“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children” – Genesis 3:16
When I hear most anti-abortion arguments, I think about this quote.
~Sophia Collins, guardian.co.uk, January 14
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Um, Sophia, its called an epidural.
From Sophia’s article:
” if anti-abortion arguments are really about the life of the foetus, then they don’t really stack up”
Seriously Sophia? Let’s declare you non-human and shreddable and go from there – okay?
What does that have to do with anything? There’s such a massive disconnect between her article and that quote that it just doesn’t make any sense.
Epidural??? did you say BUPIVACAINE? That’s for childbirth, not abortions.
I read the article and the first fifty comments after it.
The article was loaded with numerous abortionist fallacies which were all refuted decades ago. So were the comments. These “arguments” included (but not limited to): men do not have a right to comment, pro-life people just want women to suffer, our position is “extreme” so it must be wrong, this is just a medical procedure, women have an absolute “right” to control “their” bodies and to make “choices”, etc. You get the idea.
Nowhere was there any attempt (is there ever?) to prove that killing human beings in the first nine months of life and depriving us of our entire human lifespans does not violate our rights because we do not have a right to said lifespan. Nowhere in the article (or in most comments) is there an attempt to respond to actual unborn human rights arguments (instead of spiteful abortionist caricatures of pro-life arguments) or an attempt to offer a serious logical refutation of each.
Sound familiar?
The reality that we face (and always have) is that opponents of unborn human rights who therefore support the crime of prenatal homicide do NOT have ANY philosophical or logical arguments which they can use to attempt a rational defense of unlimited killing of unborn children. They seem to have an intense psychological and cultural need to have this violence available and for this reason they seem to be unable to bring themselves to even consider sound (and I think irrefutable) pro-life arguments, let alone accept those arguments.
They are therefore reduced to twisting and distorting our arguments and engaging in every type of intellectual dishonesty and evasion to avoid having to face the awful fact that their anti-unborn human rights position is and always has been completely wrong, both morally and logically.
From the article:
Having an abortion is emotionally difficult for most of us.
Really, Sophia? Care to tell that to the pro-aborts who continue to berate post-abortive women and tell them they’re making up all that emotional turmoil?
No one ever said to themselves, “You know what, I think I’ll go and have lots of unprotected sex, just so I can get pregnant and have an abortion, ‘cos that will be such fun!”
No, but many have said to themselves, “I don’t really HAVE to have that condom because there’s the morning after pill. And besides, it’s not gonna happen to ME.” Ignorance of biology and reproduction and FAILURE to use or FAILURE OF contraception (which give the false promise of prevention every time) are the reason women think they’re safe and “entitled” to sex without babies.
Most agonise over the decision.
Why? After all, isn’t it supposed to be simple, common, perfectly safe, and actually doesn’t take the “life” of a “person?” Why agonize if it’s nothing?
You berate yourself for getting into the position.
So, what you’re saying is, you berate yourself for not being safe and not being careful. Hmm. I don’t see where pro-lifers have anything to do with that, sorry.
You think about the life inside you while you’re waiting for the appointment.
“Life?” What “life?” According to almost EVERY pro-abort I’ve ever conversed with, the thing inside a woman is only alive if she SAYS so. But it couldn’t possibly actually be alive. Unless, of course, you are aware of human reproduction and biology and have been through a jr. high biology/health class…
Afterwards, you think about what might have been. Secrecy and shame make it harder. Being able to talk about it with others makes it easier, lessens the guilt, helps you see the options clearly.
This sounds remarkably like the testimony of so many post-abortive women who REGRET their abortions. Just talking about it won’t lessen the guilt. Besides, why the guilt, anyway?
Why should the disapproval of spiteful extremists keep us silent?
You tell me, Sophia. You are the one who just admitted to agonizing, thinking about “what might have been,” thinking about the “life inside you” and feeling “shame.” Your problem is this: you have been told by society that guilt over killing your unborn child is nothing more than a social construct. You have been lied to.
Support openness about abortion, so that women seeking a termination don’t feel alone and like the worst person in the world.
You mean like you did? You mean you want other women to experience the shame, the longing, and the emotional turmoil YOU went through? That’s big of you, Sophia.
But most of all, don’t make a medical procedure harder than it has to be, just because you think they shouldn’t be having it. Because really, that’s just childish.
