The Underground Railroad’s incrementalism
Another FRC Washington Briefing prequel….
I attended a private meeting at which Ken Blackwell spoke, and he gave me permission to quote him. Blackwell is a former OH Secretary of State who unsuccessfully ran for governor last year. He is currently FRC’s Senior Fellow for Family Empowerment.
Blackwell prefaced this remark by stating pro-lifers should pursue incremental and purist strategies simultaneously. Regarding incrementalism he made an analogous point….
It would have been foolhardy for the workers of the Underground Railroad to wait until they could take all the slaves off the plantation before they started. They took who they could take off the plantation when they could take them off, at any time and in any number they could.
Likewise, we have to save babies when we can, at any time we can, in any number we can.
[Photos courtesy of FRC]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If the slaves had been inside the body of a person, the analogy would be a lot better.
Doug
If slaves had been in the body of a person, you’d be fine with cutting them into pieces.
In that sense, the unborn are slaves, at least, slaves to the will of the mother.
Not surprising, since many of those “personally opposed” to slavery where pro-choice in that they believed the choice to own slaves belongs to the white person to make, not to government.
Some tradition you’re following there, Doug! I proudly follow the tradition of the abolitionists, the feminists (birthed out of the abolition movement) and those committed to doing what they can for humanity. I love the company I keep.
Yeah, Doug, and if the slaveholders had been treating their own children like property, rather than total strangers unrelated to them, the analogy would be better, too.
Look at our simultaneous postings, Jaqueline. Great minds think alike!
Jacque- for the first 18 years of their life, kids ARE slaves to the will of their parents.
And the mothers are slaves to the fetus.
Its all just one circular analogy.
As for the “company you keep”
And pro choicers think the government should interfere on behalf of the woman to allow them to have reproductive freedom, as they should. Not unlike those who thought the government should step in to give the slaves literal freedom.
If you wan to use analogies, be aware that either side can twist them whichever way they want. Analogies for this issue really don’t work all that well.
Jacqueline, the slaves undeniably suffered a great deal, and were independent, not inside the body of a person.
“Doing for humanity” is not taking away the freedom that women have in this matter, there being no demonstrable need on humanity’s part for unwanted pregnancies to be continued by force.
Doug
Christina: if the slaveholders had been treating their own children like property, rather than total strangers unrelated to them, the analogy would be better, too.
Hmm… Nope.
Doug
MK: I never feel like the pro-choicers on this site should be “punished”…I really don’t. I pray that will be given the grace to see the truth. But I never desire their unhappiness.
I want desperately to see them all with me in the end.
Through the wonders of modern technology, this has been brought forward in time.
MK, thank you for that. It was a wonderful post you made, back on that thread from Oct. 12. You said nice things about quite a few people.
A couple other things you’ve said that have impressed me: you mentioned driving and being stopped at a red light or stopsign, and crying. I forget exactly why, but it was a great showing of your emotion – one that took me by surprise – and I really appreciated it, me bein’ a Pisces and all.
Despite our differences, there’s no doubt about the depth of your feelings. If somebody says that “MK doesn’t really care,” well – I would certainly argue with them.
At one point you said, “I love the Church,” and I got quite a feeling there too. Beyond any objections I have to religion or Catholicism, etc., I can see that it can be such a good thing, and I felt “warm” just from reading what you wrote.
Here’s hoping that all angels and ministers of grace bless you.
Doug
yllas: I simply see Doug as a Nikoli Gogal character who “buys the souls of dead peasant fetuses” for gain and profit. Who went looking for those who got beyond the pale and returns them to the ghetto world where abortion is desirable.
yllas, if you’re still around and reading, I gotta say that your posts are some of the most zany things I’ve ever seen, yet they are also interesting.
I didn’t take you very seriously, but if you do really want to discuss stuff, what proof of “souls” do you see?
We are talking about the freedom of women to make their own best choice as far as continuing or ending pregnancies. It’s not that abortion is “desirable” in a vacuum. If the world would be a “ghetto” then you’d likely see much less pro-life sentiment, in the first place.
(And can I be an Assistant Vicelord to Erin?)
Doug
P.S. How about a Pan-Galactic Strawboss Lieutenant Vicelord?
Jacque- for the first 18 years of their life, kids ARE slaves to the will of their parents.
Posted by: Erin at October 18, 2007 4:33 PM
Erin, it’s painfully obvious that you do not have children.
Kristen, its obvious that you dont realize minors must do everything their parents ask unless they emancipate themselves, or unless it is abuse.
