Outcome of FRC Washington Briefing
Yesterday I attended a private meeting of conservative leaders during the FRC Washington Briefing, a Salt Lake City II if you will, to discuss dilemmas we face with the 2008 presidential candidates.
Instructions were given not to speak to the media, and since I am the media, I took that to obviously mean details discussed and who said what were off-the-record and, of course, I’ll honor that.
There are two dilemmas….
1. Which Republican primary candidate should pro-lifers rally behind?
2. What if Rudy Giuliani ends up that nominee?
Re: #1, the FRC straw poll had confusing results, as I previously discussed here. CBS correctly detailed the confusion:
The results of the event’s straw poll were especially telling: Of the 5,775 votes received at on-site voting kiosks, by mail, and online, Romney won 1,595, while Huckabee was only 30 votes behind, at 1,565.
But these baseline numbers don’t tell the entire story. Voting online required only a nominal donation to the Family Research Council…. Candidates sent out appeals to their supporters to cast an online vote in the poll — such votes turned out to generate about 94% of Romney’s support.
Among people who actually paid to attend the conference, people FRC President Tony Perkins has called “influencers” within their communities and church congregations, the result was far different, and a decisive victory for Huckabee. Over 51% of those who voted at the conference chose the former Arkansas governor. Romney was a distant second, garnering just over 10% of the vote.
But even that was not the whole story, as RedState.com added:
600 attendees actually voted online…. so the 952 votes is misleading. I’m not saying Romney won… but the seeming on-site rout for Huckabee needs a little context.
Nevertheless, Huckabee came in #1 or #2 on either poll. Thanks to that, Huckabee “will get a significant bounce” FRC head Tony Perkins told CBS. How high? “He could be a first-tier candidate,” said Perkins.
The sole hold-up with Huckabee’s ascension to Tier One is money. If he had it, no doubt he’d qualify. Gary Bauer told CBS:
He said Huckabee, who raised only $1 million in the third quarter of the year, doesn'[t have the time or resources to compete with the top GOP candidates.
“I’m skeptical, I am,” Bauer said. “I just don’t see how you go from having $600,000 in the bank one year before the election and go on to leap-frog everybody else, beat Giuliani and then go on to beat Hillary Clinton. I just don’t see it happening.”
Here’s a word picture of Huckabee’s $ problem, courtesy of RedState.com (click to enlarge):
![]()
My friend Janet Folger, Huckabee’s strongest supporter among pro-life leaders, dismissed that, recalling his surprise second place finish to Romney in the Iowa’s straw poll, despite spending no money on advertising.
The fact is, s/he who has the most money almost always wins. Almost. I won’t make a blanket statement, but that’s the reality. I hesitate to use the word naive to describe those not incorporating that into the mix. I’d love this paragraph to come back and bite me.
Back to the FRC Briefing, the private meeting, and the dilemmas:
Most in the private meeting supported Huckabee. A few important figures supported Hunter. For many well thought out and researched reasons, 3rd party chatter was put to rest. I don’t think Romney can surmount the Mormon and flip-flop obstacles among pro-life leaders, at least in the primary. Giuliani is still anathema to everyone, despite his attempt to reach out by speaking at the Briefing.
This brings up the final point, a very real gut-wrencher to all, including me. If Giuliani wins the primary, and pro-lifers are faced with voting for Hillary or him, what will they do?
Dobson said at the gala he pledged at the 1988 March for Life never to vote for a pro-abortion candidate again, and he is sticking to that. He would not vote for Giuliani, even in a match-up with Hillary.
Because of that, Dobson has received much hate mail during the last three weeks, he said, up to the point of withdrawing financial support from Focus on the Family. Perkins had the same answer for Wolf Blitzer of CNN Saturday. Click on image for link to video:

What makes this so awful is knowing that not voting for Giuliani will hand Hillary the election, and she is honestly a pro-life satan. Under her watch the Freedom of Choice Act would likely advance to law, undoing every pro-life state law passed since 1973. She would appoint 2-4 50-year-old Ruth Bader Ginsbergs to the Supreme Court, lurching it left for the next 20-30 years. This would also be devastating, not just to the pro-life issue but to the gay marriage issue, property rights, etc.
The magnitude of this election is almost overwhelming. Which reminds me. It’s time to get ready for church.



Does anyone know if Giuliani supports the FOCA?
