Force abortion clinics to post graphic warnings just like cigarette companies
On November 11, wildly hypocritical pro-abort HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius announced the FDA was considering forcing cigarette companies to include graphic warnings on their packaging. I’m highlighting a few of the the proposed images throughout this post. All 36 can be viewed here.
As I said, pro-abort Sebelius is wildly – no, insanely – hypocritical. Whatever, in light of this, Theodore King at The Daily Caller has hit on a fabulous idea:
… This is the same Kathleen Sebelius who, as the governor of Kansas, was a supporter of “a woman’s right to choose” abortion and was a protector and defender of the late-term abortion “doctor” George Tiller of Wichita….
When the government gives itself the power to post in-your-face, gruesome warning labels in order to nudge public behavior, that power can work in other ways. It may come to pass that some pro-life state legislatures might just decide to post gruesome warning signs inside the waiting rooms of abortion clinics. Just imagine those posters of aborted babies going from the hands of pro-life protester Randall Terry smack dab into the waiting rooms at Planned Parenthood clinics as required by law.
This would be a real challenge to those who say they want abortions to be legal, safe, and rare, many of whom want smoking to be illegal and so rare as to become non-existent. Women with a crisis pregnancy could decide not to abort their babies once they see photos of aborted babies. Those photos in abortion clinics can save lives, and isn’t that what… Sebelius wants? It seems that she may have unwittingly opened a Pandora’s Box with these new in-your-face, like-it-or-not labels on packs of smokes forced by government fiat on taxpaying smokers. Yes, smoking, which is enjoyable, may eventually kill; and, yes, abortions, which are not enjoyable, will immediately kill.
Seriously, in light of recent pro-abort attacks against pregnancy care centers in Baltimore, Austin, and New York City demanding “truth in advertising,” and in light of the FDA’s plans to force an industry to post graphic images showing the truth about its product, I think it would behoove pro-life state governments and/or municipalities to force abortion mills to post graphic photos of aborted babies.
Seriously. How could the other side legally win an argument against it? Graphic signs could also show perforated uteruses, mastectomies, hemorrhaging, and dying post-abortive mothers.
[HT: Missy Smith]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If CPC’s are forced to provide disclaimers for not offering “services”,…they can say in big, bold, red letters WE DO NOT PROVIDE (place the pictures here) ABORTION!
I like how she seems so worried that smoking “can” or “may” harm your baby (o rly?) if you smoke while pregnant, but totally killing them by stabbing them in the back of the head and suctioning their brains out is totally cool as far as she’s concerned.
Maybe she wouldn’t be so against smoking if the tobacco CEOs just wined and dined her a little bit like Tiller did. :)
I hate hate hate smoking. I used to be a social smoker until it hit me that I was toying with my health and my life! Right after I quit I found out I was pregnant.
So in a way I am all for these pics on cigarette packages. People can still have the choice, but give them the cold hard facts. See, I actually am FOR choice. If you choose to ingest poison then thats your right. But…BUT BUT BUT when you are harming or killing an innocent person (kids in a smoker’s home, baby in the womb of a mom headed to Planned Parenthood) I stop supporting your right to “choose”.
Plus, as mentioned above, this may open doors to legislation that will put posters of aborted children in abortion clinic waiting rooms! Love it!
@xalisae: What? Is that logic and consistency I smell? Begone with them! The Great Sebelius needs not these petty conceits of mortals! ;)
Rebecca I love, love, love your suggestion. Maybe some of the creative, computer savvy prolifers could post their suggestions for posters and signs that state:
WE DO PROVIDE (insert aborted baby picture) ABORTIONS HERE!
I would like to see your ideas prolifers.
CPCs could post:
WE DO PROVIDE (show pictures of live babies, material assistance, baby equipment, ultrasounds, counselors, GED programs, medical referrals, etc.).
Sounds like great logic and consistency to me Xalisae. How are you doing?
…and the pro-aborts state that displaying abortion pictures don’t help the pro-life cause….gee, I wonder what changed?
Why stop at abortion?
Cranky, I was counting on your input! Excellent!
Abortion isn’t (despite your bogus stats) no more of a health hazard than childbirth. Should we put photos of pregnancies gone bad at Crisis Pregnancy Centers?
“Cranky Catholic”
Got actual non biased medical information to back that up? Or is that what your parish priest tells you?
What would it matter if I presented “non-biased medical information?”
You wouldn’t take what the science says anyway because pro-aborts believe science isn’t truth.
Cranky, that link is HILARIOUS!! And y’know what, my parish priest has several degrees including a doctorate, a masters, and of course a bachelor’s. Him be very smarter than I be. Lol!
Abortion isn’t (despite your bogus stats) no more…
Double-negative = Abortion is…
Not only is abortion virtually 100% fatal to the poor babies targeted for death, BUT women are also often seriously damaged during abortions, even maimed and killed.
Carol Everett, who owned a chain of abortuaries in Texas and later authored the book Blood Money: Getting Rich Off A Woman’s Right to Choose, gives a sickening, but vitally important, view of these facts in her book.
Pregnancy is a natural occurrence of life — think about it: Life does not happen without pregnancy! There is no comparison, only contrast.
Go Cranky! Go Cranky! lol! You’re awesome!
Warning: The Inspector General has determined that democRATs spread debt, disease, and death wherever they are elected.
Friends don’t let friends vote democRAT!
Cranky I love it! Thanks so much.
PREMARITAL AND EXTRA-MARITAL SEX CAUSES:
Some of the worst cases I ever saw were teen girls with an outbreak of painful Genital Herpes lesions (covering the entire region) and golfball size Genital Warts. Their body image, self-esteem and spirits were damaged or broken by this. These viral STIs are transmitted by skin-to-skin sexual contact not by exchange of body fluids therefore condoms offer very limited “risk reduction” maybe 50%, not protection. Unfortunately, teen girls are much more susceptible to STDs than mature adult women because their reproductive systems are not fully developed and STDs are more difficult to treat in teen girls as well.
EGAD! I was curious and looked up photos of genital warts and Herpes. I literally threw up in my mouth. That is AWFUL. Who would want to even risk that? Is one orgasm worth that? NO WAY! So very thankful to not have to worry about disease when I embrace my husband in the marital way.
Who would want their precious sons and daughters to play Russian roulette with their health and happiness when 1 in 4 Americans has an STD? Are the staffers at PP just brain washed or are they literally insane? I will show my son these photos one day and encourage him to be a man and control his natural desires. I want him to experience the joy of sexual ecstasy with his wife one day (and make me a grandma!). I do not want him to settle for less… a cheapened version of what God created. I don’t want him to deal with disease and heartbreak and abortion etc..
This just reaffirms that God’s way is FOR OUR OWN GOOD! Its not binding, its liberating. How liberating to be able to give yourself sexually to one who has made a lifelong commitment to you and one you know won’t give you a disease?
Logic is a characteristic generally lacking when pro-aborts try to rationalize their decision-making process. The same people who are pro-choice to abort are also pro-no-choice to refuse mandated health care Oh 2012 I wish you were here. To them pro-choice somehow means that congress helps them to determine what is in their best interests.
Yes Sydney I know. The PP “Dead Babies R Us crew” released a pamphlet for HIV positive teens with a title that is something like “Healthy and Hot” (don’t remember the exact title) but it tells HIV positive teens it is their “right” to have sex even if they are HIV positive and it is not their “responsibility” to keep their sexual partners from getting HIV. You want to bet whether they displayed pictures of people dying from HIV related infections (Karposi sarcoma, pneumocystis pneumonia, HPV rectal cancer, etc.) to motivate them to not spread HIV to others and to take their HIV cocktail meds? Talk about lack of comprehensive information to provide Informed Consent.
I love what Syndey M says:
This just reaffirms that God’s way is FOR OUR OWN GOOD! Its not binding, its liberating. How liberating to be able to give yourself sexually to one who has made a lifelong commitment to you and one you know won’t give you a disease?
You hit the nail on the head! God’s ways and commandments keep us safe! They give us freedoms! When we choose to disobey, we have to suffer the consequences. Unfortunately a lot of people see commandments as taking away their freedoms when in fact the opposite is true.
Abby Johnson who used to work for Planned Parenthood said that a lot of abortions are done without the use of ultrasound technology, this means they push the suction instrument (forget the name, it starts with a “c”) up the woman’s vagina, until they feel “tension” and that’s when they turn on the machine. This has resulted in some women having perforated uteruses and other complications.
She said there was a doctor who came to her saying he only performed abortions with ultrasound equipment. At the time she was director for a Planned Parenthood facility. The docotor invited her to see an abortion done this way. The abortion she saw was a 13 week old baby and that’s when she started becoming pro-life. She said everything was there–brain waves, heart beat, arms, legs, everything. The all of a sudden the screen went blank after the abortion was done. And that’s what happens…suddenly a blank….a life snuffed out.
@ Prolifer L The pamphlet is titled HAPPY, HEALTHY, and HOT.
http://www.ippf.org/NR/rdonlyres/B4462DDE-487D-4194-B0E0-193A04095819/0/HappyHealthyHot.pdf
Reading this is enough to make you vomit. They say it is written for the kids from 9-14 years.
Thanks Rebecca for the name and the link to the PP pamphlet not only are they the “Dead Babies R Us crew” but they are the “Dead Kids and Teens R Us crew” as well. Yuck!!! I have been telling people for years PP and their ilk “are on a mission to kill our kids born and unborn”.
Reminds me of the scripture where Jesus said “The enemy (satan) comes to steal kill and destroy, I have come that ye might have life and that more abundantly.
Prolifer L, Thanks for the scripture (John 10:10). It is a fitting passage to where Planned Parenthood and their agenda of death is like the enemy that has come to kill and destroy our youth by pushing our children to live in deceit. In that link Rebecca provided PP is encouraging HIV positive youth (especially the hot ones) that it is ok to keep your HIV positive status from sexual partners. And they teach unemancipated minors to live in a life of deceit with their legal guardians regarding abortion. Thus making the spiritual death of these youth all the graver. We, as a generation, could destroy Planned Parenthood by gathering together with our children every day and thanking God for His presence with us. If we ask God that his Holy Spirit may always dwell within us always; that we may share God’s presence with our children when we gather together with them in prayer. Joining together with our children daily to thank God for the Lordship of Jesus Christ who is a buckler and shield against all calamity.
“This just reaffirms that God’s way is FOR OUR OWN GOOD! Its not binding, its liberating. How liberating to be able to give yourself sexually to one who has made a lifelong commitment to you and one you know won’t give you a disease?”
Several problems here. First, there is risk inherent in anything we do. A pedestrian gets hit by a car once every eight minutes. Does this mean we should never walk outside? Or drive cars? No. We encourage people stay on the sidewalk, drive within the speed limit, and wear seat belts. I don’t think sex should be any different. It is unrealistic to expect everybody to simply wait until they’re married to have sex, especially since people (women) have the opportunity to do so much before settling down and getting married, like attend school, enter the workplace, and travel. People also have higher expectations for marriage. My grandmother married the boy next door when she was 17. She didn’t have the opportunity to leave her town to seek out a husband, so she made do with what was available, so to speak. The world is considerably different today, though I know more than a few religious couples who got married straight out of high school so they could finally have “licit” sex. And most of them are separated.
Megan, you missed the whole point of what I was saying. If you wanna risk your health (high risks… 1 out of 4 has STD/STI) knock yourself out. I myself don’t think an orgasm is worth eruptions of painful sores on my vulva for the rest of my life. But keep mocking God. You will reap a bitter crop based on what you’re sowing.
Thanks truthseeker good post. God bless you.
And if you want to subscribe to a mentality that implies a woman is worth only so much as what’s between her legs, then fine. Use duct tape to show your daughters what “happens” if they have premarital sex. Tell your sons they’re going to hell if they masturbate. But please don’t incite that virginity-fetishizing hysteria in other people’s children, especially in public schools.
