Junk in the trunk
I reported Feb. 9 about a young father who pro-life sidewalk counselors spotted carrying his aborted baby in a white trash bag to the back door of a FL late-term abortion mill after the baby accidentally was delivered at home or in a hotel room.
Now comes news of a similar incident that happened at Hope Clinic in Granite City, IL, on Good Friday.
Sidewalk counselor Angela Michaels reported in an email alert it started when she spotted a white car with a personalized license plate return to the mill for the second day.
(Late-term abortions usually take two days. Medication is given to dilate the cervix the first day, and the baby is aborted the second.)
Two young women got out of the car, walked to the guard shack to sign in, and went into the clinic.
“About 20 seconds later, the driver and Hope(less) employee Ryan Goski came walking out of the clinic back to the car,” reported Angela. “Our red flags went up. The woman opened up the driver’s side door to unlatch the trunk, which Ryan then opened. We questioned him, ‘What’s inside the trunk?'”
Angela said Ryan grabbed a “bloodied, brown bag” from the trunk and walked back inside the abortion mill with the driver.
“He tried to hide the bag from us so we wouldn’t be able to photograph it,” said Angela. “It was hard to fathom how a mother, let alone a human being, could treat another little human being as if it were trash.”
Abortionist Yogendra Shah didn’t arrive for another 65 minutes. The two women left the mill 3-1/2 hours later, the mother pale and the driver cursing and threatening Angela and her group.
Was this just an aberrancy (as if “aberrant” and “abortion” don’t go together already)?
In her email Angela described the recent “football baby” incident. This time a young couple brought their baby to the mill after she was delivered at the motel where they were staying between the first and second day of the abortion procedure.
“As they approached the deathguard shack, the nervous young man dropped the bag and the baby spewed onto the walkway,” said Angela. “Before we could focus our camera, the guard yelled for the male accomplice to, ‘Kick it! Kick it in here.’ And he obliged by repeatedly kicking the baby girl inside [the shack], where they held up until [someone] came out and helped all three get inside [the mill].”
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I wonder if the pro-choice side are as horrified with these stories as they are with the idea of unborn babies on chopping boards and soup bowls?
It’s equally disgusting. But do they see it that way?
That is quite disgusting, not going to lie, as I’m personally opposed to abortions beyond 12 weeks (unless the fetus has a fatal defect or the mother’s LIFE is in danger).
*shrugs*
Isn’t it so sad, Rae?…that little baby girl could have had a mother who would hold her, give her kisses and blow on her little tummy and listen to her sweet laughter…and instead, the tiny one, who never even got a chance, was being jerked around in a brown paper sack, and kicked into an abortion clinic. :-( I just can’t fathom such inhumanity.
Even though all abortions are wrong,I feel that these late trimester abortions are the absolute worst!There is always the possibility that the child will live through the procedure and suffer some more.Heartless,heartless parents I say.I wonder if this selfish no good mother will sleep well at night.The only thing this couple wants to do is get back to their carefree lifestyle.
It is rather sad yes, that people get into situations that that sort of behavior is warranted (but not excused by any means). I do find that behavior quite revolting indeed. I mean come on…kicking it? Yes, it’s a dead fetus, but the remains ought to be handled more respectfully than that. For crying out loud, amputated limbs are handled better.
PS.Isn’t there a better way to handle human remains? {The abortion issue aside for a minute}Seriously,isn’t this abuse of a corpse?
“It’s equally disgusting. But do they see it that way?”
Of course we do. We’re not stones, we have feelings as well. And in this case, I feel that guy should get some kicks himself.
I know somebody will say I’m a heartless murdering babykiller or something (I’m sorry to take the wind out of your sails), but we don’t actually know there were any remains in that bag. We’re just speculating now on a grainy photo.
It reminds me of Dr.Jack Kevorkian assisting with suicides in the back of his van in the woods.Quack,quack,quack!
The guy deserves some kicks in the place that helps him make babies in the first place…damage that and then they won’t need to get abortions as they can’t have little chitlins no more.
People like this ought to be sterilized…cripes.
First of all, of you judgemental faux do-gooders have a clue why this particular individual was seeking a late abortion. Perhaps it was a matter of being able to have future kids. Perhaps the mother and father are not particularly happy about this. None the less, they need to return to the clinic on with fetus and make sure everything’s there, as oposed to stuff going necrotic inside the woman. Antics such these, chasing them around with the bag, ultimately will discourage people from returning for a follow-up should they abort prematurely at the hotel/home, and I think, should they die or suffer infections because of that doesn’t help advance you fetus-centric cause in way shape or form.
That was funny Rae,I couldn’t agree more!!How bout a vasectomy without any anesthesia?
Meh, vasectomies aren’t terribly painful from what I understand.
Though I do believe in castration via rusty spork for rapists and child molesters.
So be it!lol
What’s most disgusting about this, is imagining what would have happened if the “counselors” had actually gotten a hold of the fetus and started parading it around like a trophy. Who’s really ugly now? Jill would probably smear the blood on her face like war paint and charge the clinic ululating.
Meh, vasectomies aren’t terribly painful from what I understand.
Though I do believe in castration via rusty spork for rapists and child molesters.
Rae, I love being able to agree with you! :)
Well I’m done hatin’ on men for now…as I do know some men are very nice and respectful and I also realize that some women are just as bad as bad men can be.
@Cameron: QLTM. RAmen.
What’s most disgusting about this, is imagining what would have happened if the “counselors” had actually gotten a hold of the fetus and started parading it around like a trophy. Who’s really ugly now? Jill would probably smear the blood on her face like war paint and charge the clinic ululating.
If one of the counselors had gotten hold of her you can bet anything that baby would be in loving arms of someone who would see to it that she would have gotten a dignified burial and memorial.
In addition to what you said Rae,I would never let the mother’s off the hook.I have plenty of male friends that wish that the women in their lives wouldn’t have aborted.Those women give women in general a bad name.Some of these guys would have made great dads.Unfortunatley,the woman’s choice is the only one that matters.A good friend of mine told me about the day his wife[now ex-wife] told him the news about her abortion.She screamed “I WAS pregnant!”@#%$(*&&A few curse words followed.then she yelled”I had the little bastard sucked out of me!!!”He was devestated.He never knew.Shame on her!
Cameron, 3:53p, said: “… what would have happened if the “counselors” had actually gotten a hold of the fetus and started parading it around like a trophy. Who’s really ugly now? Jill would probably smear the blood on her face like war paint and charge the clinic ululating.”
Cameron, you are vile, wicked. I cannot imagine the darkened mind that would think what up, never mind actually type it.
As I said, there are bad people in both genders. And it really bothers me that people use abortion as a means of revenge…that’s just irresponsible and immature on their part.
Oh.. Come on Jill… you’re just mad because you know it’s true. You all be running out into the street with the pre-baby corpse and shoving it in the windows of cars passing by… Looky what abortion does… looky at the dead pre-baby… we’re so rightous.
Cameron, I’ve held one of those aborted babies until he died. Just SHUT UP.
Well then Jill… would you like to explain the scuffle? Why the bag broke in the first place?? At the very least, it seems respect for the dead is second to the opportunity to get some good photos with which to advance the freaky save the pre-baby cause.
Explain to me what the *&$% they were trying to do?? I really don’t think a “proper burial” was at the top of their minds, and you don’t either, hence the “shut up”
Doing so would be to place pearls before swine, my friend.
Welcome to the Vile and Wicked Club, Cameron. Good to have you on board.
So….. taking the fetus is somehow moral? im sorry, but if my baby had died in my wives womb and we had to have it removed, i think the only thing that could possibly make it worse is being harrassed by ignorant people with cameras, who intend to steal the fetus, and bury it without my permission…
has it never occurred to you people that there are other things going on at an abortion clinic? that the mother may not want the pregnancy terminated but has to to survive it? or that the fetus was going necrotic and needed to be removed?
oh, and Jill, im calling BS on you. the fetus is dead before its expelled from the uterus, so if you held it before it died you had your hand through a womans cervix, and your hand is probably what killed it in that case.
Oh Liam Please.4000 abortions a day.Pregnancy is not an illness or a plague.It’s a normal condition.Yes,there are pregnancy related illnesses,but not 4000 a day!
So what’s the pearl here??? Bringing-up such a gruesome story in the first place so you could put it in peoples’ faces and try to make some sort of self-righteous point at the expense of an unfortunate couple in IL?? Nice!
I really like how everyone started out speculating how pro-choicers might defend such a thing, as though making it political capital isn’t just a bit unconscionable to begin with. The counselors were like a macabre version of paparazzi, waiting for a bloody version of the beaver shot.
You should really think about this stuff a little better. You look like a 5 year old screaming how mature and old enough you are as you cry and grudgingly stomp-off to bed.
No,Rae is pro-choice and even she feels it isn’t right.
“Pregnancy is not an illness or a plague.It’s a normal condition.”
Possibly. I fail to see the relevance, though.
“If one of the counselors had gotten hold of her you can bet anything that baby would be in loving arms of someone who would see to it that she would have gotten a dignified burial and memorial.”
The way Frank Pavone of Priests for Life has given a dignified burial to the fetus he brings to protests? Doesn’t Operation Save America also have a fetus they refuse to bury, instead parading it around at protests?
“Oh Liam Please.4000 abortions a day.Pregnancy is not an illness or a plague.It’s a normal condition.Yes,there are pregnancy related illnesses,but not 4000 a day!”
Ok,
A) I wasn’t talking to you.
B) Proper grammar dictates you put a space after a sentence. Please, you just look ignorant and people arent going to take you seriously.
C)ID&X, AKA third trimester abortions are done EXCLUSIVELY for health reasons, and as such, I think its fair to say there was a good chance if this story is true that the mother had serious health issues and probably did not want to end the pregnancy.
Liam, here is what Jill’s testimony states:
“But what was most distressing was to learn of the method Christ Hospital uses to abort, called induced labor abortion, now also known as “live birth abortion.” In this particular abortion procedure doctors do not attempt to kill the baby in the uterus. The goal is simply to prematurely deliver a baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward.”
And by the way,
“Other hospitals have now admitted that they commit live birth abortion. It apparently is not a rare form of abortion. But Christ Hospital was the first hospital in the United States to be publicly exposed for committing this form of abortion.”
“Doesn’t Operation Save America also have a fetus they refuse to bury, instead parading it around at protests?”
I’m pretty sure messing with human remains is a crime in most states. If not, it certainly should be (obviously organ donors and donors to science aside).
Tell that to Flip Benham.
“Anti-abortion activists over the last week have trotted out an aborted fetus in a vacuum-packed bag, torn up then burned a Quran, shredded a gay pride flag, and preached Jesus’ message over loudspeakers in the street.” ~Clarion Ledger, Mississippi
So what’s the pearl here??? Bringing-up such a gruesome story in the first place so you could put it in peoples’ faces and try to make some sort of self-righteous point at the expense of an unfortunate couple in IL?? Nice!
Cameron, you’re a hyopcrite. If this were a pro-‘choice’ story about pro-life women ‘waving fetuses’ as you so eloquently described in your sick fantasy, you’d have no problem with it.
The reason Jill posts these gruesome stories (at least you have the ability to admit it’s gruesome), is to expose these people for what they’re doing, to raise awareness so that people can know what is happening behind the label of “PRO CHOICE”.
What were they doing Bethany? They were coming to the clinic for help. But I spose you’d rather the woman die a month later due to sepsis because there’s a rotting finger still in her womb.
Bethany = tool
yet this doesnt talk about pro life groups or people who do things like “wave a fetus”, opr the hate that they commit, only stories that can create emotional feelings for the pro life side.
Like I said, you’re a hypocrite.
That above post was for Cameron, not you ,Dan.
“he reason Jill posts these gruesome stories (at least you have the ability to admit it’s gruesome), is to expose these people for what they’re doing, to raise awareness so that people can know what is happening behind the label of “PRO CHOICE”.”
and as I said, nothing about what people are doing under the label of “PRO LIFE”, such as the quotes somewhere up above.
I figured bethany, no worries
Wow, is this what the world is getting at?
Seriously, Would pro-lifers here prefer the woman DIE of complications in order to “pay” for her “Carefree lifestyle.?”
