The fact that lesbianism cannot lead directly to abortion might seem to indicate that those wanting to reduce abortion should applaud it.
Usually they oppose it. Why is that?
~Denise Noe, Mens News Daily, January 4
Violations will be deleted and you may be banned.
Threats will be immediately reported to authorities.
Following these rules will make everyone's experience visiting JillStanek.com better.
Our volunteer moderators make prudent judgment calls to provide an open forum to discuss these issues. They reserve the right to remove any comment for any reason. Jill's decisions on such moderations are final.
Go to gravatar.com to create your avatar.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The answer to ending abortion is not to cast aside heterosexual relations. Further, just because a woman is currently in a homosexual relationship, she has likely had a heterosexual relationship in the past and may again in the future. Many self proclaimed lesbians have had abortions.
“…as the consequences of heterosexuality may close about her like a trap closing about the paw of an animal.”
Noe makes quite a few statements like this in her rant, pointing us to her obvious bias against heterosexuality. Like this little ‘gem’:
“Thus, it may appear important to put in cultural incentives for women to choose the more dangerous heterosexuality because the same form of sex that leads to reproductive horrors also leads to the reproduction necessary for species and cultural survival.”
Yeah, because it’s not like woman and men are actually attracted to each other…or that as mammals we are biologically inclined to love our children. Naw, we’re just blindly caving into social pressure when we’d all rather be gay. Lol!!!
If you are pro-life, you are pro-life on all levels. Abortion, contraception, masturbation, homosexuality, and other illicit sexual acts are all intentionally closed to life, and therefore anti-life.
I found it interesting that, unlike most other pro-gay articles I’ve read, this article appears to lean toward the “choice” view toward homosexuality as opposed to the “I was born that way” mentality.
I really, really wish that prolifers would leave gay people alone.
Yes, I do too, Phillymiss.
Please, please stop equating homosexuality with abortion. Please stop terrorizing and dehumanizing and judging the gay community. It’s bullying, it’s unfair, and it’s not even related to the issue of abortion, no matter how hard you TRY to make it relate. I am pro-life–against abortion to my core–and I am PRO GAY RIGHTS. Period. That is the true pro-life stance. LIVE AND LET LIVE.
We cannot say to people “Don’t abort your children” and then tell them “Live the way we tell you to.” Not everyone is Christian. Not everyone thinks the way you do. Abortion is the most egregrious and heinous thing in the history of humanity; homosexuality is NOT. Let’s work on saving the babies, not trying to make everyone exactly the same.
Please read Noe’s whole article.
I read the article. I don’t blame the gay community for being angry with pro-lifers. I’m angry with pro-lifers for being so nasty to gay people. Their anger is justified. They are attacked CONSTANTLY. No wonder they don’t like us. No, I’m sorry, the religious pro-lifers started this, NOT the gay community.
Maybe if most gay people would just quietly live their life without shoving it down my throat, trying to force me to accept, and call normal, their sexual deviance, then maybe I would be a little more open to them. I’m very pro-life, I personally don’t give TOO much of a care about whether someone is gay or not, but I do care when it starts to affect MY quality of life by having laws forced upon me that tells me that I can’t say exactly what my Bible teaches me about homosexuality or the right to teach my children what the Bible teaches will be taken from me because these stupid social justice freaks want to brainwash my children into believing that homosexuality is normal.
Live and let live? Tell that to the homosexuals. When they can live in a manner where their sexual life isn’t on full display and when they stop DEMANDING special rights and privileges based off how the have sex… THEN I won’t care a whit.
Excuse me, what? As an artist, I live within the heart of the gay community. Nobody shoves anything down anyone’s throat. I think that’s just prejudice talking. What is this idea that ALL gay people are flamboyant and pushy? All my gay friends–ALL of them–are quiet, humble, generous, funny, intelligent, trustworthy, and I would trust them with my life.
I think the right-wing Christian pro-life community is the one shoving their beliefs down people’s throats. “I don’t care if anyone is gay, just don’t do it in front of me”??? What is that? It’s not like the gay community has illicit sex in public all the time. And frankly, they’ve been oppressed and judged for so many years, my word, can you even IMAGINE living like that?
“Slaves are not persons, they have no rights. How dare they ask for equality.”
“The unborn are not persons, how dare the pro-life community give them rights that don’t exist.”
“The gay community is evil and wants special treatment. But they are a bunch of sinners and are not as righteous as we are, how dare they ask for equality.”
“Brunettes are sub-human and it’s evil to be a brunette. How dare they ask for equality.”
The gay community WANTS to live just like us….To work, to live, to love, to help, to be a part of society. How is that shoving ANYTHING down ANYONE’S throat? They don’t want “special” treatment. They want equality. Until the pro-life and uber-religious community stops telling them that there is something wrong with them, then maybe they’ll back off. In fact, I’m almost positive the gay community would back off. But nope, religious pro-lifers torments and judge them, over and over and over. No, I side with the gay community on this one.
Save the BABIES, and please leave the gay community alone. Step off, already.
With all due respect, Phillmiss, it is the gay community that has allied itself with the pro-choice crowd and voting together in mutual affirmation of one another’s agendas.
