The slaughter house rules
Well I just watched an undercover video shot by the Humane Society of a California beef plant where cows were supposedly tortured and killed, and I must say I’m disgusted.
The 5 o’clock news last night showed clips of the video – with no warning of its graphic nature. I’m glad my seven-year-old grandson wasn’t around, or I might have had to explain where hamburger comes from.
What’s wrong with these Humane Society people? Don’t they have better things to do with their time? They would adopt their own cow herd if they really cared.
At any rate, this video is a fake, I’m sure.
And even if not, I don’t believe cows feel pain when being plowed by forklifts. No one can prove to me that they do.
Many cows in the video were maimed anyway. Slaughtering them was best for all. What else would we do with them? No one wants them. We’re just putting them out of their misery. I’m sure this is what they would tell us they want if they could talk.
These Humane Society people are obsessed. They should get a life. They may not like how meat plants slaughter cows, but that’s their choice. If we regulate cattle-killing, the next thing you know there will be no more steaks. Or slaughter houses may resort to underground illegal cattle killing.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
It would be nice if we had a “recall” on abortions.
I have a video or two we could show to the public that might open a few eyes!
Cows can feel pain. Cow embryos cannot, and cow fetuses cannot, to a point in gestation, but cows can.
For a someone who calls herself a “pro-lifer”, your comments are remarkably cruel here, Jill. I honor the animals that give their lives for my nourishment, and I’d rather eat ones that were healthy and well-treated, not sick and abused or tortured. Furthermore, I think that everyone, including your grandson, would be a lot better off knowing where hamburger comes from. When we eat meat, we are eating animals that were once living and breathing, and this ought not to be taken lightly.
Respect for life? Is this a joke? Just a cynical and deliberate attempt to spark yet another controversy? I can’t believe anyone who calls herself PRO-LIFE could say this so deliberately and with apparent sincerity. Is this the other side of the PRO-LIFE personality? You people are crazy, crazy, CRAZY!!!
Great analogy, Jill!
For a someone who calls herself a “pro-lifer”, your comments are remarkably cruel here, Jill. I honor the animals that give their lives for my nourishment, and I’d rather eat ones that were healthy and well-treated, not sick and abused or tortured. Furthermore, I think that everyone, including your grandson, would be a lot better off knowing where hamburger comes from. When we eat meat, we are eating animals that were once living and breathing, and this ought not to be taken lightly.
Ray, read her comments again. I think you may not be getting her point. Does anything sound familiar?
I do not plan on looking at that video…. Just glad I don’t eat meat! By the way, I’m also pro-life wrt abortion, so, yes, in my mind, the two are extremely comparable.
Ray,
I think you miss Jill’s point. Yes Jill’s comments are cruel, but they have a very familiar ring. These are the exact comments made by PCs when PLs show pictures of fetuses that have clearly been aborted, not miscarried as some people claim.
I in no way condone animal cruelty, but why all this outrage over animals and not unborn humans?
ray and little-
She is mimicking the arguments of the pro-choice side.
LBL,
Crazy? Like Ray, I believe you should read Jill’s comments again and see if there isn’t something very familiar about them.
Not only does Jill’s post mimic (sarcastically) the pro choice sides arguments for abortion, but the pro choice side, responds with the same arguments that we give for babies…too funny.
I think that everyone, including your grandson, would be a lot better off knowing where hamburger comes from.
I think that everyone, including children, would be a lot better off knowing what abortions look like.
When we eat meat, we are eating animals that were once living and breathing, and this ought not to be taken lightly.
When we kill fetuses, we are killing human beings that were once living and breathing, and this ought not to be taken lightly
I honor the animals that give their lives for my nourishment, and I’d rather eat ones that were healthy and well-treated, not sick and abused or tortured.
I honor children that are killed through abortion for convenience, and I’d rather honor ones that were alive, well-treated and not abused or tortured.
I thought the post was very clever!
Great job!
MK,
The list goes on and on. Jill did an excellent job of throwing the PC arguments right back at them, and look how they reacted.
Let’s not forget that just as this meat is bought and sold for profit, aborted babies are as well. Where’s the outrage? We don’t even hear about this from the MSM.
Mary,
I agree!
They are blind to the horrors of abortion, and blind to the irony in this post to their own comments.
I thought the point was well made, Jill. MK, I love your comments too!
The reactions were priceless and proved the point so well.
Okay, I get it: sarcasm…very CLEVER.
And yet you do eat meat Jill, I presume? How do you justify that needless and environmentally devastating choice, whilst railing against abortion of human fetuses?
BTW, how does Jill (and her supporters here) feel about Prez Bush’s little war? I’m sure the point has been made here before, but considering her cushy relationship I think the irony bears emphasis. We don’t even know why we’re in Iraq, and we’re sending our boys and girls to die by the hundreds, kill by the thousands. Life?
Carla, thanks. I’m surprised pro-aborts didn’t get the analogy, seriously. How blind can people be? Even the title, “The slaughter house rules,” provided an abortion analogy.
Glad pro-lifers explained.
Jill, this vegan got the joke :)
Good job, yet again!
*LOL* TOUCHE !! Great job , Jill!
I think we should have let them go a little longer, though, before we let them in on the “irony” secret. It was bringing me lots of laughs this early in the morning!
And Doug, prove to me cows feel pain.
This is satire. Jill is obviously making an analogy to how pro-aborts respond when we show them evidence of cruelty to humans.
By the way- this sort of thing is way I’m a vegetarian. Weaker, more vulnerable beings (from animals to children of all ages) deserve protection from abuse.
Jill, great post!
Anon,
I agree…for people who claim to understand satire and sarcasm..they SURE missed it on this one!
