German philosopher Oswald Spengler, a contemporary critic of Hitler and the Nazis, said, “Every act alters the soul of the doer.”
How do you think abortion alters the soul of the doer, if at all?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I think that this is where most of the damage is done.
My friend Beth (who was instrumental in leading me to Christ) said that after her abortion, she ran from God for years. She said she’s grateful that she didn’t die during those years, because had she been brought before her Maker she’d have turned away in shame and self-loathing and been separated from Him forever.
How many others are like Beth?
I agree with the above comment by Christina.
Blessed Mother Teresa said that abortion kills the physical life of the unborn baby and kills the soul of the mother.
An important perspective to keep in mind regarding abortion: if we only concentrate on saving the physical life of the baby as being the only highest good, if the baby dies, as is so often the case, it seems as though nothing good has come out of the abortion.
However, if we love the mother as much and keep in mind the eternal welfare of her soul, and try to minister to her even after she has had the abortion, then all is not lost, and indeed good may come even after what seems like an absolute evil.
When you love others, you love yourself.
When you sacrifice in the service of others, you gain.
When you hurt others, you hurt yourself.
When you dehumanize others, you dehumanize yourself.
You can even see this concept at work in something as simple as when one insults another and in the process makes himself look bad.
One’s actions have the greatest impact on oneself, which is why those that hate are so unhappy.
Hippie ~ You’re so right. Notice that all the PCs spew nothing but hate, even when you try to offer them sympathy when they’ve gone through a traumatic experience such as Sally seeing the woman who fell out of the hot air balloon. She turned on everyone. You could almost see her head spinning and pea soup spewing out her mouth! We just need to keep praying for all of them. The devil is at work here.
One Who’s been there. You just hit the nail on the head.
Well, I do not believe that Oswald Spengler, was speaking of the Christian concept of a soul, i would tend to agree that every choice a person makes effects them. But i dont see “the Devil” in it. mankind is evil enough on its own, we dont need help. We do horrid things to each other without reason or remorse. Extremism is rampant in ALL walks of life. and nothing to the extreme is good.
Mother Teresa was NOT made a saint, and there is a reason for that (a few reasons actually), but the biggest one being she knowingly benefited from a serious crime, and refused to make retribution. I agree with her stance on abortion, but she is NOT “blessed” by the Church.
I really can’t comment on the state of my soul after my abortion. I find it hard to quantify my soul but I can speak to the change it had in me (which may very well be the change in my soul.)
Prior to the abortion, I thought of God in abstract terms, I never really believed, but sometimes thought of God in terms of a happy loving spirit in the sky.
After the abortion, I suddenly started thinking often of how God would punish me for my sin. I went from little belief in a happy God, to this horrible feeling of doom.
I think I knew what I did was wrong, but I didn’t know what to do about it, so I just punished myself in a way I knew.
I know I am not the same person anymore. In many ways, I am damaged. In many ways, I am a better person. Because I know so much more now.
I wish not only that I never had the abortion, I wish I was smarter in my sexual choices in the first place.
I don’t often wonder about the child I killed, I know that person is someone I will never know. But, I do love my children here a little more and I think that choice was instrumental in our decision to adopt two more children.
I am a different person, and now I make better choices. I like me now, but am sad for what I did.
hippie, again, most EXCELLENT points. I have a friend who, by society’s standards, has it all. She has had an abortion. She only cares about material things. I can’t help but notice that she isn’t happy as a result.
Fresa, thank you for your honest post. It is appreciated. I wish that there were more out there who were willing to talk about abortion as you just have. God is forgiving. I’m sorry for your loss, as well as your pain.
Although it is most often called dehumanizing… I think of the process more-so as the blunting a sharp knife. This runs in many directions, but many people keen on academic excellence, will fail because suddenly they have lost the urge to learn … they become entranced with the futility of life.
Try dismissing the zest of a young child with the chain-dragging of most PC’ers. He/she’ll grab you by the hand and insist you play with them. One of the best reasons we all NEED children. Abortion refuses to need that zip!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the best reasons we all NEED children. Abortion refuses to need that zip!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: John McDonell at October 13, 2007 11:26 AM
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Uh, John?
Open the paper in the morning, and you’ll find stories every day about people who not only didn’t NEED children, but people who should not be allowed to own and operate genitalia.
Not only would I say that not everybody NEEDS children, I’m beginning to have some serious reservations about who should be ALLOWED to have them…
Read any post by Laura, and you’ll see a perfect example of someone who routinely abuses the privilege of owning and operating a mouth and a keyboard.
Of course you have serious reservations about who should be allowed to have children; you are a reproductive Nazi PP supporter. And the children you’ve thus helped to murder, given a voice, would have serious reservations about your right to speak in judgment of their right to live, love, laugh, work, play, and all the other things that normal people do…given the chance.
Perhaps not everyone is sharp, mature or game enough to accept the challenge of parenting the children they conceive, but that is a defect in them that civilized people will encourage them to overcome, not exploit in order to put more bloodmoney in the bank.
It’s not a reason to kill; there is at least one couple ready to adopt every child PP reduces to chopped meat each day.
And yes, as a society, we need children. The One Who created us all, whether you choose to acknowledge Him or not, did not hold up one of His disciples to children as a pattern for emulation; instead, He put a little child in their midst as an example to them. There was a good reason for this…and the non sequiturs you constantly post in defense of killing them show that you need their good influence at least as badly as anyone else.
Jonathan said: “Mother Teresa was NOT made a saint, and there is a reason for that (a few reasons actually), but the biggest one being she knowingly benefited from a serious crime, and refused to make retribution. I agree with her stance on abortion, but she is NOT “blessed” by the Church.”
What on Earth are you talking about, Jonathan? It’s no doubt the anti-Catholic propaganda from that hateful atheist Christopher Hitchens. Blessed (Mother) Teresa of Calcutta has already been beatified by the Catholic Church:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/10/19/pope.mother.teresa/index.html
That is the first step toward canonization, or the official declaration by the Church that she is in Heaven. In other words, the official proclamation of her as a saint.
Nobody is ever canonized so soon after their death. It takes years, decades, even centuries. Bl. Teresa will probably be officially named St. Teresa some time during the next decade.
Jonathan said: “Mother Teresa was NOT made a saint, and there is a reason for that (a few reasons actually), but the biggest one being she knowingly benefited from a serious crime, and refused to make retribution. I agree with her stance on abortion, but she is NOT “blessed” by the Church.”
What on Earth are you talking about, Jonathan? It’s no doubt the anti-Catholic propaganda from that hateful atheist Christopher Hitchens. Blessed (Mother) Teresa of Calcutta has already been beatified by the Catholic Church:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/10/19/pope.mother.teresa/index.html
That is the first step toward canonization, or the official declaration by the Church that she is in Heaven. In other words, the official proclamation of her as a saint.
Nobody is ever canonized so soon after their death. It takes years, decades, even centuries. Bl. Teresa will probably be officially named St. Teresa some time during the next decade.
Mother Teresa was recently quoted to have said that she never truly felt God moving in her life. Hmm.
Erin, that is not true. It was Blessed Mother Teresa’s belief in God that led her to become a missionary in the first place.
What she actually wrote is that while she was living in the slums of Calcutta, the poverty and death there made it hard for her to feel God’s presence. It’s very nice of you to attack and slander a woman who spent her life helping the poor, and who suffered through a serious crisis of faith because of it, though.
Or maybe, she was just a good person. Maybe she thought, hey, God obviously isn’t doing anything to help these starving, dying people. Maybe I should.
Mother Teresa DID say that she almost never truly felt God moving through her. She didn’t ‘sense the presence of God’ for 50 years. That doesn’t sound like a ‘crisis’ of faith. It sounds like an indifference of faith.
She did wonderful things. I think it was because she was a wonderful, loving person who wanted to help her fellow man. God doesn’t have to have anything to do with it.
Erin, stop slandering Mother Teresa. You have no clue what you are talking about. As your pro-abort friends have said in the past, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
We have known about Bl. Teresa’s “dark night of the soul” for several years. The letters were first made public years ago, not “recently”. They were in the possession of the Church, and if we really didn’t want slanderers like you to intentionally misinterpret them, we would have burned them, as Bl. Teresa asked us to do so.
Even if your interpretation is correct, you are effectively calling Bl. Teresa a liar. You’re saying that she was lying when she said that Jesus Christ told her to go help the poor. You’re saying that she was lying when she said that she could no longer feel God’s presence, because according to you, she never felt it.
You know nothing of what Catholics believe about suffering. You know nothing of what Catholics believe about faith. You have absolutely no right to launch your ignorant attacks at Bl. Teresa.
*rolls eyes*
Uh huh. Blessed Teresa.
How come people have to somehow make all ‘good people’ not human? She was a saint. Jesus was a messiah. Shows a real lack of compassion and reliance on humanity.
Erin, the saints are human. They are human beings who are in Heaven. They are our friends, and I don’t like it when somebody attacks my friend. Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Blessed Teresa, St. Teresa… whatever she is called, she is a human being.
Jesus Christ is the God-man, who is fully God and fully human. If you disagree, you are calling him a liar, just as you suggested before that Bl. Teresa is a liar.
The religion of Christianity is about, above all else, love. John 3:16 makes that clear. Why so many people have such a problem with a religion which is all about love is beyond me. I mean, I could understand if you just had a problem with some folks who call themselves Christian, but to attack Christianity – it’s like saying that love itself is a waste of time.
“The Christian faith has not been tried and found wanting. It has rather been found difficult and left untried.” -G.K. Chesterton
John L. once again pro-abort Erin proves my post about the hate rampant in their hearts. They not only attack innocent babies but soon-to-be saints and those who love them. Pray,pray,pray!! Many saints suffered dark moments in their lives but never gave up or turned their backs on God.
Jonathan, where do you think the evil in mankind comes from, if not from the devil? He is the epitome of evil himself and wants to infect everyone he can and he’s doing it quite well in the PCs.
I don’t understand why everyone is so wigged out by Erin and her stupid ideas and rants. Let her talk and continue to try and convince HERSELF that she is right…we know the truth.
She’ll wake up sooner or later.
JL. I dont buy into Hitchens. I, myself, am catholic. I had a long discussion with my priest about her. He also believes she did great things as well as bad things with her life. but has no right to be Sainted.
