of our sin. God has promised this. Do not fear.
ADF launches legal effort to protect churches from government intrusion
Church Project seeks to protect, promote legal rights of churches
Wednesday, April 14, 2010
LEAWOOD, Kan. — Wednesday, the Alliance Defense Fund officially launched its Church Project, a new legal effort to protect churches from excessive and unconstitutional government intrusion prohibited by the First Amendment.
“Pastors and churches shouldn’t live in fear of being punished or penalized by the government. That’s exactly why the Constitution protects religious freedom,” said ADF Senior Counsel Kevin Theriot, who heads the Church Project. “Even erosions of religious liberty that seem small threaten the Church’s ability to be the Church. Historically, the Church has been the moral and cultural conscience of the nation. Every day the Church is intimidated into silence on issues like life, liberty, marriage, and the family is another day the cultural erosion continues unchecked.”
Theriot explained that the Constitution protects churches and their independence from undue government interference regarding internal church affairs, freely speaking from the pulpit, intimidation and harassment, equal access, land use, state regulatory schemes, and access to government programs. The ADF Pulpit Initiative, which launched in 2008, has been integrated into the ADF Church Project as one part of the broader effort.
“The Church Project expands upon and focuses the ongoing efforts of ADF in all of these areas,” Theriot explained. “These threats are no less real for being outside the observation, imagination, and experience of many American congregations.”
The ADF Church Project will…
••Help alert and educate pastors and ministry leaders nationwide about the powerful cultural and legal forces moving aggressively to limit religious freedom in America.
•Equip these leaders with the legal information, resources, and support they need to successfully defend that freedom in their own community.
•Help ensure that churches can remain free to govern themselves, enjoy access to public funds and facilities on equal terms with non-religious groups, teach and live out the full counsel of Scripture, follow their doctrine and teachings with regard to employment and other practices, and boldly proclaim the Gospel.
To learn more about the Church Project, visit http://www.speakupmovement.org/church.
ADF is a legal alliance of Christian attorneys and like-minded organizations defending the right of people to freely live out their faith. Launched in 1994, ADF employs a unique combination of strategy, training, funding, and litigation to protect and preserve religious liberty, the sanctity of life, marriage, and the family.
http://www.adfmedia.org | twitter.com/adfmedia
Second Carla about Xalisae.
“D James Kennedy’s support for replacement theology was in deep error.”
The term “replacement theology” is a perjorative term thrown around by dispies at everyone that don’t agree with their strict distinction between church and spiritual Israel. And it misrepresents the beliefs of others to the core.
And usually pretend many of those who holds to what they deem “replacement theology” don’t hold to God’s plan is still there for the Jews (see Calvin, Rutherford, etc.).
“In Genesis 12:3 God promises Abraham that He will bless those who bless his seed, and curse those who curse Abraham’s seed.”
Sorry, but Paul saw it differently. He quoted that passage in Galatians 3 and said God foresaw that the gentiles would believe when He preached the gospel in Genesis 12:3, and Paul went on to say Christ was the seed of Abraham, and that we by being believers are, too, seed of Abraham, according to the promise. By your logic, Paul was a “replacement theologian.”
I spoke with xalisae. I will say nothing more than she could use prayers for wisdom and guidance.
“I think you would have had a problem with Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., etc., etc.”
No, you would have a problem with Christ and His apostles.
Let me educate you on a little history of their day. IN their day, in Roman times, BOTH abortion AND infanticide existed AFTER birth. Slavery in PAGAN form existed and was legal (without benefits of God’s law to restrain the masters). Gladiators as form of sports, where fighting to the death took place, also existed. There were many, many social injustices more than just abortion.
Yet, Christ and His apostles NOT ONCE commanded the church to have as its mission to be social activists against these ills. Yes, those ills were sins against God.
Instead, they focused on real change: through gospel and sacrament. That’s how people come to Christ. That’s how real change occurred. That’s how real change took place where the empire itself became Christianized after centuries of persecutions against Christians. And that’s how things like gladiator games got banned. That’s how protection of the unborn and born infants alike began to take place. Real change occurs when the church does it work: preach the gospel and let God do the work in people’s hearts to bring them to Christ.
Not one time did Christ and His apostles called for the church to have as its mission social activism.
So do folks here think they know better than our God Incarnate and His disciples what the purpose of the church body is? They sure are acting like it when they demand a church here and church there go along with their form of social activism despite the fact that it is never commanded by Christ and His apostles.
That was is called legalism. It is binding others to burdens nowhere commanded by the head and cornerstone of the church, Christ, and nowhere commanded by the apostles, who were the foundation of the church.
Like I said before, I have nothing against social activism. I stand for prolife as anybody here. I am against churches that outright promote abortion, gay marriage, etc.
But to condemn churches for not doing something never commanded by those who founded the church, starting with Christ, is outright wrong.
The passage you cite to me does not even say or command a church or any body of God to start being social activists.
Context please.
It was condemning the nation of Israel, which was a theocracy, under the old covenant, for turning its back on God and falling into idolatry.
If a church is to be condemned like some here are doing for failing to do enough social activism in your eyes to fight against social injustices that you wish it would do, then how much more should you condemned Christ and His apostles for not telling the churches to do what you are saying all churches have to do!
Like I said, I am not against prolifers. I am not against conservative Christian values.
It is because I LOVE both causes, I hate to see this going on since it can in THE LONG RUN undermine both, when people see us acting like bullies. And yes, doing this to a church comes off as bullying to me.
If a diehard Christian paleo-conservative prolifer like me can see that, what do you think others will see, especially those whose hearts and minds you are trying to change?
We are activists because we feel God’s conviction to do so in these areas. But it is NOT our place to tell others in other churches what God’s calling for them is in regards to His purpose for those churches (as long as those churches are not watering down the truth or promoting sin).
“It would be a simple matter for First Assemble of God to show what it has done in the local Pro Life movement and shame me but I could not.”
How do you know? Maybe it could, but it does not have the desire to pander to your demands.
Guess what? If I am a pastor of a church made with many prolifers and given I am strongly prolifer, I would have done the same exact thing as that church did, and not give up the records to you either, even if the records show the highest rate of support for all prolifer causes more than anyone else. Know why? I would have seen it as wasting my time responding to people I see as causing problems and being a nuisance. A pastor’s responsibility is to the church body he is put in to look after.
Not to outsiders who think they can boss the church around and demand it do this or that or prove itself good enough for outsiders. I would have seen it as juvenile behaviour.
I don’t blame the church one bit for refusing to give the records. Not its responsibility. Nor wise either to do so in my view to give things that could be considered confidential.
Pull this kind of stunt off in the early church, even when it was persecuted church, and no matter how much you think your cause is worthy, you would have been branded a schismatic at best.
Thank You, Elisabeth. Please let her know we’re praying for her. :)
“Moreover, at this point, my impression is that Todd is acting responsibly in calling the church to repentance and that if the people of this church don’t want their children to see the images of aborted – murdered – babies, they should put blindfolds on their children because that is effectively what the leadership of the church appears to have been doing with the entire church all along.”
Time and place for everything. I would have been upset, too, if my children (don’t have any) have been exposed to that. Yes, I don’t mind being the one to tell them about it and even showing them, but it is not place of others to force feed those images to children of others.
If it was doing it to those who are considering abortions, then fine, I agree, it needs to be done.
But this crosses many lines.
I really really really like Xalisae. It concerns me that someone may have hurt her.
Lord, may Your Spirit which is our Comforter, envelope Xalisae with your Love and Your Peace which passes all understanding. May she receive Your Mind, Your thoughts concerning the situation she is in. Most of all, I pray that she will have good friends that will help her through this time and that she will come to know You, the Best Friend any of us could ever have.
Bless her tonight, Lord, in Your Mighty Name I pray.
we are praying for you Xalisae.
Dear Punisher
I am not condemning the Church far from it.
I feel that the you would excuse those who passed by the road and did not help the man dieing just because that was not his calling. I understand your argument but I don’t agree we as the church should be indifferent as the Churches are in my home town.
Punisher,
“Me thinks thou dost protesteth too much.”
If one man standing outside an ‘edifica iglesia’/church building on Sunday morning is seen as a threat to ‘church’ or THE CHURCH, then the ‘gates of hell’ have nothing to fear.