LBL,
If you don’t see the difference between humans and cows, then there is not much to say.
While the abuse shown to these animals is awful, they are still, animals.
As to “Bush’s” little war? First off, we aren’t sending anyone anywhere. They volunteer. As far as I know the draft has not be reinstated.
And 3,000 volunteer soldiers compared to 49 million forced deaths is hardly comparable. When those soldiers went to Iraq they knew exactly what they were getting into. Kudos to them for going anyway.
But little tiny babies do not “sign up” to be born. They are created by two people who choose to engage in an act that results in their existence.
One has nothing to do with the other.
Why do you guys always make the illogical leap that if we are against killing babies, we must be for rape, war and the death penalty?
Talk about crazy, crazy, crazy…
Fellow Vegetarians,
There is nothing immoral about killing animals for food, medical advancement, etc.
but
It is grossly immoral to abuse, neglect or otherwise mistreat animals.
If I saw someone kicking around a chicken, I would rescue the chicken. If I saw someone pluck a chicken from a open field, kill it quickly and turn it into soup, I’d put my bib on.
I oppose animal cruelty and refuse to support it by buying meat, and thus, I don’t eat meat. Animal cruelty is the only reason, not some backasswards belief that chicken have the “right” to live but unborn humans, ill humans, disabled humans etc. do not.
Who is inconsistent?
Wow, I didn’t know you were a vegetarian, Jacque!
LBL, 9:13am
Tell me how you feel about police officers and fire fighters. Like our service men and women, these men and women also have made the choice to put their lives on the line every time they go to work, some for years at a time. Like our soldiers they do their jobs when called upon. Like our soldiers they also very tragically die in the line of duty.
When you call the police or fire department for an emergency, do you give any thought to the fact that some man or woman might die assisting and protecting you?
Also, did you know millions of our furry friends are killed by the machinery used to grow vegetables?
I wish the bats**t crazy animal rights folks would channel just one fifth of their misplaced “compassion” and indignation towards protecting human rights. Instead, they refuse to eat honey because it comes from bees while consequently killing their own unborn children.
Babies before insects!
Temple Grandner, PHD, is a woman with autism. She would be a perfect candidate for abortion as those with autism are believed to be handicapped and thus undesirable.
Among other things, she is known the world over for creating humane systems for killing livestock.
Animal scientist Temple Grandin says autism helps her see things as animals do. Grandin talks about her work designing humane slaughter systems for animals, and her unique way of looking at the world
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5165123
“In 1986, a quite extraordinary, unprecedented and, in a way, unthinkable book was published, Temple Grandin’s Emergence: Labeled Autistic. Unprecedented because there had never before been an ‘inside narrative’ of autism; unthinkable because it had been medical dogma for forty years or more that there was no ‘inside,’ no inner life, in the autistic. . .extraordinary because of its extreme (and strange) directness and clarity. Temple Grandin’s voice came from a place which had never had a voice. . .and she spoke not only for herself, but for thousands of others. . .
*
Oliver Sacks
Temple Grandin, Ph.D., is inarguably the most accomplished and well-known adult with autism in the world. She is known world wide for her work on the design of livestock handling facilities. In North America half the cattle are handled in systems she has designed.
.
Jill I completely agree w/ your analogy, good job with this one!
Jacqueline at February 19, 2008 9:37 AM I wish the bats**t crazy animal rights folks would channel just one fifth of their misplaced “compassion” and indignation towards protecting human rights. Instead, they refuse to eat honey because it comes from bees while consequently killing their own unborn children.
I think this same thing all the time, it drives me nuts. Save the spotted owl! Save the one-eyed horny toad! Save the trees! Save the dust mites! Murder the babies!!!
HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE??
Bethany,
Very cute! That would make a good T-shirt design.
Jacque,
If you are vegetarian because of your concerns about animal cruelty you might look into different sources for meat and eggs.
I get eggs from a local Amish farmer. The chickens are not caged and are free range. They are certified organic and not fed a lot of antibiotics, etc. I also get raw milk from another farmer, certified organic. He’s very strict about the treatment of his cattle and what they’re fed. No antiobiotics, etc.
Check with a reputable health food store. They may be able to advise you.
I don’t know about you, Jill, but my uterus is not a barn. I actually have to carry around anything that lives in there, and that puts my health and happiness at risk. That’s why I shouldn’t have to carry anything in there if I don’t want to. Thank God the law agrees with me.
I don’t know about you, Jill, but my uterus is not a barn.
Mine isn’t either. It’s a wonderfully designed perfect haven for a tiny baby who can grow and develop in there. It’s soft, warm, comfortable,stretchable, making it a wonderful home for any baby. No babies of mine will be forcibly and painfully removed with forceps and a curette, from the safe haven of my womb.
MUCH better than a barn!
Reality,
Not only does the law agree with you, but so do pro lifers. You most definitely should not carry anything around in your uterus that you do not want. However, if you “choose” to engage in certain behaviors that lead to pregnancy, then killing the resulting child is, well, to use your analogy, a little like shutting the barn door after the horse has gotten out.
Keep your clothes on til you’re ready for parenthood and you won’t have anything you don’t want, around in your uterus.
So simple.
Go marykay!
hahaha, mk, exactly right!
Reality: Here’s a bit of “reality” for you:
If you don’t want anything growing in your uterus that you’ll have to carry around, or jeapordize your health and happiness, then BE RESPONSIBLE and make sure nothing get’s in there in the first place. Self control. It’s that simple.
I can’t believe so many people didn’t see the satire in Jill’s words.
Jill,
I love your analogy. How clever. Acting!!!
Awesome post MK!!
“And Doug, prove to me cows feel pain.”
