At what age, if any, do you think abortion clinics should breach a minor girl’s “right to privacy” and alert authorities that her pregnancy, request for contraception, or STD testing is evidence a sexual crime may have been committed against her?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Any age under the age of 18.
I agree with heather.
I think this ‘problem’ came up before. Some workers seem hampered by the law …. for a minor: … according to Amanda. She has on numerous occasions run into this very scenario and feels that there is nothing she can do because the law stipulates that the minor is the one in-charge … or she MUST (no matter what age) give her approval to any release of information. It is not only PP that are thus restricted, but any medical/counseling facility.
This does appear to be a place for perpetrators to hide because an employee CANNOT report suspicions … but reports only with approval.
so a breach of a minor’s privacy is a law/legislator/supreme court thingie before it ever reaches the level of a clinic.
John, Amanda is wrong, which is scary considering she works for the abortion industry. What other lies is she being fed or spouting?
Medical professionals are mandated reporters of suspected minor sexual abuse in all 50 states. Only the age varies.
Mandated reporters are not called to investigate. That is up to the agency to whom they report.
Mandated reporters are only called to report suspected abuse. And underage pregnancy, or requests for contraception, or requests for STD testing are all evidence that a sexual crime may have been committed.
18 years old. Yes. now back to finishing cutting the grass…. beautiful day here in Mass…
I can’t stop thinking about little Eliot, whether I’m working on my car, or around the house, etc..
Interesting question Jill. I will try and answer this to the best of my ability.
I *personally* believe it should be the age of sexual consent in the state that the minor lives in. B/c of s/he is at the age of consent it is not statutory rape, it is consenual sex (although those states that have the age @ 14 shoue *raise* the age to atleast 16 in my opinion). If the minor in question was raped against her will (@ any age, the authorites in Alabama are automatically called) then yes, they should breach the doctor patient confidentiality clause. Now, in my state (Ala) a child gets the doctor patient confiditiality provision @ 12. (I remember having to fill out documents saying my pediatrician could talk to my mother about my sickness, medical problems etc.)
In the case of prescribing birth control if the child is of the age of consent I believe the clinic/doctor in question should prescribe it to the patient. She is trying to her best ability to not get pregnant and taking the appropriete steps to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. If birth control is prescribed for a legitimate medical reason, I think it should be given at any age. (I was put on birth control @ 14 to help with my ovarian cysts. I hold the record at Brookewood hospital for the youngest patient to come in with one (12) and right before my 14th b’day I had one burst). My mother was fully aware that I was on it (b/c she is allowed access to my medical records, even now and I am 23), & knew it was for a medical reason, not b/c I was having sex.
Personally, I think 14, unless proof exists that the condition was a result of stranger or date rape.
Jasper, nice day in Chicago, too. Sunny, high 60s.
Midnite: you as a medical professional would not find it questionable if an 11-year-old requested contraceptives?
Less, the “proof” is the pregnancy. It’s not up to the medical professional to read minds or investigate, only report.
Jill, as pregnancies and STDs may also be the result of completely consensual sex, they should not be reported.
What a wonderful world we live in…. A teacher at school can’t give a child ANY medication unless a parent gives them consent, but a child can have b/c pills..injections..patches and also abortions without the parents knowledge! Can someone help me understand this? What am I missing? This must make sense to most people but thankfully I am not one of the enlightened.
Cindy, count me in as one of the unenlightened ones! I never have been able to figure that one out either.
The way I look at it is that it’s far more life changing to have an unwanted child than it is a headache.
And isn’t that all the more reason for a parent to be involved in such a decision?
Not all children can trust their parents; you seem to forget this. I feel as though if a girl is comfortable enough with her parents to tell them the truth, they deserve to be involved and likely will be. If that bond of trust doesn’t exist, well, perhaps its better if they stay out of the matter.
Not all children can trust their parents; you seem to forget this. I feel as though if a girl is comfortable enough with her parents to tell them the truth, they deserve to be involved and likely will be. If that bond of trust doesn’t exist, well, perhaps its better if they stay out of the matter.
You are obviously very young, Less…most likely, still in your teens. When you are a parent, I think you will find that you feel very differently.
Your feelings on whether parents are “trustworthy enough” has no bearing on whether they have the RIGHT to know what their child is doing with their body! I don’t care if the relationship with their child is not absolutely perfect in every way….parents deserve to know if their child is being given condoms, birth control pills, or if they are having invasive surgery to remove an unwanted baby from their body.
AND parents who are abusing their children, such as in the post Valerie made, should be reported when Planned Parenthood is made aware of them!
What ever happened to parental consent?
Bethany, I’m in my twenties. Should I become a parent (by adoption, as I have no desire to ever be pregnant), I will ensure that my child feels comfortable enough to speak to me about his or her reproductive health: if my child is female, she will be put on birth control if she wants it and will be comprehensivly educated regarding sex. If my child is male, he will also be properly educated and will be given condoms. I will also likely do as many Europeans do and open my house to their lovers, allowing them to stay over. I see nothing wrong with sex, and my children will be encouraged to make their own choices regarding when/if they have it. I would like to be involved in their lives, but if I am not, I will have given them the tools to make educated choices.
Parents do not deserve any more right over their children’s bodies than anyone else. They do not own their children. If a parent has fostered an open relationship with their child, than as I said, they will already know what is going on. If they do not have that sort of relationship, than there is likely a reason for it.
My parents never have had any control over my reproductive choices: this is in part due to the fact that I am not comfortable discussing anything with them due to our differing outlooks upon sexuality, and in part due to the fact that this is my life and my body, and I will make my own choices regarding it.
If parents don’t have any rights over their children’s bodies, then why isn’t the 12 year old allowed to fill out her own paper work for a root canal? Why can’t an 8yo. consent to her own appendectomy? Since when?
Frankly, I see no reason why a 12 year old shouldn’t be able to fill out her own paperwork for a root canal.
You have a lot of learning to do, I suppose.
Why, because I refuse to allow others to have control of my body, and won’t teach my children that sex is something dirty and taboo?
no, because you act as though parents shouldn’t be concerned with the well being and safety of their children, and shouldn’t have the right to protect them from harm.
…or “potential” harm, as I’m sure your response will be about the supposed safety of abortions.
Of course parents should be concerned with their children, and they do have the right to protect them from harm, but not when it involves the child giving up her right to her own reproductive health.
Of course parents should be concerned with their children, and they do have the right to protect them from harm, but not when it involves the child giving up her right to her own reproductive health.
Oh come on. You just stated that you don’t see why a 12 year old shouldn’t be able to fill out her own forms to get a root canal done. As far as I know, that has nothing to do with reproductive health.
Sure, Bethany, but I’m not going to virulently defend that 12 year olds should be able to sign their own paperwork, as root canals generally don’t result in nine months of something growing inside you.
“If parents don’t have any rights over their children’s bodies, then why isn’t the 12 year old allowed to fill out her own paper work for a root canal? Why can’t an 8yo. consent to her own appendectomy? Since when?”
Note the ages that were used here. 12 and 8. But we must recognize that there is a big difference between 8 and 15 and between 12 and 18. Sure, we have to impose arbitrary age limits on when individuals can drive, or make medical decisions, etc. Why? Because we recognize that children of certain ages do not have the cognitive capacities or experience to make educated judgments about various things, and the law can’t be taken on a case by case basis. So we impose arbitrary age limits. But it would be silly to think that, say, a 15 year old is incapable of making decisions about her body the day before her birthday and becomes magically capable of doing so the day of her birthday. And the fact of the matter is that by the time individuals are in their mid teens, they’ve started to formulate their own world view, they’ve started to make decisions about their lives on their own. And it seems unfair to me to say to a 15 year old girl “You can’t make a decision about birth control, or an abortion. You must go unprotected, or you must carry that pregnancy to term because your parents have a different worldview than you do”
If you believe that is completely fair then why not this – a 15 year old girl is admitted to the hospital with traumatic injuries. She needs a blood transfusion. Her parents are Jehovah’s witnesses, and, as such, blood transfusions violate their religious beliefs. The girl, however, no longer believes the same way that her parents do, and she wants the blood transfusion. Do we tell her no? Why not? And please don’t appeal to the law (which, if I’m not mistaken, is actually on the side of the girl in this matter), I want a philosophical answer that is consistent with the idea that that same 15 year old can’t get BC or an abortion because her parents won’t allow it.