Also, I didn’t say anything about the merits of teaching abstinence to kids. I think it’s a great idea to inform teens that they are more biologically susceptible to STIs, and to have discussions about the consequences of getting pregnant at a young age. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with encouraging kids to save sex for when they’re physically and emotionally mature. Conversations about respect, gender inequality, and faithfulness are also very important. But promoting marriage as the only realm in which sex is permissible is a strategy informed by religious ideology, not by public health. Plus it’s impractical. Most people don’t want to get married when they’re 20. We’ve thankfully moved past the time when a girl was shipped off to marriage after menarche and pregnant with her third child at age 18. Today, late adolescents are just as capable of forming stable relationships, engaging in consensual, mutually fulfilling sex, and using protection. It we can’t trust them to do this much, then a) we don’t have much confidence in our young people and b) marriage won’t do much to improve the situation.
Oh, and one last thing. Abstinence-only-until-marriage education does.not.work. Some people have attributed that failure to our sex-saturated culture; even if that’s true, creating a sex-talk vacuum only means that other junk will fill the void. Plus, look at the rates of chlamydia in the US: highest in the deep south, where they loooove abstinence-only-until-marriage ed. Reaaaal effective.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/health-disparities/location.htm
Nuff Megan. You are so hysterically nasty. I just imagine you shrieking at your computer in your den. premarital sex leads to consequences. I do not believe a woman’s worth lies between her legs though you seem to think thats all women can hope for in a relationship. God forbid a woman date a man and expect him to get to know her, romance her, and love her for her. No, women and men should just jump into bed. So much for women’s worth.
And abstinence only education works. You know how many sexual partners I’ve had Megan? One. My husband.
Now you’ll probably pull your hair out over that too.
I’ll repeat what I said for your benefit: “Conversations about respect, gender inequality, and faithfulness are also very important.” Where in that statement, or in anything else that I said, did I suggest that women shouldn’t expect to find love and satisfaction in a premarital relationship? Or that every mutually fulfilling premarital relationship needs sex to function? You’re deliberately twisting what I said.
“You are so hysterically nasty.” Yep, jussittin here with knives out. You know what, maybe I’ll start becoming nasty to fulfill that description. First, weren’t you in this forum a couple days ago complaining about your dysfunctional sex life? Hardly the time to hold your relationship up as a model of marital, sexual bliss. Like I wrote before, it’s pretty sad that we can’t expect unmarried people to treat each other respectfully, and assume that matrimony will change all that. You know what they say: choose wisely.
Megan said.
“Today, late adolescents are just as capable of forming stable relationships, engaging in consensual, mutually fulfilling sex, and using protection.”
Megan, have you ever considered that it is more healthy for a fertile late adolescent to skip sex till they are ready to accept responsibility for the children they may conceive, or do you consider abortion to be included as part of adolescents protection?
Do you consider abortion to be healthy for adolescents? If not then it should be obvious that it is NOT healthy for adolescents to engage in sex. Over 50% of abortions are commited on girls who were using so-called protection.
You know what they say: choose wisely.
Actually, the majority of women who get abortions are in their twenties, a large portion of whom already have children.
And the majority of them were using “protection” when they got pregnant so ‘protection’ isn’t working for these women. Do you think it is healthy for these women to use abortion as birth control?
How healthy are the choices the post-aborts make when they go to Planned Parenthood and lie down on the gurnee and spread their legs and raise up their knees and place their feet into the stirrups and subject themselves to the insertion of foreign objects up through their vagina and into their womb tearing the baby out in bloody pieces. How could it not leave you psychologically and spiritually devasted? Lord have mercy.
Did it turn you on to write that graphic little tirade? And have you thought about how “psychologically and spiritually devastating” it might be for a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?
Once again, another poor attempt to turn the tables Megan. It’s obvious Truthspeaker struck a nerve with you.
You need some psychological and spiritual help to deal with your choice to dismember your child.
Ah, good old Prax, with the tact of a storm trooper. I shudder to think of the poor women at the mercy of your “love and healing and hope” at whichever CPC you’ve deigned to proselytize.
“It’s obvious Truthspeaker struck a nerve with you.”
If you must know, I’m drinking a peppermint hot chocolate while coding survey data from my work. Hardly in tears on the floor, as you try to forcefully infer from the three lines I posted. You might need to take a class in close reading, because you’re failing at it miserably. But anyway, I’ll let you know what would have sent me into psychological and spiritual shock: giving birth to a child I know I couldn’t financially support and placing it in the arms of strangers.
Some interesting facts:
50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).
Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 773 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI).
http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
Good to know dismemberment doesn’t phase you in the least, Megan.
And yet, AMAZINGLY, here you are, trolling a pro-life website. Totally unbothered and carefree about that past abortion. Yup. Totally. Just here to pass the time…
Actually, I was pro-choice before my abortion, and I found a link to this website on RHRealityCheck. I was appalled, of course, especially since JSTank does her darndest to affect widescale policy changes. But the situation became what you would call “personal” after my abortion. I couldn’t just sit back and let the distortions flow freely.
Christmas must be hard for you Megan because it is a time for children and you aborted yours. You’ve been coming across especially shrill the closer we got to the holidays.
giving birth to a child I know I couldn’t financially support
Who are you trying to convince here?
You don’t sound like you’ve ever exactly been destitute. I’m guessing your child also had a father. The courts would have required this man to help support the child. Would your parents honestly never helped you? No friends? No churches in your area? No social services around? The father had no friends or family either?
What are the details surrounding your unplanned pregnancy? Tell me your story and I’ll tell you mine. Then we can compare pity parties to see who had it worse when we became pregnant.
I know you would rather I say what you want to hear, “Oh poor Megan. She’s had such a terrible time of it all. Since life has been rough on her, it’s absolutely OK that she made choices that led to an unplanned pregnancy and then killed her own child. After all, what was she posta do, poor thing?” Ain’t gonna happen.
It’s obvious you come here because it makes you feel better about YOU. Your attempts to rationalize abortion for your own selfish convenience would be laughable if it did not involve actually killing an innocent human. You had an abortion because IT WORKED FOR YOU. That and the fact that you fell for the proabort lies before you even became pregnant.
I’m sorry you are unable to cry over the loss of your child. Crying is not a sign of weakness but rather a sign of strength. You would feel much better if you brought down your guard enough to cry.
In the meantime, enjoy your peppermint hot chocolate.
Megan said, “Did it turn you on to write that graphic little tirade?” No Megan, it was just a visual walk-through from one who has been there. The truth for the benefit/education of those who may be thinking of commiting abortion. Was your experience any different then what I described?
Megan said. “And have you thought about how “psychologically and spiritually devastating” it might be for a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?”
Megan, explain to me why people like you condone adolescent intercourse if the results of unwanted pregnancy are so devastating?
Really? I want pity? No, I want you to shut up and let other people live their lives, and to stop making assumptions about what they feel and think. Adoption would have been harder for me than abortion. And here I’m not even making a moral claim or taking a stance. This is how I feel. And to hear comments about how psychologically damaged I am, or all post-abortive women are, is a tad insulting. And it’s misguided. Is that how you try to win support among women you’re trying to convert, to bully them into believing they’re messed up?
HI Sydney. Yes, Christmas is a time for family, and I’m going home to my parents and sister in two weeks.
I’m a realist, truthseeker, and people are emotionally and physically mature to have sex at late adolescence. That’s why promoting safer sex is important. I support health education that highlights abstinence as the only way to prevent STIs and pregnancy, but I realize that kids who do choose to have sex will be left in the dark if they aren’t provided with accurate information about protection.
I want you to shut up and let other people live their lives
You should know by now that you don’t always get what you want. I’ll shut up when ALL people are allowed to LIVE their lives.
Look good and hard at a child who is the age your child would be now and then have a long, long cry.
After this, you might come to realize who the bully truly is.
Ah Prax, and then what? Repent to you? A lovely service you and your ilk render, truly. I do cry for a lot of things: poverty, AIDS, war. You know, things that dramatically cut short the lives of born humans. I don’t spill tears over six-week-old fetuses, sorry. Do you also mourn the sperm that don’t get to fertilize eggs? Because they’re living, too, you know.
Oh, and I just held my former coach’s six-month-old son in my arms for about an hour. I’m so traumatized right now, I might have to shoot up some heroin.
Do you also mourn the sperm that don’t get to fertilize eggs? Because they’re living, too, you know.
Only, they’re not complete and unique human entities which have fully embarked on their lives like your child growing inside you was. If this is how you rationalize what you have done to yourself, you’re in denial. Anyone with even a 5th grade education can understand the difference between a gestating human being and sperm.
giving birth to a child I know I couldn’t financially support
When do we get the details surrounding how destitute you were when you became pregnant Megan?
I bet former coach bragged up their child to no end. Did you return with bragging about aborting your child?
Do you really not know the difference between sperm cells and egg cells and a fetus? Did you go to public or private school?
Funny how you cut me down for not showing proaborts enough compassion but then you say you don’t want any pity. What can I do for you Megan? You’re mad if I’m mad. You’re mad if I’m sad. Your mad because I see the humanity in your preborn child. You are just plain ol’ mad. I should shutup on a prolife blog because abortion pisses you off and because you want me to? You don’t always get what you want. If your child got what he wanted, he would have been held by someone too.
Please don’t shoot up any heroin. Even though it is your body to do what you want with, I think it is still illegal to shoot heroin into it. Go figure.
When students make statements like you do, they are referred to a counselor. You are crying for help but won’t take that first step.
It IS interesting that those who say they don’t feel sad and don’t care are the ones shouting the loudest. I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince yourself or punish yourself by getting the beating you’re looking for at a site that will never approve of your choices. I don’t know why someone would waste their time if they don’t feel any lack of remorse.
Megan. a realist would say that if an adolescent is not prepared for the possibility of pregnancy then they should not have intercourse with or without protection? Not to mention that a realist would understand that ingesting high doses of hormones over a prolonged period of time will have negative health consequences.
Well, let’s see. If all this nonsense remained a folly of the interweb, then I wouldn’t be so heated. I care because I don’t want those dumb MAAFA21 signs or whatever popping up at my university. I want to walk on campus walk without some nut praying at me, which happens weekly. I want women to have access to reproductive health services, including abortion, and through private insurance plans. I want pregnancy to be a voluntary experience. And I want to stop the dissemination of pseudo-science that links every human calamity to abortion.
I also want you to stop invoking science to resolve what is fundamentally a moral issue. Biology doesn’t make it self-evident that the “right to life” begins at conception, or implantation, or even birth, for that matter. If it were entirely up to biology, or nature, some of us wouldn’t be here right now. In a “complete state of nature,” I’d probably be dead because I have bad eyesight. Go figure. The idea that human beings have the “right to life” is an artifact of civilization. Biology doesn’t say whether we deserve to be here or not; logic and religion do.
Anyway, to clear up something related: the statement “life begins at conception” is actually false, since ”life” is necessary to produce more ”life.” Sperm and eggs are living entities, and it’s possible that some culture somewhere could come to value them as potential life forms to be protected and revered. Taoists believe that masturbation decreases a man’s life-energy; does this not indicate a general belief that sperm is a living entity that must be valued and not wasted?
I’m not suggesting that we start considering sperm and eggs to require the protection of the law. My point is that biology doesnt tell us that a new set of DNA is criteria for entrance into the human community, but that our moral system does.
Xal, you’ve expressed the belief that contraception is “ok.” Do you believe, then, that zygotes are not deserving of protection, even if, say, IUDs prevent them from implanting in the uterine lining? And if not, what part of your fifth grade biology lesson differentiated the relative value of zygotes and embryos?
Megan, Science determines when life begins. Morality determines what value a person places on the lives of others.
Well, Megan, my 5th grade education is a little fuzzy on that. However, my college education tells me first that a.) it’s not a zygote by the time it would implant, but a blastocyst, and b.) that lots of things besides an IUD can keep a blastocyst from implanting, and there’s really no way to tell if one has not. So, once you devise a simple method of doing so, mad scientist-style, we’ll get right on that whole criminalizing contraception thing. But you can’t really actively seek to kill what you cannot directly interact with, and the fact that sometimes even hormonal birth control fails and implantation occurs anyway seems to prove it’s not that big of a deal.
