Aurora City Council meeting, October 9
Pro-abort commenter Laura queried late last night, “How did the big council meeting go? Was anyone there? It’s pretty hard to drum up a crowd once these things are a done deal…”
Laura was right if she was speaking of Planned Parenthood, which had a total of three protesters outside and not many more inside. Otherwise the place was packed with pro-lifers and police, both protesting the mayor.
Pro-lifers dominated the comments portion of the meeting, which the City Council limited to two hours.
Eric Scheidler live-blogged the evening.
Laura, one major point continually brought up: If they thought pro-lifers were going away, they were wrong.
Related articles:
“Aurora faces its critics,” Daily Herald
“Aurora mayor defends his actions over clinic,” Daily Herald
[Photos courtesy of Families Against Planned Parenthood]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Abortion has been legal for 34 years. We are going to keep fighting to change that.
To write a letter to the editor please email opinion@seacoastonline.com
The National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League, NARAL, expended millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours prior to Tuesday?s election trying to alert voters to the consequences of giving Republicans total control of both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government. However, as we all saw, those efforts went for naught.
New Hampshire was one of the 10 states targeted by NARAL, and it is safe to say that virtually every voter in this and every other state was made aware of the group?s presence and message through the huge and repeated target mailings. The reason why that massive effort may have failed here, and in most other key elections for U.S. Senate, is because the target was the wrong one and the fundamental message was presented incorrectly.
NARAL rightly claimed that giving the Republicans the majority in the House and Senate would result in the appointment of more socially conservative judges to the federal bench at all levels. The group also pointed out that the ages and states of health of some of the justices of the Supreme Court virtually assured that one or more would be leaving the high court within the next two years, giving the Bush administration and the Republican Senate the ability to appoint and confirm justices who could swing the majority to overturn Roe v. Wade if the right case came before the court.
We believe NARAL was absolutely right in its analysis and are very concerned that women will lose the right to choose whether to terminate an unwanted pregnancy and, even worse, could be kept from information concerning contraception alternatives as a result of rulings by a conservative Supreme Court.
The problem was NARAL?s message was aimed at a generation of women, ages 25 to 55, most of whom were not aware of the consequences when society makes abortions illegal and that the organization failed to make those consequences tangible to this audience.
Those who were adults prior to the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973 are now in their late 40s and older – old enough to remember the back-alley abortions that left so many people physically and emotionally maimed.
We remember the wire coat hangers, the filthy back rooms and shady practitioners who were more interested in the money than the health of their patients. We all know the shame and degradation experienced by those who were so desperate for abortions that they traveled to the slums of this country?s large cities or remote rural locations for procedures that threatened their lives.
But that was not the message conveyed to the female electorate by NARAL. Abortion rights has become an intellectual and political argument rather than a visceral and desperate desire for this organization. The discussion is all about power, not about the safety and health of women who make a mistake they are too poor or too young to deal with.
NARAL?s national president, Kate Michelman, who came to New Hampshire for the express purpose of supporting Democrat Jeanne Shaheen for U.S. Senate, said after the election that “it would be a serious mistake for politicians to read (Tuesday?s) results as a mandate to insert themselves in women?s personal choices.”
We believe it was NARAL and Michelman that erred by not making real the impact of what the end of the right to abortions would be to women who have never experienced that reality. It was NARAL?s and Michelman?s mistake to take abortion out of the realm of health and safety, and convert it to something ethereal by using words like “fundamental freedom” and “a woman?s right to make her own medical decisions.”
Abortion rights were established to protect the weakest women trying to save themselves from the risks associated with back-alley abortions and their unwanted children from lives of poverty and rejection. That has always been the case for abortion rights and that is the case NARAL failed to make in the election just passed.
Despite all the money spent and the hours worked, it is now possible that a whole new generation of young women may very well have to experience what their grandmothers and great-grandmothers experienced from a society unwilling to see a woman in trouble as anything but a sinner.
–
I was up early this morning. I found this lame article. I just find it strange that they are all so blinded by what is happening in America’s abortion clinics today. Get it together! Nothing has changed! They try to put fear into people, and it’s frustrating.
Back on topic: BTW, my hat goes off to all of these wonderful people who showed up!
Check out the part of my post that says: Abortion rights were established to protect the weakest women. Did they mean protect or prey on?
