God to Rudy?
From last night’s Republican presidential candidate debate on CNN, the funniest part of which was when Rudy’s colleagues backed away from him….
Jun.06, 2007 8:38 am |
Political anti-life bias |
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ HAS SPOKEN!!!!
The question is, is anybody listening?
I commend Romney for stepping up to the plate. I like the fact that he makes no apologies!!
You have to respect Giuliani in a way–even if you are pro-life. He is not backing down. Many politicians (cough*JohnKerry*cough) would flipflop flipflop all over the place, trying to please people.
Picture this, pro-lifers. Suppose there’s a Democrat candidate–Joe Schmoe. Mr. Schmoe is, you know, relatively liberal–nothing extreme, but he’s definitely on the political left. Imagine that alllll the other Democrat candidates were pro-choice, except Mr. Schmoe. Mr. Schmoe is pro-life. And even though the Democrats are shredding him to pieces, he stands his ground. He would probably be the Democrat candidate you would vote for … were you forced to vote for a Democrat.
Am I wrong?
I know I would have respect for Mr. Schmoe as a politician. I wouldn’t vote for him, but I would be rather impressed that he was standing his ground.
You see what I mean?
Leah, instead of flipflopping, he’s just talking out both sides of his mouth. I think the latter is worse.
Also, The lightening bit was hillarious. I think would be a bit frightened if it happened to me. Did anyone else get zapped?
Actually, his is a very common belief.
It’s a very common, but very deceitful stance If you feel something is wrong, you must have some sort of reason why you feel it is wrong. Does anyone who holds this stance ever own up to “why” they feel abortion is wrong?
If it’s not killing a baby, why is it wrong? If I didn’t feel it killed a baby, I would not see anything wrong with it.
I think people who hold this position think that it is more irresponsible than anything else (except in instances of rape or if the mother’s health is in danger)
life, I meant life, but also health
Why do these guys dance around the abortion issue? Are they afraid of loosing because the majority is pro choice? Do they want to appease both sides so they will win? What is it? Why not just come out and say that you are one or the other?
I think people who hold this position think that it is more irresponsible than anything else (except in instances of rape or if the mother’s health is in danger)
Yes, but again, why is it irresponsible?
Bleah, Guiliani is crazy. He’s STILL on a power trip from Sept. 11. Even though he handled it terribly. His poor judgement exposed tons of citizens to asbestos poisoning. Number of homeless people in NYC? Rose 19% during his time in office. Eesh.
I’m sticking with my main man Obama. Whoo!
I held the personally pro-life, politically pro-choice view and it had nothing to do with responsibility
I just thought “well, I think abortion is immoral, but who am I to force my beliefs on others”. Basically I bought into pro-“choice” rhetoric hook, line, and sinker.
I meant that a lot of the people who casually oppose abortion do so because they believe that some women use it as a form of birth control, instead of having responsible safe sex they are being reckless and getting abortions to “clean up thier mess”
But then I do agree that its also that they don’t want to force their beliefs on people, and also that they don’t want the government to force thier beliefs onto people when not everyone in America holds the same beliefs.
Lauren, I hope you are okay. Yes, I also bought into it. I used to tell women “I would never have an abortion, but if you want one it’s your choice.” I thought that was the only acceptable thing TO say. Then when I began to educate myself on abortion and abortionists, I just couldn’t say that anymore!
JK, I do know quite a few that have used it as a means of B/C. It disgusts me. Abortion has turned a lot of women into reproductive slobs. Point blank! After abortion #10, have you ever heard of a rubber lady?? I know plenty of women that knew better!!! They weren’t stupid!
I meant that a lot of the people who casually oppose abortion do so because they believe that some women use it as a form of birth control, instead of having responsible safe sex they are being reckless and getting abortions to “clean up thier mess”
I understand what you’re saying… but I’m still confused. Why would it be reckless to have abortions as a form of birth control? Why should it be considered any different than any other type of birth control?
Erin: “Bleah, Guiliani is crazy. He’s STILL on a power trip from Sept. 11. Even though he handled it terribly. His poor judgement exposed tons of citizens to asbestos poisoning. Number of homeless people in NYC? Rose 19% during his time in office. Eesh.”
you’ve gut to be kidding me Rae? Rudy did a fantastic job cleaning up crime in NYC (ask any new-yorker), my brother has lived their for 20 years. Plus, he did a great job after 9/11.
It’s too bad Rudy is Pro-choice, because I like the man. I’ll bet he may be regretting that position now… or at least I hope he is.
I= not Rae.
And have you seen how he ‘cleaned up crime’, jasper?
Complaints of police abuse JUMPED during his time in office. His workfare concept has forced students out of schools. He completely ignored the fact that unionized workers have the right to strike and jailed/fined transit workers for WALKING. Since Dec. 31st of 2001, there have been 34 cases of Guiliani’s administration being charged with violating the first amendment.
oh Erin, you have a lot to learn….
As Mayor, Rudy Giuliani has returned accountability to City government and improved the quality of life for all New Yorkers. Under his leadership, overall crime is down 57%, murder has been reduced 65%, and New York City – once infamous around the world for its dangerous streets – has been recognized by the F.B.I. as the safest large city in America for the past five years.
New York City’s law enforcement strategies have become models for other cities around the world
http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/rwg/html/bio.html
It’s just back to the beginning, the pro-life personally but pro-“choice” politically is like saying “it’s not for me to drive drunk and kill someone but if you want to do that, it’s your “choice” Give me a break! Buck up Rudy!!
If you want to drive drunk it’s irresponsible and you could kill someone, pay the price. If you want to have sex, you might get pregnant, pay the price for 9 months than give the baby up for adoption, otherwise you kill and you should pay the price. It’s really quite simple. “pro-choicers” just like to complicate to try to make it sound different than it really is.
*headdesk*
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT NEW YORK TO SAY ABOUT ITSELF?
“Oh, we are dirty and crime ridden. But you should come here anyway!”
Bethany,
I think its because using birth control is something you do to not get pregnant, waiting until you are already pregnant shows a lack of maturity or responsibility on your part; that you didn’t know enough to protect yourself in the first place.
I know you guys have said countless times how envasive and emotionally draining having an abortion can be. Taking a pill, wearing a patch, getting a shot, making your boyfriend wear a condom is much less envasive and emotionally draining than having to make the decision and then going through with the abortion.
Jasper –
It’s not fair to say all New Yorker’s loved Giuliani. I have met a couple who can’t stand the guy.