Even if Todd were ‘wrong’, his presence outside the religious edifice would provide some teachable moments.
The reaction from the church administration reveals a lack of maturity on their part.
The fly is in their ointment.
What do they believe Jesus would do in this circumstance?
yor bro ken
Punisher,
You are ignorant and blind.
You epitomize everything that is wrong with the apostate church in America today.
You are exactly like the Pharisees in Christ’s day.
I pray God shows you the error of your heart and that you will join the rest of us in repenting from our wicked ways that Christ may heal our land.
My above post is in honor of our precious X-Girl who is never one to mince words!
“I feel that the you would excuse those who passed by the road and did not help the man dieing just because that was not his calling.”
And statements like that prove why your credibility is so bad to so many conservative Christians, and yes, there are plenty appalled by how you are acting. And your words show that, too.
If I am like what you described, I would not have taken up the pro-life cause. Or at times giving money to the poor even though half the time I am broke.
No, you feel the need to trash everyone who don’t walk the calling you are in.
It is form of legalism ane elitism.
It may be for a good cause, saving the unborn, but legalism and heresy are legalism and heresy. Both are destructive themselves but in different ways than murder.
In the case of the example you give Christ did speak about being good samaritans so your argument don’t wash.
It is just a juvenile attempt at attacking my character.
“I understand your argument but I don’t agree we as the church should be indifferent as the Churches are in my home town.”
Did not say the churches should be indifferent. Proves you did not understand my arguments at all.
Not your or my place to play God and judge hearts and decide which churches are indifferent and which are not.
Just because churches are not out there front and center being activists does not mean through its teachings of God’s love, grace, justice, wrath, etc., etc., that as result many Christians go out to fight for rights of others.
You are so wrong to make these kinds of judgments on others.
You are not an apostle. Nor prophet. You are putting yourself over others. And you are on dangeorous spiritual grounds to do so.
There is a word for that in early church: schismatic.
There are many different issues churches are doing. Abortion may be the biggest injustices. But churches have other things to do to further God’s work as well. You are binding churches under commands you made for them, that Christ and His apostles never made for the church.
How about those churches you jugged judge you for not doing enough in other areas?
Churches are made of humans and the resources are FINITE, especially in this economy.
If all the churches do what you want them to do, they could be failing to help others out in many other areas, because they no longer have the resources? And those who suffer as result would have you to blame for that. Think about it.
“You are ignorant and blind.”
Compliment coming from you who put earthly changes before the gospel.
“You epitomize everything that is wrong with the apostate church in America today.”
You would not know orthodox Christianity if iy bit in the rear.
Your form of church is no different from SOCIAL GOSPELISM. So rich you should accused me of having form of apostate Christianity, when you are blatantly into your own kind of it!
By your logic, the whole church early on was apostate for putting the gospel preaching first and reaching out to others before all things, which by the way LED to the kinds of changes you want.
Can’t have changes in this land without the gospel prevailing over hearts and minds. Sorry, but trying to get the church to fight abortion but not putting gospel before it is asking the church to APOSTASIZE.
“You are exactly like the Pharisees in Christ’s day.”
Ironic and rich.
Funny, since you and a few others are the ones making up commands for what all churches need to do then condemn them for failing to live up to those commands on how they have to act and so on.
Your actions are precisely Pharasaic!
I am the one calling for churches to do it Christ’s way and apostolic way. You are for doing it your own man-made rules way, and you have enough hypocritical nerves to throw ignorant and blind and Pharisee at me?
“I pray God shows you the error of your heart and that you will join the rest of us in repenting from our wicked ways that Christ may heal our land.”
And I pray that you get over your self-righteous and pompous acts that are blatantly guilty of what you accused me of.
Sorry, but for one who calls me blind and ignorant, you apparently don’t know I am STRONGLY PRO-LIFER and that I do see it as sin against God because it is MURDER.
So I guess you consider SLANDER to be ok as long as it promotes your cause right?
Cause you are bearing false witness accusing me of not praying for this country and asking God to heal this land and change hearts and minds in regards to social injustices of abortion.
Me and others like me have done PLENTY OF THAT AND WILL CONTNUE TO DO SO.
Maybe you NEED TO PRAY FOR YOURSELF REPENTING OF YOUR WICKED WAYS THROWING OUT SLANDERS AND FALSE WITNESSING against fellow Christians.
Gee, with all these angry epithets being hurled by Punisher and Ed, I think I may be experiencing a Rodney King moment … I’m trying to contain it … LOL … oh, no, here it comes!
“Can we all get along?”
Ahhhhh … OK, I feel better now …
“Gee, with all these angry epithets being hurled by Punisher and Ed, I think I may be experiencing a Rodney King moment … I’m trying to contain it … LOL … oh, no, here it comes!”
You are right- the angry epithets, regardless of who started it, was wrong. And I apologize to other Christians on the board scandalized by this exchange, as well as say to non-Christians, that we are not acting like Christians.
And that it shows how flawed and sinful we still all are and shows how much we need a Saviour- our God Incarnate who came to us with His word of salvation to bring us to Himself, taking away our sins, reconciling us to God the Father, being the atoning sacrifice, that the Father’s wrath against us for our sins (which are many) may be appeased. All that because of God’s love for us when we were still His enemies and deserving of His wrath against us.
lol nice Tom.
Lets just all do what God has called us to do. I thank Punisher for his effort. Makes me think. If any man can talk me out of what I am doing than give me a call i am up for it. I would rather take up golf. Until than I am going to keep doing what God is telling me to do. I have seen his hand in it so many times already. Each day that passes I see Gods spirit working in the hearts and minds of men.
Just so you know I did not mean to upset you Punisher. I am not mad or upset with you.
I am thankful for your words and they help me to keep seeking God in all of this.
I do know this that either Punisher is wrong or I am wrong.
I pray that God clears this up for the one that is wrong.
Ok, I’ve been trying to figure out something from this lively discussion here.
If Todd is going to the *church*, then haven’t they already heard the Gospel? It appears that Todd isn’t trying to convert the lost, but to rally God’s people to actively do something against this grave inhumanity against the innocents (you know, urging them to “rescue those who are being led away to death?”).
If the church were making disciples as it should, would those in the church have the same divorce and abortion rates as those outside it? I guess I’m wondering why there is infighting over this.
Matthew 28:19 states: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
If the church is not teaching Christ’s disciples to obey His commands (such as “Thou shalt not murder”), then something is wrong.
Acts 15:20 (KJV) states: “But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.” This was for Gentile believers. Verses that correlate to this deal with pollutions of idols such as in Psalm 106:37-39 (They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.). Verses on sexual immorality are extensive as well, and I won’t list them here now.
My point is, abortion is the result of sexual immorality and idolatry, and it’s happening in the church. Should the church not repent of this?
With all due respect, Punisher, I would like to express my thoughts on a few of your comments:
“I don’t blame the church one bit for refusing to give the records. Not its responsibility. Nor wise either to do so in my view to give things that could be considered confidential.”
Do you feel the same way about the Catholic hierachy protecting their records? I realize the topics are different but both subject matters (abortion and child molestation) should be considered immoral to all Christians but only one of them is illegal. I am thankful the survivors of sexual abuse spoke out in order that this terrible issue be brought to light in the Catholic church. Are these people to be condemned for speaking the Truth and speaking against the actions/lack of actions of church leaders? I thank them for doing what I’m sure has been so difficult in so many ways but certainly needed to be dealt with.
“If it was doing it to those who are considering abortions, then fine, I agree, it needs to be done.”
If it is true that 1/3 of women are aborting isn’t it a strong possibility that many of the mothers and fathers of unborn children who are being aborted are Christians? Do you believe that women who abort are not members of Christian churches? Do you think that men who are the father of these beautiful unborn children are not members of churches?