Weakest women??? They are assuming that women didn’t know the risks of back-alley abortions. Of course they knew the risks. They just ignored them. Seems like it it the proaborts who infantilize women by assuming they didn’t know the consequences of their actions.
Heather, I love the part where they say they are trying to protect unwanted children from poverty and rejection. I had no idea that proabort organizations were actually childrens’ rights advocates. It really bothers me when people say that abused or poor children would be better off dead. Like I said in another thread, I am glad I’m here eventhough I went through certain as a child. Where there’s life, there’s hope.
I’m glad to hear that the prolifers are keeping the pressure on.
Carrie, thank you. I agree. Also, this “poor and poverty stricken” stuff just doesn’t wash with me. Here’s why: Every single post abortive woman I knew/know had more than enough money to care for a child. They just didn’t want to be bothered!! NARAL likes to paint this picture of a woman in a slum somewhere, with no food or running water. That’s just not the case. Most of my pro abort friends own their houses, own cars, and they have excellent jobs. Their abortions were a result of casual sex.
Carrie, another good point. If you’re poor, you deserve to die.
This comment from the article is pretty interesting:
“But that was not the message conveyed to the female electorate by NARAL. Abortion rights has become an intellectual and political argument rather than a visceral and desperate desire for this organization. The discussion is all about power, not about the safety and health of women who make a mistake they are too poor or too young to deal with.”
Abortion access is intellectual and political for NARAL not for prolifers who are visceral in showing the pictures of what abortion really is: death not freedom.
Sure the discussion is about power. NARAL wants their view to be the only view.
Even if she is young or poor, she can give her baby for adoption.
Too young? As far as I am aware there is no species of mammal capable of reproducing before physically reaching adulthood. Calling a fifteen year old a child doesn’t make it so.
The well known psychologist Piaget and many others have measured reasoning skills and capacities and have been unable to show an increase beyond the age of 15.
That means the reasoning capacity of the average of a group of 15 year olds is equal to that of a group of 25 year olds, 35 year olds etc. when measured with the same test.
Oh, and talk about paternalistic:
” women who make a mistake they are too poor or too young to deal with.”
These are the same women that they paint as competent when it suits their purpose.
Hippe, I looked up some abortion stats for MA. Of the 25,000+ abortions performed in 2002, only 1425 were performed on patients under 17 and under. 20-24 8171, 25-29 5745, 30-34 3893, 35-39 2493, 40-44 940, and 45+ 95. I wonder why the abortion industry likes to promote the myth that only young women get abortions? Could it be that the image of a young “scared” girl garners more sympathy?
Carrie, yes.
Abortion has been legal for 34 years in this country, however, it has NEVER been right or moral.
If we are to change anything, it is people’s hearts.
To support abortion in any form is an indication of a heart darkened and led astray, a heart believing a lie, a heart deceived.
Those who were adults prior to the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973 are now in their late 40s and older – old enough to remember the back-alley abortions that left so many people physically and emotionally maimed.
We remember the wire coat hangers, the filthy back rooms and shady practitioners who were more interested in the money than the health of their patients.
Crocodile tears. I’ll believe that the abortion lobby really cares about women when they start caring about the women who are dying now. What about Sharlon Hamplton, shoved out the door to bleed to death in the back seat of her mother’s car on the drive home, her 3-year-old son in her arms? What about Leigh Ann Alford, sent home to bleed to death from a treatable injury? What about Christen Gilbert, the 19-year-old mentally challenged rape victim who was pushed on a luggage cart out to the abortion clinic van from the hotel room George Tiller uses instead of a hospital?
When the abortion lobby cares about these women, I’ll beleive that there’s even a shred of truth to their claims that they do it all for the women. The only people who are benefitting from legality are the abortionists who kill these women and the professional agitators they pay to lie to the public.
We believe it was NARAL and Michelman that erred by not making real the impact of what the end of the right to abortions would be to women who have never experienced that reality.
Or maybe the younger genation of women has “enjoyed” the “benefits” of “safe and legal” abortion and found out that it’s nothing but snake oil. Maybe they found out that the pain and horror are inherent in killing your baby, that nothing a legislator does with a pen can change the reality of what some butcher does with medical instruments.