And I am not sure who said this, but why do you think he did a terrible job after 9/11? Just curious to the opinion…
Erin,
Are they lying? do the research yourself, even Rudy critics agree that he cleaned up NYC.
Since this is a pro-life blog; Erin would you and Dan make the same decision today if you had to do it all over again?
I think comparing him to Pontius Pilate was brilliant! I believe what you are doing is wrong, but I won’t stop you. I wash my hands!
What else will he be willing to “wash his hands” of? He might find that he needs to buy stock in Irish Spring!
good one mk!!
Midnite- he left lower Manhatten open after the 9/11 attacks- it subjected thousands of people to asbestos poisoning. Also, he moved the Office of Emergency Mangement INTO the WTC- even though it was a known terror target. And he asked for a 3-month extension of his term. Which is always bad. Taking away his hero-status, he has nothing.
luv, I like the drunk driving comparison!
I’m curious how you feel about smoking in public places Erin?
4ooo children will be slaughtered today. Another 4000 tomorrow. Someone must stop the maddness!!
Yes jasper. Piu non posso- why are you bringing it up? I thought we were discussing politics.
luv- as a smoker, I think I have the right to smoke wherever, as long as I am courteous about it. I don’t smoke near children and I ask adults whether they mind before I smoke. I support no smoking in restaurants, but think that the majority of bars should be a smoking environment.
There was another case of a girl in Florida who comitted infanticide. How do you guys feel that a girl who commits a crime like this should be punished?
i ask because i don’t see the difference between asbestos and cig. smoke. We have to breath secondhand smoke. i don’t think
oops… I don’t thiink that we should have to breath in any more cig. smoke than we should have to breath asbestos.
in your defense a little bit, I’m glad you ask people before you smoke, most people don’t.
I think its because using birth control is something you do to not get pregnant, waiting until you are already pregnant shows a lack of maturity or responsibility on your part; that you didn’t know enough to protect yourself in the first place.
I know you guys have said countless times how envasive and emotionally draining having an abortion can be. Taking a pill, wearing a patch, getting a shot, making your boyfriend wear a condom is much less envasive and emotionally draining than having to make the decision and then going through with the abortion.
I completely agree that abortion is invasive and emotionally draining…however, pro-choice advocates do not admit this. If they did, it would beg yet another question: WHY is it emotionally draining? It’s supposed to be such a simple, quick, and painless procedure, which most women feel relief afterwards. How could it simultaneously be relieving, and emotionally draining? Which is it? If it’s emotionally draining, then why don’t the many who take the pro-choice “I oppose it but wouldn’t stop it” stance, start organizations to help women who have suffered the emotional consequences of abortion, like the pro-life people do?
Also, why does it matter if it is more invasive or not? How does this make it immoral?
By the way, Do *you* personally believe abortion is an invasive procedure, emotionally draining, psychologically damaging, and potentially physically hazardous to women? Just curious.
From a pro-choice standpoint, I still can’t see how it could be simultaneously immoral, something that one hates and despises, yet one would support it being a right, despite this. Doesn’t really make sense to me. See what I mean?
:P Courteous smoking would fix basically every second-hand smoke problem.
I am a curteous smoker as well. I still dont understand the no smoking in bars (thank goodness that hasnt been passed here yet), but I mean drinking and smoking just go together..
His spontaneous response showed that he is, indeed, dealing with some guilt on this topic. I think Guiliani’s hemmed in politically and knows better morally. That should tell us all we need to know about him. He’s not who we need to run the country.
Walking down the street in the wide open air, someone walking past blows smoke in my face. Don’t know if they think about it or what but it’s so annoying. I assume you basically don’t ever smoke in public?
I only smoke when I have a drink. My state just passed that law. I really don’t go to the bar much anymore.
I won’t vote for Guiliani based on his lack of morality. I like to see basic morality leading our country. Nobody is going to do EVERYTHING right, or the way I think it should be done, but basic morality is what I vote for.
Not on busy streets etc, no.
luv, I agree with that! Abortion is a HUGE issue for me. I’m glad that Bush is trying to do something about it.
I believe that its an envasive procedure, but so are other elective procedures like gastric bi-pass, plastic surgery, laser eye surgery, etc.
I believe that, for some women at least, it is a very hard, emotionally draining, decision. Some women struggle hard with this decision, morally and emotionally. And if it comes to a situation where they have to pick between saving their own life and giving birth (and probably dying in the process) it is an extremely difficult decision.
I don’t think that I hate or despise all abortion, I just hate it that some women give pro-choicers a bad name by flippantly getting abortion after abortion instead of buckling down and learning safe sex practices. Thats why some of you think we are heartless, cold-blooded baby killers.
To put it in another way, I don’t think the government should tell people what they can and cannot do, even if I do think its crazy or potentially hazardous. Like sky diving or base jumping or smoking, or polar bear swimming; I can’t justify requiring that no one do these things, just because I don’t or would never do.
Luv, the only place where I smoke on a public area is at the UAB campus, and there are designated smoking areas, so it’s all smokers that I am around.
As I have asked before, Let’s just say that we could all agree to keep abortion safe, legal, and RARE. That IS the saying, isn’t it? Do you REALLY think that’s gonna happen? Who is having these abortions? I doubt that there are 4000 cases where the mother’s life was in danger per day.
Thats why I push for a comprehensive sex education. The more people who learn to protect themselves properly, ultimately will lead to less abortions.
Liposuction is an elective procedure. A woman usually opts for a cosmetic procedure to make herself feel more attractive. I had a nose job. However, the difference is that nobody gets killed. If there is a risk in the surgery for myself, then I accept that risk. However, I am not killing another human.
That’s like teaching people how to drive drunk safely.
ROFL @ Jasper saying everyone in NYC loves Giuliani.
Up until September 11th, he got boo’d at Yankees games. His personal life was more of a mess than Clinton’s – he married his cousin for gods sake! And he was certainly not a popular man.
I’ve lived in Brooklyn for 5 years – the crime has not left the city because of Giuliani, the crime left the city because its become gentrified. The crime just went up town in to East Harlem and out to the Bronx and Bed Sty. Just because it left Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn doesn’t mean its gone, its just more concentrated.
And now, thanks to the city’s poor handling of the WTC waste, he is even more unpopular here than ever before, as 9/11 relief workers, including my father, continue to find dark spots on their lungs, cancer diagnoses, asbestos poisioning, and other deadly health complications.
luv, LOL!
No, actually its like teaching people if they are drunk to call a cab or get a friend to take their keys.
mmmmm… if only it was that easy when it comes to sex and pregnancy and killing a baby.