Hi Diana,
as you know – almost all legal prescriptions are not stand-alone forces … that say “Do this my way PERIOD!” but laws do have a very sophisticated philosophical base.
Since you are the philosophical-expert here … please help by informing us of this legal-reasoning, that I’m sure has made it to the US-supreme Court many times. [I really hate arguing to a vacuum that I know does not exist.]
If there’s going to be parental consent laws, they should work both ways.
If my underage daughter is required to get my permission before getting an abortion, then she should also be required to get my permission before keeping her pregnancy and having a baby.
“If my underage daughter is required to get my permission before getting an abortion, then she should also be required to get my permission before keeping her pregnancy and having a baby.”
Yes SoMG, I agree. will you agree to this one too?”:
“If my underage daughter is required to get my permission before smoking cigaretts, then she should also be required to get my permission to stop smoking cigaretts.”
Off topic a little Jill, but:
Here’s what those lovely tolerant feminist (the anti-catholic bloggers who use to work for John Edwards) had to say about the Pope’s warning of excummunication to catholic Politicians who voting for Abortion:
“Pope clarifies that treating women like dogshit is non optional”
http://pandagon.net/2007/05/11/pope-clarifies-that-treating-women-like-dogshit-is-non-optional/
and
http://www.shakesville.com/2007/05/actual_headline_2.php
Here’s a couple quotes about the Pope:
“Why THE FUCK can
And here’s what pro-lifers say about those who are pro-choice:
“Pro choice women, no matter what God they worship, are disturbed and scary individuals. Anyone who believes in their right to physical autonomy enough to kill for it is dangerous and deranged…”
From your very own MK. Insults are insults, jasper, condemn them one and you really ought to condemn them all.
Also, jasper, you forgot to quote the part of the first article that pointed out that, while the guy who shot Pope John Paul was not excommunicated, pro-choice politicians are. Funny, supporting reproductive rights is apparently far worse than shooting the man the Catholics believe to be God’s emmisary on earth….pardon me for not quite understanding.
Jasper, that’s cute but no I wouldn’t agree to your idea because quitting smoking is good for you, whereas having a baby if you’re underage is bad for you.
“Also, jasper, you forgot to quote the part of the first article that pointed out that, while the guy who shot Pope John Paul was not excommunicated”
this guy was a muslim man and was not part of the Catholic church,… Not a catholic politician who has the power to stop grave evil from happening.
“whereas having a baby if you’re underage is bad for you”
could you explain how is it bad for your health.
The following links explain all the health problems that teen mothers face:
Teen pregnancy is the leading cause of death of teens in developing countries
Health problems related to teen pregnancies
A review of maternal health and prenatal care for teen mothers
The link from teen pregnancies to other critical social issues
Over and above the health issues, teen pregnancy severely impacts the mother’s educational opportunities, employment opportunities, and societial posisions. Would you really wish that upon anyone?
Also, jasper, you didn’t address the issue of insults. Anything to say?
Haven’t seen everyone in a while…busy time of the year!
This question creates a really difficult situation for medical professionals. Regardless of the age, the markers for sexual abuse are not always cut and dried. If a girl goes to a local clinic for birth control and appears nervous or afraid, it could mean a lot of things. One might be that she is or was being sexually abused and is doing so out of fear. Another might be the girl is afraid of her parents reaction to her either attaining the pill or having sex in the first place. Others might have just had a pregnancy scare and are getting the pill as a result of a reality check. And others might just be uncomfortable with talking to a doctor about this kind of stuff, regardless of the situation.
When it comes down to it, if a girl under the age of consent requests an abortion, you should probably ask some questions. And if a girl above the age of consent is giving some red flags, genuine concern would not be out of line. The key here is to at least talk to the girl first, and not jump the gun to report something that could publicly and privately humiliate a girl unnecessarily. Doctors should open their ears before they open their mouths.
In Pennsylvania, pregnancy is considered an emancipating circumstance. So any minor who wants an abortion is an emancipated minor.
That’s why you need parental permission for vaccinations but not for abortion. Pregnancy makes the patient emancipated. The child getting vaccinated is not an emancipated minor, so parental consent is needed.
The problem with reporting suspected minor abuse is it makes minors afraid to turn to you the health-care professional for help. Next thing you know they’re taking illegal misoprostol or having their friends poke their cervix with pointy objects.
jasper, Those quotes are similar to the quotes I saw on a pro choice site. They were venting hate at mother Theresa. I can’t even repeat what I read. Let’s put it this way, “Old hag” was probably one of the “kinder” things said. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
Less,
“Pro choice women, no matter what God they worship, are disturbed and scary individuals. Anyone who believes in their right to physical autonomy enough to kill for it is dangerous and deranged…”
From your very own MK. Insults are insults, jasper, condemn them one and you really ought to condemn them all.
Those were actually your words Less, not mine. I simply exchanged abortion for religious fanatics…So unless your willing to apply these words “Insults are insults, jasper, condemn them one and you really ought to condemn them all”. on yourself, I don’t see that they merit much discussion.
And calling someone who kills her own child dangerous is not an insult. It’s an observation.
On the other hand, calling the pope an irrelevant, hateful, disgusting old relic”:
and hoping that he “burns in hell“, might, by some, be considered uncomplimentary.
But it was a good try…
Less,
In case there was any doubt…
Religious fundamentalists, no matter what God they worship, are disturbed and scary individuals. Anyone who believes in their unprovable religion enough to kill for it is dangerous and deranged.
Posted by: Less at May 9, 2007 11:45 PM
“Pro choice women, no matter what God they worship, are disturbed and scary individuals. Anyone who believes in their unprovable right to physical autonomy enough to kill for it is dangerous and deranged…”
From your very own MK. Insults are insults, jasper, condemn them one and you really ought to condemn them all.
If this is the best example of an insult by a pro-lifer that you can come up with, then I am pretty darned proud of our movement!
MK,Happy mother’s day!!
Happy mothers day all!
Happy Mothers Day to all the Moms.
(the most important job one can have)
The moment a child is born, the mother is also born. She never existed before. The woman existed, but the mother, never. A mother is something absolutely new. ~Rajneesh
Women’s Liberation is just a lot of foolishness. It’s the men who are discriminated against. They can’t bear children. And no one’s likely to do anything about that. ~Golda Meir
If evolution really works, how come mothers only have two hands? ~Milton Berle
Motherhood is priced
Of God, at price no man may dare
To lessen or misunderstand.
~Helen Hunt Jackson
“Of all the rights of women, the greatest is to be a mother.”
— Lin Yutang
“Over the years I have learned that motherhood is much like an austere religious order, the joining of which obligates one to relinquish all claims to personal possessions.”
— Nancy Stahl
The mother of three notoriously unruly youngsters was asked whether or not she’d have children if she had it to do over again. “Yes,” she replied. “But not the same ones.”- David Finkelstein
Happy Mother’s Day!
“If this is the best example of an insult by a pro-lifer that you can come up with, then I am pretty darned proud of our movement!”
yes MK, that’s what I was thinking…
Less, 5/12, 4:15p, said: “Jill, as pregnancies and STDs may also be the result of completely consensual sex, they should not be reported.”
You would not report a pregnant nonnervous, at peace 12-year-old, Less?\
Less, 5/12, 4:15p, said: “Not all children can trust their parents; you seem to forget this. I feel as though if a girl is comfortable enough with her parents to tell them the truth, they deserve to be involved and likely will be. If that bond of trust doesn’t exist, well, perhaps its better if they stay out of the matter.”
So you’re saying laws made should focus on the minority?
less:”Over and above the health issues, teen pregnancy severely impacts the mother’s educational opportunities, employment opportunities, and societial posisions. Would you really wish that upon anyone?”:
Less, your talking like this is a death sentence for the young Mother to be…. Still, your articles do not justify the slaughtering of unborn children.
Also Less, I believe your an atheist? correct?. In this case I don’t think we can come to terms on this issue of abortion, sex, etc. Because, my beliefs and values are just so different than yours….
jasper,good point.
jasper,
the ‘reason’ why many people are atheists is that they perceive a god as a determinator over moral life … one of the corollaries of being The Creator. [Oddly, this role is a normal part of being a parent … protective – maternal-ism and paternalism.] With no god, then morality is self-determined.
That’s the theory anyways. What usually happens though is a replacement of one belief system with another. It really is difficult not being fear-filled if you require yourself to be ‘perfect’/in-control at all times. Usually this leaves out all those non-perfects – kids, seniors, and disabled people.