Now, since you seem to believe you have some expertise in the field morality, please tell me if it is any different (and if so, how) to do something which maybe might kinda sorta maaaaaaybe cause someone to pass away by your action even though there is no way to know if that would happen, vs. paying someone to actively go out and murder someone else by chopping them up into bits.
Is there an ethical difference between buying the last loaf of bread before a blizzard that causes other people to starve to death beyond your knowledge and actively going to their home and stabbing them to death?
“EGAD! I was curious and looked up photos of genital warts and Herpes. I literally threw up in my mouth. That is AWFUL. Who would want to even risk that? Is one orgasm worth that? NO WAY!”
Sydney, a majority of people in the US have herpes. Ever seen someone with a cold sore? That’s the same thing. Literally the same thing. HSV-1 and HSV-2 can both be transmitted to the mouth or genitals, FROM the mouth or genitals. This means that every person who is married to someone who has ever had a cold sore, however chaste they were before and in marriage, is at risk for genital (and oral) herpes. Most people get cold sores through rather innocuous means – a kiss from a relative, for example. And most people who carry the herpes virus don’t know they do, in part due to lack of education on the subject (ie, not believing that cold sores are “really” herpes, because we have such wildly disparate cultural reactions to the two subjects – cold sores are “okay” and “normal,” herpes is “gross” and makes you “literally throw up in your mouth”).
Certainly no one would want to risk oral or genital herpes for no reason at all, but most people in the US manage just fine despite being infected with herpes. You wouldn’t ever say, “Gross! I saw this girl at work with a cold sore and it literally made me throw up! That is AWFUL, who would ever want to risk that? Is kissing Aunt Judy at Christmas worth it? NO WAY!” There are reasons not to be promiscuous, but the alarmism over genital herpes and total lack of concern over oral herpes is pretty culturally schizophrenic.
giving birth to a child I know I couldn’t financially support
Megan, still waiting. . . . Since this is the reason you’ve given for aborting your child, I’m still curious about just how destitute you actually were.
I’d also be interested in an answer to truthseeker’s question, “Was your experience any different then what I described?”
Xal: Catholics think contraception is a big deal, and many people on this website don’t use hormonal birth control or IUDs. Their beliefs kind of lay waste to your claim, “But you can’t really actively seek to kill what you cannot directly interact with.” Using contraception=knowing that you could kill developing life. Sure you may not know IF it happens, but the outcome’s the same, no? Maybe manslaughter as opposed to homicide.
Also, I’d be interested in your opinion about Colorado’s “Personhood Begins at Conception” ammendment on their ballot this last election. If it had passed, there could have been restrictions placed not only on abortion, but, say, the morning after pill. How would you feel about rape survivors being denied Plan B out of concern for a blastocyst? After all, it IS developing life. What’s so special about implantation?? At what “magical” point does nascent human life demand your protection?
I’d also be interested in an answer to truthseeker’s question, “Was your experience any different then what I described?”
FWIW, I also found truthseeker’s description gratuitously graphic. We don’t talk at length about women going to the gyn and laying down on the gurney and spreading their legs and raising up their knees and putting their feet into the stirrups when we talk about routine exams, or giving birth, or whatever. Though the details themselves are not shameful, even while they may be uncomfortable or occasionally frightening, we see no need to focus on them and describe them when we consider the women in question to be behaving morally. Yes, it was the brutal and forced removal of the child that was the gist of truthseeker’s paragraph, but Megan objected to the “graphic little tirade” on the whole, and I too found it unnecessary. There is a lot of borderline salacious language used when talking about aborting women and none of it helps get through to the point.
If I were talking about visiting a low-income clinic for routine gynecological care – as I have done before – and someone said, “So did you head to the clinic and climb up onto that table and spread your legs and lift your knees up and shiver just a bit as you put your feet into those cold stirrups, and flinch at the duck lips, and subject yourself to the insertion of foreign objects into your vagina, and let the doctor look at you?” I would consider the person a bit unhinged, and I’d consider anyone who said, “Well, it was just a question, from one who knows – so was your experience any different than that?” to be disingenuous. Megan had an abortion. If truthseeker wants to question the health of those making that decision, it is certainly possible to do so without such a graphic focus on the intimate and morally-neutral details of a woman receiving any gynecological care at all.
Haay Prax. I’m curious: what could possibly be so edifying about prying out intimate details of MY life? Do you want an excuse to fist-pound your closest pro-life crony? I’m also not sure when “destitution” became the only legitimate reason for not wanting to parent a child, but whatever. I put myself through school, and heck if I have the resources to be a parent at this point. That’s all I’ll say about that.
So how ’bout we talk about YOUR life circumstances, Prax. Tell us how hard it was for YOU, because I know you’re dying to share. How much struggle did you endure to have your children? How happy are you now that you made all those sacrifices?
At what “magical” point does nascent human life demand your protection?
From the time you know it’s there and can do anything to help it. But you’re changing the subject. I hope you understand that there IS a huge difference between being inhospitable and actively seeking to kill someone.
Of course there’s a difference, and our criminal justice system treats it as such. Manslaughter vs. homicide. But again, the outcome’s still the same.
“From the time you know it’s there and can do anything to help it.”
That doesn’t seem very scientific, not very hard-and-fast. Sounds like something you pulled from your own moral code, in fact. Colorado Personhood 62: “Embryology is very clear about the beginning of life: the beginning of life (under normal sexual reproduction) takes place when the sperm touches the ovum.” So in xalisase-land, life may begin at conception, may be a “unique and complete human entity,” but since we never KNOW if they’re there or not, they don’t demand human rights?
…life may begin at conception, may be a “unique and complete human entity,” but since we never KNOW if they’re there or not, they don’t demand human rights?
I didn’t say that. There’s just no way that one could guarantee it. Plus, pregnancy tests are pretty scientific.
But hey, if you want me to alter my stance to include zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos, fine. You do a great job of standing up for preborn human lives, Megan. Too bad you failed so horrifically with that of your own child.
Hi Alexandra,
I didn’t see truthseeker’s description as gratuitously graphic.
I believe her description is called for in light of the conversation we are having and because of the end result of what some in our country call ‘choice’, that being dead human beings. Many prolifers support the use of photos depicting aborted humans as well and I don’t see them as unhinged either but rather as heroes fighting for the LIVES of others.
I see trying to protect all humans as good ground to describe an abortion in some detail. After re-reading truthseeker’s description of abortion and then yours of an exam, I found your description quite a bit more detailed. Couldn’t you just have explained why you disagree rather than going into details? You actually just repeated what you yourself complained about. That said, there is a difference between health care and abortion. Gynecological exams are morally-neutral and nonviolent. The same cannot be said of abortion.
The bottom line is, Megan has no interest in answering questions but wants to continue to argue, divert, turn tables on and blame prolifers. It is easier on her fragile ego to point her finger at the prolife movement. She doesn’t realize that every time she does so, she has three fingers pointing back at her.
Thanks truthseeker for witnessing for life. I shed tears along with you and all females who have been lied to and abused by the proabort movement all in the name of human rights.
The proabort movement is unhinged indeed.
How happy are you now that you made all those sacrifices?
I have received back much, much more from my children than I’ve ever personally had to sacrifice for them Megan. I call this Love and and it is Unconditional. I don’t only love my children if they can do something for me. I Love Them Always No Matter What.
I can’t imagine being any happier until the day I meet Christ face to face. After all, He made a Big Sacrifice for me too.
Xal: “But hey, if you want me to alter my stance to include zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos, fine.”
I have my beliefs, and I’m asking you to clarify yours. It’s funny that
you constantly invoke science to explain your moral beliefs, yet
the ambiguity remains. If you believe that a unique human life begins at
conception, then hormonal contraception should be tantamount to
manslaughter. The fact is that you feel less strongly about zygotes and
blastocysts than you do implanted embryos and fetuses. Is it because
they’re further along in development? Why should that matter, if all life
is sacred and in need of protection? See, you ask me to clarify this matter
all.the.time. Every other post someone asks me why it would be okay to
have an abortion but not okay to kill a two-year-old. They ask me where
the line is drawn (and I say: when a mother’s body is no longer housing
this life). You need to do the same.
Prax: If my ego were fragile, I would have left this forum loong ago. I am very
interested in answering questions, though I think the intimate details of the
medical procedure’s I’ve undergone is privileged information. But let’s do
some sharing, fine. Yes, my abortion was exactly how Truthseeker described it
to be. Got the visual? But I also spent an hour talking to a counselor
beforehand, as I had also done the week previously. We discussed my
options. She asked me about my life, my partner, my family. She asked me if
I was there of my own volition. I asked about adoption, and she gave me
information about local resources. I got an ultrasound and asked the nurse to
see it. It was a very involved process, I’ll have to tell you that. But in the end,
I made the decision that was right for me. And no, I wasn’t in hysterics,
dragged off to the operating room. The nurse prepared me for what was going
to happen, and they talked to me during the procedure. They asked me
before it began if I was still willing to go through with the abortion. I was.
Got all that? Now it’s your turn. When you gave birth, did they give you an
epidural? Did you want medication? Did they split you open like a fish, or
did you give birth vaginally? Or maybe you had an episiotomy?? If so, how
intact is your rectal wall right now? Is your sex life still functioning? Do you
have scars??
Alexandra,
Submitting yourself to the abortionist by putting your body in a position where the abortionist CAN reach in and kill your baby is a psychologically devastating part of the experience. Submitting yourself to a doctor to protect the your health or the health of same baby is uncomfortable but would not carry any of those same psychological scars cause you are not participating in the murder of your child.
When you gave birth, did they give you an
epidural? No
Did you want medication? No
Did they split you open like a fish, or
did you give birth vaginally? Vaginally
Or maybe you had an episiotomy?? Yes
If so, how intact is your rectal wall right now? Same as before I gave birth
Is your sex life still functioning? Yes
Do you have scars??
Yes. One small physical scar from an episiotomy.
No emotional, mental or spiritual scars.
“You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.”
– C.S. Lewis
FYI Praxedes I am a male. Our five month old baby had died in the womb and I was with my wife when she went through this procedure.
Truthseeker,
I’m sorry your wife had to go through that. But it’s obviously a different situation from the one I went through. Your wife intended to give birth. I didn’t.
Truthseeker, My heart goes out to both you and your wife at the loss of your child. Thanks for being an outspoken male witness to Life. I am so fortunate to be married to a prolife man who was my rock during the loss of our child at two months. Our first ultrasound was the day before, we saw his heartbeat and everything looked fine.
But it’s obviously a different situation from the one I went through.
There are some differences between truthseeker’s and your situation Megan but the fact remains that you both lost a child.
Megan, perhaps you didn’t intend to become pregnant but once pregnant you did participate in a birth. The truth is that you chose a birthing process, though premature, that was designed to kill the baby during delivery. Many women choose abortion cause they do not feel strong enough to raise a baby or because the father is not supportive. Many are also fed lies about the baby not being human yet or not being sentient etc in order to manipulate the mother into devaluing the life of the baby growing inside of them. Know that many of us share sorrow for your loss also.
I see trying to protect all humans as good ground to describe an abortion in some detail. After re-reading truthseeker’s description of abortion and then yours of an exam, I found your description quite a bit more detailed. Couldn’t you just have explained why you disagree rather than going into details? You actually just repeated what you yourself complained about.
Do you not understand that I was putting the exact same words into a different context, to demonstrate how unnecessarily graphic they are? Describe an abortion in graphic detail if you’re talking about abortion, fine – it certainly has its place. But the very morally-neutral (yet still uncomfortable) details surrounding the abortion are unnecessary and IMO a bit of a raised eyebrow is not out of place when being asked that sort of question.
Now, truthseeker says that laying down on a gyn’s table for an abortion may be different than laying down on a gyn’s table for an exam – fine. I don’t really see how – obviously an abortion is different than an exam, but the laying down on the table etc is not – but that at least is an excuse for such gratuitous imagery.