Women always know that they have abortion as a safety net, so a lot of them throw caution to the wind. I have literally had women tell me “If I get pregnant, I’ll have an abortion.” That is so irresponsible and unacceptable. That’s CHOICE for ya.
so what should the punishment be for those that drive drunk and kill someone?
being pro-choice and wanting more sex ed. is like saying that it’s to bad that people get killed in drunk driving accidents but we shouldn’t outlaw it, we just need more alcohol education.
I feel that abortion has just turned into this great big pick and choose thing. If I choose to have 10 abortions, it’s my choice! If I want to terminate my pregnancy in it’s 8th month, well that’s also my choice. Then they quip “Get your laws out of my body.” Were you taking care of that body to begin with? I thought your body was supposed to be your temple.We have no right to terminate a human life when we so desire.
the funny thing is that they want the government to stay “out of their bodies” but they want government health care.
In my state they are really coming down hard on drunk drivers. I’ve noticed a change in people. Some have stopped drinking, some will walk to the bars, a lot of them are calling cabs. I’ll bet the same things would happen if abortion was illegal.
I have a question. I want to know how women were punished when abortion was illegal. If they were caught, what did the law DO to them?
By making abortion illegal it is not taking away the choice of having sex or not, it is not even saying you can’t have an abortion, you have the CHOICE! You would simply have to pay a price for that choice. What is so bad about that?
luv, Do you know how women were punished back when abortions were criminal. Were they put in prison? I have never heard of any of them being punished by the law.
I have read about 2 celebs. that both had illegal abortions. They aren’t behind bars. They both made their stories public. One of them is an actress, and the other is a journalist.
Luv: So pregnancy is now a consequence/punishment for having sex?
Also, I dont want the Gov “in my body” and I DO NOT want Government Health Care.
Heather – women weren’t ever legally punished, only the practitioners.
Heather – women weren’t ever legally punished, only the practitioners.
sorry for the double post
oh – and thats only the in US of course. Not true elsewhere.
Thanks Amanda. Why weren’t the women punished? They knew it was illegal. I just googled and found 5 more. All famous women.
Because of the way the law was written. It was never illegal to HAVE an abortion. It was illegal in some states to PERFORM an abortion.
Which is why women who went to Canada or Indian Reservations or to states where it was legal could not be punished. They had an abortion legally, by a technicality.
Whoopi Goldberg gave herself an abortion with a coat hanger. She is the practitioner in that case.
“Luv: So pregnancy is now a consequence/punishment for having sex?”
no, pregnancy is a result just like getting drunk is the of drinking too much alcohol.
the consequence of having an abortion should be a punishment, just like any other form of killing is in our country.
sorry i didn’t answer your question earlier heather, i stepped away for awhile, but I don’t know the answer.
That will never happen Luv. Even if abortion is made illegal again, it will still be based on performing it, not having it. You can’t punish a woman for allowing a doctor to perform an abortion, because unless she’s doing it to herself, she isnt killing anything.
LOL
First time I saw that incident (didn’t see the debate).
That crackling was perfectly timed. Funny stuff.
Amanda:
“You can’t punish a woman for allowing a doctor to perform an abortion, because unless she’s doing it to herself, she isnt killing anything.”
If she pays for it . . .
So if I hire a hit man to kill someone, “they can’t punish me because unless . . .”
?
Amanda, the doctor is a hitman, hired by the mother to kill the baby. There is a word for it, someone help me!
That’s somewhat like someone hiring a hit man. They will pay someone else to do the killing. Both are just as guilty if you ask me.
hee hee good one heather! :)
luv, we were writing @ the same time.
A paid assassin?
They could be charged with a crime, but certainly not murder. You can’t be charged with murder unless you’ve illegaly killed someone. If you have an abortion somewhere where its legal, you haven’t illegally killed anything, so its not considered murder.
And if you have an abortion somewhere where it is NOT legal, you could be charged with conspiring to commit – but you can’t be charged with murder/killing unless you actually did it with your own hands.
Deuteronomy 27;25 Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.
Kudos to Amanda for correctly explaining who abortion laws targeted when abortion was illegal (the abortionist, not the mother), and why.
The same laws and logic would hold true if abortion were made illegal again.
I heard that many of these “back ally” abortionists were never caught. True? Untrue? Anybody know?
as long as the punishment was hard enough I think baby killing would happen a whole lot less if the mother was charged with conspiring.
Yes, let’s go back to those days. Those scum bag abortionists should be charged. They are like serial killers.
and my guess is that doctors who perform abortions wouldn’t be advertising it! PP might just be suggesting adoption more! PP is like the therapist last night on law & order SVU! she was charged with something!
Heather –
There was a group in the 50s and 60s called JANE that originally formed in Chicago. It was made up of doctors, midwives, clergy, nuns, and activists who set up an underground railroad of sorts for women to access safer abortions. They operated for years, and I dont think anyone involved was ever charged.
As for the real “back alley” abortions that were NOT performed by doctors or midwives, it was nearly impossible to track them down – and just as many pro lifers participate in wanting to catch people who commit clinic violence, pro choice activists were very adament about tracking down those who performed unsafe abortions. The fact is, the whole coathanger in a back room thing was not the most common way – most often, a woman would just be given a toxic drug cocktail, and its hard to find evidence in cases like that.
luv, I agree. Especially those repeat offenders. 7-8-20 abortions. Jill, do you know if there is a limit on the # of abortions that an abortionist will do on one woman? I know I’m full of questions today, but they are coming to mind.
Amanda, thanks for answering my questions. Do you know the answer to my question as to how many abortions will an abortionist do on one woman? Will they ever tell a woman “NO!!”
Heather – legally there is no limit. But I’ve heard of many cases of doctors refusing to do more than 2. One of the girls in my group had 2, and when the doctor refused to perform a 3rd, she went to a Haitian “witch doctor” and had her do it. She told me if she got pregnant again, she’d go back to the witch doctor, because it was “cheaper and more natural”.
it’s sad Amanda that people did that and would do it but that’s crazy to make something wrong legal just so people won’t hurt themselves doing it. People will always do things to themselves or to others that is wrong, making it legal doesn’t solve the problem. Nothing completely solves the problem, it jus deters many from doing the wrong.
I have heard/read some stories that the abortionist will actually get p***ed off if a woman keeps on returning for abortions.
why? because he doesn’t like to kill for someone more than once but he will do it for many others once.
what’s the difference?
Like he is suddenly getting a conscience.