Poke one with a pin and get a kick in the face and there you go cows feel pain.
And Jill you’re still going to eat meat right? This video changes nothing for you, so why should pro-life video’s change anything for us? You are basically saying, “Look at this torture, but I still eat meat!”
Bethany, Lol! Save The Baby Humans. It’s terrible the way those poor babies are happily swimming around the arctic one moment, being clubbed on their icebergs the next. Every time I see someone wearing baby I want to throw red paint on them and scream, “Skin Is Murder!”
“Keep your clothes on til you’re ready for parenthood and you won’t have anything you don’t want, around in your uterus.”
Unless someone rapes you. I want to know how many women are seeking abortions who have been raped by boyfriends and can’t bring themselves to report it.
Thank you for again looking like a complete and total idiot.
“MUCH better than a barn!”
But there aren’t any cute sheep, are there?
Jess,
One would have to know someone who has been raped and got pregnant. I know of 2. One kept her beautiful boy and is healing from the horror of her rape. One had an abortion and is now trying to heal from the horror of the rape and the horror of the abortion. Abortion does not heal a rape. Abortion only compounded the pain for my friend.
Yes. Yes. Yes. I will hear the other side of the coin. She was raped and got pregnant and had an abortion and is so happy and relieved. I know. I know.
Poke one with a pin and get a kick in the face and there you go cows feel pain.
Human Fetuses respond to pin pricks too, Jess, from very early on.
Texas Red is talking to him/herself again….
oh my.
Thank you for again looking like a complete and total idiot.
Thank you for again sounding like a broken record.
Jess,
The objection in this video is not to the eating of meat, it’s to the inhumane way the animals are treated to get the meat.
We are against the inhumane treatment of all life (except maybe earwigs), and therefore want the cows treated with respect and we want babies to be allowed to live.
As to the rape question…while it is a horrible thing to be raped, by a boyfriend OR a stranger, it is an unfortunate consequence of someone who has abused their free will. Killing the unborn is also an abuse of free will. It doesn’t make the woman ‘unraped” and it doesn’t remove the perpetrator from society (and can in fact allow him to go on raping if as you say, it is left unreported). All it does is end the childs life.
You wouldn’t kill the rapists father would you? Or his dog? Of course not, because they had nothing to do with the rape. Neither did the innocent life that was created. A child created by rape is a unique problem and cannot be solved by conventional methods. While my heart goes out to the women that are in this situation, my compassion does not reach so far, that I can condone the death of a human being.
“I will hear the other side of the coin. She was raped and got pregnant and had an abortion and is so happy and relieved. I know. I know.”
Well Carla, I think what people need to realize is that what you stated is not the other side of the coin. The opposite of “I regret my abortion” is not “I don’t regret my abortion,” yet “I regret my child.” We are advocating that abortion should never take place; hence, we need to hear about how someone did not obtain an abortion, but now wishes that they did not have their child. We need to see the horrors of having a child that exist when “choice” is taken away. So the challenge is to find women who say “I wish my child was dead.” God love you, Carla.
Bethany, Lol! Save The Baby Humans. It’s terrible the way those poor babies are happily swimming around the arctic one moment, being clubbed on their icebergs the next. Every time I see someone wearing baby I want to throw red paint on them and scream, “Skin Is Murder!”
No, it’s terrible the way those babies are happily swimming around in their mother’s womb one moment, then being pulled and torn from limb to limb the next. That’s the tragedy.
Jess,
All you’ve proved is that sticking a cow with a pin will cause a reaction. But you can’t prove that what the cow felt was pain, and not, say, annoyance.
Carla,
You point out that in both cases the woman had to heal from the rape, not the resulting pregnancies. That’s the whole point our society overlooks. Its thought that sending a woman to an abortionist magically heals the horror of the crime. This trivializes the crime. Rape victims are still ridiculed as “wanting it”, “asking for it”, or “too ugly” to have been a rape victim. But we care, we enable her to have an abortion.
If only our society was as emotional and outraged over sexual assault as it is over the occasional pregnancy that results from it, women would truly benefit.
All this talk of meat has me VERY hungry
Hey Midnite,
How’s your grandpa?
“All this talk of meat has me VERY hungry”
Oh man, midnite, I hear ya! Thank goodness today isn’t Friday! (mwahaha, lent humor!)
Yes, Mary! Yes.
Mary- My friends do that. They get their meat and eggs from local, reputable farmers.
They were vegetarians for 9 months- she began anemic and chunks of hair were falling out, despite doing everything right. That’s when they found cruelty-free farmers. I’m the opposite. I feel better without meat. The hormones in it cause me menstrual cramps. Although I have slumps, this is pretty much just how I live.
Fellow Vegetarians,
There is nothing immoral about killing animals for food, medical advancement, etc.
but
It is grossly immoral to abuse, neglect or otherwise mistreat animals.
If I saw someone kicking around a chicken, I would rescue the chicken. If I saw someone pluck a chicken from a open field, kill it quickly and turn it into soup, I’d put my bib on.
I oppose animal cruelty and refuse to support it by buying meat, and thus, I don’t eat meat. Animal cruelty is the only reason, not some backasswards belief that chicken have the “right” to live but unborn humans, ill humans, disabled humans etc. do not.
Who is inconsistent?
Posted by: Jacqueline at February 19, 2008 9:34 AM
Wow Jaque,
When did you become a vegetarian??
“You wouldn’t kill the rapists father would you?”
Would you force the woman to live with her rapist father for nine months, feeding him, clothing him, providing a roof over his head and his comfort? Maybe people who are robbed should be forced to take in the robbers family and care for them?
My uterus isn’t a barn. It’s a very selective, safe place reserved for only my biological children.