Well, FYI, if you want to go out and get a boob job, liposuction, facial reconstruction, collagen injections and a nose job, I might think, “Wow, that is pretty unhealthy,” but honey, you’d only be hurting yourself, and that’s your prerogative.
But intervening when you’re about to kill that “life inside you” isn’t childish. Stomping your feet and saying “you can’t tell me what to do, and you should let me do whatever I want!” is, though.
Sophia, projecting blame on others for your past mistakes is something you need to work through.
VERY good post, Kel!
Not sure what interpretation of the Bible that is, though, because the word in the KJV is SORROW, not PAIN.
Well said, Kel and Joe. Her article is just a personal rant, full of caricature, devoid of quotes or proof. If pro-lifers hate women and want women to suffer, then by golly, some anti-lifer should have been able to find the website or group by now. For almost 40 years they have been saying the same thing and yet, where are all the cruel pro-lifers? Where is the mailing address? Where is the blog? Where are the ‘make women suffer’ public gatherings? The ‘make women suffer’ t-shirts, buttons and bumper stickers? Oh, there aren’t any? (Except maybe the odd individual commenter here or there, which I still have not seen with my own eyes and I’m pretty good at browsing on the internet.). Except for Westboro, which no one associates with except the mainstream media who consider those nutjobs their darlings, WHO are the rest?
I didn’t read her post, just this snippet here. But I will say this, I had a natural labor. I waited too long to ask for an epidural. Labor was PAINFUL! I remember telling my husband I didn’t want any more children and for him to never touch me again ;-) I beg for another baby all the time and my husband always laughs and brings this up. When I was in labor I remember thinking “WHY would ANY WOMAN ever willingly go through this?” but as soon as my baby boy emerged the pain was gone. And I felt a euphoria that equaled my wedding day. I felt intense love for this baby. I remember thinking “This baby is worth all that agony!” and immediately thought “I can’t wait to have another!”
I have heard women who have had abortions talk about how intensely painful and horrifying it was. And at the end of that pain there was no beautiful bundle of joy. There was only death. What a difference.
I remember telling my husband I didn’t want any more children and for him to never touch me again ;-) I beg for another baby all the time and my husband always laughs and brings this up….
but as soon as my baby boy emerged the pain was gone. And I felt a euphoria that equaled my wedding day. I felt intense love for this baby. I remember thinking “This baby is worth all that agony!” and immediately thought “I can’t wait to have another!”
If my husband laughed at my desire for another child, I’d be pretty resentful. I hope you told your husband about the joy you felt afterward, and to please not diminish or laugh at your desire for more children. I can’t imagine your pain, Sydney. We’d have words in my house if someone treated me and my desires like that and purported to still love me. Just sayin’. :(
Yeah, my husband and I fight over a second baby a lot. Its the biggest issue in our marriage. But when I said he laughs I didn’t mean that he laughs in a mean way. He chuckles over his memory of what I said. He knows how much I love being a mom and knows I want another baby. He has it in his head we can’t financially support another child which is nonsense. I know exactly how much money we have and pay the bills myself so I know what our expenses are and we def can afford more children. I just pray about it. My husband really is a loving and caring man. He is very affectionate and loving to me. He really feels strongly about financially supporting our family. Because he doesn’t have a relationship with God he shoulders all the stress of family support by himself. :-(
My pastor said patience is trusting that God’s timing is best. I know when God wants us to have another baby it will happen whether my husband agrees or not. It used to upset me a lot that my husband says no to another child for now but I have come to a place of peace. Not that my longing for more kiddos has diminished but I trust God and God’s timing. My husband is not the controller of life even if he seems to think he is.
But thanks for caring Kel. Its nice to feel the empathy of fellow pro-lifers.
Because he doesn’t have a relationship with God he shoulders all the stress of family support by himself.
Sydney, I will be praying for your husband’s salvation. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to lash out. I’ve just seen your longing for a baby here so many times and it breaks my heart. It upsets me that you are treated this way.
Kel wrote, in reply to Sophia’s article:
[Sophia]
Most agonise over the decision.
[Kel]
Why? After all, isn’t it supposed to be simple, common, perfectly safe, and actually doesn’t take the “life” of a “person?” Why agonize if it’s nothing?
Exactly! I’ve yet to hear a logically and morally coherent response to this question, and I’ve heard it asked dozens of times, on this board alone!