“Time and place for everything.” Who decides the time and place? Abortion has been legalized more than many people have been alive. You may be one of them. Soon, all of us who remember a time before legalized abortion will no longer be around to talk about what truly happened and how society has changed. The disrespect of sexuality and life in general has so greatly diminished since abortion has been legalized. It’s only common sense that it would (the problem with common sense is that it is no longer common). I work with teenagers and I absolutely cannot believe how things have changed in the 25 years since I’ve been out of high school. It is truly heartbreaking. Maybe you wouldn’t be as appalled regarding the stories I’ve heard from teens. Things they seriously do not see as problems or sin. However, many parents no longer see a problem because they are already desensitized since abortion has been legal their whole lives.
I firmly believe Now is the time and Everywhere is the place. Christian churches can stop this Holocaust.
My thoughts and prayers are with you all, especially Anna and Xalisae.
I have been away/busy. did I miss something with x?
Hey, I love all you guys.
We can disagree and still be united in Christ.
Peace to all of you.
“Not your or my place to play God and judge hearts and decide which churches are indifferent and which are not.” Posted by: Punisher at April 14, 2010 10:01 PM
“Better just to warn and steer believers away from those churches.” Posted by: Punisher at April 14, 2010 10:34 PM (Prolife activists revisit police hoser’s church thread)
I pray to stay simple and humble and I am far from knowing my Bible inside/out. I realize that I am the greatest of all sinners, however, these two statements made by Punisher seem to be in opposition to each other.
But maybe I am missing something? It’s been known to happen a time or two :)
“Do you feel the same way about the Catholic hierachy protecting their records? I realize the topics are different but both subject matters (abortion and child molestation) should be considered immoral to all Christians but only one of them is illegal.”
There is a difference. Child molestation involves actual crime being committed. The records we speak of here involves what the church does with the money it gets from its members through offerings, which may or may not be for worthy causes.
Apples and oranges. It is not my business what some other church I don’t belong to does with it. It is between God, the members of that church, and the leadership of that church, unless they do something that involves violating rights of others.
“I firmly believe Now is the time and Everywhere is the place. Christian churches can stop this Holocaust.”
And the reason why we have so many prolifers now and are winning in numbers is because largely of churches.
The very churches some folks would condemn for not giving money from their coffers to prolife organizations or doing what certain folks demand they do. But their stances and teachings to lead people to Christ and desire to serve Him and fellow man, as well as its stances on moral issues like this, do lead many Christians to donate time, money, etc., to this cause.
“If it is true that 1/3 of women are aborting isn’t it a strong possibility that many of the mothers and fathers of unborn children who are being aborted are Christians? Do you believe that women who abort are not members of Christian churches? Do you think that men who are the father of these beautiful unborn children are not members of churches?”
Yes, it is true Christians can and do fall into sins (I do hold to one can walk away from salvation).
But that does not mean we should be going church to church doing this kind of stuff. After all liberal churches can turn around and do same to us.
Time and place.
If the word of God is preached in the churches it has much more powerful effect than forcefeeding pictures of the unborn to those folks in the churches, which will simply turn off folks. Being in your face at folks, many of who may otherwise be on your side, is not in this case a good idea.
These kinds of actions and tactics, that come off to many (including prolifers) as bullying a church, don’t win hearts at all.
And it sure to me is not good witness at all.
God’s word is a double-edged sword, remember?
What is more powerful to change hearts and minds? God’s word and sacrament? Or secular means you are advocating like showing pictures of dead babies and making folks from other churches see them?
“Who decides the time and place?”
God the Son Incarnate and His apostles.
They gave us instructions on how the church is to be run.
Being disruptive to a church gathering to honor Christ to promote a cause you believe is moral is not one of these instructions.
“I pray to stay simple and humble and I am far from knowing my Bible inside/out. I realize that I am the greatest of all sinners, however, these two statements made by Punisher seem to be in opposition to each other.”
They aren’t. The first statement involves me saying I can’t judge hearts of those churches and its members if they do not do the things folks here demand they do to help the prolife cause. That’s not enough for me to go on.
But we can judge words, if both run contrary to God’s word. Like false doctrines. False teachers.
Todd:
You might want to look into this:
http://www.thecall.com/Groups/1000059521/TheCall/ezekiel2230/College_Tour/College_Tour.aspx
Lou is a huge pro-life guy.
Let me know and maybe I’ll meet up with you at one of these events in California.
I met Lou when I was campaigning with Len Munsil.
Have you seen this? The Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3722098690652929884#
Mr. Ambrose appears to come to the correct conclusion by the time he reaches the end of his post but even if this church were sending some money to a crisis pregnancy center periodically, they would be no less obligate to work to stop the killing in their own fellowship, provide real ministry to those in their own fellowship who have been wounded by abortion and then, after they have dealt with the abortion sins of their own members, they would be ready to reach out and fight this scourge in their community. That all starts with the duty to forge a consensus as to whether the unborn child is developmentally entitled to rights of personhood (is he our “neighbor” at conception or not till birth?) and whether abortion is child sacrifice of the horrific sort against God rages throughout the Old Testament. Those determinations can only be made when the congregation is shown what abortion is and does and a church which is covering up the horror of abortion from the pulpit forces people like Todd to expose that horror for them from the sidewalk. And as for children seeing Todd’s abortion pictures, he posts parental warning signs out in all directions approaching the church. Parents whose kids see these pictures are parents who defied warnings which are impossible to miss. We are way past the time when we can afford to give pastors a veto over whether Christians are going to be awakened to the seriousness of the genocide which has engulfed our country and even the Body of Christ. We can’t win this battle without Christians and we will no longer allow pastors to block our access to them.
I think Gregg makes a good point. I certainly do not intend that churches should not participate in additional ways to help the unborn and others who are victimized by the siren song of a quick, easy fix for their inconvenient babies. Rather, I think what I proposed above represents a meaningful first step that many churches could take immediately if they had the will to do so.
I think it should be pointed out, however, that many churches are very small and truly lack the budgets for very much of anything. For example, I live in a rural area of New England where some of the churches here have maybe a dozen people, and not all of those attend each Sunday. In such cases, I would hope the pastors of these churches would still speak out against abortion and attempt to have their congregations pool its resources with the resources of other congregations so as to still have some sort of meaningful impact on the area at large.
Truthseeker: Xalisae posted a few days ago saying she really needed to talk to someone, and a bunch of people posted their e-mail addresses. As far as I can tell, no one’s heard from her since, so we’re getting worried.
I just stopped in over the past day or so (I’ve been extremely busy with school work, and trying to get into law school). If anyone talks to Xalisae (I love that girl!!), tell her I’m thinking about her and wish that everything works out for the best, whatever it is that’s wrong.
Marauder and TS,
At least Elisabeth and I have contacted X and we both have heard back from her. She isn’t in any physical danger or anything like that. She basically said she needed to talk with people about something. So she is okay, but could use prayers for her special intention.
Just to clarify, when I said above “At least Elisabeth and I have contacted X” I don’t mean to say “at least I’ve done something – you’ve done nothing!” What I mean is that to my knowledge, Elisabeth and I have contacted her and received a reply, but that there could be others who have received a reply too of which I am unaware. Super.
Xalisae – lifting your needs up in prayer to our loving Father.
I am not surprised, the church has long been asleep.
X- Don’t know what you are going thru, but am also lifting you up in prayer :)
thx for the clarfirfication Bobby
The debate over abortion is supposed to be heated, emotional and passionate.
We are talking about life and death, aren’t we?
Frankly, until someone gets fired up about all the thousands of innocent children being killed every day the only thing that’s going to happen is the same thing that has happened since 1973:
Not much
Sure we’ve had a few minor victories here and there, and we have saved a few babies, but God’s precious children are continuously being slaughtered by the thousands and thousands, every day, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year.
50,000,000+ innocent precious children and counting
And the worst thing that can happen is that we grow accustomed to the massacre. Or like Punisher, our hearts become hardened and we start believing that it’s not every church’s responsibility to fight to defend the preborn from torture and death.
As if those living within a few kilometers of Auschwitz had no responsibility to confront the genocide of their generation.
Yeah, right.
So you know what I say? As long as the church continues to sleep and ignore this horrific satanic atrocity being executed in our very own neighborhoods; as long as it is deaf to the silent screams of the children and oblivious to the devastating emotional trauma inflicted on moms and dads; as long as the church remains derelict in its duty to confront this most prevalent evil in our society, I say:
“Let the epithets fly.”