They are really, in a sense, slaves to their parents.
“And the mothers are slaves to the fetus.”
only in the mind of a pychopath
Kristen, its obvious that you dont realize minors must do everything their parents ask unless they emancipate themselves, or unless it is abuse.
They are really, in a sense, slaves to their parents.
Posted by: Dan at October 18, 2007 5:18 PM
Okay, it’s JUST as obvious that you do not have children either.
Do you think ALL the kids who’ve dropped out of school as sixteen did it because their parents demanded it of them? Or all the kids having sex have their parents outside the bedroom door telling them they must? Ludicrous.
Boy, if that were only the case! I could lounge around doing nothing while my kids shopped, cooked, cleaned, as well as do their homework. Sounds like paradise! Of course, as anyone WITH children will tell you that’s not the case. Please!
kristen, damn straight I dont have kids. I’m seventeen and don’t plan on it any time soon.
Kristen, kids must do what is told of them by parents, that is fact whether you like it or not. What you have said does prove it, despite what you are trying to convey. As children get older they do get more independence and more rights. However, as I recall, I believe parent signatures have to be on official drop out forms, but maybe thats just my school.
As for sex, most could care less what their parents say about it. They can certainly tell them not to, but once again at the age of consent the parent can no longer do anything about it.
Dan, my husband is a teacher and no, no signature is required. But let’s say one was required and the parents wouldn’t give consent. Would that child say “Well, I guess I’ll go to school.” I think not.
As for the sex, that proves my point. How are children slaves to their parents when they don’t care about what they say on a very important issue?
You are not bolstering your case at all. Would you like to try more? Please tell me how children are slaves to their parents. Is it because they might have to take out the trash? Or clean their room? Those bastards!
Erin and Dan, if you ever do have children I can guarantee you that you will look back on this conversation and say “How could I have been so stupid?”
Well, then perhaps it is just my school, because parental/guardian signature was required for a friend of mine to drop out, as was a conference I believe.
No Kristen, I wont. Because in all reality, yes, kids can do what they want, i.e. not listen. But until the kids are 18, parents hold full legal control over the child. This includes finances, property, schooling (for the majority of it anyway),etc. The child may be able to disobey, but if they want anything that is “theirs” they really have to keep the parents in a good enough mood, i.e. listen, often enough to get it, or else the parents wont give any of it up until the child is 18, and even then they can get away with keeping most, if not all of it.
Perhaps it isn’t “slavery” per se, maybe a form of blackmail would be more appropriate.
See Dan, that’s the problem. You feel that the finances, property, etc. belong to you. It doesn’t. That belongs to your parents and they are allowing you to use it out of the goodness of their heart. You are not a slave you are a free-loader. I have six free-loaders and I love them dearly. They don’t do any meaningful work in return (unless you count school work, which you probably do, but you are also given that by the taxes your parents pay.) Try to see it as a means to your OWN finances, property, etc. Then you can stop living off your parents.
No, I have property, I have a bank account, it simply cant be under my name alone until I am 18. Until then it has to be under my parents name as well. I buy stuff with my own money, but it is technically theirs until I am 18.
Minors cant own anything or have their own finances (well 17 you get a single bank account, but hey). Until 18, everything a minor has is technically a possession of the parents. That is my point. If I moved out and my mom wanted to claim something as hers, she could and would most likely would win. She could clean out my bank account, as her name is still on it (and will remain so, as I do trust her and we have a good relationship). But others arent as lucky as I am in that respect. Some parents take everything that is the minors” and claim it as their own, sometimes as a payment” for raising the kid. The minor really gets the short end of the stick, until 18, nothing is their own, aside from finances/bank account at 17 if they so choose.
Parents hold far more power than you give them credit for.
Dan,
The child may be able to disobey, but if they want anything that is “theirs” they really have to keep the parents in a good enough mood, i.e. listen, often enough to get it, or else the parents wont give any of it up until the child is 18, and even then they can get away with keeping most, if not all of it.
You probably don’t realize it yet,(unless you have a part time job, but even then I’m talking on a grander scale), but having a job sounds exactly like being “a kid” except instead of enslaved to your parents you are enslaved to your boss.
You have to be where he tells you to be, when he tells you to be, wear what he tells you to wear, eat when he says you can eat, do the jobs he gives you, don’t talk back and if you manage to do all of this, he’ll give you your paycheck which you can keep.
Sounds a lot like blackmail to me too.
Dan, you are incorrect about the bank account. You cannot have a checking account perhaps, but a savings account can be obtained. My husband had a car in his own name at 16, although it was paid in full and a beater.