The common responses usually gravitate toward one of the following:
1) “It’s a major medical procedure, like getting your tonsils out!” (First: I don’t know how many places offer outpatient tonsillectomies, but… okay. Second: I don’t remember “agonizing”–a very telling and emotion-laden word–about getting my wisdom teeth out, or having a bone marrow biopsy done; they weren’t fun, and they hurt, but they weren’t soul-torturing, which is obviously what’s being implied, here.)
2) “It’s the decision not to have a *future* child that’s so agonizing; it’s not always easy for a woman to turn down a chance at motherhood!” (Again, this seems completely out of proportion to the event itself; if a woman crumples into tears of anguish and agony with every discernment about whether to have more children or not, then it’s a safe bet that something else is in play, aside from the raw decision. I could understand such pain if she longed for a child, but the husband/boyfriend/whatever were threatening her with violence if she had another child [though, wouldn’t that fall under the category of “coercion” and not so-called “right to choose abortion” at all?], but… such pain, simply from the decision to “postpone future motherhood” itself? For “most” women? My doubt-meter goes off the scale, on that one.)
3) “It’s the social stigma against abortion that causes such anguish; if it were accepted and/or tolerated by everyone, an abortion wouldn’t trigger such agony!” (I’m not sure what country the author claims as home, but: in the USA, there are plentiful communities which will surround someone with “affirmation” for a decision to kill a child by abortion [in other words, of course]… usually near liberal arts campuses, and especially on both coasts. This doesn’t pass the “smell test”, for me.)
You tell me: what explanation makes the most sense, is the most probable, and fits the facts best (of which the following list names only a few)?
1) the author claims that most abortion-seeking women “agonize” over the decision
2) a sort of “unspoken gag order about what an abortion is, how it looks, etc.” is ubiquitous
3) related to #2: a tremendous disconnect exists between abortionist descriptions of abortion (and fetal development) and other medical descriptions (and photos/videos, etc.) of abortion
4) the offspring of the mother dies in the abortion, and the mother knows that (even if she’s told that the child is a “mere clump of cells”
The list goes on, but this should be enough to make even a slightly-unbiased person suspicious. Is it not at least possible that such disproportionate reactions take place because there is, at least at some level, a recognition that a baby is being ripped to shreds… and that this is (forgive the grotesque understatement) a “very bad thing”? Most people, for example, don’t need “training” in order to think that putting live kittens in a running blender is a horrifying and barbarous thing to do; humans need “training” in order to try to DENY it. Just so, with abortion, I think (only worse).
Thank you Kel! That really means A LOT!
Kel, are you on facebook? I am friends with Carla if you are. If you find Carla you’ll find me! If you do, “friend” me!
BTW, my name is actually different than the moniker I use on here. I feel I can share more openly when not giving out my real full name.
I’m friends with Carla on FB, too! ;)
Pamela, am I friends with you? What are your initials? Mind is S.S.M. and my first name is the same as Carla’s daughter. But Carla has a gazillion friends so I don’t know if you’ll be able to find me (I mean, if you want to! lol)
I’ll hook ya up!! :)
[deleted by author–pleads temporary stupidity and amnesia! :) ]
If you’re friends with Carla then you’re friends with me! She will make the facebook introductions :-)
Paladin, are we already friends on facebook?
I was so sad to read some of the comments after the article (not on Jill’s site), the ones that say how terrible it must be for a woman to raise a child that she didn’t plan to have, how this can ruin her life etc etc.
Children are a blessing not a curse!
It’s tragic that so many men and women today are missing the wonderful opportunity of raising a child, whether planned or not….not to mention the children that never get to live.
(Joe): Nowhere was there any attempt (is there ever?) to prove that killing human beings in the first nine months of life and depriving us of our entire human lifespans does not violate our rights because we do not have a right to said lifespan. Nowhere in the article (or in most comments) is there an attempt to respond to actual unborn human rights arguments (instead of spiteful abortionist caricatures of pro-life arguments) or an attempt to offer a serious logical refutation of each.
Hi Joe. You’re putting the cart before the horse, there. The unborn, to a point in gestation, anyway, are not attributed the right to life. If they were, then abortion would have to be illegal.
What you want is that as a society, we deem that right to be present. You want a change in the status of the unborn. There is a difference between “should be there,” and actually being there.