IN RTL teen oratory winner: labor induced abortions
Hayley Miller of IN won the state’s Right to Life teen oratory contest in April this year, speaking on labor-induced abortions. Hayley’s mother, Kathy, emailed me:
Someone from our Parishioners for Life group heard your talk at St. Paul’s in Valparaiso, IN and purchased one of your CD’s. She then gave it to me to give to Hayley.
Hayley was so inspired by your story at Christ Hospital that she wrote her speech based on your testimony.
Here is the video of Hayley’s winning speech:
Congratulations, Hayley! You were poised and your delivery was professional (wow, the memorization!). Your speech was compelling, too. God speed as you compete on the national level!
Jun.04, 2009 10:13 am |
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Outlawing induced labor abortions for therapeutic rasons in hospitals just sends women to clinics like Dr.Tiller ran. This isn’t partial birth abortion for elective reasons we’re talking about. If you merely wanted to end those you would be more successful. The fact is there is a difference between what when on at Christ hospital and what often happens at late-term abortion clinics. The former merely involved inducing labor early to abort an unhealthy pregnancy. The latter often involves women who just denied their pregnancies and decide at the last minute to have a partial-birth abortion(totally different procedure).
so the Downs baby DESERVED to die because he was imperfect?
Do you know who Gianna Jessen is ? She is a young woman who survived an atempted saline abortion attempt.
if she had been at Christ Hospital, she probably wouldn’t be here now to witness to LIFE.
Try again, Kate. Abortion IS NEVER, I repeat, NEVER NECESSARY. Eugenics is alive in this country, with children with mild defects (correctable by surgery) are aborted just for not being “perfect”. Reminds me of Hitler and his search for the “master race”. His Nazis experimented on the disabled and elderly and exterminated the Jews just because they were JEWS.
Hayley did a good job and I wish her luck at the National Level.
What happened to Gianna Jessen was nothing like what happened at Christ hospital to begin with! Her mother was a 17 year old who didn’t want to have a child, so she had a SALINE abortion in the last trimester. It’s totally misleading to compare the two.
I also find it crazy you would compare Jews to downs fetuses.
Liz: Completely agree. Unfortnately Kate is not alone is being ignorant of the term eugenics.
Also, why do doctors automatically think mothers who are carrying a child whose life cannot be lived outside the womb wants to terminate their life? Everyone should have the dignity of their own death… Jill has linked, not too long ago, a website of those mothers who choose to *wait* until their child’s actual death, not cause it themselves. THe pain of losing their children is intense but at least they know they did not cause it. And, of course, what of those diagnosis by the *experts* that are wrong and their children are fine? How many times does that happen?
Our world is so selfish it’s frightening.
They’re both HUMAN beings. Does having a disability or a defect make you unworthy of being a human? I didn’t get that MEMO……
I know a couple who ADOPTED a baby who was going to be born with Downs. His birth mother choose life for him despite his “defect” and a couple got their wish to be parents.
Gianna and the Downs baby were both victims of abortion. The difference is Gianna was the lucky one — she was saved by the “doctor” not being there when she was BORN ALIVE.
Kate, we get it. You really dig eugenics.
eu?gen?ics??/yu?d??n?ks/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
–noun (used with a singular verb) the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).
This has nothing to do with individuals terminating a pregnancy with a poor pre-natal diagnosis.
Kate. Are you serious?
I don’t know how you can type something like that with a straight face.
Whoa… a poor prenatal diagnosis? Downs???
Reputable hospitals continue the pregnancy unless the continuation of the pregnancy threatens the life of either mother or child. For example, there are rare cases where the child is simply not growing properly in utero and they deliver so as to provide NICU care and attempt to address whatever is causing the poor growth. Cases such as pre-eclampsia can get to the point where it threatens the life of the mother, so the baby is delivered and provided NICU care if necessary.
In addition, induction of labor to deliver a baby who has already died is not an abortion and is performed at any hospital.
Unless the continuation of the pregnancy risks the life of one or both parties, there is no reason to induce early. THAT is the difference between Tiller/Carhart and a reputable hospital.
What Kate really means… “Killing people with disabilities has nothing to do with killing people with disabilities! Gosh guys, how could you get those things confused?”
I don’t know how you can even claim you know anything about eugenics. You can’t even understand a dictionary entry. Eugenics was a collective movement aimed at improving the human race through controlling the reproduction of others. Individuals deciding not to have a down syndrome fetus does not even remotely qualify. First of all down syndrome is not an inheritable condition like alcoholism. An example of eugenics would be sterilizing all alcoholics with the goal of eliminating them from the Earth. The goal of individuals who terminate a down’s pregnancy is not to improve the human race, but to merely not raise a child with the condition.
“aimed at controlling reproduction of others”…..hmmm, sounds familiar
Quotes from the Mouth of MARGARET SANGER:
“We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,” she said, “if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon
On the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:
“More children from the fit, less from the unfit — that is the chief aim of birth control.” Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12
“The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.” Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)
Those who abort babies like the Downs baby that Jill rocked until he died obvious consider the imperfect to be “unfit”.
I would terminate a down’s pregnancy, but I would never tell anyone else what to do.