Carrie, he said yesterday he was not a pro-abortion activist. I don’t think so. But I haven’t read anything affirming that.
Thanks, Jill.
Article about Huckabee from the NY times
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/opinion/19brooks.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
I can’t say I understand the Mormon issue. As a Catholic, I routinely vote for non-Catholics for political office as long as they’re pro-life. What difference does it make? If Romney can convince me that he’s pro-life, I’ll vote for him, too. I don’t really care what his theology about the Holy Trinity is because I’d be voting for him for President, not for Pope.
Hitler was elected because people thought Nazism,in a contest with communism, was the lesser of two evils.
Re: the quote of the day: Yes, those students need protection…from sexual predators, including the pill pushers. They sure won’t get it from the likes of Hitlary.
jt, would you prefer 7th grade drop outs? Because that certainly happens. It can happen anywhere to a child of any age who has hit puberty. And the reality is, they do have sex.
though I do agree I don’t think the pill is a good option at that age, stick with condoms.
Of course, you’re all watching the debate?
I turned to FAUX news and thought my TV started to smoke. Fortunately, it was just California burning down again…
Running commentary welcome – especially snarkasm.
Can you name the candidate who said this?
“Life begins at conception but it doesn’t end at birth. And if we’re really pro-life we have to be concerned about more than just the gestation period. . . . the environmental quality that would affect a child’s air and water; that he had a better education, & better access to affordable health care. So I think that real pro-life people need to be concerned about affordable housing, safe neighborhoods, access to a college education. That, for me, is what pro-life has to mean.”
Source: Meet the Press: Meet the Candidates 2008 series Jan 28, 2007
Huckabee
Dear Jill,
I am an 18-year-old Christian young man. I’ll be voting in my first presidential election next year. I am writing with thoughts on the article you wrote in the Illinois Review about the presidential candidates.
For me, my mind is made up. The man our country needs is Mike Huckabee. He has a stellar record of actual accomplishment on all the issues that the pro-life community holds dear. He does not come to us to ask for our vote, he comes from us. But you know this. The other leaders of the evangelical wing of the party know this. The question is only, can he win?
He can win. The reasons are simple. We need a candidate who can unite the country, not polarize it. We need a candidate who can beat Hillary in a debate, rally the Republican base with an unassailable record on social issues, and challenge her on her own territory of health care and education
Good man Alex!
Have you guys been watching the debate?
Even Republicans – fresh off the Values Voter Summit – spent about two minutes on social issues and moved on.
Iraq, Social Security, the economy, trade, immigration, education, health care and the environment are crises that have pushed social issues off the table.
Dan,
Did you cheat?
I don’t get fox news. Tell me what happens.
Ron Paul is making so much sense – it’s kinda scary…
Where DID all of the fiscally responsible, small-government nationalist Republicans go?
Ron Paul scares me. He wants to reinstate the Monroe Doctrine… i mean, it didnt work 100 years ago, why would it be better now?
And he doesnt seem to grasp the difference between “small government” and “mob rule”. If everything is decided by the people, bad things happen. Look at the Death of Socrates. Killed for asking questions because a majority of religious people hated him. The same could hold true for a state if Ron Paul had his way. Freedom of Religion is a Constitutional Right, but what about things NOT mentioned in the constitution? such as Language. How long before Arabic is outlawed in the Bible Belt?
Mob Rule is NOT a good political System. and neither is Laisse Faire capitalism, just look at France.
No, I figured it had to be him since that was the topic of discussion.
Simply it was a lucky guess, lol
Huckabee won this debate. It’s very clear. I’d gladly vote for him… now if the rest of the conservatives would get on board, we’d be getting somewhere.
Laura, it takes less than two minutes to say “I am against killing children.” Positions on economics, foreign policy, etc take longer to articulate.
A study from THE LANCET, reported on by Katha Pollitt:
“Now comes an article in The Lancet that shows in cold hard data how right we’ve been all along. “Induced Abortion: Estimated Rates and Trends Worldwide,” a study conducted by the World Health Organization and the Guttmacher Institute, is the first global analysis of abortion incidence since 1995. It finds that rates of abortion (the number of abortions per 1,000 women) are relatively unaffected by whether it is legal. Thus, in South America, where abortion is largely illegal, the rate is 33; in northern America, where it is legal, the rate is 21. “The legal status of abortion doesn’t predict whether abortions occur,” study co-author Gilda Sedgh told me by phone. “It predicts whether they are safe.”