You cannot enter into a contract under the age of 18 without a parent, and really it’s your parent in the contract not you.
I’m sure you have “property” but I doubt your mom would put up much of a fight about your Ipod.
Your right in the fact that I don’t have property that is of much of a significant value, aside from my bank account, and soon my laptop, but technically the parent can take it at any point claiming it as theirs, which at this point in my life,I admit, certainly irks me.
And I realized I was incorrect about the account after I posted, you have to be 17 for an ATM card, or have a guardian on the account. So essentially its convenience/teens being deemed “irresponsible there
What kind of math are you taking in HS, Dan?
Oh, and are you looking at colleges? If so, which ones? God love you, Dan.
Doug,
MK, thank you for that. It was a wonderful post you made, back on that thread from Oct. 12. You said nice things about quite a few people.
If there is one thing that I have learned from my conversion it is that everyone, and I mean everyone, has a story. If I were to go around “judging” the hearts of every one that believed differently than I, I’d be pretty bitter and pretty lonely.
One of the reasons that I love Mother Teresa so much is that, while SHE believed with all her heart and soul in God, she understood that the people she was caring for did not believe in Him.
But that had nothing to do with what SHE was called to do.
When I meet my love, and He asks me why I did or didn’t do certain things, why I treated people badly, and I reply “Because they deserved it! They didn’t love you” I’m pretty sure His response is going to be “I’ll get to them when I get to them…right now I’m talking to you. Why did you, Mary Kay, do what you did?”
I said nice things about you guys, because you are nice. You make me laugh, and cry and wonder and hope. Not one of you has ever attacked me personally. I have always been treated with respect.
I guess you could say that despite our differences, it is my valuation that you all have great value. And I feel blessed to have been led to you all.
I really do hope that after this play has run it’s course, we will all meet at the “cast party”. If even one of you is missing, I’ll know that I didn’t do my job.
Oh. And thank you.
MK
Doug,
You wrote,
”
“Doing for humanity” is not taking away the freedom that women have in this matter, there being no demonstrable need on humanity’s part for unwanted pregnancies to be continued by force.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at October 18, 2007 4:42 PM
What force?
No force is required to maintain a pregnancy and no force can stop a miscarriage.
No one forces her to get pregnant. It is the consequence of her voluntary action.
Denying access to abortion is not force.
Bobby, I’m currently taking AP Calculus AB.
Looking into Northeaster, BU, Suffolk, UMass Amherst and Boston, UNH, UConn, NYU, and Bucknell
Dan,
I have to agree with you 100% about the way teens are treated like babies. It is ridiculous. Humans reach physical and mental maturity about 13-15 years old. I taught high school and plenty of students behave more maturely than some parents, teachers and administrators.
Prominent psychologists like Jean Piaget tried to quantify the ages and stages of mental development and developed many measures of such. With all the different tests he and his colleagues developed, they were unable to find any measureable increase in reasoning ability past the age of 15 and a half.
The fact is there are many business that make lots of money promoting the silly superficial teen culture.
Teens literally are restricted twice as much as convicts and active duty military.
If any other age group were singled out for so much ridicule based soley on their age, they would “act out” just as much as teens who resist being treated like irresponsible lazy losers even though better than 90% are not like that at all.
Don’t listen to any who put you down. Have faith in yourself.
Ah, very good. How’s the calculus going? I teach my kids continuity tomorrow. That’s gonna rock!
If you’re looking at UNH, you could maybe consider Dartmouth? It’s a gorgeous campus. Do you have any ideas what you might want to major in, or is it still too early to tell? God love you.
What force?
No force is required to maintain a pregnancy and no force can stop a miscarriage.
No one forces her to get pregnant. It is the consequence of her voluntary action.
Denying access to abortion is not force.
Thank you, Hippie!
Calculus is ok, but my whole class got lost today, we’re learning how to apply both the derivative and second derivative to the original function, and drawing an estimated graph from them. So not fun.
Dartmouth is far above my reach. I’m a good student, bu not THAT good.
I’m planning on a dual major of poli sci and history.
and hippie, I do have faith in myself. Is funny, I remember after returning from a long absence, one of the new(er?) members thought i was much older than 17. They were shocked, and that certainly gave me confidence in my abilities. Lol.
Hippie, I’m thinking that may be the reason why the legal drop outy age is 16 as well, would make sense. However, I do think that further developing needs to be done for most teens (at least in my school) and 18 certainly] fits most of them. It just sucks being considered more mature, ec when in the eyes of the law it means nothing (unless you’re on trial of course).