Alexandra,
Though the physical actions are the same in both instances, what you think about each persons performing those actions can be complete opposites. In one a woman is performing the actions to protect the life of her child. In the other a woman is performing the actions to facilitate the death of her child. These experiences are not just different because the end result. The act of opening your legs for the abotionist is also a comletely different experience then opening your legs for a gynecologist. Each step along the way is different. I find it incredulous that you are either unwilling or unable to see the difference.
Alexandra,
Driving yourself to an abortion mill is a completely experience then driving yourself to a doctor for a well baby check-up even if you drive down the same streets to get there. Put yourself in the shoes of a woman who who would not be considering subjecting themselve to this horror if they were say financially better off or if the father were more supportive; the repercussions can be devastating.
Alexandra, I do realize that cold sores are caused by a Herpes virus. However, most cold sores are not from illicit sexual activity (though my doc said more and more people are spreading cold sores from mouth to genitals and vice versa because or the rise in oral sex, especially in kids)
That being said, just seeing sores all over someone’s genitals did make me want to throw up. Sorry you’re trying to police my reaction to it but it was mine and I was sharing it. If you want to go bang every dude in the world and contract Herpes go right ahead, I however stand by my statement that STD’s are gross and no orgasm in the world (though I do greatly enjoy them) would be worth a crotch full of burning sores. Thanks for your lecture though.
And also, my friend’s mom got Herpes. After she left her husband she started screwing around with a 24 year old guy (she was much much older) and he gave her Herpes! Ask her if she thinks its no big deal. Trust me, having talked to her myself, she is upset and when they erupt in great great pain.
Alexandra, I do realize that cold sores are caused by a Herpes virus. However, most cold sores are not from illicit sexual activity (though my doc said more and more people are spreading cold sores from mouth to genitals and vice versa because or the rise in oral sex, especially in kids)
Cold sores are caused by THE herpes virus – the same two strains that causes genital herpes. And yes, cold sores can spread the herpes virus to genitals – thus even within the confines of a chaste marriage, genital and oral herpes are both distinct possibilities.
If you want to go bang every dude in the world and contract Herpes go right ahead
What a charming comeback. I have been in a monogamous relationship with my first boyfriend for over 5 years now.
I am not saying that herpes are no big deal – or any STI. And I’m not trying to police your reaction. I am asking if you would say, “OMG today I saw a guy with a cold sore and I threw up!!” or if you’d consider that tactless and cruel. Odds are, lots of people reading and even commenting at this site have herpes. Unless you’ve been tested for the antibodies, you stand a good chance of having the virus yourself. It’s not a lecture – just a fact.
Cold sores are caused by THE herpes virus – the same two strains that causes genital herpes. And yes, cold sores can spread the herpes virus to genitals – thus even within the confines of a chaste marriage, genital and oral herpes are both distinct possibilities.
This is true. Happened to a good friend of mine, sadly.
“But anyway, I’ll let you know what would have sent me into psychological and spiritual shock: giving birth to a child I know I couldn’t financially support and placing it in the arms of strangers.”
So, what you are saying Megan is that it was easier to kill your baby then it would have been to allow him/her to continue to live until birth & be adopted by people who want a child.
One thing is certain Megan, “Prax” (as you say) knows the answers to her questions. All you are left with is what might have been.
Hi Rebecca,
In a word, yes, but you need to bring yourself to understand that I never thought of my pregnancy as a “child.” Not at six weeks. You can debate to the death whether I had been poisoned by the “pro-abort mentality,” or was under some kind of false consciousness, but it’s a moot point because a) that’s how I felt at the time and b) it.is.over. If you can’t take my word for it that I have no regrets, then on what basis can you judge the statements and actions of other people? Would I ever look at a mother and say, “Well, you were duped by the pro-life movement, you secretly regret having those kids?” It would be different if I were like Carla, say and came forward regretting it all. Her experience must be respected, as mine should be.
And you know, there are also lots of things in life that “might have been,” but it doesn’t do much good to dwell on them. At some point in life you could have been pregnant and didn’t know it and flushed it out of your system. You could have barely missed a car accident while driving to work yesterday. Who knows.
Also, I’m left with the life I love and appreciate and find quite fulfilling, actually. Sure, things are different–I’m not arguing that. The unthinkable happened! But I’d say at the end of the day, I have a greater appreciation for my family and friends, personal liberty, self-determination and the country that has enshrined these values in law.
“But I’d say at the end of the day, I have a greater appreciation for my family and friends, personal liberty, self-determination and the country that has enshrined these values in law.”
Megan, Has your abortive experience caused you to have a greater appreciation for all life or just your own? I would have thought your experience would have given you a greater respect for life.
“The unthinkable happened!”
Megan, I assume that you have learned a lot since then and now know you could get pregnant. Question: Have you learned enough where you would never put yourself in the position where you would engage in consentual sex and abort again?
Kel,
Like you said earlier, “47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI).” That means for every woman who has had an abortion there are just as many who have had two. Could it be low self esteem that ends up placing little to no value in the life of their offspring?
Hi again Truthseeker,
Well, I say “the unthinkable” because this all happened the day before I had made an appointment at PP to get a copper IUD. Bitter irony, no? I’m sure you’ll think so. But anyway, I am relying on a long-acting, reversible form of birth control PLUS condom use within a monogamous relationship. I’m confident that I won’t be getting pregnant any time soon, but who knows: nothing is ever impossible. If I were to get pregnant again, I am not sure if I would get an abortion. I never did want to have my own children, always been more interested in adoption. It all depends on my life circumstances at the time. If I could support a baby and felt physically and emotionally ready to do so, I might go with that option. I’m not ruling out the possibility that I could change my mind, but if I didn’t feel prepared, I probably wouldn’t hesitate to get an abortion.
Hope that answers your question.
“Low self-esteem.”
This could possibly be a factor. Some women might feel like they’d be completely incompetent or terrible mothers. But I wouldn’t confuse “low self-esteem” with a woman’s honest assessment of her social, financial, and physical situations, and the recognition that having a child would place undue strain and stress on them.
Megan,
When you said:
“But I wouldn’t confuse “low self-esteem” with a woman’s honest assessment of her social, financial, and physical situations, and the recognition that having a child would place undue strain and stress on them.” Did you mean that having a child would place undue strain on you, or undue strain on your child?
Megan, Your story makes no sense at all. Explain to me how you say you had made an appointment to get an IUD (which means you knew you could get pregnant) and still claim that ”the unthinkable” happened? Was it Planned Parenthood who advised you that all you needed was the appointment to be protected?
“But I wouldn’t confuse “low self-esteem” with a woman’s honest assessment”
Megan, when you start being able to express an honest assesment of yourself I will do my best not to confuse it with low self-esteem.
Well since I can’t be trusted to do so for myself, why don’t YOU provide an assessment of my life situation for me? Go on, I’d like to hear it. Piece together all the clues to my life I’ve left scattered (or clustered, in some instances) on this blog and write up a report. 500 words, minimum.
By the way, I was being sarcastic when I used the phrase, “the unthinkable.” Yes, I know I know, I was engaging in illicit sex. The horrah! But it might throw a wrench in your hard-and-fast rules about morality and abstinence and whatnot if I tell you that I do not want to become pregnant. Probably never, and I’m not certain if this situation will change if I get married. What’s the solution for someone like me, to never experience sexual intimacy with a long-term partner?
Also, to clarify again: strain on the life situation, including relationships, finances, physical and mental health. All of it.
Megan,
Don’t confuse strain with stress. Start reducing your stress level dramatically by confronting difficult issues. You could start by responding honestly to yourself and to others, especially at the times when you want to be sarcastic.
Oy, what to do with you, truthseeker? Seems like you haven’t come here to have a dialogue, but to engage in some kind of thinly-veiled exchange of insults. Let’s unpack this latest comment a bit, shall we? What, exactly, produces such a visceral response in you? Do you feel the same way about barrier contraceptive methods, like condoms?
What did I say that you took as an insult?
Did that comment I posted and changed about copper IUD’s end up being posted before I changed it? The only thing I have said tonight that I felt was insulting at all was when I asked you “Megan, Has your abortive experience caused you to have a greater appreciation for all life or just your own?” I felt bad about that when I realized that it could be just the opposite, low self-esteem, that causes a woman to feel unable to cope with pregnancy. And to answer your question about “barrier” contraceptives; I have only used a condom ONCE in my entire life, so it would be safe to say it didn’t sit well with me. lol
Well, good for you, and I don’t feel it’s my place to say, oh, disdain for contraception is backwards. or something nasty like that.
Megan, explain to me why you think sex without contraception is nasty?
If I were to get pregnant again, I am not sure if I would get an abortion. I never did want to have my own children, always been more interested in adoption.
So, having your own babies is bad – to the point of killing them before birth – but adopting someone else’s baby whom they did NOT abort is good? Well, guess what? You DID have one of your own, Megan. That child is now deceased.
It all depends on my life circumstances at the time. If I could support a baby and felt physically and emotionally ready to do so, I might go with that option. I’m not ruling out the possibility that I could change my mind, but if I didn’t feel prepared, I probably wouldn’t hesitate to get an abortion.
So, what, you wouldn’t consider placing your OWN child for adoption?
I’m sorry, Megan, but I have to say you really need some help. You seem like one heck of a confused individual.
Hi Kel. My six-week-old fetus is deceased, that is true. I think you need to get it in your head that I do not ever want to be pregnant. I don’t feel a personal calling to further my genes or use my body to produce a child. I believe there are already too many kids in the world who already need help and decent homes, and I feel that it would be fundamentally selfish for me to have a child of my own.
And for all the babies you’ve had, I must say that you are quite a belligerent poster here. Are YOU all that happy?
Hi Truthseeker,
I’m not sure how old you are, but I think you’re probably old enough to read carefully. I think it is backwards to disdain use of contraception, since not every couple is in the position to support a child potentially conceived every time they have sex; this statement much different than having contempt for sex without contraception.
” I believe there are already too many kids in the world who already need help and decent homes, and I feel that it would be fundamentally selfish for me to have a child of my own.”
“Also, to clarify again: strain on the life situation, including relationships, finances, physical and mental health. All of it.”
If you would just look honestly at your very own posts you would admit that killing your ‘fetus’ because of the “social and financial stress” he/she could cause YOU is NOT a selfless act.
Megan, what is backwards is a woman who has disdain for the life growing inside her.
And for all the babies you’ve had, I must say that you are quite a belligerent poster here. Are YOU all that happy?
“All” the babies? I have 3. Not exactly the Brady Bunch here, not that there’s anything wrong with that. :D
And yeah, I’m pretty hard-headed when it comes to what I strongly believe in. Call it belligerent if you want. I think killing unborn children is pretty heinous.
I think you need to get it in your head that I do not ever want to be pregnant. I don’t feel a personal calling to further my genes or use my body to produce a child. I believe there are already too many kids in the world who already need help and decent homes, and I feel that it would be fundamentally selfish for me to have a child of my own.
If you want to know what I really think, Megan, it’s this: if you don’t want children, PERIOD, EVER, then you could always get your tubes tied. Please stop killing babies. That’s all. That really IS your body and your choice. You already produced a child. You killed that child. Your child was already in the world, in existence, in your womb, and you chose to end his or her life. What you did was completely and wholly selfish, and robbed another human of his/her life. The fact is that you were willing to kill off a child and yet now you present yourself as “unselfish” because you chose to do so. That has to be the ultimate in psychological gymnastics.
Having children (or rather, simply allowing them to be born) is not a selfish act. We all know sex frequently results in babies. It’s called human reproduction, and it isn’t a selfish act. It’s quite natural. And I agree with TS. Your reasons for aborting that you’ve given (up until now, when you’ve mentioned adoption) have been solely for your own self-preservation.
The only one you’re fooling here is you.