It’s the truth, dear pro-aborts. It’s what’s actually going on. All these years you haven’t and won’t hear about it in the press. This is balance. This is what it means to be you.
bethany, what? that they were obviously distraught at the loss of a pregnancy and didnt happen to have a biohazard box or miniature coffin in a hotel room when the woman prematurely aborted?
no one is arguing that abortion is nice. only that women have a right to bodily integrity. whether or not i agree that what they can exercise with that right is neccesarily moral.
so why pick on late term abortions? because they are closest to viable fetuses? thats precisely why to leave them alone. there have to be some severe extenuating circumstances for the abortion to be occuring in the first place that late in the game.
and why did they burn a koran? and what does everyone have against gays? seriously. they dont have abortions and their not hurting anyone. i say leave them be as long as they dont stick anything up my butt.
“that little baby girl could have had a mother who would hold her, give her kisses and blow on her little tummy and listen to her sweet laughter…and instead, the tiny one, who never even got a chance, was being jerked around in a brown paper sack, and kicked into an abortion clinic. :-( I just can’t fathom such inhumanity.”
Yes the fetus could have had a good mother one that did all those things. But it could have had a mother that beat, spit, kicked and done several other horrible things as well.
Overall this whole story makes my stomach turn.
By the time I read your postings, Jill, everyone has said everything there is to say. Excellent work with your blog!
Except for…
Cameron – There wouldn’t be a finger still floating around the in mother if the baby hadn’t been chopped and sucked to pieces!!!
And who are you calling a tool??
Hypocrite: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
Be honest now Beth… who here do you think is pretending to have morals and such??
I think you stop throwing around big words here if you don’t what they mean and can’t otherwise keep up.
weird… i cant find a single reference to live birth abortion or induced labor abortion that doesnt just directly quote jill stanek or come from a decidedly anti abortion site… figure the AMA would have had something to say about it by now… unless we’re alledging that they have something to hide.
Ryan Cameron was just trying to say that there could be parts of the fetus still inside the women.
Liam, try googling “Hialeah abortion” or “Baby Rowan abortion” for starters.
“It’s the truth, dear pro-aborts. It’s what’s actually going on. All these years you haven’t and won’t hear about it in the press. This is balance. This is what it means to be you.”
Really, Jill, I would expect better than petty name calling from…wait, no I wouldn’t. well, at least not from you. so tell me, why call me pro-abort? you dont know my stance, you dont know my beliefs, and i have yet to say anything about either, just said that this was a reprehensible situation drastically exacerbated by the presence of pro life fanatics.
oh, and did you have the parents permission to hold their expiring fetus? because i can’t really see that happening. unless of course you have had an abortion you haven’t told us about. don’t worry, we forgive you for your sins.
“Cameron, you’re a hyopcrite. If this were a pro-‘choice’ story about pro-life women ‘waving fetuses’ as you so eloquently described in your sick fantasy, you’d have no problem with it.
The reason Jill posts these gruesome stories (at least you have the ability to admit it’s gruesome), is to expose these people for what they’re doing, to raise awareness so that people can know what is happening behind the label of “PRO CHOICE”.”
no, we are not ok with things like this in any way, no matter what side. it’s sick. don’t make stupid assumptions.
you know what this exposes? nothing. LATE TERM ABORTIONS ARE GRANTED FOR HEALTH REASONS ONLY ARE DONE IN HOSPITALS. you can’t just get one because you don’t feel like having a baby. most women who have late term abortions wanted the baby in the first place but couldn have it otherwise. it’s horrifying to me that they are being treated as criminals. where’s your compassion for their suffering? nowhere because you’re too busy demonizing them.
late abortions millls? gimmie a break.
“There wouldn’t be a finger still floating around the in mother if the baby hadn’t been chopped and sucked to pieces!!!”
Translation: we are justified stooping to the lowest common denominator to get a picture of it so that we may transcend the gummy-baby image libraries with the genuine thing and disgust our way to a Social Security registration upon conception.
Dan, did you really expect anything else from a pro-life site? And besides, anything you or anyone else here has shown us to “expose” the pro-life sides errors, we have never denied, unless it was patently false, or if it was twisted in such a way that it was made to sound different than what actually happened. And we clarify with links and articles. And we obviously are not in agreement with the people who make a bad name for us.
BTW, I have never seen Jill censor anything that you or anyone else has posted about pro-life “scandals” (unless it was false or contained vulgar content).
Liam, anyone like you who defends partial-birth abortion is the worst kind of pro-abort.
Jana – I understand.
There wouldn’t be pieces of a child inside of a mother’s womb unless a WHOLE child was divided into PIECES.
Jill-
I don’t think liam necessary defended partial birth abortion…
“Translation: we are justified stooping to the lowest common denominator to get a picture of it so that we may transcend the gummy-baby image libraries with the genuine thing and disgust our way to a Social Security registration upon conception. ”
your nuts.
So nobody besides Liam has anything to say about the anti-abortion groups using “vacuum-packed” fetuses in their protests? Where’s the outrage? Where’s the disgust at the way human remains are being treated by the very people who swear they are trying to protect the unborn? I expected more from you.
Hypocrite: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
Be honest now Beth… who here do you think is pretending to have morals and such??
So you are freely admitting you do not have morals?
yeah, jill… didnt come up with much… did finally find an account of what was really going on with the live birth (technically induced labor) abortions… which, technically arent even abortions… really more “induced premature births”
again, these are only performed when there is a substantial health risk to the mother, and only performed because it is the safest way to extract the fetuse vis a vis the mother. so really, you should be for it. the child has a chance (however slim) of being the next miracle baby to survive at 21 weeks.
and yet i still dont quite believe someone consented to you holding their dying fetus.
and that bag doesn’t look to bloodied to me.
sweet propaganda.
oh wait… let me correct my spelling…
YOO AR NUTZ!
the baby rowan thing is completely made up. so many people have discredited it.
stop lying jill.
Jill, if you continue to call me “pro-abort” without knowing my stance, i can’t honestly take you seriously. you dont ask, you assume. thats your problem. i said, why trouble late term abortions when their done for medical reasons, rather than early term abortions that can be done electively?
and if you call me “pro-abort” based on the fact i think its moral to terminate a pregnancy that would result in the death of the mother and the fetus, i must resort to thinking of you as Pro-Death for sentencing an innocent mother to death with no hope of saving a fetus, and i believe even the staunchest of pro lifers (IE the Holy Catholic Church) would agree with me. Yep, even the Holy See is on my side.
“Dan, did you really expect anything else from a pro-life site?”
course not, because then it would be at least attempting to be unbiased rather than pro-life
“And besides, anything you or anyone else here has shown us to “expose” the pro-life sides errors, we have never denied, unless it was patently false, or if it was twisted in such a way that it was made to sound different than what actually happened. And we clarify with links and articles. And we obviously are not in agreement with the people who make a bad name for us.”
Nor are we, yet Jill seems to try and make it out that we are for some reason, I wonder why that would be?
and as was already said, wheres the anger over the vacuum packed fetus being paraded by a pro life group eh?
Beth,
Morals??? I certainly don’t attempt to capture images of dead babies so that I can feel better about myself… if that’s what you call morals and virtue!
What do you do Beth? Shoplift then go home and self-flegullate or something??
What kind of pro-aborts go to pro-life blogs and get into arguments like this anyways?
Is Jill going to read one of your comments one day and suddenly have a ‘eureka’ moment and convert to the pro-abortion clan and start a CHOICE blog!?!
Bethany,
“I have never seen Jill censor anything that you or anyone else has posted about pro-life “scandals” (unless it was false or contained vulgar content). ”
a. Absense of Evidence is not evidence of absense. She DELETES them as in, makes the unviewable, if there not veiwable how would you expect to see them?
b. I believe the last time I was here she was deleting posts because they contained the word “hymen”
Hey, I say we all get paintball guns, pick and time and a place, and have at it for a couple of hours.
And whoever doesn’t have any paint on them at the end wins the argument.
=)
Okay so I am totally jumpiping in in the middle, but I want to put my two cents in.
1) I do think it is sick that they kicked the fetus…I think it is even more sick that they felt they were in so much danger from the pro lifers that they had not choice but to kick the fetus into the guard shack.
2) Who knows what is really inside that bag, its a grainy picture, and you are just assuming. We all know what they say about those who assume….
“b. I believe the last time I was here she was deleting posts because they contained the word “hymen””
The word Hymen is a pro-life scandal? :-S
Or maybe it could be that the way you used it was vulgar. Like I mentioned above.
“What kind of pro-aborts go to pro-life blogs and get into arguments like this anyways?”
the same kind of people who are pro life who go to pro choice sites and pick apart the posts and comments, not to mention the ones that want to attempt to have *gasp* an intelligent debate! or to point out falsies or inaccuracies, thats fun too.
“Is Jill going to read one of your comments one day and suddenly have a ‘eureka’ moment and convert to the pro-abortion clan and start a CHOICE blog!?!”
dont that happening with Jill, but it can happen, I used to be a member of the pro life camp before coming over to the pro choice side
So, Jill. I’ll make a little assumption of my own.
I am going to assume you are a Christian, like myself. I am also going to assume you think yourself a good christian, I won’t try to guess at that, i dont know you. I do, however, find it helpful to remember a few things in my daily life as a christian, that help me be a better christian and a better person, these being:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord (not ours, us being human)
God is Love
Let he that is without sin cast the fist stone
God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
and most importantly
Judge not lest ye be judged.
which would have me say, love the sinner, hate the sin, forgive others and you will be forgiven. Christ was a smart guy, and even if you don’t think he was the Son of the Most High, and dont neccesarily believe what he said was absolute truth, i think theres a lot you can learn from Jesus.
thanks for reading jill.
ryan: i don’t expect anything from a nitwit like her because she refuses to accept facts and lives to comdemn people. but if she has a right to spew her crap, so do i.
Erin – well, at least you’re honest about the crap part.
I still think a paintball battle would help this discussion.
All the pro-aborts on one side, the pro-lifers on the other…
liam, that was beautiful, but she won’t respond because she doesn’at care or aknowledge anything that doesn’t agree with her or prove her wrong.
What do you think about pictures from the holocaust, Cameron? Who is the sick one in that situation…the photographer who exposes the cruelty, or the ones who did the acts?
http://partisantimes.typepad.com/partisan_times/images/holocaust
_victims_1.jpg
http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/jpg/05-0512.jpg
“b. I believe the last time I was here she was deleting posts because they contained the word “hymen””
Ooo, I was here that day too and got my posts deleted. Why? Because we were trying to explain to HisMan that a hymen does not prove virginity, i.e. there were a bunch of us how has had our hymens broken while horse back riding.
Is this vulgar talk, Bethany? Trying to disprove to someone that a hymen means virginity (an idea that gets women killed in some areas). That’s vulgar? Really?
yes, but bethany, they werent fighting to take the pictures and attacking some one else simply for the chance to try and take a photo
Also, Cameron, would you be as deeply offended by pictures of diseased lungs that people show to expose the dangers of cigarette smoking?
http://www.robertsreview.com/images/cancer_px_compressed/
lung_cancer_adenocarcinoma_tumor.jpg
look, i have a problem with people who aren’t compassionate and are so self-righteous, meanwhile, call themselves christian. it’s not their job to judge. IT’S GOD’S JOB.
yes, but bethany, they werent fighting to take the pictures and attacking some one else simply for the chance to try and take a photo
Huh?
ah, but erin, then we couldnt have criminals punished for crimes because we cant judge ;)
Dan, I don’t like intillegant debates.
;)
When I see a picture of a bloody, dismembered corpse of a child, I tend to believe something less-than-kosher has transpired.
“What do you think about pictures from the holocaust, Cameron? Who is the sick one in that situation…the photographer who exposes the cruelty, or the ones who did the acts?”
Bethany… Actually it was the Nazis who took the pictures. They took pictures of everything, especially medical experiments. There records were impeccable.
I assumed you were comparing those photographers to the ones who tried to photograph the fetus, big difference between the two.
Edit: A majority of the pictures. Obviously not the ones after liberation of the camps.