Yeah it’s a real pain to sketch the graph of the derivative. Critical points, concavity, blah. Well, very good. I hope your studies go well.
Thanks, good luck with continuity.
If only math were that simple still. “Tell whether or not this function is continuous. Explain *sigh*
Haha. Well, actually, that can be a quite difficult question. In fact, here is a strange fact that you’ll appreciate: “Almost all” functions which are continuous everywhere are differentiable nowhere. This means that if you take the entire collection of everywhere continuous functions, and pull one out randomly, it’s basically 100% that you will pull out a function that is nowhere differentiable. And the thing is, how many continuous non-differentiable functions can people name? Like one, |x|. Counterintuitive.
Oh, actually, are you planning on going onto Calc II? Derivitives are ok, but integrals and especially infinite series are where it’s at!
Dan,
You wrote,
“Dartmouth is far above my reach. I’m a good student, bu not THAT good.”
Don’t underestimate yourself, ever.
When I enrolled in college, I was prepared to be wowed by the experience. I had a few (very few) great professors. But honestly after about a year or so, I figured out that despite opportunity and education, most of them weren’t any smarter than my mom who had only a high school education.
Even at your age and with less than 18 years behind you, you are probably already smarter than some of the profs you will soon have.
The smartest person I know is a woman with a 10 th grade education who ended up in the US after marrying at 17, having a baby and then refuging from Bosnia after her husband was murdered.
Education helps you get a job, be informed, and work the system.
It doesn’t make you good, and it doesn’t make you smart.
Yeah Dan, Hippie is right. Ya know, a lot of the students here are very intelligent, but not a whole lot more than I’d say most hard working, driven high schoolers. The application process seems to me to be mostly about who you know, whether that be people involved with the school you’re applying to or people who write you good letters of recommendation. You do seem very well spoken, and you actually respond in a rational way on this board. If it means anything, I think you could cut it here :) God love you.
hippie, im not underestimating myself. Thats why NYU and Bucknell are on my lists. NYU is a reach, and Bucknell is more of a leap, lol.
I feel like if I had pushed myself more, the ivies would certainly be within my reach, but instead I decided to be involved in more areas and give myself time to step back and relax if I needed it.
Bobby, where do you teach?
Ahhhhh, NYU. I got into the musical theatre program at Tisch while I was applying. I was so upset when we couldn’t afford it.
Erin, I won’t be able to afford it either unless I get some miracle scholarship. Lol
Yeah, I was gonna say, NYU is right up there at the top. It is good to have some schools that you think are out of your range because you never know.
I’m actually a graduate student at Dartmouth, and I’m teaching a first course in the calculus here this term. We had a test last night, and I’m grading it now, back and forth between that and this blog, and so based on some of these test results, I have much confidence in your ability to get into Dartmouth, hehe.
” I got into the musical theatre program at Tisch while I was applying.”
Oh man, I didn’t know that. I remember you telling me that you still want to go there for graduate school in, history is it? When will you start applying?
Dan, that is an unfortunate drawback of schools like NYU and Dartmouth; super expensive. I think it’s like $40,000 a year here or something like that. Outrageous.
NYU is possibly one of the most outrageously expensive schools I’ve ever seen in my life. Bobby- I’m not sure right now. I’m kind of floating around right now in terms of major and grad school and stuff.
Kristen: Erin, it’s painfully obvious that you do not have children.
Careful there, Missy – you’re talkin’ to a Vicelord.
yeah, they are ridiculously expensive. Really annoying because I’ll most likely going to a school that is a decent fit, but not as good as my top choice school.
Dartmouth was originally on my list, but I dropped i off. I could probably do well there if I got in, the issue is getting in. Especially when compared to people like a friend of mine who has like a 4.5 cumulative gpa and a 2340 on the SATs, lol.
What year are you, Erin?
I had a bank account before I was 18… in my name, the whole nine yards. I admit – it was the mid-1970s, but is it against some law to have one as a kid?
Doug
Oh that’s right, they changed the SATs. What is it out of now?
Sophomore, Bobby
It’s out of 2400. A writing section was added.
yeah doug, there are more restrictions now.
I know, at least here in MA, you gotta be 17 to have your own savings account with an ATM card. you can have a plain old savings account before that, but what the age restriction is, I have no idea
Derivatives are ok, but integrals and especially infinite series are where it’s at!
Bobby – I have to laugh – oh does that bring back memories. It’s been 30 years but I remember feeling like integration “never stops…:”
I do have a series of CD-ROMs at home on Calculus, just since I missed it so.