“”Ask yourself what Jesus would do if he were given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen; what Jesus would do if he were being exploited by a thief to ease his conscience? I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners. You should do the same. You have been given money by Mr. Keating that he has been convicted of stealing by fraud. Do not permit him the ‘indulgence’ he desires. Do not keep the money. Return it to those who worked for it and earned it! If you contact me I will put you in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession.” — DA Paul Turkey’s letter to Mother Teresa.
One:
I dont believe in the Devil. like i said, mankind is evil without his help. I put the blame where it is due, when i mess up it means *I* have made mistakes. i am not about to blame some fictional character. What if i told you the reason i killed 32 people was “the boogie man told me too”….. ya, i would be INSANE.
Edited by moderator Bethany at 9:33 PM
It is generally understood by Catholic mystical theologians (those who study the development of spirituality in a person), that Mother Theresa underwent a “dark night of the soul” in which a person feels an abscence of God and experiences a withdrawal of God’s grace (hence the “dark night” the lack of seeing and understanding by virtue of God’s grace). It is generally considered to be a form of purification and precedes what is called the unitive stage – total union with God. What is unusual in Mother Theresa’s situation is that her dark night was very long – this stage of spiritual growth usually does not occur until later in a person’s life or perhaps I should say towards the end of a persons life.
It is theorized that possibly Mother Theresa was actually in a state of union with Christ but when He was abandoned on the Cross. I think we will discover that Mother Theresa’s spirituality will be most interesting. What is incredible is that she could continue to do the work she did – she carried on in tremendous faith.
Jonathan,
that IS mighty tricky …. is a ‘gift’ to be accepted as such at face value? Instead of the fraud money, should she have accepted if the money came from the C.E.O. of a tobacco company (that killed thousands via lung cancer)? Or, what to do if the money given was from a drug lord … or, mafia don … should it be rejected? I do not even pretend to know … there are places that a soul rarely goes …. if Christ is your model here, you cannot guess his reaction through scripture.
She likely asked Jesus (in prayer) just what to do. Is a gift to be rejected from a notorious tax collector? Problem is: much of this ‘money’ was spent within days … or hours of its arrival. There is no deep-funds bank account to remedy ‘difficult’ situations.
John;
I agree it was a difficult situation, but it is also much more straight forward then say a Tobacco Company. This was money literally stolen straight from people like you or me. A similar case happened in Cork (near where i am from). A man broke into a home, and emptied it of all the electronics and some other things of value…. but he regretted it. so, to avoid being caught, he donated it all to the church.
when he was caught a week later. he confessed and told what he did with everything. the church had already sold some of the stuff, but it IMMEDIATELY returned the rest, and replaced the stuff it had sold.
The church usually doesnt sponsor thievery, and it doesnt offer indulgences anymore.
I ask that a moderator remove the expletive in post above by Ignoramus, aka
Posted by: Jonathan at October 13, 2007 5:37 PM
Or better yet, just remove all his posts.
Here we are considering serious matters like the state of one’s soul, and one of the holiest people our contemporary world has ever known, and then along comes a wise cracker using ghetto language to instruct us in the truths of the Catholic Faith.
AC:
I used the F word once. and im sorry if it offends you. But i know more about the Christian faith then most people (seeing as i study it as a profession and grew up in Sallybrook, Co. Cork. in a VERY devote family.)
I enjoy discussing Religion, its my lifes work. I simply do not hold Teresa of Calcutta in the same regard you do. Did she do great things? yes. but so did Siddhartha, i dont see the church making him a saint.
Jonathan,
there is much about Jesus’ life on earth we contemporary people have a very hard time with … the miracles are just one of these. There were so many accounts of these, it would alter scripture entirely if miracles were left out of these documents. [Ask anyone whose life has been transformed via an encounter with Jesus; whether miracles happen … a definite YES!]
Similarly, casting out devils was an integral part of Jesus’ ministry. It is a sign of God’s victory in the world. He even gave His disciples this power. Did Jesus not know what He was doing? Is casting out demons only a pretend spirituality, not for sophisticated?
John; I know about Miracles. i actually wrote my PHD on Jesus. “Messiah, Prophet, or Cultist” and compared the Three Abrahamic religions view of Jesus, and the way he is shown in each text.
I do believe in Miracles. but i also believe the “casting out of devils” is more a personal thing then a “Satan be gone” kinda thing. Many people tell me when they came to know jesus, they found they wanted to do more good, and were less selfish, intolerant, and many other “evil” things. I believe that this is the “casting out” jesus speaks of. Not THE devil, but of our personal “devils” or shortfallings.
One’s actions have the greatest impact on oneself, which is why those that hate are so unhappy.
Right on, Hippie – we see it here on message boards all the time.
Doug
Jonathan, I think your’e a spoofer. Your vocabulary, spelling and use of the English language is nowhere near the level required to earn a Ph.D. Nice try.
Notice that all the PCs spew nothing but hate
@@
Nonsense. Are you so hateful and misguided that you feel compelled to engage in such silliness?
ACC:
Thats simply because i am not english. Gaeilge is my native tongue, and i got my PHD in Germany(thus by speaking German) English is my third language, which i did not learn until i was an adult. so excuse me for my grammatical and spelling errors.
Jonathan,
If you don’t recognize a literal devil, you are not Catholic.
Baptismal promises that you renew at your confirmation (when you become Catholic) include “Do you reject Satan, father of sin and prince of darkness?” This is literal. You made a literal vow and to go back on these vows is a sort of self-excommunication. Like a religious divorce. If you didn’t believe the vows you made in the first place, you’re just as much not Catholic as someone who recants them. Either way, you are not Catholic.
The catechism (beyond that, SCRIPTURES) speak of Satan as a literal being. First, Lucifer the angel, who led the rebellion and was cast into Hell. He steal exists, wandering the world looking to steal, kill and destroy.
Everytime you recieve Christ in the Eucharist, you announce your communion with the Church and Her teachings. Clearly you are not in that communion- and are thus not Catholic. Repent and reconcile and you can be, but don’t identify yourself as Catholic and spew lies about a figurative Satan (and slander Mother Teresa) lest non-Catholics get a misperception of Catholic doctrine.
I love the Church. Do not misrepresent Her.
Jonathan,
Peace to you … and welcome! It is very difficult to shift religious thought from one language to another. Even as a Canadian, who shares the same English language, I can detect huge difficulties in many American’s lives. [If I lived there, these would likely be not so obvious.]
I hope you will stay around, so that I can learn. I have a penpal in Germany who seems rather abrasive. Not so, he speaks/writes English as precisely and accurately as he can. He is often very (almost too) blunt. [This is very good because it forces me to reason as simply as possible.] Offense is almost always on my part … by failing to listen to what is being said.
Anonymous Christian, thank you for alerting me about the post by Jonathon. I will be editing it right now. Profanity has always been disallowed here.
Jacqueline:
Allow me to rephrase. I believe there IS a devil, i do not believe that he can reside in a human being. I do not believe in a literal casting out of Satan, since he is trapped in Hell, and if he were to be free in any way/shape/form, it would mean God is not allpowerful (which is impossible by definition)
John, I am fairly good with language, and can speak and read english perfectly. but my grammar and spelling are horrid. I shall most likely stick around, assuming all my post are not deleted as someone has already requested.
Jonathon, just to let you know, it’s very difficult to get your posts deleted here. So I wouldn’t worry about that too much. You can continue posting without worry of deletion (unless you blatantly disregard warnings, of course).
Thanks! :)
Jonathan, it is certainly the epitome of Catholic charity that even Mother Teresa cannot be given the benefit of a doubt. How convenient that she is not alive to defend herself from these accusations.
The real reason why Bl. Teresa is so reviled by various despicable people including Christopher Hitchens is that she was so strongly anti-abortion. That is the reason why she is being treated like a criminal, tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.
“the Church . . . doesnt offer indulgences anymore.” [Jonathan at 7:39PM]
I don’t mean to bend this thread too far away from the main question that Jill raised, which is an important one.
But, in response to the above comment about indulgences, I do want to remark that the Catholic Church most definitely does still “offer indulgences,” and has done so continuously both before and after Vatican Council II.
Here are just a few possibilities among many easily found examples from Catholic Church teaching that confirm this:
Catechism of the Catholic Church, numbers 1471, 1478 and 1479. [2nd English ed., published in 2000; an official publication of the Catholic Church]
The Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences, promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1967 (which is footnoted in the Catholic Catechism paragraphs above) [available online here]
The document “INCARNATIONIS MYSTERIUM” (mystery of the incarnation) by Pope John Paul II, issued in 1998 to inaugurate the year 2000 as a jubilee year in the Church. The “Conditions for Gaining the Jubilee Indulgence” appears as the final section of this document.
[available online here]
An address given by John Paul II, “INDULGENCES ARE EXPRESSION OF GOD?S MERCY” on 29 Sep, 1999, during the weekly Wednesday general audience. The text was published in the Vatican paper, L’Osservatore Romano, English edition, 6 Oct, 1999 [text available here]
The official Catholic Church publication, currently in effect, which gives instructions for how indulgences are to be applied and the theology behind them is called the “Enchiridion of Indulgences” (Latin title, “Enchiridion Indulgentiarum”) and was released for publication in 1999. This most recent version is the fourth edition (original was in 1968). The official decree accompanying the publication of this latest instruction on indulgences was printed in L’Osservatore Romano, English edition, 29 Sep, 1999. [the decree is available online here]
Note also, canons 992-997 of the current Code of Canon Law (the official law of the Latin Rite Catholic Church). These deal specifically with indulgences.
And, finally, one could refer to the recently published United States Catholic Catechism for Adults (2006), pages 244-45 (in the section on the Sacrament of Penance [i.e. confession]).
Sorry for going on, but the abundance of material available on indulgences, and the fact that they are very much still a living practice in the Church, suggests that someone who says that the Church “doesn’t offer indulgences anymore” is woefully uninformed.
The real reason why Bl. Teresa is so reviled by various despicable people including Christopher Hitchens is that she was so strongly anti-abortion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hitchens is anti-abortion.
Christopher Hitchens interview:
Q: Moving on to perhaps the subject that got you into hottest water with the left: abortion. Could you talk a little about your view on this?
Hitchens: Two points I wanted to make. One, that the term “unborn child” has been made a propaganda phrase by the people who called themselves “pro-life.” But it’s something that has moral and scientific realities. It’s become very evident indeed that this is not just a growth upon the mother.