Thats the reason we know so much about the holocaust, they took ridiculously good records at most of the camps.
look, i have a problem with people who aren’t compassionate and are so self-righteous, meanwhile, call themselves christian. it’s not their job to judge. IT’S GOD’S JOB.
Some Biblical views on Judging:
http://www.thestormshelter.net/judging.html
“Also, Cameron, would you be as deeply offended by pictures of diseased lungs that people show to expose the dangers of cigarette smoking?
http://www.robertsreview.com/images/cancer_px_compressed/
lung_cancer_adenocarcinoma_tumor.jpg”
can i ask for a little favor? next time you post a link like that do it when im not lighting a cigarette please?
lol
This is hardly a “debate” anyway.
Aww, Bethany brought up the “I’m not judging you, I’m simply stating and correcting you” argument. How cute…
No one seems to be reading my comments..
I’ll have to say something mean and intelligent…
omg, you actually pulled the holocaust card. seriously, so upsetting to me that people still say this. any holocaust victim would punch you in the face for this. why? because they were completely conscious the entire time they were being tortured and starved and persecuted, while knowing everyone they love is quite possibly dead or dying. a fetus knows NOTHING OF LIFE. there is NO comparason there. get off the high horse on this one.
so ignorant.
“I’ll have to say something mean and intelligent…”
thats typically how things seem to go, to be noticed people seems to insult first before making their reply.
I think it would be aweful if anti-smoking people jammed a camera down a poor saps throat, unwillingly, to get the shot. Aparently you all don’t think that’s wrong though… go figure.. bodily autonomy’s not exactly priority one with people trying tyring to make gestation compulsory
Here ya go Bethany,
http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/gallery/p152.htm
They weren’t taken by people trying to expose the nastiness of the Nazis. They were taken BY THE NAZIS!
“When I see a picture of a bloody, dismembered corpse of a child, I tend to believe something less-than-kosher has transpired.”
That’s not really mean or intelligent… just common sense.
Is this vulgar talk, Bethany? Trying to disprove to someone that a hymen means virginity (an idea that gets women killed in some areas). That’s vulgar? Really?
Danielle, I was there before they were deleted. I know what they said. I seem to remember something someone posted about different slangs you can use for different sexual organs, but I’m sure you wouldn’t remember that. What good that did to contribute to the discussion, I’ll never know.
This is Jill’s “internet home”. If you don’t like the way it’s operated, go elsewhere. There’s plenty of abortion blogs on the internet.
Using Beth’s argument… I guess it’s OK for NAMBLA to distribute pictures of naked children.
see, im pretty strict with my interpretation of the new testament (obviously parables aside, if you take them literally you’d think the bible came with commercial breaks) and when it says not to judge, i do my best not to, and know that i better not condemn anyones actions. being an ex-con im really in no position to judge or condemn anyone.
and in the case of parables… you have to love the prodigal son. what more uplifting tale of forgivness can there possibly be? well, other than jesus actually dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. i mean. thats a pretty big sacrifice/big deal.
my point (assuming i have one) is: wouldn’t it be better to help people than condemn them, regardless of what they may or may not have done, and is any of us qualified to condemn another for their sins, sinners as we all are? i can tell you i think what you are doing is wrong, but i have no right to prevent it, and certainly no right to harm you in the process.
just a thought.
bethany, if you’re going to preach, preach his word, not you’re own….like jill here.
Who’s word are you referring to? It is certainly not God’s word you are talking about, because I sent you a link which showed several passages of His word proving you were wrong. If you’re right, prove it to me Biblicly.
I’m serious… This would be a great group for a paintball shootout. Do any of you live in Minnesota?
So if it’s okay for paparazzi to harass people to get pictures of their fetus, then I’m sure your fine with the fact that princess Di was hounded by the press which caused the car crash which killed her. But ya know, they were just trying to show the world her relationship with Dodi Al Fayed. No harm there? Ha.
http://www.emergency.com/dianaded.htm
Danielle, you might want to read your own links before you post them.
Many (ie. not all) of the photographs documenting the Holocaust, which are available today, were taken by the Nazi government as part of their passion for detailed record keeping.
“ah, but erin, then we couldnt have criminals punished for crimes because we cant judge ;)”
not cute dan. i’m talking about in regards to the bible.
Its sad business being a canuck- We’re NEVER where the party’s at.
Ooooh… the calm before the storm!! here come more intelligent comments!!
Bethany,
Maybe you should have kept reading further down the wall:
“Edit: A majority of the pictures. Obviously not the ones after liberation of the camps.
Posted by: Danielle [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 10, 2007 05:29 PM”
I have to say its pretty despicable for anyone to compare anything to the holocaust. you all consider it safe, but really there havent been any other occurences in human history with the possible exception of the colonization of the americas where you saw slavery, genocide, and mass torture all on that scale in one place in such a short timespan. i think you all owe a holocaust survivor an apology.
I’m slightly put off by the fact that no one knew for sure why these women were going to the clinic, and assumed it was an abortion. Miscarriage, anyone? It’s likely they put the remains in a sack to be examined, just to make sure all the parts were expelled from the uterus.
It is sad that they resorted to kicking the fetus inside to hide it from the protesters, but I think it says more about the pro-life movement than the pro-choice movement. They were so harrassed and afraid of someone commercializing a baby they may have wanted that they panicked and did what probably seemed necessary at the time. If life is so precious, why parade around pictures of death to make your point, to show how disgusting abortion is, to show how ugly a process it can be? Wouldn’t the message be less mitigated by these hypocrisies if in fact pro lifers dedicated their time and effort to promote what they say they are all about–life?
The use of pictures will never make sense to me, particularly in public places like the student union at my university and the public roads by these clinics. I don’t really have a problem with them being on the internet–just like pornography, I have a choice not to look at it on the net.
I’m going to start calling these pictures of mangled fetuses and the clammoring to get a better shot at the remains falling out of the bag “fetal porn”. Not in the sense it gets a sexual response, but in the sense that the images serve to provoke a strong emotional response and are used ad nauseum to promote a political movement with no real regard to the fetus in the content of the picture whatsoever. Jill, that makes you a fetal pornographer. Glad to know you have to use pictures/digustingly explicit stories to make your point. But that’s only because you realize a scientific or objective basis will never be enough to convince anyone to be pro-life. It only takes emotional pot-shots, objectifying the fetus and the women in question.
bethany, she had amended her statement, she realized her mistake.
well, bethany, turns out to be a good link after all….
“2. Condemning and Criticizing (Bad Judging)
Using people
All Right. I’ve had enough fun.
Off to Chipotle.. gonna get me a burrito!
bethany, she had amended her statement, she realized her mistake.
There are so many posts, I admit I missed it.
i love how you poeple won’t address what i said about the holocaust. too afraid to respond to anything that might make you look wrong.
i have to wonder, am i not being responded to because im not inflammatory enough or because you all enjoy the sin of arrogance too much?
okey doke, just pointing it out.
Yeah, Gosh.
I think it’s because people keep leaving so many annoying comments that don’t pertain to anything that’s being discussed!
Gosh!
Ryan,
Uhh. Kind of like you going on and on about paintball??
Erin, they won’t address anti-abortion groups using fetal remains in protests either. Anything that casts a less than positive light on the movement is ignored. You should know that by now.
Danielle.
I was being sarcastic =)
Using people
Yes, Joy.
All pro-lifers and HYPOCRITES!
BOO THEM!!! BOOOOO!
So you think that kicking a fetus into a clinic to try and get it away from prying eyes is a bad thing. Disrespectful.
But why is it not disrespectful to post pictures of dead fetuses all over the internet, carry it around on signs, or even carrying an miscarried child around an pro-life rally (some priest did that, don’t know his name. Someone else might)?
Would you post pictures of your dead children on the the internet to show respect to them?
i find it amusing i still havent been replied to on any of my posts about human decency…
But why is it not disrespectful to post pictures of dead fetuses all over the internet, carry it around on signs, or even carrying an miscarried child around an pro-life rally (some priest did that, don’t know his name. Someone else might)?
Would you post pictures of your dead children on the the internet to show respect to them?
um, I did. I posted pictures of my miscarriage on this very site to expose what babies look like at such a young age. And I didn’t think it was disrespectful at all. My baby is buried beneath 5 beautiful weeping cherry trees which bloomed this year and were lovely. My baby’s picture is being used in pregnancy crisis centers now to show people the beauty of what lies inside the womb even at such a young age (the baby was 6 weeks and already had hands and feet, fingers and toes, a mouth, tongue, eyes and ears…and the cutest little tummy ever. I love my little baby and am looking forward to the day I will see him or her again.
So yes, danielle, I would.
This is the same Jen. For some reason I was booted off and I had to create an account. Oh well.
Liam, I feel you. Well, maybe Jill is crafting a response. Or she banninated me. Either way.
Ah, bannation, the ultimate flattery
Bethany,
Okay, now what if someone else had tried to take picture without you wanting to and then put them on the internet, how would you feel? If it hadn’t been your decision to photograph your miscarriage and a harassing crowd of people had done it, how would you feel?
“In Genesis 2:7, the King James version reads, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Though Adam possessed the body of a human, he was not alive until his first breath. Pro-lifers will argue that a fetus is a person because it contains a human-like body and human DNA. However, a baby takes not its first breath until birth. Therefore, like Adam, they are not living human beings simply because of their form; they become living humans when they have taken their first breath.”
This whole story is disgusting. Fetuses should not be kicked, and Christians should not assume that every paper bag harbors the body of a pre-born.
Okay, now what if someone else had tried to take picture without you wanting to and then put them on the internet, how would you feel? If it hadn’t been your decision to photograph your miscarriage and a harassing crowd of people had done it, how would you feel?
If I was being victimized and the pictures were to show the horror of what I had gone through, i would not have a problem with it. I would want the story exposed!
“In Genesis 2:7, the King James version reads, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Though Adam possessed the body of a human, he was not alive until his first breath. Pro-lifers will argue that a fetus is a person because it contains a human-like body and human DNA. However, a baby takes not its first breath until birth. Therefore, like Adam, they are not living human beings simply because of their form; they become living humans when they have taken their first breath.”
Cameron, we’ve already been there, and done that. Read the posts in the link below:
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/04/happy_easter.
html#comments
But Bethany, surely you realize not everyone thinks that! They dont want to be in the papers or gawked at for having the abortion, it was clear they didnt want photos taken, why should their fetus’ picture be everywhere without their consent?
I think the whole thing is disgusting. It is sick that they felt they were in so much danger from the pro lifers that they had to kick the fetus into the shack. That is sick!
Vultures…
But Bethany, surely you realize not everyone thinks that! They dont want to be in the papers or gawked at for having the abortion, it was clear they didnt want photos taken, why should their fetus’ picture be everywhere without their consent?
What can I say? I’m sure those babies didn’t want to be aborted either.
Bethany…the fetus doesn’t have the ability to THINK about what it wants…
Bethany…the fetus doesn’t have the ability to THINK about what it wants…
Hmm that’s funny…I don’t think a newborn baby has that ability either. Do you support infanticide?
bethany, new borns CAN think and choose, try again.
bethany, a newborn has the ability to think…I do not support infantacide
Ok dan, in what ways does a newborn baby choose?
You mean in the same way that an unborn child can dislike different foods in the womb? Or the way a fetus can cry, or laugh in the womb? Or suck it’s thumb because he likes it? Oh and did I mention they struggle like mad when they’re being aborted?
I guess you’re right. They really can think and choose. Just not on the same level as you or I.
Do you support NAMBLA Beth?
bethany…when i said a fetus cannot think and choose you said “Hmm that’s funny…I don’t think a newborn baby has that ability either.”
which would mean you agreed with the thought that a fetus cannot think or choose….and in your next post you talk about all the ways a fetus can think and choose….
Do you support NAMBLA Beth?
No.
bethany…when i said a fetus cannot think and choose you said “Hmm that’s funny…I don’t think a newborn baby has that ability either.”
which would mean you agreed with the thought that a fetus cannot think or choose….and in your next post you talk about all the ways a fetus can think and choose….
In the way that he was talking about, no, a baby cannot think and choose, on the same level as you or I can. And they honestly can’t. Would you expect a newborn baby to vote?