Well, Heather – its incredibly frustrating. You see these teen girls, and they come in scared and crying and hysterical and thinking their lives are over, and regardless of what they decide to do about that particular unwanted pregnancy, we try so hard to make sure they know what behaviors got them in to this situation and what they can do to keep it from happening again. So when they come in a year later in the same state, saying “oh god, how could this happen?!” You just want to scream YOU KNOW HOW THIS HAPPENED!!!!! … but you can’t. There is nothing more frustrating than knowing a girl knows how to prevent pregnancy but chooses not to. The problem is, not all girls do know – but no girl walks out of the program I intern for not knowing how to not get pregnant… so for me, seeing them come back again is infuriating.
the consequence of having an abortion should be a punishment, just like any other form of killing is in our country.
Luv: So self defense and war killings should be punished now? Interesting!!
Amanda, I know where you work, and I can understand your frustration. I feel it too. The difference is that I see grown women doing it. I see them doing it OFTEN! I had words with a woman I knew who had 7 abortions. She p***ed me off by starting it. So, I threw the 7 abortions in her face. She continued to justify what she had done. You should have heard her lame excuses. She was a slob!
No Luv, it has more to do with the fact that any responsible OBGYN is going to have a very serious conversation with a woman who has an abortion about how to prevent unwanted pregnancy. A lot of times, especially with teens, they’ll offer to give them the Depo Provera shot right then and there. So when they come back a year later, its frustrating. Any time someone trying to help you gives you advice and you don’t take it, its frustrating.
And its a serious misconception that any OBGYN who performs abortions LIKES to be doing it. An OBGYN who works at PP makes the same amount of money whether they spend the entire day doing pelvic exams and prental checkups or performing abortions – and trust me, they’d much rather be doing the pelvic exams and prenatal checkups.
hitman may not like their job either amanda, that doesn’t make it right! Even if they hate their job, it doesn’t matter. I might hate getting drunk and driving and killing someone but I should still be punished for doing it!!
I’m sure that the majority of women who get abortions know how it happened!
Going back to Whoopi Goldberg for a minute. She gave herself an abortion with a coat hanger. Why wasn’t she punished? From what I’ve read, she had at least 2 or 3 more abortions after the one she did herself. I don’t expect an answer to this. I just thought I’d throw it out there. I’m sure she knew how babies were made.
Luv, You CANT punish someone if NO crime has been committed.
Heather – thats not really a punishable crime. All she has to do is say “no, I made that up”. There is no evidence, no witnesses, etc. And since under the current laws, a fetus is not considered a person, she didnt kill anyone or anything.
*illegally* kill anyone or anything is what I meant to say.
She claims to have done it in the middle of central park. Anyone who would make that story up has got to be mentally unstable.
Amanda: “An OBGYN who works at PP makes the same amount of money whether they spend the entire day doing pelvic exams and prental checkups or performing abortions – and trust me, they’d much rather be doing the pelvic exams and prenatal checkups.”
why, what’s so wrong with abortion? It’s legal, it’s a woman’s right to choose? I would like to know WHY exactly don’t they like doing them.
yes all but we were talking about why is should be illegal! Like drunk driving! remember!? Now you two are back to the old it’s legal so it’s right.
If they made drunk driving and killing someone legal then would you fight it or just go along because it was now the law?
Heather – Im not sure whats more mentally unstable though – making that up, or giving yourself an abortion with a coat hanger in a park when you’re in a state where abortion was 100% legal…
Either way…uhhhgggg
ok, just googled Whoopi. This is why she always waves the coat hanger at the marches. It all checks out. That would be one sick way to draw attention to yourself [making up a story like that]
jasper, I have read about this sort of thing. The abortionist just comes out and says it like it is. Abortionist Warren Hern said ” I kill babies for a living.” Now, of course they aren’t going to tell the truth to some woman flat on her back with her feet in stirrups and ready to roll. That would be traumatizing!! However, they will admit this to interviewers. I’m sure they tell the women “Not to worry.” “We’ll remove that tissue.”
Luv, I have never said if something was legal, it was right. Please don’t put words in my mouth. But since it is legal, a crime has not been committed and therefore, a punishment can not be given. I am talking about the legal standpoint, not a moral one.
Yes midnite, what we are discussing is why it is not illegal when other like crimes are.
Not all other “like” crimes are. Self defense and killings in war time are not illegal, not are they punishable by the law.
Amanda, one last thing and I will drop it. Whoopi claims that she gave herself an abortion at the age of 14 when it was illegal. In the middle of Central Park. Whoopi claims it’s true, but I smell a rat. Anyway, that’s her story and she’s stickin to it.
so do you think war is ok midnite?
in war we are protecting our country or even other innocent people in their country from being killed. That is the goal. Abortion is not about protecting anyone from death, almost all abortion is about a woman’s “right” to kill her baby.
Luv: Did I ever say war was ok? I dont remember that comming out of my mouth.
“so do you think war is ok midnite?”
i asked, i didn’t say that you answered.
Amanda,
Any time someone trying to help you gives you advice and you don’t take it, its frustrating.
Don’t we it!
And its a serious misconception that any OBGYN who performs abortions LIKES to be doing it. An OBGYN who works at PP makes the same amount of money whether they spend the entire day doing pelvic exams and prental checkups or performing abortions – and trust me, they’d much rather be doing the pelvic exams and prenatal checkups.
We keep asking you guys why this is. If abortion is not wrong, then what difference does it make if you perform hundreds of them on the same woman. If you don’t have the right to tell her what to do with her body the first time, why should you have the right on the hundreth time?
If abortion is wrong, then even one abortion is unacceptable.
We just don’t get it. It’s like you want to appear reasonable and moral. So is abortion wrong, right, moral, immoral or only wrong and immoral sometimes?
VAAAAALLLL…I’m so confused!
obviously that should be: Don’t we know it!
midnite,
The point luv is making is that abortion is taking an innocent life and should be illegal while war and self defense are protecting innocent life and should be legal.
Heather – but first trimester abortion was legal in New York even before Roe, so that doesnt make sense… Im not doubting you, just that story.
Oh, I didn’t know that. So, that story wouldn’t add up. Anyway, if you Google Whoopi Goldberg, she admits that she did perform an abortion on herself @ age 14. She admits to about 2 or 3 more “legal” abortions after that. I don’t know why she would want to make up a story like that, and then make it public. very puzzling
MK – Think of it this way. When a severely obese person has a lap band put on, many times they do not follow the diet properly, and need to have the lap band expanded or removed because of the possibility of complications from not eating properly after the procedure. This would be because they did not listen to their doctor. Chances are, if they go back to the same doctor a second or third time, he/she is not going to want to perform a surgical procedure on someone who has proven that they cannot follow his advice. Surgery should always be a last resort – whether its abortion, gastric bypass, a lap band, a kidney transplant, etc. There have been cases of doctors refusing to perform a SECOND liver transplant on someone because they went right out and drank again.