Margaret Sanger was a proponent of Eugenics. Whenever you propose limiting the reproduction of those with inherinted traits(which can be anything from eye color and race to depression) with the goal of “improving” the gene pool of the human race you are advocating eugenics. I think Margaret Sanger was a racist and never said I support her.
Hayley,
You are amazing and I am so proud of you!! I hope and pray that your voice for the unborn is heard and that others will join us in the fight for life!!
God bless you! You go girl!! :)
DFTT
Don’t Feed The Troll
What is really sad is that ‘doctors’ are often wrong and a couple could end up aborting a healthy baby.
You have to wonder how many pregnancies diagnosed with fetal deformities were NOT accurate and the baby would have been fine.
Kate, the idea is to kill everyone with down syndrome. It’s a little more messy than forcing the sterilization on the undesireables, but the effect is the same. You stop a group of people from existing.
I understand eugenics perfectly well. You want to kill people because of thier genetics. You’re a bigot.
Kate- you aware then that M. Sanger is the mother of Planned Parenthood? So by using rational logic, that tells you what of the goal of Planned Parenthood, and the reason you find most of the PP clinics in low income, minority neighborhoods are for what?
Way to go Hayley! I can only hope and pray more teens are like you, therefore the next generation is coming out stronger and stronger being prolife. The anti-life people won’t have any children to be able to counter ours! They keep aborting them.
Kate, I pity you. You will never know the love I have from my beautiful sister-in-law, who is 17, who has DS. You will never know any of my precious patients… one little guy who was 8 months old with DS was in the treatment room (he had a different nurse that night) when I walked in to get supplies. He was fussing (hey, no one likes to get a new IV!) and I walked over and spoke to him softly and he recognized my voice… his eyes lit up and he reached for me. He is such a beautiful boy, but it is unlikely I’ll see him again now that his cardiac issues are resolved (as they are with routine surgery these days)… because he was a healthy, perfect baby boy with parents who will take wonderful care of him.
Honestly, DS is nothing… I work with syndromes that would knock your socks off if DS is a problem for you… and every child loved, wanted, well cared for (even those who will probably not live beyond their second or third birthdays).
You are deliberately isolating a segement of society that enriches and brings vast love to all those willing to look outside of their narrow prejudices and learn what unconditional love truly means.
I pity you. (BTW, you don’t have to murder your baby if it has DS. Plenty of people would love to raise it for you… rock it at night, spend the nights at the hospital while any medical issues are resolved, accept the love, watch the triumphs and glory in the joy.)
Lauren,
Your “definition” doesn’t even match that of the dictionary’s. That’s how much you know about eugenics. First of all, DS is not an inheritable condition like height or alcoholism. It’s a random defect. Most fetuses with it are miscarried.
Second, people who terminate DS pregnancy do not want to kill all DS people. They merely do not want to have one. No one is talking about passing laws to outlaw people from giving birth to DS babies. Even if they were(which I would be totally against)it would not be eugenics because DS is not an inheritable condition. Even if you aborted every down syndrome fetus for the next ten years it would not affect the rate at which they are conceived.
You can call me names to avoid the facts, it does not make your definition right. You are not only simplistic you are factually wrong. Eugenics involves a collective effort to prevent peole with “undesired” inherited traits from reproducing to “improve” the human race. An individual couple terminating a DS pregnancy doesn’t constitute this. Especially since DOWN SYNDROME IS NOT AN INHERITABLE CONDITION!
Speaking of DS (in a GOOD LIGHT) — I have to wonder how little Trig Palin is doing. He turned 1 in April.
Kate. You’re defending killing disabled babies. Just thought I’d point that out.
Aside from that DS can be inherited, though that is not the most common form. Regardless, it is an identifiable genetic mutation. Let’s try to do this really slowly for you, since you seem to be incapable of thought.
Eugenics is the systematic removal of people who share certain genetic traits.
People with Down Syndrome share certain genetic traits with each other. You want to kill them because they have an extra chromosome. You claim you don’t want to kill them all, which I guess makes you feel better about your own, personal bigotry.
It does nothing to change the fact that you, Kate, would kill someone because of their genetics.
Kate, you’re new eugenics is even more evil than historic eugenics. Historic eugenics operated by “discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects.”
Instead of discouraging reproduction, you just kill. Much more efficient.
Down Syndrome is an aneuploidy condition. It is not genetic! Tay Sach’s is a genetic condition. Besides in order for it to be eugenics it has to be collective movement that works to prevent people with heriditary traits from reproducing for the “improvement” of the human race. The point of someone who aborts a DS is not to prevent DS people from reproducing(they RARELY reproduce anyway).
I also think the fact you think aborting DS fetuses is worse than “historical eugenics” shows how blinded you are. The Jewish population was severely reduced because of eugenics. Millions of people were forcibly sterilized. Racism was promoted. Nothing of the sort has resulted from DS abortions.
I mean it is not inheretable genetic. It is a fluke with the chromosones. There is no DS gene a parent carries. JTC
Go Hayley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kate, you need help.