However, on a lower level, they do think and choose. Like on their likes and dislikes. Their will to live.
That doesn’t mean that they’re less human however, just because they don’t think on the same level of development as an adult.
Sorry of this confuses you.
You must support NAMBLA Beth… pictures of children and such. They’re exposing the autrocities of having an adult only sex world
“You mean in the same way that an unborn child can dislike different foods in the womb? Or the way a fetus can cry, or laugh in the womb? Or suck it’s thumb because he likes it? Oh and did I mention they struggle like mad when they’re being aborted? ”
Ok, a fetus doesn’t laugh in the womb. I dont know where you got that.
As for struggling like mad when they’re being aborted, I think first you need to specify at what point the abortion is taking place (because a 7 day old embryo sure as hell doesnt struggle). Secondly, any apparent struggling is due to reflexes, not a conscious thought like “mommy, dont kill me”. That’s ludicrous.
You must support NAMBLA Beth… pictures of children and such. They’re exposing the autrocities of having an adult only sex world
Cameron, that’s ridiculous and you know it. Do you know some NAMBLA members who expose pictures in an effort try to protect children from harm?
Don’t worry I was not confused. I just think it is amusing that you change your arguement (and what you are willing to admit to be true) based on the arguement at hand.
very interesting
Don’t worry I was not confused. I just think it is amusing that you change your arguement (and what you are willing to admit to be true) based on the arguement at hand.
very interesting
I didn’t change my argument. Newborns CAN’T think or choose, not at all on the level that we can. This is what I was responding to in reply to Dan. There is no flip flopping here, I stick to what I said.
Can you ask a newborn baby if he wants to live or die?
If he can’t answer you, does that mean he wants to die?
This is your logic.
Obviously, the newborn baby can’t voice his opinion, and he doesn’t even have a well “thought out” opinion, like you or I would.
But they sure as heck have the ability to fight and struggle for their life if they’re being attacked, whether in the womb or out. Even the extremely young unborn children can do this.
Holly mighty morphing position Beth…. so what is it… is it OK to take pictures of things to advance your cause or not????
BTW… fetus’ nervous system is does not begin myalination until week twenty something. So, even though there is some grey matter, cell’s can’t even talk to each other and there is nothing beyond reflexive neuronal activity.
My, my, you pro-aborts are certainly dredging the depths to defend your abysmal ideology tonight. Now you’re trying to take eyes off the topic by accusing Bethany of being pro-NAMBLA? Rich.
One thing I love about having this blog is being able to post about the reality of abortion and the abortion industry. You’ve never read or seen this stuff before because MSM won’t tell the truth about abortion.
Interestingly, the worse I show, the more wildly you protest – too much, actually. You’ve staked a position, and by golly, if that means defending people who kick their dead preborn children, you’ll find a way.
Secondly, any apparent struggling is due to reflexes, not a conscious thought like “mommy, dont kill me”. That’s ludicrous.
I’m pretty darn sure that the newborn baby doesn’t have the ability to think “mommy don’t kill me either”. But I know it can fight and struggle to stay alive.
Bethany,
A mosquito doesn’t want to die either, but do you think twice before squashing it? No.
Interestingly, the worse I show, the more wildly you protest – too much, actually. You’ve staked a position, and by golly, if that means defending people who kick their dead preborn children, you’ll find a way.
Isn’t THAT the truth!
Bethany,
A mosquito doesn’t want to die either, but do you think twice before squashing it? No.
Wow, Molly, human beings are no more important than mosquitos to you? That’s scary.
Jill,
all living things struggle to keep living, its an evolutionary trait. This doesnt really mean anything.
maybe we protest jill, because it is tasteless. absolutely tasteless.
The “news” you post here is usually slanted. Like today. You don’t know why those people went to get abortions. Since it was “late term” (which is NOT a medical term) it had to be for health problems. Those people probably WANTED their baby. They were probably going through hell. And the pro lifers made it even worse with their tasteless scare tactics.
Bethany,
I didnt say human life is less important than a mosquito’s, I simply dont thing that the “struggle for life” defense is convincing because all living things do that.
Come up with a better one.
ill,
all living things struggle to keep living, its an evolutionary trait. This doesnt really mean anything.
So it must be ok to kill newborn babies, and …well, basically any human being, based on your logic, then.
Bethany,
I didnt say human life is less important than a mosquito’s, I simply dont thing that the “struggle for life” defense is convincing because all living things do that.
Come up with a better one.
I don’t need to. I was replying to someone who stated (incorrectly) that fetuses don’t want to live. I said something that proved otherwise.
What else is there to say? Nothing.
Bethany,
no, I’m only saying that the mere fact that something struggles for life doesnt mean that we should be required to give it life at any expense. That is all I am putting forth.
Bethany,
no, I’m only saying that the mere fact that something struggles for life doesnt mean that we should be required to give it life at any expense. That is all I am putting forth.
When that “something” is a human, it makes a big difference.
Jill, i am not condoning them for kicking a fetus. That is sick.
I just also think it is sick that they felt they were in so much danger from the pro lifers that they HAD to do that. I think it is amusing how you ALWAYS ignore some things we bring up. Like how disgusting and tasteless it is to have so many pictures of aborted fetuses at pro life rallies, or carrying around a miscarried child at a pro life rally.
SICK.
A fetus living inside and depending on a woman’s body for support should not have more rights than the woman herself.
If a fetus had a parasite living inside of it that was feeding off of its nutrients, and ultimately putting the fetus’ health at risk, would you say that the mother had every right to have a medical procedure to remove the parasite?
I just also think it is sick that they felt they were in so much danger from the pro lifers that they HAD to do that.
Perhaps it wasn’t so much that they were “afraid” but that they were “ashamed”.
If a fetus had a parasite living inside of it that was feeding off of its nutrients, and ultimately putting the fetus’ health at risk, would you say that the mother had every right to have a medical procedure to remove the parasite?
This old argument again?
http://www.l4l.org/library/notparas.html
Well, that’s enough death talk for me tonight. I need to make dinner. Hope you all take care and have a good night.
bethany:
This post is late, but I am having computer problems.
A baby will struggle if you choke it, try to move itself so it can breathe if it is underwater. a baby can try to live. a fetus cannot. a 9 week old fetus cannot try to live if it is in danger of dying.
Bethany,
I think the only problem with your statement is that you use the word “want” in reference to a fetus. My point is, a fetus no more “wants” to live than does a fly, it’s simply acting.
Mars, 6:53p: “Tasteless”? Is that the worst you think about this? Not disgusting, vile, animalistic? People who walk in to an abortion mill to commit a late-term abortion, which is a two-day process, are not having health problems. They’re having severe problems with ruthless, completely ignorant self-centeredness. Aborting their baby in a hotel room? So much for safe, legal abortions. Bringing their baby back to the mill in a paper bag in their trunk? Demented.
And all those descriptors apply to their defenders, too.
Behtany,
I didn’t define the fetus as a parasite, I am simply making a comparison. The reason I personally would be alright with removing a parasite from a fetus is because 1) I don’t think the parasite would know the difference and 2) (if the fetus were mine and I wanted to carry it to term) my reasons for removing the parasite from my fetus would be take precedence over the parasite’s effort to survive because it is depending on something that belongs to me for life — my rights outweigh those of the parasite
How do you know the baby was “aborted” and not miscarried?
I’m just curious, not fighting here
So if they are committing illegal acts why arent there any police there too? why didn’t anyone call the cops? oh…not one of those prolifers called the cops…could it be…because they were doing it for LEGAL reasons?
If it truely was an Illegal abortion, that is sick and sad. But what I am saying, and that you don’t seem to get, is that it could be for health reasons. and that would make the protesters the sick and twisted ones.
i have one quick question
the title of this is “Junk in the Trunk” You are referring to a fetus in the trunk of the car. if a fetus is so precious how can you call it junk?
Oh, Mars, that’s clever, but let’s not drift.
It’s obvious that these people don’t think it was junk.
Question:
If abortion was made illegal (as many here feel it should be) what would you propose happen to all of those unwanted children.
Ideally they would all be adopted by loving families who could care and provide for them, but that’s not exaclty realistic.
And making it illegal won’t end abortion (there would still be women inducing miscarriages, and, by your standards, murdering babies). Should that be considered homicide? How would we enforce that?
sorry, i was just curious about that…back to the subject at hand
no harm, no foul Mars my friend
Molly, it would probably be homicide/suicide.
yes, Mars, I’m sure in that sort of world women would be stoned to death for such actions (after all, its the life of the fetus that is important, the mother’s health and wellbeing naturally comes second…)
well of course, women are only good for child bearing. if we can’t do it we may as well die trying…
hahaha, sound like youve got your head screwed on straight.
seriously, where did everyone go? I thought things were getting interesting?
I guess it’s time for me to go do something productive too
It is incredibly stupid. One. Junk in the Trunk refers to a fat butt…but she uses it to refer to a fetus….yuck
sorry my dad called…ha ha ha
Molly, 7:12p, asked: “How do you know the baby was “aborted” and not miscarried?”
Hope clinic is an infamous late-term abortion mill. That’s all it does. Look it up on the web.
Furthemore, when a mother miscarries a late-term baby at home, she does not go to an abortion mill. She goes to a hospital ER or to her ob/gyn.
Plus, this was this mother’s second day in a row back at the mill.
Mars, 7:15p, asked: “So if they are committing illegal acts why arent there any police there too?”
Who said this was illegal? These late-term abortions are perfectly legal. Don’t you know what you support?
The only illegality would have been if the baby were aborted alive and they killed him or her.
Molly, 7:22p, said: “If abortion was made illegal (as many here feel it should be) what would you propose happen to all of those unwanted children.”
Molly, are you saying your solution to unwanted children is killing them? And how many pregnancies start out unwanted and end up major blessings?
“Molly, 7:22p, said: “If abortion was made illegal (as many here feel it should be) what would you propose happen to all of those unwanted children.”
Molly, are you saying your solution to unwanted children is killing them? And how many pregnancies start out unwanted and end up major blessings?”
I think it comes down to that people want sex without consequences — If you want to call getting pregnant a consequence. Go ahead, be offended – but it’s true.
Molly, 7:29p, said: “after all, its the life of the fetus that is important, the mother’s health and wellbeing naturally comes second…”
Wrong, Molly, pro-lifers love them both. We don’t look at an unplanned pregnancy and condone killing the baby as you do. We love babies, and we love their mothers. And we prove it. What are you doing besides promoting abortion? That’s so easy.
late abortions millls? gimmie a break.
I personally stand outside of one every Saturday and watch girls drive in from out of state to have an abortion at 24 weeks.
And the reasons they give? I’m not ready. I’m too young (tho they are usually over 21)…
Only once did I ever hear anyone say that they wanted the baby but had to have an abortion for health reasons.
One woman stood and rubbed her swollen belly and admitted that the baby was kicking…then she went in and murdered it. Her reason? She wasn’t ready to become a mother…
Once again, people who still believe the earth is flat.
The evidence is in front of you, and you still deny it.
Even if this woman was on deaths door, which by the way she didn’t appear to be, she could have picked up her child and held her head high, then carried it into the clinic. You kick soccer balls, not children in lunch bags.
Rae, good for you. When you see it, you call it.
Again, lots of guts to admit when something is wrong even if it means siding with “the enemy”.
I am gaining respect for you (she says as if Rae is just salivating at the thought of receiving her respect..)
This is what Valerie means by an honest debate. Seeing the truth even when it means “giving” a little.
Bethany is right…it does feel good to agree with you on something.
mk
this new having to sign in is a pain in the butt, this is the THIRD time i’ve had to retype this message.
Yes Jill there area unwanted children out there. Look at all the children in foster care, not to mention the ones that aren’t in foster care. I’m not saying that abortion is the solution. I work with a lot of unwanted children and it makes me extremely sad. Don’t get me wrong, i work with a lot of wanted children too.
Sorry i had some spelling errors in there everyone.. opps
My point is, a fetus no more “wants” to live than does a fly, it’s simply acting.
And the oscar goes to the fetii who appears to want to live the most…
Thunderous applause…
“I am gaining respect for you (she says as if Rae is just salivating at the thought of receiving her respect..)”