If that’s true, what are the problems? It need not qualify the woman’s right to choose. It need not. But it would be a very bold person to say that what was being chosen didn’t come up. What I argued in my column was this was a social phenomenon. This is the next generation we’re talking about. Considering the unborn as candidate members– potential members–of the next generation; wouldn’t that strengthen the argument for socialized medicine, child care, prenatal care?
There’s a reason why this is the only country where it’s a mania. Because it’s between the fundamentalists and the possessive individualists. It’s ruined politics, absorbed a huge amount of energy that should have been spent elsewhere.
Q: But you’re not agreeing with the religious right on this?
Hitchens: No one who is not for the provision of sex education, contraception, and child care should be allowed to have any position on abortion at all–and those who do should be met with fusillades. Women will decide it, that’s a matter of fact, as much as a principle.
I seem to remember reading that Jesus himself experienced his own “dark night of the soul” the night before he was crucified.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong about this.
Jonathan,
With all due respect, you seem to be misinformed on many of the Catholic churches teachings. Indulgences, the ability of demons to possess people and Blessed Theresa’s dark night of the soul.
While you are more than within your rights to have opinions that differ with the churches, please do not represent yourself as a “knowledgeable Catholic”.
On the last thread, you went so far as to ask that God be kept out of any debates here.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1506 Christ invites his disciples to follow him by taking up their cross in their turn..114 By following him they acquire a new outlook on illness and the sick. Jesus associates them with his own life of poverty and service. He makes them share in his ministry of compassion and healing: “So they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.”.115
1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.
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Last Updated: Wednesday – 09/12/2007
Week of September 17, 2007
Mother Teresa’s dark night of the soul unveiled
Fr. Ron Rolheiser
In Exile
By FR. RON ROLHEISER, omi
A recent book on Mother Teresa, Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light, makes public a huge volume of her intimate correspondence and in it we see what looks like a very intense, 50-year struggle with faith and belief.
Again and again, she describes her religious experience as “dry,” “empty,” “lonely,” “torturous,” “dark,” “devoid of all feeling.” During the last half-century of her life, it seems she was unable to feel or imagine God’s existence.
And so some are making that judgment that her faith wasn’t real. Their view is that she lived the life of a saint, but died the death of an atheist.
For doctrinaire atheists, her confession of doubt is manna from the abyss. Christopher Hitchens, for example, writes: “She was no more exempt from the realization that religion is a human fabrication than any other person, and that her attempted cure was more and more professions of faith could only have deepened the pit that she dug for herself.”
What’s to be said about all of this?
What Mother Teresa underwent is called “a dark night of the soul.” This is what Jesus suffered on the cross when he cried out: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
When he uttered those words, he meant them. At that moment, he felt exactly what Mother Teresa felt so acutely for more than 50 years, namely, the sense that God is absent, that God is dead, that there isn’t any God.
But this isn’t the absence of faith or the absence of God, it is rather a deeper presence of God, a presence which can only be felt as an emptiness, nothingness, non-existence.
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Read Brother Francis post above for info on indulgences…
Also from the Catechism of The Catholic Church:
Abortion
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”77 “by the very commission of the offense,”78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”80
“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”81
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, “if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence.”82
2275 “One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival.”83
“It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material.”84
“Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity”85 which are unique and unrepeatable.
Mike,
You are correct:
What Mother Teresa underwent is called “a dark night of the soul.” This is what Jesus suffered on the cross when he cried out: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
When he uttered those words, he meant them. At that moment, he felt exactly what Mother Teresa felt so acutely for more than 50 years, namely, the sense that God is absent, that God is dead, that there isn’t any God.
Mike,
I should have cited the above…
In Exile
By FR. RON ROLHEISER, omi
Very interesting, Laura! So an atheist Christian hater like Hitchens is pro-life… sort of. Does that mean he’s trying to force his religion on us? Or do you acknowledge that the pro-life position that can be arrived at without Christianity or any other religion?
I stand corrected; in Hitchens’ case, he hates Bl. Teresa simply because she was a religious person, as he hates all people who are very religious. That is the common thread in all of his writing – an intense and often mindless hatred of all things and people religious. That’s exactly why he should never be taken seriously by anyone.
Yet there are still plenty of “liberal Catholics” who use gladly parrot Hitchens’ attacks as they despise Bl. Teresa for actually accepting Catholic teaching on abortion. And remember, she had the gall to challenge St. Bill Clinton (the greatest president of all time) on abortion right to his face. Blasphemy!
MK, in addition to Jesus Christ – God in the flesh himself – experiencing these feelings of separation from God the Father, in the Gospels we also see that every Apostle abandons Christ when he is arrested. Even Peter, who Christ chose as the “rock” upon which the church would be built, turned against Christ in denying him three times. Does that mean Peter didn’t believe? The Risen Christ stood before him!
I have always found it amusing that the anti-Christians tell us that the Apostles were just a bunch of proud, evil men who wanted power for their “patriarchy”. Yeah, that’s exactly why they wrote down in the Bible all of their sins and failings, and why they all went to their deaths rather than change their story about the Risen Christ.
Laura quoted Hitchens regarding the politics of abortion,
“There’s a reason why this is the only country where it’s a mania.”
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
American culture is vastly different from other countries because so many do not consider the government an authority. We think we are the authority.
There is mania because many people strongly oppose abortion and it is hard to squish free thought in a free society. The Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton decisions did not convince the general public. The American public does not supprt abortion on demand through all 9 months which is essentially the legal situation we have.
Abortion is still illegal in many places around the world. That doesn’t constitute mania of course. It reflects social values which may or may not also be the will of the people. People from outside these countries come in and push for legal abortion, but the residents?
An interesting aside, the lowest rates of cervical cancer (caused by the STI HPV) are in the middle east. Abortion is also not legal. That is strong evidence for the actual habits of the residents.
I know many are quick to judge these countries’ values, and say they exploit women. However, these countries look at us and see our pornography, abortion, single mothers dumped by husbands and lovers and distribution of contraceptives to unmarried teens and see it as exploitation of women and children.
There is a mania here because the laws do not really reflect the will of the people or cultural values.
John and Hippie,
I’m so glad that both of you are here!
PLEASE don’t leave?!?!?!?! EVER!
An interesting aside, the lowest rates of cervical cancer (caused by the STI HPV) are in the middle east. Abortion is also not legal. That is strong evidence for the actual habits of the residents.
I know many are quick to judge these countries’ values, and say they exploit women.
Posted by: hippie at October 14, 2007 8:25 AM
You are correct when you say that many people judge the values of those countries harshly. However, I disagree that they “exploit” women. I think that they oppress and abuse women. Any culture that still conducts “honor killings” isn’t a culture whose values should be reproduced or admired in a free society. I’ll take the risks of our society over the “benefits” of theirs any day.
All;
I should have been more clear, the church does not allow people to BUY their way into heaven, does not promote sin, and does not accept the fruits of sin.
JL;
I dislike Mother Teresa not because of her “dark night”… everyone has them. I dont dislike her stance on abortion…. i agree with it. And i dont think she was an evil, spiteful woman. I think she was good, kind and generally a great person. BUT she knowingly benefited from a crime (which to me is as bad as committing a crime…. and it is to most governments too). Personally, i believe Princess Dianna should be Sainted before Mother Teresa. She did as much work with the worlds children, Died young/tragically, and never took stolen funds, or let governments bribe her.(not saying MT did the last one)
Lastly, i have read all of/memorized most of the CCC (we had to for school here) and know what it says about the literal casting out of demons. I am pretty sure i stated in my first post “I dont believe in ……” which would mean it is different from the catholic belief. Many of my beliefs differ from traditional catholic teachings, yet i was still christened and confirmed into the catholic church, was an alter server for a few years, and will raise my children in that church. I have bled for my church, seen people die for the church (or simply for coming out of it at the wrong time). So excuse me if i still consider myself Catholic tho i disagree with the Literal Casting of Devils, and a few other minor things.
Jonathan
Personally, i believe Princess Dianna should be Sainted before Mother Teresa. She did as much work with the worlds children, Died young/tragically, and never took stolen funds, or let governments bribe her.(not saying MT did the last one)
Diana, who died as a possibly unrepetant non-Catholic, had affairs with married men (and aborted at least one child from such affairs), who gave out of the posh riches of her royalty with little personal sacrifice and did only a fraction of the work that Mother Teresa did…
vs.
Mother Teresa, the chaste, self-induced impoverished woman who had no Earthly possessions, and picked maggots out of the faces of the dying because as she said, “Everyone I see is Jesus to me. Wouldn’t you do that for Jesus?,” who, despite the spiritual challenge of the dark night, still served God fervently, attended mass faithfully, confessed her sins at least every week- and decided that even if she couldn’t feel God, she loved Him nonetheless and would always share that love with everyone around her. She picked the dying out of gutters and watched their limbs fall off, she held dying children as they took their last breaths…
You think Diana should be sainted before Blessed Teresa? You crucify Mother Teresa for a assumed indescretion while Diana lived a life of indescretions. Not to trample of Diana’s grave, she did do great work, but frankly, Diana and Teresa do not compare.
To answer your question shortly; Yes.
Dianna was given everything, but lived true to her heart even tho it caused her pain and grief (cant think of anyone else like that *cough*JESUS*cough*)
Mother Teresa did more work then dianna simply because she lived MUCH longer. And diannas work we for the betterment of all the people in the countries she worked in. It has been said that already, thanks to her work against Landmines, over 1 million people have been saved from maiming and death.
Dianna was born into money, and married money, and did great things with this money. Mother Teresa was poor, worked with the poor, and profited from someone who robbed the elderly to get her money. Not quite as noble in my eyes.
God brought to my attention today that so many of our honored spiritual fathers have made horrendous mistakes:
Moses: Killed a man
David: committed adultery with another man’s wife and had the husband killed to cover it up
Abraham: Lied and financially benefitted from it
Noah: was a drunkard
St. Paul: persecuted Christians
St. Peter: denied Jesus 3 times
Just a few who come to mind.
Nonetheless, these imperfect human men are rightly honored for their faithfulness in light of past mistakes.
Now,
Blessed Teresa: may or may not have taken stolen funds willfully and failed to make recompense.
Still, this woman, because of her faithfulness and Christ’s mercy, is in Heaven praying for us.
And lets not forget:
Jacqueline– has lied, cheated, been unchaste, been unfaithful, not honored her parents, consulted a psychic, thwarted authority, broken her word, and on and on…Read the 10 commandments and their implications and you’ll see that she’s broken them.