It was the homosexual community in New York City 21 years ago that descended on St. Patrick’s Cathedral and desecrated the Cathedral and the Eucharist because Cardinal O’Connor would not promote condoms and would not promote abortion. I wrote a four-part series on this time period and all of the cross-currents:
http://gerardnadal.com/2009/12/23/of-cardinals-cathedrals-condoms-and-cretins-part-i/
Part I links to all the others. The issues are not so compartmentalized as people would think. There is within the gay community a belief that if one does not embrace homophilia, then one is guilty of homophobia. This extends itself to a faithful Christian witness regarding marriage and sexual morality, which encompasses traditional sexual mores, including abortion.
I was there when my Cathedral was desecrated, when my Cardinal was repeatedly called a scumbag for not promoting condoms, which were constantly being recalled by FDA and CDC for defects.
No, the war is on against Catholicism, Evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity, precisely because of the life and marriage issue. Those shooting at you (literally or metaphorically) are by definition your adversary.
When the gay community drops this notion that those who hew to the Scriptures are the enemy, when they stand and denounce abortion as a human rights disaster, when they call upon the feminists to denounce the slaughter of innocents and refuse to vote their way, when they can agree to disagree without hurling “homophobe” about like rice at a wedding, when they call upon Canada to lift the laws that lead to clergy being arrested for faithfully preaching the bible regarding sodomy, when they practice the “tolerance” and “inclusivity” they preach, then we’ll have a different reality on the ground. But, until that day comes let’s not fool ourselves. They stand against the pro-life movement and the Christian moral norms that give the movement its life and breath.
Dr. Nadal, to look at one horrible incident as proof of the behavior of an entire community is the same as the pro-abortion community doing that to us, when so-called “pro-lifers” murder abortionists.
The only war I see going on is a war against ignorance—-Ignorance towards the life of the unborn, ignorance towards the gay community, ignorance towards people who differ from the white male patriarchy. I’m sorry, Dr. Nadal, but though I love your writings about abortion; your views on the homosexual community is skewed and biased. You are referring to an extremist fringe, and it is NOT representative of the entire community.
Mary Lee,
5,000 people are not “fringe”, and I believe that In just referenced an entire philosophy and political movement beyond that one day. BTW, that one day culminated three years of weekly Mass disruptions at St. Patrick’s Cathedral.
The “rest of the community”, as you reference, does nothing to denounce “the fringe”. The silence is deafening. The gay community votes overwhelmingly Democrat, and supports those who support abortion. Thats because those who support abortion support “gay rights”.
So what do we have? A community that accepts the wholesale slaughter of babies (53 million) as an acceptable trade-off to get what they want. That’s the ugly truth, and you can’t try to shame me with allegations of ignorance, bias, skewed perspective, or any other such thing.
The gay alliance with supporters of the crime of prenatal homicide is an affront to human decency and morality, as well as representing a fatal blunder on the part of the homosexual community. The gays, who feel oppressed by society, should join with us in the unborn human rights movement to defeat the abortionists and stop them destroying the most oppressed of all human beings, our unborn children, the future of the human race.
If they ever develop a prenatal test for homosexuality, the abortionists will ruthlessly exterminate unborn gays by the millions and the homosexual community will bitterly regret the day they ever formed such an inhuman alliance with such a hideous movement. By then, it will be much too late.
Dr. Nadal, I am not trying to shame you. I am trying to help you. 5,000 homosexuals IS a fringe. There are millions upon millions of gay people. As for being extremists…..The pro-aborts can say the same things about us. Abortion does not exist because of the gay community. The gay community as a whole is not extremist and violent. They are discriminated against by religious communities, the way the unborn are discriminated against by pro-aborts. The reason the gay community aligns itself (in general, not entirely) with the pro-abortion community is because 1) the pro-abortion community accepts them and does not ask them to “try to be straight” and “Christian” and 2) the pro-abortion community feels that pro-lifers are trying to oppress WOMEN, which is something they gay community will not stand for. Obviously, the pro-aborts are wrong…..though, there are some chauvinistic pro-lifers. No community is perfect; it is comprised of people, all of us with faults.
The greatest problem we have right now is the slaughter of the unborn babies in the name of “choice.” You can try all you want to show that all gay people are evil and sick and wrong, but they are not. They are just people. There is no “they”….there is only “US.” All of us, all human beings with the right to live. That goes for the gay community, and the unborn. Until the pro-life community sees that there is “US” as a whole, then perhaps the pro-abortion will see the unborn as part of “US” too. There will be no peace until abortion is rejected; and until all human beings are seen as equal and valued.
Whoa, y’all. Does it really matter “who started it?” Who cares? Why is it important?
Gay rights are one issue. Abortion is another. Trying to marry the two politically, regardless of whether you see a personal connection or not, is obviously a recipe for trouble. Is it really so difficult to campaign against abortion without bringing up homosexuality? Honestly, how hard could it be?
Alice,
It matters a great deal that Christianity has been targeted. It tells us the nature of the conflict. Mary Lee tells us so with
“The gay community as a whole is not extremist and violent. They are discriminated against by religious communities, the way the unborn are discriminated against by pro-aborts. “
Sorry Mary Lee, but that is a sick and disgusting slur. Have 53 million gays been pulled apart, limb by limb?
Had scissors jabbed into the backs of their skulls and their brains sucked out?