Eh?
*tilts head*
Got here a little late, and everyone seems to be gone…
Ryan,
Your posts were delightful.
Bethany, always a pleasure.
HisMan, missed you.
SOMG, didn’t miss you.
Danielle, same old same old.
Cameron, I won’t even dignify you by acknowledging you.
Molly, Mars, Jana…welcome. Now if only you’d say something we haven’t heard before.
I find the evolution of this last month and a half very enlightening.
The pro-choice/abortion movement has gone from saying that it is not a human being, it is a blob of cells. To
It is a human being, just not a person. To
It is a person but what difference does that make, it still life versus person autonomy. To
It isn’t a person, it’s a parasite. To
Eating them is okay. I would never tell a person what to put into their own body. To
It’s the pro-life people’s fault that those people were forced to play rugby with a baby-in-bag.
It just keeps gettin’ better…
And not one of you sees in inanity of it all.
Ahhh, what us pro-lifers do for entertainment.
Ryan had it right. Paintball.
Maybe we could use dead babies as targets and then put it up on Jill’s site so that we could somehow get blamed for the whole thing.
The world has gone stark raving mad.
mk
Rae,
I guess I just assumed that your life’s greatest desire was to earn my respect :)
After I wrote that you were gaining my respect, I realized how pompous that sounded. Like if you really care whether I respect you or not…
mk
I don’t feel very welcome by your statement MK. I feel it was kind of rude actually. Just so you know, I have heard all the pro-life stances before too. In fact one of the stances I have heard from people who are pro-life is a religious stance.
Respect is nice, and I appreciate that you feel you can respect me, but it’s not that terribly important.
But thank you.
It a point of view I hear a lot.
No one seems to be reading my comments..
I’ll have to say something mean and intelligent…
Ryan, I noticed your comments and I appreciated them…just wanted to let you know! :)
Jana R,
I don’t feel very welcome by your statement MK. I feel it was kind of rude actually. Just so you know, I have heard all the pro-life stances before too. In fact one of the stances I have heard from people who are pro-life is a religious stance.
Then I won’t bore you by repeating them.
I wasn’t trying to be rude, just pointing out that the whole personal autonomy, fetii, pro choice not pro abortion, thing gets old after a while.
Can’t blame a girl for hoping that new blood will bring new ideas.
mk
My post must have gotten lost in all the rigamarole. I doubt, Bethany, that you would feel a good motive is enough reason to show pictures of cut up fetuses and miscarriages when you discredit the motives of women every day when they choose an abortion. Motives become a little trickier when you say they justify some terrible actions but not others.
Here’s my post again just in case you missed it. The pro-life rallies and members who hold up bloody pictures to elicit an emotional response are no better than the pornographers at NAMBLA. Both are disgusting pictures of young humans that serve no legitimate purpose.
I’m slightly put off by the fact that no one knew for sure why these women were going to the clinic, and assumed it was an abortion. Miscarriage, anyone? It’s likely they put the remains in a sack to be examined, just to make sure all the parts were expelled from the uterus.
It is sad that they resorted to kicking the fetus inside to hide it from the protesters, but I think it says more about the pro-life movement than the pro-choice movement. They were so harrassed and afraid of someone commercializing a baby they may have wanted that they panicked and did what probably seemed necessary at the time. If life is so precious, why parade around pictures of death to make your point, to show how disgusting abortion is, to show how ugly a process it can be? Wouldn’t the message be less mitigated by these hypocrisies if in fact pro lifers dedicated their time and effort to promote what they say they are all about–life?
The use of pictures will never make sense to me, particularly in public places like the student union at my university and the public roads by these clinics. I don’t really have a problem with them being on the internet–just like pornography, I have a choice not to look at it on the net.
I’m going to start calling these pictures of mangled fetuses and the clammoring to get a better shot at the remains falling out of the bag “fetal porn”. Not in the sense it gets a sexual response, but in the sense that the images serve to provoke a strong emotional response and are used ad nauseum to promote a political movement with no real regard to the fetus in the content of the picture whatsoever. Jill, that makes you a fetal pornographer. Glad to know you have to use pictures/digustingly explicit stories to make your point. But that’s only because you realize a scientific or objective basis will never be enough to convince anyone to be pro-life. It only takes emotional pot-shots, objectifying the fetus and the women in question.
MK: “its murder” “what about adoption” “dont have sex if you dont want kids” and “the bible says its wrong”
All get old too.
i keep hoping you will actually make me think for once. But I dont usually have to, so I just use the old ones over and over and over and over and over.
MK- I agree, the same old same old does get old. But all I said was that there are unwanted children out there and that I work with some… MMmmmmm maybe I said more, I can’t remember, it has been a long day.
Mars,
If you read all of the posts from the last month you’d know that there have been many new things talked about. On both sides. Perhaps the fault does not lie with our responses, but with your arguments. If you would actually think for once, you might inspire us to rebutt with some new stuff of our own.
Jana,
I stand corrected. You are exempt. You did not spew out the same old stuff. Mea culpa. I just had to read 200 posts to catch up and was speed reading…sorry.
mk
MK- its all good, there are a lot of posts. I do however have a lot of the same view points as the “same old same old” ;)
My post must have gotten lost in all the rigamarole. I doubt, Bethany, that you would feel a good motive is enough reason to show pictures of cut up fetuses and miscarriages when you discredit the motives of women every day when they choose an abortion. Motives become a little trickier when you say they justify some terrible actions but not others.
No, a good intent is not enough, because you can be sincere, but sincerely wrong. There is more to it than that.
However, I believe that exposing something that people deny exists is imperative!
I don’t see anyone denying that children are being hurt by NAMBLA. But there are PLENTY of people who are saying that “no one is hurt by abortion”. We have to prove to people by SHOWING them that it’s a lie. A picture is worth a thousand words. That is just one difference.
Here’s my post again just in case you missed it. The pro-life rallies and members who hold up bloody pictures to elicit an emotional response are no better than the pornographers at NAMBLA. Both are disgusting pictures of young humans that serve no legitimate purpose.
There is no purpose to any pictures from the pornographers at NAMBLA for several reasons…a couple of them being, 1.) The people taking the pictures have no intent of helping anyone, they only serve their own sexual desires.
2.) The pictures do not help anyone. They don’t prove anything.
The difference in fetal pictures is:
The people showing pictures of what pro-choice people continually say is untrue. That there is a baby being hurt by abortion. If they continue to convince women that babies are blobs, we are forced to prove otherwise. These pictures may be hard to look at but they are TRUTH, not the lies that the pro-choice crowd likes to promote. A picture is worth more than a thousand planned parenthood lies.
People are changing their minds due to seeing pictures. They are learning and being educated about what’s inside the womb, and what cruelty unborn babies are subjected to. As a result of those pictures, less babies are being aborted… women do sometimes change their mind after seeing those pictures. Maybe not all women, but saving a few babies is better than saving none at all.
I’m slightly put off by the fact that no one knew for sure why these women were going to the clinic, and assumed it was an abortion. Miscarriage, anyone? It’s likely they put the remains in a sack to be examined, just to make sure all the parts were expelled from the uterus.
Let me direct you back to Jill’s post where she addressed this:
“Molly, 7:12p, asked: “How do you know the baby was “aborted” and not miscarried?”
Hope clinic is an infamous late-term abortion mill. That’s all it does. Look it up on the web.
Furthemore, when a mother miscarries a late-term baby at home, she does not go to an abortion mill. She goes to a hospital ER or to her ob/gyn.
Plus, this was this mother’s second day in a row back at the mill.”
I’m going to start calling these pictures of mangled fetuses and the clammoring to get a better shot at the remains falling out of the bag “fetal porn”.
Anyone who sees it that way is one sick puppy.
Jana R,
That’s all right. I just get crabby at nite. I’m really a morning person.
I’m like those teachers that are mean on the first day of school, but after the rules are understood she lets you have squirt gun fights and bring your dog to school.
But don’t you dare tell the other new kids. I have a reputation to keep you know!
Peace,
Talk again tomorrow.
mk
MK- I have heard that as a teacher you “shouldn’t smile till Christmas” Kids need to know you’re the boss and they need to learn to respect you….
Why are pro-lifers against late term abortions? They’re to save the woman’s life. What do you think women just wake up one morning when they’re seven, eight months pregnant and decided, “Hey, I don’t want this kid after all?”
Would you rather the woman died? Do you really think that it’s such an easy decision to make?
Danielle: Should I post the links to those photos of what types of fetuses are aborted late-term due to defects? Or would that gross them out too much?
Naw, Rae, they like gross pictures. Go for it.
Here are some examples as to why women get late term abortions (and it’s not to fit in the prom dress):
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/PRENATAL/PREN035.html
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED034.html
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED204.html
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED023.html
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED026.html
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED029.html
I wonder if you’ll get any responses, Rae.
It seems that when pro-lifers think birth defects as a reason for abortion they seem to only think of DS and not the above pictures.
Bethany, you parse posts so well.
About the miscarriage issue: that post was made before Jill talked about it’s activities (which I still doubt, but whatever) and I merely reposted my post in its entirety without editing out parts that had been discussed. But nice try focusing on the most minor part of my post.
About the fetal porn (the main arg in my post you never answered) : If you look at the sentence directly after the quote you took from my post, you would see the words,
“Not in the sense it gets a sexual response, but in the sense that the images serve to provoke a strong emotional response and are used ad nauseum to promote a political movement with no real regard to the fetus in the content of the picture whatsoever.”
And yeah, those people are sick.
Let me take the words you wrote about NAMBLA and make them apply to you.
“There is no purpose to any pictures from the pornographers at ::pro life rallies:: for several reasons…a couple of them being, 1.) The people taking the pictures have no intent of helping anyone, they only serve their own ::political:: desires.
2.) The pictures do not help anyone. They don’t prove anything”
I changed two words and voila! You are no better than NAMBLA.
It’s a totally different matter when pro-lifers are like paparazzi waiting outside clinics to take snapshots of women who walk in or remains going into the clinic than you taking pictures of your miscarriage. Number one, you have the legal rights over the pictures of your body and your deceased child, and no one could (or at least, should) have taken those pictures without your consent. Number two, it kind of contradicts the pro-life movement to be so centered around pictures of death that elicit a strong emotional response when their message should primarily be about life. It only speaks volumes about the real evidence to be pro-life when you have to rely mainly on “shock-and-awe” pictures or something that would make someone’s stomach turn. You seriously can’t think of a better way to communicate the message?
In debate we call this “disaster porn”. Baudrillard talks about it too. The term was coined when the whole Yugoslavia breakdown happened and there were media people crawling around Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovinia taking pictures of genocide, mass burials, rape victims, and similar crimes against humanity. HERE’S THE RELEVANT PART:
Even though the pictures were intended to show the world what was going on and help the victims, the people involved felt INVADED by media and felt that it entailed a complete lack of the right to privacy and included dehumanization insofar as the rape of their town’s women was crammed into a 2 minute segment on the nightly news and never brought up again. It trivializes experiences and packages them into easily consumable pictures that not only harms the individuals in question, but FURTHER desensitizes those consuming the media and makes them feel as if VIEWING THE PICTURES SOLVED THE PROBLEM.
In summary, pro-lifers using mangled fetus pictures to change a few minds is on par with NAMBLA porn and the invasion of privacy through media in the former Yugoslavia. All are used for selfish purposes, two have good intentions, and one goes without criticism. No longer.
STOP fetal pornography. Emotional appeals will not work when science and objective knowledge will not support your political ideology.
I’m confused about one thing. (okay – I’m always confused, but on this subject…..)
Rae and Danielle – The site you linked to was facisnating. I kinda surfed around and actually got some answers to a heart problem that my Mom had. The pictures were not disgusting, at least not to me. I’ve seen worse in the animal hospitals.
Anywho…to my question…
When it comes to life of the Mother doesn’t the Mother have the procedure done at a hospital? Not an abortion clinic? Because if the Mother’s life is in danger, then having access to a fully equiped hospital would be better for the Mother. That way if there is serious complications it can be dealt with immediately and not wait for an ambulance.