The reason many people are atheists is that they simply prefer scientific facts over beliefs.
To get back to topic: The youngest mother known in Germany was 12 when she gave birth. Her daughter is now 5. I’d really dislike the idea of becoming a grandmother in my 20s / 30s. Therefore I’d prefer children being properly educated about sex and contraception over anything else.
Exactly, John…they replace one religion for another.
Oh John, that was an excellent post!
SOMG,
So we don’t report suspected abuse because it might make minors afraid to turn to health care professionals? Better we let their predators continue, predators you know darned well will prey on any and every child they can? Are you aware that a child might just be too fearful to report or may not realize they do not have to tolerate being abused?
Minors having abortions without consent leads to another problem. Let’s say the 15y/o goes home and develops a high fever or unusual bleeding. What then? Does she know enough to seek medical attention? Her parents, not knowing she had an abortion, may just think she has the flu. Let’s say she does go to a local emergency room or her own doctor and surgery or hositalization is required. Guess what, parental consent is needed and parents must be informed of the reason for hospitalization. This scenario isn’t far fetched SOMG, I have seen it happen.
“Sally” went to the doctor about her tonsils and happened to mention she had unusual bleeding. He sent her to an OB/GYN who had to take her for exploratory surgery. I don’t know if he knew about her abortion at this time. Turned out she had retained placental tissue. The OB/GYN had to tell her parents what he found. Being they had no knowledge of their daughter’s pregnancy or abortion this was certainly a shock. She must have had horribly abusive parents, right? No. They were very caring and concerned. Someone offered what looked like a quick and easy out to a very frightened girl. She did the very human thing, try to take what looked like an easy way out.
By the way SOMG, this retained tissue could easily have led to a deadly infection. This girl was either too frightened to seek help or she simply didn’t realize she was suffering a potentially dangerous complication.
In San Francisco, a minor had an abortion without her parents knowledge or consent. She developed chest pain. In a post surgical patient of any kind this is cause for concern. In a young girl who you do not know has had any surgical procedure, it won’t sound any alarm bells. She went to her family doctor, and being he did not know of her abortion, misdiagnosed her problem.
It turned out to be a blood clot which dislodged and went to her brain causing a very disabling stroke. Her parents had to care for a wheelchair bound daughter who hopefully can be rehabilitated.
Had the parents and her doctor known of the abortion, the first thing suspected would be a blood clot and she could have been treated sooner and this tragedy possible averted.
Whatever else you want to call it SOMG, abortion is surgery and surgery, no matter how “minor” carries risks. To treat it as anything else is, as you can see, to put minor girls at very serious risk.
jasper, I have no idea where you get the idea that I’m an atheist. I’m not an atheist: I’m actually quite spiritual. I am not, however, a Christian, as I left the church five or so years ago. It isn’t a death sentence for the mother to be, but it’s not a fun life, and a teen shouldn’t be forced into it. To you they might not justify abortion, but to me they more than do. I would never wish the life of a teen mother on anyone, and I would certainly never force it upon anyone.
MK, as a woman who has an abortion is not killing a child, she is terminating her pregnancy and killing a fetus, your observation is less of an observation and more of a hateful opinion. As to what I said about religious fundamentalism, would you say, then, that people who kill for their religion are normal? Would you defend them, MK? Muslims who kill for their religion are universally condemned; why should other religions be any different?
Jill, no, I would not report a pregnant 12 year old unless I talked to her, at length, and got her permission first. And I’d tend to think that the vast majority of children are not as comfortable talking to their parents as you’d like to think: they’re certainly not the minority. In most cases, it is because of a differing viewpoints.
I would never wish the life of a teen mother on anyone, and I would certainly never force it upon anyone.
I was a mother at 18, and was happy. My mother became pregnant with me when she was in highschool, at age 16, kept me, and was very happy.
Oh and she finished school too, and even went to college… became a real estate agent…etc…
Less,
Sexual predators certainly have a friend in you. So you’d have no problem with sending this child back into the control of a sexual predator, because like it or not Less, that’s exactly what you would be doing if you do not report this. Her permission? She may be too terrified to give it. She may have siblings and a mother being abused that she fears for. She may not even realize she does not have to tolerate being abused. If you abort her and send her home, the abuse will only continue. Someone IS abusing her, be it a parent, relative, or “boyfriend”. What if eventually this child ends up infected with AIDS, if she’s not already?
Your reporting could stop the abuse and put a predator in jail, where he belongs. Do you think predators confine themselves to one victim? By reporting, you may spare many victims the anguish of sexual abuse. I mean, wouldn’t you report the abuse of an animal in the hopes of stopping it?
Less,
I would also add that I have seen grown women so intimidated and fearful of an abuser, be it sexual or physical, that they refused all offers of assistance. They were fearful for themselves, their children, and what would happen if the abuser was reported. These women were also fearful as to how they would manage on their own. If a grown woman can be so fearful and intimidated, what can you possibly expect from a sexually abused child?
Happy Mother’s Day ( to all the mommys and soon-to-be-mommys)!
And to answer the question you asked me earlier Jill, yes I would have a problem if an 11 y/o asked for BC pills to prevent pregnancy. If it was prescribed to her for a medical condtion (like mine, ovarian cysts), than no, I wouldnt have a problem with it. But if the child is @ the age that doctor patient confidentiality clause applies, they dont have to have their parents permission, or even let them know anything about their medical records.
What if the child were to develop complications from the pills? Would the child know enough to seek medical attention or know that they even need it? When I worked in the emergency room our doctors would not even speak to a minor without parental consent, unless of course it was an emergent situation, and then someone, often me, was on the phone hunting for a parent or guardian. Where I work now, we never discharge post surgical adults unless they are with another adult, and a full set of instructions, but minors are sent home from abortion clinics on their own? It seems one could get into some pretty difficult legal situations by not informing parents of a minor child’s medications or what procedures they’ve had done.
Mary, not ever pregnant twelve year old has been violently molested or raped or otherwise abused. Did you know that the average age that one looses their virginity is 14.5 years? The majority of pregnant twelve year olds had completely consensual sex and became pregnant, likely because the government is too afraid of their own genetilia to institute a useful sex ed program. I would not report or force parental concent of such cases: I would not violate the privacy of the many because of the tragedy of the few.
Like I said Less, you would send this girl back home to the person abusing her? How can you be so certain she isn’t being violently abused? Maybe she gives in out of fear for herself or other family members. She may not be completely honest with you as to what is happening. Maybe her “consensual” sex was with a 21y/o who likes having sex with lots of 12 year olds, and younger. Also, if you provide an abortion for this girl without parental consent and she develops complications, like the ones mentioned in my previous post, then what?
Less,
You talk of protecting the privacy of the many over the tragedy of a few. Its acceptable to send “a few” victims back to their abusers?
Yes I am aware of how early girls are losing their virginity, but does that mean we do nothing to protect them? Its my understanding drug abuse has been starting at younger ages. I suppose we should cover up a minor child’s drug abuse as well and provide him/her with whatever they need to “safely” use drugs.
Frankly, Mary, I’m for the legalization of all drugs: they would have an age of concent, similar to cigarettes and alcohol, and injectable drugs would be provided with sterile needles so as to reduce risk of spreading diseases. It shouldn’t be covered up, but it should be regulated so people could use drugs safely. So that argument isn’t going to fly with me.
And you speak of protecting girls who loose their virginity young: condoms and hormonal birth control do that. It would be great if all parents had the kind of relationship with their offspring that would allow open communcation regarding sex, but the reality of it is that such relationships are very rare indeed. In my high school and college, the proportion of teens who were nearly kicked out because they had sex was far higher than those who had any sort of understanding with their parents.
Mary, not all pregnant twelve year olds are being abused. I think you’re missing that point. Contrary to what you seem to believe, there are usually signs of sexual abuse: there is usually bruising, vaginal tearing, and likely a fear of being touched. If a minor exhibited some of these issues, than the doctor has every right to ask questions. But the patient’s confidentiality needs to be preserved if at all possible.
My comment was not about the legalization of drugs. Why an age of consent for drugs? Or cigarettes and alcohol for that matter. If underage kids are consenting to using drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes, then what’s the problem?
If you ever watch Dateline where they trap the internet predators, you will realize that not all these girls are violently assaulted. They are instead very easy prey for slimeballs like these who are forever on the hunt, especially for the very young ones. Its one of these lowlifes that she could be having “consenual” sex with and who you could very well be enabling. By the way, why go after these predators at all if minors girls are considered mature enough to give their consent? Also, a girl may be so victimized by a parent or relative and just come to accept that this is normal, or just be so intimidated, that force is not needed.