She certainly hopes to be in Heaven someday herself. Through God’s grace and mercy and my acceptance of it, I believe that I will persevere to the end.
So, Jonathan, perfection is not required for Sainthood. Blessed Teresa will be Saint Teresa very soon and rightly so.
Jacquelie; I understand all that. Abraham also married his half-sister. I myself commit a variety of sins on a daily basis. I just dont believe mother teresa has earned a “fast track” to Sainthood.
So it’s works that merit Sainthood vs. the state of one’s soul? Because I could do great things all day long and still spend an eternity in Hell for my failure to accept Christ. Lots of people that reject Christ do good works- and they will spend an eternity is Hell despite those works, because Christ is the ONLY way.
Sainthood isn’t based on weighing one’s works. It’s the nobility of one’s life, which includes the obedience to God in worship and reconciliation.
Diana’s works were one thing, but her spiritual life was another: She attempted suicide. She committed adultery. She killed her own baby. These are not the signs of an obedient soul submitted to the Lorship of Jesus. From the looks of her life, she seemed like a very spiritually lost woman.
So, as great as the work she did, she is hardly a model upon which to base our lives (do we want women attempting suicide, having affairs, aborting their children in the footsteps of Diana). The Saints are supposed to be such model(hence the scrutiny they fall under, which you have hijacked to impugn Blessed Teresa).
I am not denigrating Diana’s work, but comparing it to Mother Teresa’s is denigrating Mother Teresa’s work. It’s easier to give money and do PR than to pick maggots out of someone’s face, don’t you think?
I just dont believe mother teresa has earned a “fast track” to Sainthood.
And yet Diana has?
Firstly, No, dianna hasnt. i simply believe she was a better person the mother teresa.
Also, the CCC states that Suicide is not a mortal sin anymore. Also says you can undergo any of the 4 baptisms to get into heaven. (those being Water, Fire, Blood, Word, Spirit)
Someone put up an excellent post about the differences between Diana and Mother Theresa. I’m going to try to fing it. Diana even had an abortion. She was no saint.
We’re just not going to agree. I see Teresa as a Godly woman and Diana as a worldly one. I don’t see a worldly woman being a better person than a Godly one.
And even if suicide is no longer considered a mortal sin, affairs and abortion are. I know I’ve committed my share of mortal sins, but repentance is required. We see public repentance with those declared Saints. We don’t see that with Diana. Works, although penitential, are not salvific.
I don’t presume to know the status of one’s soul-whether they repented before death. I make hopeful prayers and believe in Christ’s mercy for people that accepted Him. But certain people run the race and persevere so righteously, that the Church can declare them blessed. Diana gave us no such reasons to presume that. We can simply pray for her soul and trust in Christ’s mercy.
Sainthood is a stretch. She died young, but she was no martyr. There’s also no evidence that she was a committed Christian. How faithful of a Protestant was she? I know countless saintly Protestants, but they all are faithful in attending worship. Was Diana (I don’t know.)? What I’m saying is, the scrutiny you condemn Blessed Teresa with should be likewise applied to Diana.
Wow, Diana is some kind of secular icon! The secular world has its honors: prizes (Nobel) for example. Use those! I don’t see why the non-religious feel the need to comandeer our Christian honors for their vulgar use. We retain the integrity of such honors to scrutinized Christians for a very good reason.
Diana is no Saint. A peace prize winner? Absolutely. But Sainthood is reserved for a select few, to which she fails to qualify.
Jacqueline;
i agree, we should put her under the same microscope as MT. and once that happens, i might change my mind.
Here’s the differences between Princess Diana and Mother Teresa…
One was young, tall and beautiful.
The other was old, short and homely
One kept herself in good shape physically.
The other took no special care of her body.
One was royalty.
The other was a commoner.
One was a princess.
The other was a nun.
One was rich.
The other possessed nothing that she could call her own.
One led the fashion parade for the world.
The other wore a simple blue and white cotton sari.
One left her palace for occasional excursions among the less-privileged.
The other was always in their midst.
One returned each night to the lap of luxury.
The other lived among the destitute and the dying.
One stored up treasures on earth.
The other stored up treasure in heaven.
One was of the world.
The other was in the world, but not of it.
One dabbled in astrology and ‘New Age’.
The other devoted time to prayer.
One had a nominal Christian faith.
The other lived a life of faith in God.
One broke up a family.
The other built up a community.
One tried to take her own life.
The other gave her life for others.
One fed the gossip columns with her questionable life-style.
The other was admired for her righteous lifestyle.
Let’s be honest with ourselves.
One was known as having committed adultery.
The other had opted for life-long celibacy.
One’s husband [Charles] was a spokesman for anti-Christian New Age philosophies.
The other’s spouse [Jesus Christ, the Bearer of the Water of Life] ushered in the true New Age of man.
One died with her lover in a high-speed car chase after a night of wining and dining, while her sons and their father were in another country.
The other died surrounded by her family, a sharing and caring community.
One’s last words were reported to be “Leave me alone.”
The other’s were “I love you, my Jesus.”
TIME magazine put Princess Diana on the cover and devoted 40 pages to her. The same issue gave 7 pages to Mother Teresa, buried at the back. The world’s response to the death of these two women reveals much about the spiritual emptiness and the values of the world today. Jesus said: ‘By their fruit you shall know them’ (Mt 7:16).So, judging by their fruit, which one was the true saint and which one the counterfeit?
In 1989, Mother Teresa said “There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ. Jesus is my God. Jesus is my Spouse. Jesus is my Life. Jesus is my only Love. Jesus is my All in All. Jesus is my Everything. Because of this, I am never afraid.”
Mike
Posted by: Mike at September 1, 2007 5:35 PM
Here is the article, and Mike gets the credit.
Dag, I meant the post….
Jonathan, Bl. Teresa obviously did not personally profit from any donations, so it would be nice if you stop suggesting that she did. It’s not like she used those donations to buy herself diamond earrings and yachts – all of that money went to her mission.
Again, you have tried and convicted Bl. Teresa without bothering to see her side of the story, a side which we may never fully understand, because Bl. Teresa is no longer alive. Based on one letter written by one prosecutor, you condemn the woman. It’s astonishing, really, the lack of charity you offer to this woman who gave 50 years of her life to spreading the faith and comforting the poor.
Then you said: “Also, the CCC states that Suicide is not a mortal sin anymore.”
What on earth are you talking about? Suicide is and always has been a mortal sin:
Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
-CCC 2280-2283
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
Those who commit suicide are in serious, serious danger of Hell. God can save these people, yes, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a mortal sin, and perhaps the worst of all sins.
Jonathan also said: “Lastly, i have read all of/memorized most of the CCC (we had to for school here) and know what it says about the literal casting out of demons. I am pretty sure i stated in my first post “I dont believe in ……” which would mean it is different from the catholic belief. Many of my beliefs differ from traditional catholic teachings, yet i was still christened and confirmed into the catholic church, was an alter server for a few years, and will raise my children in that church. I have bled for my church, seen people die for the church (or simply for coming out of it at the wrong time). So excuse me if i still consider myself Catholic tho i disagree with the Literal Casting of Devils, and a few other minor things.”
Well, I think you’re a complete fraud. How about that? You have made far, far too many mistakes in this thread alone for me to truly believe that you’re even a Catholic at all, the most glaring mistake being that you said that Mother Teresa was not made a saint, which shows remarkable ignorance of Catholicism for a supposed scholar of the faith. Now you’re saying that suicide is not a mortal sin, which is ridiculous, and that a charitable Protestant woman should be declared a Roman Catholic Saint, or at least that she has more right to be a saint than Bl. Teresa does. I have nothing against Protestants, but your remarks indicate further ignorance on your part. You also now say that there are FOUR types of Baptism, then you go on to list FIVE, when in reality there are THREE types of Baptism – Water, Blood, and Desire:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
-CCC 1257-1259
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM
What are we to make of this? Either your math skills are pathetic or you’re a fraud.
Your story seems to change every time you post, so to be honest, I don’t believe a word of it.
Jonathan, Bl. Teresa obviously did not personally profit from any donations, so it would be nice if you stop suggesting that she did. It’s not like she used those donations to buy herself diamond earrings and yachts – all of that money went to her mission.
Again, you have tried and convicted Bl. Teresa without bothering to see her side of the story, a side which we may never fully understand, because Bl. Teresa is no longer alive. Based on one letter written by one prosecutor, you condemn the woman. It’s astonishing, really, the lack of charity you offer to this woman who gave 50 years of her life to spreading the faith and comforting the poor.
Then you said: “Also, the CCC states that Suicide is not a mortal sin anymore.”
What on earth are you talking about? Suicide is and always has been a mortal sin:
Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
-CCC 2280-2283
Those who commit suicide are in serious, serious danger of Hell. God can save these people, yes, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a mortal sin, and perhaps the worst of all sins.
Jonathan also said: “Lastly, i have read all of/memorized most of the CCC (we had to for school here) and know what it says about the literal casting out of demons. I am pretty sure i stated in my first post “I dont believe in ……” which would mean it is different from the catholic belief. Many of my beliefs differ from traditional catholic teachings, yet i was still christened and confirmed into the catholic church, was an alter server for a few years, and will raise my children in that church. I have bled for my church, seen people die for the church (or simply for coming out of it at the wrong time). So excuse me if i still consider myself Catholic tho i disagree with the Literal Casting of Devils, and a few other minor things.”
Well, I think you’re a complete fraud. How about that? You have made far, far too many mistakes in this thread alone for me to truly believe that you’re even a Catholic at all, the most glaring mistake being that you said that Mother Teresa was not made a saint, which shows remarkable ignorance of Catholicism for a supposed scholar of the faith. Now you’re saying that suicide is not a mortal sin, which is ridiculous, and that a charitable Protestant woman should be declared a Roman Catholic Saint, or at least that she has more right to be a saint than Bl. Teresa does. I have nothing against Protestants, but your remarks indicate further ignorance on your part. You also now say that there are FOUR types of Baptism, then you go on to list FIVE, when in reality there are THREE types of Baptism – Water, Blood, and Desire:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
-CCC 1257-1259
What are we to make of this? Either your math skills are pathetic or you’re a fraud.
Your story seems to change every time you post, so to be honest, I don’t believe a word of it.
Yeah- what Mike said!
JL; Feel free to believe whatever you want of me. it really has no baring on the reality of “me”.
now; “Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance.”
i would say that means not all suicides are a mortal sin, and that those who commit suicide CAN, in fact, get into heaven.