And – (okay, I had 2 questions). If the pregnancy has to end because of serious fetal deformities, doesn’t the same as above apply? Why would a woman, who is having serious complications, or is going to need serious counseling (counseling because of loosing the baby due to deformities.) why would they go to the clinic?
I am only bringing this up because when I was in my 3rd pregnancy (#1 live baby, #2 miscarriage) I was afraid of a late miscarriage again. Since miscarriages that happen so late are usually because of severe deformity they kept a close eye on the baby. I was completely under the impression that if they detected something severe and it was obvious the baby wouldn’t survive either birth or the pregnancy that I could choose to abort and have it done at the hospital. St. Vincent’s hospital to be specific.
Now, I do know that state laws are different, but how is it for the Mother’s benefit to be at a clinic and not a hospital if her life is in danger or the baby is in danger. Doesn’t make sense to me.
I could be wrong though….. Just a thought.
oh – Just to note… None of the miscarriages were because of deformities, so I never had to find out 100% for sure if I was right it would be at the hospital. They never did find a specific medical reason. Several theories, but nothing proven.
Valerie:
Oh I totally agree with the whole “late term abortions done in a hospital thing”. That’s where they ought to be done and as far as I know that is where they are done because they are so dangerous.
My mom had several (I’m thinking a half-dozen or so?) miscarriages before I was born, but they were all very early on miscarriages, which indicates that there were genetic problems that made the embryo incompatible with life or something.
I don’t think the pictures are particularly disgusting as I find them interesting. I surfed around that site as well, it’s really fasctinating. I’ve always had an interest in pathology.
Rae and Valerie,
You do agree, however, that these pictures, while fascinating in nature, should not be used to increase the political capital of a certain group or used to emotionally propel a movement.
Right?
The reality that abortion is murder will not change. Therefore, things said in previous posts about abortion are still true and applicable to this article as well, so, I’ll repeat myself, with some editing license taken of course.
You have to realize that pro-deathers are not driven by logic. They are driven by the lust for power, perhaps abortion followers without realizing it, but its leaders and initiaters, guilty as hell.
They are no different than the poor man who fantasizes about taking the rich man’s watch without regard to how or why the rich man acquired the watch; while poor materially, they lack no prejudice. They feel totally justified in their position, not becasue of logic but in some sinister form of perverted self-righteousness not thoroughly arrived at, at having simply arrived. Perhaps this itself feeds the power demon inside them, at just being able to arrive, at joining up: “I’m in the club now and no one will every kick me out, not even me”.
They reject anyone or anything in authority that would tell them how to live including God Himself and it’s generally masked in the facade of women’s rights. Which when you analyze it, it is a very parasitical way of thinking. I mean, they kill unborn baby woman too don’t they? How dare they use the issue of abortion to bolster their sense of self-hood. Again, the perverted, twisted and demented logic shows its ugly head from every angle of the looking glass. Ah, but they see in a mirror darkly? No, the light’s off.
So, when they acknowledge the horror of a baby cooking video or talk about how bad kicking a dead baby in a bag is, they really are acknowledging the horror of abortion since to not do so would be illogical. What they fail to realize is that in doing so, they for a moment remove their masks, and their K-9 fangs show through the sheepskin, scaring even themselves. Does a werewolf know who he is?
So, I ask myself, if we disparge ourselves of the silliness and really take a deep look, what is abortion? Here’s what I, HisMan, think it is:
Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator.
Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, to show forth His glory, it negates God as redeemer.
Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy.
Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it’s earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it’s earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive.
Abortion’s desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness, decay, death.
Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it’s solution; annihilation, it’s goal; death, it’s dream; breaking God’s heart, it’s vision, satan’s ultimate power. Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of satan are everywhere to be found in its performance.
Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom.
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God.
Yes, Abortion is satan’s feeble attempt at killing God himself, for Abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him……for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.
It did not work at Calvary. It will not work here.
And who is this person named Abortion? It is everyone who has committd it, chose it, performed it, and supported it.
Thank God, Abortion can be transformed by saying: “Lord forgive me, for I knew not what I had done”. Amen.
His Man, profound post.
Danielle, 10:52p, said: “Why are pro-lifers against late term abortions? They’re to save the woman’s life. What do you think women just wake up one morning when they’re seven, eight months pregnant and decided, ‘Hey, I don’t want this kid after all?’ Would you rather the woman died?”
Danielle, back your claim up. You won’t be able to because it’s false. Find one reason for the abortion of a late term (post-viability) abortion. There are none. If a mother’s life is truly endangered, a baby can be delivered alive as quickly or quicker than aborted dead. In fact, some of the same techniques are used to deliver a live baby as to abort a dead baby.
Jen C., 4/10, 11:24p, said: ” you have the legal rights over the pictures of your body and your deceased child”
“Deceased child”? You’re slipping, Jen.
About the use of photos of aborted children: Who wins if they go away? You pro-aborts.
Pictures have been used by social justice movements since pictures were invented. Pictures stopped child labor. A picture finally stopped the Viet Nam War. Pictures of a mangled, murdered black boy named Emmett Till launched the modern civil rights movement in 1955. Jet Magazine published them and sold out. Pictures of the Holocaust help us “never forget,” as do news reels taken by Allied Forces when we entered those gates.
The only reason you don’t like these particular social justice pictures is because you participate in the Abortion Holocaust. You condone it. You help it. You further it.
And do I care whether or not a mother killing her child wants her act immortalized? Not one iota.
Well, Jen C,
I gotta hand it to ya…I asked for some new material and you certainly managed to come up with it. Your fetal porn tangent certainly falls into the “original” category. Ridiculous, but definitely original…
Good work.
mk
Bethany, you parse posts so well.
Thank you, Jen.
About the miscarriage issue: that post was made before Jill talked about it’s activities (which I still doubt, but whatever) and I merely reposted my post in its entirety without editing out parts that had been discussed. But nice try focusing on the most minor part of my post.
I really don’t think I focused on a minor part of your post, Jen.
About the fetal porn (the main arg in my post you never answered) : If you look at the sentence directly after the quote you took from my post, you would see the words,
“Not in the sense it gets a sexual response, but in the sense that the images serve to provoke a strong emotional response and are used ad nauseum to promote a political movement with no real regard to the fetus in the content of the picture whatsoever.”
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t even correlate with pornography. Not at all. It’s not even remotely the same as innocent people using these pictures in order to provoke rightful indignation against evil. People who show pornography do not to do in order to make people sorrowful for the sins that are committed against children, or to raise awareness, and hopefully bring an end to the crime, or at least reduce the crime. They do so to provoke sexual desire in the disgusting people who look at it, and to encourage perverse people desire to continue engaging in acts of child porn, or encourage them to begin doing it in the first place. And that is the completely opposite effect, when compared to what people looking at the pictures of unborn babies who have been murdered, is it not?
(And if it’s such a sensitive thing to you, by the way, why are you not indignant against the ones who actually mutilate these babies, and not the ones who are simply letting you know it happens?)
And yeah, those people are sick.
Let me take the words you wrote about NAMBLA and make them apply to you.
“There is no purpose to any pictures from the pornographers at ::pro life rallies:: for several reasons…a couple of them being, 1.) The people taking the pictures have no intent of helping anyone, they only serve their own ::political:: desires.
2.) The pictures do not help anyone. They don’t prove anything”
I changed two words and voila! You are no better than NAMBLA.
Well except the part where they do not help anyone…because these fetal pictures have been proven to change the minds of some women who have considered abortion. Have child pornography pictures changed the minds of perverts and made them want to protect children instead of victimize them?
Also, you had to attempt to change the entire meaning of my first sentence in order to make it work in your eyes? I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but I could easily change the meaning of any of your posts by changing words, into a way that I’m definite you would not agree with. Would you like me to give it a try?
It’s a totally different matter when pro-lifers are like paparazzi waiting outside clinics to take snapshots of women who walk in or remains going into the clinic than you taking pictures of your miscarriage. Number one, you have the legal rights over the pictures of your body and your deceased child, and no one could (or at least, should) have taken those pictures without your consent. Number two, it kind of contradicts the pro-life movement to be so centered around pictures of death that elicit a strong emotional response when their message should primarily be about life. It only speaks volumes about the real evidence to be pro-life when you have to rely mainly on “shock-and-awe” pictures or something that would make someone’s stomach turn. You seriously can’t think of a better way to communicate the message?
Is fetal abortion photography the only way we the pro-life community shares our pro-life views? I wasn’t aware of this.
In debate we call this “disaster porn”. Baudrillard talks about it too. The term was coined when the whole Yugoslavia breakdown happened and there were media people crawling around Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovinia taking pictures of genocide, mass burials, rape victims, and similar crimes against humanity. HERE’S THE RELEVANT PART:
Even though the pictures were intended to show the world what was going on and help the victims, the people involved felt INVADED by media and felt that it entailed a complete lack of the right to privacy and included dehumanization insofar as the rape of their town’s women was crammed into a 2 minute segment on the nightly news and never brought up again. It trivializes experiences and packages them into easily consumable pictures that not only harms the individuals in question, but FURTHER desensitizes those consuming the media and makes them feel as if VIEWING THE PICTURES SOLVED THE PROBLEM.
Read Jill’s post again:
“Pictures have been used by social justice movements since pictures were invented. Pictures stopped child labor. A picture finally stopped the Viet Nam War. Pictures of a mangled, murdered black boy named Emmett Till launched the modern civil rights movement in 1955. Jet Magazine published them and sold out. Pictures of the Holocaust help us “never forget,” as do news reels taken by Allied Forces when we entered those gates.”
In summary, pro-lifers using mangled fetus pictures to change a few minds is on par with NAMBLA porn and the invasion of privacy through media in the former Yugoslavia.
Really? In what way does NAMBLA porn help children?
All are used for selfish purposes, two have good intentions, and one goes without criticism. No longer.
I don’t consider exposing what abortionists and mothers are doing to their children to victimize them as a selfish agenda. Sorry. If there were newborn babies being murdered and people denied it was happening, you can bet I’d be supportive of people showing pictures of the victimized newborns too, to prove it.
STOP fetal pornography. Emotional appeals will not work when science and objective knowledge will not support your political ideology.
They do work. They do support what we believe. They do change minds.
It’s not pornography, in any sense of the word.
Hi JenC,
very, very good insight …. but there is a political ‘problem’ here and I don’t know how else to approach this ………………
Instead of perceiving of abortion as neutral and thus scientifically-justifiable, pregnancy itself is a period of extreme emotional conflict. So ‘the choice’ decision-to-abort appears more as an emotional reaction rather than a detached rational one. THE difficulty still exists that this period of emotional fluctuation is also the very time when the human species is fertile ….. it is not surprising to me that the majority (not all) of pro-choicers are between 18 and 30 years old.
Pro-lifers tend to be younger or older than this group. The pics/videos work for the pro-lifers to reinforce their resolve to end this practice. They are also the people who vote …. and will alter their voting to be in-line with their perceptions. [Why Jill is highly involved in the political process, too.]
Because this is a highly-charged emotional issue … the pics may become too much for the viewer, and scoff at their validity …. anything to prevent queasiness! Most pro-lifers think: ‘finally … a reaction that is human and not robot-like! this IS NOT cool – much, much closer to cold!’
These periods of extreme emotional upheaval are directly tied to periods of high usage of zinc in humans. Several other people on both sides have scoffed at such. Can’t force these ideas on anyone … guess they prefer the fight – pics and all?
Rae, those pictures are sad. But who are you to choose who is worthy of life?
Do you think that Elephant Man (Joseph Merrick) should not have been allowed to live? He contributed much to the world while he was here, and he wanted to live, despite his deformaties. He eventually did die by suffocation on his pillow at night, but his life, while lived, was not in vain.
You may not consider people who are deformed to have value. However, they know their value, and they realize that people like you look on the outward appearance instead of the spiritual appearance of a person. They recognize by your pro-abortion comments that you let your revulsion for anything different or “disgusting” in your eyes to make that person’s life of lesser value than your own.
Here’s a poem by Joseph Merrick:
“Tis true my form is something odd,
But blaming me is blaming God;
Could I create myself anew
I would not fail in pleasing you.