See http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/pollitt
Read the whole thing. It tells how some countries reduced their abortion rates substantially.
Here’s the Lancet article:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS014067360761575X/fulltext
No authentic pro-lifer is going to support legalized abortion. To do so is to concede that it’s morally acceptable for a woman to have her pre-born child killed.
There is no moral right to abortion, nor should the state tolerate it.
Well apparently the Bush Administration loves, loves, LOVES abortion, or this chick wouldn’t have been appointed last week:
Birth Control Foe To Head Family Planning
Bush Pick For Contraceptive Program Called Birth Control Part Of “Culture Of Death”
Comments 17
WASHINGTON, Oct. 18, 2007
——————————————————————————–
Dr. Susan Orr, who has advocated for abstinence over making contraceptives more available, was named by President Bush to head his government’s family planning program. (Dept. of Health and Human Services)
(CBS) Family planning advocates denounced President Bush
Instructions were given not to speak to the media, and since I am the media, I took that to obviously mean details discussed and who said what were off-the-record and, of course, I’ll honor that.
……………………
You are the media? A bit grandeous and quite dishonest Jill. You aren’t in any danger of the BBC offering you a post in Irag. You couldn’t get a job reporting hog ventures in Iowa.
Since you RTLs like gore pictures, check this out:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673606694816/image?id=fig4&locator=gr4
Somg, no. Sorry. That’s a fake picture.
A fake picture published as a figure in The Lancet? I don’t think so.
Oh come on. Our pictures are fake, right? Nah, it’s a fake. Probably fished it off of Rotten.com. I’ll bet the old Gerri Santoro picture is also a fake.
SoMG,
Just goes to show you that sticking knitting needles in your clown car is probably not the wisest of moves. Certainly doesn’t show that abortion, legal or otherwise is a good thing.
A fake picture published as a figure in The Lancet? I don’t think so.
Posted by: SoMG at October 22, 2007 5:15 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SoMG, what are the chances that Heather has ever HEARD of The Lancet?
We’re talking about the same person who thought that the Marquis de Sade was the chick who sang “Sweetest Taboo.” (I’m not kidding…)
Earth to Heather: Look at the URL–it’s a figure in The Lancet. (The one I pointed to, not Gerri Santoro.) The Lancet does not publish fake figures.
MG, it shows one of the dangers of illegal abortion.
Go read the articles I posted above. Making abortion illegal does not prevent abortions. When South Africa legalized abortion in 1997, they did not experience a rise in the number of abortions but they did experience a very large drop in the complications from abortion.
Sorry, that should be addressed to MK, not MG.
But of course, you WANT abortion to be dangerous, don’t you?
I agree with MK. Laura, you just can’t let anything go. I thought you spent some time with that wonderful b/f of yours. @@ Is he ever going to marry you, or are you happy being used for sex? BTW, despite what some may have told you, you aren’t funny at all. I don’t get your humor. Moving on. Somg is just a clown with an over active imagination. He’s probably 14 years old.
Let’s show that dumb picture to women once abortion is legal. Perhaps they will think twice before they stick a foreign object into their “clown cars.” This lady wasn’t very smart. Kind of like Laura.
Somg, what did this woman use to perform this “abortion?” What? Can you please elaborate? Did you expect me to fall out of my chair? I clicked on the piccy and went “oh puleezzzee” and clicked off. These pics are a dime a dozen on rotten.com.
Okay, I clicked on “The Lancet.” What’s your point?
*oops, meant illegal* [[above post]]
Hi Heather. I think SoMG is saying that women aren’t smart enough to know that it is dangerous to stick a crochet hook into their “clown car”. I guess he thinks we need to protect them from themselves.
But of course, you WANT abortion to be dangerous, don’t you?
No, silly. We want them to be extinct.
Hi there Carrie and Bethany. I hope you guys are doing okay!! *waves*
Heather, I am really enjoying the gorgeous fall foliage. I think we are at our peak color this week.
Carrie, it’s nice here too. The sun is already coming up.
See you all later. I have 2 appointments this morning.
SoMG, that picture’s quite good for showing how unnatural and perverse abortion is, and why nobody should ever resort to it. Do you think that makes me think abortion should be legal? No, it makes me think abortion should be history.
Laura, more contraception in society = more abortions. At least, that’s usually how it turns out.
“Is he ever going to marry you, or are you happy being used for sex?”