Wow!! Did someone say psychological gymanstics? I call it the liberal mind-bending technique. lol
I know this is very hard for you to wrap your head around, but I did not consider my pregnancy to be a child. So no, I wasn’t willing to kill of a “child,” but a six-week-old fetus. Crucial distinction and very little “gymnastics” involved. And obviously my motives were partly selfish. That’s life, that’s “natural.” If I had a baby, my life and my child’s life would be pretty crappy (and NO, I wouldn’t have my parents’ support on this one), and I personally couldn’t live with putting a child up for adoption. Self-preservation, how HEINOUS. And if you think having babies is an unqualifiedly selfLESS act, then you’re sorely mistaken. People have babies for all kinds of reasons: to keep their relationships together, to bear sons who can inherit the family farm, out of a feeling of obligation to an embryo or fetus. And when people realize they can’t actually take care of a baby, they neglect them, abuse them, leave them on a street corner somewhere. Selfishness abounds.
Think what you want, Megan. If it helps you to believe everyone who bears a child to term is selfish, neglectful, unfeeling, abusive, and in a rotten relationship, then go right ahead.
When you took the life of your unborn child (yeah, your offspring, biologically), insisting on how “crappy” your life would be (looking into your all-knowing crystal ball, no doubt), you were not preserving yourself from certain death or from a life-threatening condition. You took another human life, one that did not imminently threaten your life (I’m not speaking “WAY of life” here, I’m speaking about your LIFE), you did so not in self-defense but because you didn’t want to have that life disrupt your sex life and school/work life in any way. Self-preservation, if done for reasons outside of actual self-defense, at the cost of other human lives, is most definitely heinous.
Lots of women give birth. Lots of women have no parental support. Lots of women have low income. Lots of women do things that might be personally unpleasant for them, which change the course of their lives. I know, I know… their lives are probably just total crap and they probably had those babies just so they could keep the men who didn’t pay for their abortions, right?
There are some things we cannot control. You didn’t control your fertility in any way here, Megan. You killed a human being. The world may be a selfish place, but we’re supposed to grow up and begin to rise above our own narcissism at some point in order to become healthy individuals.
Oh, and btw, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that “I couldn’t BEAR to give a child up for adoption” line soooo many times, I’d be rich. I could adopt a whole lotta kids and have a Duggar family of my own. Killing a child because you couldn’t bear to give a child to another childless couple to raise is a sure sign of a conflicted mind – one which has to keep coming to a pro-life blog, defending itself, insisting that 6 week fetus was somehow NOT a human child. I don’t know when you think a human child magically becomes a human child, but biology doesn’t have to guess.
Your argument should be so convincing that you don’t need to deliberately skew my words. You just end up making yourself look brutish and stupid. DUH, people have kids for selfish reasons, and their children can end up living miserable lives as a result. It’s important to acknowledge it. Women who have kids they don’t really want aren’t martyrs. Enough of this, “They chose life, they brought new life into the world, how selfless” crap. What counts is rising above circumstances to RAISE a child well, to give it one’s best effort. Bringing a child into the world and then neglecting the child is not doing anyone any good.
And I come to this website to point out the terrible inconsistencies of the type of self-righteous jerks who parade around this town and preach the evils of abortion while undercutting social services like Medicaid, which help women have the babies they do want. The same people who try to enact policy changes which can affect the lives of women everywhere. That’s why I’m here, not to try and justify my life choices. Believe me, if I wanted to confess my sins and lift the weight off my chest or something, the last place I’d come would be to this group of jackals.
Oh, and the disingenuous invocation of science: biology says the statement “life begins at conception” is a fallacy, since life must be begotten by…life. So no, “life” doesn’t begin at conception. And two, biology doesn’t tell us whether the unborn have the right to live off their mother’s bodies until they’re born. Morality and ethics do. In fact, if it were up to biology and nature, most of us wouldn’t even be here right now.
You know what else people claim is dictated by biology? RAPE.
http://bound4life.com/blog/2010/12/08/is-pregnancy-a-form-of-slavery
Biology tells us that a uterus has one purpose: to house a newly created, developing human being until birth.
Life begets life, of course. A sperm and egg are alive. However, when the gametes fuse, a NEW organism comes into being. A NEW human life, distinct in DNA from his/her mother and father.
Calling science disingenuous is pretty desperate, don’t you think, Megan? :D
The unborn live in the uterus and “off their mother’s bodies” because they are the result of sexual reproduction. What do you not understand about basic human design? Painting a picture of a growing human being as nothing more than a parasite shows your true colors. Please explain to me how the most moral, ethical thing to do is to kill an innocent human being who had no CHOICE in its own creation. Seriously, the hoops pro-choicers have to jump through. The more I read your posts, the more I believe you have a deep dislike of humanity in general. Yes, there are bad mothers out there, and bad fathers. But that does not give human beings the right to kill off other human beings. We live in an imperfect world. Killing off the most innocent and vulnerable is not going to improve the state of the world.
FYI, that’s the first I’ve ever heard you mention Medicaid, too. Adoption and now Medicaid. What future mysteries about Megan’s “true reasons” for trolling this website will Megan’s posts reveal? Guess we should stay tuned…
Please do let me know, by the way, when the unborn begin raping their mothers.
Maybe if you paid attention, you’d see that I stand for things that actually help women care for the children they have and WANT to have. I try and point out the lies in the conservative rhetoric, where people think donating a few baby clothes to the local CPC is the panacea to the problem of poverty and unwanted childbearing.
I also understand plenty about “basic human design.” Still doesn’t explain why the “right to life” should be privileged over the mother’s interests NOT to bear a child. I think it’s most ethical to let people do what they want with their bodies. And yes, denying a woman access to abortion and forcing her to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term would be tantamount to rape in my eyes. If hadn’t had access to abortion, I would have felt raped. What does it mean to be a person, then, if our bodies can be conscripted so that others may live? I don’t care if a woman “chose” to have sex or not. If I agree to donate you a kidney and then change my mind on the operating table, nobody has the right to force me down and carve the organ out of my body, even if it means you will die.
Your logic is screwy. Undercutting a woman’s right to bodily sovereignty and self-determination means that nobody has this right. What principle prevents us from shackling people into slavery, or raping women en masse a la Sabines to populate a country?
Wow. Feminist thinking at its best. Your situation is nothing like rape- even if you carried your child to term- and that is an insult to those women who really have been raped. You engaged in sex, got pregnant willingly, although unplanned, and had an abortion. When are people going to start taking personal responsibility for their actions instead of always acting like the victim?
If there had been laws in place, like there are throughout the world, that had made it impossible for me to access a safe and legal abortion, than yes. It would have been like rape.
When are people going to start taking personal responsibility for their actions, hah! Let’s start saying that to obese people. No we won’t give you cholesterol-lowering medication or perform bypass surgery–you shouldn’t have eaten all those cheeseburgers! Or: you didn’t get vaccinated for meningitis and now you’re sick with it? Tough luck!
Medicine should be blind to the circumstances of illness. Its responsibility is to treat people, not to make moral judgments. Abortion should be no different.
Except that if I eat 5 cheeseburgers at lunch, it doesn’t kill someone else.
What about drunk driving laws? What second-hand smoking laws? What about not hunting near residential areas?
Megan, you and your sex partner made decisions that led to the conception of a human being. Neither of you were raped. You both knew how humans are made.
You did not want your child to intrude in your life in any way and you could not bear to give him/her to someone else who would not see him/her as an intrusion but rather as gift and blessing. So you paid someone to kill him/her.
Now you come here to argue with others that disagree with your choice to kill your offspring.
If being responsibility for your actions includes killing those who don’t fit into your big plans, then you are one responsible human, Megan.
Praxedes nailed it.
If I agree to donate you a kidney and then change my mind on the operating table, nobody has the right to force me down and carve the organ out of my body, even if it means you will die.
Did you watch the video I linked to above? It addresses this very thing.
I try and point out the lies in the conservative rhetoric, where people think donating a few baby clothes to the local CPC is the panacea to the problem of poverty and unwanted childbearing.
We know a CPC cannot, by itself, solve all the problems of unplanned pregnancy. It does, in a way, really take a village to help raise a child, and it is in the community’s best interest to do so.
But here’s the thing: those mothers who come to the CPC and receive those clothes know that they are not alone and they receive help from people who care about them and their children. They know that the support they didn’t get from their parents or friends when they chose not to abort can be found at the CPCs. You haven’t ever been to a CPC in need of food, diapers, or baby clothes for your children, Megan. All you see is your blind hatred for the fact that these places believe life is the best choice for all unborn children and their mothers. I have seen their faces. I have held them and hugged them and prayed with them and helped them find jobs and resources in the community to help them become the best parents they can be.
And what do you offer? How have you helped women? What you have to offer is a load of excrement in comparison to this.
You come to a pro-life site and pretend that abortion IS the panacea to the problem of poverty and unwanted childbearing. Tell that to the countries in Eastern Europe, or just pick a place on the planet. Abortion does not solve anything. Abortion kills unborn humans. And as pro-aborts are so fond of saying, abortion’s been around a loooong time and yet, somehow, it hasn’t solved all the social ills it promised to solve.
“…What does it mean to be a person, then, if our bodies can be conscripted so that others may live?…”
Except that you’re looking past the paramount with this argument. You’re not considering custody and relation. You phrase your words as though it’s some random stranger that this need is attached to, which couldn’t be father from the truth. If it was just some random person, your argument would be flawless, but this is one’s child we are talking about, and considering that by default one has custody of one’s child and is therefore accountable for that child’s well-being, it is a parent’s obligation to see to it that one’s child is well and taken care of…and not killed.
Yes, even by law. What a bunch of mean slave masters that make me work just to give over resources that I NEED and I WANT to some ungrateful little parasite just sponging off of me! See the correlation here yet?
Abortion is the only case which ignores this fact of the rules of our society. Let’s try to get it set straight soon.
Hm Kel, is this going to devolve into a shouting match where we list off all the charities we’ve donated to or non-profits we’ve been involved in? I assure you my list is at least comparable to yours, minus the praying, and perhaps a bit less circumscribed. See, you deal with women who WANT to have children. The story’s a little different when the mother of one of the kids you’ve been teaching math to says, “Please don’t bring him back to me,” completely straight-faced. No love in that face whatsoever. And what if she gets pregnant again, yet can’t afford an abortion? Some life she’s going to have, her kids are going to have. Sorry Kel, but these aren’t issues you can pray away, and I don’t see too many pro-lifers (or pro-choicers, for that matter) adopting from the foster care system.
Megan, Answer the following questions.
What did you say to the woman who told you “Please don’t bring him back to me?
Did you take a personal interest in helping her with care for her child?
About how old was this child?
Do you think that society would be better off if she had aborted that child?
No love in that face whatsoever.
Did she see love in yours. Did you tell her you would do what you could to help her and that you would get through it together?
Well said, Praxedes.
Megan, tell your could-have-been sob story to a group of women who have been raped and see how well they receive you. The willing can’t be raped and you were willing to have sex. Just not willing to deal with the consequences of that sex. I suppose if I eat all those cheeseburgers and then get big and fat and suffer health problems I can also say I was raped by being trapped in the situation I willed myself into. It’s laughable to use the word “rape” in such a twisted and loose way.
I love how pro choicers like yourself take the role of both victim and person in control. You want to be in control of every choice over your body, but fail to even have the proper self control and responsibility in the first place and then think abortion is a justified way to manage the problem you got into. Do you see how this leaves you out of control? Without real choices? Without real freedom?
I know, I know. You think you exercised your right and you feel empowered and free. What an oxymoron.
The story’s a little different when the mother of one of the kids you’ve been teaching math to says, “Please don’t bring him back to me,” completely straight-faced. No love in that face whatsoever. And what if she gets pregnant again, yet can’t afford an abortion? Some life she’s going to have, her kids are going to have.
Yeah, you’re right. I guess they should all just blow their brains out, ‘cuz their crap sucks, amirite? Please. If having a crappy life is justification for killing people, then almost no one would be on Earth right now. Suck it up, buttercup, and put the cannula down before anyone else gets hurt.
I am still on the fence with Megan’s growing story. A lot of PP trolls use pre-defined personna of talking points. When you can ask them to answer specific questions about things that are NOT pre-defined it forces them to go outside their pre-defined character and they usually fall apart. I won’t hold my breath wait for her answers…..