Since I hold the ultimate decision on who ends up there and when by having sex or not having sex, I take that decision seriously. I’ve decided not to have sex with anyone that is not married to me. My children deserve that type of stability, especially when even the best circumstances are polluted by the world.
So you invite your children into your uterus by creating them, and then violated evict them with forceps. Can you see the perks to waiting until the best time to create them? I sure do!
Would you force the woman to live with her rapist father for nine months, feeding him, clothing him, providing a roof over his head and his comfort? Maybe people who are robbed should be forced to take in the robbers family and care for them?
You’re forgetting that baby is hers too.
Sandy!
I owe you a thank you note! What a thoughtful and sweet gesture to send that luxurious pedicure kit!
I was vegetarian on and off for a while, but defected due to conveinence. I never ate much red meat because it causes me girly aches and pains, but I ate chicken and turkey. I got re-convicted at the March when I got a pamphlet on factory farming. I then decided to give up meat completely for Lent because I wouldn’t have the choice to defect- in hopes that after 40 days it will be a permanent lifestyle.
Factory farming makes Jesus cry and I don’t want to be a part of it.
You’re forgetting that baby is hers too.
How do people miss that? “I can’t have that man’s baby.” “That’s a rapist’s baby.”
No- that’s YOUR baby.
Jess,
You’ll notice that I said the circumstances were unique and therefore would require extraordinary solutions.
What good would living with the father do? Would the father die without you? Are you the only person that could keep him alive?
MK:
He’s not doing to good. He’s very weak from the Chemo, and he’s tired all the time; plus it’s killing his appetite.
Oh Jill-
You just don’t get it, do you?
Suffering is BAD.
Of course, someone who casually cops to leaving her child to suffer – all the while weeping over frozen zygotes – probably wouldn’t understand.
You don’t mind suffering.
When I think of you in that utility room with a dying pre-term infant for the hour you failed to demand treatment, failed to demand comfort measures, and failed to muster the ba**s to put an end to it’s suffering, I kind of figured you didn’t mind.
That kind of thing has never happened on my watch. In fact, that kind of inaction in the face of suffering would get me arrested and jailed for animal cruelty. A nurse is a mandatory reporter. Certainly you called 911 or filed a police report when the utility room incident occurred (if it occurred). You wouldn’t have any problem having your story corroborated by the other medical professionals you worked with, especially if they were deposed or testified under oath.
Does this have anything to do with your sociopathic hatred of bovines? I found this in one of your old posts. It’s sort of disturbing:
“And you thought I was exaggerating about those sacred cows.
Meanwhile, just as Indians revere their untouchable sacred cows while people lay dying in ignorance all around them, so do African Americans continue to revere their two sacred cows.
But I have hope.
Historically speaking, cows don’t fare well in Chicago. It was a cow, after all, that kicked over Mrs. O’Leary’s lantern and started the Great Chicago Fire.
It’s only a matter of time before history repeats, and these two cows torch themselves due to their abortion obsession.”
And Doug, prove to me cows feel pain.
I’d say just hook a cow and a person up to an EEG, and then induce pain in both of them. The responses, both physically observable, and as far as brainwaves, won’t leave much doubt.
Midnite,
I’m so sorry to hear this. My thoughts and best wishes are with you and your family.
Mmm… cows are good eatin’.
I’d just like to say that the Humane Society people are a bit obsessed… although PETA is more so. I would take anything said by them with a rather large grain of salt (then grind up the salt and sprinkle it on my beef).
In any case, I’m a bit wary of any meat that comes any farther away than a farm in my state. I like muh cows fresh and mooing! Healthy, yeah, that’d be good. The health of the slaughterhouse cows is my main concern. I wouldn’t want my chilluns eating sick cow meat. Mad cow! Aah!!!
Nope, I am not talking about abortions at all. Just cows. Cows cows cows. Moooooooo…
Wow – Part of the problem is too many MOOs having too many babies – too many mouths to feed – The world you’re leaving your precious kids is gonna be filled with large poisonous manure filled lagoons. The antibiotics meant to cure your little ones won’t work. Your kids will have clogged arteries, have diabetes and be obese. Yuk! bloody MEat – your welcome to use your stomache as the graveyard for carrion.
For me…. Glad to be a healthy, slim VEGAN.
I like muh cows fresh and mooing!
Leah, a bunch of us were out to eat one time, and one of the group ordered a steak “rare.” When it came out, it certainly was “rare,” to say the least. (Did they even turn the oven on?)
One guy piped up, “You could just slap a Band-Aid on it and send it back out to the pasture.” We laughed like heck.
Doug
Um, Bea:
VEGAN does not = healthy or slim
**Just b/c that’s your chosen diet does mean everyone who eats like you will be healthy or slim like you**
I eat meat (except porkchops, they’re gross). I am slim, and I am healthy.
Also, the last I checked eating meat and building an immunity to an antibiotic didnt really have anything to do with eachother.
And also, Diabetes can be inherited gentically as well, so dont automatically assume it’s a persons diet…
Doug:
I cant eat my meat rare, to bloody.
Although, I do love a steak medium-rare, Delicous!!
Hey Bea,
How are those pesticides/insecticides working out for you? You do realize that the soil that your precious veggies grow in is contaminated with a slough of harmful poisons, right?
Leah, a bunch of us were out to eat one time, and one of the group ordered a steak “rare.” When it came out, it certainly was “rare,” to say the least. (Did they even turn the oven on?)
One guy piped up, “You could just slap a Band-Aid on it and send it back out to the pasture.” We laughed like heck.
Teehee… sounds like Alberta humor to me.
Medium rare is the way to go. My boyfriend’s dad (a beef connoisseur, if you’ll believe it–that’s Alberta for you) is very much against well-done meat “It’s already dead–why kill it a second time?” Cheers to that.