Lastly, mother Teresa has NOT been sainted yet (forgive me, i dont know the proper word in english, and i highly doubt you speak Gaeilge) and i DO believe there are my people more deserving. i do NOT believe Di will ever be a saint, but that said, it does not take away from my belief she was a great person deserving of the honour.
However, if we love the mother as much and keep in mind the eternal welfare of her soul, and try to minister to her even after she has had the abortion, then all is not lost, and indeed good may come even after what seems like an absolute evil.
Posted by: Anonymous Christian at October 13, 2007 8:33 AM
It would be equally evil to ban elective abortion. I pray for those misguided souls who think banning abortion, making it a crime, and throwing people in jail for having abortions or helping them to obtain abortions come to the realization of just how wrong their agenda for fertile women and their families are.
Jonathan said: “i would say that means not all suicides are a mortal sin, and that those who commit suicide CAN, in fact, get into heaven.”
No kidding, but that’s obviously not what you said. Just because suicide doesn’t necessarily result in a one way ticket to Hell doesn’t mean it’s not a mortal sin.
So once again you’re changing your story. But since you claim to speak English as a second language, I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt – far more than you would grant to Bl. Teresa – and retract my calling you a fraud. I’ll just consider this a misunderstanding resulting from a language barrier.
JL;
A mortal sin IS a one way ticket to hell. They are grave matters and “truly a rejection of God
Unless I missed something here, WHAT is this “crime” that Mother Teresa “allegedly” was involved with/and/or benefitted from?
Jonathan,
Also, the CCC states that Suicide is not a mortal sin anymore.
These were your exact words. The CCC states that suicide is not a mortal sin anymore.
You didn’t say that in extreme circumstances it is possible that suicide will not result in eternal damnation, you said “The CCC states that suicide is NOT a mortal sin, anymore.”
This also implies that something changed. It did not. There were always circumstances where suicide would not necessarily result in eternal damnation.
I understand that you do not speak English as your first language. But the people on this thread do.
And they are the ones reading your words. You have appointed yourself an authority on all things Catholic, and therefore people are reading what you write and taking it to heart.
This is very dangerous. If you are not comfortable with the English language, then perhaps you should not be posting things that could lead people astray due to semantical errors.
Also, you are showing a great lack of integrity, insisting that you are a Catholic, when clearly you dissent from it’s teachings. Call yourself a former Catholic, a struggling Catholic, a lapsed Catholic…but please do not represent yourself here as not only a Catholic in good standing, but an authority on the faith.
Demons, demon possession, demon obsession…these are doctrine. Not some small difference. Doctrine…
I quote here, Father Jose Antonio Fortea, a Catholic priest, and exorcist and an expert in the field of demonology…
“Demons are personal spiritual beings, as is the chief demon, the devil. Those Christians who deny the existence of demons and say that they are merely symbols of evil are heretics. Against this false belief stand the teachings of Christ, the teahings of the Bible and the teachings of the church.”
CCC 395:
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries – of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.”275
Mike;
A man named Charles Keating stole billions of dollars from his investors and gave a large portion (millions) of it to Mother Teresa. When he was caught, he told the judge this, and the DA contacted MT… she refused to return any of the money to the people he stole it from.
Jonathan,
Suicide only qualifies as a “Grave Matter” if it is “intended as an example to others”
What are you on about now?
Where are you getting this from?
Three things are necessary for something to be a mortal sin.
1. The object must be grave matter
2. It must be done with full knowledge of the gravity.
3. It must be done with full consent.
NOWHERE does it say it must be done with the intent to be an example to others…
You sound less and less Catholic (lapsed or otherwise) with every post…I suggest you stick to pro-life and leave Catholicism to those who believe…
Jonathan,
I also have a hard time believing that Gaelic is your first language. Or second for that matter. The amount of people that speak primarily Gaelic is so small it could fit in a thimble. Where exactly are you from?
MK; it says in the CCC that “If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity…..”
from your post.
hence my saying “suicide is only a grave matter if intended as an example”
Jonathan, you should really quit while you’re behind. I understand that English is not your first language, but I’m still not going to give you a pass for saying things that are patently false.
Mortal sin WITHOUT ABSOLUTION is what usually results in a one way ticket to Hell. Since you die after you commit suicide, it’s not very easy for you to go take part in sacramental Confession once you’ve done it. The Catechism makes clear that by the grace of God, since He can act outside the Sacraments, it is possible for a person who commits the mortal sin of suicide to be saved.
ALL suicide is a grave issue, ie, mortal sin. But if you commit suicide as an example to others, it adds scandal into the whole mess.
Mike, the crime Mother Teresa is being accused of is that she did not return money which was donated to her mission when the man who donated the money was convicted of swindling large sums of cash out of other people. It’s convoluted at best, and considering that Bl. Teresa is not alive to explain herself, it’s not exactly fair to condemn her for it since we don’t know her side of the story.
MK; I am from Sallybrook, Co. Cork. in the ROI. I was born on May 6th, in St. Finbarr’s Hospital.
Oh, Mike is here. Hi Mike and MK. MK, Jon has come here and told us that he is PL. However, on another thread, he put up a post to help the PC side. I wonder…….Let’s work on that full conversion.
Oh Jonathan, Jonathan, Jonathan…
“If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity…..”
It is most definitely time to quit while you are behind…
The sentence, “”If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity…..”
does not mean ” “suicide is only a grave matter if intended as an example”
I’m afraid your grasp of the English language is worse than you thought. Suicide done with the intent of being an example to others, exacerbates the gravity. But it is NOT required. That simple word “ONLY” is what changed your entire post.
Suicide is ALWAYS a grave matter. Not ONLY when it is done with the intent to lead others to it…
Good Lord Man, stick to what you know!
And Hi John.
Heather;
facts are facts. it does no good to ignore the ones we dont like.
Jonathan,
MK; I am from Sallybrook, Co. Cork. in the ROI. I was born on May 6th, in St. Finbarr’s Hospital.
I don’t question whether you are from Ireland. My own sister lives in Cork. I question whether Gaelic is your first language.
Jon, WHAT FACTS? You posted a pro choice article about fetal pain. I then refuted yours with one of MY OWN! They conflict. It doesn’t make yours more true.
Hey Heather,
Jonathan needs to read his own words (If he can understand them)…facts are indeed facts, but he seems to think that they are open for interpretation.
Considering you are one of those “catholics” that is still learning, you would be a prime example of who could be hurt by reading his untruthful interpretations of the Catholic Churches Teachings.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Heather! Run, Toto, Run!
MK; then you should know that there are 200 000 of us native speakers, and i am proudly one of them.
Heather; Sorry, facts meaning “information”…. like you said, they conflict. yours or mine my be true, but it is important to look at everything from BOTH sides.
MK, LOL!!! It’s just like the numerous disputes over abortion and breast CA. The pro choice side doesn’t want you to think that there could even be a remote chance of a link between the 2. Jon, it would kill their sales. Don’t you get it? The abortion industry has one mission. SELL AS MANY ABORTIONS AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN!! The fetal pain arguement is just another strike against them.
Jonathan,
How old are you?
Heather, im sure as MK can tell you, Abortion is completely Illegal in Eire. unless the woman will die without it, she cannot have one here. So i dont believe the doctors doing these studies (over here at least) are too concerned with sales.
Even if abortion WAS legal, we have socialized healthcare (like most of the developed world does) and more abortions wouldnt make ANYONE more money.
Jon, when I go to a PC site, I can find many articles claiming that fetuses aren’t human, and they cannot feel any pain. The entire PC movement is, and always will be, a big fat lie! I don’t have to look at anything they have to say.
MK; not that its your business, but im over 30.
Sorry Jonathan,
I’m still having a hard time buying it…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaeltacht
facts are facts. it does no good to ignore the ones we dont like.
information is information. It does no good to ignore that which we don’t like…
hmmmm…doesn’t have quite the same ring now, does it.
Jon, you have already proven yourself a phoney. Nuf said. MK, I gotta go. See you later.
Jonathan,
Heather didn’t say anything at all about abortions for profit in Ireland. She said that your inclination to rearrange Catholic teaching to your liking was akin to pro choicers rearranging the findings on the breast cancer/abortion connection.
Mk; umm, yes? thats were the highest percent of the speakers live. there are also those of us whos parents moved out of the Gaeltacht and still taught us Gaeilge as our native tongue. Also, if you look, there is a dot on that map near Sallybrook in Cork that is quite green.
MK;
” Don’t you get it? The abortion industry has one mission. SELL AS MANY ABORTIONS AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN!! The fetal pain arguement is just another strike against them.” — Heather
THAT was what i was refering too, NOT the Breast Cancer Comment.
Jonathan,
Perhaps it’s not my business, but you have opened yourself up to scrutiny by making all of your false assertions. If you had said you were fourteen, I would have more easily excused your behavior. But as you are a grown man….well…you’re on your own.
Also, there is a resurgence of schools teaching Gaelic only to the young of Ireland and this would have made your story a wee bit more plausible.
If you truly are one of the great minority that grew up speaking only Gaelic, then my apologies to you sir. But I still have my doubts…
Jonathan,
” Don’t you get it? The abortion industry has one mission. SELL AS MANY ABORTIONS AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN!! The fetal pain arguement is just another strike against them.” — Heath
And again, where exactly does she say that Ireland is doing this?
You are entitled to your doubts MK, but i promise you, i am VERY proud to be in that minority. Yes, now in school Gaeilge is manditory…when i was of school age, i got shipped across the country just the be taught in Gaeilge.
MK; If you saw the article i posted originally you would see it was from Ireland/Britian. hence why i was pointing out that the doctors doing THAT research would not be biased by financial benefits.
Jonathan,
Surely you can understand my doubts. You also claimed to be an authority on Catholic teaching and we see where that got us.
I’ll take your word for it, tho, as I have nothing to lose.
My sister lives in Kinsale (Although she has been in Australia for the last year). Cork is beautiful, but I must say, I’m a Kerry girl myself. LOVE Killarney. Her husband is from Listowel.
Haven’t been back in 4 years now. If she moves home this year, I will try to go this summer.
What are you doing in Germany. (and please don’t tell me that you’re studying to be a priest. lol)
Jonathan,
Britain does abortions. So your article would still not refute the abortion for profit.