Hm Kel, is this going to devolve into a shouting match where we list off all the charities we’ve donated to or non-profits we’ve been involved in?
No, but you attacked CPCs, and you’ve never been to one, unless it’s to try and “expose” the “heinous” acts they do there.
And what if she gets pregnant again, yet can’t afford an abortion? Some life she’s going to have, her kids are going to have. Sorry Kel, but these aren’t issues you can pray away, and I don’t see too many pro-lifers (or pro-choicers, for that matter) adopting from the foster care system.
We do not pray away issues. We pray for the strength to stand in whatever circumstance we face. We pray for God to reveal Himself in our circumstances. There’s a difference. Yeah, I know this is all just crap to you, but you’re a bitter individual and I don’t expect you to understand actual compassion anyway.
People need to start taking some personal responsibility for their own actions. Do you understand that concept? Personal responsibility? The path we choose is one step and then the next. With one poor choice, our life can take a wrong turn and we find ourselves later with two kids by two different daddies, as a single mom on welfare, working a couple jobs, sleeping with some other guy who likely won’t stick around. That’s not empowerment. That’s being enslaved to a lifestyle. But go ahead and blame pro-lifers for the situation and blame society when it won’t adopt all her children… even though, of COURSE, we can’t possibly tell her that her choice of lifestyle is to blame for her situation.
See, I didn’t grow up in a 2 parent home in a pretty little situation, either, Megan. But I did have a mom who made better choices than the ones I see being made by so many women today. The problem is not just their poverty of wealth. It’s poverty of behavior.
Truthseeker – yeah, I agree. The story add-ons are sounding more and more contrived all the time.
“If having a crappy life is justification for killing people, then almost no one would be on Earth right now.”
Um, countries use the “crappy life” excuse for killing people all the time. It’s called “imperialism,” or “war.” And there are more than a few warmongers among the pro-life set, people who’ve perfectly reconciled that our country was/is bombing Iraqi civilians while their churchgoing cronies crusade at the local PP for the plight of unborn babies. Huzzuh? Also, nice of you to duck back into the room after your logical inconsistency’s been pointed out, and presumably forgotten about. Again: you say a new human life begins at conception, but deem hormonal contraception to be perfectly acceptable–an inconsistency most hard-line Catholics would see as a grave hypocrisy. When does developing human life deserve your attention and support? When does life magically merit the protection of law? See, you implying that embryos are less valuable than fetuses is not that much different than me saying that fetuses are less worthy of protection than born children. Except that I have a reason for my assertion: the potential conflicting interests of woman and unborn child, the fact that the unborn child is living inside her body. You, on the other hand, have less justification for your point. Human life merits protection, “From the time you know it’s there and can do anything to help it.” Preeeeetttttty vague. And OC can prevent a blastocyst from attaching to the uterine lining, so we can “do anything to help it” by NOT taking OCs. Right?
Using contraception can be an act of responsibility. And choosing abortion is, too. If a woman doesn’t feel physically, financially, or emotionally capable of bringing a pregnancy to term and either raising a child or handing it over to strangers to raise, then it’s not anyone else’s position to tell her to “suck it up.” You can give a woman resources, point her in the direction of community support, but at the end of the day, it’s her decision to make. And if she chooses abortion, she’s taken responsibility for her situation by not bringing a child she doesn’t want into the world. Done and done.
If you want me to send you my resume, Truthseeker, would you be satisfied? I’m not going to get involved in some kind of contest about who’s done the most for their respective communities, but you can go ahead. List off all the abortion clinics you’ve prayed at over the last five years if it’s edifying somehow to you.
Using contraception can be an act of responsibility. And choosing abortion is, too. If a woman doesn’t feel physically, financially, or emotionally capable of bringing a pregnancy to term and either raising a child or handing it over to strangers to raise, then it’s not anyone else’s position to tell her to “suck it up.”
Ok, first off, I am now certain you really don’t support adoption, even though you’ve said you want to adopt a child one day. People who use the phrase “handing it over to strangers to raise” clearly have no clue about adoption or the process and have a disdain for it. You even had a disdain for it when it came to your “choice” to kill your unborn child. What if one day YOU were the “stranger” who wanted to raise someone else’s child?
And if she chooses abortion, she’s taken responsibility for her situation by not bringing a child she doesn’t want into the world. Done and done.
Responsibility? So, killing one’s child is now “taking responsibility?”
Done. Right. Well, one life is done, that’s for certain. The other life is just left a narcissistic mess, obviously.
“bringing a pregnancy to term”
And there are the magic words. Once a woman is pregnant, she has conscious control over what happens or does not happen to her growing child, and being responsible shifts from avoiding what might happen to caring for a child which is the result of what has already happened. The reason I feel birth control is ok is the same reason it’d be absurd to penalize a sexually active woman for drinking caffeine or exercising during the fertile part of her cycle. Until a woman has actually become pregnant, there’s very little action she can take on her part. If a man has sired a child by a woman, but doesn’t even know about the child’s existence for reasons beyond his control, he couldn’t very well be charged with anything should something happen to the kid he knows nothing about. Same situation here. Women who want to be pregnant can’t will a blastocyst to implant, just like a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant can’t exert force of will and flush one out. Once a pregnancy has occurred, the woman has to take explicit action to willingly kill her human child which has already been set on an unalterable path of its life in order to stop that. Anything prior to that is just dealing in hypotheticals, and it’d be absurd to attempt to punish someone for something that might have happened but which there is no way to prove.
X, 2:16 – well put.
“Once a pregnancy has occurred, the woman has to take explicit action to willingly kill her human child which has already been set on an unalterable path of its life in order to stop that.”
Okay, so then you’d agree that taking emergency contraception is an act of murder, even if one doesn’t know definitively whether sperm and egg even met?
Megan, Backing out of answering with sarcasm… What’s the matter, the questions too deep or the answers don’t fit your character? Lets try again…
What did you say to the woman who told you “Please don’t bring him back to me?
Did you take a personal interest in helping her with care for her child?
About how old was this child?
Do you think that society would be better off if she had aborted that child?
“even if one doesn’t know definitively whether sperm and egg even met?”
No, I wouldn’t agree, and for that reason.
Hi Truthseeker,
Well, it took about two weeks’ worth of phone calls, special meeting times, and interpreters to get her to even come in to speak with us for parent-teacher conferences, so the amount I could at that moment was limited, and it was beyond my professional capacity to do so. I did tell her we could get her help with her situation, and I spoke with the program’s student-school liaison/counselor, who talked to this mom about her stress levels, living situation, etc., to see if we could do anything to help. There are many good food banks, shelters, IPV crisis resources, etc. in our town to aid in these types of situations. But for one, working at a summer school program, I was taking her son off her hands for the majority of the day in the first place, so that was, I hope, a small help. But I can tell you with certainty that having another kid would NOT have helped this situation.
Kel,
I do support adoption, but I have many qualms about the money-making industry it has become. I hope to do open adoption and to accomodate the birth mother in any way possible. But I fear that many women and girls in these situations would choose to parent if they had the resources, so there’s the first ethical quandary.
Xal,
Other people disagree with you, like those who campaigned for the Colorado Personhood 62 amendment. They’ll tell you that not knowing for sure whether pregnancy has occurred is not an excuse for making the uterus as hostile an environment as possible for developing life. The same reason why Catholic hospitals can refuse to provide Plan B to their patients, even rape victims. You have to admit it. The rules of your belief system aren’t as hard-and-fast as you’d like them to be, and we’re still left with the unresolved question of whether women owe their developing pregnancies anything at all.
Megan,
Megan,
Did you think she really wanted you to keep her child? Sounds like nobody even really the lady personally. About the only thing you have said about her is that she came to parent-teacher conferences and didn’t speak English and that you didn’t see any love in her eyes. Hardly grounds for an abortion campign against her. I’ll ask you again.
About how old was this child? And do you think that society would be better off if the lady had aborted that child?
Megan, you can give every scenario in the book and play God in making decisions of who should abort, but the woman wasn’t even pregnant and you were already deciding for her that another baby wouldn’t have been good in her life. Doesn’t that violate your sacred idea of choice?
What I don’t understand is that in this day and age, with all the birth control options out there (whether someone agrees with this or not), why is abortion not a RARE thing? It should be. Whether a person believes it should be legal or not (and I am in support of life, obviously), it should not be the rampant problem it is. This is a largely avoidable issue. But pro choicers like yourself don’t seem to think the millions of babies being aborted are a problem at all. In fact, you view it as a solution instead of the problem and that the true problem is with the pro lifers who actually value (GASP!) life. Go figure.
Also, why is this decision based on circumstance and mood? If my children were to see pictures of an abortion, or hear what abortion is (and I would never show them and they don’t even know what abortion means) even they would know how wrong it is. It would offend them and their innocence. Even they would understand that life trumps circumstance.
Have you ever wondered if maybe God’s plan is a little bit better than that of the feminists and that the gospel according the feminists could be wrong?
Megan, you have qualms about the ADOPTION industry becoming a “money making” industry. You’re joking right? Do you have these same qualms about the abortion industry?
Hello again,
Let me reiterate. The mother I spoke with clearly appeared frustrated and overwhelmed. In my estimation, having another kid would have put incredible strain on her and her situation. But if she WANTED to have another kid, sure, by all means, and it certainly isn’t my place to prescribe what she *ought* to do. We’ve got resources in town and people willing to connect her to them. But what if she DIDN’T want another child and became pregnant? THAT’S the issue.
Truthseeker: The kid was 12. And the question of whether he should or shouldn’t have been aborted is moot. He was born, he exists in this world, and that’s all that counts.
Kimberly: Abortion is prevalent because our society is morally bankrupt. Just keeeeding. But really, anywhere there’s sex–which is everywhere–there are going to be unwanted pregnancies and abortion. In the US, inconsistent birth control use is a major reason– whether due to lack of access to long-acting reversible contraception (and yes, many women DON’T KNOW they can walk into a Title X clinic and get the Depo shot for virtually nothing), poor sex education/literacy, or other factors that prevent couples from using contraception correctly every time. And yes, of course there are social issues, too: perceived lack of support, real lack of support, etc. Our country has one of the highest income disparities in the world; interesting that this stat might translate into higher abortion rates?
Hi Sydney,
The situations are slightly different. PP acts against its interests by providing free and reduced-cost contraception (and no matter how you may argue otherwise, access to contraception doesn’t result in higher abortion rates). If PP ONLY provided abortions, that would be a different story. Adoption can help fuel stratified reproduction, where infertile wealthy couples take advantage of girls and women in difficult circumstances. It’s not always the most “loving” choice, if done without proper informed consent and attention to the birth mother’s needs.
http://www.motherhelp.info/adoption_business.htm
Oh, and Kimberly:
I know, I know, God opens the womb and closes it and all our successes can be attributed to God and all our failures to Satan because we subscribe to a Manichean worldview that neatly distributes good and evil for people too foolish to think critically.
Xal,
Other people disagree with you, like those who campaigned for the Colorado Personhood 62 amendment.
So? You don’t agree with me either. I don’t think they’re any more right than you. Just less murderous.
They’ll tell you that not knowing for sure whether pregnancy has occurred is not an excuse for making the uterus as hostile an environment as possible for developing life. The same reason why Catholic hospitals can refuse to provide Plan B to their patients, even rape victims.
Once again, just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I have to agree with them. You’re just attempting to deflect to birth control in order to try and justify your actions. Won’t work. We’re not talking about CONTRACEPTION here, we’re takling about ABORTION. This is the difference between you plucking an apple off of a tree, throwing it on the ground, and the seed inside not germinating vs. you walking over to a seedling and just pulling it out of the ground and ripping it to shreds. BIIIG difference, even if you try to tell yourself there is no difference so that you feel better. Because it’s all about Megan. It’s always all about Megan. Megan doesn’t want to feel bad, or uncomfortable, so Megan’s baby has to die. Megan has to make bounding illogical leaps attempting to connect things which aren’t related, or point to people on the extreme end of the spectrum opposite her actions so she can say, “Well, THOSE people want to force us all to be brood mares!!!1111one” even though that’s not what I am talking about so that Megan feels better about killing her baby just to (in her view) get ahead in life. Whatever. My world does not revolve around Megan, so I will no longer abide your apples:oranges comparison.