It is time for each of us to decide which side of this war we are going to fight on. Are we going to fight for God’s Truth and Justice for every child given the Right to Life? Or are we going to shrink back into an apathetic malaise, a spiritual stupor, clueless to the battle raging around us, overly preoccupied with “doing church”.
Punisher, we have heard your complaints regarding Todd’s ministry to the churches in Ventura. We reject them. So let’s just obey scripture, agree to disagree, and you can take your gibberish to some other lukewarm “Christian” blog where I’m sure your arguments will be well received.
This is a hard core Pro-Life website. God bless the atheists that hang out here with us but the majority of us are Christians whose hearts have been stirred by God and are compelled to engage in the Battle for Life and to defend the preborn from the most evil, cataclysmic campaign of death, perpetrated by satan, in the history of man.
Our foundational strategy for battle is 2Chr 7.14. God is calling the church in America to repent. Punisher, I could provide you references but by your comments, you don’t sound like you’re too much interested in hearing what God is saying to the church.
As far as time and place are concerned, you are right that the sidewalk outside the church is not the best place for a Genocide Awareness Project and Todd is not God’s first choice to conduct it. The best place is in the front of the church and the pastor is the one who should be educating and leading his congregants. If he shirks his duty, then God will raise up a Todd Bullis or some other soldier of Righteousness to call the church to repent.
So let us Pro-Lifers run to the Battle, whether it is in intercession, at the local child killing center, at the local Crisis Pregnancy Center, like Todd, at your local lukewarm church, or perhaps just at your job, where you can work to help support other Pro-Life groups and ministries in their fine work.
Let us run the race which Christ has set before us, that we might be found faithful in His Sight.
Respectfully, Ed, human passion aside, Scripture is abundantly clear about striving for unity among believers. It is important to pay attention to all of Scripture and not just the parts that one prefers. In particular, while we all will disagree from time to time, it is also desirable to disagree agreeably with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Beating Punisher over the head with angry epithets is not a work of the Holy Spirit. Please read Galatians 5:16-26.
I am with you Ed. I have read Galatians 5:16-26 and I think you are ok here. I do not believe you are conceited, provoking and envying each other nor do I think you are out side of what the Spirit is calling the Church to do. If only more men felt like you but many more feel like Punisher. Most pastors feel the same way Punisher does. I love the guy but I know that God is calling the Church to stand up.
Tom I love you also, you have been very kind to me and I thank you but boy do i love what Ed is saying, it is joy to my spirit.
Please remember the next time Jesus comes it will be to judge the world.
I think you are spot on Ed.
I’m not so sure Tom. I have read a lot of biblical accounts where prophets (not that I’m a prophet), or John the Baptist or Jesus or Paul called sinners and the ungodly to repentence. The unity was sought only after the iniquity was called out, and repented of.
My problem is that I believe the core / fundamental / main reason abortion is so prevalent in our society is that the church has been sound asleep. My convictions about this atrocity were first formed when I saw the movie “Silent Scream” in a Catholic Church around 35 years ago. The fact that most churches today choose to ignore the genocide ocurring in their own neighborhoods and amongst their own congregation is unconscionable.
God’s Judgement upon our country is imminent. He cannot deny His Holy Nature. The blood of innocent children flowing red in the sewers beneath our cities cries out for vengence.
I have little patience for so-called Christians that want to defend the church in its lukewarm, apathetic, carnal, worldly state. The church needs to repent! Or many of us may find ourselves saying, “Lord Lord, did we not…”
I’m not trying to be mean, and I could be wrong, but I suspect “Punisher” is “Ex-GOP” a frequent commenter that many of us have gone round and round with yet like Punisher, refuses to acknowledge the need for churches to repent, to apeak out against abortion regularly, take a strong firm clear stand, and get in this fight.
You make a good point though, and scripture encourages us not to engage in a fool or a scorner lest we get caught up in his folly.
I suppose I could ignore Punisher, but my intent wasn’t to just be critical, but that he might awaken out of his religious sleepwalk. Ignoring him didn’t seem like the right thing to do.
I appreciate your comments though. I read the passage and will read it again.
Peace
Todd,
May God bless you, strengthen you and continue to equip you for Battle.
Isn’t it a blessing to know that we have the privilege of fighting God’s battles for Him in these Last Days?
Pretty soon it will all be over. People will die and will be judged for what they did with their lives.
May Jesus help all of us to know His Will and how we can best please Him.
You are right Ed. The thing I love the most about what God is having me do is that I get to see his work. His hand touch people, it is so cool. I think I am the most hugged man in Ventura lol and one of the most hated.
LOL!!!
I bet those hugs make up for some of the daggers the so-called “Christians” like to try to stab you with in the back.
What an awesome life though, seeing God work, knowing you are doing His work, meeting the needs of hurting people, what meaning and fulfillment, what joy!
Praise God!!!
I watched the video and I came to the conclusion that this Todd Bullis person is just a trouble maker and has no credibility at all and neither do you. I rinse my hair in vinegar water. And I have gotten it into my eye before. If he had been sprayed in the eye with vinegar water his reaction would have been a lot different. And in your article you said,”sprayed Todd in the face with vinegar (an acid)” you did not say vinegar water.
I think you are both acting like drama queens looking for attention. And Todd Bullis was working hard to get a reaction he should be glad he got what he was striving for.
I don’t know why he has a vendetta against this church or why you have jumped on the band wagon. But I know that the stand that the Assembly of God takes is pro-life.
God’s main message in the New Testament is Love. And it seems that I remember reading that you should not bear false witness. Maybe you should do a little review?
RAC,
1. Even if diluted with water, as an acid vinegar still stings ones eyes and left untreated can cause damage to your eyes. Go ahead and try it and tell us how “loving” you think it feels.
2. Assault is still illegal, no matter whether an Assembly of God member does it or a Planned Parenthood member does it.
3. Rude is still bad manners and unloving, no matter whether an Assembly of God pastor does it or a Planned Parenthood member does it.
4. Nobody is bearing false witness — except you in suggesting that Todd or I are — since this has all been documented on video and e-mail.
5. If “the stand that the Assembly of God takes is pro-life,” what good is it if it is only lip service?
Maybe you should do a little review?
Dear RAC
Why dont you come out and see me this Sunday. I would love to talk to you in person. I am the older good looking guy, lol. The guy that looks like Homer Simpson.
Here are the 5 things I would like to see the First Assembly of God do here in Ventura.
1.Financially support Local CPC on a monthly basis.
2.Preach an in depth comprehensive sermon on abortion during both Sunday services.
3.Urge each family in the church to display a pro life bumper sticker with a toll-free phone number or website URL offering help for women in crisis pregnancy.
4.Help married couples understand the abortifacient properties of many commonly used birth control drugs and devices. Such as IUD cause abortions.
5.Encourage worshipers to donate time and money to the pro life movement.
All of these things are easy to do and should be done by all Christian churches.
What I want to see is movement within the church to promote the Pro Life agenda.
A church can not just say it is Pro-Life it must be Pro-Active in the Pro-Life movement, at least in some level.
Our Christian witness is badly damaged when we pursue unity at the expense of justice.
Revelation 3: verse 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God.
1John3:8 “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the work of the devil.” Torturing babies to death is incontestably “the work of the devil.” But by the power of our Lord, we must stand up and say to our churches enough is enough, we must become active in the Pro-Life movement.
Here are some more things Churches can do to make a difference.
I thank God for the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform.
http://www.abortionno.org/Matt/churches.html
Todd,
In light of your and my recent comments pertaining to unity, I want to be clear that I am not saying we should pursue unity to the point of avoiding needed confrontation.
I am, however, pointing out that unity is much more likely to be achieved when confrontations are reasoned and factual rather than hostile and angry, and that Scripture does not support anger as a way for Christians to deal with each other or the world.
Do you not yourself try to behave in such a manner when you are out there picketing? We represent Jesus to the world. I hope that we will all strive to do so well.
Tom
For sure Tom. It is always in love. I also like to take if a step further and say in love and be humble. People love humble but God loves it even more. God draws near the humble but pushes away the prideful.
I dont think Ed was being hateful or prideful. I just think he is getting ready for action.
Dear Tom, we are good. I thank God for you. Just think someday we will all get to meet. I cant wait for that day but until than we have work to do.
