Abortion and the 3-legged stool
This week I am attending Americans United for Life’s Legal Institute in Chicago. Along the way I’ll be posting items of interest.
Yesterday, in her presentation, “Abortion, the ultimate abuser of women,” Dr. Donna Harrison, President-Elect of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists, made this point:
Since 1973, abortion proponents have argued its legitimacy on a three-legged stool:
1. That which is being aborted is a blob of tissue.
2. Abortions are good for women.
3. We don’t want those kinds of people (insert reason here: poor, uneducated, unmarried, etc.) to reproduce anyway.
Do you agree these are the foundational principles of abortion? Disagree? Are there others?
According to Dr. Harrison, two of the three legs have been all but knocked out. Which two do you think?
Update, 6-20-07: See page two for Dr. Harrison’s answers.
According to Dr. Harrison, Reasons #1 and #2 have all but been eradicated, and #3 is on its way. Her explanation:
Reason #1 has been dispelled in the second and third trimesters, thanks to 3d and 4D ultrasounds and because the abortion industry pushed the envelope via partial birth abortion, bringing notoriety.
The final frontier to eradicate reason #1 is humanizing first trimester preborns. Here, 3D and 4D ultrasounds are also making a difference. Interestingly, the embryo experimentation debate is also helping.
Abortion apologists have lately shied from this topic. The “blob of tissue” line has over time come to sound ridiculous. They now sometimes even admit they know preborn babies are human but mostly use word hieroglyphics to avoid mentioning the preborn at all, other than to call him or her a “pregnancy.”
Reason #2 is being dispelled by post-abortive women and organizations and by over 30 years of studies that prove conclusively abortion hurts women. Our work is to simply get the word out.
Reason #3 is a debate yet to be surmounted. Pregnancy care centers are filling the gap here, as are abstinence programs teaching self-respect and the consequences of illicit sex, as are minority pro-life spokespersons and organizations educating about abortion genocide. The pro-life community now has to raise the level of debate.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Does #2 mean the abortion itself is good for women or that the right to have abortions is good for women?
#1, we’re all blobs of tissue. some more developed than others, that’s all.
I don’t think I sign off on any of the three legs.
My view is that abortion is legal because a government ban on abortion would do more harm than good.
People who are pregnant and don’t want to be are going to find ways to become unpregnant. Safe and legal abortions seem like a good way to do that until medicine and technology improve enough so that abortion will be unnecessary.
Hal, in my view the right to abortion and abortion are the same. If one says, “The right to abortion is good for women,” one must also say, “Abortions are good for women.”
Legitimacy of abortion is based on self-determination.
Dr. Harrison is desiminating trite anti-choice notions to antichoiers (i.e. she’s telling you what you want to hear and confirming what you allready think so you’ll buy her books).
“…in my view the right to abortion and abortion are the same.”
Translation: I’m equivocating.
so hal, because we are all blobs of tissue, does that mean we can kill others because they are just blobs of tissue as well.
Hal, so you agree then that abortion is a “bad” thing that should be stopped if possible?
Cambo, no, the equivocator in this case would be the one who tries to say a constitutional right to abortion is right but participating in that constitutional right is wrong.
So your statement, “Legitimacy of abortion is based on self-determination,” would fall under Dr. Harrison’s point #2.
“Hal, so you agree then that abortion is a “bad” thing that should be stopped if possible?”
I believe it is better to avoid unwanted pregnancies than abort them. Does that make abortion “bad?” Not as bad as a government ban would be.
Not as bad a forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy against her will.
“so hal, because we are all blobs of tissue, does that mean we can kill others because they are just blobs of tissue as well.”
No, and that’s not why abortion should be legal either.
Jill,
buy a dictionary.
“So your statement, “Legitimacy of abortion is based on self-determination,” would fall under Dr. Harrison’s point #2.”
Using that logic, prolife then believes that it is in everyone’s best interest if we take organs from unwilling donors in order to save others.
Have you held a stolen kidney in your hands too Jill??
No, but I bet it was a heart Cam!! LOL
Hal,
It seems to me that your support for abortion rests on the concept of control. However, the falacy of this view is revealed by the impossibility to “force” gestation. Simply put, we do not have the sort of control over reproduction that abortion supposes.
Abortion must remain legal in order for us to pretend that we have control over our lives. The reality is that we are largely at the mercy of other people and our own biological mechinisms. This need for control is what I beleive ultimately underlies the abortion-rights movement.
It is ironic that in this time of ultimate choice, we have been transformed into a society more restrictive than before. There now exists the an obligation to abort. Because we believe we have the power of creation, we believe we have the power of restriction.
Well Lauren you’re correct, kind of. Technically we have the power to create, Not God (I’ve never heard of another immaculate conception except Mary).
So yes, with that logic we have the power to abort.
Hell, my mother still tells me “I Brought you into this world, and I can sure as can take you out of it.”
Dang it. She says: “I brought you into this world and I can sure as (insert vulgar word) take you out of it” My other one didnt work right, hmmmm
Haha Midnite, I think you might have been the victim of the auto-editer.
But we don’t have the ultimate power to create. Try as I might, there was no way I could make my body not miscarry. Likewise, I have very little power over becoming pregnant. I can *ahem* til the cows come home, but that doesn’t mean I’ll get pregnant.
However statements such as “force her to carry an unwanted pregnancy” seem to have forgotten this point. This betrays how legalized abortion has affected our mindset regarding reproduction.
Actually Lauren, you can make your body miscarry. Taking illegal drugs, drinking or throwing yourself down stairs can make a woman miscarry (and I should point out that I am not advertising or in any way advocating these things).
You are corect though. You could go at it like bunny rabbits and never concieve, the body is a strange thing when it comes to those matters.
The verdict is still out on the forcing an unwanted pregnancy on a mother for me. I understand that some women just dont want children for reasons (there are many). I dont know which would be worse, abortion, adoption or growing up *knowing* you were not wanted (experienced the latter a little bit in my life).
Make sense at all or am I just rambling?
Midnite I know I can make my body miscarry, my point is that I can’t NOT make it miscarry.
As for the “what is worse” scenerio, you make sense. I went through a bit of that myself. Before I was pregnant with my son, I didn’t want to EVER have children because I didn’t want to bring “more suffering into the world”.
What changed my mind was the notion that yes, there is suffering, but there is also beauty. To me even a momment of beauty made life “worth it”.
I know several people who were adopted, but don’t know one who wishes her birth mother had aborted. Some say they would have understood if she did, but are thankful that she did not.
The “unwanted” phenomenon is interesting because it seems to have been created by some PR machine. “Every child a wanted child…er except those who somehow slipped through and aren’t actually “wanted” but rather “tolerated” ”
Feeling “unwanted” must be terrible, but I do not think death is a justifiable alternative. Especially because there is most certainly someone who *does* want you and love you. If not on Earth, than in Heaven…though I’m willing to bet on Earth!
Dr. Harrison’s analogy of the three-legged foot stool is correct in one sense; The three resons she lists have been and are three of the main talking point of the pro-aborts. And, I agree we have made headway in the first two. the third leg? Sadly, I don’t know. But, I think there is another three-legged stool that the abortion industry stands firmer on. The hard cases; Rape, incest and health. In the beginning, pro aborts were smart. Evil? yes. Deceitful? Yes. But, smart. They built their foundation, brick by brick, based on the hard cses. Even the most ardent pro-lifer was/is sympathetic. Our hearts break, to this day, concerning rape, incest and health. But what pro aborts did, by playing on our emotions, they undermined the “personhood of the child”. How could we argue for one child, and not another, who’s father was a criminal (rapist)? Anyway, that’s what I think.
Hal –
“People who are pregnant and don’t want to be are going to find ways to become unpregnant. ”
This statment has always confused me. Why is it abortion has to be legal because women will do it anyway but nothing else can be done like that. People still use drugs, should we make it legal because they will do it anyway? They don’t want to be sober, they can’t stand the thought of it, so why should we force sobriety on them? People drink and drive all the time. They have to get from point A to point B like the rest of us, why should we force them not to drive? It shouldn’t be illegal anyway since people are going to find a way to do it anyway. Do I have to continue? That reason for abortion to stay legal is the stupidest one I have ever heard – no offense, you didnt’ come up with it, many use it.