Doug
Ah, so you have some time, Erin.
“but I remember feeling like integration “never stops…:””
And why would it? When exposed to integration, who’d want to stop?
What force? No force is required to maintain a pregnancy and no force can stop a miscarriage. No one forces her to get pregnant. It is the consequence of her voluntary action. Denying access to abortion is not force.
Hippie, the force of the law, the force of having it be illegal to have abortions. Granted that there’s nothing like actual physical restraint at work, but so it is for all such law.
Having abortion be illegal would be a reflection of the desire to force the continuation of pregnancies. If it were a case of “pushing a button” and forcing women to continue pregnancies, many a pro-lifer would be pushing away.
Doug
Humans reach physical and mental maturity about 13-15 years old.
Hippie,
L O L and L O L.
Okay, I think I know what you mean, sort of, but still…..
Doug
Sure,
We finally start talking like real people and it’s a subject I know absolutely nothing about.
I always hated math. It’s one of those “absolutes” that Doug talks about. So if the answer is wrong, it ALWAYS means that YOU did something wrong.
And my answer was always wrong.
I used to play a word game in the Chicago Tribune. Had to unscramble words to make a 7 letter or less word. They’d give you the highest score possible and you’d try to get as close to it as possible. I consistently got the words right. But it would take me 3 or 4 tries to add the score up. Pathetic.
I can spell calculus!
Doug,
You wrote on another thread about the overwhelming number of studies showing something.
I think you missed my point. I was not talking about purely elective early abortions. I was talking about the mental health exception for late abortion.
1) What is the point of a mental health exception to protect a mother’s psychological health if there is no scientific evidence that a protective effect exists?
2) I was looking for scientific studies (such as the ones I cited to you) that could give a scientific basis for a mental health exception for late term abortions. The ones I cited showed a much higher suicide rate post abortion than post delivery. That is not a protective effect, rather a harmful effect.
3) Is there any scientific evidence that an abortion would protect a mother’s psychological health?
4) It doesn’t matter how many studies you have if they have enormous dropout rates, selection bias and use unvalidated measures. If they give a “questionaire,” then they could give the MMPI or other rigorous instrument for psychological measurement. Investigator generated questions are not scientific measures.
lol MK, I’m average at math. Takes a lot of thinking and looking at my book/notes over and over again for me to understand it. After Algebra I, (aka after 8th grade) I got Cs consistently in math. This year Im getting a B so far, but its because right now we’re doing review. Well, thats what I think for now, we’ll see how it goes from now on.
Dan – oh yeah, ATM cards, those things that weren’t around back when I was a teenager, since there weren’t any ATMs.
Seems strange to think of having to wait until Monday morning when the banks opened up, sometimes severely cramping one’s style, but it happened at times back then.
Dawg
I remember going to the Drake hotel in downtown Chicago a few years ago and trying to pay cash. It took 3 managers to figure out how to do it. lol.
Doug,
You wrote,
“Humans reach physical and mental maturity about 13-15 years old.
Hippie,
L O L and L O L.
Okay, I think I know what you mean, sort of, but still…..
Doug
Posted by: Doug at October 18, 2007 8:44 PM
I hate to sound rude, but this is exactly the type of ridicule and bias I am talking about. If the gov’t took away your rights and responsibilities and gave you a task that they chose, how would that affect your behavior?
That is exactly what happens to teens.
They are as capable as the rest of the adults.
They lack experience and of course need more, but hey, I am still learning even as my capacity to learn is waning.
I worked with young adults aged 13-19 for years.
They are very capable and responsible.
There is copious scientific evidence that humans do reach physical and mental maturity at about 13-15. Check it for yourself.
I know often people don’t like science that challenges their cultural beliefs.
There is nothing I can really do about that other than just tell it like it is.
I think you missed my point. I was not talking about purely elective early abortions. I was talking about the mental health exception for late abortion.
Hippie, I stand corrected.
……
1) What is the point of a mental health exception to protect a mother’s psychological health if there is no scientific evidence that a protective effect exists?
Because “a woman’s” psychological health in no way is necessarily dependent on what is true for a studied group or even true for all women in general. Allowing for such exceptions is one thing, and saying that “late-term abortions are good for womens’ psychological health” would be another. Studies are one thing, but we are already down to a relatively very few women when we’re talking about abortions after 26 or 24 weeks, and would such findings outweigh and/or overrule the woman herself and her doctor? Heck, I don’t think so.