Mayor Weisner and Police Chief Powell;
bums
I have said this before, now here is a quote with url.
http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/world/lectures/depressionresults.html
C. Decline in the world birthrate
When people feel increasingly insecure and view the future with deepened apprehension, they are less likely to marry and less eager to have children whom they may find it impossible to support. During the period of the Great Depression and for some years afterwards the world birthrate averaged about one-tenth lower than it had during the “prosperous” 1920’s.
A decline of one-tenth in the birthrate may not seem very significant. It meant that during the 1930’s there were about three less births per year for each thousand people than there would have been if the birthrate of the preceding decade had continued unchanged. By 1930 the global population had reached two billion, so a drop of three per thousand in the birthrate meant some six million fewer babies were born in a year.
It meant that, between 1930 and 1940, approximately 550 million babies were born into the world instead of perhaps 600 million that might have been born if there had been no Depression. Fifty million human beings is a total greater than all the soldiers and civilians killed in both world wars. ”
Again, tell me how abortion is the “cure all.” My friend is 54 years old, and she had 2 abortions when she was in her 20’s. Now she lives in a tiny apartment, and makes minimum wage working at a drugstore. She’s gone from one dysfunctional relationship to another. She’s been physically abused by boyfriends, and she was a raging alcoholic for most of her life. I’m happy to say that she’s been sober for 2 years. Weren’t these abortions suppossed to free her up, so she could attend school? If so, she never did. Weren’t they suppossed to help her to have a better life? Yes, abortion solved it all! She’s just thriving!
Also] forgot to add to my above post…She REGRETS her abortions. She is very lonesome.
Heather: “Every single post abortive woman I knew/know had more than enough money to care for a child.”
That’s true for some, I’m sure. The young women I knew in college who had abortions sure couldn’t have afforded a child, however.
Hal, perhaps they shold have thought twice before having sex then. I’m actually getting used to your “cart before the horse” debates though. I see it in most PCers here.
A woman I know had two abortions during her college years so she could finish her education. After she graduated, she was depressed, worked part time for low wages until my friend gave her a job as a favor to me. She got pregnant again, but finally a decent guy who married her. She now has three kids, and her career is as a stay home mom. I don’t think she was ever interested in a career. Her parents wanted her to finish college. Abortion did not improve her life or help her get a career. She chose to be a mom with no career outside of her family. It is society pushing its priorities on her that pressured her stay in school and into having abortions.
Hal,
you wrote:
That’s true for some, I’m sure. The young women I knew in college who had abortions sure couldn’t have afforded a child, however.
Posted by: Hal at October 10, 2007 9:20 AM
Could they have afforded to give the kids for adoption?
hippie, I just love your posts! How true it is. Believe me, I know plenty of women who did finish college only to hear them say, “I’d rather go back to being a waitress.” They are miserable! Like you said before about attaining “material things” over what’s really important.
“Could they have afforded to give the kids for adoption?”
Maybe, but they decided to have an abortion.
If we [pro-lifers] were to roll over and die everytime we faced a setback, there wouldn’t be 89 cities in 33 states praying, fasting and vigiling outside of Planned Parenthood AS WE SPEAK.
We never give up. This is FAR from a “done deal.” Even if Planned Parenthood remains open at that location, they’ll be seeing our pretty faces every. single. day.
Maybe, but they decided to have an abortion.
Which is a couple hundred (minimum) more expensive than an adoption plan (which costs nothing and also provides financial assistance).
So I guess your argument on college girls being too poor to choose life doesn’t hold much water, eh?
Too young? As far as I am aware there is no species of mammal capable of reproducing before physically reaching adulthood. Calling a fifteen year old a child doesn’t make it so.
Hippie, how many pregnancies have there been before the age of 15? Quite a lot…
Isn’t the earliest like 5 or 6 years old? An extreme example to be sure, but whether it’s 6 or 10 or 12, there really can be a “too young.”
Doug
To support abortion in any form is an indication of a heart darkened and led astray, a heart believing a lie, a heart deceived.
@@
Too poor to raise a child, not interested in having one just to give it up for adoption. Might not be your choice, but it was theirs.
Hello Jacque!!
My friend is 54 years old, and she had 2 abortions when she was in her 20’s. Now she lives in a tiny apartment, and makes minimum wage working at a drugstore. She’s gone from one dysfunctional relationship to another. She’s been physically abused by boyfriends, and she was a raging alcoholic for most of her life. I’m happy to say that she’s been sober for 2 years. Weren’t these abortions suppossed to free her up, so she could attend school? If so, she never did. Weren’t they suppossed to help her to have a better life? Yes, abortion solved it all! She’s just thriving!