Do you have any idea how many things are illegal but people find ways to do it anyway? You can die if you drink and drive, but people do it anyway. People die from over dose of druges, but people do it anyway. Should we have drug posts so people can go there and get their ‘fix’.
“Not as bad a forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy against her will.”
But we force people to do things against their will all the time. Look at all the new bans on smoking. People who smoke are forced not to smoke in public. People are sent to jail/rehab and forced to stay there. We force our kids to go to school when they don’t want to. I was forced to pay for credit card bills that my roommate used without my knowledge. Why is it pregnant women get this luxery but no one else does?
Because besides the still grey area of personhood, the next best argument for pro lifers is “she chose to have sex, she should deal with the consequences, she should have abstained if she didn’t want to get pregnant.” With rape it is not the woman’s choice to engage in a sexual act, she could have been a girl who had made a virginity pledge and was planning on waiting until marriage also. Thats why a lot of pro lifers concede to the rape/incest situation.
I think it would be safer if drugs were legal. People could buy them at their local pharmacy instead of in a dark alley in a shady part of town. The FDA could put regulations to reduce the number of bad trips.
“Do you have any idea how many things are illegal but people find ways to do it anyway?”
Sure I do, but somethings become worse *because* they are illegal. Like unsafe abortions. Like illegal drugs. Like alcohol. The “solution” makes the problem worse. Those solutions are therefore not helpful. The laws against murder don’t make murder worse, same from DUI.
The point I was trying to make is that making abortion illegal won’t reduce the number of abortions, only make them more dangerous. So, what have you accomplished?
[I will grant you it might reduce somewhat the number, but I would guess not significantly.]
The debate really centers on the “personhood” of the fetus, as mentioned above by Mark B. If the fetus isn’t a person, why not allow a woman to abort?
Hal,
You are still living like it’s 1972. The founders of the abortion industry have fully admitted they made up the statistics on how many women actually died from illegal abortions. It was a total play on emotions.
Please read the following study. Before you go crazy that I pulled it from the site I did, please note the study was actually done by the United Nations.
http://www.physiciansforlife.org
One of the main arguments of abortion industry, and that of the United Nations, has been that if abortion is illegal, more women will die from illegal, back-alley abortions. Further, women
Valerie,
Seriously, not being a smart a$s, but why did you pay a CC charge that your roommate charge with out your permission? I would have filed fraudulent charges and said “kiss my arse, I didn’t buy that so I am not paying for it”.
Hal, I know we disagree on the issue of abortion, but let me ask you this…Do you think pro-life laws, such as “parental notification”, “twenty four hour waiting periods”, “pain medication for the feus”, etc. undermine the personhood of the child? I do. And for that reason, I find myself at odds with many in the pro-life movement.
JK –
“The FDA could put regulations to reduce the number of bad trips. ”
So should the CDC put regulations to reduce the number of abortions?
Yes, I’m being a smart bleep, but that analogy can work with anything.
As for personhood. If no one can tell me when a person develops personhood rights then that argument is obsolete. Does that mean that if a viable baby dies after birth than it didn’t have personhood rights because s/he was a preemie? Or is it birth that creates personhood rights and not the age of the fetus? And what is it about the birth that all of a sudden forms personhood rights? Breathing? Well, what about the kids that aren’t breathing when born and have to have a machine breath for them for the first couple days/weeks. Does that mean that they do not have the same rights as the baby who was born kicking and screaming?
I can go around and around on this with absolutly no answer. And yes, pro-lifers and some religions also have a different opinions than the idea that personhood begins at conception, but at least they can all give an answer to the question instead of shrugging and saying “I don’t know, its a grey area.” If medicine cannot answer the question of when personhood begins, then shouldn’t we err on the side of caution?
Midnite –
“Seriously, not being a smart a$s, but why did you pay a CC charge that your roommate charge with out your permission? I would have filed fraudulent charges and said “kiss my arse, I didn’t buy that so I am not paying for it”.”
I can answer this, really I can. It is crazy. Since the person who used my credit card was someone that I knew, then legally it isn’t fraud it is theft. Therefore I had to go through the courts to get her to pay me the money just as I would have if she took cash. If i didn’t pay it and said kiss my arse as I really really really wanted to, it would have ruined my very limited credit and I was wanting to buy a car in the next year. So….I had no choice or I would have had to take the bus to and from work. I worked the vampire shift. Ever take one of the few buses that are actually driving at 2AM? It’s not pretty, especially where I lived. I also needed to have good credit so I could move out of that place once I could afford to.
So, the lesson I have taught everyone. If you know someone used your credit without your knowledge, file a police report without saying you know who did it, and then you can file fraud.
(I’m not sure if it is that way anymore. This happened over 10 years ago and some things have changed)
Wow Valerie, that sucks! If my roommate did that, I think I might have severely hurt her or beaten the money out her. It’s not very nice or respectful to mess with some one’s credit…
oh – I forgot. Nope, never got the money out of her. She left town with her boyfriend and I have no idea what ever happened to her. She was a really nice person until the boyfriend introduced her to drugs. Maybe that is one of the reasons why I hate drugs so much. I saw how they can change people.
Sandy, Some cultures where abortion is illegal don’t have the expectation that they can get an abortion or the perceived problems with unwanted pregnancies that some women here have. Don’t you believe that in this country, after 30 years of legal abortion, a woman who wants one, who desperately wants to be unpregnant, wouldn’t find an illegal way to abort? And don’t you believe that illegal abortion would be less safe then she could get at Planned Parenthood today?
It’s just not going to happen. There are so many doctors committed to the “right” to abortion, it’s not going to stop. Only reducing unwanted pregnancies (and improving support for women who decide to give babies up for adoption) will reduce the number of abortions. Unless you change the hearts and minds of women with unwanted pregnancies. Any 8th grader in the country can get marijuana today if they want to. If abortion is illegal, it will be available to any woman who wants one any day of the week. You’ll make it more shameful, more dangerous, more expensive, but you won’t stop it.
Mark B.: I don’t know of those proposals undermine the personhood of the child (fetus). I can see your point. Your point, if I underrstand it, is how can you say abortion is wrong, but okay for a minor to have one with parental permission? Since I don’t believe abortion is wrong, I’m not faced with that quandary.
I am under the belief that your life begins when you are born, thats when you become a person. Thats why people celebrate their birthday and not their conception day. And quite frankly, thinking about the day you were conceived could be a little uncomfortable for you.
hehe I celebrate my conception day ever year: NEW YEAR’S EVE
me too Midnight. New Years Eve. And I would have prefered not to know. ;)
When’s you’re birthday Hal? Mines the 25th of Spetember :-)
I always knew I was a drunken New Year’s Oopsie, and it really doesnt bother me that much.
I guess mine would have been sometime in September or maybe August
9/15. It doesn’t bother me “that much” either.
Ten days apart, and not sure how many years… You’re still a virgo though arnt you Hal??
“1. That which is being aborted is a blob of tissue.
2. Abortions are good for women.
3. We don’t want those kinds of people (insert reason here: poor, uneducated, unmarried, etc.) to reproduce anyway.”
1. We’re all techinically a blob of tissue. Every living creature is a blob of tissue. Who gives a rip? They kill sharks because sharks are supposedly the world’s most notorious man-eater. They kill dogs and cats and other abandoned animals because they don’t think there is anyone in the world left to love them. Why should an embryo that is wreaking havoc on a woman’s life be any different?
2. That’s all circumstancial. If the woman gets an abortion because she isn’t able to support a child or isn’t financially/emotionally able to carry it to term, then the abortion can be good. Some women come out of abortion feeling intensely relieved because they can finally have their lives back. Others come out filled with regret, and some just go back to sleeping with everything that has a penis. Like I said, it’s all circumstancial.
3. That’s rediculous. That’s just like saying that black people shouldn’t be allowed to live because they’re black. I honestly can’t agree with that. Help the poor, educated the uneducated, and let natural selection weed out the weaker members of the herd of humanity.