Last I saw there were about 500-600 abortions per year in the US past 26 weeks and a hair over 1000 past 24 weeks, most of them for severe physical danger to the woman and/or severe fetal problems. I don’t know what the numbers would be for the “to protect the woman’s psychological health,” but it’d be well down in the hundreds, for the whole country. And anyway, we’re really talking about what is usually past viability, or at least a good shot at it, so seems to me the pregnancy can be ended by inducing delivery – although I realize the woman could be against that.
……
2) I was looking for scientific studies (such as the ones I cited to you) that could give a scientific basis for a mental health exception for late term abortions. The ones I cited showed a much higher suicide rate post abortion than post delivery. That is not a protective effect, rather a harmful effect.
Who says it’s an effect at all? There are undoubtably other ways in which that studied group differs from women as a whole and from women who give birth, but it’s not a given that having abortions “caused” those differences.
……
3) Is there any scientific evidence that an abortion would protect a mother’s psychological health?
If she’s got a whole slew of kids already, probably so. Everybody has their limit. IMO “mother” is stretching things a bit, but no biggie. In general, late in abortion, there may not be such proof – I’m interested in what you found. I’d guess that a woman who puts off having an abortion until 24 weeks or later has some serious conflicts – could be any number of places – and as with abortions as a whole, it’s women who had psychological problems beforehand who most tend to have them afterwards. So, is having the abortion going to “cure” her? Very possibly not, perhaps even probably not.
……
4) It doesn’t matter how many studies you have if they have enormous dropout rates, selection bias and use unvalidated measures. If they give a “questionaire,” then they could give the MMPI or other rigorous instrument for psychological measurement. Investigator generated questions are not scientific measures.
Agreed, and you’ve done a good job.
Doug
The irrepressible MaryKay: I always hated math. It’s one of those “absolutes” that Doug talks about. So if the answer is wrong, it ALWAYS means that YOU did something wrong.
\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
Glasses full of Absolut vodka. Feel free to mix with other solutions of your choice, MK, if desired.
There are 7 glasses; don’t worry about how the equation was solved.
Oh yes – drink immediately. It won’t matter if you did anything “wrong,” then.
Now that’s what I’m talkin’ about….
Professor D.
*Hic*…
Ahhhhhhh…now I see it 2 + 2 = whatever you want!
Hah! Mathematical relativism!
Doug,
The number of late term abortions that I saw was 160,000 which is not “few”. Even if it were 100,000 or even 50,000, that is not few.
As for arguing about who or what or why or I think or you think, I mean really, the point is there is a law that makes a specific exception for a specific circumstance for a purpose that has not been demonstrated to exist.
Either there exists a measurable benefit or there doesn’t.
If not, it is simply a matter of, as my brother calls it, “I think therefore its true.”
It’s like asking poll questions of those with little to no understanding of a topic. I call it “let’s ask the ignorant what they think”
Is this really the way we want to approach legislating restrictions and exceptions to abortion access? or immigration? or going to war? or ….?
Either decisions are based on evidence and reason or they are not.
I hate to sound rude, but this is exactly the type of ridicule and bias I am talking about. If the gov’t took away your rights and responsibilities and gave you a task that they chose, how would that affect your behavior?
Hippie, no problem – don’t worry about how you sound. I was kidding, and I guess it didn’t sound that way to you. I hear you on Piaget’s findings, etc.
Reasoning ability is one thing, but you gotta admit, people hearing that 13-15 year olds are “mentally mature” are gonna do a double-take, often.
Doug
Hippie, if we’re talking about “exceptions” for the woman’s “mental health” then we’re talking about 24 weeks and later. 160,000 abortions, etc., isn’t that.
Either there exists a measurable benefit or there doesn’t.
I am saying that there may indeed not be a “cure” for the group as a whole or in general, and that some individuals may well continue to have problems. But that does not mean that other individuals won’t benefit.
I’ve got a 25 year old and a 21 year old that I wish had the maturity of the 13 year olds you’re talking about. Heck I wish they had the maturity of my 7 year old. Mostly I’m just glad they don’t live at home. Do you have any idea how bad socks smell after you wear them for nine days straight? And why can’t they grasp the concept that you wash sheets, not use them till they fall apart and then buy new ones?
And you’d think that by their 20’s they’d have caught on that people wake up when the sun rises, not go to bed!
And you’d think that by their 20’s they’d have caught on that people wake up when the sun rises, not go to bed!
speaking of which, 7 shots of vodka and 5 am starin’ at me…*yawn*
Good night!