Drowned in hypertonic saline solution?
Sucked into a suasage grinder?
That’s typical pro-gay polemics, conflating fidelity to Scriptural moral norms with butchering babies. Shame on you.
There you have it Alice. That’s what we’re up against.
The unspeakable crimes which the abortionists commit against our unborn brothers and sisters every day of our lives go far beyond anything ever done, even in Biblical times, to anyone in the gay community.
Dr. Nadal, how is that a sick and digusting slur? The gays have been lynched, tormented, beaten to death, ridiculed, abused and tortured for ages. I am saying that the discrimination is the same—the devaluing of an entire community. The execution of those discriminations are different, obviously. I don’t understand what you’re trying to tell me. I’ve done my research. I know what abortion is. I know how sick it is, how unnecessary. It is the most awful thing in existence.
But religious pro-lifers dehumanize and devalue gay people the way pro-aborts dehumanize and devalue the unborn. How you cannot see that is beyond me. I am not trying to call you names….But your anger towards the gay community is unsettling, and rather off-putting. While you could be using your intelligence and integrity to save babies, and try to make peace in the world, you are instead fighting with me about gay people. What is that about? Why? How is that going to help the babies? Seriously? The gay community is not a problem. They are not guilty in the slaughter of millions of babies. They are just trying to live their lives without being viewed as second-class citizens or worse.
“Up against” Dr. Nadal? Who are you? No, I used to have a lot of respect for you. But your hatred towards the gay community overshadows any good you might do for the pro-life community. I am pro-life, through and through. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT. I am against abortion with every fiber of my being. I am also saddened by anti-gay rhetoric, and the fact that religious pro-lifers cannot separate the two. I am not completely Godless. I have been going through my own conversion. I am not your enemy, Dr. Nadal, but you seem to think that I am yours, because I believe gay people are just people and are not going to be the downfall of humanity.
Abortion, however, is disgusting and frightening, it is based on lies, it is based on selfishness and it disregards science, logic, reason, and love.
I have many gay friends. One of them teaches a graduate level course on human sexuality. One day, he asked me to look over some things, to proofread for him and in doing so he gave me a copy of his entire teaching plan, week by week.
Guess what he’s teaching? Go on, guess.
He’s teaching, in a classroom setting, that heterosexuality is not normal, that it is the result of social conditioning. Do you fully understand?
It’s true that we all know great folks who happen to be gay. They are not the ones who are doing all the damage. But it’s also true that the gay activists have been actively, covertly, and overtly waging a battle against heterosexuality, especially childbirth.
Self-proclaimed lesbians were not on the fringe of the pro-abortion movement, they were in the vanguard.
So, I echo what another commenter said: Get on board with being pro-life. Those of us who are middle aged or older know a lot better what’s been going on for the last few decades than people in their twenties. WE have witnessed with our very own eyes. I am not homophobic, but I dare not even tell my gay friends what I really think about their involvement in the abortion holocaust.
Do I fully understand? Because one gay friend is teaching a course about homosexuality being a result of “social conditioning”? ….Even though my gay friends and family members were BORN GAY. We knew my young cousin was gay before he entered elementary school. Nobody encouraged it; in fact, they tried to steer him towards a straight lifestyle. Now he is 30, and he is happy, healthy, and gay, and living a pretty normal life. He has a job. He loves his mother. He is generous and funny and kind.
The point is this: Stop making the gay community your enemy. Stop judging them. Stop equating homosexuality with abortion. You don’t have to fight for gay rights. You don’t even have to condone homosexuality. BUT PLEASE separate the two. They are TWO. SEPARATE. ISSUES.
Religious pro-lifers do NOT “dehumanize and devalue” gay people the way the abortionists “dehumanize and devalue” the unborn. Religious people are supposed to “love the sinner and hate the sin” (and they usually do). Agree or disagree, the fact is that pro-life Christians are trying to save homosexuals from what they consider to be a sinful life.
Gays have been abused in the past, even by Christians, but they have never been subjected to the horrendous violence which the abortionists inflict daily on helpless innocent unborn children, who are human beings just like us, and who are guilty of nothing more than simply trying to live their lives as every one of us lived ours.
Love the sinner and hate the sin? What about “judge not lest you be judged”? What about the Bible telling us how to sell our daughters into slavery, and telling us not to eat pork? Yes, the gay community IS devalued and dehumanized by the religious pro-life community. Who are we, who is ANYONE to judge them? Pride is a far more diabolical sin than being gay. Pride is the most diabolical sin of all, and pride is what many religious pro-lifers have in spades. I doubt my gay librarian friend–who gives his money to charity, speaks 4 languages, prays daily, and, frankly, saved my life when I was at my lowest–is more “sinful” than anyone else in the world. He is, in fact, probably far less sinful than most.
Please, please, please not this again.
Mary Lee,
Thank you for standing up for gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, or transgendered men and women. I’ll toss in my support- you don’t have to hold your ground alone.
This is the problem, the disconnect in the pro-life community: how we approach the issue. To some, it’s an issue of “Abortion is a threat to Christianity because it cheapens life. Therefore homosexuality, where individuals cannot naturally reproduce, is also a threat because it cheapens life.”