Hal,
You say making abortion illegal will make it more dangerous. You and I went over this on another thread!! I told you that the death rate from illegal abortion had been steadily declining up until 1972, when the death rate was 36. The founders of NARAL, then called the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, falsified numbers since 36 wasn’t going to generate much sympathy or support. Abortion was still illegal for most of the country and the death rate was continuing to decline. How can that be?
Sandy
Your 3:11 PM post. Excellent and very informative.
In order to better understand the need for abortion and to reduce the need, as well as show care for women and their health, it’s more than just the baby’s right to be born or abortion rights. You’ve got to look deeper beyond “the right to privacy”, “it’s an unwanted pregnancy”, and “what about the unborn baby!?” to the reasons behind the need for abortion. The decision to have an abortion is not made in a void.
Women are having abortions because they are fearful of loosing their partner or domestic violence, not having food to put on the table, loosing their home or are homeless, fearful they won’t be able to continue school or their career, fearful they won’t be able to support their existing family, concerned about existing health conditions.
When her situation or health leaves her feeling she can’t raise the child and has no other choice than to end the pregnancy, this is usually indicator of a great issue or need. No thought is given as to how these woman will live after their abortion. No thought to the fact some woman will go back home to same difficult situation (maybe an abusive partner/minor’s guardian, absent partner/guardian and lack of emotional support, lack of financial resources or education and in poverty), lack of adequit daycare, a job which barely pays enough and discriminates against pregnant women and mothers, lack of living accomidations or supportive measures for pregnant or parenting students at colleges. Nevermind those huge financial, educational, emotional, and relational hurdles?
It seems that largely in the pro-choice movement it’s all about appearing to be acting on behalf of those women while in truth, they are trying to ensure the right to unrestricted abortion access for the wealthy, the childfree, and the corporate executives who can’t be inconvienced with childrearing. While there are some who ginuinely believe, although misguided, that they are helping impoverished women by supporting abortion rights and/or providing abortions, few are actually providing the tools necessary for “pulling oneself up,” as it were — affordable health care, realistic maternity and paternity leave, breastfeeding breaks on the job and few are in favor of devoting/investing in physical and emotional time of guiding, mentoring, directing, or assisting these women to better their lives.
Midnite,
My birthday is September 20. A Virgo. You’d be a Libra right? I think that starts Sept 23. I’ve read that you and I might be in the borderline area between the two I think it was called the “cusp”. It said that in this area, you have the best of both, or a combination of both signs. The article said that “cusps” are supposed to be especially capable of attracting members the opposite sex. From your picture I’m sure you that would be very true for you. I’m too damned old. Sophia Loren is a “cusp”, and she’s still going strong, so Midnite, there’s hope for both of us even as the years advance! Well, you maybe.
JK –
“Thats why people celebrate their birthday and not their conception day. And quite frankly, thinking about the day you were conceived could be a little uncomfortable for you.”
huh? yes, we celebrate our birthday. However, In your scenerio we should call it our “personhood day” instead? Everyone knows what a birthday is and it has nothing to do with the rights of the child. So according to you our birthday means the day we acheived human rights? That is rediculous. Our birthday is the day we were born, not the day we became alive, not the day we started living, not the day we first moved, not the day we first opened our eyes, not the day we first sucked our thumbs, not the day we first yawned… get it? We celebrate our birthday because it is the day our mothers got to see us for the first time, got to hold us in her arms, got to wrap us in a blanket. It doesn’t mean the first day we live. Science has proof we are living long before that.
So why celebrate our birthdays at all then if it means absolutely nothing? And why can’t we drink legally 9 months before our 21st birthday if we are technically 21 at the time?
@JK: I advocate for celebrating conception days…that way I have less than a year till I’m “21”!
“You say making abortion illegal will make it more dangerous.”
Ok, maybe it won’t. I imagine it would be more expensive.
Maybe the death rate was going down because the illegal abortions were getting safer. The people offering them better trained. I really don’t know.
I don’t think abortion will ever be illegal in the US. I would hate to think of our mothers, sisters, and daughters being treated like criminals for terminating a pregnancy.
I already turned 21 so its all good for me :-)
Maybe the death rate was going down because the illegal abortions were getting safer. The people offering them better trained. I really don’t know.
Well, it wasn’t lawmakers signing legislation. The change itself was made in advances in emergency medicine and the founding of antibiotics such as pencillan. The fact remains that the majority of the illegal abortions which were preformed by reputable doctors in their offices after hours, the same doctors which opened clinics and became the abortion doctors of today. Ironically, some of them didn’t start harming and maiming women with their abortions until after legalization:
Anniversary: Woman dies after abortion by hero doc
http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2007/06/anniversary-woman-dies-after-abortion.html
Anniversary: Homeless woman found dead in car
http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2007/05/anniversary-homeless-woman-found-dead.html
Yes Mary, I am a Libra with some Virgo Tendencies. And thanks for the compliment, you are a sweet heart :-) !!
Anti-abortion is based on….
#1 women can only have sex to make babies. (ie sex = tacit consent and/or pregnancy = punishment)
#2 women > human (no human outside the womb has any right to an unvolunteered body or parts of it no matter if they
As per the horoscope discussion, I’m a Capricorn and my moon was in Cancer and my rising sign was Taurus…not sure what it means, but if anybody is good with astrology I’m sure they’d know. :)
What is up with the after posting editing???
#1 women can only have sex to make babies.
(ie sex equals tacit consent and or pregnancy equals punishment)
#2 women less than human, and or fetus is great than human
(no human outside the womb has any right to an unvolunteered body or parts of it no matter if they
Rae-
Not sure what my moon was under of if I had “stars” or what not. I should look into that though. I find horoscopes fascinating!
@Midnite: I used to be really into astrology when I was in 7th grade-8th grade. I’d obsessively read books about it and go on various websites and a long time ago I once tried to map out my birth chart…needless to say I realized after awhile that it was more or less “crap”, but it is terribly entertaining to see how “accurate” they can be. :)
The principle is this: Women own their bodies and are entitled to say who gets to live inside them, and for how long.
Wrong SoMG:
God owns a woman’s body.
And I own my house and am entitled to say who does what inside of them. Like the couple in
Wisconsin who locked their daughter up in cage for a month because she wasn’t obeying them.
“God owns a woman’s body.”
I missed that certificate of ownership thing it the bible… is this something christians have to do… sign over ownership of their bodies to the magic man in the sky?
Does it have to be notarized?
Now Cameron,
Call me names or whatever because I said what I said to SoMG.
My belief system is based on what the Bible teaches. With regards to ownership, we are simply stewards of God’s gifts, one of which is our bodies. A person cannot own themselves since they were nothing to begin with. The owner is the Creator. Since the Creator owns us we are subject to His rule. If we choose to disobey those rules we sin or miss the mark.
Now, having said that are you going to diss me because I try to explain what the Bible teaches? I know you think it is stupid, however, I live by it, I would die by it.
Are you going to use profanity, name calling, verbal abuse, verbal intimidation and utter arrogance as if you know more than God Himself now?
If you continue in this mode there is simply no reason to respond futher to any of your childish rants any more.
Fortunately, most people don’t believe in that god.
SoMG
Where did you learn that principle in a Wigged Out Hippie Women’s Studies 101 course??? What a bunch of Bull &^$%@$.
Women have not done a very good job taking ownership of their bodies when they allow themselves to wind up with an unintended pregnancy.
You can’t tell me women who go to school and/or have a degree and/or work in a profession aren’t smart enough to avoid an unintended pregnancy.
Again, it is very simple to avoid.
Abortion rights have only given the greenlight for women to be careless, irresponsible and lazy when it comes to birth control.
I am so tired of the same rhetoric used to talk about the loss of reproductive rights. First of all using the term abortion is an oxymoron when you say it is a reproductive right. (It’s not really very reproductive)
In the United States women don’t:
Get stoned to death for adultry.
Get disowned for being raped.
Suffer forced abortion for population control.
Suffer forced abortion for conceiving the wrong gender.
Experience high childbirth mortality rates.
Sufer high infant mortality rates.
Suffer genital mutilation.
Get bought ang sold for use as sex slaves.
I am sure I have missed a few others so if anyone has more to add please do.
Last I checked, the only time a human being is “owned” is when they are either a slave or in the military (as they become government property, I heard this in high school from a teacher, I could be wrong).