I was a vegetarian for a year, back in grade… 9. I look at that as the Dark Ages of my life. LOTS of salad.
Good satire, Jill. I recognized it immediately, and the proabort responses have only added more facets to its brilliance.
(F)FF, you forfeited any right to be taken seriously as one who gives a crap about real suffering months ago with your cruel mockery of a woman who poured out her post-abortive pain on this site…among many other equally cruel, calloused comments you’ve posted. But you will go on living in your little fantasy world, where abortion is beautiful all the time, and pro-lifers are wrong all the time, won’t you, until you wake up, or grow up, whichever comes first? Meanwhile, I’m sure Jill, like me, is holding out hope but not her breath!
Abortion is by its nature dangerous for women, regardless of the circumstances under which children are conceived.
Abortion does not “unrape” a woman who has actually become pregnant by rape. Women who have conceived under those circumstances and chosen induced abortion have stated that they found the abortion to be a worse violation than the rape, adding more injury and insult to those of the rape. Women pregnant by rape who chose life have also testified that their life-affirming actions in the face of such degrading violence have helped them to heal emotionally from the trauma of the rape.
Legal abortion is a rapist’s best friend, especially if the rapist favors underage girls. It not only transfers the punishment from the perp to his victims, it obstructs justice for the rapist by having the star witness…the baby and his/her DNA…conveniently flushed down a disposal somewhere. Thus, pro-abortion/”choice” is pro-rape…which, like murder, is essentially anti-choice because disregards the will, and well-being, of the victim(s). Certainly a woman pregnant by rape or incest will have emotional, and likely other, needs that a woman pregnant by a mutually consentual act will not; but the danger, violation and trauma of abortion is not among them in any case.
JTMS,
Great post. Who opposes parental consent? Certainly one would support parental consent if for no other reason than to catch and stop child predators.
Midnite,
I’m sooo, sooo sorry. Chemo is rough. Is it doing any good, or is it too soon to tell? Are you “talking” to him like we said? You know I’m praying for him, and you. Does he practice a faith?
I’d say just hook a cow and a person up to an EEG, and then induce pain in both of them. The responses, both physically observable, and as far as brainwaves, won’t leave much doubt.
But Doug,
Then you would have to cause suffering to both the cow and the person…we wouldn’t want that.
And you still couldn’t prove that it was pain. Remember our cortisol in the fetuses? It would only prove that certain areas of the brain were activated, not that the cow was in “pain”…I suppose we could just ask them to point to the face that describes their pain the best…;)
Laura,
I think you should change your name from fetus fascist to cow fetishist.
When I think of you in that utility room with a dying pre-term infant for the hour you failed to demand treatment, failed to demand comfort measures, and failed to muster the ba**s to put an end to it’s suffering, I kind of figured you didn’t mind.
That kind of thing has never happened on my watch. In fact, that kind of inaction in the face of suffering would get me arrested and jailed for animal cruelty. A nurse is a mandatory reporter. Certainly you called 911 or filed a police report when the utility room incident occurred (if it occurred). You wouldn’t have any problem having your story corroborated by the other medical professionals you worked with, especially if they were deposed or testified under oath.
Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 12:02 PM
FF:
On a bender Laura? Your attempt at facetious humor fails again big time.
Why would Jill demand treatment? To quote your constant mantra: The mother paid good money for the privilege for her baby to suffer.
Failed to demand comfort measures?
Jill held that baby until it died. The laws that you support wouldn’t allow for anything else to be done. It would be against the laws you support to take extra measures. The bill that Jill was present when signed demands life saving treatment for these babies. Think Laura, think.
That kind of thing never happened on my watch?
You support this thing. This is the reality of abortion that you support. Finally nice to see you admit these babies suffer.
Arrested and jailed for animal cruelty?
So again you admit that the doctors’ who perform this murder should be arrested and jailed.
Call 911 or file a police report?
Why would Jill waste her time calling 911? You and your cronies support abortion and made it legal. What would the officer called to the scene do? Grab a doughnut off the tray in the break room and be on his way. No crime committed here FF.
Story corraborated?
You must really be on a bender. Think. Think.
The hospital management team publically admitted they perform induced abortion and weren’t going to end the practice.
Sandy,
Great post. One more point, the baby wasn’t supposed to be alive. It wasn’t born good and dead so now what do you do with it? Save its life? Let it die? Toss it aside, what?
One of the reasons PBA and late term D&X were invented was to make certain these little embarassments don’t happen.
Mary,
Quick question; how is it a “little embarassment”? When a PBA is performed, most woman are already showing. People they know will know that they are pregnant…
Enjoy the yuks, folks. I have never pretended that abortion isn’t sad, even tragic, or bloody in its results. But we always come back to the right of a woman to determine what happens with her body versus the rights of a fetus, entirely dependent on her for its life, and I steadfastly believe that the woman alone is qualified to make that decision.
Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference between rapidly ending a life, ANY life, and torturing a living thing.
No, folks, there is no contradiction here. I will continue to eat meat that I know to be ethically raised and slaughtered AND support a woman’s right to choose with a hefty appetite and a clean conscience, and consider myself more pro-life and pro-family than any of you so-called “pro-lifers” will ever be.
PS Have you taken your pro-life grandchildren to a slaughterhouse to show them where hamburger comes from, Jill?
Ray,
Have you taken your pro-life family to an abortion clinic to show them the killing and carneige that goes on there?
Midnite,
What Mary means is that the PBA and D&X procedures are done so there is no chance that the baby is born alive. Having the baby born alive is the “little embarassment”.