If I could reach from pole to pole
Or grasp the ocean with a span,
I would be measured by the soul;
The mind’s the standard of the man.”
A poem often read by Joseph.
Notice he didn’t say he wanted to change his looks for himself. He would do it to “please you”, referring to most people who would look at his appearance and think of him as a monster, rather than a man.
He wished that people would recognize his worth by his SOUL, not by his appearance. It’s sad that people put so much emphasis on looks and actually believe that is what gives them worth.
Once again,His Man comes along and sums the entire debate up with a terrific post.I love that one.Gonna run it off on the printer.
Oh and Rae, another thought. Some of the pictures you provided were of babies who had no chance of survival once born.
Why not let nature take it’s course, like Reverend Run did with his baby?
And by the way, what about Down’s syndrome? Do you advocate abortions for Down’s syndrome babies? How about abortions for Spina Bifida? These are also babies that are aborted…do they deserve to die because they are different? Their differences are not even nearly as bad as the ones in the pictures you posted. What do you think?
By the way, I’d like you to check out this site:
http://www.friendlyfaces.org
Do these children deserve to die because they are different?
And should we kill all terminally ill or diseased and deformed (BORN) children because they don’t have much of a chance of living a happy and normal life anyway? Would it be an act of mercy to end their life?
Yes Bethany,I was thinking the same thing.I was reading about another couple whose child was born with severe birth defects.His parents chose not to abort him.When he was finally born,he lived a while.The couple photographed him and held him.He finally passed away,but the couple said that they wouldn’t have had it any other way.
Posted by: Jen C at April 11, 2007 12:17 AM
“to increase the political capital of a certain group or used to emotionally propel a movement”
“become disgusting when used for gaining political capitol for a certain group.”
Pictures of criminal activities have been used many times. The pictures that Rae and I were talking about were pictures used by pro-choice members in an attempt to show why some late term abortions may be performed. Do you disagree with this form of education? Is it all pictures that are used for some sort of political/group gain that you disagree with or just ones that deal with abortion? Many politians have lost support because of pictures of them having affairs. Did you call that politician porn?
The pictures that were taken at this abortion clinic were to show people what really goes on at these places. I think we have already shown that late term abortions for medical reasons are not done at clinics, they are done at hospitals. There are laws on how old a pre born baby can be in order to be aborted. Was this mill in violations of those laws? If so, wouldn’t that be abuse to the Mother? Was she told it was illegal to do that? Was she informed of the medical risks? Also, considering the atrocities that happen here:
I would think that everyone would want people to be on the look out. If someone had taken pictures of what was going on at that clinic perhaps that poor woman would not have to had to be in a coma and loose her uterus. I would think that everyone would want that.
But according to you, pictures of such activities would be porn. Even though it may save a womans life. You don’t care about that, you only care about your agenda. I used pictures of children (taken w/out parental consent) in order to show authorities that the children were being abused. A two year old had adult bite marks all over his back. A 4 year old had cigarette burns on his upper arm. Was that child porn? Should I have just let that abuse happen because I didn’t have parental permission?
Your arguments are rediculous considering all political/special interest groups use pictures and other forms of media to show a point. You show your bias when you don’t mention all the other times this is done. Sometimes people have to wait outside buildings to show illegal activities. I for one will not stop it. Because if you stop one group from doing this, then you have to stop all groups. I view life more important than my political agenda. Which is why I didn’t loose it when Rae and Danielle posted their pictures. Everyone has a right to educate the public.
Posted by: Rae at April 10, 2007 11:51 PM
“I’ve always had an interest in pathology.”
I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist or a medical examiner. But, my grades were never good enough…
I think Lando and Liam are the same person.[just went back and read all posts]
Bethany:
I do not agree with aborting fetuses with Down’s Syndrome and spinal bifida. I don’t support abortion in the case of treatable disorders like Spinal bifida nor do I support it because of a child being born with Down’s.
The pictures I posted were of fetuses that were either already dead in the womb (and would eventually start decaying and become a breeding ground for bacteria and infections) or that couldn’t be birthed normally due to the deformities.
“And should we kill all terminally ill or diseased and deformed (BORN) children because they don’t have much of a chance of living a happy and normal life anyway? Would it be an act of mercy to end their life?”
And no, I don’t think they should do that, although depending on the pain caused by the deformity or disease it might (note I said “MIGHT”) be more merciful to euthanize them.
For example, Harlequin fetus:
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijd/vol1n1/harlequin.xml
Babies born with this disorder often die shortly after birth due to starvation and dehydration (due to not being able to eat properly and the skin not being able to hold in water). Do you think it’s fair to give birth to a child who will die in such a horrible way? Or if you do give birth, do you think it’s fair to the child to have it’s few hours or days after birth be nothing but agony?
Of course, things like harlequin fetus are rare and are definitely extreme.
Rae –
In your example, harlequin fetus, I have a thought. I do understand where you are coming from with them dying in pain and agony. However I think the feeling of Love would be a good thing for any baby to experience; even if for a short while. With technology, we can ease the pain and agony. This way the baby gets to be held by his/her mother which is the only person the baby really knows and will be comforted in her arms. He/she will feel the joy of love before death. I can’t think of anything better than that.
Valerie:
I do see where you are coming from, but allow me to say that sometimes even with the best technology, pain cannot be properly handled and though I’m not sure (so don’t quote me on this), you’d think the amount of morphine they would have to pump into a baby born with harelquin fetus would cause respiratory failure anyway?
I also look at it from the point of view from the mother, seeing her child be in so much pain and suffering, I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t be able to stand seeing my child be in that much pain and not being able to do much about it…but alas, I am nothing more than a coward (as HisMan has so delicately pointed out).
Though I do agree, allowing the baby to die in it’s mother’s or father’s arms could do some good, in maybe allowing it to die more peacefully, but I don’t think a long drawn out death is necessarily good…but this is just my opinion.
In your example, harlequin fetus, I have a thought. I do understand where you are coming from with them dying in pain and agony. However I think the feeling of Love would be a good thing for any baby to experience; even if for a short while. With technology, we can ease the pain and agony. This way the baby gets to be held by his/her mother which is the only person the baby really knows and will be comforted in her arms. He/she will feel the joy of love before death. I can’t think of anything better than that.
I agree with this, Valerie, it’s exactly how I feel. Instead of having the baby suctioned out and taken away from his parents, his or her last moments can be eased (isnt there medication that can ease their suffering?) and the baby can rest in the arms of his mother or father until death happens. This is the way it should be.
Rae, if the baby is already dead in utero, then taking the baby out would not be what I consider to be an abortion. But I would hope that the family would be able to hold the baby afterwards so that they could have closure.
Rae, I’m glad you don’t like the thought of abortions that happen with babies with Spina Bifida or Down’s syndrome, or other such diseases, but the thing about it that bothers me is…you actually support this by not opposing it.
If we don’t stand up united and make a stand about stuff like this, how will people ever stop thinking that abortion is the way out of being inconvenienced by a child who is less intelligent or less physically able than they are?
I don’t think killing is ever the answer to these things. And i totally disagree with your statement that sometimes it’s merciful to euthanize (kill) a child to ease their suffering. I’m sorry, we’re not animals. If you were talking about a animal, I’d say, go ahead, if it’s hurting, put it out of it’s misery. But not an innocent human being. I understand your worry for their suffering, but just because you might not want to live like that does not mean that other people want to die just because they are suffering.
By the way…I realize this is not the most recent study, but if late term abortions were happening back in 1987 for these reasons (below), is it illogical to assume they are happening for the same reasons today? I’ll try to find a more recent study, but here is one from the Guttmacher institute:
In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), collected questionnaires from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, “420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.” These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. Only two percent (2%) said “a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy,” compared to 71% who responded “did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation,” 48% who said “found it hard to make arrangements,” and 33% who said “was afraid to tell her partner or parents.” The report did not indicate that any of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems.
Hi Bethany,
I’m really caught here with locked-in technology. A few years back, a Chicago-hospital researcher knowing that his young patient would likely die within 1 month of being born (world record being 2 years) did an experiment. He implanted mature human bone marrow into the developing child. After 5 years and the child thriving, he thought this treatment a success! [He thought the ‘adult’ cells acted as templates for all cells formed … in a sense, teaching what they should look like.]
He thought this treatment could be used for a wide spectrum of genetic disorders. Never have heard a peep from anyone since!
How come even pro-lifers treat genetic disorders as the kiss-of-death? Have we fallen for the Jerry’s-Kids syndrome and pay because $$$ cure?
Hi Bethany,
I’m really caught here with locked-in technology. A few years back, a Chicago-hospital researcher knowing that his young patient would likely die within 1 month of being born (world record being 2 years) did an experiment. He implanted mature human bone marrow into the developing child. After 5 years and the child thriving, he thought this treatment a success! [He thought the ‘adult’ cells acted as templates for all cells formed … in a sense, teaching what they should look like.]
He thought this treatment could be used for a wide spectrum of genetic disorders. Never have heard a peep from anyone since!
How come even pro-lifers treat genetic disorders as the kiss-of-death? Have we fallen for the Jerry’s-Kids syndrome and pay because $$$ cure?
I’m not really quite sure what you mean, John. I don’t know if the post you wrote is way over my head or if I’ve just misunderstanding.
I don’t believe that genetic disorders are a kiss of death at all. Are you referring to me, or just directing the post to me, and talking about someone else?
I certainly think that all children, unborn, born, with genetic defect or not, should be given the chance to live, the chance to prove the world wrong.
I’m not sure if maybe I said something that sounded like I was implying that I think that genetic disease is a kiss of death? Please let me know if I did and I’ll amend it.
Or maybe you were agreeing with me. I’m sorry if I am totally missing the point of your post!
“Rae, I’m glad you don’t like the thought of abortions that happen with babies with Spina Bifida or Down’s syndrome, or other such diseases, but the thing about it that bothers me is…you actually support this by not opposing it.”
I do oppose abortions for those reasons. I think it’s wrong to abort a fetus with spinal bifida (as that can be repaired in utero in some cases) and Down’s Syndrome. I don’t support it…at all.
“I don’t think killing is ever the answer to these things. And i totally disagree with your statement that sometimes it’s merciful to euthanize (kill) a child to ease their suffering. I’m sorry, we’re not animals. If you were talking about a animal, I’d say, go ahead, if it’s hurting, put it out of it’s misery. But not an innocent human being. I understand your worry for their suffering, but just because you might not want to live like that does not mean that other people want to die just because they are suffering.”
Bethany, we are animals, all humans are animals, just because we are capable of higher thought processes does not make us “special”. It’s terribly species-centric to think so. Why do you feel it’s not a problem to euthanize an animal, but not an “innocent human being”? Animals are innocent as well. I still disagree with you, that I feel in some cases, euthanasia would be preferable to being in constant, agonizing pain. It’s a quality of life issue and I feel it’s wrong to extend a person’s suffering just because “living is better than death”…which I feel is not always the case.
Hi Bethany,
this problem is not quite as overt as the pro-aborts denying life to handicapped children. From my studies over the years, genetic diseases are considered a rarity … in medical texts. Yet, I have personally met (and some I’ve hugged) thousands who have their lives transformed by these ailments.
I know of techniques that could easily reduce this number by 95%, but I do not see it happening. The sole techniques now employed are: 1) abortion as a preventative measure or 2) the post-birth one is a very expensive/intensive partial-cure. These are the options presented by medical ‘orthodoxy’.
Why do we always seek the approval of medicine? Right-now there are preventative techniques to cure that 95%. None of these are used. Perhaps because we get an emotional charge from seeing a severely disabled child. Are maternal instincts working overdrive?
If ‘orthodoxy’ doesn’t provide us with answers … I do not hear people demanding that ‘orthodox’ medicine take a back seat. Why?
Just wondering … don’t know! http://www.notdeadyet.org
Pro-aborts deny life …. don’t we all?
John I would be interested in information on the techniques you describe. I was under the impression that abortion or treatment for the symptoms were the only options available for genetic disorders. I will certainly advocate unorthodox means of gaining more efficient methods to improve the quality of life for these people (unorthodox within reason–certainly not techniques such as those used by the Nazis).