Yes it would be the perfect world if parents and children always had an open communication about sex, and everything else. Should the police first determine if a child has good communication with his/her parents before informing the parents of a minor’s involvement in a crime?
Should school officials not report to parents about failing grades or bad behavior if a child just feels that, well, my parents and I don’t communicate.
I’m sure you would agree that if a problem in the home is that serious, social services should be contacted.
Good, bad, or indifferent, parents are held responsible for their children. When I have patients who are minors, I speak with BOTH patient and parents and you can bet I have parental consent as well. I could care less how well they communicate at home. When I worked the emergency room, I didn’t ask minors about how well they communicated with their parents, a parent got called.
In my above post I spoke of the minor girl who had an abortion without parental consent and suffered a stroke from an undiagnosed blood clot. Her parents weren’t considered fit or responsible enough to be consulted or give their consent, but they’re plenty fit and responsible enough to care for their disabled daughter.
Mary, I don’t watch the Dateline special reports: they smack too much of public hangings for my tastes. They thrive on shock value and are a bastardization of responsible journalism. I think they ought to be pulled from the air, frankly.
If a teen girl can pay for her own abortion, than I see no reason why parents should be contacted. As a teen girl can not often pay her own court costs, serious medical expenses, or school taxes, I believe that makes the difference, though I could be mistaken.
That’s great that you talk to both parents. But depending on the state, if the patient requested that you did not and you did anyway, you could be charged with breach of doctor/patient confidentiality. In some states, if the police obtain information from such a breach, the information cannot be used in court.
Mary, great points…and I hope you are having a great mother’s day!
Whatever your opinion of Dateline, it does show that predators are out there and on the prowl for young girls.
Again, if the girl has an abortion she pays for and goes home and develops complications, what then? I gave an example in an above post of a young girl unaware of the fact she was developing a serious complication and required surgery. She was a minor so the doctor had to tell her parents what he found. If she had confided to him as her doctor about having an abortion but required no treatment from him, then very likely he would not be required to say anything. Its possible that fear of parents finding out could keep a girl from seeking the medical care she needs as well.
The issue concerning court, school, etc. is not about cost. Its about parental responsibility and the fact parents are held responsible, whether they’re good, bad, or indifferent.
I don’t always talk to both parents, sometimes only one. The point is a parent or parents, or legal guardian are involved every step of the way, or I don’t lay a hand on their child. The minor is discharged as well into the care of a parent or guardian who are given instructions as to what complications to watch for.
Dateline is a wonderful show. It has been proven that if children are raped and molested, they may go on to also rape and molest. Less, are you saying that this is okay? I’m at a loss for words here. Aren’t you glad that someone is trying to stop child abuse? Legalize drugs? Again, are you serious? This makes NO sense!
Mary and Bethany, hope you 2 are having a great mother’s day!
Almost unbelievable, isn’t it, Heather?
Heather, ditto to you!! :) How’s your little baby?
I’ve been doing a lot of cooking and dicing veggies for my OAMC this month…right now I just finished kneading the dough for 4 pizzas. :) Yay! :) Still have much more to do though, and thought I’d take a break. ;)
If we are going to protect the reproductive “choice” of the 12 year old, then what next? Allow the 9 year old to sign for her abortion too? You must draw the line somewhere!
Bethany and Heather4life,
Thank you for the Mother’s Day wishes, they are appreciated. I hope you both have a wonderful Mother’s Day. I’m on my way out the door for dinner with my two babies, ages 20 and 22 and their dad. Less, I hope you have a wonderful day as well with your family.
If we are going to protect the reproductive “choice” of the 12 year old, then what next? Allow the 9 year old to sign for her abortion too? You must draw the line somewhere!
People like Less have no lines. They have no moral standards. They have no basis for anything they stand for, except their own selfish desires.
Bethany, Hi. I’ve been on and off too. The baby is great! I just can’t believe what I’m reading. Prevention of child abuse is up to all of us. I don’t care if it’s Dateline, my neighbor, a teacher or MYSELF. I would never just shrug my shoulders and say “Ah well.” “Let em do whatever the heck they want.””It doesn’t concern me.” We are talking about children here. It could happen to our children someday. If some creep went after one of my children, I’d want them stopped.
Its possible that fear of parents finding out could keep a girl from seeking the medical care she needs as well.
Don’t you think that this is a problem with the parents? If a child is afraid of their parents, there is something significantly wrong with the relationship there. If the girl has significant problems after a legal abortion, think of the problems that might occur after an illegal, botched abortion. I’ve heard of cases where girls have tried to drink Draino to abort the child: the after-affects of that are absolutely horrendous.
Heather4life, you might think Dateline is a wonderful show: I’m a Communication Arts major, and I can give you pages of things that are wrong for it. It’s just like Survivor or American Idol, playing off the fears of the American people to make a quick buck. It’s disgusting. As for your claim that children who are molested go on to molest, that’s true, but the precentage is still very, very, small. We need to find better ways to treat the problem of child abuse: did you know nearly 90% of all child molestation cases end with the perpetrator pleaing out and getting a few years of probation and absolutely no jailtime? We need to work on that, not produce more TV shows which put more molesters right back out on the streets.
Yes, I believe drugs ought to be legalized. I also believe that prostitution should be legalized. Frankly I don’t care what other people do with their bodies, so long as it doesn’t affect me.
Bethany, I love pizza. I’m going to go to your site. I seem to remember you had a great recipe for pizza. I’m hungry for it as I type.
Bethany, I have morals: I just don’t declare a jihad against everyone who disagrees with me. :)
Heather, click on the “recipes” section, and you’ll find it there. :)
Wow.
Okay, I would like to address the original question; I feel that a minor who is pregnant or who is having to have STD tests should be reported to some authority, but it should not be assumed that the person who contributed to her situation was raping her. If she is requesting contraception, I believe that her parents alone should be notified (assuming that this is just regular old BC and not the MAP) because it is used to treat sooo many conditions.
I suppose that I was just raised differently from people my own age, but I feel that a parent who is raising a child has the right to know what that child is doing. If a parent is clothing, feeding, and providing the electricity for a child, she should be given all the information that she can to do the best she can to improve that child’s life. I dont think it is a parent’s job to be her child’s best friend. It is her job to be her mother.
And to answer the question you asked me earlier Jill, yes I would have a problem if an 11 y/o asked for BC pills to prevent pregnancy. If it was prescribed to her for a medical condtion (like mine, ovarian cysts), than no, I wouldnt have a problem with it.
I don’t know where we could find out, but it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that an 11 could not get a prescription for birth control for ovarian cysts without a parents consent. I wonder if the rules are different if you are using b/c to cure something as opposed to preventing pregnancy…
MK:
Not sure if there is stats on that not. Granted, I dont know about other states, but in Alabama, when you turn 12, you gain the right of doctor patient confidintiality. I remember having to fill out papers for my pediatrician saying he could talk to mother about my medical records, prescriptions, etc. My first ovarian cyst happened when my mother was out of town, and I hadnt added my dad to take me to E.R.,and when they transfered my records over, they made him leave the room and wouldnt tell him what was going on with me (14 at the time). He was *FURIOUS* and I was confused and scared.
So to answer your question, if the child is at the age of doctor patient confidintiality, then the parents dont have to know unles the child wants them too.
Hey MK:
Those states and ages for consent to sex that you posted on Friday, where did you get that info from? Curious, b/c my friend was wondering where it came from.
Jill,
My opinion is there should be no age limit.
Sexual crimes against minor girls who are seeking abortions to cover the tracks of a sexual criminal should be treated like any other crime, like murder.
To even ask the question as if it were debatable gives evidence as to how far the slippery slope of moral relativism we have slid. It should not even be a question for those willing to kill an unborn child in the womb.
By the way; Jill, MK, Bathany, Valerie…..may God continue to bless you all beyond what you can ask or imagine as mothers. There’s is nothing is this world like a great mom. My five kids keep reminding me of that and I ask them, “What about us dads”?
Your day comes in June Hisman.
Comin’ late to the party. Darned network.
Less:
“Jill, as pregnancies and STDs may also be the result of completely consensual sex, they should not be reported.”
Well if it comes to that, folks, what if the gut wound was the result of consensual fencing?