I don’t see God anywhere in that.
Cameron,
I thought you were intelligent.
However, it turns out you are very predictable.
Jude 1:3-15
” 3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home
*sigh*
Honestly, and I don’t mean to be rude, but what good does it do to throw out a bunch of bible quotes at a person who doesn’t even believe that the bible is accurate or has any more meaning than any other piece of writing?
Rae:
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere’s God in that!!!
1 Corinthians 6:18-20
“18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”
So I am pretty much a slave to God?
So all this stuff about “free will” is not true after all?
*shrugs*
Doesn’t matter though, I don’t believe there is a God, but of course, what I believe in or don’t believe in doesn’t necessarily make it true.
Eh.
You were trying to make a funny weren’t you? The “Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere’s” part reminds me of the intro to “The Price is Right”… mon dieu! HisMan thou art have a sense of humor?
Johnny Carson.
Sorry to date myself.
@HisMan: Ah that’s right. It was “heeeeeeeeeeere’s Johnny!” Sorry, I got my television hosts mixed up. :)
*smacks head*
That’s right, it was “Bob Barker come on down!”
That’s ok, I’m actually a big Johnny Carson fan myself, even though I was too young to watch him when he was on the air. We have a bunch of his shows on DVD that my dad will play every once and awhile.
He was far more classy and far more entertaining to watch than Jay Leno or David Letterman could ever hope to be.
Rae:
HisMan, slave of God, battler of Cameron – blasphemer without restraint.
We are slaves of God by a free will choice.
And I can’t think of a better Master. I mean, He died for me.
HisMan:
You don’t belong in the USA. You should live in Iran, or Saudi Arabia, where God owns everyone.
In the USA, people own their bodies. Get used to it.
Jill has asked me not to use the a** word. OK, I just use, a** when apprpriate for the moment, OK Jill? Here goes…
You know, the other day, Cameron said his Dad’s name was Jack.
So that makes Cameron, Jack’s A**. He should be proud.
SoMG:
Sorry SoMG, God doesn’t recognize political boundaries since He, um, owns the Universe.
That doesn’t really make sense though, slavery is involuntary servitude, where as God gives us the choice to follow him or not, which implies voluntary servitude rather than slavery.
*shrugs*
But eh, it’s your choice. :)
Just a question…if God owns the universe, does that mean he owns Satan as well? If so, why doesn’t he do something about Satan?
somg, i never saw your answer to me owning my house and what goes on inside it. You know, why can’t I hurt my children inside my home, i mean that’s what abortion is, hurting a child in a womens body. Is my body different than my home, i own my body, i own my home.
oh yeah, if my mailman comes to the door and I open it and he steps in does that mean I can hurt him also, he is in my house, i didn’t invite him in, i just opened the door.
i suppose i could even hire someone to come into my home and hurt my family, they are in my home!
If someone is living in your house rent free, eating all your food and mooching off you left and right, its your right as a homeowner to kick them to the curb. I suppose you could kill them luvmy5kids, if you really feel strongly about it, since you seem to have really thought this out, but know that you’ll probably go to jail for it.
HisMan, I think you’re the biggest hypocrite I’ve ever known; accusing me of calling you names when I asked about you bible, and then calling me a @ss.
BTW… I’m still waiting for that part in the bible about ownership.
It’s becoming increasingly apparent though that you don’t really know or understand your own bible though.
Viel spass,
Cameron
HisMan,
Your 7:30 post. Tacky. If this isn’t beneath you HisMan, it should be.
and why is it that i would go to jail for it? Isn’t it the same as abortion rights. It’s a new thing, homeowners rights. I’m pretty sure i would be slapped with neglect if i wanted to kick my kids to the curb. and you thing that I “have really thought this out”? I just came up with this stupid senario because it goes right along with somg’s stupid senario
“The principle is this: Women own their bodies and are entitled to say who gets to live inside them, and for how long”
What that a woman owns her own body? How is that a stupid scenario?
Your the one with the stupid scenarios. You are obsessed with killing. You come up with stupid questions like “If you can buy a lottery ticket, why can’t I murder my children?” Who thinks like this? If you want to murder your children, you should have aborted them when you had the chance.
“The principle is this: Women own their bodies and are entitled to say who gets to live inside them, and for how long”
this is the stupid senario, not just that women own their bodies. the only people obsessed with killing are those that abort or those that think abortion should be kept legal! Give me a break! If a woman can kill a baby because it is in her body that she owns and that is O.K. than why isn’t it right to kill a baby in your home because I own my home?
Because, hello-IT IS NOT THE SAME THING
*headdesk*
I really have to start collecting and cataloguing all the anti-choice analogies.
Not to mention their use of analogy to disprove analogy, or finding fault with analogy because it
“If you can buy a lottery ticket, why can’t I murder my children?”
you have this in quotes, did I say this? I guess i must have been asleep while typing because i never said this or anything like it!
What, luv, you’re allowed to use ridiculous hypotheticals, but I’m not allowed to mock your ridiculous hypotheticals?
A home is not your person or your organs.
If you insist that woman is comparable to an inanimate object, then we should also consider the fetus as such:
Should you be banned from moving your own furniture around in your own house, or moving stuff in or out??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU3m4N9iOQI
sorry cam i don’t waste my time with you. I learned that VERY quickly on this site!
nice youtube jk, it sounds like abortion. are you saying your pro-life? all of the sudden you don’t want children hurt?!
“sorry cam i don’t waste my time with you. I learned that VERY quickly on this site!”
Translation: I can’t compete with your superior intelect.
BTW… you just “wasted” time with me.
I’m actually worried about your 5 children, luv, since you seem so intent on murdering them to prove why you think abortion is wrong.
oh please jk like you would really worry about kids! I guess i hadn’t seen you stoop to camerons level until now. Guess I will quit wasting my time with you as well. Say what you want about it. IF I wanted to murder children, I would have had a n abortion, I CHOSE to have each one of my children and I take VERY good care of them. Here let me stoop to your level for a moment. Your stupid.
You don’t know me at all. I do worry about kids, especially kids with ignoarant parents.
And you could have come up with a less sophmoric and more creative insult to “stoop to my level” with. Also, you could have phrased it more grammatically correct. Its “you’re stupid” not “your stupid”
As you don’t know me. As you probably don’t know these parents you speak of that are so ignorant. So at what age do you decide to worry about kids. Obviously not early enough, I think you would then be considered pro-life.
Wow! Good work to misspell, it’s “ignorant” Also you could have spelled it correctly.
I thought you were going to ignore me. That lasted about 5 minutes. It was a typo if you must know, its not like I used a word with a different meaning altogether.
There you go, all spell checked and everything.
For over thirty years, however, abortion advocates have sought to bestow upon choice a nobility all its own, a nobility it has no claim to. They refuse to be called “pro-abortion”, but they gladly accept the label “pro-choice” (despite the fact that there are countless other issues for which they are decidedly not pro-choice). The fact is, laws against rape, murder, assault, theft, speeding, drunk-driving and even smoking are all “anti-choice”. They take away legal protection from one particular choice in order to protect a more foundational freedom. All such laws are “legislating morality”. That’s the only way society can survive. Personal choices that infringe on the life or livelihood of another human being must be legislated against. Therefore, anyone who defends legal abortion by simply arguing that people must be free to make their own choices is either ignorant or dishonest.
Isn’t that the point of free will? I thought free will was God-given and thus non revokable.
Label me ignorant then.
(And look, luv, I spelled it right!)
Per Cameron:
“Should you be banned from moving your own furniture around in your own house, or moving stuff in or out??”
It wouldn’t be as simple as moving stuff in and out. It would be more like two funiture movers hacking your front door open with axes and ruining your door frame so the door never quite locks securely and could never keep you safe again. They then would enter into your home with chainsaws and cut up all of your furniture and belongings into shreds so they can easily move it out all the while not really caring if they carelessly chainsawed away any other house structures and home furnishings ie. stairways, headers, windows, drapes, countertops,, fireplaces, expensive kitchen appliances etc…
Your house would never be the same. Not really pleasant to live in anymore. You would would have sad memories of all of your furniture laying in pieces outside your front door until the garbage man would come and pick them up for disposal.