Heather, of course there are no guarantees in life about such things, as with your friend, regardless of whether she had any abortions or not. There are plenty of sad stories of women who don’t have abortions. Plenty of sad stories about men, for that matter.
The flipside of your story is all the women who have indeed thrived after having abortions. Anecdotal stuff means very little in the overall argument, and in no way is it a good reason to take away the freedom that women have in the matter.
Doug
Doug, here is another abortion story. I know a woman who aborted 7 times. She has 1 living child. After her 7th abortion, she began to experience complications. A hysterectomy was her only option, as the hospital doctors told her that her uterus was severly damaged from the repeat abortions. Here was another woman who was hitting the bottle daily, using cocaine, and sleeping around. After her hysterectomy, she became deeply depressed and attempted suicide. She has severe bonding issues with her child, and her parents had to take custody. Someone showed me a recent picture of her. I didn’t even believe it was her. She is a bloated mess. She used to be a stunning looking woman. Her looks are totally gone! I don’t talk to her anymore, but I know people who do, and they tell me that she is in a living hell. Did the abortions contribute? I’m quite sure they did.
Doug, I know what you mean about no guarentees, but I can guarentee you of one thing. Abortion screws women up. They are killing their unborn child, and you can’t be much more wrong than that. It rips out a woman’s heart, it destroys her soul, and it kills a part of her forever. I’ve seen so many post abortive women deteriorate and self destruct. Drugs, drinking, sleeping around, and suicide attempts. It will all kill you in the long run. Abortion is bad medicine.
“The flipside of your story is all the women who have indeed thrived after having abortions.”
Really Doug? who? do you know some?
Nice photography Babe!
You forgot to mention that 1/2 the picketer there were union cops protesting their contract.
For the REAL story – and an accurate photo gallery – check this out:
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/news/596202,2_1_AU10_RALLIES_S1.article
Another story, My ex best friend aborted twice. She started smoking crack after her second abortion. I didn’t even know her anymore. I’d find her on her hand and knees, on the floor, combing through her carpet for more crack. She also slept around with just about anybody. I watched her go to pot.
Anecdotal stuff means very little in the overall argument, and in no way is it a good reason to take away the freedom that women have in the matter.
I agree. For every anecdote, there is an equal and opposite anecdote. For everyone homeless post-abortive women, you might could find me a CEO. But I think studies indicating how women who abort (in general) suffer suicides, drug abuse, alcholism, eating disorders, abusive relationships, etc. than women who don’t show that abortion is a factor in self-destructive behavior. Furthermore, women dying or thriving is irrelevant to whether it should be legal to kill one’s own child. I might could thrive by killing my personal competition- it shouldn’t be a legal “freedom” that I as a woman have in the matter.
P.S. Hey, Heather!
Heather, if you want I can re-post the drunk, insane meltdown you had less than two weeks ago. You made it pretty clear yesterday that you don’t even remember it.
Clean up your own backyard first.
Jacque, right.
Union cops, pro-lifers.
Weisners just pissing everybody off, isn’t he?
If he were smart he would submit to us. The cops might grown weary and back back, but we’re relentless.
Jacque, right again!
Some funny videos to lighten your day
More
whoops
Here you go
Comedy Central again
Heather wrote: “My friend is 54 years old, and she had 2 abortions when she was in her 20’s. Now she lives in a tiny apartment, and makes minimum wage working at a drugstore. She’s gone from one dysfunctional relationship to another. She’s been physically abused by boyfriends, and she was a raging alcoholic for most of her life. I’m happy to say that she’s been sober for 2 years. Weren’t these abortions suppossed to free her up, so she could attend school? If so, she never did. Weren’t they suppossed to help her to have a better life? Yes, abortion solved it all! She’s just thriving!”
Sounds like she’d make a great mom, if she had been forced to grow her pregnancies and give birth to babies she didn’t want.
Heather wrote: “My friend is 54 years old, and she had 2 abortions when she was in her 20’s. Now she lives in a tiny apartment, and makes minimum wage working at a drugstore. She’s gone from one dysfunctional relationship to another. She’s been physically abused by boyfriends, and she was a raging alcoholic for most of her life. I’m happy to say that she’s been sober for 2 years. Weren’t these abortions suppossed to free her up, so she could attend school? If so, she never did. Weren’t they suppossed to help her to have a better life? Yes, abortion solved it all! She’s just thriving!”