Perhaps it was a parental consent thing?
OKAY, I have another question. When did abortion become legal in the USA?? Now I’m confused.
in war we are protecting our country or even other innocent people in their country from being killed.
Or looking for oil, attempting to spread our political ideals, expressing our unfortunate colonialistic ideals
Html mix up, feel free to ignore.
To add to what was said above; between MK and Amanda…. If you seek out an abortion, don’t they have to get a history of how many abortions you have already had? I’m sure women lie, but I want to know how they get 10, 11, 13 abortions. Even if they went back a forth time, does the abortionist turn them away? Does he/she REALLY say NO?
Heather – thats a possibility, either that or she couldnt get the money together. I know the city didnt have social work programs back then the way they do now to help girls that young out with whatever they decided to do.
Abortion was a state by state legislative decision until Roe V Wade. The Roe decision stated that it was unconstitutional for a state to make abortion illegal, so prior to that, many states had banned abortion, and many had not… but most had limitations, like only first trimester abortions were legal, or only in cases of rape, etc.
Less,
I believe these are called “war crimes” and with good reason.
so if Roe V Wade is overturned, it would NOT make abortion illegal. It would make it legal for individual states to make it illegal in that particular state. Based on Gallup polls, if it came downn to a ballot vote, no state would ban it completely, about 25 states would ban it with rape/incest/health exceptions, and the other 25 would keep first trimester abortions legal on demand. I wish I could find the website where it was broken down state by state… but I know it was like 0.5% of overall respondents who would support a total abortion ban in their state, while the rest were split pretty evenly between on demand and rape/incest/health exceptions.
As far as medical history goes, thats something thats going to change in the near future. There is technology now that allows paper charting to be eliminated. You’d basically have your entire medical history stored on a credit card type of deal so that you couldnt lie or forget medical history. But right now, if you dont divulge information, the HIPAA regulations prevent a doctor from accessing your records without your consent. It will be VERY interesting to see how HIPAA and the e-records technology work out with one another.
Amanda,
That analogy would work except that your argument for making abortion legal in the first place is that it is a “right”. No one has the “right” to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.
So by your definition, not mine, no matter how many times a woman gets an abortion, it is her choice and there is nothing wrong with it.
Banding an obese person over and over is likely to cause serious harm to the woman eventually, but again, according to your own arguments, multiple abortions are not harmful.
I think a better analogy would be multiple ear piercings. If abortion is not morally wrong, then get as many as you want. No harm, no foul. Just like pierced ears. There is nothing wrong with it so feel free to pierce over and over.
Amanda,
Also an obese person consented to her obesity by overeating. A woman with an unwanted pregnancy, also by your own argument, did not consent to her pregnancy. It just happened. Remember?
MK, what do you think about my question? Do you think an abortionist would turn a woman away after her 5th abortion?
Turning it over to states…
The states that keep it legal, would change according to what the constituents want. So we really won’t know for a few years after it is overturned. Time will tell.
Heather,
I don’t know. I guess it would depend on who the abortionist is. I would think (hope) that a reputable doctor working out of a “real” office or hospital would, but Tiller would just count the money…
“So by your definition, not mine, no matter how many times a woman gets an abortion, it is her choice and there is nothing wrong with it. ”
It is her choice. Its certainly not anything Id reccomend or suggest, but it is her choice. Its also the doctors choice to refuse to see her. Just as its a doctors choice whether or not to perform abortions at all.
and I have never said MULTIPLE abortions are not harmful. ANY type of surgery is risky, and the more you have it, the more risk you’re taking. I’ve said over and over again it should be a last resort. Just because I dont buy in to the propaganda that having an abortion destroys the cervix and leads to premature birth doesnt mean I dont acknowledge having ANY type of surgery repeatedly isn’t going to increase risk.
I agree. Knowing one woman that had 7, and knowing another who had 9, I don’t imagine much turning away. The gal that had 7 had to have a hysterectomy. SOMG doesn’t think that it was “abortion overload” related. She was told by the hospital that it WAS from all of the abortions. What doctor would keep doing this procedure knowing the damage it could cause??
Amanda,
What about abortions that don’t require surgery?
According to Smaug, vacuum suction abortions aren’t surgical either. So are you all right with a woman having 10 or 15 of them?
But there’s nothing morally wrong with being obese either, MK. And ear piercings aren’t quiiiite as invasive.
Leah,
Amandas argument was that it was physically unsafe to do repeat bands on a woman that was noncompliant.
She then said that multiple surgical abortions pose the same threat.
I’m asking how she feels about non-surgical abortions.
And in the Catholic church there is something wrong with being morbidly obese…(barring a physical/hormonal etc reason), it’s called the sin of gluttony.
Leah,
I would say ear piercings (and especially tongue, genital and nose piercings) are more invasive than RU-486.
“OKAY, I have another question. When did abortion become legal in the USA?? Now I’m confused.”
Heather, I was just skimming and saw your question. I found this site and thought it had a good historical sum-up of abortion law development in the U.S. Hope it helps!
http://www.policyalmanac.org/culture/archive/crs_abortion_overview.shtml
Just to throw this in, piercings generally don’t deal with a specific medical issue. The majority of people who I talk to who have piercings do it for a specific reason.
My nose piercing was not invasive in the slightest: I recently had to have my wisdom teeth removed, and was given high doses of pain medication. The pain medication was far more invasive in the nose piercing, particularly as the medication was synthetic, whereas nose piercings have been around since forever. Genital piercings are also fairly old, particularly in males, and in both sexes genital piercings heal faster than almost any other piercing, due to the constant blood flow and the sterility of the urine.
SH, Thank you so much. I just skimmed it. I have to step out soon, so I will read it in full when I return. I’m not sure if you read what lead me to ask. Short of the Long; Actress Whoopi Goldberg is a staunch pro choice supporter. I have heard her rant and rave many times about how she aborted herself with a hanger @ age 14 in Central Park. Amanda said that abortion was legal then too. So, it made me wonder why Whoopi would have to self abort.