But to others, myself included, it’s more of a matter of, “Equal rights, nothing more and nothing less. Equal rights for children, the LGBAT community, women, disabled men and women, all ethnicities, all socio-economic classes…”
If you are a part of Group A of pro-lifers, then gay rights are seen as evil and a problem. But it’s not going to work. There will be equality for the LGBAT community- the next few generations will see to that. And the pro-life fight will go down in flames if you continue to equate the two.
We can’t make anyone support LGBAT rights, but we can continue to speak up so that all people, LGBAT men and women included, understand that we should be fighting for equal rights and not sexual purity.
LOL – I can almost predict with pinpoint accuracy the people who are going to suddenly show up again any time anything related to homosexuality gets posted on this blog. Hi there, welcome back! :D
It would help me out in this discussion if instead of using the term “gay rights” you could tell me exactly which “gay rights” you are referring to. To me, it’s as confusing/obfuscating as “abortion rights.” Thank you.
Gerard Nadal says:
January 5, 2011 at 11:31 am
I usually agree with you a lot, but in this case I have to sharply disagree. Especially since “what we’re up against,” in terms of ending abortion, are the pro-abortion forces who are backing the practice. That there are gays in that group is indisputable, just as it is indisputable that there are gay pro-lifers. Homosexuality is not part of that debate.
And…well, of course Christianity is targeted. It’s always been targeted. It always will be targeted. If Christians are not making non-Christians mad, we’re not doing our jobs properly. Luke 6: 22, John 3: 20, John 15: 18-20, John 16: 33, I Cor. 1: 23, II Tim. 3: 12-13, and on, and on, and on. Christianity is supposed to be targeted. Even aside from the whole the-boss-of-the-world-hates-us-because-our-boss-has-beaten-him thing, there’s the part where telling people they are sinners and on their way to Hell is inherently offensive and angering. This will always be a constant.
And that can be the case without Christians targeting, deliberately hurting, discriminating, othering, or vilifying any group of people, gays included. It’s not like the Christian position on gays is a big secret or anything. And of course, any gay person would be at least annoyed by it. It’s only logical. That does not mean gays can’t be pro-life, or that pro-life Christians must attack gays to be pro-life themselves.
Gee Mary Lee, if it’s just one person, where the heck did he get his textbooks and other teaching material? Out of thin air? From a cracker jack box? Noe’s article and his course dovetail nicely. It is just as wrong for you to generalize that all gay people are sweet and wonderful and harmless, as it to generalize that all Phillipino women make docile housewives. Lol! It’s stereotyping. I even know gay men who hate show tunes, lol! Gay people have all the same problems we do, including character and morality issues. They’re equal alright, and not better. And while it’s God’s job to judge us, I can see who zealously promoted abortion and who didn’t.
Hi Kel!
Ninek, I didn’t say ALL gay people were sweet and docile. Yes, there are going to be many books written on many different subjects because we live in a world full of people trying to prove points. I never said they were BETTER than we are. I am saying I know many gay people who ARE better than some of the straight people I know. There are nasty straight people, and nasty gay people. There are mean pro-lifers and nice pro-aborts. There are stupid people and smart people. I don’t understand how equating the GAY COMMUNITY as a guilty party, complicit in the slaughter of babies (at the hands of the straight community)…..I refuse to see the gay community as below me simply because I am straight. Even in this conversion (some semblance of Christianity) in my life, I refuse to see my atheist friends as people to be pitied. We all can learn from each other. Enough already.
Here’s an example (though hardly as heated or loaded)….We have this idea that the English are stuffy and reserved and proper. We have this idea that they aren’t warm and are snobby. When I lived in England, I found this to be quite untrue; they are warm, and silly, and funny, and I love them. England is a lot more fun and a lot less stuffy than I thought it would be, and I miss it every day. Are ALL English people warm and kind? No. There are lots of terrible terrible people, of every race, nationality, creed, orientation….And there are lots of wonderful ones, too.
Gay rights is not the same as abortion rights. Women’s rights is something that we needed to fight for (EXCLUDING so-called “abortion” rights). Animal rights are important. Fetal rights are also something we need to fight for. The rights of the elderly, the rights of the disabled. Gay rights simply means….being able to be a normal citizen without being attacked; being able to put one’s partner on their insurance, etc. There are a lot of rights. It is sad, though, that the pro-abortion community has made the words “rights” and “choice” such awful, awful words.
If the abortionists are killing gay unborn children after they discover a gay gene, it will be pro-life people, Christian and otherwise, who will be trying to save them from death.
Yes, Joe, and that is something that I wish most pro-abortion gay people understood.
Mary Lee, I see your point even if I do not agree. The problem I have is that if gay people were pro-life then they would speak out against the murder of children whether the pro-life “community” embraced them wholly or not. I am against the abortion of black children (Maafa 21) even if some of those black babies would grow up to be racist black panthers who threaten to murder my “cracker” baby. My moral views remain unchanged whether accepted by others or not.
But maybe thats because they are based on the Word of God which does not change. I have gay friends. I love them as my friends. But they know I do NOT view their homosexuality as normal and I do NOT support that lifestyle. I have never minced words over that, they know and they accept. I accept them as people that I love even if I don’t agree with that aspect of their lives.