Ditto, Todd.
I agree that the church is sleeping at the wheel. Something needs to wakke us up.
Today I was out in front of planned parenthood and two Christians came and talked to me about what I was doing was wrong that its peoples choice and that I should read the Bible were it says do not judge and one lady said that God loves you no matter what.
I believe we have a big big mission field in our own Churches. I believe that most people who go to church are not saved and that is why the church is so weak.
I get so tired of talking to so called Christians who try to tell me that God is love and we should not judge others. They have no heart for the lost and no heart to end injustices.
“Today I was out in front of planned parenthood and two Christians came and talked to me about what I was doing was wrong that its peoples choice and that I should read the Bible were it says do not judge and one lady said that God loves you no matter what.”
Wow, there is such a strong delusion that has gripped so many professing Christians.
God is Holy.
Jesus said most people end up in Hell.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Mt 7:13–14
This is a difficult truth. But I can guarantee you one thing, Jesus didn’t lie.
And what does it say about a majority of Americans who voted into office the most pro death politician in the history of our country – someone who voted to deny comforting medical care to precious little victims of botched abortions.
God will hold each of us accountable.
“And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Lk 12:4–5
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10:30–31
“Today I was out in front of planned parenthood and two Christians came and talked to me about what I was doing was wrong that its peoples choice and that I should read the Bible were it says do not judge and one lady said that God loves you no matter what.”
If life were that simple, the Bible could have been written on a postcard.
Saturday morning is often a busy time for prayer and protests at abortuaries, so I’m praying tonight for a strong turnout of pro-lifers across our great Land!
Todd, God bless you this weekend!
Sunday I will be back at First Assembly of God. Pray for their hearts to be softened and their eyes to be opened.
Will do, Todd. BTW, I like to have at least my pocket New Testament w/Psalms & Proverbs out with me when I’m on the sidewalk. Next time some who id themselves as Christians preach this to you, perhaps you could hand them one and ask them to find the verse they’re referring to with the ‘not judging’ advice, and if they find Matthew 7, invite them to keep reading past verse 1 & 2 to reach verses 16 through 20. The “fruit” of abortion (and those very attitudes which condone or ignore it) is what’s depicted on your signs. If we’re in the full armor of God, His Word is the sword we ought to be wielding.
God bless you & pour out His fresh anointing on you.
Todd:
Don’t forget to pst on what happened.
Phil I dont have your personal email can you send it to me please, just send me an email to todd@abortionwoes.com
thanks.
Xalisae I am praying for you and your family that everything will be alright. You are so special that so many of us are concerned about you and are praying for you.
Hey Tom,
Not sure if you’re still monitoring this thread but I’ve been thinking about what you said. I’m always checking my heart and motives to try to make sure I’m operating in love.
We’re all still growing in His Grace, right?
“Beating Punisher over the head with angry epithets is not a work of the Holy Spirit.”
Just thinking about the words of Jesus, “But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance…” Mt 3:7–8 NKJV
and of Paul, ” For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith…” Tt 1:10–13 NKJV
So I guess I have to respectfully disagree with you that angry epithets can not be the work of the Holy Spirit, sometimes they are. Particularly when you are dealing with religious types that are deceived into thinking they are doing God’s will, when they’re not.
There are many professing Christians, that voted to elect the most pro death, slippery, deceptive, president in the history of our country – a man so evil and hostile to the preborn that he voted to deny comforting medical care to suffering victims of botched abortions.
They did so because many pastors have failed to warn their congregations and boldly preach God’s Truth about the worst genocide in the history of man being executed right now, in our neighborhoods, every day.
” Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever.” Ga 1:3–5 NKJV
It is easy to backslide into worldliness and the deception of satan. Pastors have an awesome responsibility to warn their flocks, lest they be deceived by “this present evil age” and perish.
God is Loving and Merciful, but He is also Holy and Just.
God is calling America to repent.
(Shelley’s testimony)
Eternal destinies hang in the balance.
I agree with you Ed but would even go a step further. Many Christians are guilty of the 3rd Commandment. “You shall not make for yourself an idol”
Many Christians have created their a false idol of Jesus think that their Jesus is all love, kindness and compassionate. That Jesus will not judge us but forgives everything. (I am not saying Tom is doing this because I believe he is not doing this) Many Christians do.
They do not see the way Jesus delt with the Rich man in Mark 10: 17-25, its not funny but even the disciples were astonished at what Jesus did.
Again most Christians don’t quote Mathew 10:34
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
There ae many places in the Bible were
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 21:12
Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
My point is that it is wrong to make Jesus this loving forgiving god that does not require repentance and that is not going to judge us someday.
See Jude 1:14-15
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
Ed: I’m not trying to be mean, and I could be wrong, but I suspect “Punisher” is “Ex-GOP” a frequent commenter that many of us have gone round and round with yet like Punisher, refuses to acknowledge the need for churches to repent, to apeak out against abortion regularly, take a strong firm clear stand, and get in this fight.
Me: Bearing false witness is not of God, not of the Holy Spirit, not of the Bible.
You did it to multiple times in this one paragraph.
One, I am not ex-gop.
Two, I strongly hold to churches should repent of its sins. We do that weekly. I am opposing us trying to go about lording ourselves over other churches.
Three, you are very foolish to claim I don’t speak out against abortion regularly. I post against abortion on this blog, Cassy Fiano’s blog, Live Action blog, Zolaboard and other Christian boards, and even going into “enemy territories” to do so. Just because I don’t believe churches’ number one priorities is to speak against abortion does not mean I believe they should be silent on it completely. You might as well judged Christ and the apostles for not railing against injustices of their times which by the way INCLUDED ABORTIONS. Or you forgot abortions took place among Greeks and Romans of ancient times?
Ed: You make a good point though, and scripture encourages us not to engage in a fool or a scorner lest we get caught up in his folly.
Me: Look in the mirror if you are going to accuse others of being a fool, scorner, or of folly. Your post is full of it, not to mention dishonest accusations.
Ed: I suppose I could ignore Punisher, but my intent wasn’t to just be critical, but that he might awaken out of his religious sleepwalk. Ignoring him didn’t seem like the right thing to do.
Me: I am so into sleepwalking that I post against abortion regularly here and so many other blogs and other message boards, prolife and prochoice alike?
Gimme a break.
Your post is not of God. It is of the flesh, self-serving, and self-righteous false accusations against me.
I simply took a stand because my appeal is to the model of the New Testament church and because as passionate as I am about being opposed to abortion and calling it to be illegal as murder, I am even MORE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT GOD, BIBLICAL CHURCH, AND THE GOSPEL!
So your accusations I am a religious sleepwalk is purely juvenile and once again display your propensity for EXALTING YOURSELF and PUTTING OTHERS DOWN.
What did Christ say about that?
“I get so tired of talking to so called Christians who try to tell me that God is love and we should not judge others.”
I have no problem judging others and you judging others, as long as it done biblically and done without being self-righteous about it. That’s where we have to be careful. Christ forbid us to judge when we are guilty ourselves of what we are judging. He never forbid us to judge.
Paul did limit judging to between Christians.
But know that if we do judge, we should be willing to be judged, by others, by the same standards.
I have no problem saying I did some judging here, and I do feel I am biblical about it.
“They have no heart for the lost and no heart to end injustices.”
You don’t know their hearts, do you?
“Many Christians have created their a false idol of Jesus think that their Jesus is all love, kindness and compassionate. That Jesus will not judge us but forgives everything. (I am not saying Tom is doing this because I believe he is not doing this) Many Christians do.”
Until a person turns and comes to Christ, the person is under the law, judged, and fully condemned under the law, under God’s wrath, justice, anger.
Don’t get me wrong- I do hold to Christ paid for the sins of everyone, and from objective standpoint the sins of everybody are forgiven at the cross, paid for, ransomed.
But until the person actually receives that payment, receives that forgiveness, the person actually does not possess the forgiveness, redemption, justification, etc. (term theologians called subjective justification).
Apart from Christ, we all die in our sins and awaiting judgment- in Adam.
A God of love without God of wrath and justice and holiness is indeed an idol of liberal vain imagination.
Not the biblical God.