You have to admit it.
I HAVE to do no such thing, nor will I. You’re the one who has created this false dichotomy to ease your conscience, not I.
The rules of your belief system aren’t as hard-and-fast as you’d like them to be, and we’re still left with the unresolved question of whether women owe their developing pregnancies anything at all.
Nobody owes “developing pregnancies” anything. That’s just a swollen uterus, fatty tissue, amniotic fluid, etc. What we owe and to whom is common human decency enough to not kill our children that are underneath those “developing pregnancies”. We owe that to the humans we have brought into the world. I gave my daughter that, despite the inconvenience. Despite my discomfort. Despite the pressures being exerted upon me by outside forces. So now, I have my 8 year old daughter, who, even though her life is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination, is still happy and most of all ALIVE. Our lives will change, sometimes for the better, sometimes the worse. But you, on the other hand, have a dead baby, and that will NEVER change, because that human has been killed, and always dead shall be.
Megan, you have a disdain for everything. Except for abortion, that is.
“You’re just attempting to deflect to birth control in order to try and justify your actions. Won’t work. We’re not talking about CONTRACEPTION here, we’re takling about ABORTION.”
In other circles, contraception and abortion are conflated. Hormonal birth control is sometimes defined as an abortifacient:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/learn/birth_control.asp
So you disagree with the contraception-as-abortion crowd, which you don’t find problematic at all, and then there’s our disagreement. You think blastocysts have less moral worth than implanted embryos, and I don’t think fetuses can ever have the same moral worth as born children. The situations are analogous, no? What makes you MORE right in the first instance than me in the second? Also, while there’s no saying what definitively causes a miscarriage, there are definite confounding factors. Smoking, for one. Preconception care is big these days, how to make our bodies most conducive to carrying a pregnancy to term. Why wouldn’t you emphasize these preventive measures if they could slightly improve the chances that a pregnancy will hold?
And if you think I’m splitting hairs, I’m not. You make grand claims about morality but pick and choose what discussions count. You reference biology and tell me that human life begins at conception, yet you’re more willing to let the issue of contraception slide than abortion. Yes, I know, at the end of the day I still support the killing of unborn humans. But you find these deaths permissible, just at the earliest stages of pregnancy when we can’t “know” for certain what caused them. Does that make you more moral than me? Does it matter? Still the ending of life, right?
“We owe that to the humans we have brought into the world.”
Really? Seems like circular reasoning here. There is nothing strictly in biology that tells us whether this is the case, and you’re referring to a particular moral code to which YOU subscribe. Doesn’t hold for everybody.
Here’s my humble assessment: your life is just as much a mess as anyone else’s here. But you’ve jumped on the abortion debate because mothering is the best thing you think you’ve done. It gives you feelings of power and superiority, and you don’t want anybody threatening it. Because if the moral universe were different than the one you’ve described, and God or the powers that be didn’t care whether you had chosen abortion or not, you’d probably feel a lot less in control of your situation. Or have a lot less to be self-righteous about.
If a woman suspects she’s pregnant and doesn’t get a pregnancy test but decides to take matters into her own hands, is she morally culpable for the abortion? If she douches with, say, bleach, without ever “knowing” for sure, is this action still immoral?
“And the question of whether he should or shouldn’t have been aborted is moot. He was born, he exists in this world, and that’s all that counts.”
The question was asked so I could understand what goes through your mind when you justify abortion. So for the fourth time I’ll ask you to answer the question.
Do YOU think that society would be better off if this child had been aborted?
“But what if she DIDN’T want another child and became pregnant? THAT’S the issue.”
Megan, you don’t just “become” pregnant. And once you are pregnant the child is here wether you want a child or not. “He was conceived, he exists in this world already. THAT’S the issue.”
Here’s my humble assessment: your life is just as much a mess as anyone else’s here. But you’ve jumped on the abortion debate because mothering is the best thing you think you’ve done.
Here’s my humble assessment of you Megan: your life is much, much more a mess than everyone’s here (you may be tied however for first with the few regular proaborts that post here). You’ve jumped on the abortion debate because you want to rationalize that aborting was the only ‘choice’ you could have made. Aborting is the best thing you think you’ve done.
I’ve yet to see a headstone that says Loving Aborter. But I’ve seen an awful lot that say Loving Mother. I know what I want on my headstone.
Jesus loves you so much. There is True freedom right around the corner. Please get in touch with Carla.
Who douches with bleach? I have never even heard of that!! And I know this was between you and Xalisae, but there is a BIG difference between now knowing you are pregnant and laying down on a table to have your unborn child torn or sucked from you. People can only be accountable for what they know. Most people who might even think they could be pregnant go into the mode of protecting themselves. There is a big difference in those who want their baby and those who want to kill their baby. And that’s what it really boils down to. So call it choice. Call it fetus. Call it woman’s reproductive rights. Call it what you want to disassociate from what is really happening. You admit yourself that at the end of the day you support the killing of unborn humans. Don’t you think there’s a problem with that?
No, I just think that there’s not much that can be done about them. If it’s going to implant, it will, and if not, it won’t. I was actually taking birth control when I became pregnant with my son. If it’s gonna happen, it will. Now…just because I was taking birth control when I became pregnant with my son, should I have had him murdered by an abortionist after he had started on his way within my womb and was living and growing on his own? See why I can understand the fact that there is a HUGE difference there between attempting to not get pregnant and killing a baby once a woman IS pregnant? There’s a willful action there that a woman HAS to exert to kill her baby. She can not be pregnant all day long without ever knowing.
My position requires a little bit of drawing from my own experiences, but in no way is it analogous to yours when one thinks about it in-depth. If mine is reduced to the difference in states a second before a blastocyst implants to the second afterward, it’s a moot point anyway, because how would a woman know she flushed a blastocyst? If it implants, she’s GONNA know eventually, right? I mean, that’s the difference between “pregnant” and “not pregnant”, and having gone through it twice, there’s a huge difference.
Let’s extend your position out. Let’s analyze the difference between a baby one second before birth and one second out of birth. What makes Baby A “kill on sight” and Baby B “off limits”?
You’re right, there’s no way of knowing if a blastocyst has implanted or not, or whether the gametes even fused in the first place. But there are some pro-lifers who don’t think pregnancy begins at implantation, and try their hardest to prevent any efforts to prevent a blastocyst’s implantation, like opposing OCs and the morning after pill. While the act/stage of intervention might be different (taking a pill right after unprotected sex vs. obtaining abortion), hardliners still see the outcome as being the same: thwarted pregnancy and murder.
But whatever. My point is that nobody’s moral position is definitive. And to respond to your question about “kill on sight” and “off limits,” I do believe that a woman should be involved in all levels of decision-making about her pregnancy. But there should be restrictions placed on late-term abortions because of viability. My argument for allowing abortions in the first place is the fact that nobody should be used as a means to an end, and I believe this includes pregnant women. But the situation does change after medical professionals determine that a fetus can exist physically separate from its mother. I think late-term abortions are permissible if they’re medically indicated. In these situations, “kill on site,” as you so delicately put it, is allowable because the mother’s physical well-being is still at stake. In cases where doctors determine that the child will not survive long after birth, abortion may be appropriate, especially if aggressive treatment will be the only thing keeping the baby alive and the child may suffer considerably.
But then again, I’m not a medical doctor. In “gray area” situations, doctors–not lawmkakers–need to be making these decisions with their patients.
“He was born, he exists in this world, and that’s all that counts.”
“He was conceived, he exists in this world, and thats all that counts.”
Megan, what’s the matter. Afraid of putting your foot in the nouth when the converwsation goes past taking points and into who you are as a person? You must really be afraid to share your answer to that question. Like a troll does. I guess you haven’t figured out how to get this answer into your script yet. You have had several days to write an answer…lol lets try a FIFTH time…
Do YOU think that society would be better off if this child had been aborted?
Hi Truthseeker,
I think you’re thuggish and stupid, lol, which is why I’ve stopped responding to you specifically, lol. But for our mutual benefit, since maybe you’ll quit pestering, I’ll oblige, lol.
Like I said, I think the question is irrelevant, since I believe born human beings have the right to life. So there’s no point in going back and talking about hypotheticals, like “well, should he have been aborted?” I answered that already, and it was a “no.” But for the sake of the argument, “do I think society would be better off if this child had been aborted?”, I’d have to say: yes and no. No because he exists in this world and as such has an impact that no other person could have. He has an inherent value as a unique and SEPARATE human being. But in another sense, when we aren’t talking about society at large but the individuals immediately surrounding him, then yes. If his mother is really so unhappy with motherhood, or didn’t want to have a baby in the first place and doesn’t find solace in the resources provided to her, than yes. Maybe abortion would have been a better option. IN the future, if she doesn’t want to have a kid, then abortion should be available to her. This is NOT to say she SHOULD get an abortion, but if she wants one, then it should be available.
Question:
Do YOU think that society would be better off if this child had been aborted?
Answer:
“when we aren’t talking about society at large but the individuals immediately surrounding him, then yes.”
So you are this kids eigth grade teacher and you say that the individuals around this twelve year old boy would be better off if he had been aborted. And you expected to see love in his mother’s eyes. Parents wouldn’t allow their kids into your classroom if they knew how scornful you feel towards them.
Oh no, couldn’t see THAT one coming, Truthsucker. It’s easier to catch a beach ball than a baseball, you know.
First, go back and read my comment with its nuances. Would mom have been happier without this kid? Maybe. Probably. I didn’t ask. And as I’ve said, I didn’t think about that when I talked to this woman, because I don’t consider the question of “what should have been” to be relevant. It actualy doesn’t matter in the least, since this child was born and is very much his own person. He deserves access to everything that allows a “wanted” child to thrive. The only issue is the future: how mom is going to provide for this kid, and if having another child will a) hamper her ability to provide for the kids she has now b) threaten her physical, emotional and mental well-being.
And by the way, I was teaching at a summer school nonprofit, when public school is closed for the summer. I was there because I believe in the right of (born) children to maximize their educational experiences, and public school just wasn’t doing the job. And because their parents worked during the day and couldn’t watch after them. No, I don’t believe in making sure every pregnant woman squeezes out a baby. That’s kind of a ridiculous objective when there’s a lack of resources to go around to every child in the first place.
“I was there because I believe in the right of (born) children to maximize their educational experiences, and public school just wasn’t doing the job.”
If we believe exposing a precious child to someone like Megan who believes that ”maybe abortion would have been a better option” for their mother and that Megan is somehow maximizing children’s educational experiences, our educational system is indeed in trouble. We need to rid the public school system of adults like Megan not throw more of them into the mix. Funny how Megan thinks she can do a better job than the public schools educating children but she chose to kill her own child because it didn’t work for her.
I work with middle school students. I also work with a few sick adults who think like Megan. One teacher said with all sincerety referring to a couple of poor children, “it should be legal to sterilize them before they can reproduce.” Why do people like her and Megan even choose to work with children? Because they feel powerless around healthy adults but can get their little power trips around innocent children. Nothing like spreading the hate to little ones.
Megan, if you don’t think children can pick up on who truly loves and cares for them and who thinks they would be better off dead, you are sorely mistaken. You can’t pass on something you don’t have yourself and you don’t have self-love. I would be interested in seeing a picture of your eyes because I bet they are as empty as Carhardt’s and Hitler’s.
I pray for the children you are exposed to. I wouldn’t let you anywhere near my children.
Oh yes, I just knew you were going to jump on the bandwagon. That’s the mature thing to do, wait for someone to answer a question, skew their words, and then pounce. Oh, and you might do better to address me in the second person. Your comments won’t sound as weird.