MK – do you mean RU486? Again – it should be a last resort after FAR safer methods of contraception have failed – because a lot of women who use RU 486 still end up needing vacuum aspiration afterwards if some of the placenta remains in the uterus. It also causes cramping and bleeding. Not exactly something anyone would WANT to go through multiple times. There have been no long term studies on its non immediate effects, but ALL medications have side effects… heart disease meds, cancer meds, etc. When it comes to a patients needs, it needs to be about what is the BEST method of treatment. Using birh contol pills, and IUD, condoms, or any method of birth control is preferrable to RU486 simply because they are safer and have fewer side effects.
Okay Amanda,
I’ll play this game…
So if an abortion existed that was in no way harmful to the mother, and in no way invasive and carried no side effects whatsoever, would you be okay with a woman having 20 of them?
Complications from body piercings relate to the body part pierced. Ear cartilage piercings do not heal as quickly as lobe piercings because of the different type of tissue and pressure on the piercing area during sleep.
Tongue piercings initially swell a large amount but heal quickly because of the tongues great blood supply.
Nipple piercings may burrow through some of the milk-producing ducts and cause infection or problems if a woman wishes to breast feed an infant later in her life.
Navel piercings become infected easily because tight-fitting clothes do not allow enough air to circulate and allow moisture to collect around the piercing site. The teen may have healing problems if the selected jewelry is not the correct jewelry for the pierced area. If the jewelry is too thin or too heavy, the body may reject the jewelry and work to expel it like a splinter. If the jewelry is too small in diameter, the jewelry may cut off the blood supply and cause a lot of swelling and pain.
May 10, 2006 – Lip piercing is commonly called a ‘labret.’ People with this type of piercing are more likely to develop receding gums in the front bottom teeth, where the stud of the piercing rubs against the gums. The stud or barbell acts as a mechanical trauma hitting the gums, which eventually causes problems. When gums recede, you can become prone to disease in the future. The recession creeps down the teeth, exposing the root. This makes teeth ultra-sensitive to cold and more susceptible to cavities. If people have an uneven gum line, it’s harder for them to brush and clean their teeth, putting them at risk for plaque deposit, which can cause long-term problems like gingivitis. The longer people wear the piercing, the worse the gum recession is. It can cause the loss of teeth that are otherwise healthy.
HEALTH RISKS: You may have uncontrollable or prolonged bleeding, scarring, keloids or hepatitis B and C. You may also develop tetanus skin allergies to the jewelry, abscesses or boils (collections of pus that can form under your skin at the site of the piercing). You can also have inflammation and/or nerve damage.
Remember, if you’re thinking of donating blood, keep in mind some organizations won’t accept blood donations from anyone who has had a body piercing or tattoo within the last year because both procedures can transmit blood-borne diseases or infections like HIV.
MAKING PIERCING SAFER: When the swelling has gone down after a lip piercing, switch to a smaller barbell — one that is not going to hit your gum or teeth. Use only high-quality jewelry. It’s also a good idea to ask about the types of jewelry the shop offers because some people have allergic reactions to some types of metals. Before you get a piercing, make sure you know if you’re allergic to certain metals or not. About 15 percent of people have nickel allergies. Only non-toxic metals should be used for body piercing like surgical steel, solid 18-karat gold or better, niobium, titanium and platinum. Taking the stud or ring out at nighttime to minimize the irritation is desirable. Good brushing and oral hygiene is always helpful, but there’s no way people can prevent recession if they wear an object that constantly rubs up against their gum line.
BETTER TO BE SAFE! You need to check that the piercing shop is clean and that the person doing the piercing washes his or her hands with a germicidal soap. The person doing the piercing should wear fresh disposable gloves (like those worn at a doctor’s office). He or she should also use disposable or sterilized instruments. The person doing the piercing should not use a piercing gun –they’re not considered to be sterile. Also, the needle used should be new and being used for the first time. The needle should also be disposed of in a special sealed container after the piercing. Seek medical attention at the first sign of infection or skin reaction. This will help to reduce serious complications of body piercing.
Sounds pretty invasive to me!
“So if an abortion existed that was in no way harmful to the mother, and in no way invasive and carried no side effects whatsoever, would you be okay with a woman having 20 of them?”
Would I be okay with it? No, because mistakes happen and birth control fails – but 20 times? Obviously that comes down to a lack of responsibility, or something VERY wrong going on, like a girl being continually raped by someone. But do I think its the governments job to regulate what Amanda or MK think is “okay” when I don’t believe it effects another PERSON? Nope.
What will be really good is when there are some long term studies showing that the Mirena coil (the new IUD) is safe for women who haven’t had children – as it is more effective than other forms of BC and has less chance for human error.
That – along with continuing to improve sex ed, access to social programs, access to well thought out assistance progams like WIC, more comprehensive pre natal care assistance programs, and some SERIOUS paradigm shifts in the way kids are brought up – will decrease abortion rates far more effectively than a legislative ban.
Have you ever had any of these body piercings, MK? I remember you saying something to the affect that you disapproved of your son getting a labret piercing, so I’m betting not. With the exception of my fiance, everyone I know has some sort of body piercing: several is the norm. I am the only one who has had any sort of problems with the piercing, and the problems were due to misinformation and an unfortunate accident the day after the piercing.
What you are reading is the absolute worst case scenario. Most women who get nipple piercings take the piercings out during pregnancy due to the swelling of the tissue around there. Navel piercings are most commonly done by 14 year old girls, alone, because their parents won’t let them do it: of course you’re going to get a high rate of infection. Labret and Monroe piercings can cause problems, which is why the rules you posted above are given to all of those who get pierced.
Also, I had a keloid: one of those aforementioned worst case scenarios. It was a bump around the piercing. It bled a bit and was difficult to get rid of, but it wasn’t painful, didn’t leave a scar, and has sense disappeared without a trace.
Honestly, all the piercings you mentioned have been around for a very long time. I’d rather be pierced up than drugged up.
hehehe…Less… when I was 16 my aunt went with me to a parlor and pretended to be my mom (even though she’s only 15 years older than me-heh) so I could get my bellybutton done. 8 years later its still there – never had a single problem. But the bf wants me to take it out because he says when he sees it, he always gets the image in his mind of accidentally catching it on something. Because he is the biggest worry wort EVER =)
Amanda, Less
what if repeated abortions caused no harm at all to the mother, no matter how many she got. Is it still OK to have many abortions?
Less,
]
Well there you go…
We show you the possible side effects of abortion and you say they are minimal.
We show you the possible side effects of piercing and you say they are minimal.
If you can get as many piercings as you want, why can’t you get as many abortions as you want?
We say women getting multiple abortions is morally wrong. You say no, it’s wrong because it is invasive and dangerous.
We say women getting abortions is invasive and dangerous, and you say it’s not true.