You would look around your sad beat up house and try to move new furniture and belongings in, but nothing really matters anymore because you realized you have ruined your home it will never be the same and don’t want to live there anymore.
@Jasper: Awwww, did you plagiarize that all on your own?
“1. That which is being aborted is a blob of tissue.”
You know what’s really funny? The only people I’ve ever heard this from is pro-lifers. All the pro-choicers know what it is – an embryo/fetus. What some pro-choicers argue is that the embryo or fetus is not a person. Personally, I don’t think that has anything to do with abortion rights, but whatever.
“2. Abortions are good for women.”
Some yes, and some no. And I hope the women who regret their choice seek help. But the fact that some people make bad choices is no reason to take a right away. Some people make bad choices in exercising their freedom of speech. Should we take that right away too? Some people make bad eating choices. Should we take away even more of their rights over what goes in their bodies?…. Touch those toes, Winston! Big Brother is watching you.
Oh, and Jill, you are equivicating. A right is a right. The extra normative judgment is a separate issue. On my grumpier days I think that the right to vote has been bad for a large majority of Americans, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have that right. Perhaps the right of the criminal against unreasonable search and seizure, which gets him out of jail, actually is bad for him in this case, since he might have reformed otherwise. But it’s still his right. I’m fascinated, though, by your equivocation within a strawman. My roommate is composing a test for his logic students, can he use that? How many more fallacies can you pile on?
“3. We don’t want those kinds of people (insert reason here: poor, uneducated, unmarried, etc.) to reproduce anyway.”
Uh… what? I would think this would be a reason that some of the right wing, bigoted nutjobs would see as tempting, but as an actual serious argument for abortion rights? Please.
When is the pro-life side actually going to engage in a real argument rather than building strawmen up and then gleefully beating them to the ground? Nevermind. I know when. It’s when people actually stop lapping up faulty logic, emotional appeals, dogma and rhetoric and actually base their opinions on fact and solid reasoning. Someday… someday…
yea, so what?
Sandy, except you’re forgetting that, in the case of abortion which the analogy is supposed to match, you want that furniture out of your house. Now, given the analogy that you’ve constructed, should you not have that right?
Oh, and Rae and Cameron, you guys rock. I haven’t laughed that hard in a while.
“And I can’t think of a better Master. I mean, He died for me.”
not really, he is god and can’t die. And probably knew that going in, so he didn’t give up much of anything for you.
Exactly, Diana, I’m not too horribly attached to my furniture in the way that if it was hacked to pieces I would cry over it.
Diana,
The founder of the despicable planned parenthood-
“More children from the fit, less from the unfit
WOW, I’ve missed a doozy tonight, dam Chemistry!!
Midnite!
Any more rain in Alabama? It rained here today!
oh JK it was absolutely wonderful! It rained hard for like thirty minutes today. We got 4 inches, it’s not a lot, but a little is better than none when you’re in a stage three drought…
I was glad it finally decided to rain here, if only for a little while. Its been sooo dry all summer.
Diana “On my grumpier days I think that the right to vote has been bad for a large majority of Americans, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have that right.”
the arrogance is overwhelming…..but not unexpected..
Yeah, this summer is kicking Bama’s @$s to Hades and back. It’s not as bad as the drought in 2000 though..
Per Diane,
“Sandy, except you’re forgetting that, in the case of abortion which the analogy is supposed to match, you want that furniture out of your house. Now, given the analogy that you’ve constructed, should you not have that right?”
Diane,
You missed the point. I never stated my analogy didn’t include the “right” to get rid of unwanted stuff. It was to point out how distructive the “right” is.
And no, obviously I don’t think you should have the right to abort. That wasn’t the point of my analogy.
Per Diane,
“Oh, and Rae and Cameron, you guys rock. I haven’t laughed that hard in a while.”
Yes, Diane let’s all have a great big giant laugh about abortion. It is so hilarious.
Please.
Per Diane,
Uh… what? I would think this would be a reason that some of the right wing, bigoted nutjobs would see as tempting, but as an actual serious argument for abortion rights? Please.
Actually Diane, if you look at all of the money given in donations to the poor and uneducated, it comes from rightwing conservatives who actually care about these people enough to give them financial assistance through their own earnings.
It’s the left wing nutbags who can’t find it in their stealy hearts to donate to anyone since they feel it’s the government’s job to feed, clothe, support, educate and pay for abortions for unwanted children. Give me a break.
But, watch, later on there’ll be flooding. It always seems to be feast or famine.
*tacklehug midnite*
Ooooh! How was chemistry for you? I’m typing a lab report about isopentyl alcohol synthesis. :D
And Diana: Your welcome, I guess, didn’t realize I made you chuckle. :)
“It’s the left wing nutbags who can’t find it in their stealy hearts to donate to anyone since they feel it’s the government’s job to feed, clothe, support, educate and pay for abortions for unwanted children.”
Umm…Sandy. Hello. How do they do that?
Through higher taxes.
Sandy, you appear to be a very angry and bitter woman. I’m sad to see this.
*tacklehugs Rae*
Eh, Chem is Chem; it didnt like me in highschool and it *really* doesnt like me now apparently.
“Safe and Legal”
Today, abortion is justified by claiming the killing of babies is “safe and legal.” Dr. Michael Jackson, an abortionist and clinic owner said, “I just go by what the courts say. I only do what’s legal.” These were the same justifications used by doctors who participated in the massacre of millions at Auschwitz. Zyklon-B, the poison gas used to kill the Jews, was seen as helping to alleviate suffering and permit “humane killing”.
At Nuremberg, numerous Nazi doctors and killers said they were innocent because they had broken no law. “The jurists in Berlin told us this was a legal matter,” testified Walter Schmidt, “quite legal.” According to an expert on Auschwitz, “The Nazis committed no crime at Auschwitz since no law or political order protected those who were condemned.”
In fact, the legality itself helped to distance the killers from the killing – if it was legally ordered or at least permitted, then the killing was someone else’s fault. At the trial held for nurses who injected infants and children with lethal substances, the heart of their defense of was that the killing was carried out in conformity of the existing laws. The defense claimed that “these people were only carrying out the laws of the land” and “the accused did not act wrongly because they were covered by law.”
I never had to take Chem in college, I took 2 astronomy classes instead. :-)
Jasper, now honestly, I think you are more intelligent than that, you ought to make up your own arguments as opposed to just copy-pasting other people’s arguments.
Organic Chemistry (or Orgasmic Chemistry, as the Chem nuts like to call it here in Berkeley) is pure evil, yet at the same time I love it. =P
what’s the matter Rae, you can’t handle the truth?
getting tired of defending baby killing??
haha Michael Jackson is an abortion doctor AND a pedophile? WHO WOULD’VE THUNK IT!!
hehe…
Midnite, other pro-deathers,
why do think this is a laughing matter?
Jasper, I am not pro death, and I am not going to correct you of this again. I just find it some what humerous that an abortion doctor is name Michael Jackson, considering another MJ is an un-convicted pedophile. Sorry for trying to see the humor in life.
Now then anything else you’d like bi*c# about now?
it’s part of “they’re” “ignoarance”
oh and evil too.
jasper if you cant see why they’re laughing then perhaps you need a pop culture update ;)
Luv, seriously how long has it been since your last grammar lesson?
I believe the form you’re looking for now is “their”
And like Midnite I’m trying to see the humor in life.
Luv: I havent called anyone ignorant today.
And I am not evil either. Way to show you’re a Christian though, seriously.
Thank You Dan.
Atleast two other people besides me are seeing the humor in my sarcastic post.
midnite, i didn’t need to call YOU evil, it was the laughing while dealing with the issue of killing babies that is evil.
JK,
why divert attention and focus on petty spelling errors, etc.
I still didn’t get an answer from Rae on why 13 week-olds have a right to life and 12 week-olds don’t. There is no basis for this other than “oh, what the heck, thats just what I believe”….
@Stephanie: OOOOOOH! That’s what I call Organic chemistry because I absolutely love it! I would love to continue in it but I refuse to take more math than Calc I so I was like, “Screw that”. :D
@Jasper: No, I can handle it, it’s just not accurate (in my opinion) to compare the murder of sentient human beings to fetuses (which are also human beings…but are non-persons).