I’ll take that as a code for you have no intelligent response, but actually the extremists on this side need help. You’re the ones who think aborting DS fetuses is “more evil” than Hitler’s policies. Mainstream society is with me. 90% of women given the DS diagnosis agree with me. Do they all need help while you guys are the normal ones?
We think aborting **babies** prenatally diagnosed with any genetic defect is WRONG, but we are especially angered by the abortion of those diagnosed with DOWNS. 90% are ABORTED. 90%!
In addition to exterminating 6 Million Jews, Hitler experimented on the elderly and disabled, including those with Downs.
Both are equally revolting.
I knew a very brave woman once. She was faced with a life and death choice. The definite life of the child she carried or a chance at life for herself. When she was a barley a two months pregnant she found out she found out she had a type of small cell cancer. She knew that if she delayed treatment until after the baby was born, her chances of successful treatment were seriously limited. But she also knew that even with treatment their was no guarantee for a cure the only thing was sure of was the life she had growing inside her.
She delayed treatment until after the baby was born. Pat died less than a year later.
I wonder if Kate would have been trying to convince her to kill her baby and fight for herself.
Pat was the apitomy of the Billy Joel song “Only The Good Die Young.” She made the ultimate sacrifice for her child. What mother would not willingly give their life to save their child? But then, some people don’t think a baby is a baby.
Actually, they are not “more evil” than Hitler’s policies… they are in complete accordance with Hitler’s policies.
That’s what we’re trying to point out here… that murdering people due to them not being “genetically perfect” is heinous.
No one is genetically perfect! To call DS an imperfectiction is an understatement. My sister is deaf in one ear. She is graduating from law school in Dec.. She considers that an imperfection, yet it is hardly comparable DS.
Anyone who sees images from a concentration camp can see the difference between Hitler’s policies and a couple deciding not to have a DS fetus. Hitler was a threat to liberty and humanity. He used eugenics(which I totally disagree with BTW) to justify racism.
To Mark, this has nothing to do with the situation you mention.
So, your sister is more valuable than my sister in law? My sister in law has Down’s Syndrome. On what basis does she have less value as a human being than you or I or your sister or any other human being?
Kate, what if someone thought that everyone in this world should look like a supermodel? Would you make the grade?
Anyone who sees images from a concentration camp can see the difference between Hitler’s policies and a couple deciding not to have a DS fetus.
*************************************
Yeah, we have photos to prove that they were people and were exterminated because they happened to be born Jewish.
We don’t have photos of the 90% of DS babies who are aborted. And even if we did, PCers would just scream “fake!”
It’s not just “a” couple deciding not to have a DS baby. It is 90% of all couples given that diagnosis. Nearly all. You gave that statistic yourself, and it is accurate. Now you’ve contrasting ONE couple aborting their child to the extermination of Jews in a concentration camp, when the truth is, a life is a life is a life.
I really don’t get what the huge hangup is with Down’s Syndrome anyway. I truly don’t. I’ve worked with these children, and they’re amazing. 90% of women given the diagnosis have decided that because of a non-fatal fetal anomaly, they are going to terminate that life. If that isn’t discrimination against what one might term “unfit,” then what is?
Take it one step further. If you’re not 5’11 and 120 lbs., you are just worthless. Not many of us would make it. This is kind of what you seem to be saying. By comparison, is a 5’4, 200 pound woman’s life worth less than the great beauty???
I mean, this is just crazy talk!
Still waiting for Kate to explain how my sister in law is less valuable as a human being than someone without Down’s Syndrome.
On the plus side, there are 10 years worth of high school swim team members at her high school who will, if faced with it, have a reason to be in the 10% of women who choose life for a child with Down’s Syndrome… the four in her grade in high school, as well as the three years ahead of her (from when she was a freshman) and the three years behind her (from when she is a senior). Yes, she goes to high school. She’s on the swim team. She’s a real love and our lives would be immeasurably less rich without her in it.
Kate, who are you to judge who looks like they are worth having a life and who doesn’t??
Height, eye color, race, etc. are inheritable traits. DS is a a fluke! It is an all-ecompampassing defect that severely limits quality of life! It is totally rational for a couple to not want to go through that. For people to say it is comparable to raising a normal child is a lie. There will be no college graduation, wedding, or grand children. Get real.
Also, the inhumanity of a concentration camp compares to hardly anything, including a second trimester abortion.
My friend’s grandson was diagnosed with Lupus. Gee. They had a “perfect” kid 1 month ago, and now they’ve got a sick kid. He’s 14. What shaaalll we do?
Lupus is what a person has, not who they are.
I would not abort a DS child. He/she would be mine!
DS is what a person has, not who they are.
DANGER! Kate, this is how Hitler started out. Same ideas. Margaret Sanger too. “Exterminate the Negro population.”
Race is not a random defect! All races are beautiful!
Not according to Margaret Sanger. She’s the founder of PP.
I’m not Margaret Sanger. Racism sucks!
Then don’t support PP.
Down’s Syndrome is something that someone has, not who they are.
Kate, explain to me how my sister in law is less valuable as a person than you are.
(Oh, by the way, you are not guaranteed that your children will graduate from college, get married or give you grandchildren.)