We say if it’s not dangerous, then why not get as many as you want? After all it’s no more dangerous than getting piercings. You say it is more dangerous. We list the dangers of piercings which are about the same as the list of dangers from abortions and you say they are exagerated.
We say then why can’t you get multiple abortions and you say cuz it’s dangerous.
The truth is, deep down, it strikes a moral chord with you and you don’t want to admit it.
Multiple abortions are wrong because they are immoral. Multiple piercings are not immoral. This is the real reason that multiple piercings don’t bother you, but multiple abortions do.
And if multiple abortions are immoral because they show a lack of responsiblity it is because they result in the end of a life. So even one should make you uncomfortable. This is what we mean when we say your conscience has been singed…
MK,
excellent.
Well, I disagree that the effects of abortions OR piercings are “minimal” – just rare, which is different from minimal.
And the more you do something, the more likely you are to encounter those rare side effects.
“And if multiple abortions are immoral because they show a lack of responsiblity it is because they result in the end of a life. So even one should make you uncomfortable. This is what we mean when we say your conscience has been singed…”
I wish you wouldnt keep addressing me like I havent acknowledged a thousand times that abortion is never a desirable outcome. I realize its ending a life, Ive said that a million times. Theres no getting around that. Its alive, and then its dead. Period. Its unfortunate to me because its never and easy decision to make, never a fun one, never a positive thing to have gone through for any woman – but sometimes its just the right thing for them to do. For every woman who regrets her abortion, or any major decision for that matter, theres another woman who will tell you she is certain she made the right choice. So its not for me, or you, or a bunch of rich middle aged men to decide for anyone but ourselves.
I’m sorry Amanda, but with all due respect, how can you acknowledge that this is a living human being in one breath and in the next say that snuffing it out, while difficult, is sometimes the “right thing to do”?
It does not compute.
Is there any other human being that you would say this about?
Bwaha, my next piercing will be my bellybutton. Then will be my ears (several times), and possibly my eyebrow. I’d also like to have more tender areas pierced, but those cost loads of money and more courage than I have right now. I think for right now I’ll stick with my tattoo plots.
I would think after 8 years, the piercing would have healed enough so that it would just stretch a bit, wouldn’t it? I’m curious, though: did it hurt to get it pierced?
Amanda: “Its unfortunate to me because its never and easy decision to make, never a fun one, never a positive thing to have gone through for any woman – but sometimes its just the right thing for them to do. For every woman who regrets her abortion, or any major decision for that matter, theres another woman who will tell you she is certain she made the right choice. So its not for me, or you, or a bunch of rich middle aged men to decide for anyone but ourselves.”
Jasper: “Its unfortunate to me because its never and easy decision to make, never a fun one, never a positive thing to have gone through for any Clinic Bomber – but sometimes its just the right thing for them to do. For every Clinic Bomber who regrets his abortion Clinic bombing, or any major decision for that matter, theres another Clinic Bomber who will tell you he is certain he made the right choice. So its not for me, or you, or a bunch of rich middle aged men to decide for anyone but ourselves.”
There you go again..
Well, I disagree that the effects of abortions OR piercings are “minimal” – just rare, which is different from minimal.
The point is they are equal in their physical dangers, whether minimal or serious but rare. But getting multiples of one bothers you and getting multiples of the other doesn’t.
Why?
Because one is morally WRONG and one is not.
And if multiples of one is not morally wrong, then singles of one are not morally wrong.
It doesn’t matter how many piercings you get. I might find it unattractive, but it is not morally WRONG.
If multiples of the other are wrong, then singles of the other SHOULD also be wrong.
The amount does not matter. The act itself is what is reprehensible.
If you think it is wrong then why do you support it?
You say no, it’s wrong because it is invasive and dangerous.
I’ve never said that. I don’t care how many abortions another women gets: I do believe that after the first, several month’s supply of birth control products should be provided, and that after subsequent abortions the same.
I agree with Amanda that the affects aren’t minimal, they’re rare, there’s a very large difference between those words. I very much believe that it isn’t my choice to decide how many abortions a person needs, or why she needs them. It isn’t for anyone to decide but the woman.
Less,
That’s all well and good. You and I would have a different conversation.
This is about what Amanda said. I know how you feel.
Not that you can’t join in, but Amanda said:
Well, Heather – its incredibly frustrating. You see these teen girls, and they come in scared and crying and hysterical and thinking their lives are over, and regardless of what they decide to do about that particular unwanted pregnancy, we try so hard to make sure they know what behaviors got them in to this situation and what they can do to keep it from happening again. So when they come in a year later in the same state, saying “oh god, how could this happen?!” You just want to scream YOU KNOW HOW THIS HAPPENED!!!!! … but you can’t. There is nothing more frustrating than knowing a girl knows how to prevent pregnancy but chooses not to. The problem is, not all girls do know – but no girl walks out of the program I intern for not knowing how to not get pregnant… so for me, seeing them come back again is infuriating.
And my question is why does it make a difference if she chooses to keep getting pregnant. What difference does it make how many abortions she gets?
“If you think it is wrong then why do you support it?”
Think of it this way… I am morally opposed to young girls wearing skimpy clothes. Im dead serious – it offends me. I dont think God or Jesus ever intended for the general public to see the back of a 15 year olds thong or see the top of an 18 year old girls pubes. Seeing girls dressed like that offends my sense of decency, dignity, and fashion. I would NEVER dress that way myself, and i would NEVER permit my children when I have them to dress that way or hang out with friends who dress that way.
However – if someone else thinks its perfectly fine and right, its NONE OF MY BUSINESS. It can piss me off to no end, but I dont think I have the right to do anything but roll my eyes and wish people had better fashion sense and parents would pay more attention to what their kids are wearing.
I personally against murdering dogs and cats. However – if someone else thinks its perfectly fine and right, its NONE OF MY BUSINESS.
Is this Ok Amanda?
Amanda,
and I totally agree with you.
Except with “style of dress” you’re eyes get offended. With abortion someone gets dead.
I hate that the skinheads march in skokie (a jewish suburb here) but no one dies and it falls under free speech.
But abortion is different, because a person is losing their life. Can’t you see that?
I realize that you’re never going to change your mind. I understand that you really believe this is the “right thing to do”. I know you’re not evil, and I know your not “sick”, but I do believe that you are misguided. The road to hell/good intentions and all that…but I can’t help but hope that one day you’ll realize it’s not us who only look at the fetuses and ignore the women. It’s you’re side that only looks at the women and ignores the babes.