Ed: Punisher, we have heard your complaints regarding Todd’s ministry to the churches in Ventura. We reject them. So let’s just obey scripture, agree to disagree, and you can take your gibberish to some other lukewarm “Christian” blog where I’m sure your arguments will be well received.
Me: Except I don’t do lukewarm churches.
My brand of Christianity is conservatlve uncompromising on what we feel are biblical truths.
So nice slander there.
So much for your claim to obedience to Scriptures on your part.
Oh I forgot you believe in obeying God’s word- except the part about not bearing false witness, not to slander, not to be a hypocrite, etc., etc.
Who is the father of lies?
Satan.
And nice remark about agreeing to disagree then follow up with more insults, slurs, and lies.
What did Christ say about HYPOCRISY?
Ed: This is a hard core Pro-Life website. God bless the atheists that hang out here with us but the majority of us are Christians whose hearts have been stirred by God and are compelled to engage in the Battle for Life and to defend the preborn from the most evil, cataclysmic campaign of death, perpetrated by satan, in the history of man. Our foundational strategy for battle is 2Chr 7.14. God is calling the church in America to repent. Punisher, I could provide you references but by your comments, you don’t sound like you’re too much interested in hearing what God is saying to the church.
Me: More like you can’t defend your take, so you throw out slander, cheap epithets, and false accusations, and hide behind I am not interested in what God has to say, so you will disobey what you claim is God’s will to proclaim his truth.
How self-serving, disingenous, and full of hubris and self-righteous you are.
2 Chronciles 7:14 speak of a nation in covenant with God.
It is OT verse by the way.
It is foundation for how a nation should be called back to God.
But in terms of regular preachings of the churches?
No.
Christ and His apostles provided that in the NT.
ABORTIONS AND INFANTICIDES ABOUNDED BACK THEN, TOO.
Or do you claim to know more than Christ and His apostles?
“I think you are spot on Ed.”
Spot on?
Ed’s words are caricatures of what us prolifers are.
False accusations, faise witness, slurs, etc., are things I think proabortionists, so-called prochoicers, etc., not what we do.
He accused me of being into lukewarm churches. False.
He accused me of being ex-gop. False.
He accused me of being hard hearted against taking a stand against abortion. Wrong again.
He accused me of not caring for the unborn. False again.
He then said let’s agree to disagree before tossing out grenades at me.
There is a word for that: hypocrite.
He also played card of how much more he is into God and that my heart is not into God or His word.
Same thing Pharisee did in Christ’s parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.
There is nothing spot on about any of that. He is right abortion is our evil of the day, but the manner he does it is nothing biblical at all. It is anti-biblical and self-righteousness masguarading as biblical godliness.
If you consider that spot on, you partake of his wickedness.
Yeah, lying, slander, bearing false witness, etc., may not be as bad as abortion, murder, etc., to us.
But with the sinner before God- it gets them the same result, unless they are truly saved and in Christ- eternal death.
Ed: Just thinking about the words of Jesus, “But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance…” Mt 3:7–8 NKJV
Me: You fit the word Pharisee perfectly in many different ways:
1) You say let’s agree to disagree then trashed me some more right in same sentence afterwards. That’s hypocrisy there. That’s basically what Christ called the Pharisees out on.
2) You claim how much you are into God and over and over again claim I am into apostate, lukewarm churches and that my heart is dead against God as your stupid excuse not to quote more Scriptures. That’s doing what the Pharisee did in Christ’s parable: exalting himself over another as claiming to be better before God.
3) You claim if churches don’t preach on abortion to your satisfaction then those churches are apostate. Guess what? You just put burdens on churches in ways Christ and His apostles nowhere did. In fact, by your standards, Christ and His apostles would be apostates since they did not preach regularly or even at all against the injustices of their day that INCLUDED ABORTIONS AND SLAVERY.
So what did Christ accused the Pharisees of? Putting burdens on others that is not commanded.
So keep justiying yourself in your slanders and rantings against me with Scriptures like that. But know this- you are condemning YOURSELF with those Scriptures.
Todd: I dont think Ed was being hateful or prideful. I just think he is getting ready for action.
Me: Then I suggest you are doing the same as Christians who you complained about when they lower the standards of God or changing God to make Him only a God of love, but nothing us.
Ed lied about me repeatedly. Ed pretend to agree to agree then throw more insults. That’s hypocrisy. He played repeated card of how much he is into God than me when he does not know the first thing about me. That’s exalting himself.
If you don’t see any of that as ungodly and prideful and embarrassing to our prolife cause, then I suggest you do some soul searching and ask yourself are you yourself lowering God’s standards for our walk so you can fight the prolife battle?
Being a diehard prolifer does not make one a stronger Christian in of itself, if one’s heart and actions are not right with God.
Don’t you guys have anything better to do than quarrel with each other? Let it go, guys … this has been going on for days.
2 Tim. 2:22-24
==============
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Galatians 5:19-21
=================
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, DISCORD, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, DISSENSIONS, FACTIONS and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 13:12-14
===============
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
1 Cor. 11: 16-22
================
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
Proverbs 10:12
==============
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
Proverbs 15:8
=============
A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.
Proverbs 17:19
==============
He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
Proverbs 20:3
=============
It is to a man’s honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.
I’m done Tom.
In fact, I didn’t even read what Punisher wrote. I might go back and peruse it some day.
Bottom line: he said he thought Todd was wrong for picketing a church, I disagree.
Done.
Ed,
Far be it from me as a journalist to seek to stifle free and open discussion. But is too much to hope that we keep it productive rather than destructive?
As Christians, I would hope that we have bigger fish to fry than each other, better ways to spend our time than ripping apart fellow pro-lifers because we see some things differently.
We are not always going to agree on the methods. But we all agree that murdering babies is wrong, and that we need to be using the gifts God has given us — within the bounds of His Word and the law — to help stop this hideous destruction of human life. Can we not stay focused on this goal?
One last point: This site is frequented by non-believers. How we treat one another here will speak volumes to those who visit. Do we really want our witness to be one in which we are hurling insults at one another? Is that how little what being a Christian means to us? Is that the evidence of Jesus in our hearts and lives?
Food for thought guys. No judgments. I’ve been guilty of doing it myself. But if we want to help clean up the world, it needs to start in our own backyard first.
Tom
Good news, today two guys came out and talked to me from the church and after about 10 min they agreed with me that what I was doing was right. we talked for about 30 min.
They also explained how helpless they feel about abortion. After another 10 min of me giving them some things they can do they said they will call the local CPC and help out. They also said that they would be calling me.
They also thanked me for being who I was. They said they had the wrong idea and after talking with me completely understand.
We now have 3 guys. lol God is so Good. 3 guys who are now going to speak up inside the church. We are winning.
What a good day.
oh and one old man flipped me off and than went into church, lol love that guy.
Thank God. That’s wonderful news, Todd. Keep on keeping on, brother.
Great report Todd, good job.
Hey Punisher,
What do you say we patch this up? Let’s put all of the insults from both sides under the Blood of Christ, forgive each other, agree to disagree, and move on in peace.
To summarize your position, as I understand it from your 4/14 5:58 post: (feel free to clarify)
Not all churches are called to support CPC’s or speak out against abortion. They need to be faithful to do the ministry God called them to which may or not include the Pro-Life actions we promote.
And Todd’s actions and activism are not consistent with New Testament teaching but are actually contrary to it and are divisive.
My position is that every pastor and church in America should be actively Pro-Life. I believe that every pastor should devote at least 1 sermon per year to preach against abortion and should condemn this most evil genocide in the history of man frequently, working commentary into additional sermons throughout the year. It should be mentioned as often as he warns his flock against the wickedness of the world and the dangers of being seduced by satan to commit various sins including the temptation to kill innocent children.
I believe the failure of pastors in America to do what I listed above is precisely what allows satan to kill over a million innocent children every year. If pastors led their congregations as I suggest, abortion would either be illegal or we would be well on our way to making it so. We’d certainly be a lot further along than we are now.
Furthermore, because of this deriliction of duty by church leadership, in addition to not leading their congregations into deeper revelations of the Love of God and the Fear of God, I believe the state of the Christian Church in America is backslidden, that Jesus is working to revive her , and that His Judgments against America are imminent.