Doug,
Let me clarify. Some states ban abortion after the first trimester and call everything after that “late”
I think that about 160,000 fall in this category.
It is my understanding that most exceptions are for psychological health.
I understand that there are other exceptions but I was not discussing those.
MK,
Thanx for making my point. There are plenty of people of all ages who make good decisions, questionable decisions and poor decisions.
Teens make the same variety of decisions at the same rate as other adults.
Let me clarify. Some states ban abortion after the first trimester and call everything after that “late” I think that about 160,000 fall in this category. It is my understanding that most exceptions are for psychological health.
Hippie – nope, they can’t do it, per the Roe decision. Viability is where they can do that, if they “find it in their interest to do so.”
Doug
I’ve got a 25 year old and a 21 year old that I wish had the maturity of the 13 year olds you’re talking about.
I’ve got a wife who has a husband who she wishes would have the maturity of those teenagers at times.
Doug
You wrote,
Either there exists a measurable benefit or there doesn’t.
“I am saying that there may indeed not be a “cure” for the group as a whole or in general, and that some individuals may well continue to have problems. But that does not mean that other individuals won’t benefit.”
Posted by: Doug at October 18, 2007 9:34 PM
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. We have yet to uncover evidence that there is benefit at all let alone more to some and less to others.
Simply saying, “I think someone will benefit,” doesn’t make it so.
Doug,
you wrote,
“Hippie – nope, they can’t do it, per the Roe decision. Viability is where they can do that, if they “find it in their interest to do so.”
Doug
Posted by: Doug at October 18, 2007 9:47 PM
Interesting point. I will have to look at that.
Thanx
“Hippie – nope, they can’t do it, per the Roe decision. Viability is where they can do that, if they “find it in their interest to do so.””
I may be way off cause it’s late, but I thought it was Casey vs. Planned Parenthood in 1992 that said abortions could be performed until viability, overturning what Roe said, which was that abortions could be performed until 24 weeks or something like that. I suppose it’s just a technicality, but does that sound right? I can’t think anymore.
Doug,
Thanx for pointing that out.
I was looking at the NARAL website that discussed the ban after 12 weeks.
Upon closer reading, I discovered that it refers to the partial birth abortion ban in 3 states and to the unenforceable bans in 31 other states.
I wish I were as smart as I was in high school. : )
Hi hippie,
a little about brain physiology: brain cells are not isolates and act as a unit. To accomplish communication, these cells (neurons) have a slew of appendages called axons and dendrites. It is the physical growth of these that stops between the ages 13-15 (onslaught of puberty). However, there is continued brain growth (maturation throughout life) accomplished by numerous brain chemicals so small they are undetected in the crudest brain-mapping.
IMO there is a very strong physical connection between postpartum depression; 3rd-trimester depression; suicide; fetal abnormalities (about 90% of these) – – – all a result of deficient zinc in the developing human.
John McDonell
John,
Thanx for the info. I was just referring to function and behavior. I have also read that certain activities and experiences can affect brain growth and cells condition etc. I can’t say I really know anything about any of that.
As for the zinc thing, is there some nutritional situation regarding that? I mean, I was depressed all through pregnancy but got over it immediately after birth. I have never heard the zinc connection. Is that diet related? I went to a counselor a couple of times but quit going because she kept suggesting that I take antidepressants which I went to counseling to avoid taking. I tried to eat well and took vitamins.
As for zinc levels is that correlation or is there some mechanism for depression?
John M – great post about brain physiology. Fascinating stuff.
…….
Hippie: Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. We have yet to uncover evidence that there is benefit at all let alone more to some and less to others.
Simply saying, “I think someone will benefit,” doesn’t make it so.
Again, “benefit at all” is a general deal. Agreed that it’s a very valid and interesting question, but it’s not like the premise is that nobody benefits. Or is it?
Anyway, with no causality established between the abortions and the suicides, the fact that not all women are going to be helped by it, necessarily, doesn’t make it a bad thing, per se.
Doug
I may be way off cause it’s late, but I thought it was Casey vs. Planned Parenthood in 1992 that said abortions could be performed until viability, overturning what Roe said, which was that abortions could be performed until 24 weeks or something like that. I suppose it’s just a technicality, but does that sound right? I can’t think anymore.
Bobby, unless I’m remembering wrong, Roe said the states can restrict abortion at viability if they want to. They can also regulate hospitals and clinics that perform abortions – I think there was mention of the second trimester here (although I don’t really see why it wouldn’t be for the first too) – to help ensure better health for women.