I disagree. Unlike cancer, MS, or Diabetes, DS affects every aspect of who they are. I don’t see any DS doctors or lawyers or fathers. It is severely all-encompassing.
Elisabeth, that’s right!
Kate, you hurt my heart saying these things. I want to cry.
Having walked through the concentration camps of Dachau and Auschwitz… having sat in Anne Frank’s attic… having known survivors of concentration camps and listened to their stories….
I can assure to you that it is the mindset that allows any group of people to be marginalized and deemed “sub-human”… less valuable… less worthy of protection, that allows the evil of concentration camps to occur. This mindset is what we are trying to point out to you. It is this mindset that is dangerous.
And for many throughout Europe, the evils of the concentration camps were hidden away from view, allowing them to mentally dissociate from the evil going on there. Just as you are dissociating yourself from the murder of innocent life. Making it more “sterile” doesn’t make it right. Would the Nazis have been “okay” in your viewpoint if they had simply injected all Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, political opponents, and mentally and physically handicapped with a poisonous solution that killed them instantly? (Say, digoxin to the heart as Tiller used?)
I am perfectly aware I am not GAURANTEED I will have drandchdildren or see my kids graduate from Yale or wherever, but it is more likely than not with a normal child, whether they are deaf or have asthma or not! With DS I know they wont!
So, only if you are capable of becoming a doctor or a lawyer are you acceptable? It’s not okay to be the best bagger in town at the local grocery store? It’s not okay to exist if the extent of your abilities is a low-income job?
Once again, why is my sister in law less valuable as a human being than you are?
There is an unconditional love given by a DS child from what I have heard. I don’t know any families with DS children right now, but my God show some compassion.
No, the Nazi’s would not have been right to inject Jews with a lethal substance! There are so many wonderful Jews(including my plastic surgeon) I can’t even imagine the question. Besides, being Jewish is not a defect!
So if your children don’t graduate from college, get married and give you grandchildren are they somehow less valuable as people? What if they have low paying, menial jobs? Would you wish that you had killed them in utero, regardless of how much love they may bring into your life?
So, it would have been okay with you if they had just lined up all the people with mental and physical handicaps and injected their hearts with digoxin?
Kate, I’m married to an Orthodox Jew. He’s very PL. He calls abortion what it6 is. MURDER!
I’d like an answer to this Kate: why is my sister in law with Down’s Syndrome less valuable as a human being than you are?
Elisabeth, I’d like to know also. I’ll be back. Gotta run to the store.
No I would not advocate killing my kids if they did not graduate from college, but I would encourage them to follow their passion and achieve their goals. I would also hope they experience the great joy of having a family(I really want grandchildren!). DS people do not get to experience the same life experiences as the rest of us. It is not fair to compare it to diabetes or cancer!
Really? My sister in law has gone to school the same as her age-mates. She goes to summer camp. She enjoys movies and video games.
Is it life experiences that determines worth? So, my life is more valuable than somebody else’s because I got to go to Europe a few times? Oh, wait, my sister in law has done that, too.
So please tell me, why is my sister in law less valuable as a human being than you are?
Kate- your absolute utter racist, eugenic minded ignorance is baffling. I dare you to contact Barbara Curtis (http://mommylife.net/) and spew your idiotic breakdown of how worthless four of her beautiful children are.
I knew a woman that had a late term abortion because her doc said her baby had Down’s. Her boyfriend forced her to get the abortion because he refused to have a “disgusting, disabled freak” (his words she conveyed to us). Because she had an “induced labor abortion” (she was 8 months along), she gave birth to a dead PERFECTLY NORMAL baby. No Down’s. The doc was wrong. The woman- emotionally, mentally and spiritually destroyed.
You are no better than Margret Sanger with your condescending, holier than thou attitude towards disabled persons.
Whoever said I was a racist is a total idiot. DS has nothing to do with race, and I love all races! Also, an amnio is 99.8% accurate. They probably had the triple screen. This is different! Magaret Sanger was a racist and eugenics proponent, as I’ve said I’m neither! I’m totally laughing at the accusation.
Does anyone remember the show “Life Goes On”? The son in the family was a young man with Downs.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0121630/
His name is Chris Burke.
Kate, why is your life more valuable than my sister in law’s life?
Ah, yes, anonymous, because *in context* they make so much more sense. It’s okay to be racist and support Hitler and eugenics as long as it is “in context”.
Why are you afraid to put your name on what you write? Anonymous posts get deleted around here.
Why don’t you enlighten us as to what she actually meant? This I’d love to hear.
Anonymous… use a name or I guarantee it WILL be deleted eventually.
And I’ve read extensively about Margaret Sanger and her work. She is a racist. She is a eugenicist and she thought Hitler was a great visionary.
So, tell me what YOU think she meant. And use a NAME.
Are you familiar with your name?
Once again, what do YOU think she was trying to say?
Kate, once again. Why is your life more valuable than my sister in law’s life?
Anonymous comments are deleted.
LOL, Carla, while I understand (and appreciate) the need, it does tend to make it look like I’m arguing with myself!
Posted by: Kate at June 4, 2009 8:12 PM
“Besides, being Jewish is not a defect!”