And finally, I fully support Todd Bullis efforts to meet with church leadership to bring this crisis to their attention. And if they refuse to hear him and continue this gross negligence of their congregations, to their own peril, I support his efforts to educate them himself from the sidewalk.
Punisher, I don’t expect you to agree with me and I doubt further debate would be productive. Let’s just agree to disagree on this, and agree to agree on the Precious Love and Mercy of our Savior.
Peace
Quick note –
I see some folks wildly throwing out that Punisher and me are the same – Punisher shot me an email (you can find where he sent me his email address in the Todd thread from a week and a half ago) alerting me to this. I’ve withdrawn a bit(a lot) from the board for a while as my head was sore from beating it against walls…
Just to clarify though, Punisher is his own person, as am I.
One thought on this thread – Ed posted in his last thought that since pastors don’t often preach one sermon a year, that they are contributing to the killing of babies.
Ed – my pastor don’t preach yearly that I shouldn’t shoot people. Nothing on extortion. nothing on selling crack.
I have a Bible that I read. As a Christian, I read that Bible. I know I shouldn’t shoot people, sell crack, or get an abortion.
What you want is a pastor to give political thoughts about voting for certain people or rioting – I’m not sure – how do you think that support would flip it? I missed that.
What you suggest though is just plain silly – again, that’s why I think churches should preach the gospel and convert Christians, who will then in study and smaller groups learn things they should know already – like you shouldn’t get abortions or shoot people or sell crack.
What you suggest is also a Biblical hostage situation – do what I say or we will display signs. Come on man – should ever church have 50 special interest groups out front each Sunday?
If 1 in 3 women were shooting their toddlers and society looked the other way or actually started to encourage the shooting of toddlers, I sure would hope the pastors would preach more than once a year on the topic!
But I don’t claim to be a theologian, this is just what I believe. . . . .
Great point Praxedes.
Hey EGV,
“my pastor don’t preach yearly that I shouldn’t shoot people. Nothing on extortion. nothing on selling crack.”
Not sure what you’re getting at here. I live just outside of Detroit where we have shootings on a daily basis, dozens of innocent people killed every year just caught in the cross-fire; we’ve got too many crack dealers; and the President of the Detroit City Council, Monica Conyers, wife of “esteemed” US Congressman John Conyers, was just convicted and sentenced to 37 months for accepting bribes for her vote for a $1 billion wastewater treatment contract.
I don’t know where you live, but here in the Detroit area, we need pastors to preach exactly what you suggest, albeit sarcastically. Our 911 call center got over 1000 calls this morning.
Are you saying that no one in your congregation gets or pays for abortions? That would be great. Depending on where you live, that might be quite the statistical anomaly.
But like you, I’m tired of the proverbial head beating. I owe Punisher an apology. I was frustrated, fed up and I unloaded on him. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So Punisher, if your out there, I’m sorry.
And while I’m at it, I suppose I should apologize to other readers/commenters as well, and add perhaps a little advice.
As we continue to witness the decline of our society, we have to guard against being overwhelmed with the wickedness around us. And we can’t be deceived into thinking that it’s all on us to “change the world”.
The fact is that we each have a small part to play and we just need to be faithful over that part.
So I’m not going to knock myself out trying to convince you and Punisher of the damage that’s been done to our society because many church leaders aren’t teaching deeply enough about the Fear of God, His Holiness, Sin and the importance of keeping the First Commandment.
“What you suggest though is just plain silly – again, that’s why I think churches should preach the gospel and convert Christians, who will then in study and smaller groups learn things they should know already – like you shouldn’t get abortions or shoot people or sell crack.”
Like they do down in Houston EGV? Home of dozens of great churches like Joel Osteen’s mega-church where they’re so busy thinking nice thoughts they forgot to vote in the last mayoral election?
Here’s the data:
Houston Population: over 2 million
% Evangelical Protestants – approx. 30% 600,000
% Catholic – approx. 20% 400,000
Total vote count 2009 Houston Mayoral election – 175,000. Lesbian candidate Annise Parker got the most votes, 54K, not a majority so she ultimately received 80K of a total of 150K votes cast in the runoff.
Now, local pastors are scrambling trying get her to rescind her recent executive orders adding sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression as protected classes in Houston.
I can’t wait to see how she tries to use her influence to shape the sex ed. curriculum
And your solution is…cell groups???
We need to wake up.
Years ago, David Wilkerson wrote a book called The Vision, where God showed him that here at the end of the age, natural disasters would be coming in cycles with increasing intensity as if the Earth was having birth pangs.
There isn’t anything silly about what I’ve said or what’s coming on the Earth.
I’ve got some work to do to get my house in order because I’m convinced we’re in for some difficult times just ahead. God is going to allow it so that we’ll turn back to Him.
So I will respectfully and cordially disagree with you and Punisher.
Peace
Ed – Just curious? When did we have our faces to him? Was it during the 1800’s when half the country were slave states? Maybe the 1900’s when we were still lynching people and oppressed women? What days were we really looking towards God? Just curious.
On what you wrote – yes, a lot of it is true. Heck, my dad’s congregation has about 5 people less than 50. The abortion culture is probably running pretty wild. I haven’t gone person to person in my church (which has much more young people). I can’t say if it does or if it doesn’t. I could tell you that everyone would know it is wrong, whether or not somebody preached on it.
Poor Houston though – I mean, a gay person. I shudder at the thought. It’s a little sad though that we’re okay with politicians who cozy up with folks who screw over the pocket-books of millions (see all the good friends of Jack Abramoff) – but I mean, if somebody is gay – wow – the wrath of God is coming down on us. Somehow, my Bible has a heck of a lot more on rich folks oppressing poor folks…
I don’t mean to be disrespectful – I guess I’d simply rather have a gay mayor than one who’s doing back room deals with shady books.
I fundamentally agree with you – I think churches do need to teach what is right and wrong. Don’t misread me. What I don’t like is non-members/attenders of a church dictating to another church where they spend their time and resources. I mean Ed – if I thought your church wasn’t spending enough time or resources on one of my pet causes, do you think the proper thing to do would be to print off big signs and come protest? Probably not.
Well said, Ed. Thank you.
Ex-GOP,
Regarding your comment: “if I thought your church wasn’t spending enough time or resources on one of my pet causes, do you think the proper thing to do would be to print off big signs and come protest?” this isn’t Todd’s pet cause. This is God’s. There is a difference.
Tom
K Tom – let me rephrase.
We can agree that there’s a lot of God’s causes, right? So let’s say I felt that your church wasn’t doing enough to feed the homeless – or prison outreach ministries. Or maybe supporting missionaries. Now, I don’t go to your church, but I feel that you folks aren’t doing a good job. Would you feel it would be the Biblical thing to then print up big signs (that are offensive to families with young kids) and protest your church?
If you think it’s okay, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree – I just see no Biblical justification to it unless a person feels the church isn’t a Christian church – and if it is a church that isn’t following the will of God, well, protesting it probably isn’t going to do much good.
Truthfully, Ex-GOP, I would probably have agreed with you until I thought about what Todd was doing more carefully. That was why I contacted the church in the first place.
But how is the church as a whole going to be light and salt to a dark and decaying world it’s dark and decaying, too? This was what God’s messages to the churches in identified in Revelations was all about. We know better! We’ve been given a precious gift.
Todd’s call to churches to repent is right on the money.
I’ve examined this a little more in depth in some commentaries I wrote a couple of years ago. If you’re interested, you can find them here:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Ambrose/tom1.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Ambrose/tom2.htm
In essence, we need to clean house. Todd, I suspect, is one of many yet to come who will be helping the church to do just that.
Tom
EGV,
Again, like you I’ve grown tired of the debate and I’ve got a lot of work to do.
To just quickly respond to your questions, Peter Marshall wrote a great book documenting the Hand of God working in the lives of Americans from our Founding Fathers up to the Civil War called The Light and the Glory. Then of course there was the Great Awakening of 1739 and 1740 when George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards brought revival to New England. And the Azuza Street Revival 1906-1915 which gave birth to the Assemblies of God. And now of course you have the Student Awakening going on down in Kansas City.