@Midnite: Let’s just admit we’re pro-death, I mean come on…we just LOVE watching things die.
jasper I put both in quotes because jk pointed out on another post that I had a grammatical error so I pointed out that jk had spelled the word ignorant incorrectly. Apparently jk didn’t really like it and didn’t “get it” when I posted here.
@Jasper: The reason a 13 week old fetus gets a “right to life” and a 12 week old doesn’t is because a 13 week fetus is more developed than a 12 week fetus. A 13 week fetus has more central nervous system development than a 12 week old fetus. That’s why.
Rae,
Com’on, look it up in the dictionary, a person is a human being.
In what way did I not “get it”?
What happened to ignoring me luv? You seem to be very bad at it.
@Luv: Listen you old bitter woman. I am sorry that I saw Michael Jackson (nevermind the fact he’s an abortion doctor) and automatically thought of Michael Jackson the pedophile (although I should be politically correct here and say, he’s never been found guily).
I was not laughing at the fact that z/e/f (or baby of you will) has died.
Once again I am trying to see the humor in life, and I found my **SARCASTIC** post quite amusing. One a friendly word of advice though, you shouldnt be so serious all the time. It causes wrinkles, stress and BITC*INE$S in the older years honey.
just as a 12 year old has more nervous system development than an 11 year old.
@Jasper: Nope. Person =/= human being. Personhood is a philosophical concept, where human being is a biological concept. You can be a human being but not necessarily a person (personhood is granted at birth, at least it is in the United States).
But do you really want to go into this *again*?
@Luvmy5kids: Nope. That’s not true. Sure, the brain might still be developing, but not in the way it is in utero. In utero, neurons are being formed, meaning they weren’t there before and they are now. Where as in the case of an 11 or 12 year old, the neural capabilities are already there, they are just being fine-tuned to make more accurate and swift “pathways” among the neural networks. So, no the CNS is fully developed, it’s just being fine-tuned at that point, which is definitely not the same as “just developing”.
midnite, where is this bitterness you are speaking of. People who know me, by the way, would laugh hysterically if they heard you say I was serious all the time. I just know when to be serious and when things can be laughed at. That maturity must come with my “old age”
Silly pro-death retoric Rae, this just used to justify killing the unborn (like slavery). Look it up “person” in the dictionary.
@LUV: You seem bitter to me (just like I seem “evil” to you). And People who know me would probably smack you in the face for saying that about me. I am probably the least evil person in Alabama if not the SouthEast. And no, you’re not all that mature either. I am not going to apologize for making a connection between the name Michael Jackson and the pedophile/abortion comment. You need to remove the stick that is shoved where the sun doesnt shine and learn to take a joke hun.
*sigh*
To be honest though Jasper, personhood doesn’t even matter to me. For all I care the fetus could be a person, abortion would still be permissible.
Rae,
why does a 13 week-old fetsus have a right to life, but a 12 week-old fetus does not. Is there something scientific behind your conclusion?
Jasper can you read?!? She already excplained that to you!
Oh I get it Rae, development is the point of no return, once you’re (how’s that JK?) in the stage of fine-tuning then you’re (there it is again!)safe?
*explained: typo
I hold to the theory that it must be a glitch in jasper’s computer, that makes him post the same question even after it has already been answered.
@Jasper: I already wrote about it. I said the CNS system of a 13 week fetus is more developed than a 12 week fetus and is capable to reacting to noxious stimuli, unlike a 12 week fetus who’s nervous system is not able to react.
You’re a fast learner, luv, but still doing a horrible job of ignoring me.
Nice midnite, that’s really kind of you. Once again I didn’t call you evil, but what you were doing evil. This kindness that you are exhibiting must be what all those people you are talking about see in you.
You know something Luv. Saying what I am doing/saying is basically a round about way of saying you’re evil. It’s just a nicer more sugar coated version. And no, I am very nice and respectful on here when I am not provoked first. Which I may say I was having a lovely conversation with Rae and JK when you called what I was doing evil. So you started this deary. You treat me with the respect I deserve and I shall do the same for you. Maybe you were absent that day in school, or you’re forgetting it in your old age.
@Luvmy5kids: It’s more complicated than that, and you know it, well then again, you probably don’t. Whatever.
well I’ll say like you say it then, I guess you just “seem” evil. Is that better?
“I said the CNS system of a 13 week fetus is more developed than a 12 week fetus and is capable to reacting to noxious stimuli, unlike a 12 week fetus who’s nervous system is not able to react.”
what a weak argument Rae to remove his right to life. at 12 weeks his brain is formed, major body parts, digective tract, etc. how cruel.
http://medicalimages.allrefer.com/large/fetus-12-weeks-old.jpg
that’s the thing rae, it’s not complicated at all! Abortion is murder, it’s ending a life. It’s the pro-choicers that try to make appear complicated.
No it’s not Luv. I didnt personally attack you today or any other day to be exact. Every time we “butt” heads it’s because you provoke me first. If you stay civil with me (without name calling i.e. I am evil, a sinner, a pro-deather or a satan worshiper etc.). Unlike you, I can have civil, aduly, friendly conversation on here without verbally attacking someone.
Where’s the blood and guts in the pic per your usual, jasper?
@Jasper: *sigh* you know that picture is inaccurate. Hold on, I’ll go find a *real* picture of a 12 week old. The brain is FORMING, it’s no where near completion. Ditto with all the other parts, they are “there” but they are far from being remotely functional. So in reality, it’s not cruel at all, you just think it is. But you know what? I couldn’t care less what you think, just as you couldn’t care less what I think.
Um Luv:
The last time I checked abortions are not considered murder. A murder is illegal and is punishable by a court of law. I dont see the Court system handing down prison sentences for women getting abortions. Try “Abortions are a killing”.
Rae, I do care what you think.
Ok, show me a real 12 week old…thats a medical website. Is this one better Rae, another real pic from a 3d ultrasound from the left-wing BBC. The 12 week baby is walking in the womb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3846525.stm
Heart is beating at 12 weeks as well, as I heard it myself at my wifes checkup.
Midnite,
when do you think abortions should legal to ? what week?
“considered murder” those being the key words, it’s still murder, knowingly killing, taking a life, snuffing it out, paying someone to do it!! I just will never know how pro-choicers sleep at night! I don’t think you were provoked either, if you can’t handle someone telling you that what you said is evil than I think you need anger management.
@Jasper: It’s not really walking…it does appear to be walking (and yes, I’ve seen that already…) and thanks for finding it for me.
Don’t really care that the heart is beating…but fantastic, because you know what? The way they confirmed my mom’s pregnancy with me was to listen for a heartbeat. This was at 8 weeks gestation. :)
Rae, Midnite,
what are your feelings about newborn babies? Do you like them? you know, to hold, etc….
“Don’t really care that the heart is beating”
why don’t you care Rae?
Midnite, Rae,
We are just going to have to face the fact that we are horrible evil people, and party it up later in hell. Which level are you all going to be? I’m at level 3.
I’ll be in level 6, JK.
Woo-hoo.
I’m scared of newborns. I’m afraid I’ll break them, they are so small and fragile. I don’t like to hold them because I’m afraid I’ll drop them. Besides, the last baby I’ve been around was my cousin 2 years ago.
I’ll have to come down and visit with some of my gluttonous comrades.
Rae –
Same here. And the last time I was around a newborn? When my brother was born twelve years ago.
Jasper: I am not answering that question, we’ve been though this argument before. No need to repeat it, dont have the energy at the moment honestly.
Luv: I dont need anger management, thanks deary. I know some on this site, though I shall not say who, have made violent threats to PC’s. I have never once made a threat to a PL or been unkind to them (if they didnt provoke me). I am sorry that I am not going to let someone say things about me that just are not true. And I am sure if I provoked you for no reason, with a condesending remark you would ask me not to call you that and respond in the same way I did. You need to grow up and learn to accept that some people have different opinions than you do. And just b/c someone thinks differently does not mean they are “evil”. Maybe you should look that word up, b/c I am 100% positive that my picture is not next to it.