Ray,
Hamburgers? Ah, that’s nothin’. Have you seen where a hot dog comes from????
“But we always come back to the right of a woman to determine what happens with her body versus the rights of a fetus, entirely dependent on her for its life”
They always use the word “fetus” and “its” to make themselves feel better about their heinous and contemptable pro-abort stance.
St. Louisans, if there are any out there, should know there is a protest over Alberto Gonzales, here to speak tonight, and paid 35,000 bucks to speak there by WashU.
It’s at the Music Hall on Delmar at 5pm. A lot of us will be wearing orange jumpsuits. Hope to see you there!
Whatever, guys. I’m hungry.
Did anyone hear about the HUGE beef recall in California? Honestly, I’m wondering why beef is being shipped from California to Michigan (it was on the Detroit news, apparently), but I’m not going to question. However, I AM going to start asking where my meat comes from whenever I grocery shop in the States.
Alberta’s pretty safe.
“Where’s this beef come from?”
“Yonder pasture. Just killed it this morning.”
“I eat meat (except porkchops, they’re gross). I am slim, and I am healthy.”
Ah but I bet you don’t poop as much as we do.
Midnite,
Sandy is correct. I was being facetious. Its the living aborted baby that should be dead that’s “a little embarassment”.
Sandy,
Thank you
midnite,
My prayers are with your family if you need them.
Jess 4:02PM
I’m not touching that with a 10 foot pole.
Sandy, 3:38PM
In fact some years ago there was a woman abortion clinic manager who brought her 11y/o daughter to the clinic to witness abortions.
Mary, 4:06
Stop eating meat and animal by products for a few days and you’ll see what I mean. Trust me you’ll feel great.
Jess,
Thank you, but I’m a carnivore extraordinaire.
I literally crave meat.
Mary,
Was it bring your daughter to work day?
It would be interesting to ask her what she learned that day.
Ray –
“PS Have you taken your pro-life grandchildren to a slaughterhouse to show them where hamburger comes from, Jill?”
Many family members of mine are farmers. I Helped to behead many chickens and helped the cows get on the truck. Also watched a giant snapping turtle that was beheaded still move when you poked it with a stick (wonder if he was feeling pain? he was reacting.) Does that count? This was all before I was 7. Didn’t damage me in the least. My Mom grew up around farms and witnessed the same as me at a young age. She threw up the first time she witnessed an abortion as a Nurse.
After growing up I worked at veterinary hospitals and one was the 24 hour emergency vet hospital. I assisted a dog that had accidently gotten in front of a chainsaw and the side of the dog was gone to the rib cage. I helped to treat a dog that had an arrow stuck through his neck (Great Dane was mistaken for a dear during hunting season). I also assisted with many dogs and cats that were hit by cars, infested with maggots, slashed with a hunting knives, etc.. and I was also in charge of “Egor the Creamator”. Now that is not a pretty sight watching animals being creamated. And you haven’t smelled anything until you are assisting in surgery trying to save the life of a dog in the middle of bloat.
This first time I saw a video tape of an abortion I vomited and cannot get the image out of my head.
The animals I talk about but have to really think to remember what it looked like.
There’s a huge difference between watching an animal being slaughtered and watching a developing human being removed limb from limb. I know, I’ve seen them both. Have you?
Sandy,
No, she just routinely brought her daughter to the clinic. Usually on Saturday and school holidays so she wouldn’t miss school. Who says she wasn’t a conscientious mother?
The girl freely admitted to observing abortions.
Also watched a giant snapping turtle that was beheaded still move when you poked it with a stick (wonder if he was feeling pain? he was reacting.)
There you go, Valerie. That’s right – it was reflexive movement, not “feeling pain.”
Doug –
so is the cow, just reflexive movement.
You have never seen the EEG of a cow before have you? I have to say I about spit out my drink all over the computer when I read that.
Thats why I wrote what I did. It’s just too funny. The turtle pretty much only has a brain stem. We could have hooked that turtle up to an EEG and got a reading. oh wait, an EEG is set up to read the reactions of the scalp as well, not just the brain or brain stem in some cases. There is a characteristic difference between the skull, the scalp and the brain electrodes and they are messured together in order to get a reading. So, how exactly do we get an EEG reading of a fetus? Have you ever seen how many electrodes get hooked up for an EEG? The fact is, we cannot accurately measure the brain wave activities of a fetus. So, in order to be fair which is what science is, we would have to measure the pain reaction to a cow fetus with that of a human fetus. Now, for a control we could use the same EEG setup to measure the reactions of pain on an infant human and calf and all the way up to adult. Only then, will you be able to compare the two. I don’t think I have to think too hard on what we will find out.
Hi everyone! I know I’ve been missing a lot of good debates lately, hopefully I’ll be back in the whole swing of things soon. Speaking of pain, I’ve been in quite a bit since my accident, and been working hard to catch up with school and the like. I never realized how much a broken nose could mess with your whole system- chronic headaches, soreness, and clotting that makes it hard to breathe.
I miss you guys, hopefully I’ll be feeling better and get back to you soon!
Valerie: so is the cow, just reflexive movement.
No, it’s not. There are vocal signals, etc., not to mention the other obvious conscious responses.
……
You have never seen the EEG of a cow before have you? I have to say I about spit out my drink all over the computer when I read that.
I suggest you know darn well, mess or not, that the cow’s EEG would show conscious response.
……
Thats why I wrote what I did. It’s just too funny. The turtle pretty much only has a brain stem. We could have hooked that turtle up to an EEG and got a reading. oh wait, an EEG is set up to read the reactions of the scalp as well, not just the brain or brain stem in some cases. There is a characteristic difference between the skull, the scalp and the brain electrodes and they are messured together in order to get a reading.