—————————————————
Kate,
There are some Jew hating bigots out there who would disagree with you and nothing would make them happier than to anihilate every son of Abraham on the planet.
And when that chore was done they would turn their attention to anyone who was not them.
yor bro ken
Elisabeth,
:)
Sorry about that. The mods are trying to clean up the threads a bit. If you argue with yourself at least you know you will win!!
“No I would not advocate killing my kids if they did not graduate from college, but I would encourage them to follow their passion and achieve their goals. I would also hope they experience the great joy of having a family(I really want grandchildren!). DS people do not get to experience the same life experiences as the rest of us. It is not fair to compare it to diabetes or cancer!”
Posted by: Kate at June 4, 2009 8:26 PM
O.K. here goes….
“follow their passion”
DS kids are some of the most passionate around.
“achieve their goals”
DS kids will not only achieve their goals, they will AMAZE you with what they can do.
“I would also hope they experience the great joy of having a family{
Aren’t DS kids the most joyfilled around? Always smiling. They will be a joy, even if you are not. Some get married and have children of their own.
“DS people do not get to experience the same life experiences as the rest of us.”
You need to open your eyes and your mind, dear. Your life experiences are not necessarily the best out there.
The fact that you have a plastic surgeon is quite telling. People do more damage to their looks through surgery….I don’t get it. Lighten up on your expectations of yourself and others. Live and let live.
Liz, I loved Chris Burke!! Excellent actor!!!
Kate, who thinks it’s ok to kill people she believes are inferior to her says
“You say “Down Syndrome is an aneuploidy condition. It is not genetic! Tay Sach’s is a genetic condition. Besides in order for it to be eugenics it has to be collective movement that works to prevent people with heriditary traits from reproducing for the “improvement” of the human race. The point of someone who aborts a DS is not to prevent DS people from reproducing(they RARELY reproduce anyway).
I also think the fact you think aborting DS fetuses is worse than “historical eugenics” shows how blinded you are. The Jewish population was severely reduced because of eugenics. Millions of people were forcibly sterilized. Racism was promoted. Nothing of the sort has resulted from DS abortions.
”
First of all, do a little research dear. Down Syndorme can most certainly be inherited. http://www.about-down-syndrome.com/types-of-down-syndrome.html I can’t belive you have to have this spelled out for you. “Translocation occurs in approximately 3-4% of babies born with Down Syndrome. In this type of Down Syndrome a part of chromosome number 21 breaks off and attaches itself to another chromosome. Often this is chromosome number 14. This causes all cells in the body to have the extra piece of the 21st chromosome. When a child is born with this type of Down Syndrome it could mean that one of the parents is carrying chromosomal material that is unusually arranged.”
God that, Euthenasia Kate? A PARENT is carrying chromosomal material that is unsually arranged. Hmm…
Also, what do you think the point of keeping people from reproducing is, Kate? It’s to keep their numbers from growing so that they will eventually die off. Aborting a child with down syndrome just skips the middle man. You go straight to the “die off” part without having to mess with waiting for an entire generation to die off. THAT is what makes this new eugenic movement even more evil than past movements.
You come on here with the most bigoted view in the world about people with Down Syndrome and then make sad puppy dog eyes about racism. It’s amazing that you can’t see that you are just as much a bigot as someone who believes that those with extra pigment are “not like us.”
Here’s a tip, Kate. When you start arguing that people “aren’t like us” and thus, it should be allowable to kill them, you’re a bigot. There’s no two ways about it.
“Is Down Syndrome inherited?
The vast majority of cases of Down Syndrome are not inherited. Only in cases of Translocation Down Syndrome and then in only 1 of 3 cases of this type of Down Syndrome is the condition inherited. These inherited cases occur because one of the parents is a carrier. A carrier will have 45 chromosomes instead of 46 but they will have all the genetic material of a person with 46 chromosomes. Remember that in Translocation Down Syndrome the extra chromosome 21 material is located on a different chromosome.”
Claiming that DS is an inherited defect is pulling at straws Lauren. The vast majority of cases are not! Most aborted DS pregnancies were not inherited. Besides, there is no movement to prevent the very few people who who have the gene responsible for a very few % of DS cases. Therefor aborting all DS babies will not reduce the incidence of DS conceptions. The Jewish population was severely reduced by Hitler, and those numbers will not come back because being Jewish is not a random defect! It is an inherited trait, and it was labeled “undesirable” by a few and targeted for extinction. This is not the case with DS. DS will never be eliminated. Calling me a bigot doesn’t change that.
Also, I find it funny that people have such a rose colored view of DS they will say that they can go on to have careers and families like the rest of us. I know some families with a DS kid who would disagree.
It is not rose colored glasses, Kate. It is unconditional love for those that aren’t “perfect.”
I went into Special Education BECAUSE of a little boy I met with Down Syndrome. He stole my heart.
I have worked with so many that you would absolutely have told their parents to abort.
“Monstrosities” I read someone called them on a different thread. I always wanted to have my own child with Down Syndrome and would adopt one in a minute if we could financially swing it.
I really do feel sorry for you.