And I never once thought I would utter/type these words, I MISS MK!! (She and I have been getting along quite well in the past week or so, and have adult, civil (and yes friendly) conversations…
I’m glad you can laugh about Hell now cause you won’t be laughing later! But of course that’s just what I believe so no I don’t expect you to believe it or worry about it either. Just glad I won’t be there with you.
Level 6 folks, level 6 City of Dis. :D
Rae: “Don’t really care that the heart is beating”
why don’t you care Rae?
Quite frankly, I think I like the company I’ll have in Hell loads better.
Jasper,
FYI the cardiovascular system starts devloping at around 3 weeks after conception. It develops faster than the CNS.
And I like newborns. I have no problem with them. I have already stated on here numerous times that I am a godmother to a three year old princess named Regan. My friend has a son that is one (I’ve been around him since he was born, and I am a babysitter frequently b/c he loves me), and my BF’s sister has a one year old son as well. He also loves me. I have never once met a child/infant/newborn that didnt love me BTW.
Why do they call it the city of Dis?
JK –
This is the only information I could find after a quick search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_%28Divine_Comedy%29
“Quite frankly, I think I like the company I’ll have in Hell loads better.”
Ok, you shall have it…
“Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company”
“”Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company””
Good Omens quote perhaps?
It sounds like something that would be in there.
Yeah, if there is a hell (which I dont think there is a heaven or hell btw)then I guess I am driving the bus!! And as long as my Rae and Heather B., Cam, and Amanda are along for the ride I’ll be just fine and dandy…
@Jasper: It’s not so much that I don’t care, it’s just irrelevant.
@JK: I have no idea, I think it’s a mythological thing.
Midnite,
what week would’ve it been OK to abort Regan at? in your view? 20? 25? 32? when did she have a right to life?
heretics, assassins, suicides, fraudulents and traitors-you’re hardcore hellbound then.
Alright I am off to bed now ladies and gentleman. I’ve had a long day and have got another one comming tomorrow.
“Please dont stick your head, arms or legs outside the bus and watch the door as it closes. NOW HANG ON FOR THE RIDE OF YOUR LIFE”.
bwahahahahahaha
JK –
I think what put me there was some question regarding allegiance/patriotism to your country.
Heather,
I believe its a Mark Twain quote
Jasper I shall answer this question quickly then I am seriously off to bed. Considering I am not her mother, I dont have a say so in the matter. Her mother “chose” to give her life, not me, hence I am not her mother. Does that answer the question for you. And honestly it is irrelevant b/c she’s three and has already been born.
Goodnight, Midnite.
I really should stop procrastinating as well…but we’ll see how that goes.
Hmm…I probably would’ve gone there, if not for the gluttony thing.
Darn my heretical nature and occasional suicidal thoughts…
Haha.
Off-topic, but I love Hyde from “That 70s Show”.
Jasper, throwing Bible verses at me (I can’t speak for anyone else) is pointless. As far as I’m concerned it’s a work of fiction.
Yes, kind of off topic, but I also love Hyde from “That 70s Show”
:-)
@Heather: Oh my gosh! I love Hyde too! He cracks me up! That and I like his hair…
JK –
He’s by far my favorite character :D. Gotta love the snarky comments.
Good Night and may God Bless you all….
Rae –
One of my friends reminds me of Hyde. If I wasn’t with Darren and I thought it would work out….
“they have this car, that runs on water man!”
Good night Jasper, talk to you tomorrow. :)
Oh Hyde…my organic chemistry TA looks like Alexander Siddig from Star Trek: DS9.
It makes me a happy chemist. ^_^
Derrick (the friend) is seriously one of my favorite people. He’ll be joining us in this Hell, ladies.
I know a guy that has hair like Hyde’s
Great, more company for us in Hell. And of course the real Hyde will be there too.
Oh, of course.
Loads of snarkiness all around.
midnite,
“And I am sure if I provoked you for no reason, with a condesending remark you would ask me not to call you that and respond in the same way I did.”
“@LUV: You seem bitter to me”
“You need to grow up”
“Unlike you, I can have civil, aduly, friendly conversation on here without verbally attacking someone”
“Maybe you were absent that day in school, or you’re forgetting it in your old age”
“You seem bitter to me”
“You need to remove the stick that is shoved where the sun doesnt shine and learn to take a joke hun.”
Well those are some of the ways that I could have felt provoked and lashed out at you. Nope, I didn’t, I said that lauging during this discussion was evil, you can contest that it isn’t evil, but I didn’t “provoke” you. So in your own words “You need to grow up and learn to accept that some people have different opinions than you do” I think laughing like you guys were doing was evil. Deal with it. You don’t have to agree with it.
Hooray for snarkiness! :-)
From what I gathered, Midnite was the one who was initially provoked on this topic.
She simply retaliated.
We weren’t even laughing evilly, either. The guy’s name was Michael Jackson. It was IRONIC.
Jasper,
I’m aware of Sanger’s eugenics stance. And? As far as I know she didn’t use it as an argument in favor of abortion.
And I’m not arrogant, I’m just well aware of how the American populace makes voting decisions, and I find it appalling, as should any educated individual.
Sandy,
“You missed the point. I never stated my analogy didn’t include the “right” to get rid of unwanted stuff. It was to point out how distructive the “right” is.”
Oh. My apologies. I thought you had started by asking whether you had the right to throw your kids out of your house because you own it, Cameron pointed out how those cases were disanalogous and demonstrated a way of fixing the analogy and things went from there. If all you want to say is that abortion involves the destruction of something, well, okay. And? I don’t think anyone here disputes that.
“And no, obviously I don’t think you should have the right to abort. That wasn’t the point of my analogy.”
I’m fully aware of that. I thought the point of the original analogy was that you DON’T have the right to abort, and it didn’t work out that way. If I misinterpreted, well, my bad.
“Yes, Diane let’s all have a great big giant laugh about abortion. It is so hilarious.
Please.”
Did I say I was laughing about abortion? No. Is every comment on this thread about abortion? No. You’re going to tell me you’ve never read a post on this blog and chuckled because of someone’s wit? Please. If that’s the case you must have NOOO sense of humor, because I’ve been made to giggle or laugh a number of times by posts made by those on both sides.
“Actually Diane, if you look at all of the money given in donations to the poor and uneducated, it comes from rightwing conservatives who actually care about these people enough to give them financial assistance through their own earnings. It’s the left wing nutbags who can’t find it in their stealy hearts to donate to anyone since they feel it’s the government’s job to feed, clothe, support, educate and pay for abortions for unwanted children. Give me a break.”
That may be true, it may not. I don’t have stats. I’m neither right or left wing, so you can say whatever you want about either camp, I personally think both have their nutjobs. But this little comment of yours had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with my post (which was partially in jest, anyway). I said bigoted rightwing nutjobs might be tempted by this reason. Note the word “bigoted” – you think those people who still believe that african americans and hispanics are inferior still really CARE about them as people? Give me a break.
Honestly, I go to a very wealthy school and I teach wealthy college students who are mostly rightwing (and also mostly white). However much their parents give to the poor, caring is not what I would call their attitude toward the lower classes or toward minorities. Of course, the plural of anecdote is not data. After all, it’s possible that this relatively liberal catholic university is unrepresentative and the more conservative institutions have more minorites and have student populations that are complete caring toward all non-wasps (or in this case non-wascs perhaps?).
And finally, and this is to everyone, my name is *Diana*, not Diane. “A” not “E”. I’m not trying to be a witch or anything, but it’s one of my biggest personal pet peeves.
“provoked”
I said that what they we doing was evil. That left the door open I guess for all the above, that make it O.K. for midnite to become quite angry and mean.
whatever, I could have gotten all upset and lashed out with my words too but I made the choice not to. We all have that choice, a choice that kills nobody!
Diana,
People eff up my real name a lot too. I know how you feel.
“I’m not trying to be a witch or anything, but it’s one of my biggest personal pet peeves.”
I understand. My biggest pet peeve is when people add an “N” into my last name, even after I correct them repeatedly.
You lashed out at me, though, luv
wow ease up about the name dianA, it’s a simple mistake they are making, compare that to laughing about the abortion doctor and MJ.
Luv,
I wasn’t laughing about that (I wasn’t paying attention, though, so I can’t say I wouldn’t have). I really don’t mean to be mean about it, it’s just that for some reason recently everyone has been doing it. No one has had a problem until now, and it just happens to be this thing that I totally can’t stand.