Nope, the headless turtle isn’t going to have brainwaves, in the first place.
……
So, how exactly do we get an EEG reading of a fetus? Have you ever seen how many electrodes get hooked up for an EEG?
Well, this is another matter. We were talking about a cow.
……
The fact is, we cannot accurately measure the brain wave activities of a fetus. So, in order to be fair which is what science is, we would have to measure the pain reaction to a cow fetus with that of a human fetus.
Same song, second verse. We were talking about a cow. Pretending that conscious response is there in the unborn, only due to the impossibility of proving a negative, at certain stages, is one thing. Acting like the proof via observation and EEG on born subjects doesn’t matter is another.
……
Now, for a control we could use the same EEG setup to measure the reactions of pain on an infant human and calf and all the way up to adult. Only then, will you be able to compare the two. I don’t think I have to think too hard on what we will find out.
Yet again, the born are not the argument. Can the born cow feel pain? Of course.
Doug
Are they conscious or aware of what the pain is? Do they have any capability of discerning or understanding what the feeling is? Prove that their reactions are not merely reflexive, as a fish or a fly’s reaction to stimulus is, Doug.
You keep suggesting and suggesting, but I do not see any proof, Doug. You keep claiming an EEG reading will prove your point, but I don’t see you citing any sources which prove your point. Try searching the internet- I’m sure some animal rights society has tried it at some point- or at least something similar.
Prove that a cow has consciousness.
Thank you for again looking like a complete and total idiot.
Thank you for again sounding like a broken record.
Posted by: Bethany at February 19, 2008 11:00 AM
*********************
Youre right. Thats because Jill and you and most antichoicers make a concerted effort to remind everyone that you ARE idiots. If you’d stop working so hard to prove youre stupid then I wouldnt mention it. The attempt to be ‘clever’ and draw parallells made Jill look stupid and incompetent. That you think it IS clever shows what an idiot you are, yet again.
Youre right. Thats because Jill and you and most antichoicers make a concerted effort to remind everyone that you ARE idiots. If you’d stop working so hard to prove youre stupid then I wouldnt mention it. The attempt to be ‘clever’ and draw parallells made Jill look stupid and incompetent. That you think it IS clever shows what an idiot you are, yet again.
If we really are proving to the world that we are idiots, why does anyone need you to point it out?
Wouldn’t it already be obvious enough that you wouldn’t need to say anything?
I guess we’ll never know. lol
Hi Erin,
i hope your feeling better, I must of missed the news that you got into an accident.
Youre right. Thats because Jill and you and most antichoicers make a concerted effort to remind everyone that you ARE idiots. If you’d stop working so hard to prove youre stupid then I wouldnt mention it. The attempt to be ‘clever’ and draw parallells made Jill look stupid and incompetent. That you think it IS clever shows what an idiot you are, yet again.
If we really are proving to the world that we are idiots, why does anyone need you to point it out?
Wouldn’t it already be obvious enough that you wouldn’t need to say anything?
I guess we’ll never know. lol
Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 1:05 PM
***************************
Because you cant come to terms with what idiots you are. And thats the point. Lots of people do realize how idiotic a typical antichoice argument is – the moronic ‘analogy’ Jill just came up with is one example. But to you the idiocy is incomprehensible. You think its ‘clever’. That’s because youre so very stupid.
Are they conscious or aware of what the pain is? Do they have any capability of discerning or understanding what the feeling is? Prove that their reactions are not merely reflexive, as a fish or a fly’s reaction to stimulus is, Doug.
You keep suggesting and suggesting, but I do not see any proof, Doug. You keep claiming an EEG reading will prove your point, but I don’t see you citing any sources which prove your point. Try searching the internet- I’m sure some animal rights society has tried it at some point- or at least something similar.
Prove that a cow has consciousness.
Posted by: Bethany at February 20, 2008 6:59 AM
***********************
Thank you Bethany. You prove my point that youre an idiot.
I don’t think I have to think too hard on what we will find out.
Posted by: valerie at February 19, 2008 5:13 PM
***************
No, you dont think. And youre not capable of thinking ‘too hard’. This whole ‘approach’, this whole moronic attempt at ‘drawing parallells’ has made antichoicers look incredibly stupid. I appreciate that a great deal.
TR,
I have a great idea for you. (Well, maybe it’s not because I’m probably a stupid idiot also)
Why don’t you & Sally, since you both think that all pl’ers here are idiots, start IM’ing each other, or start your own “smart-people” blog. That way, you can have an intelligent conversation between the two of you, and not have to deal with all of the stupidity here. We’ll go on without you, and hopefully, one day, we’ll all wake up and see things the way you do so we can be just as intelligent as you are. Then, you can come back and be the joyful self that I’m sure you really are, and share with us the sheer happiness you feel because we’ve finally worked our way up to your expectations.
Seeya never?
High five, JLM!
Right back atcha, Bethany!
:)
TR,
You seem to be having a very emotional reaction to Jill’s article. Did something about it just sound a little too familiar?
Then you would have to cause suffering to both the cow and the person…we wouldn’t want that.
MK, yeah, I guess so.
…..
And you still couldn’t prove that it was pain. Remember our cortisol in the fetuses? It would only prove that certain areas of the brain were activated, not that the cow was in “pain”
We’re talking about born cows, right? I don’t think proof would be an issue. The cow feeling pain would be clear to see.
Are they conscious or aware of what the pain is? Do they have any capability of discerning or understanding what the feeling is? Prove that their reactions are not merely reflexive, as a fish or a fly’s reaction to stimulus is, Doug.
Bethany, I think you know that cows can feel pain, as can dogs, cats, etc. Just as born human babies after full-term pregnancies can, and as can preemies that have been gestated long enough.