Kate, I know the statistics on translocated DS. I was just pointing out that you aren’t even factually acurate with your biogtry.
You seem to be missing the point (intentionally?) that eugenics stops a certain group from inhabiting the earth. One way is to stop the genetic line via sterilization. Another is to just kill anyone who has the trait you believe is undesireable.
Guess where you fall?
You say DS will never be eliminated. You’re right, we’ll just elminiate all the people who have it. We’re at 90% already.
Also, guess what? I don’t care if a person can never speak, sit up, read, mow the lawn, or have children. I don’t care. A person is a person, no matter what they can “do.”
You’re a bigot because you measure a person’s human dignity by some utilitarian function they perform. You kill those who fall below your line.
I don’t advocate killing anyone. I don’t want to see all DS fetuses aborted. I do not care what anyone else does. People on here really have trouble grasping the concept of individual choice. I would terminate, but I wouldn’t pressure anyone else to do anything.
Lauren,
You still do not understand the definition of eugenics. Again, it is a collective movement aimed at preventing those with “undesirable” inheritable traits from reproducing with the goal of improving the human population. The vast majority of DS cases are not inhereted, and there is no movement to prevent those with DS from reproducing.
Kate. Dear God.
You are really missing the forest for the trees, dear.
Controlling reproduction is the means to the end of eliminating a population.
Killing babies with DS skips the means and goes right to the end.
It is really not a difficult concept.
Kate, try inserting “Jew” for “Person with DS.”
“I wound’t pressure anyone else to kill Jews, but I personally would because I believe their inferior.”
Hmm…
The means, motive, and end to aborting a DS fetus disqualifies it from being considered eugenics! The point is not to improve the human gene pool(DS is almost never inherited), the means do include controlling someone else’s reproduction, and the end is not eliminating or reducing inheritable traits(such as race or disease) in the population.
The fact that you think Jew is interchangable with DS fetus shows how little you understand. Being Jewish is not a random defect! Besides, no one is talking about killing DS people. I don’t advocate euthanasia! I would terminate my own pregnancy.
You’re contridicting yourself, Kate. You just said eugenics has “the goal of improving the human population.”
You’ve stated many times that those with DS are undesireables. You seem to have an extraordinary amount of cognitive dissonance that prevents you from seeing that killing a group of people who have X disease stims from the same mentality of sterilizing a group of people who have Y disease.
You then make the startleing statment “No one is talking about killing DS people.” I nearly spit out my juice. Are you kidding me, Kate? You have said again, and again, and again that you would KILL your own child if he happened to have DS.
Oh, that’s right, you only think it’s ok to kill people inside the womb. Tell me, Kate, why is it ok to kill your preborn child with DS, but not a born child with DS? What if you were the only person who could raise that child? Would you just strangle him?
And one more thing, Kate. The disdain you have for those with DS is the exact same sentiment antisemetics have for Jews. I know that fact makes you uncomfortable, but it’s the truth.
Sure, we all know that Jews have human dignity and an inherent right to live, but other’s disagree.
That’s the point. You’re defense of killing people with DS puts you in the same camp as those who defend killing anyone they see as unfit. Their definition of “unfit” differs from yours, but the end result is the same. Death.
I never called DS people undesirables. I really don’t care what other pregnant women decide. I would terminate because I don’t want to go through a pregnancy and childbirth only to have a DS child. This has nothing to do with imrpoving the human population. DS is usually not inhereted, so it wouldn’t affect the gene pool in anyway.
Also, the reason I would terminate a DS pregnancy but not kill a DS child is because I would simply put it up for adoption. If I had already gone through childbirth and pregnancy the need to terminate anything is gone.
People may think Jews are defective, but they are factually wrong. DS is a random defect. That is a fact.
Kate,
“DS is a random defect. That is a fact. ”
In order to say that something is a defect, you must have a standard of perfection by which to compare it. What is your standard of perfection and how do you know that that is objectively the standard of perfection?
Go to any medical website(they almost all site DS as a defect) and ask them.
Kate, you’re going to go through childbirth either way. Hate to break it to you, but delivering a baby at 20+ weeks isn’t exactly having a wart removed. Nor is it safer than childbirth.
So…try again. Why would you kill a child with DS in the womb, but not upon birth. Since you could put the chid up for adoption either way in reality, let’s make things more interesting and suppose that you could not put your child up for adoption upon birth. You’re stuck with what you get.
Would you then kill the child? Come on, it’s defective!
Kate. Answer Bobby’s question. Don’t deflect.
Also Kate says “I would terminate because I don’t want to go through a pregnancy and childbirth only to have a DS child.”
How about “I would terminate because I don’t want to go through a pregnancy and childbirth only to have black child.”
or
“I would terminate because I don’t want to go through a pregnancy and childbirth only to have a female child.”
or
“I would terminate because I don’t want to go through a pregnancy and childbirth only to have a short child.”
The last one is especially poignant to me, the mother of a child with “defect” of pituitary dwarfism, among other things.
Now you are just trying to egg me on with foolish talk. Being black or short are not defects! Why is the concept of birth defects so hard for you people to comprehend? I find the comparison of a being black to a severe random defect flat out racist. Besides a child will be the race of his/her parents because it is an inheretable trait!