That’s the choice? You’re revealing your attitudes about sex again. “being used?” give me a break. Getting married is not every woman’s goal, and some women, I’m quite sure, enjoy sex just enough that they don’t feel they’re “being used” when they enjoy a little.
Good morning, Heather!
“What makes this so awful is knowing that not voting for Giuliani will hand Hillary the election, and she is honestly a pro-life satan. Under her watch the Freedom of Choice Act would likely advance to law, undoing every pro-life state law passed since 1973.”
this woman could really do some damage. Shes very dangerous. She has ice water running through her veins. look-out unborn babies, she coming for you with the forceps, ready to kill.
Jasper, I agree. Slick Hilly as president is a very frightening thought.
Somg,
Didn’t we have a lengthy discussion on another thread where you said you can’t monitor an illegal activity such as illegal abortion?
Somg wrote:
“No one knows how many women died from illegal abortion before Roe/Wade.
It was illegal, so it couldn’t be monitored.”
Posted by: SoMG at October 19, 2007 1:49 PM
“You can’t monitor the results of an illegal activity, unless the activity is easily detectable by objective means (such as needle marks on a drug-user’s arm).”
Posted by: SoMG at October 20, 2007 3:23 PM
“The fact is you cannot monitor deaths from illegal activities unless the illegal activities leave unmistakable signs. You just can’t know. You never will. The only true answer is “We don’t know”! You just have to live with that.
It is well known that not all abortion-related deaths were reported as such, to the CDC or anyone else.”
Posted by: SoMG at October 20, 2007 3:38 PM
If you can’t tell that someone died of an abortion, how can you tell when they just go home?
Why do you think that the WHO and Gutmacher can measure what you claim is the unmeasurable?
that anon was me.
Jill, I as a Catholic Christian am required to minimize evil in our society and country. If we wait for saints to vote for, we will never vote. We are all fallen humans, however Giuliani is probably the “fallenest” human I’ve had to contemplate for president.
If it’s Rudy and Hillary, I’ll be able, in good conscience, to hold my nose and pull Rudy’s lever. This is because with two pro-choice candidates, I can go down the list and see which one is the worst and vote against him or her.
However, if there is a righteous pro-life candidate on the ballot, even if Hillary would win, I can’t in good conscience vote for Rudy.
By placing a third party nominee on the ballot, Dr. Dobson would guarantee I could not support Giuliani for president.
I will fight Giuliani with every fiber in my being until he is defeated or becomes the candidate. Then I will decide independently how to minimize evil in the voting booth.
SoMG said:
Thus, in South America, where abortion is largely illegal, the rate is 33; in northern America, where it is legal, the rate is 21. “The legal status of abortion doesn’t predict whether abortions occur,” study co-author Gilda Sedgh told me by phone. “It predicts whether they are safe.”
So considering that we have 100M women in the United States, and if abortion were illegal we would save 12 children per 1000 women, this means that if abortion were illegal, we’d save 1.2M babies per year.
Works for me.
Tony, I think you got it backwards, SMOG’s numbers indicate that making abortion illegal would actually increase the rate. Many other variables, of course. The main point: “The legal status of abortion doesn’t predict whether abortions occur,” study co-author Gilda Sedgh told me by phone. “It predicts whether they are safe.”
Jasper: “this woman could really do some damage. Shes very dangerous.”
Define “dangerous.” what do you think she’d do that would be harmful (or even different than GWB?)
I checked out the article Somg posted from the Nation.
There was a link at the bottom to a pro abortion site about coping with abortion.
http://www.lifescript.com/channels/well_being/Meditations_Motivations/coping_with_abortion_youre_not_alone.asp?trans=1&gclid=CIyjs-bfoo8CFSCTWAodNCr7ew
Here are some lines from the article:
” I had a friend who had the decision of abortion to make. At the time, she was engaged to be married within six months of finding out she was pregnant. ”
“When she told her fianc
After viewing the Tony Perkins CNN interview, I am wondering if the FRC will appeal to other pro-life camps. Will FRC ask Catholics, Orthodox Jewish people, & Muslims to vote for a pro-life candidate? Won’t other voters in addition to “Evangelical” voters rally around such a candidate?
“Define “dangerous.” what do you think she’d do that would be harmful (or even different than GWB?)”