I’ve never understood why pro-choice folks act as if consensual SEX were the only reasonable exception to medical issues for minors. I mean, seriously. What is it about SEX alone that merits this kind of thing? Why NOT consensual fencing?
Please. Less idiocy. Pun not intended. ;-)
Frankly, rasqual, if something is the result of consensual fenscing, I don’t think it ought to be a crime. If both people agree, what the heck, I don’t care. Give them the treatment they want and leave them be.
You’re missing the point: so long as something is consensual, I don’t care. I think consensual drug use should be legalized, consensual fensing ought be legalized, and any consensual sexual activity possibly imagined is none of anyone else’s business. If both parties agree, I do not care.
So minors should be able to get medical attention without their parents being notified if they’re injured as a result of consensual fencing?
Rasquel, I can think of no situation where a parent wouldn’t eventually figure it out anyway, as medical bills are fairly expensive. If the kid can pay for it by his/her self, than I frankly do not care if s/he tells his/her parents.
If doctor patient confidintiality is allowed, then yes.
Less:
Whether you care isn’t at issue — what should the law be?
Midnite678:
What should determine whether d/p confidentiality should be “allowed?” Not sure what “allowed” even means. Confidentiality isn’t really in question; the question is the scope of it. Few courts would find it remarkable that in thousands of facilities around the country every week, doctors tell parents what’s going on with their children. However, the same courts would certainly find it remarkable if these same doctors would be announcing the child’s affairs to the entire waiting room.
Rasqual:
I think it is different for different states. Mine (Ala) is 12. I had to fill out papers for my pediatrician saying who he could or could not talk to about my medical records, prescriptions, etc.
The law should be mandatory doctor/patient confidentiality, without exceptions, after the onset of puberty, approximately thirteen.
Doctor/patient confidentiality does not prevent a doctor from reporting a felony. Ever. In addition, if a doctor violates the Hippocratic Oath by not seeking the best possible care for his patient, he will be stripped of the ability to practice medicine. I think the question has now become a much more difficult one, which is how to determine if a crime has actually been committed.
Well that is tru Samantha. But if the minor in question is at the age of consent in their state, there is no crime to report, b/c technically one was not commited.
Less:
Whether you care isn’t at issue — what should the law be?
Midnite678:
What should determine whether d/p confidentiality should be “allowed?” Not sure what “allowed” even means. Confidentiality isn’t really in question; the question is the scope of it. Few courts would find it remarkable that in thousands of facilities around the country every week, doctors tell parents what’s going on with their children. However, the same courts would certainly find it remarkable if these same doctors would be announcing the child’s affairs to the entire waiting room.
Pardon the duplicate posts.
Less:
“The law should be mandatory doctor/patient confidentiality, without exceptions, after the onset of puberty, approximately thirteen.”
LOL
Glad you have a sense of humor in the middle of all this, Less. Good one.
Rasqual:
Not a problem. Did you understand where I was comming from with the post that I answered to you?
No, I’m pretty much clueless tonight. ;-)
Seriously.
I’ll get over it. I hope.
Raquel, heaven help you should you have children: you’re going to learn very quickly that kids simply do not trust their parents, and that daughters really have no desire to have their fathers involved in their sex lives.
“Raquel, heaven help you should you have children: you’re going to learn very quickly that kids simply do not trust their parents”
Less, can a ask you a personal question? What church did you leave when you left? If your not comfortable telling, don’t worry…
jasper, I was Catholic and I left for a myriad of reasons. I was in the process of joining the Lutheran church when the paster gave a fire-and-brimestone sermon about homosexuality, and realized that frankly, the Christian church just isn’t for me.
“jasper, I was Catholic”
I knew it! I knew it!
I’m a Catholic myself, but in the last 20-30 years we’ve had problems keeping people in the faith. But, the good news is we’re starting to straigten things out and getting back to the real teachings of the Catholic church.
why did you leave, (the main reason), If I may ask.
The main reason? I’m a pantheist: I believe that all Gods/Goddesses are equally valid, and simply reflections of a greater divinity. I also believe that sex is great and wonderful and should be done as often as possible, and that contraception in all forms is a beautiful thing. Plus I have no desire to feel guilty simply for being born: I don’t believe in original sin.
“I also believe that sex is great and wonderful”
So doesn’t the Catholic Church (In Marriage).
But you we’re a Christian before a pantheist, correct? Why did you eventually reject the teachings and divinity of Jesus?
hey Less, join the Presbyterian church. They support homosexuality and even through a Gay and Lesbian day @ Walt Disney world every year. My grandfater got pissed and switched to the Methodist church.lol.
jasper, I don’t believe in marriage. And I never want to become pregnant.
I believe Jesus is divine; he was a nifty guy. I don’t believe in the Bible as it is filled with homophobia, sexism, racism, and other nasty things that I don’t consider to be particularly holy.
And Rasqual:
My brain doesnt work on the weekends anymore (I think it goes into hibernation), so I am clueless from Friday @ 6:00pm to Monday @ 8:00am.
“I believe Jesus is divine”
So you believe Jesus in the son of God. (good)
the church teaches that homosexual feelings is not in itself sinful. It is the homosexual acts that it rejects. Just as if I were to have commited adultery, that is also a sin.
Sexism? ( Christianity teaches to respect and honor woman )
Racism – no, not at all.
jasper, I never said I believe Jesus is the son of God. I simply believe he is divine. There’s a large difference.
I don’t believe homosexuality is sinful at all, in any circumstance. Christianity also teaches wthat women should be submissive to their husbands, that they should be quiet in the church, and are saved through childbirth. I disagree with all of them, very strongly disagree. As for racism, what would you call it that the Israelites were told by no less than God himself to kill the Caanites because of their religion? What would you call it that the Israelites are not allowed to marry certain races because of nothing besides their race?
I never have understood what was so bad with being a homosexual. I mean at least they found someone to love them back. I dont care if their blue/green/alien/gay etc, if they found love (true love), good for them!
Less, there is not a big difference
divine:of or pertaining to god, the Supreme Being.
Less, I’m not sure what or how this got into your head, but your taking a bunch of things out of context.
Just remember that christ died for you on the cross and Loves you more than any “goddess”
Good-Night and God Bless you
jasper, I’m not Christian, I have no desire to be, that isn’t going to change. I’m happy with my beliefs, I’m happy with who I am, the end.
Mary I didn’t say we don’t report abuse. I’m just pointing out that there are arguments, good ones, on the other side as well.
If Doctor/Patient priveledge is age twelve in Alabama I don’t understand why these same girls would need parental permission to get a tatoo, have their ears pierced or buy beer…something is wacky.
Also I think the age of parent/doctor confidentiality should be when the minor/child has their own insurance or can pay the doctor bills by themselves.
Other than taxes, I can’t think of a single thing where you are forced to cough up money without knowing beforehand where the money is going…really, really wacky.
midnite,
http://www.webistry.net/jan/consent.html
this is the site that I got the ages for consent.
Or you can type “age of consent by state” in your google search…a lot of things pop up, but like Val said earlier, some of the sites are a bit unsavory.
I sent the “Eliot” video to one of the priests at my church and he used it in his homily Sunday.
He brought up a very interesting point.
He said that many people were probably surprised that Eliots parents carried him to term, their argument being: “Why would woman bring a child like this into the world when they knew that he would suffer and then die, and that she too would go through terrible suffering having to let him go…”
He said that using that logic, Mary would have been encouraged to abort Jesus, because He was only going to be born so that He could suffer and die, and she was going to have to go through terrible suffering having watch him die…
Interesting…we have often heard that she would have been encouraged to abort because Joseph wasn’t the father and in those days a woman that was pregnant from an unknown “source” was to be stoned to death, but I never thought about the “suffering” angle.
Of course as the mother of six, I would argue that if “suffering” because of your children was a reason to abort, no woman should EVER have children.
Even the best of children are going to cause their mothers grief at one point or another…
Anyway, I just thought it was interesting…
Less:
“Raquel, heaven help you should you have children: you’re going to learn very quickly…”
Already did. Four times.
As for whether adolescents should be given a pass simply because they don’t want parents involved in their sex lives . . . GOOD GRIEF. Duh. But that’s just part of a larger pattern of adolescents not wanting to obey their parents, be seen when walking in public with their parents, etc. Adolescence is a lunatic stage of life. Cosby would call it “brain damage.” And parents, thankfully, aren’t obligated to pretend that adolescents are in charge just ’cause they have delusions of independence.