This wasn’t some attack on homosexuals by pro-lifers. This was a pro-choicer trying to link the ideas. And shame on homosexuals supporting the murder of children just because their feelings are hurt by pro-lifers! SHAME!
I wasn’t suggesting “abortion rights” and “gay rights” were the same thing. I was just saying when we use those terms, I think it gets confusing as to what we’re all referring. For me it does, anyway.
I agree that no person – gay, straight, black, white, whatever – should be attacked or be the victim of violence in any way. Gays ARE “normal citizens.” And in my opinion, they should be able to put their partners on their insurance. But if you are speaking about “gay marriage,” that’s where we part ways. I have never understood why the homosexual community is pushing for the right to “marry” someone since marriage is so much a religious institution. That is where I believe a big part of the pushback against the homosexual lobby lies. Those of us who are of the Christian faith do not seek to marginalize these people – however, we know that according to our faith (and according to how many thousands of years of recorded history?) marriage is the cornerstone of the family in which children are produced and raised to adulthood. We know that biologically, men and women were created to reproduce with one another. (Should infertility occur, we know that this is an aberration from the normal, healthy functioning of two compatible reproductive systems.)
I do not have anything personal against gay people. I have often wondered, however, why on earth the large part of their community are pro-choice.
What about PLAGAL? Pro Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians….They are shunned by the pro-life community all the time. They are told to leave marches, because they are GAY. Instead of embracing the pro-life gay community (it exists and it is more powerful than you think), we judge all gay people, make gross generalizations, condemn them, and so, yes, why would they want to help us, since we treat them so badly? I wouldn’t want to belong to such a group either. I believe that abortion needs to be stopped; but it is the bigotry against the gay community that makes me sad. It is hurting our cause, it is hurting it deeply.
I’ve been going to church all the time. I still cannot find it in my heart to condemn the gay community. So be it.
And yes, so a pro-choicer is trying to link ideas….that is what we should be doing. We aren’t going to change hearts if we get defensive when someone poses a question or an idea. We can’t suddenly go off on anti-gay rants and Bible passages ….what is that? No wonder they think we’re crazy.
Kel,
I define gay rights as this:
1). Freedom from threat of violence. I’ve read more than once in the past few years of women who are openly lesbian being sexually assaulted to “teach them.” Gay men and women have been attacked, threatened with violence, or thrown out of their homes. Think of the story of Angie Zapata- she was a transgendered woman who was murdered after it was revealed that she was transgendered.
We can’t stop people from saying anything homophobic. We can’t. It’s a freedom of speech issue. But we can work to pass hate crime laws, and we can as a society object to orientation-based slurs in the same way that there is public outrage over anyone making racist or sexist comments. We can educate the public and teach love not hate.
2). Gay marriage. It’s legal in some states. But we’ve got a ways to go to make it legal in all states.
3). Gay adoption. It shouldn’t matter the sexual orientation of the couple adopting. Gay men and women should be allowed to adopt so long as they are fit to adopt, the same for straight couples. I’m not familiar with the background checks and legal paperwork that goes on for couples seeking to adopt, but it should be the same for gay couples as it is for heterosexual couples.
4). Education. Classes that explain sexuality and sexual health should offer just as comprehensive a lesson for gay men and women. Essentially, all people ought to know what sex is, what birth control is, what STDs are and so on and so forth.
5). Gay military service. DADT was just repealed. I was very happy. :)
Nothing too major. I might be forgetting something. But in general, it’s things that acknowledge and support the equality of all people. It’s not shoving “gayness” down anyone’s throats. It’s not forcing people to be gay or get married to someone of the same gender. It’s just saying, “These men and women are human beings, too. They deserve equality.”
Mary Lee,
Two things: One, the course ninek refers to states that HETEROsexuality is a result of social conditioning and is not normal. By inference, that means the course proclaims that HOMOsexuality is the norm if it weren’t for those darn social mores. I mean, basic human biology and physiology refute that.
Two, the thing is, the push for homosexual “equality” and abortion do have a connection. They both have a direct tie to the rejection of the nature and meaning of human sexuality and of the family as the fundamental building block of society. As much as modern society wants to ignore it, sexuality at its core unites the two engaging in relations and is directed toward the propogation of life. That is the norm. While it stings to hear, homosexuality is an abnormal orientation- it is simply outside the norm.
I feel for gays who struggle with their orientations. It is a cross and burden that I cannot comprehend. And yes, there have been times in the past and present when gays have been persecuting for simply being. That is wrong and unacceptable, for gays are just as much human and made in the image of God as any unborn child. With that said, I will continue to support traditional marriage and will fight all efforts of recognizing any relationship (heterosexual domestic partnerships or homosexual) as its equivalent.
Mary Lee, no one here is being “defensive” as in “Omigosh! I can’t believe that someone has a different idea about homosexuality than me!” Really, the only one I see that in is you. You’re the one getting “defensive” and telling people to “step off”. Not very effective, I think, in changing hearts, either.
1). Freedom from threat of violence. I’ve read more than once in the past few years of women who are openly lesbian being sexually assaulted to “teach them.” Gay men and women have been attacked, threatened with violence, or thrown out of their homes.
And this is clearly WRONG. No one should be treated this way.