Bethany, we are animals, all humans are animals, just because we are capable of higher thought processes does not make us “special”. It’s terribly species-centric to think so. Why do you feel it’s not a problem to euthanize an animal, but not an “innocent human being”?
Well, hush my mouth and call me speechless….I guess I am species-centric! I DO believe humans are much higher and more important than animals…as a matter of fact, I believe we can own animals as pets, or kill them and eat them!
I just wasn’t aware that this was the equivilant to racism.
Aww I guess I’ll have to become a vegan…or ooooh no, this is better, a
pro-abortion vegan…nothing contradictory about that!
I know that was just a tad sarcastic, but I mean, come on…..Species-Centric???
I didn’t say that it was an equivalent to racism, I’m just pointing out that your way of thinking about humans being “special” is a species-centric way of thinking.
Why do you think we are more important than animals? Can you give me a non-biblical reason as to why this is?
And I’m not joking about that term…anthropomorphism is another way of describing it.
#1 – sufficient folic acid during pregnancy eliminates almost all spinal bifida – – law signed by Bill Clinton
#2 – sufficient zinc + B6 during pregnancy eliminates 90% of genetic birth defects – ‘Zinc and Copper in Medicine’ eds Sarper & Karçioglu
#3 – the technique used by the Chicago researcher to transplant healthy adult bone-marrow cells into a fetus … learned about him while listening to a science radio program @1995
Why do you think we are more important than animals? Can you give me a non-biblical reason as to why this is?
Does the fact that if you asked this question of a porpoise he couldn’t answer because he doesn’t own a computer, work?
Or how about those race-car driving penguins and the cancer curing goldfish…
Now Bethany,
You’re just being silly. Didn’t you read the posts yesterday? The Chinese pro-aborts are now eating babies which I think would blow the whole vegan thing…
an
Hmmmm…I guess I misused anthropomorphism. My bad.
And no, I’m not giving animals human characteristics…I’m trying to point out that humans are animals and have animal characteristics.
Psssshhh…I have seen a tap-dancing penguin and my dog is very good at playing football. :-p
Yes, I do realize that humans are capable of doing things animals aren’t, but does this make us better than animals?
Well,
Yes.
I eat cows.
I’m not Chinese, so I don’t eat babies.
I am capable of love.
Animals aren’t.
I am capable of self awareness.
Animals aren’t.
I have no problem killing a cockroach.
I have a problem killing a human being, no matter how much he resembles a cockroach.
Shall I go on?
Do you really think that humans and animals are equal?
Seriously?
Wow.
Fascinating.
Does your dog clean houses?
mk
Actually, my dog does clean up his toys when he’s done. It’s quite funny.
Animals are perfectly capable of self-awareness. Where do you get that they aren’t?
I also think animals are capable of love. Once again, what makes you think they aren’t?
“I’m not Chinese, so I don’t eat babies.”
Could you be anymore xenophobic? Do you honestly think Chinese people eat babies? Good lord.
As for animals and humans being equal, I see that we have strengths and weaknesses in different areas. For example, cheetahs are better at running and hunting than humans; dolphins and whales are better suited for swimming; humans are good at making stupid television shows…etc.
I do think that we should treat animals with respect, as we ourselves our animals. I don’t have qualms with eating animals however, as it’s the whole food-chain thing (animals do eat other animals, it’s natural)…as long as they are cared for in a humane manner before they are butchered for food.
oh my – I leave for a little bit and look what happens? ;-)
Rae – When I was in the newborn ICU with my son there were families there who had given birth to babies that only had a couple hours to a couple days to live. The benefit of the family to see and hold the baby is unbelievable.
Also, for the pain of the baby. Danny was hooked up to tubes. He had a tube going down his nose. He had this boxy type thing on his nose that was passing air to him. He had clamps, tape, and other monitoring devices on him. When I would see him as I was walking towards his bed I could tell he was in pain and uncomfortable. There were many times at the beginning when I couldn’t even touch him because all the stimulus was too much for him. All I would have to do is say his name and talk to him and he would turn his head and stop fussing. Just my voice relieved his pain. When I was allowed to touch him and hold him, he would get active and try to touch me. When a baby is being talked to/held by their mother there is no pain. There is only joy and happiness. I saw it with my son, and I saw it with many other babies. It was the most beautiful experience of my life. Yes, there was death, but it was still beautiful.
Also, the animal thing. I have been working with animals (dogs, cats, and occasionally horses and llama’s) since 1995. I believe they can love. I believe they can feel many basic emotions. They are extremely important in my life. I love all animals. However, animals cannot feel guilt longer that 10 minutes. They do not lie. They do not understand emotional pain. oh, they know lonliness, but not true emotional pain. Sometimes they do develop behavioral issues because of trauma and/or abuse but that is more instincual and patterned.
What I’m trying to say is that we are more advanced emotionally and have a better understanding of conscience than they do. We eat when we are not hungry, animals rarely do that. (obese animals are obese because of the protein/fat levels in the food not because of overeating. I can get into that in detail if you want me to.)We have sex because it is intimate and fun. Animals have sex because they are in heat or because the seasons tell them to. Animals have instincts. We have a higher understanding of ourselves and go beyond instinct.
Did that help answer why I think we can euthenize an animal but not a human?
Also, I do want to put my two cents in. I do not believe in euthenasia for people. Not even criminals. But I do not agree with artifical life support. And I mean TRUE life support. A feeding tube is not life support, it is life sustaining and it is a big difference. If someone cannot breath on their own, if their heart will not beat without the aid of a machine. Then I have no problems removing the devices that are interfering in nature. Unless it is because they are awaiting a transplant…etc. Then, of course, I believe in allowing science to assist if that is what they want.
John –
I totally agree with you on the nutrition thing. I got all ‘natural’ and stuff after my third miscarriage. I fully believe that changing my diet with the help of a naturopath helped me to have my daughter. The doctors did not think I would be able to stay pregnant and carry a baby to full term. Catherine was born at 39 weeks gestation. The doctors were is shock. The only change in me from the miscarriages to her birth was my diet and additional progesterone to help keep her attached to my uterus. That’s it. No other meds. Just diet.
Thanks for the reply Valerie, I do enjoy reading what you have to say. ^_^
I don’t think this was mentioned in this thread, but I want to know your opinon on the use of synthetic hormones (similar to those used in BC pills).
In order to sustain her pregnancy with me, my mom had to have synthetic progesterone injected rectally every day for 3 and a half months. Do you think she was right to use synthetic hormones?
“I’m not Chinese, so I don’t eat babies.”
That is a racist statement. I’m surprised you wrote that, MK. Sad.
Rae –
Do they still do that? I had to give myself progesterone shots through the 2 trimester and 1/2 of the third. I don’t know if it was synthetic or not.
I really don’t have much knowledge on it though. Do you think it hurt her or you in some way? I do know that the hormone replacement therapy they give to women going through menopause has caused alot of problems, and I think they are synthetic. There is a huge campain to start using more natural hormones because of this. I think the natural ones come from pigs, which is one of the animals used to get insulin.
I don’t know how old you are, did she have a choice between synthetic and natural? I did the projesterone because of lack of blood flow in my uterus may have caused problems with keeping the baby attached. If she did the projesterone for the same reason, then I don’t think she had a choice.
But again, I don’t have much knowledge on this other than personal experience.
I don’t know if this helped or not.
“I’m not Chinese, so I don’t eat babies.”
That is a racist statement. I’m surprised you wrote that, MK. Sad.
PIP,
Obviously I was referring to the post on Chinese cannibalism.
I don’t really think that all Chinese people eat babies…
.The Next Magazine, a weekly publication from Hong Kong, reported that infant corpses and fetuses have become the newest supplements for health and beauty in China. Not only is the placenta considered a beauty remedy, but also aborted fetuses are much sought after delicacies. In Guangdong, gourmet body parts are in high demand and can even be purchased through hospitals. The magazine’s investigations into this form of cannibalism took them to Liaoning province.
I can’t believe that you believe that I would believe that.
sad.
mk
I’m a speciesist!
(by the way,MK, that’s an actual word! Can you believe it?)
“Speciesism involves assigning different values or rights to beings on the basis of their species membership. The term was coined by Richard D. Ryder in 1970 and is used to denote prejudice similar in kind to sexism and racism.
The concept of speciesism is used mostly by advocates of animal rights, who believe that it is irrational or morally wrong.”
“I don’t really think that all Chinese people eat babies…”
I realize what you were trying to say, but you said it completely wrong.
I was very surprised at that statement because it didn’t seem like you.
Rae, you said: “I also think animals are capable of love. Once again, what makes you think they aren’t?”
Which love are you talking about; fileo, eros, or agape?
Valerie:
I’m 19, I was born January of 1988 and I don’t know. All I know is that my parents tried having kids for 6 years (they went to various fertility doctors, endochrinologists etc) and were SOL for all that time until finally they just gave up and were starting to look into adopting and then *poof* insta-preggos. Two kids in two years. But for both pregnancies my mom had to use the hormones to keep them. I’m not sure of the exact details, as my mom doesn’t talk about this stuff much, so what I do know is from her notes in my baby book that she wrote down.
You know, I keep thinking about my post above about my son in the NICU when he was born. I have a picture of him when he is not being touched and a picture of me touching his forehead. You can tell the difference in him with the expression on his face. It is beautiful. So if anyone wants to see them, I can see if Jill will post them for me.
I want to see them, Valerie!
Rae –
Are you sure the medicine was given rectally? I totally forgot that at the beginning of my pregnancies after Dan was premature, that I did have vaginal suppositories that were progesterone.
It’s funny. It is right when you give up on having kids is when you get preggo. My hubby and I had decided to stop trying and viola! Catherine was born.
Valerie,I’d love to see them too!
Valerie: Yeah, stress definitely takes it’s toll when trying to get pregnant. It have always found it interesting how the people who don’t want to get pregnant get pregnant no-problemo where as those who do want to get pregnant don’t.
My parents always told me it was “because of the water in Prairie du Chien, WI”…in fact when my dad was getting transferred to a different 3M plant, at the going away party they gave my parents a jug of Prairie du Chien water that had a label that says, “DO NOT DRINK: CAUSES PREGNANCY”, or something on that order.
As I said before, I am not sure what my mom used, as I’ve never asked her (and she would never tell me…we aren’t very close and we don’t talk about this kind of stuff) but I am pretty sure it was rectal injections…unless my mom was mistaken and miswrote what it was, but that is what my baby-books say. *shrugs*
While the article exposes the awful realities of abortion to the bright light of public attention, the comments above speak even greater volumes about the vile and pernicious death culture… in their own words.
One day, we will all face His justice.
Hey Don,
where in Chicago?
mk
Rae –
Did you ever find out why she had difficulties getting pregnant? If not, you may want to try to find out in case it is something heriditary so if you ever want kids you may be able to prevent it.
I’m sorry you don’t get along with your parents. Has it always been that way or is it that your growing up and they still see you as a child? That is what caused problems with my Dad and one of my sisters. For some reason he didn’t want to “let her go”. Maybe it was because she was the oldest.
Valerie: I did try asking my dad once about why, but he didn’t know, and unfortunately my mom isn’t very knowledgible about medical information so I really doubt she has any idea. I have brought it up that I should probably get checked to see if I can have kids and my parents are always like, “Oh don’t worry, you might not have as many troubles as your mom etc.”
But miscarriages run on both sides of my family, for exmaple, my Catholic grandmother only had 6 kids and my dad’s mother only had 4 kids (my dad said she had several miscarriages). My maternal grandmother and my mom’s older sister have both had hysterectomies.
I do get along with my parents, it’s not like we fight all the time and what not. My mom and I just aren’t close as we used to fight so much but we get along now but you see the thing is that we are so different and my mom has apparently “never understood me” etc. However, I do get along quite well with my dad as we are a bit more alike.
I am the oldest and they are both having issues with me moving out this summer into my own apartment (they just about had kittens when I left for the dorm, apparently my mom cried the whole way home after dropping me off). They totally still see me as their “little girl” and they still feel that they need to control my life as much as they can. I’ve tried to point out that they are doing that and they are always like, “No we’re not, blah blah blah…”.
Meh, I do love my parents but I am adult now and they reeeeally don’t like that fact.