Learning that adolescents don’t want parents involved in their sex lives hardly translates into a conclusion that parents should let ’em rut and roll whenever they want. Good grief.
Less:
“Raquel, heaven help you should you have children: you’re going to learn very quickly…”
“Less, heaven help you should you have children: you’re going to learn very quickly…”
Unfortunately, you won’t have “heaven” to help you…but perhaps if you are ever a parent to a teenager, you’ll realize the need for God in your life…or an entire police force, not to mention tranquilizers and a shrink! lol
mk
Less:
“Raquel, heaven help you should you have children: you’re going to learn very quickly…”
Already did. Four times.
I find it sooooo funny that someone who obviously detests pregnancy and childbirth, and who does not have children of her own, can pass judgement on being a good parent to someone else with children.
Rasqual, I remember being younger, inexperienced with what actually was involved in caring for a child, and I remember thinking I knew everything there was to know about being a good parent. I had a list of things to do and not to do, by watching other parents and seeing their “faults”…and I’d look at other kids and I would think, my kids will NEVER act like that, cause I’ll teach them to be better! BOY did I have a wakeup call when I realized how different being a parent actually is than the idealized version I held in my mind! It’s amazing how actually caring for a child can explain so much that no one person could ever explain in words.
Being the perfect parent is easy, when you’re doing it vicariously…..
Less,
You fail to address my question as to what happens when a minor leaves the abortion clinic and develops complications. You dredge up that old argument of self induced abortion. That doesn’t answer my question. I gave you two examples of life threatening situations after a “safe legal” abortion. In one case the girl was treated in time, in another she suffered a serious disability. I’ve seen minors do some pretty crazy and life threatening
things to get high, sometimes resulting in fatality. Should we make “safe” drugs available and legal so they won’t resort to dangerous street drugs or homemade concoctions?
About tattoos, in my state any one under 18y/o old
cannot be tattooed, even with parental consent. Imagine the nerve of the state!
SOMG, when is it acceptable not to report a pregnancy in a 12y/o? At the very least you can ask a social service agency to investigate.
This thread shows that pro-choice folk are willing to protect the license to kill at any cost to logic, sanity, or parental responsibility, even if it includes foisting the loneliness of heavy responsibility for their own good on even very young girls.
Unconscionable and, as far as I’m concerned, quite impeaching of the rationality of some of the participants here.
BTW, if anyone wants to know where I stand on what it means to be a minor or an adult, read Locke. ;-)
Rasqual,
What I wonder about is when parents became these heartless, unfeeling orges. Kids think their parents don’t understand them. This is new? I remember 1950s movies with this theme, the troubled teen and parents who just don’t understand.
We hold parents responsible for their children. If there are serious problems, we have social service agencies that can and should be contacted. Dysfunctional families are as old as the human race. The solution is not to send minor girls back to abusers. We were taught that children will often cover up for their abusers because of fear, threats, or because they have been so psychologically twisted by abuse that they come to accept it. So will grown women for that matter. Teenage girls can be easy prey to predators who they see as loving “boyfriends”. We have a moral if not legal obligation to investigate and take some action if we see a pregnant minor. If nothing else, to protect her from devastating and even fatal STDs. If there is abuse in the home and a minor has any reason to fear for their safety, then social services should be contacted. The risk of sending the minor back to an abusive situation is not acceptable to “protect privacy” or any other reason.
Mary, sometimes parents honestly do not understand. If you have a child who has a different religious outlook, a different view of sex, a different stance on abortion or contraceptives, should they be forced to conform with parental standards? It’d be wonderful if parents and children always agreed on these things, but they don’t. Should they be made to?
As per doctor/patient confidentiality, the girl who got the abortion can simply tell the doctor to not reveal the cause of her complication, and the doctor must not do so. I believe drugs should be legalized, so that argument isn’t going to go anywhere with me, and I think that 18 as an age of concent for tattoos is great. Privacy, however, should know no such age limit.
MK, as you don’t believe in patient/doctor confidentiality, I’m quite glad you’re not a doctor. And one doesn’t need to be Christian to be a parent: I think the vast number of Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other assorted parents of various religions proves that.
Bethany and rasquel, I’m simply stating that if your teens/adolescents want to do something, they will. If they want to have sex, they will: no matter what you prevent them from doing, who you prevent them from seeing, and what home rules you have. Every teen I have ever known who has been taught abstinance at home has been deflowered in high school, while still living with their parents. If your children want to have sex and don’t agree with how you believe, they’re going to have sex, and that’s the reality of it.
Less,
Bethany and rasquel, I’m simply stating that if your teens/adolescents want to do something, they will. If they want to have sex, they will: no matter what you prevent them from doing, who you prevent them from seeing, and what home rules you have. Every teen I have ever known who has been taught abstinance at home has been deflowered in high school, while still living with their parents. If your children want to have sex and don’t agree with how you believe, they’re going to have sex, and that’s the reality of it.
So your solution is to turn a blind eye? Condone these behaviors? Make them all legal so that it’s easier?
When your sister or mother or brother gets killed by a pregnant, drunk 17 year old prostitue, stoned on pot, high on cocaine, doing 20 miles over the speed limit on her way to get an abortion, I’ll be sure to remind you that “she was going to do it anyway…now she can do it and not pay the consequences…)or do you think manslaughter should be kept illegal? After all, no matter what the speed limit is, someone somewhere is going to break it…
Mary, sometimes parents honestly do not understand. If you have a child who has a different religious outlook, a different view of sex, a different stance on abortion or contraceptives, should they be forced to conform with parental standards? It’d be wonderful if parents and children always agreed on these things, but they don’t. Should they be made to?
As long as they’re living under my roof and eating food that my husband and I provide for them, of course. Less, is it inconceivable to you that a child might not be capable of understanding everything that his or her parents knows, understands, and has had experience with?
For instance, my 2 year old son sometimes wants to run towards the road. Being older than him and knowing that there are sometimes cars on that road, and knowing that the cars could hit and kill him, I tell him not to run into the road, and if he tries to, I make sure to stop him. If I tried to explain to him that he could get hurt (if he had the capacity to understand what I was saying), he would not believe me. He would think he could walk in the road and be perfectly safe. Should I not have the right to intervene and do what I know as a parent, and pull him away from the road to keep him safe?
Let’s see, my 7 year old son wants to eat candy and sugary products all day long. As an experienced parent, I know that prolonged exposure to sugar can cause serious dental problems (which I would have to pay for), health problems, etc. Should I not have a right to tell him, No, son, you can’t have sugar all day. I’ll moderate your sugar intake. ?
My children don’t want to wear their seatbelts in the car. Being older and more experienced than them, I know what can happen if you don’t wear your seatbelt. I make sure that everyone is strapped in the car before we go anywhere. If my child doesn’t “WANT” to wear his seatbelt, I’d be stupid or negligent to allow him to go without.
Unfortunately, you won’t have “heaven” to help you…but perhaps if you are ever a parent to a teenager, you’ll realize the need for God in your life…or an entire police force, not to mention tranquilizers and a shrink! lol
And one doesn’t need to be Christian to be a parent: I think the vast number of Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other assorted parents of various religions proves that.
Nowhere did I mention Jesus. Just God. And the last time I looked Muslims and Hindus not only believe in a God (or more) but they turn to him/them in their “hours of need”…
All I’m saying is Good Luck counting on the “Church of Less” to get you through parenting!
mk
Less, I’ll bet you wouldn’t agree with locking up perverted abortionists either.
Less, the more you prattle on, the less I am believing anything you have to say.
Bethany and rasquel, I’m simply stating that if your teens/adolescents want to do something, they will. If they want to have sex, they will: no matter what you prevent them from doing, who you prevent them from seeing, and what home rules you have. Every teen I have ever known who has been taught abstinance at home has been deflowered in high school, while still living with their parents. If your children want to have sex and don’t agree with how you believe, they’re going to have sex, and that’s the reality of it.
Not always, Less. I’m living proof of that.
Less,This is your world: Legalize drugs,legalize prostitution [at any age] Allow pedophiles to do as they please, allow incest. Don’t ask any questions when a minor comes in for an abortion. Screw religion cuz Less said so. Nope,no children cuz Less hates them. Label pregnancy as a disease. Parents should have no say so over their minor children.
MK, as I don’t believe sex to be a crime, I don’t particularly care if teens run around having it. Drugs ought to have an age of concent similar to tobacco, prositution should be regulated so that teens under 18 would not be able to work. Your rights end where mine began: as others using drugs, selling themselves, or having sex doesn’t hurt anyone else in any way, shape, or form, make them legal.