……
You keep suggesting and suggesting, but I do not see any proof, Doug. You keep claiming an EEG reading will prove your point, but I don’t see you citing any sources which prove your point. Try searching the internet- I’m sure some animal rights society has tried it at some point- or at least something similar.
Again, I think it’s a meaningless point. I don’t think you doubt it, in the first place.
……
Prove that a cow has consciousness.
Depends on what kind of consciousness you mean – obviously the cow has some but not as much as people.
Bethany, I think you know that cows can feel pain, as can dogs, cats, etc. Just as born human babies after full-term pregnancies can, and as can preemies that have been gestated long enough.
Well, there’s an argument, Doug!
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander though:
I think you know that unborn babies can feel pain, just as dogs, cats, etc.
18 DaysBrain
The brain begins to take shape
only 18 days after conception. By
20 days, the brain has already
differentiated into forebrain,
midbrain, and hindbrain, and the
spinal cord has started to
grow.(1)
!
5 Weeks Pain Receptors
Four or five weeks after
conception,pain receptors appear
around the mouth, followed by
nerve fibers, which carry stimuli
to the brain. By 18 weeks, pain
receptors
have app eared
throughout the body. Around
week 6, the unborn child first
responds to touch.(2, 3)
!
6 Weeks Cortex
In weeks 6-18, the cerebral cortex
develops. By 18 weeks the cortex
has a full complement of neurons.
In adults, the cortex has been
recognized as the center of pain
consciousness.(3)
!
8 Weeks Thalamus
During weeks 8-16, the
thalamusdevelops, functioning as
the main relay center in the brain
for sensory impulses going from
the spinal cord to the cortex
14-18 Wks Nerve Tracts
In week 18, nerve tracts
connectingthe spinal cord and the
thalamus are established, and
nerves from the thalamus first
contact the cortex in week 20.
Nerve fibers not routed through
thethalamus have already reached
the cortex by 14 weeks. (3,4)
!
18 Wks Stress Hormones
As early as 18 weeks, stress
hormonesarereleasedbyanunborn
childinjectedbyaneedle,justasthey
arewhen adults feelpain.Hormone
levels in those babies decrease as
pain-relievers are supplied.(7)
!
Before 18 Weeks?
Even before nerve tracts are
fully established, the unborn child
may feel pain; studies show
anencephalic infants,whose cortex
is severelyreduced ifnot altogether
missing, may experience pain as
long as other neurological
structures are functioning.(6)
!
20WksAllParts in Place
With pain receptors,spinal cord,
nerve tracts,thalamus,andcortexin
place,allanatomicallinksneededfor
pain transmission to the brain, for
feeling pain, are present.
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/FetalPain091604.pdf
Around
week 6, the unborn child first
responds to touch.(2, 3)
!
how does the unborn child respond to touch if he/she cannot feel?
studies show
anencephalic infants,whose cortex
is severelyreduced ifnot altogether
missing, may experience pain as
long as other neurological
structures are functioning.
And what are your thoughts on this one?
Bethany,
There is so much about the brain and nervous system we are only beginning to understand in those already born, much less the unborn.
Any claims of the unborn being unable to sense pain in the earliest stages of development are speculation or just lack of any ability at this time to determine otherwise.
Time and again “experts” have been proven wrong on the brain, nervous system, pain perception, awareness, etc. The more we learn the less we know. New answers only raise more unanswered questions.
Years ago women maintained their unborn children responded to alarm clocks, the mother’s emotional states, commotion, etc. only to be told by patronizing male doctors who “knew” this couldn’t be possible that it was “in their heads”. Imagine women being so uppity as to think they might actually know something about unborn children.
Premature babies were subjected to surgery without anesthesia because “experts” were so certain they had no pain perception.
I don’t know if you’ve read my favorite accounts of a young man we “knew” was vegetative and were sending him to a nursing home in the morning after months of maintenance care and no obvious improvement. He had pulled out a tube that went from his nose to his stomach and we spoke of how this would have to be reinserted. The young man distinctly said “SH**!”. He obviously heard, understood, and had a definite opinion. He was transferred instead to rehab where after several months, he was discharged after a remarkable recovery.
“Bethany, I think you know that cows can feel pain, as can dogs, cats, etc. Just as born human babies after full-term pregnancies can, and as can preemies that have been gestated long enough.”
Bethany: Well, there’s an argument, Doug!
Should I go, “Hoo-Aah” or what? ; )
……
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander though:
I think you know that unborn babies can feel pain, just as dogs, cats, etc.
It’s not that simple. After a point in gestation, they can, but prior to that point they cannot, same as for embryonic and fetal dogs, cats, etc.
20Wks All Parts in Place With pain receptors,spinal cord, nerve tracts, thalamus, andcortexin place, allanatomical links neededf orpain transmission to the brain, for
feeling pain, are present.
That isn’t true, though. The function of the cortex and its connections with the thalamus are not complete and operational enough yet. In some fetuses, by the weeks in the mid-20s an argument can be made for it, but not really at 20 weeks.
Years ago women maintained their unborn children responded to alarm clocks, the mother’s emotional states, commotion, etc. only to be told by patronizing male doctors who “knew” this couldn’t be possible that it was “in their heads”. Imagine women being so uppity as to think they might actually know something about unborn children.
Mary, if the doctors know or not, the physical reality of response is one thing.
Not able to prove the negative of “no feeling” is quite another. If there is no response there, then at the very least the burden of proof is on those who would assert that feeling is there.
Doug
Doug,
Who would know better than the pregnant woman if her unborn child is responding to an outside stimuli? Imagine women actually knowing anything about this.
Imagine that, Mary!