MK; No, definately not a priest. I actually own my own Pub, O’Rhys. and supply teach.
Are you and your sister Irish? or did she just move there?
i miss it a lot, but i can be home in a few hours if i choose, so its not too bad. And i can understand, i know my language is a rarity amongst people my own age. My wife cannot speak enough to order dinner :P
Also; tho britain does do abortions, no one profits. Social Health Care FTW.
It seems like most of the European countries are not what they used to be. Dublin might as well be Chicago.
Not that this is a bad thing. But it does pull ones heartstrings to realize that Ireland is not necessarily Irish anymore. Something your parents understood as they resisted even giving in where language is concerned.
I was actually adopted as was my sister, but we were raised by two Irish Parents and I know more about being Irish/American than I do about my own nationality (Which apparently is Italian and German)…
My sister Irish Danced for years and seriously dated Mark Howard of Trinity Irish Dance School.
She married Denis 6 years ago. He’s a native. He owns a house across the street from the Spaniard in Kinsale. It used to be a B & B, which is how my sister met him.
I love the country, but hate the weather! And the music! Don’t get me started. I’d live there just for that!
So why did you move to Germany? Is your wife German?
I dont believe in the Devil. like i said, mankind is evil without his help. I put the blame where it is due, when i mess up it means *I* have made mistakes. i am not about to blame some fictional character. What if i told you the reason i killed 32 people was “the boogie man told me too”….. ya, i would be INSANE.
Edited by moderator Bethany at 9:33 PM
Posted by: Jonathan at October 13, 2007 5:37 PM
Jonathan – you do realize that the above is EXACTLY what Scientologist (sp?) believe, right? Tom Cruiser would be livid.
Jonathan, (thank Kristen)
I didn’t read that closely enough the first time.
Do you think that the church is saying that the devil can “make” you do things?
Because it isn’t. He can tempt you, but ultimately, the final choice is ALWAYS yours.
My wife is actually American. She came to Germany for school (an exchange) and i was attending school here (University of Berlin has a great theology and philosophy department). she transfered here the next year, and we have been together ever sense.
I love the music of home. Do you know Wolfetones?
Because it isn’t. He can tempt you, but ultimately, the final choice is ALWAYS yours.
Posted by: mk at October 14, 2007 3:17 PM
Right MK, free will and all.
MK, Kristen;
I agree, thats what i was trying to say. the devil can TEMPT you, but he cannot POSSESS you and make you do things. he is not “real” in the way you and I are “real”. His corprial form is locked in Hell, and his spirit of malice and evil is everywhere. we see the good and the bad and choose which to do. the blame is not on the devil, but on us.
Mother Teresa was poor, worked with the poor, and profited from someone who robbed the elderly to get her money. Not quite as noble in my eyes.
Posted by: Jonathan at October 14, 2007 11:21 AM
Actually Mother Teresa was very well off in her youth and spoke about living in the two homes her family owned. She gave up her worldly goods to bring good to others.
Exactly Kristen…
Bishop Sheen says, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church
Jonathan,
I know of the Wolftones. And Gaelic Storm. I’m partial to the ballads myself. Love Christy Moore.
And of course the whistle. And while I know he is Scottish, I adore Dougie Maclean.
Jonathan,
I agree, thats what i was trying to say. the devil can TEMPT you, but he cannot POSSESS you and make you do things. he is not “real” in the way you and I are “real”. His corprial form is locked in Hell, and his spirit of malice and evil is everywhere. we see the good and the bad and choose which to do. the blame is not on the devil, but on us.
You still don’t have it quite right. The devil, or Satan or Lucifer is just one of many demons. And they are certainly not “locked” in hell. They roam as free as you and I.
They are also as real as you or I. The only difference is that they are pure spirit, whereas we are a mix of spirit and physical. We have a foot in the world of animals and the world of spirits.
And they can, indeed, possess us. They can use our bodies. But for the most part they must be invited in (even unknowingly, as in dabbling in the occult)…you never lose your free will however.
A wise priest explained it to me this way.
You live in a fort (think Charles Fort in Ireland) and the devil is outside attacking with bows and arrows, rocks, whatever…this is temptation.
Sometimes he will breach your defenses and have a greater influence on you. This is called obsession and exhibits itself in addictions and such.
Finally, and very rarely, he can enter your fortress and overtake it. This is possession.
But never, ever, ever make the mistake of believing that he is bound and unable to roam freely.
I enjoy Ballads as well. Foggy Dew (the version by Sinead O’Connor) is possibly my favourite song of all time.
Do you Follow rugby at all? i cried when Ireland got put out. but South African is raping Argentina right now.
I agree, thats what i was trying to say. the devil can TEMPT you, but he cannot POSSESS you and make you do things. he is not “real” in the way you and I are “real”. His corprial form is locked in Hell, and his spirit of malice and evil is everywhere. we see the good and the bad and choose which to do. the blame is not on the devil, but on us.
Posted by: Jonathan at October 14, 2007 3:30 PM
MK, I might need help here…Wasn’t it Saint John Vianny who was tormented by demons? (Among others) I believe there were well documented instances of this. Padre Pio would often have conversations with demons, as well as documented cases of bilocation (lest you think he was a crazy old man.) Jesus himself was tortured by temptation from Satan in the desert.
Jonathan, I don’t see how you can pick and choose what to believe in the Catholic Church. Medjugorje hasn’t been investigated so the Church will not officially endorse the messages coming from there. The Church is very thorough in all its investigations.
I have to go make dinner and then play “Harry Potter” with my 7 year old right now…but I’ll be back.
Kristen, you are exactly right. Demons (in the flesh) attacked many, many saints.
Once Therese of Avila awoke with a start, terrified. She sat up and saw a demon on the end of her bed. Her response? “Oh it’s only you” and she promptly went back to sleep.
Padre Pio was physically attacked many, many times. He was left bruised and bloody after these attacks. And John Boscoe (I believe) had a black dog follow him around.
I’ll get more later, but gotta go now.
St. Michael, The Archangel, defend us in the day of battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do Thou, The Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into hell, satan and ALL THE EVIL SPIRITS WHO PROWL THE EARTH SEAKING THE RUIN OF SOULS. Amen
See ya, MK. My husband is starting to say this site is an addiction for me, I’m starting to agree. I’ll have to take a break.
Kristen.
I “pick and choose” just like all christians do. for instance many do not believe we are meant to follow Mosaic Law anymore. Yet Jesus clearly states in three of the four Gospels that we should, in fact, follow it. (and here are the verses)
I don’t see how having a black dog follow you around is a sign of demonic presence. Unless it was the Grim………
Kristen,
See, thats the difference, i believe something Jesus said (in each Gospel) is more important then something Paul wrote. Jesus > Paul so to speak.
I don’t see how having a black dog follow you around is a sign of demonic presence. Unless it was the Grim………
Posted by: JKeller at October 14, 2007 4:27 PM
Actually the black dog was PROTECTING him from demons. Really it’s fascinating to read about him.
http://www.thefunnydogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/devil-dog.jpg
Jonny says: “Also; tho britain does do abortions, no one profits. Social Health Care FTW.”
Long waits and poor medical care FTW!
Oh, ahem, sure, nobody profits from abortion when the “government” (ie, the people) is forced to pay for it. In socialist countries, they kill babies just for the fun of it. Of course it usually has something to do with daddy government deciding that one kid per family is enough.
JL;
Yes, us damn commies love our baby killing.
Actually, britian has no such policy, i am IRISH, and abortion is completely illegal here. and we have socialized healthcare. then again so does CUBA…. and Cuba also has a higher life expectancy then the US…. conincidence?
Yeah, Jon, and there are no slums in Cuba, either. And everyone loves Lord Fidel, the wonderful grandpappy of every little Cuban boy and girl. In the evening, they all gather ’round the campfire and sing Kumbaya.
JL;
whats your point? are there no slums in america?
What about Canada, they have socialized health care?
And you ignored my point about Eire. It has socialized health care AND Illegal abortion.
Carol wrote:
Any culture that still conducts “honor killings” isn’t a culture whose values should be reproduced or admired in a free society. I’ll take the risks of our society over the “benefits” of theirs any day.
Posted by: Carol at October 14, 2007 9:55 AM
______________________
I absolutely agree about some activities in those societies, but I feel the same way about pornography and abortion, and pushing sex at our young unmarried people in western society.
Maybe those in the middle east feel the same as you do in as much as they would rather take the risks of their society over the “benefits” of ours any day.
We are used to our flaws and they are used to theirs.
We are biased and they are biased.
This is not objective criteria.
There is no perfect society.
There is always room for improvement.
Laura, QUITE CUTE!! I love Pugs!!
Getting back to Jill’s original question. I think in a very powerful way the self-identity of the woman is locked-in/fused to the concept that she is alone cast-off from affection. Perhaps, she knows that she has killed the only person who ever knew (would ever be intimate) with her child.
Much of this is a guess but I suspect a very deep relationship beyond words. We often talk about powerful mother-child bonding and assume most of this is language dependent. Perhaps, there is a bonding very much before and much more diffuse than any words.
Here, I’m kind off thinking about my friend Rita, who knew exactly the sex of her next offspring even BEFORE they were conceived. She was never wrong and would actually cry when she wasn’t pregnant.
Ireland is not a good example of a right-to-life society, because Irish women routinely travel to England for their abortions.
SoMG, is that so? i would LOVE to see some stats on that, because i have only heard of a few isolated cases.
According to this article the Irish have voted (by referendum) against legalizing abortion 5 times in 20 years.
Sounds like democracy.
Also according to the article 6000 go to England yearly for abortion.
http://www.worldpress.org/europe/0402eire.htm
Hippie: 5200 by my math. and many for “life saving” abortions.
also, that number includes North Ireland, were abortion is illegal, but they get it free in britian since they are commonwealth citizens.
Also, i know we are a democracy, the Commie comment was because someone said socialists kill foetus for fun.
And there is a Communist party of Ireland. I am a member.
Jonathan,
I think the rate according to the article is a little less than half the rate of abortion in the US.
Well, according to the Irish Family Planning Association, 6000 Irish women travel to England for abortions every year.
Jon, I’m quite glad that abortion is illegal in Ireland. I don’t really see what that has to do with socialism one way or the other, but it’s good, regardless. Your point about socialism doesn’t seem particularly relevant to me, unless the UK has gone full Commie. As far as I know it has not, and so there is still some measure of economic freedom and thus ways in which profit can be made.