“Poor Houston though – I mean, a gay person. I shudder at the thought. It’s a little sad though that we’re okay with politicians who cozy up with folks who screw over the pocket-books of millions (see all the good friends of Jack Abramoff) – but I mean, if somebody is gay – wow – the wrath of God is coming down on us. Somehow, my Bible has a heck of a lot more on rich folks oppressing poor folks…”
“I don’t mean to be disrespectful – I guess I’d simply rather have a gay mayor than one who’s doing back room deals with shady books.”
Wow EGV, you are really, really missing it. You have no clue that God’s Judgments are imminent, or that America is in trouble. You are thinking temporally, as if having a gay mayor wouldn’t be so bad.
Homosexuality is sin!
God hates sin!
Why?
Because sin keeps people out of Heaven and damns them to Hell for eternity!
And God loves homosexuals and sinners like you and me so much that Jesus paid the ultimate price so that they/we wouldn’t have to go there!
Does your Bible say,”But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.” Eph 5:3–7
Frankly EGV, and I don’t say this to offend you or be mean or critical or try to get an advantage in an argument.
Forget all that crap.
Let me just say that I implore you to really, really seek God to hear what He is saying to the American Church in this hour.
As Tom said, abortion is NOT Todd’s pet cause.
It most definitely is one of God’s.
“wow – the wrath of God is coming down on us.”
God’s wrath is very real, and shouldn’t be mocked. Just because He’s delayed it for a season, doesn’t mean it’s not coming.
“If you think it’s okay, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree”
I definitely agree to disagree.
Good night.
If Punisher or EGV or anyone else would like to know what God is saying to His Church in America today, I strongly recommend:
Shelley’s Turn Word (enter “Shelley’s Turn Word” in the search box at the lower right of the video window)
Shelley’s Testimony (enter “Shelley Testimony” and select Feb, 20, 2010, powerful!)
Shelley’s Encounter, The Bride (Shelley Bride)
Google “Rick Joyner The Weightiest Matter” (PDF)
John Paul Jackson Perfect Storm pt.1 and pt. 2
God bless!
Just got back from church.
Sermon on abortion.
Guess I’m legit now and sounds like my church is more “Christian” than most of yours!
Very Cool Ex-GOP.
So is your church a
Pro-Life Church or a
Pro-Indifferent Church or a
Pro-Choice Church.
Here is a hint on how to find out.
You can tell by what they do not by what they say.
Oh and we went out in front of the 1st assembly of God again today and its great people are stopping and getting out of their cars and giving us hugs and thanking us. It was a fun day. They are also denouncing Hixson. Assembly of God is still silent but a few of their members are now talking with us and they agree with us and thank us for still being out their.
Todd – we are a Christian church.
What have you done to reach out to Hixson in reconciliation? Have you two met?
Actually – doesn’t matter if you answer or not as I think I know the answer.
I have made every effort. Hixson will not talk with me nor will Jon Hixson come out and see me. He goes in the back parking lot now so he does not have to show his face. I am at least glad he has some shame.
I have made my self available. I have emailed the church asking if we can talk. I have met with Internal Affairs and they told me I might not ever get an apology from Hixson. If Hixson will not call me I cant get a hold of him. I am not mad at Hixson whether or not he apologies to me or not is on him, i did nothing wrong. I sleep very well at night.
Things are good. A retired Christian police officer stopped and told me Hixson is a disgrace and should be fired and he was glad to see that Hixson did not bully us away.
It would be nice if Hixson would apologize it would show some character. It’s only to his discredit that he is not apologizing. If he did not do anything wrong than why not do it again Jon?
So Ex-GOP did you guess right?
Ok Ex-GOP lets try this again.
So is your church a
Pro-Life Christian Church or a
Pro-Indifferent Christian Church or a
Pro-Choice Christian Church.
Here is a hint on how to find out.
You can tell by what they do not by what they say.
So you believe a church can be Christian and pro-choice? Interesting.
I don’t really believe churches can be pro-life or pro-choice – churches can be Biblical or not Biblical – but seeing that a group of people can’t have an abortion – it’s tough.
But I’m sure, given that you have a more direct link to God than anyone in Ventura, that you’ll be able to tell me what the qualifications are for a church to meet the Todd threshold.
Talked to a pastor the other day about you to get a Biblical view. He thought the best path for churches would be to ignore you, as anybody who would protest a church is in it for attention, and any church that “gave in” to you would simply get a visit from you demanding more. Just an interesting perspective.
Also said a church doesn’t have any sort of obligation to provide you any info on funding.
Just some more interesting perspective.
We have a few pro choice churches here in Ventura.
Which ones? I’d like to see their websites. I can see churches taking stances or not taking stances on issues publicly – but I don’t see how a church could publicly take a pro-choice stance.
Bill Dillon
http://www.churchofthefoothills-ventura.org/
Well that is the most prominent Church here and has some of the greatest history in Ventura, they started the frist Christian school here in ventura.
They believe that its a woman’s choice if she has an abortion and not the churches biz. They are also ok with the gay and lesbian life style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZTTXpHkyAQ
Oh and here are a few others.
American Baptist Churches-USA (see below),
American Ethical Union,
American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee,
American Jewish Committee,
American Jewish Congress,
Central Conference of American Rabbis,
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),
Council of Jewish Federations,
Episcopal Church (USA),
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot,
Moravian Church in America-Northern Province,
Na’Amat USA,
National Council of Jewish Women,
Presbyterian Church (USA),
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice,
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
Union of American Hebrew Congregations,
Unitarian Universalist Association,
United Church of Christ,
United Methodist Church,
United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism.
Check out this web site. This will give you some insight.
http://www.spiritrestoration.org/Church/Denominational-stand-on-the-issue-of-abortion.htm
The United Methodist Church
began in the early 1970s to view abortion as a “choice”. The United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the “sanctity of unborn human life.” It further states, “We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.”
Thanks Todd – one poorly made video with really nothing proved on the video you posted, and a bunch of “Christian” national organizations, about half of which are Jewish.
Thanks Sir.
Your never happy Ex. Many Churches claim to be pro Choice. No matter what I do you just make yourself look bad and grumpy. I have talked to them personally and they are pro choice and pro gay, nothing is wrong in their book.
You are ignorant if you think that no church claims to be pro choice.
Ok so skip the ones that are Jewish. What about the other half. Your bitter Ex.
I cant believe its ok to be Jewish and Pro Choice myself.
Todd,
EGV and Punisher don’t believe the American Church needs to repent regarding its quiet tolerance and passivity regarding state-sanctioned child killing.
Child killing is not that big of deal. I mean, Roe v. Wade made it legal, and a lot of people (murderers) want that option available to them.
What are you going to do, right?
And if the Church did need to repent, God would tell the pastors directly.
He certainly wouldn’t use you.
And if He did use you, He wouldn’t want you to use picket signs.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
The best thing to do is to agree to disagree with EGV and Punisher and continue do what God is calling you to do.
You are right Ed.
I think his dog died and he just needs somebody to kick around.
Hey Todd – I had simply posted that my church had a very pro-life sermon – you were the one who wanted to engage in debate again. Feel free to ignore me – I’m fine with that.
I think it is a very serious issue – I just think the way you are going about it is all wrong – that’s all. I’ve said it many times and I don’t think it needs much explaining. I’m just not very fond of people holding a church hostage – especially ones they don’t even go to. That’s it.
Cool. So we agree.
Abortion is bad.
God is good.
And we just disagree on the best way (or what we believe what God is calling us to do) to combat the evil of abortion in our generation.
Great to hear your Dad preached/taught/warned against the evils of abortion EGV.
That’s huge.
My prayer is that every pastor in our country will become so bold and uncompromisingly preach the TRUTH!
Peace
Ed – it was actually the church I go to – my dad pastor’s a different church in a different state.
But yes – all else correct.
Thanks for the clarification EGV.
This forum isn’t the best for communication. I believe frequently the intent of many comments is at least partially misunderstood.
See ya on another thread :)
EGV,
Not sure if you’re still monitoring this thread but I was curious if anything about your Pastor’s message stood out. Was there anything he said in particular that you perceived was being emphasized by the Holy Spirit?