She would push and sign the “Freedom of Choice” act which would make abortion legal all 9 months of pregnancy. This is a scary bill….
http://www.nrlc.org/FOCA/Article020404FOCA.html
she would also nominate judges in the mold of Ruth “badgirl” Ginsberg (former head of the ACLU)
don’t let Hillary fool you, she is a rapid communist…
SoMG –
I can’t find anywhere in the article (Of course i cannot get the full article without being a member) that says that the picture you posted is from a legal or illegal abortion. The article is discussing how “legal” abortions as well as “illegal” abortions can be dangerous. The terminology in that article is talking about “unsafe” not necessarily “illegal”. From the Summary of the article:
“Every year, about 19
don’t let Hillary fool you, she is a rapid communist…
Posted by: jasper at October 22, 2007 10:42 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GOOD! I hate them slow Commies!
this woman could really do some damage. Shes very dangerous. She has ice water running through her veins. look-out unborn babies, she coming for you with the forceps, ready to kill.
Posted by: jasper at October 22, 2007 8:48 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another episode of “Drama Queen Theatre!”
(hits dramatic chord)
Dun! DUN! DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!
SoMG,
I know what you were sayin’…doesn’t change that fact that knitting needles and naughty bits, don’t go together.
“Another episode of “Drama Queen Theatre!”
(hits dramatic chord)
Dun! DUN! DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!”
Have you seen any pictures of aborted babies Laura?
Laura,
don’t let Hillary fool you, she is a rapid communist…
Caught that did ya?
If you want the actual numbers from the report Somg posted.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/l-oif101007.php
of note legal abortions in Eastern Europe 105 per 100 births
vs Africa illegal abortions 12%
Since when is 50% the same as 12% ?
Have you seen any pictures of aborted babies Laura?
Posted by: jasper at October 22, 2007 1:11 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just the paparazzi photos.
jasper, if you read the law, abortions after viability are ONLY allowed in cases in which the health or life of the woman is threatened. The act of aborting prior to viability is already legal, as is the right to have the child. Essentially it just makes sure that no matter what the circumstance, if the mother’s health or life is at stake she can abort. It reenforces what the Supreme Court essentially already ruled on in Roe v Wade.
I can see where you would worry about the restrictions, and to be honest I do have some concerns, but only time would tell how successful this bill would be if enacted.
Hippie –
The title of the article he posted is:
“1 in 5 pregnancies worldwide and 1 in 3 in Europe ends in abortion”
That is 20% of all pregnancies end in abortion worldwide and 33.3% of pregnancies end in abortion in Europe. They also switch back and forth between comparing the number of abortions to live births and comparing the number of abortions to women of reproductive age and comparing the numbers of abortion to pregnancies. This is usually done to confuse the reader. A legitimate study (Take the CDC’s MMWR’s as an example) will give only the same comparison or give both comparisons for EVERY NUMBER OR STATISTIC GIVEN. But this article doesn’t do that.
This is how good the “spin” is in the abortion research. They do this so they can attempt to make the outcome the way they want it to be. Lets look at all the decrepencies:
“One in five pregnancies worldwide…ends in abortion. ”
Then they say this:
“Globally, there were 31 abortions for every 100 livebirths in 2003”
Isn’t Worldwide and Globally the same thing? How can it be that there are 20% ( 1 out of 5 pregnancies) AND 31% (31 for every 100 livebirths) at the same time! What is the difference between pregnancy and “livebirths”. Does that mean that spontaneous abortion is added with the induced? They were very quick to define what they mean by safe and unsafe, but nothing to define the difference between pregnancy, livebirths etc…
They also stuck this sentence in around 3/4 of the way down:
“In the developing world, changes in rates of abortion, and actual numbers of abortions, were dominated by developments in China – which accounts for a fifth of abortions worldwide, and where abortion rates dropped 20% between 1995 and 2003.”
So…. China is actually the reason for the worldwide decline and has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not. oh yea – China stopped reporting a good number of their (forced) abortions to the UN and WHO around the same time as California stopped reporting to our government….that was…you guessed it 1995.
I also love this one:
“They found that on average 90% of women worldwide will have an abortion before the age of 45 ”
Yet in the same article there is this:
“The worldwide induced abortion rate fell from 35 per 1000 women aged 15-44 in 1995 to 29 in 2003.”