As for Cuba, it’s kind of silly for us to talk about how great of a country it is when foreigners are arrested for taking pictures of the supposedly non-existent slums there. It’s not exactly an open society, and yet we trust the numbers they give us about life expectancy.
Jonathan,
The article notes that no other exceptions are allowed but life and threatened suicide.
I
I asked this before:
In the UScase of abortion regulation, I know there is a broad exception for the health of the mother including psychological health.
Has anyone seen any data supporting the notion that abortion actually protects a mother’s psychological health in some case?
I am looking for a study, not a story about your “friend”
I ask because generally for procedures to be recommended for conditions, they have to show evidence of effectiveness based on some sort of data.
I mean what is the point of doing an abortion in the case of threatened suicide if the suicide rate is higher after the abortion than if the abortion is denied?
Hippie; I dont know know of any such study. but i know in all of the ROI only 70 women a year commit suicide. if that helps your reasoning at all.
Yes, Jon, socialists kill unborn children for fun. Commies don’t discriminate, however; they kill the unborn and the born equally. Both the Nazis and the Commies had quite a bit of fun murdering my Polish Catholic brethren. The very idea that you proudly proclaim that you are a Communist is offensive to me, and to me no different than if you claimed to be a Nazi. Isn’t that swell?
It’s no wonder you’re a cafeteria Catholic if you consider yourself a Communist. Both extremes of Communism and unbridled Capitalism are incompatible with the Catholic faith.
Great, another ignorant yank who confuses Stalinism for Communism. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.
The “abortion boat” steams toward Ireland
Women on Waves will provide medical abortions to women in international waters.
– – – – – – – – – – – –
By Carina Chocano
June 14, 2001 | Earlier this week, a 100-foot converted fishing trawler, christened the “Aurora” but also widely referred to as the “Sea of Change,” left the Dutch port of Scheveningem for Ireland. The Aurora belongs to a women’s human rights organization called Women on Waves, which was founded by Dutch physician Rebecca Gomperts. Since leaving the Netherlands, the ship — which was due to dock June 14 at Dublin’s Sir John Rogerson’s Quay — has been besieged by bad weather and worse news.
The Aurora carries aboard it two Dutch doctors, one Dutch nurse and the “A-portable,” a mobile gynecological unit fitted inside a shipping container equipped to provide nonsurgical abortions to women living in countries where abortion is illegal. The Aurora, which is registered in the Netherlands, is subject to Dutch law while in international waters; so Irish women wishing to terminate their pregnancies will be taken 12 miles offshore where they will be administered RU-486, otherwise known as the “abortion pill.” Gomperts devised this plan while working as a doctor on Greenpeace’s anti-whaling vessel the Rainbow Warrior.
The Aurora’s crew planned to spend three weeks in Ireland educating women and healthcare providers on reproductive health and family planning as well as providing medical abortions to as many as 20 women per day before continuing on to Brazil. Two days after the ship set sail, however, Holland’s Justice Minister Benk Korthals told the Dutch Parliament that “abortions are illegal without a license,” and that the Aurora’s medical staff could face a fine and four and a half years in prison if it is determined that they performed unlicensed abortions. The Women on Waves foundation reportedly applied for a license before leaving the Netherlands, but set sail before receiving it.
According to Women on Waves’ spokesperson Joke van Kampen, who spoke to Salon yesterday from Dublin, the organization has asked the government to clarify which laws apply to them.
Union of Concerned Scientists
Print story
E-mail story
“The government is investigating in cooperation with us,” she says. “They never used the word ‘illegal’ in reference to us. What he said was that performing illegal abortions in the Netherlands can result in four years in jail. When we get back to the Netherlands, they will inspect the clinic closely.”
Van Kampen said that the upcoming government investigation will not alter the foundation’s plans to provide offshore abortions to Irish women “where medically appropriate.”
“It won’t affect it at all,” van Kampen said. “It might affect Women on Waves and the position of the doctors, but it does not in any way affect our clients in Ireland.”
Korthals has said that no action can be taken until the boat returns to the Netherlands.
As storms delay the ship’s arrival, Human Life International, an Irish pro-life group, says it is coordinating the launch of a counter-mission, “Operation Babe-watch.” The group’s director, Patrick McCrystal, told the Belfast News Letter, “We have commissioned a lifeboat to sail and offer a ‘life’ alternative to women instead of death. We are offering practical pregnancy counseling on our boat, priestly spiritual assistance on board and guaranteed practical help and support during and after a woman’s pregnancy.”
Meanwhile, Bishop Michael Cox — whose boat, the Little Bishop, is normally chartered for offshore baptisms and marriages — has said he will sail to meet the ship as it enters Irish waters, and has vowed to fight the ship out at sea if necessary.
“I am calling on all fishermen of good conscience and all those with ships and boats to join me on this,” Cox has said.
Van Kampen said yesterday that the crew of the Aurora has not encountered any seafaring pro-life activists. It has been reported, however, that Aurora’s crew may be issued bulletproof vests to protect them against possible hostilities.
Ireland is one of three remaining European countries, along with Poland and Malta, where abortion remains illegal. At least 6,000 women per year travel to England each year to obtain abortions.
According to Women on Waves, approximately 25 percent of the world population lives in countries with highly restrictive abortion laws, yet about one-third of all pregnancies are unplanned and one-fourth of all pregnant women worldwide choose to terminate pregnancy. The World Health Organization estimates that of the 53 million abortions performed annually, 20 million of them are performed illegally under unsafe conditions.
“Great, another ignorant yank who confuses Stalinism for Communism. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.”
Pol Pot? Mao? both commies who killed millions. Jonathan, are advocating for communism?
Recent from the UK:
Laura,
You’re killin’ me here…
Demon dogs indeed!
(more like demon cats…)
Whatever, Jonny. Keep on defending your objectively evil economic and political system. That’s waaay off topic, anyway, and I really have no interest in continuing the discussion. Just stop making up crap about the Catholic Church and the Catechism and I’ll be happy.
Jasper, Jon will no doubt tell you that Pol Pot and Mao weren’t practicing REAL Communism. That’s what they all say. The reality is that Communism is always the destruction of freedom and usually leads to mass murder as well. Like the other extreme of unbridled Capitalism, it crushes the common man under the boot of the elites.
I fully agree John L.
for anybody who cares: New England Patriots kicked butt today again….
JL; we aint buddys, dont call me Jonny.
and no, they werent Pol Pot was a Maoist dictator. Mao (the namesake of the doctrine) was too. True communism ENDS government and ends in civil anarchy…. but like i said, they dont teach that in american school. (remember, Yank wife.)
You’re right Kristen. That dog was protecting him.
I forgot that. Just remembered the “black” dog…
Thanks.
John L.,
Come on over to the Auschwitz Post…I could use ya.
Sure thing, mk. Nothing worth commenting on here. Just an ignoramus who thinks we “Yanks” don’t understand that the economic theory of Communism is that all wealth and possessions are equally shared among all people, but in practice, Communism amounts to the death of freedom, the death of free will, and the death of millions of people who object to having their money “redistributed”. Somehow I doubt that everybody in Ireland has a computer and internet access. A real Communist with ensure that everybody has a computer before using his own.
JL; Look into the Kibbutz in Israel, they are the closest thing to a true communism we have in this world. when you have done that, lemme know.
I found a study on abortion and suicide
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/313/7070/1431
Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study
Objective: To determine rates of suicide associated with pregnancy by the type of pregnancy.
Design: Register linkage study. Information on suicides in women of reproductive age was linked with the Finnish birth, abortion, and hospital discharge registers to find out how many women who committed suicide had had a completed pregnancy during her last year of life.
Setting: Nationwide data from Finland.
Subjects: Women who committed suicide in 1987-94.
Results: There were 73 suicides associated with pregnancy, representing 5.4% of all suicides in women in this age group. The mean annual suicide rate was 11.3 per 100 000. The suicide rate associated with birth was significantly lower (5.9) and the rates associated with miscarriage (18.1) and induced abortion (34.7) were significantly higher than in the population. The risk associated with birth was higher among teenagers and that associated with abortion was increased in all age groups. Women who had committed a suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy.
Conclusions: The increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion indicates either common risk factors for both or harmful effects of induced abortion on mental health.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
According to the study abortion increases risk of suicide six fold over carrying to term.
Suicide is Finland’s national pastime. Until recently, Finland was the suicide capitol of the world. The high suicide rate is widely assumed to be caused by the massive rate of alcoholism – which also contributes to huge numbers of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.
While there is a correlation, there’s really no cause-and-effect relationship there. Chronic substance abusers tend to get knocked-up and kill themselves more often than the population at large. You mmmight note that while the numbers of abortions in Finland has risen, the suicide rate has dropped significantly:
Finland no longer the suicide capital of the world
HELSINKI (AFP) – Finland has finally shed a bleak record as one of the world’s suicide capitals after the number of people taking their own lives in this Nordic state has dropped by 40 percent in the past 15 years.
Nowadays around 18 out of 100,000 people commit suicide each year in Finland, about the same level as in France and Austria. In 1990, the number was 30 per 100,000.
The decline is attributed largely to better treatment for depression, but even experts cannot really explain why the drop has been so dramatic, admits psychiatrist Jouko Loennqvist, the head of the mental health department of Finland’s National Public Health Institute.
“Depression is more often properly recognised, prevented and treated. We have had special projects and campaigns about depression, which is now better recognised and treated. Psychological support and social support are nowadays in better condition,” he said.
Finland’s dire reputation as a nation of suicidals dates back to the 25-year period from 1965 to 1990 when Finland experienced an economic and urban boom.
During that period, the suicide rate tripled.
By 1991, Finland was the world leader in teen suicides, and among the top three in overall suicides alongside New Zealand and Iceland.
Faced with the grim figures, Finnish authorities dramatically increased funding to improve mental health and since 1991 the amount of available psychiatric help has doubled.
“We also have a lot of new antidepressant drugs (which are) easy to use, whereas until the late 1980s and beginning of the 1990s, practicians usually gave patients anxiolytics (anti-anxiety drugs) and sedatives,” Loennqvist said.
Awareness campaigns in schools and among military conscripts also seem to have paid off, as the suicide rate among adolescents and young adults has dropped by 30 percent since 1991.
But the suicide rate is still high among young men — it is the main cause of death among males aged 20 to 34.
Among all ages and genders, the suicide rate is highest in isolated and economically disadvantaged regions in the east and north of the country. By contrast, it is lower in the Swedish-speaking regions on the west coast.