Kate. Stop with the crocodial tears. You know full and well the connection we’re making between your bigotry and the bigotry of the KKK. The point is the you all agree that peope with X trait aren’t deserving of life.
As for being short not being a birth defect, you’re obviously very ignorant.
As I said before, my son has pitutiary dwarfism. He will have to get at least 1 shot a day for the rest of his life in order to maintain mucsle mass and proper growth. He also had a hypospadias, two inguinal hernias, an umbilical hernia, and an irregular heartbeat.
When I was pregnant with him they suspected both spinal bifida and Down Syndrome and I was encouraged to abort by people like you. When I didn’t I was berated by people like you.
People who believe that those with defects should be killed are bigots. You are a bigot
Oh and BTw, the nazi’s didn’t start with the Jews. They started with the disabled.
The fact that you have resorted to calling me names shows how feeble your argument is. You can’t respond to my actual statements, so you put words in my mouth. I have stated I would not tell anyone else what to do, yet you keep stating I want to kill all DS people.
As for being short, it is not a birth defect. There are bd that cause severe shortness. It is not the same thing.
Before you spew out hateful names at others, look at yourself. Some conservatives would probably label you a slut for getting knocked up in college.
“I don’t advocate killing anyone. I don’t want to see all DS fetuses aborted. I do not care what anyone else does. People on here really have trouble grasping the concept of individual choice. I would terminate, but I wouldn’t pressure anyone else to do anything.”
You’re a hypocrite right here in your own paragraph. You don’t advocate the killing of anyone yet you admitted that you’d kill your own child if you found out the baby had DS. I don’t have trouble grasping the concept of choice. What I have trouble grasping is the concept of your hypocrisy. It’s truly troubling. What if your daughter (if you have one) finds out a pregnancy of hers is with a DS child and she wants to keep it? Sounds like you’d try your darndest to force her to abort while totally ignoring her personal choice to have the baby. Would you treat that child differently.. ignore it?
You have also evaded Elizabeth’s question for almost two days now, however it’s safe to deduce your answer. You’re condescension is palpable.
Kate, you are a bigot because you keep saying that it is perfectly fine to kill people based on their genetics. I’m not randomly insulting you. I’m calling attention to your bigotry. I have been completely charitable with you for weeks. I’m sick of pussyfooting around someone who thinks its perfectly fine to kill someone because of their genetics. From now on I’ll be calling an apple an apple.
Now you continue to fail to respond to the questions and have begun randomly calling me a slut (in a backhanded way that you think is clever) instead actually arguing the points.
My sexual activities have nothing to do with protecting the rights of the disabled. Your wish to kill anyone you think unworthy most certainly does.
So, in bullet point form:
*Why is it ok to kill a preborn child with DS, but not a born child? Adoption would remedy either situation, so examine the issue leaving the concept of adoption out of the equation.
*What makes YOU different from a person who would kill their child for being short, black, asian, or deaf? (Note: I did not say what makes these children different from each other. I asked what makes YOU different from the other bigots)
*What is your standard of perfection and how do you know that that is objectively the standard of perfection
Kate, you are misunderstanding us. Sometimes we Christians are the worst of the worst! I can speak for myself. I was tired of living in sin. It was draining me. The term “slut” applied to me at one time. I asked God to remove me from sin. Open my eyes. This wasn’t an overnight deal. It’s a process.
.It is unnecessary
.What makes me different is that I see all races are equal. Being Asian is not a defect. That is a fact. It is also a fact that DS is a defect. A person who thinks someone is inferior because of their race does not have science on their side. Nature is on my side. 80% of DS fetuses miscarry naturally.
.I don’t have a standard of perfection. No one is perfect. DS isn’t an imperfection. It is a random defect
I’ve stated this over and over, and yet you can’t grasp the facts, or even a dictionary definition.
No, it is necessary. Very necessary. Answer the question.
Again, I didn’t ask what was different between the children, I asked what was different between YOU and the other bigots. All you seem to be able to muster is that the children in question are different and yours obviously don’t deserve to live. That’s not answering the question.
So, you’re saying that if someone has a medical defect they can be killed.Gotcha. Again, this is where the NAZI’s started as well You’re in “good” company.
Try again to actually answer the questions that were asked.
I will repeat it again. Margaret Sanger, founder of PP… “Exterminate the Negro population.” Just as you view a DS baby unworthy of life, Sanger felt that blacks are unworthy of it also. “The Negro population must be plucked like weeds.”
Lauren,
You have troble underastanding FACTS! I said the difference between me and racists is that facts are on my side! They have the inaccurate belief that some races are defective and inferior. This is scientifically inaccurate! For the last time, race is not a random defect!
All you can respond is by camparing me to NAZIS! I’ve stated the clear differences! Nazi’s were racists and eugenics proponents! The dictionary alone proves why your wrong! Comparing someone to a Nazi online is the first sign of a desperate person trying to avoid the facts! I believe Newman’s law is what describes the phenom.
I answered your first question. It is UNNECESSARY to kill anyone outside my uterus.