Have I ever said I don’t believe in a God or more? I simply don’t believe in YOUR God, MK.
Bethany, that’s great: for every one person who abides by all of their parents rules, there are ten who don’t. The average age for loss of virginity in this country is 14.5, and as 9/10 Americans have had sex…well, you do the math.
Heather, again, anything constructive to add to the discussion?
I believe in legalizing prositution and drugs for those who are over the age of majority: 18. I don’t care about incest so long as no children are produced from the union: that last bit ought to be legally enforced. I might not agree with incest, but so long as no children are produced, it certainly doesn’t harm anyone. Pedophillia harms the child, and thus should be illegal. I don’t care what religion you are, so long as you don’t pull a HisMan and try and force it on others. I don’t care if you have children, so long as you don’t botch the job of parenting.
Less,Do YOU have anything constructive to add? That would be a better asked question. All I see from you is a bunch of silly nonsense!
Less, You are sickening!
Less, what do you mean incest doesn’t harm anyone? Are you another internet troll?
Less, what was the virginity rate 50 years ago? and how does it compare to today, with Planned Parenthood’s version of sex education?
It is not the responsibility of the schools to teach their sex religion to children. That is the parents responsibility. Children should be taught about sex. But they shouldn’t be taught that having sex as much as you please with anyone you decide to at the moment is okay, because it’s just not. I choose to protect my children from STD’s, AIDS, and a life of superficial love, by teaching them how to be WISE about sex.
Less,
I don’t care if you have children, so long as you don’t botch the job of parenting.
The world according to Less…should bad parenting be illegal and punishable by law?
Pedophillia harms the child, and thus should be illegal.
Really, Less? Well, what if the child consents to it? What if a 8 year old boy consents to the man defiling him?
Bethany, prove that its not okay? I think what you mean is that its not okay for you: that’s great that it isn’t. If parents could be trusted to teach their kids everything that there is to know about sex, than I’d wholeheartedly support that, but how many parents do you know who are aware of the exact failure rate of condoms? Of the pill? The school shouldn’t shove their opinions about sex at the students, I’d agree with that, but the facts should be taught.
I find it interesting that you’re saying that the school shouldn’t teach their “sex religion” to children, but I bet you’d wholeheartedly support Christian education. Is that because you agree with it, Bethany? Seems a pretty unstable backing to a decision.
Heather, I do not care what two concenting people do in the bedroom. It frankly isn’t my business, and as it doesn’t harm me or anyone else, why should it be legislated? I’m not going to fight for a person’s right to bang their sister, but if they want to do it, I’m not going to cry that it should be illegal/they should be punished for it. I wouldn’t do it, it’s morally wrong to me, but I’m not going to force that on everyone.
Please Less, for the second time, I never posted against the legalization of drugs, I simply use that as an example.
You think an age of consent for a tattoo is great? Why? Certainly if a minor is able to consent to an abortion she’s just as able to consent to a tattoo. She’s also just as capable of deciding to smoke or use alcohol. It is her body, right? She and her parents may disagree on tattoos, cigarettes and liquor but so what? Since when do parents and kids always agree?
If the minor is going to surgery or must be hospitalized for any reason, the parents will have to be informed as to why so that proper consent can be given. The doctor also has to cover him/herself legally. Also, parents will need to observe the child for post op complications so they must be honestly informed. The above example I gave of “Sally”. The doctor didn’t inform her parents of the abortion to be mean, she was a minor, he operated for a post abortion complication, and he had to inform her parents exactly what he did, like he would any other surgical procedure. They also had to know what complications to be alert for post operatively while she was at home. Something that wasn’t done when she had her abortion without her parents’ knowlege or consent.
According to Less, incest doesn’t harm anyone as long as no children are produced. That is beyond sick! That makes my skin crawl. So, dad can bed down with his 12 year old daughter when he’s horny? Will she get pregnant? Sounds like a game of Russian roulette to me.
MK, yes, I think it should: not by jail time, perhaps by mandatory parenting classes. Bad parenting is subjective, however: to me, bad parenting would include teaching your child that they’re going to hell if they aren’t Christian. As child abuse/neglect is already illegal, I think we’re doing all we can without going into very subjective definitions.
Oh Less, you have got to be kidding me. I don’t think you’re being serious at all.
Less, 9:58a, said: “I don’t care about incest so long as no children are produced from the union: that last bit ought to be legally enforced. I might not agree with incest, but so long as no children are produced, it certainly doesn’t harm anyone.”
*picking up dropped mouth from floor*
Less, are you by any chance a victim of incest?
Less,are you?
Jill, no, I am not a victim of incest, and yes, Heather I am serious about not caring what people do in the bedroom. Do either of you want to prove that incest is harmful if both parties concent and are at an age where they understand said concent? If its proven harmful to either parties, then and only then should it be illegal.
Like I said…no moral standard.
Oooh here’s a question, Less. Suppose a couple who are engaging in incest get pregnant. Suppose this couple wants to keep the baby. Do you give them the choice to do so?
I just want to see how far you’ll go…
How old should a person be to consent to incest?
Bethany, as I also said previously: I have a moral standard, I just don’t declare a jihad against those that disagree with me. :)
What do you base your moral standards on, Less?
Well,how old should a person be to consent to incest?
Bethany, no. If you concent to engage in incest, you should also concent to the fact that no children shoudl be produced from such a union.
As incest, so far as I’m aware, is illegal, I’d consider this dicussion pointless, quite frankly. I’ve never seen anyone clambar to legalize it, either.
This article attempts to confine itself to discussion of relativism in morality and ethics. For other manifestations of relativism, see relativism.
In philosophy, moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect objective and/or universal moral truths, but instead make claims relative to social, cultural, historical or personal circumstances. Moral relativists hold that no universal standard exists by which to assess an ethical proposition’s truth. Relativistic positions often see moral values as applicable only within certain cultural boundaries or in the context of individual preferences. An extreme relativist position might suggest that judging the moral or ethical judgments or acts of another person or group has no meaning, though most relativists propound a more limited version of the theory.
Some moral relativists ? for example, the existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre ? hold that a personal and subjective moral core lies or ought to lie at the foundation of individuals’ moral acts. In this view public morality reflects social convention, and only personal, subjective morality expresses true authenticity.
Moral relativism differs from moral pluralism ? which acknowledges the co-existence of opposing ideas and practices, but accepts limits to differences, such as when vital human needs get violated. Moral relativism, in contrast, grants the possibility of moral judgments that do not accept such limits.
Portal:Philosophy
Philosophy Portal
In popular culture people often describe themselves as “morally relativist,” meaning that they are accepting of other people’s values and agree that there is no one “right” way of doing some things. However, this actually has little to do with the philosophical idea of relativism; relativism does not necessarily imply tolerance, just as moral objectivism does not imply intolerance. These people’s moral outlook can be explained from both theoretical frameworks.
Contents
Well dear God no! It’s revolting to even think about legalizing it.
Bethany, no. If you concent to engage in incest, you should also concent to the fact that no children shoudl be produced from such a union.
Hehe I got Less to admit she’s not pro-choice.
Less:
“prositution should be regulated so that teens under 18 would not be able to work. Your rights end where mine began”
Um . . . so why aren’t you willing to extend the freedom you claim in the second sentence, there, to people who are under 18? I mean, who are you to impose your controlling will on a 17 year old who aspires to be a first rate prostitute? Virtuoso cellists generally begin their training at a very young age; it seems to me you have no regard for standards of excellence in the profession. Why would you want women to be prostitutes in a trade rife with mediocrity — a state of affairs sure to obtain if you have your way and they can’t even get a summer job before their 18th birthday?
Less:
“Bethany and rasquel, I’m simply stating that if your teens/adolescents want to do something, they will.”
But that’s not really the answer to any of the important questions. It’s a statement of the obvious that doesn’t do the heavy lifting of addressing policy. And as noted in my immediately prior post, you’re not doing much heavy lifting when it comes to explaining why you think policies should be some particular way. Your entire political viewpoint seems to reduce to “people are gonna do whatever the hell they want — so let ’em.” Except, of course, that you’re gratuitously throwing out ages and situations where you happen, for mysterious reasons no one here will be able to divine, to vary from that edict.