Sounds like she’d make a great mom, if she had been forced to grow her pregnancies and give birth to babies she didn’t want.
My friend is 54 years old, and she had 2 abortions when she was in her 20’s. Now she lives in a tiny apartment, and makes minimum wage working at a drugstore. She’s gone from one dysfunctional relationship to another. She’s been physically abused by boyfriends, and she was a raging alcoholic for most of her life.
Thank God your friend had the sense not to try to raise kids in that condition.
Sounds like she’d make a great mom, if she had been forced to grow her pregnancies and give birth to babies she didn’t want.
No one is forced into parenthood. There are 10 million couples that would love the chance to parent her babies, had she birthed and not dismembered them.
Thank God your friend had the sense not to try to raise kids in that condition.
She could have not raised them in that condition without killing them. Is adoption a foreign concept to pro-choicers?
Thank you PIP LOL!
Actually, my point was this: How does anyone know that she would have turned out to be this way, had she not aborted. Father #2 is an extremly wealthy man today. Her life really might have been different. As some of the PLers have mentioned, adoption would have been a great option.
Thanks :)
I found last nights shows especially hilarious, first of all b/c I LOVE back in black, and colbert talking about nipple rings, and colbert talking to himself– just hilarious
Also, I loved actress Patricia Heaton’s comeback on te PC crew who signed the Ms. Magazine petition “WE HAD ABORTIONS” One girl quiped “I had an abortion, so I would have something meaningful to do with my time.” Patricia Heaton replied “Raising children IS giving women something meaningful to do with their time.”
PIP, I haven’t seen those new Doritos yet. They sure do look good.
Anecdotal stuff means very little in the overall argument, and in no way is it a good reason to take away the freedom that women have in the matter.
That is unless it’s pro-choice activists using ancedotal stories to support their political cause, such as stories about bad ol’ CPCs or back-alley abortions. Ah, the hypocricy.
Rachael
http://rsnider.livejournal.com
I haven’t either. I’ll be sure to try them, though.
BTW, I’m without internet at home, so I’ll be checking in periodically and commenting time to time from the local library. I really do wish I had more time to chat!
Sincerely,
Rachael
http://rsnider.livejournal.com
Hi there Rachael!
Doug,
You wrote
Hippie, how many pregnancies have there been before the age of 15? Quite a lot…
————–
I’m sure it is less than 45 or 50 million.
“Also, I loved actress Patricia Heaton’s comeback on te PC crew who signed the Ms. Magazine petition “WE HAD ABORTIONS” One girl quiped “I had an abortion, so I would have something meaningful to do with my time.” Patricia Heaton replied “Raising children IS giving women something meaningful to do with their time.”
Thanks Heather…I like Patricia Heaton, her type is hard to find in hollywood.
I have been reading this blog for sometime without posting but I had to post regarding this issue.
Prolifers have to abide by the law, so should proaborts! But it looks like the fix was in. The mayor has got his payoff (speculation)and does not care about the will of the people.
As much as I hate to say/think it, PP will have their building. I will pray for the cause of the prolifers in Aurora and hope that justice will prevail.
AB
Maybe I missed it; but Jill I’m shocked you have wrote nothing about the latest Sarah Silverman Program.
You forgot to mention that 1/2 the picketer there were union cops protesting their contract.
For the REAL story – and an accurate photo gallery – check this out:
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/news/596202,2_1_AU10_RALLIES_S1.article
Posted by: Laura at October 10, 2007 10:50 AM
Laura, I grew up in Aurora and had a paper route delivering the “Be confused” (Beacon News) when I was in 6th grade. They were calling the paper that way back when and they definately EARNED the name. They couldn’t get anything straight, then or now.
“Maybe I missed it; but Jill I’m shocked you have wrote nothing about the latest Sarah Silverman Program.”
Yes, Jill did BIAB, look in the archives…
Again, tell me how abortion is the “cure all.” My friend is 54 years old, and she had 2 abortions when she was in her 20’s. Now she lives in a tiny apartment, and makes minimum wage working at a drugstore. She’s gone from one dysfunctional relationship to another. She’s been physically abused by boyfriends, and she was a raging alcoholic for most of her life. I’m happy to say that she’s been sober for 2 years. Weren’t these abortions suppossed to free her up, so she could attend school? If so, she never did. Weren’t they suppossed to help her to have a better life? Yes, abortion solved it all! She’s just thriving!