Wait a minute here – how can the number be 90% of women will have abortions when only 3.5 % to 2.9% of women worldwide have abortions every year? (don’t you love how they keep going back and forth between 100 and 1,000 to compare their numbers to?) oh yea – then there is this:
“many women will have had multiple abortions and many none at all to come to this average. ”
HUH? so the 90% is based on women who have multiple abortions and women who have none. somehow, they come up to 90% of women of reproductive age to maybe not 90% of women of reproductive age.
I left the best for last. Stick with me here if ya can:
“the worldwide rates of induced abortion have fallen 17% between 1995 and 2003, and actual numbers of abortions have also fallen from 46 million to 42 million in the same period.”
Did ya catch it? Induced abortion have fallen 17% and the actual number of abortions fell 9%. WHAT? Could someone please tell me the difference betwwen “induced abortions” and “actual number of abortions”? Does that 42 million include spontaneous abortions as well?
Just for the fun of it:
“calculated worldwide and regional incidences of safe** abortions using reports from national reporting systems, nationally representative surveys, and published studies. Figures for unsafe abortion were estimated from hospital data, survey and other published studies. ”
Such a fair comparison don’t ya think? Neither one of these groups of statistics has anything to do with accuracy. In America alone there is a huge descrepency between anything that is published by the goverment and anything that is published by private research. Just compare the numbers from the CDC and Gutmatcher. Which one did this study take?
Dan,
Health includes virtually anything including psychological health.
For example, abortionists who do late abortions have a psychologist they refer the woman to who signs to say she needs the abortion for psychological health.
One such abortionist, Dr. Tiller has such an arrangement.
In all his years of practice no woman was ever denied.
The psychologist turned in the documents without even writing diagnoses and the state accepted them that way.
When the states attorney general tried to prosecute, Planned Parenthood ran adds against him because subpoenaed patient records.
Dan –
According to Amnesty Internations “grave risk of health to mother” includes if a woman will go blind if she gives birth. There very first example on their website gives the case of the woman in Poland who was denied an abortion because there was a chance she would loose her site.
Now, this is not an ideal situation, but it is NOT by any means “grave risk”. If it was, that would be an insult to all the blind mother’s in the world.
oops – please ignore the horrible spelling in my above post. I know I’m bad at that, but geesh! I think I should know the difference between site and sight!
;-)
Valerie, whatever you say about individual bad clinics and individual shut-down clinics, the fact remains that legal abortion is extremly safe with a maternal death rate less than one per hundred thousand procedures.
So Valerie, would you allow or prohibit an abortion if the mother’s sight depended on getting one?
Valerie,
I think PP says that in the US, 50% of women getting abortions have already had at least one. By those numbers 650,000 are “new” each year. If this trend has been around for about 30 years, (just speculating) then it is only possible for less than 15% of US women to have had an abortion. The number may be a little lower because some clients may say they have not had a previous abortion when in fact they have.
Anyway, I found a published correction to that article’s 90% figure here:
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1271999
Somg,
Have you seen morbidity rates? If so where?
SoMG –
Would you include the mothers sight as “grave risk” to her health? I don’t. The very definition of “grave” in this scenerio would be “likely to produce great harm or danger”. Loosing your sight, as I said isn’t ideal, is by no mean great harm or danger. Talk to any of the millions of blind mothers and they will tell you that they are very good at parenting. It is an insult to the blind to say otherwise. If it was just based on my decision – no, I wouldn’t allow an abortion for that. TRUE life and health of the mother as long as the baby isn’t viable I have no problem with abortion – which is in agreement with the Catholic teachings.
What is your point about the safety of abortion? In developing countries the safety of abortion vs childbirth is all the same. Less than 1% mortality rate for both. The fact is that the complications in abortion, although rare as it is in childbirth, have higher ramifications. Most complications in childbirth have more of a risk to the baby than the mother. And most complications can be found before serious harm is done. The complications for abortion (whether legal or not) are 1. incomplete abortion which can cause infection; 2. infection of the uterus; 3. Exessive bleeding; 4. Torn Cervix; 5. infection of fallopian tubes; 6. Puctured Uterus; 7. Blood clots in the uterus; 8. damage to internal organs; and that is just a few of them. Some of these do occur in childbirth, but since most woman stay at least 24-48 hours after a child is born, (or in some undeveloped countries the midwife and/or relatives stay in the home to care for the mother up to 7 days after the birth) these complication are caught before going home. With abortion you go home within hours (if not minutes) after the abortion and left on your own. Also, there is no such thing as an illegal childbirth because it is natural. Very rarely is there as many problems with childbirth as there are with illegal abortions.