We can’t stop people from saying anything homophobic. We can’t. It’s a freedom of speech issue. But we can work to pass hate crime laws, and we can as a society object to orientation-based slurs in the same way that there is public outrage over anyone making racist or sexist comments.
But Vannah, we don’t have hate crimes laws against people who only beat up women, for example. And I hate that word “homophobic.” It’s been twisted so many different ways it can mean whatever we want it to mean now. I am not AFRAID of gay people. That is what homoPHOBic implies. I don’t know anyone who has a FEAR of gays. We do however object to the advancement of what we see as an extreme agenda which seeks to tear down the traditional nuclear family, in some cases.
2). Gay marriage. It’s legal in some states. But we’ve got a ways to go to make it legal in all states.
I already stated my position on this.
3). Gay adoption. It shouldn’t matter the sexual orientation of the couple adopting. Gay men and women should be allowed to adopt so long as they are fit to adopt, the same for straight couples. I’m not familiar with the background checks and legal paperwork that goes on for couples seeking to adopt, but it should be the same for gay couples as it is for heterosexual couples.
It isn’t the same because most people do see homosexuality as an aberration from the normal, nuclear family. I’m not really “for” gays or even single parents adopting, but I’m also not “against” them adopting, either. If someone can give a child a better life in this less-than-ideal world, that’s a good thing. However, it seems that statistically, the majority of at least male homosexual relationships are not known to be long-lasting (less than traditional marriages), which can, of course, affect the status of the adopted child. I don’t know if any psychological studies/research have been done on gay adoptive families, so I don’t know all the reasoning behind these laws.
4). Education. Classes that explain sexuality and sexual health should offer just as comprehensive a lesson for gay men and women. Essentially, all people ought to know what sex is, what birth control is, what STDs are and so on and so forth.
Gays don’t have to worry about birth control. STDs, yes. Birth control, no. Can you explain to me what you think should be taught differently in a gay/lesbian sex ed class than what’s taught in a typical sex ed class? I’m not sure what you mean. Also, if we’re being honest, we need to admit that gay male sexual behavior in particular is HUGELY risky.
Here is a link to an article (yes, from the religious community, because no one else will admit to any risks): http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html
phillymiss, Mary Lee, Vannah-I have been involved in prolife over 25 years and I stand with you in full support of LGBT people and their rights.
Hatred and prejudice towards LGBT people actually *causes* abortions. Young LGBT people especially feel intense pressures to act as if they are straight, end up taking risks with heterosexual sex, and wind up having unintended pregnancies–which they cannot entrust to prolifers because prolifers are so associated with LGBT phobia.
LGBT phobia is also an offense against life because it drives people to commit suicide or engage in parasuicidal behaviors such as not protecting themselves against hiv/aids or substance abuse.
The virulence against LGBT people that I hear from those who identify as prolife baffles and enrages me. Is abortion wrong because it is violence, or is it wrong because it’s “sexual immorality”?
Wow. Marylee, Vannah, Marysia, you are as deluded as pro-choicers who insist that we are violent and want to kill abortionists. I am against homosexuality. It is an unsafe lifestyle (aside from aids, the very act of sodomy is harmful to the body. Heteros that practice it also have damage to their bodies). It is condemned in the Word of God as an “abomination.”
That being said I don’t HATE gays and especially I have no FEAR of them. So stop with your whining over GLBTQ PHOBIA. No one here is AFRAID of gays because they say “I think homosexuality is not normal.”
Really…all 3 of you. Get a new argument. We are not afraid. We just don’t agree. Why are YOU so afraid of people who don’t agree with you? You have a non-consensus phobia. HATERS!
See? I’ll just turn the table and call you all phobics and haters and whatever verbal sludge I’ve heard you fling at us, I can fling it right back. Its stupid isn’t it?
I’m going to make the generalization, Mary Lee, that the number ONE reason the gay community aligns itself with the pro-aborts is because they themselves are pro-aborts.
You are referring to an extremist fringe, and it is NOT representative of the entire community.
This is true. Are all prolifers clinic bombers? I don’t think so.
I wouldn’t say I support “gay rights” exactly, since I have problems with gay marriage, but I do believe in treating others with kindness, including those who are different from me.
Marysia,
So because their mommy and daddy pressure them into having heterosexual sex, young homosexuals are forced into abortion? Is that the argument?
Wow, now I’m convinced. Clearly the LGBT group is adamantly pro-life. Seriously, though, how does being gay make getting pregnant all that much more difficult? How does it excuse abortion? Explain that to me. Because it really sounds like a sorry excuse.
Wow, Sydney, did you just compare me with pro-aborts? So, if I don’t think like you, I’m not really pro-life? Even though I dedicate my life and my prayers for the sanctity of the unborn children and love them with all my heart? How can you expect any forward movement if you attack your own? It’s not enough that I am pro-life, I have to be EXACTLY LIKE YOU?! No wonder why they hate us! Do you not even hear yourselves? What a shame.
And hell yes, I’m defensive. Why pro-lifers must lump the gay community with abortion is incomprehensible. It simply does not follow. Yes, a lot of gay people are members of the pro-abortion community; that is because the pro-abortionists are charming, they have the money, connections, and they are good at lying. The one thing they do right is not judging the gay community. So, yes, it is no surprise that they gay community (in general) sympathizes with the pro-abortion community. They are told they should. They are told by the pro-life community that they are “sinners” and are called names and treated like crap by people with holier-than-thou attitudes. Gee, I wonder why they won’t listen to us.