The typical profile of a Finnish suicide victim is a man in his 40s, divorced and unemployed, alcoholic and in poor health.
In addition to traditional risk factors such as depression, alienation, personal problems and unemployment, Finnish researchers single out alcoholism as the biggest single risk factor.
“The social factor exists but it’s not crucial,”, said Mauri Marttunen, a professor of youth psychiatry at Helsinki University, noting that Finland’s strong economy has made it one of the richest countries per inhabitant and that it has a narrow gap between rich and poor.
However, “half of all suicides are linked to alcohol, and one-third of all suicides have been (committed by) alcohol-dependent persons,” Loennqvist said.
Finns drink the equivalent of 10 liters (2.64 gallons) of pure alcohol per year per person, according to figures from the World Health Organization from 2004.
That’s less than the French, who drink 14 liters, but more than Swedes or Norwegians who drink seven and six liters respectively.
Experts meanwhile dismiss the widespread belief that Finland’s dark winters, where the sun doesn’t rise at all in the north for several months, play a role in the suicide rate.
“There is a link (between darkness and suicide) but it’s not an important explanation,” Loennqvist said, noting that suicides tend to peak each year at the end of spring when the sun shines late into the day.
And experts point out that Norway, located at the same latitude, for a long time had a suicide rate that was half that of Finland.
Hey Laura,
I didn’t know that about suicide in Finland. I still think the disrepancy in noteworthy.
Another item we were discussing last week was abortions to live birth ratios.
I found this article and quote based on Guttmacher data:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/10/11/abortion.global.ap/index.html?iref=werecommend
In eastern Europe, there are more abortions than live births: 105 abortions for every 100 live births, the research found. In Western Europe, there are 23 abortions for every 100 live births.
In North America, there are 33 abortions for every 100 live births, while in Africa, where abortion is illegal in most countries, there are 17 abortions for every 100 live births.
The article asserts that abortion is just as common when it is illegal, but the numbers in the article don’t seem to support that.
Laura,
This study was done in California with results similar to the Finland study.
Suicide Deaths Associated with Pregnancy Outcome
A Record Linkage Study of 173,279 Low Income American Women
Poster Presentation at the
First World Congress on Women’s Mental Health
Berlin, March 27-31, 2001
ABSTRACTDesign: Record linkage study. State funded medical insurance records identifying all paid claims for abortion or delivery in 1989 were linked to the state death certificate registry.
Subjects: A population of 173,279 low income women eligible for state-funded medical insurance in California, United States, who had either an induced abortion or delivery in 1989.
Results: Aborting women who had no known live births were significantly more likely to die than women with no known history of abortion, and women with a history of both abortion and childbirth. The relative risk was highest when comparing low income women with only one known pregnancy outcome. Compared to women who delivered, those who aborted had a significantly higher age adjusted risk of dying from all causes (1.62), from suicide (2.54), and accidents (1.82), as well as a higher risk of dying from nonviolent causes (1.44). Higher suicide rates were most pronounced in the first four years. Notably, the average annual suicide rates per 100,000 in our sample, 3.0 for delivering women and 7.8 for aborting women, bracketed the national average suicide rate of 5.2 for women ages 15-44. The higher death rates were significant across an eight year period and over four of the six age groups examined.
Conclusions: The pattern of death rates associated with prior pregnancy outcomes among low income women of California are similar to the pattern previously observed among the general population of women in Finland. Moreover, the apparent beneficial effects of childbirth and/or the detrimental effects of pregnancy loss persist over many years. Abortion experience may operate as a causal factor in suicide, risk-taking, or unhealthy behaviors or it may be a marker for other stress factors that increase the likelihood of death. The results are discussed in context of related literature.
Jasper,
That was a good game – the Cowboys not lying down and giving up, though New England pulled away late.
I’m from Ohio, and Belichick – just one more coach that leaves Cleveland and goes on to do well, like so many players….sigh.
Ohio State – talk about “backing” into a #1 ranking. But I’ll take it.
Late game last night, Boise State beat Nevada 69 – 67. Gotta love it.
Doug
Yes, women who engage in high-risk behaviors – like unprotected sex – are far more likely to engage in other high-risk behaviors, like substance abuse.
You noted death from “all causes.” Doesn’t it make sense that women who are stuck at home with an infant are less likely to be out partying, base-jumping and other high risk behaviors? Wouldn’t that contibute to the death rate?
Laura, indeed, and it’s putting the cart before the horse to say that abortion “causes” things which may simply be coincident occurences.
Additionally, do those occurences constitute a good reason to take away the freedom that women have in the matter of continuing or ending pregnancies? I say heck no.
Doug
Doug, Laura,
My original point was that late term abortions can be banned but there are exceptions for maternal health including psychological health.
My point is whether the evidence suggests that psychological health can be helped by abortion.
These studies show at least some detriment, has anyone seen any studies that show any benefit to psychological health?
We can’t responsibly say something is beneficial when the available evidence is to the contrary.
How about the fact that we know that post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis are FAR more prevelent than PTSD triggered by abortion.
If you start with a woman who has a pre-existing mental disorder – like Andrea Yates – and tack on some lovely post-partum psychosis, the results are often tragic.
Laura,
I’m pretty sure both the studies I cited showed and increase in depression after abortion as compared to after delivery.
You can see for yourself.
Has anyone seen any data supporting the notion that abortion actually protects a mother’s psychological health in some case?
Hippie, I’ve posted stuff about it before (last August) – here’s a few quotes:
“Women who have had one abortion do not suffer adverse psychological effects. In fact, as a group, they have higher self-esteem, greater feelings of worth and capableness, and fewer feelings of failure than do women who have had no abortions or who have had repeat abortions”
“80% of women were not depressed after having an abortion. In fact, the rate of depression in the postabortion group was equal to the rate of depression in the general population. As for post-traumatic stress symptoms, the rate was 1% in the postabortion group compared with an estimated 11% in women of the same age in the general population.”
________
There is no evidence that women who have had abortions make less loving or suitable parents —
Bradley, Christine F. (1984). “Abortion and Subsequent Pregnancy.” Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 29, 494-8.
…….
Women who have had one abortion do not suffer adverse psychological effects. In fact, as a group, they have higher self-esteem, greater feelings of worth and capableness, and fewer feelings of failure than do women who have had no abortions or who have had repeat abortions —
Russo, Nancy Felipe &
Hippie,
As you know, (or maybe not?) Val hasn’t been around because she is putting together a website that will debunk the myths from both sides of the table.
I sent her your Finland post and she was thrilled!
Here is what she said:
AWSOME!!!!!! The BMJ is highly respected and considered top notch! The AP almost always quotes from them! Give Hippie a big pat on the back for that one!
I’ll make sure that ends up on my website!!! Also, important to note that it looks like that study was done in 1996. 11 years ago.
Doug,
Thanx for the post about post abortion mental health.
I will try to find them to read.
I don’t know how all these studies were designed, but I do know that studies based on questionaires tend to be less reliable because people can choose not to participate also there is variable selection criteria by the investigator.
The studies I cited had no possible way to opt out. They were based on documented events from the public record: abortion procedures, births and death records.
No one could choose not to participate. Over 170,000 women.
Social sciences are particularlly vulnerable to investigator and subject bias because people speak for themselves.
To overcome such bias the investigator uses measures such as insurance claims for mental and physical health services and public records. It is important to have a large sample and no self selection options. That way the investigator counts everyone whether they want to be counted or not. This improves the quality of the study by controlling the variables.
BTW, many would consider someone who has committed suicide to be a poor mother. For each who actually dies there are others who attempt and fail. I am not making this up. One might say at least some have low self esteem.
I don’t know the ratio of suicide attempts to actual suicides, I think it is safe to assume it must be greater that 1:1 since not every attempt results in death which would be a 1:1 ratio.
Since those who have an abortion are 5-6 times more likely to commit suicide than those who deliver, we have to assume that there is some corresponding number of attempts. Which of course implies that the post abortive woman is also 5-6 times more likely to attempt suicide. Here again we can use our intelligence guided by experience to infer that these are not happy people.
Correlation is not causation, however high levels of correlation certainly beg further investigation.
Doug,
I looked for some of those articles and the only place I could find them all referenced was the PP website.
Everyone chooses studies that make their point.
This is no secret.
However it appears PP chose the studies you cited.
Here is one study cited by Doug that I was able to actually find.
Sample size: 58 women
Method: interviews and questionaire
Wellbeing and mental growth-long-term effects of legal abortion.
Kero A, H
If someone murders their baby then that means they are now a murderous soul.
I must reiterate:
The very SIGHT of the so-called “princess Diana” makes me flatulate!
Hi hippie,
it may be good to caution people about ‘scientific studies’ as being authoritative. Most people assume that having a PhD or an MD after their name gives people wisdom as well as smarts. Far too often, (even in recent history) this is NOT the case. Instead such titles are used as a sales gimmic and have little (or no) special insight at all.
For some months now Doug and I have been discussing much of the background that gives rise to abortion/anti-abortion mentality. And then this from Doug: it just blew me away … it was like going way back to step #1 and gross stupidity. It was you who cited PP as reference – not Doug. But it still remains unchallenged. I suspect that such a good view of abortion by Dr. Grimes is found mainly because he is the vice-president of an abortion mill or chief councilor to such (cloaked in the biz language as: “biomedical affairs at Family Health International, a nonprofit group in Research Triangle Park, N.C., that helps women and men obtain access to family planning services and methods.”) … much too much verbage! I mean, if you want a positive spin, like who else would you ask?
Jill has a propensity to quote from PP or other pro-abortion sources, because all others are rejected by the PC side. But PL people should be more than a little cautious about using ANYTHING from them to back up statements … especially those with MD or PhD after their name.
it may be good to caution people about ‘scientific studies’ as being authoritative. Most people assume that having a PhD or an MD after their name gives people wisdom as well as smarts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah! It’s like when people quote “Dr.” David Reardon even though his Ph.D is from a phony diploma mill called Pacific Western University.
exactly Laura – this goes both ways … not only PL’ers beware, but PC’ers too!
Actually, Laura, I just recently found out that David Reardon has THREE PH.D’s, not just two. So, I think I might call him. He has the electronic engineering PH.d, the one from Pacific University (the debatable one), and then there’s another one. But until I talk to him personally, I will not know where that one is from. I’ll get back with you when I know more.