Did any of you see this today..so sad
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071021/NEWS/710210357/-1/NEWS01
Posted by: valerie at October 22, 2007 4:40 PM–and Valerie..lets us not forget to drive home that with abortion, there is always one death. Sometimes the mother dies too!
Abortion morbidity
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=4036997&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
The authors examined the age, gestational age, parity, race, and number of previous spontaneous and induced abortions of 82,030 women who obtained abortions at less than 24 weeks’ gestation. Among these women, 342 (0.4%) had serious complications, including 130 (0.2%) with fever of over 38 degrees Centigrade for 3 or more days, 172 (0.2%) who required transfusions, 67 (0.1%) who requied unintended surgery, and 3 who died.
Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1985 Sep 1;153(1):14-20.
Dan: “Jasper, if you read the law, abortions after viability are ONLY allowed in cases in which the health or life of the woman is threatened.”
yea, I read it Dan, this just means any abortion, at any time. “health” is refered to as anything which causes “distress”. It’s a joke.
Laura: “Just the paparazzi photos”
Instead of always being cynical Laura, can you ever answer a question seriously?
Jasper, why don’t you listen to your own admonitions? I have a post I’d like YOU to see. You’re quite the cynic yourself when you can’t answer a question intelligently (which, sorry to say, is often).
A fake picture published as a figure in The Lancet? I don’t think so.
Posted by: SoMG at October 22, 2007 5:15 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SoMG, what are the chances that Heather has ever HEARD of The Lancet?
We’re talking about the same person who thought that the Marquis de Sade was the chick who sang “Sweetest Taboo.” (I’m not kidding…)
Posted by: Laura at October 22, 2007 5:39 AM
…………………………………………
I’m starting to get the idea of what the home schooled by the undeducated are contributing to the world.
I checked out the article Somg posted from the Nation.
There was a link at the bottom to a pro abortion site about coping with abortion.
http://www.lifescript.com/channels/well_being/Meditations_Motivations/coping_with_abortion_youre_not_alone.asp?trans=1&gclid=CIyjs-bfoo8CFSCTWAodNCr7ew
Here are some lines from the article:
” I had a friend who had the decision of abortion to make. At the time, she was engaged to be married within six months of finding out she was pregnant. ”
“When she told her fianc
On standardized norm referenced tests,
homeschool students average scores: 84 percentile
public school students average scores: 50 percentile
Follow this link
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:59ebGS0taQAJ:www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf+homeschool+achievement+percentile&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari
These stats include many moms with only a high school education.
Educational experts and research shows the single greatest predictor of student success is student teacher ratio.
That is why special ed and ESL students are in smaller classes.
I can’t tell you how many professional develpment sessions I have attended where this was explained.
Dan: “Jasper, if you read the law, abortions after viability are ONLY allowed in cases in which the health or life of the woman is threatened.”
yea, I read it Dan, this just means any abortion, at any time. “health” is refered to as anything which causes “distress”. It’s a joke.
Posted by: jasper at October 22, 2007 5:07 PM
……………………
You were born without a mother. Having sprung forth from the forehead of satan, only you can define distress on any level and for anyone. The more distress you can create, the better your father satan will like you. @@
Did the Polish woman give birth?
And did she lose her sight?
“Dan –
According to Amnesty Internations “grave risk of health to mother” includes if a woman will go blind if she gives birth. There very first example on their website gives the case of the woman in Poland who was denied an abortion because there was a chance she would loose her site.
Now, this is not an ideal situation, but it is NOT by any means “grave risk”. If it was, that would be an insult to all the blind mother’s in the world.”
Posted by: valerie at October 22, 2007 4:04 PM
Seems the court disagrees valerie:
(http://www.progressiveu.org/194053-european-court-of-human-rights-orders-poland-to-pay-up)
She was awarded a settlement because she was denied an abortion. I don’ know about you, bu going blind would certainly pose a grave risk to the mother’s health, at least in my view. Doesn’t allowing a woman to go blind because you are capable of, but refuse to carry out, an abortion, go against the preventing harm to a patient? Because going blind certainly seems to cause harm to me, not to mention it could have been prevented, another issue dealing with that oath.
article re polish woman.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2809/
“Tysiac found that illegal abortions typically cost $500. That was expensive but not impossible for Tysiac, a single mother living on a disability pension of about $175 a month.