Thanks, Heather and JK. I appreciate it. It’s the weirdest thing for me. Just one letter, but it drives me insane.
Diana –
No one got my name wrong before I moved to Tennessee. All of a sudden, it’s like no one can remember that there is NO “N” no matter how many times I correct them.
It gets annoying.
I started out of exasperation, to just answer to whatever people call me.
I remember one of my classmates completely got my first name wrong.
She called me Michelle =/
She called me that the entire year we had class together, too.
My grandmother used to call me by my cousin’s name, but she did have Alzheimer’s.
Oh, man, Heather. That stinks. I can never understand why people can’t accept the correction and work with it. Especially when it something like just one letter. I had a professor a few semesters ago that called me “Diane” for the whole semester, even though I repeatedly corrected him. I don’t get it. You say “No ‘N'”, I say “Oops, sorry” and I stop saying it with an ‘N’. It doesn’t seem all that hard!
You’d think, Diana, but people are funny sometimes.
Ha ha! Oh, no Heather! I did have something similar happen last semester. There are only two girls still taking courses in my PhD program – me and my friend Emily. Our metaphysics professor repeatedly confused us, calling me Emily and her Diana. We were always so shocked, like, you get the names of all the 10 boys in this class just fine, but you can’t pinpoint properly two very different looking girls?!
Anyway, ladies, I have an earlier flight tomorrow (well, today now, technically), so I should head to bed. Hope everyone has a wonderful evening.
Goodnight and have a good day.
Goodnite, Diana, have a safe flight!
I should go to bed too, night, all!
“You’d think, Diana, but people are funny sometimes.”
Seriously, JK. Sometimes I wish I’d gone into psychology just so I could have some idea of where little idiosyncrisies like not being able to correct a one letter difference come from. Ah well. I guess I’ll just have to wonder.
Anyway. G’night all.
One of the major reasons given by teens and younger adults is that children are a “burden” and a real inconvenience that gets in the way of their living the “full life” they believe they deserve to live.
I suppose that reasoning could fall under the umbrella of #2
Sandy,
I guess you’ve had some bad moving experience or something. Or perhaps it’s all those abortions you’ve probably had and that you’ve been rendered infertile.
Even with your desperate qualifications of the analogy, could you at least provide an answer for your version of it?? Should those two moving guys, or you for foolishly hiring them, be arrested for simply attempting to change your house-hold conditions?
I think it’s incredibly amusing, the effort you exert to not actually answer.
Per Cameron
“Or perhaps it’s all those abortions you’ve probably had and that you’ve been rendered infertile.”
Cameron.
Once again, you prove to everyone that you are childish and just mean. I make a solid effort to attack the the issue and respond to statements made and not to make personal attacks against anyone. It’s called discussion.
I have gathered that you are quite smart and scholarly. Why do you feel like you have to stoop to the level of hurtful personal attacks?
Where is the outrage of the pro-choicers to defend me??? I will wait and see. Anyone care to call Cameron on his personal attack?? Last week I was called “smutty” and “stupid” just in case you missed it.
Per Cameron
“I think it’s incredibly amusing, the effort you exert to not actually answer.”
Cameron,
I did answer the question. You probably missed it though as you were too busy trying to think of your next snide hurtful comment.
My response was:
“And no, obviously I don’t think you should have the right to abort. That wasn’t the point of my analogy.”
Although the answer to that question was too obvious and redundant to even answer, but I did.
Care to apologize???
Sorry for the first time quad post???? Don’t know how THAT happened.
I’m going for blob of tissue and good for women.
Sandy,
I neither understand how your strawman qualification of the original analogy provides an answer, nor what requires an apology.
Despite your amusing attempt to qualify and construct a strawman, the answer to the analogy is self-evident; no, nobody has the right to tell you what you can do with your furniture in your own house… just as nobody has the right to take your organs or force you do something with your body that you don
Diana, which school do you teach at?
Cameron,
“Moving along, what exactly should I apologize for?”
Please really you had to ask that??? For the following statement that was insensitive, disrespectful and rude.
“Or perhaps it’s all those abortions you’ve probably had and that you’ve been rendered infertile.”
Per Cameron:
“Despite your amusing attempt to qualify and construct a strawman, the answer to the analogy is self-evident; no, nobody has the right to tell you what you can do with your furniture in your own house… just as nobody has the right to take your organs or force you do something with your body that you don
Sandy,
I appologize for suggesting you’ve had oodles of abortions. It was clearly intended to ellicit your ire.
“Again Cameron you prove yourself to be incompetent of understanding the point I was trying to make.”
I understand your strawman clearly: that abortion damages the womb and makes the woman feel badly… supposedly. Like Diana said though, you haven’t actually answered the analogy regarding a right to move things out of your house… because it’s self-evident and not in harmony with your emotional appeals.
“No. I could really care less that you “think” you one-upped me on this study. I am not going to re-hash an issue that you refuse to understand from my perspective. You tried to skew a study with numbers in my opinion that had no relevence to the topic.”
OMG… the fun never ceases. So, if I’ve got this straight, you still actually believe that the study that you cut n past demonstrates that abortion is three times more likely to cause death than pregnancy???
PIP – I’d rather not say, just because given that piece of information, it would be really easy for anyone whose read this board enough to find me (after all, graduate student named Diana in the philosophy department of X university? – that’s all you need). And while I trust most of those who post around here not to come do something crazy, you never know who’s reading on the internet.
I know it sounds paranoid, but several years ago I had to get a restraining order against someone I met on the internet, and ever since then I’ve stuck with the better paranoid than sorry motto.
FYI, On page 2 I’ve posted Dr. Harrison’s answers as to which two legs of the stool she thinks have been knocked out to my post question.
Sorry Diana, just curious as I also go to a private Catholic school with a cool philosophy department.
PIP – No need to apologize. It’s my own weirdness. A stalker will do that to you. Although now I’m seriously curious as to whether or not we’re at the same school. Have you taken philosophy classes?
I know it sounds paranoid, but several years ago I had to get a restraining order against someone I met on the internet, and ever since then I’ve stuck with the better paranoid than sorry motto.
Wow, that’s awful Diana. I’m sorry to hear that.
Yes, I have taken intro to philosophy so far. Next class is Ethics, which I’m taking next year. We are required 9 hours so after Ethics it is elective. Any subject you recommend?
one leg = (pro-aborts)blob of tissue nixed by 3D and 4D imaging …. next step – physical similarity of pre and post born humans … 2nd and 3rd trimesters … final step is to show the similarity of basic functioning of 3rd trimester babies (especially after 21 weeks) and use ‘pain’ as primary function-focus.
leg collapses permanently!!!!!!!!
“Wow, that’s awful Diana. I’m sorry to hear that.”
Thanks, Bethany. The guy probably wouldn’t have harmed me, but you never know. It was creepy
Pip – You’re required 9 hours? Oh my. Now I’m REALLY wondering if we’re at the same university. What’s the last name of your intro phil professor?
As for recommendations, well, I absolutely love epistemology (theory of knowledge) philosophy of langauge and metaphysics. Some people who don’t totally get into philosophy prefer ethics related stuff. If you’re interested in going into law or the like, intro logic is a really good class. Studies have shown that people who take logic do far better on the LSAT, GRE, GMAT and MCAT. It can be difficult (especially if you don’t take an intro and instead take symbolic logic or the like), but it really helps with the reasoning and analysis skills.
Diana-
My last phil prof was Murphy-he didn’t have a doctorate at the time but was studying for his doctorate, I think.
I heard logic helps for GRE (which is the test I’d be taking). Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely check it out.
Diana,
“My friend” who I mentioned in previous posts as having spent time in prison had a very hard and fast rule. ALWAYS trust your instincts. If your gut tells you something isn’t right, it isn’t. This is what you did concerning this possible stalker and may be alive now because of it. Never argue with your instincts. “My friend”, may he rest in peace, would be very proud of you!
Diana,
You may wonder why I would mention the advise of an ex-con but who better? He had street smarts that didn’t stop and he taught my family and I a lot as to how to protect ourselves, the rule mentioned in my previous post to you being his golden rule for self protection.!