Less, your viewpoints really don’t cohere. You have a very loose collection of ideas about how things should be. I suspect this is on account of a real lack of commitment to any of them. You’re not so much a possesser of convictions as you are a person who hates it when others have convictions. You don’t think much about public policy because, as I read in your comments, most of your concern is just what you don’t mind. You use a lot of like locutions, “I don’t care if,” and so forth.
I don’t think the issue is your personal cares. The issue is what makes for the common weal. And if the common weal is best served by something you’re indifferent to, fine. If it’s best served by something you get indignant about, that’s even better. It would at least let folks here see some real conviction.
Less, think “coherence” in your views.
Less:
“Mary, sometimes parents honestly do not understand. If you have a child who has a different religious outlook, a different view of sex, a different stance on abortion or contraceptives, should they be forced to conform with parental standards? It’d be wonderful if parents and children always agreed on these things, but they don’t. Should they be made to?”
Some parents are very controlling. At the other end of the spectrum, some parents aren’t parents at all — the kids run the show.
In between is wisdom where parental experience coupled with a sane world view is in play. For example, should children be forced to wear seat belts, even if the law doesn’t require it? Sure. “If you want to ride in this car, put it on.” That can easily be defended on the grounds of wisdom. A standard first-time kid response might be an idiotic “it’s my body” approach, which of course invites the answer “what the deuce do you learn in physics, boy? some idiot T-bones us and you’re body become a projectile inside MY vehicle, which is occupied by other people you should care enough about to not talk so stupidly. Now put the seat belt on or walk to school.”
I don’t think, Less, that you’re familiar with the extent to which a parent is constantly thinking in terms of both liberty and constraint on kids who lack fundamental wisdom like that. Are parents perfect? No. But you seem to imagine that the solution to imperfect parental judgment is to empower those whose judgment is far worse.
Think about it for all of two seconds, Less. In 15-25 years, many of the adolescents you’re talking about will, themselves, have adolescents. The upshot of your logic is that in those intervening years, these youths will have gained no wisdom sufficient to justify the hegemony of parental judgment over adolescent foolishness. Adolescent autonomy is trump simply because autonomy is paramount.
But Less, the entire history of civilization argues that anarchy — I mean, let’s call it by name — is self-destructive. It’s basically cancer: radical autonomy that is clueless about the extent to which it depends on its host. And adolescents more than anyone I know are clueless about the extent to which they ACTUALLY depend on their parents, regardless of the extent to which they imagine their decisions should be independent of parental input or veto.
Less, everything you argue is basically “kids will be kids, so give up and let ’em do what they want.” Yeah. Lord of the Flies.
Why in the name of little green apples should any parent concerned with the public good rub their chin even once when hearing such nonsense from a childless rube?
Less:
“Rasquel, I can think of no situation where a parent wouldn’t eventually figure it out anyway, as medical bills are fairly expensive.”
So are heroin habits.
Do you therefore think children should be allowed to purchase heroin at their discretion, so long as:
“…the kid can pay for it by his/her self”?
What about parents whose inferential abilities are compromised by mental disorders? Seems to me that as public policy, your laissez faire approach leaves them with less information about their legal dependents’ incurring of fiscal obligations — obligations they, the parents, are liable for in the case that thus-liberated youth end up with too-expensive medical complications of the affordable procedures they take it upon themselves to obtain.
You’re not so much a possesser of convictions as you are a person who hates it when others have convictions.
Well, doesn’t that just sum it up.
Great posts, Rasqual.
I am new to this site, but have read enough of Less to conclude she is HeartLess, CareLess and ThoughtLess YIKES!!!!!!! I guess the name is fitting. Scary.
CLARIFICATION ::::
many were no doubt spouting: yet again I was speaking mere gibberish when I said such things as mind, soul, thought, rights, and on and on were immaterial. I know there are too many who believe solely in materialism. To them I will ask about the immaterial part of their concrete universe.
Please contemplate: what is space … or distance if not immaterial? What then about time … ??? And speed … one immaterial reality [distance] divided by yet another immaterial reality [time]. Then there is acceleration which is [distance]/[time X time]. And I even haven’t touched the immaterial reality of energy.
Sandy: Or Less is a bemused troll.
I think people of good will like to give trolls the benefit of the doubt, and trolls frequently ride the fence where it’s not so clear whether they’re sincere. The problem is when in real life some sincere people are indistinguishable from trolls!
John: I think you mean non-material. It’s only in some conversations that they’re immaterial.
:-P
Matter is to space as change is to time.
Which is another way of saying that moth and rust corrupt.
;-)
Hi rasqual,
I really do not at all understand your words. However, the word ‘immaterial’ is probably the right word because even solid objects have these as part of their own make-up and are not separate realities. Inanimate objects do move (whole galaxies spin) … and they do not require an observer to do so.
There are non-material things too … like space … and warps in space; or force and potential (in physics/electricity); magnetism, gravity … on and on.
I am new to this site, but have read enough of Less to conclude she is HeartLess, CareLess and ThoughtLess YIKES!!!!!!! I guess the name is fitting. Scary.
Ask yourself, Sandy, how you represent the pro-life side when you make comments such as you do. When you fling insults about without concern or care, what does that say about you, about the values you supposedly represent?
Less,you have a lot of nerve criticizing anyone! After all, you condone incest and pedophillia. You said, “As long as it doesn’t concern me, I don’t care what people do in the bedroom.” Your comments are disturbing.
Less,
Your response to my comment was completely predictable. I just should have added it on after my comment for you to save you time.
Less,
I was merely making an observation of your attitude and opinions. My so called insults were flung with great care and concern.
It is interesting that you question my values as a pro-life supporter when you support death to innocents whether that be through abortion, incest or pedophillia which is also a death to the innocent.
After all, you condone incest and pedophillia.
Prove where I said I’m okay with pedophillia. I have quite frequently said the exact opposite.
Sandy, an insult is still an insult, and using them in debate is quite childish. I have never seen any proof the consnesual incest has harmed anyone; if such proof exists and I’m missing it, than of course it should be illegal. Pedophillia very clearly harms the child, and should certainly be illegal as well: there is no question in my mind about that, and there never has been. I don’t know whre you’re getting otherwise, unless you’re basing your statements on Heather, which would be unwise.
Pedophillia harms the child, and thus should be illegal.
After this comment you made, Less, I asked you this:
“Really, Less? Well, what if the child consents to it? What if a 8 year old boy consents to the man defiling him?”
You said:
“I have a moral standard”
I asked “What do you base your moral standards on?
I would like to have an answer to these questions.
Also, I’d like you to note that you have proven you are not pro-choice, as you said you would condone the forced sterility or abortion of an incestual couple who wanted to keep their baby. You would allow a brother and sister to have sex, but would not allow them to have a baby. Twisted.
Less, you have said a lot of things that don’t add up. What is the problem? You said that you don’t ever want children. I suggested that you have a tubal ligation. You said “Well, I might change my mind.” You made an unbelievable comment about incest. This could also include pedophilia. As we have seen in some other stories here, the father was raping and even impregnated his underage daughter. What 65 year old father is going to get consent for sex from his 30 year old daughter? Incest is usually about victimization and manipulation. So,the victims are usually minors. Then whenever I bring this up to you, you respond with, “You aren’t a Christian.” and so on. Shame,shame,shame on me.
Prove where I said I’m okay with pedophillia.
I have quite frequently said the exact opposite.
Less,
I guess the following comments you made lead me to believe that pedophillia was ok in your book. “Parents do not deserve any more right over their children’s bodies than anyone else. They do not own their children. If a parent has fostered an open relationship with their child, than as I said, they will already know what is going on. If they do not have that sort of relationship, than there is likely a reason for it.”
“Of course parents should be concerned with their children, and they do have the right to protect them from harm, but not when it involves the child giving up her right to her own reproductive health.”
“Jill, no, I would not report a pregnant 12 year old unless I talked to her, at length, and got her permission first. And I’d tend to think that the vast majority of children are not as comfortable talking to their parents as you’d like to think: they’re certainly not the minority. In most cases, it is because of a differing viewpoints.”
Any child who comes into a clinic pregnant or asking for birth control could be the victim of a pedophile. The pedophile could be a relative, neighbor, family friend, coach, teacher or older sibling of a friend. These people are masters of manipulation and coersion. They can intimidate children into lying. By not including the parents on the situation, you would be an accomplice to pedophillia. A twelve year old girl could be covering up abuse out of fear of the pedophile, not out of fear of her parents.
Sandy, Thank you!