Then the provider of illegal abortions with whom she was speaking told her that because her two children had been delivered by Caesarian section her procedure would be more complicated and boosted the charge to $1,700, more than three times the average monthly wage in Poland.”
—-She’s not healthy enough to work and no one seems to care about her, except for sex. The abortionist didn’t cut his rate to help her out. Man who got her pregnant didn’t have the dough either. She is either unlucky or . . . .
Jill,
I am wondering what you heard and/or have to say about the exclusion of Alan Keyes from the FRC event. I am extremely disappointed that FRC excluded him.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58265
Bloggers as media
This past weekend’s FRC Washington Briefing afforded me the first real world experience, as opposed to virtual world experience, of functioning as news reporting blogger at a newsmaking event shoulder to shoulder with the mainstream media. I wanted to …
Dan –
*sigh*
Read what you post please.
“Alicia Tysiac was refused an abortion in Poland by three doctors, although all three said there was a risk of her going blind if she delivered the baby.”
There was a risk of her going blind – not that she would go blind.
She had severe Myopia BEFORE getting pregnant with her third child. She was already severly near sighted before getting prenant. Please explain how that is “grave risk to mothers health”? She did have a retinal detatchment from the pregnancy and birth and her eyesite did prematurely worsened. But she was still going blind nonetheless even if she had the abortion she would still be going blind. Of course, none of the liberal media had information on that. I had to do fact checking through medical journals to see how this scenerio would be possible. Then, when i found no reason for a woman to “just go blind” from being pregnant, and couldn’t find any way a woman ‘would not know’ she had eyesite difficulty I contacted some of my relatives in Poland. They filled in the blanks. She won her hearing on the issue because she went to a European court of appeals. Europe wants Poland to change their abortion laws. What a surprise that they would rule in her favor!
By the way – maybe you should tell these people “bu going blind would certainly pose a grave risk to the mother’s health, at least in my view.”
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Default.asp
Dan,
ONLY allowed in cases in which the health or life of the woman is threatened.
With a million and a half abortions in this country every year, I think we should be concerned about how many seriously “ill” women are walking around. And ask ourselves, if they are that sick, then why are they having sex? Shouldn’t they be in bed?
Valerie,
you wrote,
“She won her hearing on the issue because she went to a European court of appeals. Europe wants Poland to change their abortion laws. What a surprise that they would rule in her favor!”
I read that there have been 5 referendums on abortion in Ireland in the past 20 years. Each time the public declines to legalize abortion. Why does the government waste the money asking the public over and over?
A friend of mine lived in Hannover Germany. The city leaders wanted an Expo to come to town but the people voted it down twice. So they had a media campaign and asked them again and it finally passed.
It reminds me of a child who nags mom for candy till she gives in.
Valerie,
also from the blind advocacy site,
“Judy and her husband underwent genetic testing and it was determined that the blindness was a genetic disorder. Judy explained the odds were that if she had one hundred children, four of them would be blind and it could occur in either boys or girls. It just so happened that two out of their four children were born with this disorder and they both happened to be girls.
“And ask ourselves, if they are that sick, then why are they having sex? Shouldn’t they be in bed?”
That’s probably where most of them had sex.
Hal,
I almost wrote “in bed with their feet up…”
but that was a “give-me”
I know, I couldn’t resist.
http://forums.thegnomonworkshop.com/member.php?u=23457 >female viagra
MK, of those 1.5 million, how many had them performed post-viability? My bet is a VERY small percetage.
Ron Paul is the only candidate for a pro-lifer to vote for. He will demolish Roe v. Wade and return the abortion issue to the states, where it should be. And considering that the Constitution of the Federal Government of the US, as well as I believe EVERY state, gives the right to life, abortion will once again be recognized for what it is – MURDER – which is ILLEGAL already. The other candidates are either pro-abortion (Guiliani, Romney), or have no plan to do anything other than try to pass more insignificant legislation that will not come close to stopping the baby-killing machine. Vote Ron Paul!!!!
I’d never support Guliani just because he’s slightly less pro-abortion. Both he and Hillary would be a disaster for the judiciary.
I like Huckabee, but I don’t think he can win a general election. The best chance for a pro-life victory is to rally behind McCain. I realize that conservatives disagree with him on campaign finance reform and immigration policy, but these issues should be very low priorities, considering that the fate of the next generation of unborn babies likely hinges on the outcome of the next presidential election.