Posted by: heather at October 10, 2007 8:55 AM
……………………………….
So she would have been better off with two children while a raging alcoholic and going from one dysfunctional realtionship to another? What a charming childhood they might have had. Who told you that having an abortion magically gives a woman the motivation and drive to further their education?
A woman I know had two abortions during her college years so she could finish her education. After she graduated, she was depressed, worked part time for low wages until my friend gave her a job as a favor to me. She got pregnant again, but finally a decent guy who married her. She now has three kids, and her career is as a stay home mom. I don’t think she was ever interested in a career. Her parents wanted her to finish college. Abortion did not improve her life or help her get a career. She chose to be a mom with no career outside of her family. It is society pushing its priorities on her that pressured her stay in school and into having abortions.
Posted by: hippie at October 10, 2007 9:42 AM
………………………………………
I know a woman that had 2 abortions during her early college years. After graduation she went to work, paid off her loans and saved enough money to spend the summer in Europe before going back to school for her masters. She is happily married and will start a family when the time is right for them both.
Your aquaintance obviously was attending school for the wrong reasons and is apparently living the life that she desires. I’m sure that she would be greatfull for whatever education she attained if the breadwinner should take a hike, die or become disabled and she finds herself with a family to support.
Doug, I know what you mean about no guarentees, but I can guarentee you of one thing. Abortion screws women up. They are killing their unborn child, and you can’t be much more wrong than that. It rips out a woman’s heart, it destroys her soul, and it kills a part of her forever. I’ve seen so many post abortive women deteriorate and self destruct. Drugs, drinking, sleeping around, and suicide attempts. It will all kill you in the long run. Abortion is bad medicine.
Posted by: heather at October 10, 2007 10:25 AM
………………………………….
Oh the drama!
If we [pro-lifers] were to roll over and die everytime we faced a setback, there wouldn’t be 89 cities in 33 states praying, fasting and vigiling outside of Planned Parenthood AS WE SPEAK.
We never give up. This is FAR from a “done deal.” Even if Planned Parenthood remains open at that location, they’ll be seeing our pretty faces every. single. day.
Posted by: Jacqueline at October 10, 2007 9:52 AM
……………………………..
Figures. Leave the starving, abused, dying…..to everyone else. Way to contribute to society!
Sally, hello. I’m going to put our differenses aside and ask, “How are you?” You had posted in another thread about being abused and suffering from PTSD. If you ever care to talk, I’m sure plenty of us here are willing to listen.
Another story, My ex best friend aborted twice. She started smoking crack after her second abortion. I didn’t even know her anymore. I’d find her on her hand and knees, on the floor, combing through her carpet for more crack. She also slept around with just about anybody. I watched her go to pot.
Posted by: heather at October 10, 2007 10:52 AM
………………………………..
My ex best buddie started smoking crack after her third birth. No abortions. When she started going to bars and prostituting herself the parking lots, I simply couldn’t watch anymore. Obviously gestation leads to ‘moral decay’. @@
Maybe, but they decided to have an abortion.
Which is a couple hundred (minimum) more expensive than an adoption plan (which costs nothing and also provides financial assistance).
So I guess your argument on college girls being too poor to choose life doesn’t hold much water, eh?
Posted by: Jacqueline at October 10, 2007 9:55 AM
……………………………….
Perhaps the concept of gestating for monetary profit is abhorant to college girls.
ctually, my point was this: How does anyone know that she would have turned out to be this way, had she not aborted. Father #2 is an extremly wealthy man today. Her life really might have been different. As some of the PLers have mentioned, adoption would have been a great option.
Posted by: heather at October 10, 2007 11:45 AM
………………………
Ummm OK. So if she hadn’t aborted and produced a baby, the father would have married her, treated her well and they would have lived happily ever after?
I would abort before ever intentionally gestating a child who’s first experience of life would be rejection. How incredibly irresponsible! Small wonder that the country is in such shape with folks like you that see children as commodities.
Sally, hello. I’m going to put our differenses aside and ask, “How are you?” You had posted in another thread about being abused and suffering from PTSD. If you ever care to talk, I’m sure plenty of us here are willing to listen.