Unlike the abortion-obsessesd here, I don’t look at kids and think, “Oh no! They almost might not have been, endanged species, put the padlock on the vagina. waaaaah.” Sorry, but I don’t occupy my mind with dumb hypotheticals. When pressed, I said his mom might have been happier without kids, since frankly she seemed so miserable. That’s a far cry from saying, “Well, you’ve made things difficult, they should have aborted you when they had the chance.” Uh, no. That’s not how it works. You can plan for the future, but once a kid is born, there’s no going back. And no, I do not believe people should be sterilized–that violates pretty much every belief about autonomy of personhood and freedom that I have. On the other hand, if a woman WANTS to get her tubes tied, or wants an abortion, then by all means, these things should be available.
What Prax, you think I work with kids because I…find their presence to offend my pro-choice sensibility? Because I…secretly want to snuff them out? Yes, I get my kicks by…handing out workbooks on elementary algebra! And watching them drink cartons of milk at lunch!
Lady, you might need to tune-up your argument because it’s devolved beyond the logical. If you took away every person in your middle school who has had an abortion or been the partner of someone who’s had an abortion, the place would be half empty.
It’s a matter of extension, Megan. If we extend our position, others are not being killed willfully by someone else. If we extend your position, they are. Period. I reiterate what I said earlier:
Nobody owes “developing pregnancies” anything. That’s just a swollen uterus, fatty tissue, amniotic fluid, etc. What we owe and to whom is common human decency enough to not kill our children that are underneath those “developing pregnancies”. We owe that to the humans we have brought into the world. I gave my daughter that, despite the inconvenience. Despite my discomfort. Despite the pressures being exerted upon me by outside forces. So now, I have my 8 year old daughter, who, even though her life is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination, is still happy and most of all ALIVE. Our lives will change, sometimes for the better, sometimes the worse. But you, on the other hand, have a dead baby, and that will NEVER change, because that human has been killed, and always dead shall be.
I can’t understand why, to you at least, it is permissible for one to willfully kill her child at a certain point in their life cycle. It doesn’t make sense, and that’s why we’re having difficulty here with the “should have been aborted” thing.
Now back to the matter at hand:
You’re right, there’s no way of knowing if a blastocyst has implanted or not, or whether the gametes even fused in the first place. But there are some pro-lifers who don’t think pregnancy begins at implantation, and try their hardest to prevent any efforts to prevent a blastocyst’s implantation, like opposing OCs and the morning after pill. While the act/stage of intervention might be different (taking a pill right after unprotected sex vs. obtaining abortion), hardliners still see the outcome as being the same: thwarted pregnancy and murder.
Ok. Good for them. That’s great. But Megan…need I remind you once more that you are talking to ME, not THEM? Please tell me how those people thinking that contraceptives are wrong justify your action of having your child killed in utero.
And also, I’d like to thank you for your previous analysis of me as an individual, and your attempt at comprehending my motivations. I’m not surprised that this is so far beyond you, as you seem to have difficultly grasping the reality for anyone outside of Megan. You just can’t see past your own nose to the fact that sometimes one should put themselves at the very least second for the good of someone else, particularly their own children. It’s no wonder society seems to be on the brink of collapse with people that have attitudes like yours running around in such great numbers.
your life is just as much a mess as anyone else’s here. But you’ve jumped on the abortion debate because mothering is the best thing you think you’ve done.
Not really. I’ve done many, many things I’m quite proud of…just nothing I’d be willing to kill my child to achieve.
It gives you feelings of power and superiority, and you don’t want anybody threatening it. Because if the moral universe were different than the one you’ve described, and God or the powers that be didn’t care whether you had chosen abortion or not, you’d probably feel a lot less in control of your situation.
I’m sure I don’t have to remind you, but at the time, I was a proud atheist, not beholden to any “god” or “powers that be”. Once again we see another invention that you’ve whipped up to justify your actions. Someone HAS to have a god or authority figure or someone else in control of them for them NOT to have an abortion. I mean…who would knowingly do something to help someone else that is not the most expedient solution for them?! Sociopathy at its finest, ladies and gents.
Or have a lot less to be self-righteous about.
I just want to close by saying this: This is not about you, Megan. This is not about me, either. This is about my daughter, and frankly, you saying, “…whether you had an abortion or not…” makes me nautious and sends chills down my spine, because THAT IS ANOTHER HUMAN LIFE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. That is not some nameless mass of tissue, as you reduced your child to in your own mind. This is my daughter you’re speaking of like that. She is a vibrant 8 year old named Magdalena, and she is every bit the human worthy of rights and protections now as she was when she was inside me. I didn’t refrain from killing her out of any imagined obligation to the big G, or anyone else. I didn’t kill her because she was alive and human, and I had been where she was 20 years before that, and I would’ve wanted someone else to protect me until I was able to take care of myself just like I did for her. Doing so wasn’t my greatest accomplishment. It wasn’t something extraordinary. It was BASIC. HUMAN. DECENCY. And I think it is BEYOND TRAGIC that at this point, we would have to legislate something so rudimentary as “Hey moms, please don’t kill your kids, m’kay?”
I don’t look at kids and think, “Oh no! They almost might not have been, endanged species, put the padlock on the vagina. waaaaah.” Sorry, but I don’t occupy my mind with dumb hypotheticals. When pressed, I said his mom might have been happier without kids, since frankly she seemed so miserable.
You make fun of prolifers who talk about what might have been (even though the child did at one time actually exist) but you argue the exact same way only in reverse (and the child currently exists). Maybe you might have been happier had you not killed your child since frankly you seem so miserable Megan.
What Prax, you think I work with kids because I…find their presence to offend my pro-choice sensibility? I think you work with children because they are easy targets for you to take your prodeath anger out on.
Yes, I get my kicks by…handing out workbooks on elementary algebra! And watching them drink cartons of milk at lunch! Funny how you weren’t able to handle parenting one child but you feel you are maximizing educational experiences for many children because ”public school just wasn’t doing the job.” Is the world a better place because your child was snuffed out and not allowed to learn algebra and drink cartons of milk and have his educational experience maximized by his mother?
Lady, you might need to tune-up your argument because it’s devolved beyond the logical.
I divorced a very abusive man who patronized me often. He too called me ‘Lady’ when I disagreed with him. If scares me to think how you react to middle school students (who are well-known for arguing). Don’t bother trying to tune-up your logic Megan because you will never be able to turn the illogical into the logical. Killing humans in the name of human rights is as illogical as it gets.
If you took away every person in your middle school who has had an abortion or been the partner of someone who’s had an abortion, the place would be half empty.
Reread. I didn’t state that every person who has had or been the partner of one who’s aborted should go. People like the teacher I referred to and prodeath adults like yourself do more harm to children than good and they take their obvious anger out on little ones. I know of teachers who fell for the proabort movement lies and/or were coerced into abortion and now regret their ‘choice’. It is outspoken proabort adults like you who are truly prodeath and want to spread your hate. Your statements talk more of pushing your death agenda than really caring about children and their families. When all preborn children are once again allowed to live, they will fill any empty spots in schools were the proaborts once stood and preached their hateful lies to the innocents.
Xalisae, Please give Magdalena an extra hug for me tonight. Love Wins.
Question:
Do YOU think that society would be better off if this child had been aborted?
Answer:
“when we aren’t talking about society at large but the individuals immediately surrounding him, then yes.”
Megan, there is no nuance to that answer.
“Please tell me how those people thinking that contraceptives are wrong justify your action of having your child killed in utero.”
Because it’s a different moral code they subscribe to which they believe is “correct.” You don’t, but you also hold up your beliefs to be the hardline moral standard. Who’s correct? But then again, there aren’t any hard-and-fast rules in a situation where two (one potential) sets of rights are in contention. Some people think women should never take hormonal contraception, others don’t care. Some people think women shouldn’t take up certain blue collar jobs out of concern for a potential fetus, others don’t. Some people think pregnancy begins at conception, others define it at implantation. And yes, there are those who believe women’s bodies shouldn’t be used as a means to an end. Who’s right? You won’t ever find a definitive answer.
And it didn’t take any mental work on my part to think about my pregnancy as nascent human life, not a fully-formed human being, not a child. Yes, he/she had a unique combination of DNA that can never be replicated. But six weeks was a little early to be talking about “uniqueness” and “impact on society,” especially since he/she was entirely dependent on my body. Sorry, yes: my body, my life. Me, me, me. What an anathema! Heaven forbid I passively resign myself to a life-changing event directly involving my blood, bones, heart and lungs. Oh, the selfishness.
Oh Prax. If only we all could be as moral, upstanding, chastened and regret-free as yourself. That’s right, volunteering at a summer school program gave me an outlet to spew words of bile, hate and death at twelve-year-olds. Instead of problem sets, they practiced their dart-throwing skills on Anne Geddes posters of naked babies! And at the end of the summer I had them all drink “magic” Koolaid and wait for the asteroid, too…Oh Prax, you know us “pro-deaths” all too well. It must be really hard for you to reconcile the fact that I support a woman’s right to abortion and the rights of children to be raised in healthy, supportive environments. Such cognitive dissonance, I know. What do you say to children and women, Prax? “I don’t care whether your mom wanted you or not, or she put her body through hell to have you, or didn’t have the resources to support you–all that matters is that every fertilized egg makes its way to the vaginal canal intact.”
Also Prax, I bet you don’t EVER let your political or religious views inform your interactions with children. No religious mumbo-jumbo, beliefs in the evils of sex, that gayness is a grave grave miserable heinous sin, that the government is overstepping its bounds if it tries to achieve too much social justice via public service programs–none of that seeps through your lovely, happy, ever-nurturing demeanor, eh?
Megan,
What percentage of your thoughts do you express with sarcasm? Is it greater or less than 90%?
But six weeks was a little early to be talking about “uniqueness” and “impact on society,” especially since he/she was entirely dependent on my body.
In Megan’s world dependence on Megan is equal to no positive impact on society.
Hey Truthseeker, I hope you don’t mind if I respond to Megan with one of your quotes. Extra hugs to your family today. Love Wins.
Question:
Do YOU think that society would be better off if this child had been aborted?
Answer:
“when we aren’t talking about society at large but the individuals immediately surrounding him, then yes.”
Megan, there is no nuance to that answer.
Try not to hate me because I am a follower of Christ Megan. John 15:18-27
But six weeks was a little early to be talking about “uniqueness” and “impact on society,” especially since he/she was entirely dependent on my body.
I don’t care if my daughter was cookie-cutter, plain-jane, run-of-the-mill as they come. “Generic human” is still a human life, and still worthy of protection. I don’t care if she never has any impact on society at all. She’s still a human life. Still worthy of protection. Your inability to feel compassion towards your child wasn’t his/her shortcoming, but yours.
I’m just glad we have Queen of the Universe Megan to decide the criteria for human lives worthy of living.
Sorry, yes: my body, my life. Me, me, me. What an anathema! Heaven forbid I passively resign myself to a life-changing event directly involving my blood, bones, heart and lungs. Oh, the selfishness.
As long as you admit it.
Megan, do you think that hormonal contraceptives should come with warnings that they have horrendous side effects for some women, that they often fail to prevent pregnancy, that they have caused blood clots leading to death in many women’ that they have been linked to uterine & breast cancer?
What was it you said about a woman’s body being used as a means to an end?
Hi Rebecca,
Yes, I definitely think so. Women should absolutely consult with medical professionals to decide if OCs are right for them, and if there are any medical contraindications to taking them.
Xalisae,
I don’t claim to be the “Queen of the Universe,” just queen of my own body and its various processes. If they feel it’s right for them, women can get hysterectomies at age 20. Or have 19 children if they feel so inclined. Notice that social conservatives pushed the “welfare queen” discourse to demonize the “wrong” women for having too many children–a nasty tactic, IMO.
I don’t claim to be the “Queen of the Universe,” just queen of my own body and its various processes.
Once again, when you can prove to me it was YOUR body you paid an abortionist to have chopped up and suctioned out of your body (lol, wut?), I might agree with you. But it wasn’t YOUR body, was it.
If you know you don’t want children, why haven’t you had your tubes cut & tied? Seems like that would be less stress on your body & you would no longer have to abort your childrens bodies.