Vannah,
Has it occurred to you that DADT could have been a nice little protection for gays in the military? Has it occurred to you that being “outed” by new policy could have serious repercussions on gays in the military?
We knew my young cousin was gay before he entered elementary school.
Really? How? Was it both his family and friends who were able to pinpoint this before he even started school? Is this same group of people able to tell which pre-elementary little girls are lesbians?
I wonder if people knew my brother was an alcoholic before he was even six.
MaryRose, I fear for gays in the military now more than ever with the status of DADT. :( I think it should NOT matter if one serving in the military is gay or straight, but the sad bottom line is that in a lot of cases, it might not be as safe as when it was kept under wraps.
I wouldn’t say I support “gay rights” exactly, since I have problems with gay marriage, but I do believe in treating others with kindness, including those who are different from me.
Honestly, I would say most Christians (and people in general) feel the same way. I know I do.
No Mary Lee, thats what you were doing to us. If we don’t agree with you we are “homophobic”
Shall we stop the name calling now and have a real discussion?
For what it’s worth, I agree with Kel’s quoted statement too.
I found it interesting that, unlike most other pro-gay articles I’ve read, this article appears to lean toward the “choice” view toward homosexuality as opposed to the “I was born that way” mentality.
Kel @ 9:40 AM
Kel, It was my impression too that the writer, Denise Noe, is very open to the idea that homosexuality can be a CHOICE. She ends her article with the following summation: ”In discussing the issues of gay marriage and legal abortion, it is important to realize their connections in fears about reproduction.” She never mentions the moral implications of abortion except as implied by her open-ended question which happens to be the quote of the day. She could have shortened her article considerably and said the same thing. It’s a strange article, IMHO. Please forgive me if I’ve repeated what others have said, as I haven’t had a chance to read every comment.
Kel,
I completely agree! While I morally disagree with homosexuality, I feel like we are called to be loving of all mankind. I worry about the physical and mental wellbeing of gays in the military now that they can be singled out so distinctly.
I have to agree with Mary Rose, Kel and others. we are called to love, and to help ourselves and others to become the ‘best that we can be,’ pardoning the taking of that slogan.
Love the sinner, hate the sin. And we are called to love everyone – including those who disagree with us, even on blogs! ;)
“Young LGBT people especially feel intense pressures to act as if they are straight, end up taking risks with heterosexual sex, and wind up having unintended pregnancies–which they cannot entrust to prolifers because prolifers are so associated with LGBT phobia.”
So, a lesbian who gets pregnant decides to kill her baby lest it be adopted by a pro-lifer? Wow, this comment takes the cake. I gotta give a couple diapers to the CPC for such an outrageous stinker: +1 = $16
I know of several gay friends who have expressed a desire for children, but alas, there are not enough babies for all the available homes.
It’s too bad that more actually LG folks didn’t chime in on this thread. I applaud the work of LG pro-lifers, and I know they comment on Jill’s blog from time to time. I’m sure that despite Mary Lee’s naive cheerleading, they would admit that yes, historically and factually a large percentage of the gay community (especially self-proclaimed lesbians) has been involved in promoting abortion. It’s not a phobia to know the facts. If I didn’t love an respect my gay friends, I wouldn’t have any. Why would they put up with me?
It doesn’t do their community any service to pretend otherwise or whitewash history because it’s inconvenient with your naive view of the last 60 years. I have thought recently that maybe their political push for marriage will have a positive effect: gay couples will find out how few babies are not aborted, how few available for homes that have room and love for them. Maybe self-proclaimed lesbians will see the light and denounce the abortion industry once and for all. If Mary Lee is so deep in the gay community, I wonder why she doesn’t engage her gay friends and maybe help them wake up to the facts.
And while I’m on the facts, we desperately need to update our statistics. 52 million abortions in the US? We’ve been quoting that number far too long… the tiny body count is much higher than that by now.
I used to be very vocally of the position that a person’s sexual orientation shouldn’t matter unless you are thinking about dating them. After becoming a Christian, I came to believe–gradually, as God worked on my conscience–that acting on one’s homosexual inclinations is wrong. Having them isn’t wrong, but acting on them is.
I do think there are those who go much to far in vilifying individuals who have homosexual sex. I don’t think it’s right to deny someone a job based on their sexual orientation, or to prohibit them from going anywhere others can. I think that people should have the option of sharing a house, a life, a tax burden, with whoever they wish. I think civil unions might even be a reasonable way of providing for some of that.
Research has shown that children do better with a mom and a dad, and that men and women interact and play with babies in different ways. I can see how it might be better, though, for a gay couple to adopt a child than for that child to stay in foster care. I don’t think adoption agencies should be forced to adhere to anyone else’s standards, though.
I don’t think we should be vilifying gay people, but I do think homosexual sex is sinful, like many other things the government doesn’t regulate–heterosexual sex outside of marriage, overeating, greed. I do not need or want the government to regulate who may have sex and when on the basis of some view of morality, but I also don’t want the government to sanction homosexual sex by calling in marriage. I think that there are other, better ways to give people in committed homosexual partnerships the rights and privileges they desire.