Posted by: heather at October 10, 2007 8:40 PM
………………………………..
Feel free to ask anything you like. I have no secrets. I find discussion like most on this board are capable of, to be great therapy. I find most PL to be not any different than me. Our experiences of life have obviously been quite different. But I digress.
I’m better and better every day. Watching that poor woman fall out of the hot air balloon on Monday reminded me of other traumatic accidents that I have witnessed. It hasn’t seemed to have triggered the kind of unexplainable and unpredictable anxiety attacks that PTSD can cause. A huge stride for me.
So what are you interested in? PTSD and my experience of the disorder. How I was ‘lucky’ enough to have intimate knowledge of it? How I believe that I aquired it? Ask away.
“Also, I loved actress Patricia Heaton’s comeback on te PC crew who signed the Ms. Magazine petition “WE HAD ABORTIONS” One girl quiped “I had an abortion, so I would have something meaningful to do with my time.” Patricia Heaton replied “Raising children IS giving women something meaningful to do with their time.”
Thanks Heather…I like Patricia Heaton, her type is hard to find in hollywood.
Posted by: jasper at October 10, 2007 1:10 PM
………………………………………………
My children were something usefull to do on a daily basis before they got their own lives. Now I just kinda flounder around looking to reparent myself into the way that I parented them. They live the lives that I might have had if I had been parented the way that I parented them. No regrets. But I’m the old chick most likely to be a drain on your tax dollar. Working with no health insurance and no retirement.
And Jasper? Do you hang around Hollywood catagorizing people into types?
You know what I mean Sally…
Sally, our life experiences might be closer than you think. If you feel like sharing, please do.
Sally, our life experiences might be closer than you think. If you feel like sharing, please do.
Posted by: Carrie at October 10, 2007 9:30 PM
……………………….
Honey I have been sharing. I always do. If you’re looking to rack up green stamps for jesus through me, you will find yourself dissapointed. If you ever feel like asking an honest and intelligent question, please do. I’m an old chick. I actually knew people born in the late 1800’s.
I can guarentee you of one thing. Abortion screws women up.
Heather, there you are just plain wrong. Some women do have regrets, sure, the same that some women do that continue pregnancies and give birth. It’s gonna happen. But to make such an unqualified statement as you did is simply incorrect.
Doug
“Hippie, how many pregnancies have there been before the age of 15? Quite a lot…”
Hippie: I’m sure it is less than 45 or 50 million.
@@ Not what we were talking about. “Too young” is too young.
Doug
Sally, as I have said before, we will listen if you care to talk about it.
“Anecdotal stuff means very little in the overall argument, and in no way is it a good reason to take away the freedom that women have in the matter.”
Rachel: That is unless it’s pro-choice activists using ancedotal stories to support their political cause, such as stories about bad ol’ CPCs or back-alley abortions. Ah, the hypocricy.
Well, there ARE bad CPC’s. http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/fake.htm
But that is not pretending that all CPC’s are “bad.” And of course there were back-alley abortions due to abortion being illegal. The point is that a given woman’s experience or take on the matter in no way necessarily means anything to women in general.
Doug
Women describe being harassed, intimidated, and given blatantly false information, or being forced to pray with the crisis pregnancy center’s staff. They complain that their confidential information was used against them. In some cases, they were followed home, and mail and phone calls intruded into their homes.
I don’t buy it. Who wrote this? NOW or NARAL?
Hal: Too poor to raise a child, not interested in having one just to give it up for adoption. Might not be your choice, but it was theirs.
Good grief, of course, no doubt, etc. They or she may not have wanted to continue the pregnancy to delivery. That’s about it.
If there are people wanting to adopt, they didn’t “owe” those people anything, and there are already 150,000 or more kids waiting for adoption in the US, alone.
Doug
I actually knew people born in the late 1800’s.
Sally, my great-grandmother was born in 1878, and lived until 1976. Her son, my grandpa, made it from 1903 to 2003. My grandma is still going strong, and will be 96 next month. That’s my dad’s side.
My mom’s mom was born in 1910, and had a tough time in the 1930s and 1940s, leaving an abusive alcoholic, back when women didn’t do that, much. My mom, one of three little girls at the time, well remembers the 1940s, 50s and 60s. Do women have it better now? Yes, no question about it.