I honestly believe that most of you on here are really decent people trying to forge a niche in life and get and give what happiness you can. I just wish soooo much that you could see this for what it is. And how much it harms EVERYONE. The mothers who have them, the babies who are aborted, women in general, society, the men who father the babies, and you, the people who support it. It steals something from you. Something so deep down inside that it may be years before you see the damage. But it is there. And it pains me to see beautiful, young people hurting themselves, even if it is incidentally.
peace.
time to watch some people dance…
MK –
skinheads need to get over it. they are so frikking pathetic, because they have no cause that makes any sense, they’re just bitter and angry and need to blame someone else because their life sucks. Those people make me sick. Uhhhggg…Im glad they dont march through Brooklyn – they wouldnt dare, because people WOULD get killed.
As far as abortion being different, I guess thats just where we’re never going to agree – because I just feel that the rights of the woman who’s body the fetus is growing in come before that of the fetus until viability. I know I’ve said this a million times, but the second they come up with a technology to transplant a womb from a woman who doesnt want it to a woman who does, I’ll be as opposed to abortion as you are, except of course in cases of health, rape, and incest.
Well,
Until then, let’s just agree to be friends.
Albeit friends who disagree.
Doesn’t mean I won’t be fightin’ with you again and visa versa, but I do respect you and hope you feel the same. I enjoyed tonite. You’re okay, for a pro-abort…just kidding. I don’t use that term anyway…
good night.
Hey, weren’t you going to a barbeque?
God Bless.
Agreed, of course.
Nope, that was someone else… I’m in the middle of packing up my apartment and waiting for the bf to get home from bagpipe practice so he can help me with the boxes… very boring.. but I will try to have a good night… you do the same =)
I dare say…Thor hath doth attempted in smiting Rudy Guilliani. That makes me giggle greatly.
“skinheads need to get over it. they are so frikking pathetic, because they have no cause that makes any sense, they’re just bitter and angry and need to blame someone else because their life sucks. Those people make me sick. Uhhhggg…Im glad they dont march through Brooklyn – they wouldnt dare, because people WOULD get killed”
See for Radical Liberals like Amanda, skinheads offend her them more than terrorist do, they are truly pathetic, cowardly people.
“See for Radical Liberals like Amanda, skinheads offend her them more than terrorist do, they are truly pathetic, cowardly people.”
Shut up Jasper, please, just shut up. Skinheads are the terrorists of America, they are HERE promoting the killing of people. Terrorists are just as bad, but they aren’t in America, though they are still a threat.
Rae – dont even worry about whatever Jasper is saying….he is just trying desperately to get my attention.
I might bother getting worked up about it, if I didnt know for a fact that I’ve never said a single word about how I feel about terrorists on this board, and I think its hysterically funny he assumes Im a “radical liberal” soley on my views of abortion.
but you’re right of course, that skinheads are terrorists.
@Jasper: There is still a threat.
And just so you know, there have been many times MORE suicide bombings and terrorist attacks in the country of Sri Lanka between the Tamil Tigers and the Sinhalese Buddhists than all of the terrorist attacks in the Middle East in the past decade.
@Jasper: I think you would be surprised with the number of race-related murders there are in America. I imagine that it’s higher than you would think it to be.
No Rae, I don’t think there are alot. If there are, it’s mostly hispanic/black on white crime more than anything else.
@Jasper: Of course you think that (but that’s not true). It’s more black on black or hispanic on hispanic, to be honest. The black on white or hispanic on white crimes are just more widely reported because of the inherent prejudice of the news. :-/
@Jasper: I suppose you don’t believe in institutional racism, do you? But give me a break, don’t you notice that the paper is more likely to report a crime done by a black man on a white person than on a crime done by a black man to another black man?
I haven’t noticed that, Rae. In fact, I feel it’s the other way around. But I guess we must be reading different papers and watching different TV.
@Bethany: Perhaps…this is just something I’ve noticed in Minnesota, that when a black person kills a white person the media goes ballistic and covers the story incessantly making it headline news for at least a week, but when a black person kill another black person, it is relegated to some random page in “local news”.
*shrugs*
“See for Radical Liberals like Amanda, skinheads offend her them more than terrorist do, they are truly pathetic, cowardly people.”
Yes… she also likes Grape flavored drinks, so must think that orange flavored drinks are the blood of satan.
Your asinine inferences, while mildly amusing, are getting old Jasper.
And so are yours Cameron.
asinine? Cameron?
what is a greater threat to our country: skinheads or terrorists?
what kind of people are you? where have you been?
“I hate that the skinheads march in skokie (a jewish suburb here) but no one dies and it falls under free speech
Skinheads are the terrorists of America, they are HERE promoting the killing of people.
skinheads need to get over it. they are so frikking pathetic, because they have no cause that makes any sense, they’re just bitter and angry and need to blame someone else because their life sucks. Those people make me sick.”
Ok, this ignorance is annoying and offending considering my background. Get your facts straight. NEO-NAZIS ARE NOT TRUE SKINHEADS! They stole the freaking look from us. The original skinhead movement was started by the black man down in Jamaica, and seeing as how Jill says she’s from Chicago, then I know she can back me up on knowing the SHARP crews [Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice]. SKINHEADS ARE NOT RACISTS, FASCISTS, OR PREJUDICED IN ANY WAY! We’re not fence-walkers, and we’re not blood-thirsty thugs looking to hurt anyone. We just support the working class, and if anything, we hate neos and everything they stand for.
Taken from Wikipedia:
Skinheads, named after their shaven heads, are members of a subculture that originated in Britain in the 1960s, where they were closely tied to the Rude Boys of the West Indies and the Mods of the UK.
There are several different types of skinheads, in terms of style and political beliefs. Some skinheads don’t fit into any of these categories, and many display characteristics of more than one category. The usefulness of these terms is to explain the dominant forces of skinhead social structure.
Style categories
Oh my gosh Dan,
Sorry. Since I don’t hang out with members of either group, surely you can see why I’d mix them up.
But you’re point is taken and I won’t make that mistake again!
Learn something new everyday…
Your sarcasm is duly noted and unappreciated, Mary Kate
Rudy is personally opposed to abortion but does not want to force his position on anyone else??
This position is just ridiculous. Would he feel the same way about slavery back when it was legal. Would he feel the same about racial discrimination? Rape? Terrorism?
This is John Kerry all over again. Rudy does not have the guts to stand up for his convictions!
and I don’t even believe Rudy is personally Pro-Life!
If you don’t have the guts to stand up for what you believe in, then you should not be running for any political office.
That just my beliefs.
Mike
Mike, well said!!