I tend to think that it is better to give freedom to consenting adults than to restrict them, even if it is for their own good, so long as they are not hurting some nonconsenting party (such as an unborn child). I don’t want my children indoctrinated to believe that it is okay to have sex with whomever they feel attracted to, or that there is no difference between two men having sex and a man and a woman having sex. I will love my kids no matter what, but I believe there are right and wrong uses for the body, and I would be sad to see my children living in a manner I thought was wrong–such as having sex outside of marriage.
young Christian woman, my sentiments exactly. Marriage is something God created. If they want a “partnership” and legal rights then so be it. But it is not and never will be marriage. I don’t want government dictating sex either. As long as no one is being raped or children are not being harmed then government should butt out. I will however as a Christian always call sin sin if that is what God calls it. I also don’t want my children indoctrinated. I also don’t hate gay people and have gay friends. A lot of them are splendid people but that doesn’t mean I’ll be walking in the gay pride parade.
Marysia, your argument very clearly indicated that you believe that the ‘pressures’ on individuals identifying as LGBT to be ‘normal’ lead them to abort…and I’m really not clear on why. Embarrassment? Shame? Or just that they can’t ‘entrust’ their child to straight parents?
The argument is incredibly weak.
I think you’re making your arguments among a lot of the wrong people, though. While some here may be the sort to harass and bully, a lot of those of us responding to you are actually quite openhearted towards those with whom we don’t share the same moral compass. We’re simply sick and tired of the argument that because we disagree, we are necessarily unkind and ignorant and awful horrible people. I believe that, as a general rule, homosexuality, etc. is a symptom of an unwell society. I believe that most of those people who identify as LGBT do so because of underlying psychological issues. We all have issues. Am I called to be cruel because one person’s problems display differently from mine? Absolutely not. But I’m not going to let you trample my beliefs either.
Well said Mary Rose!
Very interesting posts. I will only say, God loves homosexuals, I love homosexuals, God’s plan and a purpose for everyone is for all to come to repentance, to accept His love and redemption for our sins and to be in relationship with Him. I will continue to speak the truth in love to homosexuals and those who want to normalize and condone homosexual behavior. No, it is not about hatred or homophobia when I say that homosexuality is the unnatural use of the human male or female reproductive system as the study by Dr. John Diggs study documents (Kel posted the link at 1-5-11 at 12:55pm). I do not condone bullying, violence, hatred rape, murder or mistreatment against ANYONE born or unborn. I would fight against abortions committed against “gays” with all of my might if such a thing ever became PC, like I am fighting against abortion now, although it is considered PC and is legally endorsed to commit abortion in our nation.
Heard a great testimony the other day from a woman who was in the lesbian lifestyle for many years and was converted and delivered from lesbianism about 15 years ago. She stated “homosexuality is a behavior, it is not genetic, there is NO gay gene and God can deliver homosexuals because he has delivered me and set me free.” The scripture says “Whom the Son sets free is free indeed, Jesus said “I come to set the captive free”. “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. This includes me, you and everyone no matter our sexual behavior or orientation.
If someone wants to come out of the lifestyle they can contact Exodus International (I believe that is the name of the ministry) to receive help and support. God bless.
Mary Lee,
As a Catholic I agree with the whole “love the sinner, hate the sin.” this is NOT the same as judging a person’s soul. We are to abhor all sin and do our bests to avoid it. This is NOT to say we mistreat a person for their sin, however, it also means we don’t support the sin.
In my life I have had homosexual friends (and bisexual friends). My stance was, I would love the person as a friend because they were a fellow human being, but I did NOT have to approve or encourage absolutely everything they did, just like they did NOT have to approve or encourage absolutely everything I did.
Guess what’s happened to me despite that stance?
I have been told by pro-homosexuals (and even some homosexuals themselves) that I was NOT a good friend, and that I was uncompassionate and that they felt sorry for my homosexual friends because obviously I wasn’t a true friend. (Despite the fact that a homosexual friend of mine when he was hurting over someone he was interested in talked to ME about it DESPITE my stance–not because he thought I’d support his lifestyle–he knew I wouldn’t–but because he knew I cared about him as a person).
When I told a homosexual friend of mine what those folks said to me he couldn’t believe it. He said “You’re not a bad friend.” I asked him “Since when does friendship mean anyone has to approve of absolutely everything that person does or says?” He said, “It doesn’t.” He went on to say he disagrees with my Catholic beliefs, but that doesn’t stop him for caring about me because I’m a fellow human being.
He’s known FOR YEARS where I stood on the topic of homo and bi sexuality. He knows precisely where I stand. We went over it and put it aside. We decided that even though I could never support or encourage his lifestyle, I could support and encourage the fact that he was a human being. Just like he could never encourage or support the fact that I’m a practicing Roman Catholic Christian, but that he would always support and encourage the fact that I was a fellow human being.
For some reason our mutual respect of each other’s humanity is not enough for people. I’m supposed to support absolutely everything he does regardless of how I believe and feel, that my faith and beliefs.
I’m not judging his soul, I judge actions, which is part of forming one’s conscience and its important so that a person is not just tossed around and follow any and every little thing. That’s what “love the sinner hate the sin” means.