Doug
Hello Doug *waves*
Sally, I am not looking to “rack up green stamps for Jesus”. I do believe in God, but I don’t go to church and I don’t follow any particular religion. I don’t feel comfortable going into personal circumstances at this point, but I offered because I have gone through similiar things, that I can tell. I was being sincere,not looking for bonus points from God.
Hello Heather and Doug *waves*
I want to comment on some things, but don’t have time to today, as my cell phone battery died in mid-conversation with my mother-in-law (I really need to get a car charger :-P ) and I need to get home so I can call her back on my husband’s phone as soon as he gets off work (here in about 5 minutes)
Rachael
http://rsnider.livejournal.com
But that is not pretending that all CPC’s are “bad.” And of course there were back-alley abortions due to abortion being illegal. The point is that a given woman’s experience or take on the matter in no way necessarily means anything to women in general.
But you’re changing the point here Doug, which is the double standard of that it not ok for pro-lifers to use ancedotal stories or graphic images for that matter, but it’s ok for pro-choices to use heresay and ancedotal stories (or graphic images), undesputed? And you’re right, going with the last line of thinking, one can’t make a positive or negative judgement call on how a woman’s emotionally/physically outcome will be with either adoption or abortion before-hand, because every women’s experience is unique and difference, am I right?
Good grief, of course, no doubt, etc. They or she may not have wanted to continue the pregnancy to delivery. That’s about it.
It’s a selfish mentallity of, “If I can’t have this child, then no one can!” However, stigma, myths, and the past history surrounding adoption has made considering adoption much more difficult for pregnant women I think.
Adoption is more than handing one’s child away to a complete stranger at birth, in most cases, mothers who places their child for adoption loves her child but is unable to care for the child and wants the best for her child and for the child to be cared for. Despite the myths, the child is not less loved or wanted, abandoned, or unloveable, and she is no less of a mother, but rather it was an act of love and sacrifice by the mother.
In today’s society, the birth parent(s) are involved in choosig the parents, given appropriate counseling, a home study and thorough evaluation of perspective parents are done, and the birthmother may choose to keep in touch with her child by letters, phone calls, visits, etc.
“But that is not pretending that all CPC’s are “bad.” And of course there were back-alley abortions due to abortion being illegal. The point is that a given woman’s experience or take on the matter in no way necessarily means anything to women in general.”
Rachel: But you’re changing the point here Doug, which is the double standard of that it not ok for pro-lifers to use ancedotal stories or graphic images for that matter, but it’s ok for pro-choices to use heresay and ancedotal stories (or graphic images), undesputed? And you’re right, going with the last line of thinking, one can’t make a positive or negative judgement call on how a woman’s emotionally/physically outcome will be with either adoption or abortion before-hand, because every women’s experience is unique and difference, am I right?
Rachel – agreed – and I’m not saying that anecdotes prove anything for the Pro-Choice side, unless it’s the falseness of claims from Pro-Lifers like “abortion messes up all women who have them” – stuff like that.
……
“Good grief, of course, no doubt, etc. They or she may not have wanted to continue the pregnancy to delivery. That’s about it.”
It’s a selfish mentallity of, “If I can’t have this child, then no one can!” However, stigma, myths, and the past history surrounding adoption has made considering adoption much more difficult for pregnant women I think.
I don’t know how much “stigma” there is, but it’s mainly just not wanting to be pregnant. The woman doesn’t “owe” anybody else a baby. Of course it’s selfish, the same as continuing a pregnancy would be. The motivation is coming from the self. If a woman wants to have 30 kids, it’s what she wants. Short of being physically compelled otherwise, we make our choices from among our available options on the basis of how much we want them, or how little distaste we have for them.
……
Adoption is more than handing one’s child away to a complete stranger at birth, in most cases, mothers who places their child for adoption loves her child but is unable to care for the child and wants the best for her child and for the child to be cared for. Despite the myths, the child is not less loved or wanted, abandoned, or unloveable, and she is no less of a mother, but rather it was an act of love and sacrifice by the mother.
In today’s society, the birth parent(s) are involved in choosig the parents, given appropriate counseling, a home study and thorough evaluation of perspective parents are done, and the birthmother may choose to keep in touch with her child by letters, phone calls, visits, etc.
I don’t have a problem with adoption, but it’s no reason to force a woman to remain pregnant. Heck, there are 150,000+ kids waiting for adoption now.
Doug