Also, I have no obligation to answer to you in anyway. I don’t respect you or your choices. I will still terminate a DS pregnancy.
Kate, wow.
For the last time. I didn’t ask you about the difference between the children. I asked you about the difference between you and other bigots. You don’t seem able to answer that question.
You just say “well, the kids I want to kill ARE inferior, gosh!”
Also, why is it unnecessary to kill anyone outside of the uterus? If you can’t give your child up for adoption you have to endure the horror of raising a child with DS. You were willing to kill to escape this horror a few weeks earlier, why stop at birth?
I couldn’t care less if you respect me. I just want you to think logically and form a coherent argument. Thus far you have been completely unable to do so.
You’re the one who began this argument. I’m calling upon you to have a shred of integrity and see it through.
Oh, and stop using bullsh*t euphemisms. You would kill your child with DS. You would allow a doctor to give it a lethal injection or rip it apart limb by limb.
Birth also terminates a pregnancy, but it’s not what you mean.
The difference is in our beliefs. I know that race is not a defect. I’ve stated that over and over. Saying that is not a difference is like stating there is no difference between a hunter and serial killer because of who they shoot. You can’t read cohrerntly if you can’t understand what I’ve said. You can’t even understand a dictionary definition.
As I’ve said I personally would terminate a DS pregnancy. DS is a random defect, unlike inherited traits like race or height. I would never tell anyone else what to do. In response you called me a Nazi, racist, and eugenics proponent, yet I’ve explained why I am none of these. I even used a dictionary to help you undestand, yet you can’t see passed your extremist ideology.
My extremist ideology? Are you kidding me?
I believe that no child should be killed because of their genetics.
You’re the one who not only supports the rights of people to kill their disabled children, but would actively kill your own.
You don’t seem to be able to grasp that eugenics has components outside of sterilization. Quick question, Kate. Did Hitler just sterilize the Jews and wait a generation? No? Hm…
Look, I know that you do not consider yourself to be a bad person. I’m trying to show you that the logic that allows children with DS to be killed is the same logic that has excused countless atrocities.
I have been very generous with you in the past, but honestly I think that you need to be directly confronted on your ideology. Human beings have dignity and worth. No defect can change that.
Kate- I’m so sorry you consider DS a defect. It might be a defect in the genes that physiologically make up the person, but it in no way makes them a defect of their their worth in God’s eyes. And a person that truly believes ALL people are made in the image and likeness of God would naturally be disgusted with your logic (rather, lack thereof). I know I am. You are not God and your belief that you have a “right” to play God in choosing who lives and who dies is just plain demonic.
So would you ever allow your daughter (or son) to have a DS baby if they and their spouse chose to keep the child? Or would you demand they kill it because the force of which you deem DS people inferior leads me to believe you don’t give a darn of another’s choice like you state you do. You don’t want a defective person in your family so you’d follow M. Sanger’s advice of “The merciful thing for a family to do to its infant member is kill it.” You’re no better than she was and that’s what I find more heartbreaking than disgusting.
Kate, why is your life more valuable than the life of my sister in law who has Down’s Syndrome?
Also, you have never addressed the question above that if the Nazi’s had limited themselves to shooting the disabled in the heart with digoxin you would have been okay with it…. which tells me, yes, as long as they had been “euthanized humanely” you would have no problem with murdering the disabled.
Hey, KATE…You know…I happen to have an asthestic facial birth defect myself. My face didn’t fuse together properly when I was in utero, and I don’t have a complete cartilage bridge on my nose. I believe it’s called frontonasal dysplasia, but it’s never really been a large concern for me because my case happens to be rather mild. I had a CAT scan at age 7 to make sure it was only superficial. I sometimes get stares in public and occasionally someone will begin conversing with me slowly because they assume my nose somehow affects my brain function. I can tell when they notice it because there’s always a quick look of panic in their eyes before they have to start speaking with me. Are you telling me that if you had been my mother, and the ultrasound would’ve shown me from the right angle, you would’ve had me killed? Would I not be up to your high standards? I might not be some awe-inspiring beauty worthy, but my cognitive capacity is at the very least above average, and I’m glad to be alive.
*awe-inspring beauty worthy of acclaim
And sorry about the tangent I got off on there for a little while…It’s just that, when I was very young, my parents were having all the consulting sessions with doctors of all kinds telling them how they wanted to “fix” me, just because my nose was a little different, I got off the phone with my mother, and she said that some doctors went as far as to say that they would possibly have wanted to remove portions of my brain for cosmetic surgery!! I’m very glad they didn’t agree to it, but Kate mentioning that about her plastic surgeon makes me think she might’ve been otherwise inclined.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 4, 2009 11:50 AM
Save the hitler for the actual genocides. A woman making a decision about her own body is not genocide. It is a medical procedure undertaken by one person (and no the fetus does not count as a “person”). A genocide is a forced murder of thousands of people based on a defined characteristic, usually race or religion inflicted by one group upon another. Hitler killed himself decades ago, you can put that little rhetorical trick to bed and join the rest of us in the present reality anytime you want.
If you’re looking for a lower level bad guy to suit your need for a name – how about Pinochet? or Mussolini…get creative.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, YLT.