It’s right in the text of the Roe decision, and I can look it up later.
Doug
(A) FOR THE STAGE PRIOR TO APPROXIMATELY THE END OF THE FIRST TRIMESTER,
THE ABORTION DECISION AND ITS EFFECTUATION MUST BE LEFT TO THE MEDICAL
JUDGMENT OF THE PREGNANT WOMAN’S ATTENDING PHYSICIAN.
(B) FOR THE STAGE SUBSEQUENT TO APPROXIMATELY THE END OF THE FIRST
TRIMESTER, THE STATE, IN PROMOTING ITS INTEREST IN THE HEALTH OF THE
MOTHER, MAY, IF IT CHOOSES, REGULATE THE ABORTION PROCEDURE IN WAYS THAT
ARE REASONABLY RELATED TO MATERNAL HEALTH.
(C) FOR THE STAGE SUBSEQUENT TO VIABILITY, THE STATE IN PROMOTING ITS
INTEREST IN THE POTENTIALITY OF HUMAN LIFE MAY, IF IT CHOOSES, REGULATE,
AND EVEN PROSCRIBE, ABORTION EXCEPT WHERE IT IS NECESSARY, IN APPROPRIATE
MEDICAL JUDGMENT, FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE LIFE OR HEALTH OF THE
MOTHER.
Doug,
Yeah, that is what I remember.
Section B) regarding the health of the mother seems to say the states can regulate, but really all they can do is require abortion clinics to operate like other med clinics, ie. wash instruments etc.
In all that legal speak, it basically comes down to abortion on demand for 9 months.
All you have to do is find a willing doc, pay cash and you can get whatever you want.
Which is where folks like Tiller come in.
Hi hippie,
There are 4 stages in human life that use an unusually high amount of zinc. The two inside pregnancy are from @5-12 weeks gestation eg. optic hardware; the second one starts at the beginning of the 3rd trimester and deepens until birth. All organ systems are preparing for extra-uterine life … eg. the pancreas in making insulin, requires zinc. The 3rd period immediately follows birth, where all organs get a ‘ finishing touch’ to their growth. … you will note that there is a pattern for feeding a babe … human-colostrum (extremely high in zinc) > breast milk > pablum and solid foods (usually meat/fish too).
The 4th period of high zinc use is in sexual maturation (puberty) … both sexes. Of note: sperm has a very high level of zinc, as does skin, as does most hormone production. This is the stage of human growth spurts (especially in males), pimples, PMS, emotional upheavals, etc. etc … it is also the period of defying authority and suicide.
There are likely several interlocking factors that account for zinc deficiencies being related to emotional troubles. The area of the brain called the cerebellum coordinates all human output … for instance, ALL emotion and physical functioning … likely why teens love music … especially dance music; males also seem preoccupied with sport. Anyways, there is part of the cerebellum (mossy fiber layers) that have extremely high zinc levels. Stressing this area will result in uncoordinated functioning, excessive sleepiness (right next to our brain-stem) and, fluctuation of emotions … usually there is a preoccupation with emotions … and an initial attempt to control. [which usually means emotional control instead of muscle-control!]
As you may have guessed, these periods often mirror the moods present to a woman during pregnancy. A Dr Dunn (an OB from New Zealand) decades ago recorded the moods of his pregnant patients during and right after pregnancy. He found that 80% of abortions came at the 8th-10th week of gestation … THE lowest part of the very first depression.
He did not connect this with zinc status. I presume that both mother and developing child share a common pool of zinc. For this reason I think supplementing with zinc (+ taurine – see below) rather than kill a growing child-fetus makes abundant sense.
There is something to add here, I think. Zinc is bound onto cell walls by the amino acid taurine. This is so profound that a coupling of zinc and taurine has to occur in supplementing for the vast majority of positive effects to occur. This is like mortar and bricks for a house. Both the zinc and taurine are ‘fixed in place’ via this relationship. One of the effects is the prime stabilizers on cell walls (zinc is protective). Another thing having to do with PMS is that this bound-taurine acts as THE way that potassium enters cells. This gives cells energy (potassium on the inside; sodium on the outside). Experimentors with PMS found symptoms vanish with 400-600mg potassium each day.
hope you can follow this ,,,,,,,,,,,,
Two thoughts-
Jacque- for the first 18 years of their life, kids ARE slaves to the will of their parents.
For the first 18 years of life, parents must feed, clothe, house and otherwise care for kids. They aren’t allowed to kill them as is the case with an abortion.
Secondly, I quit highschool because I found it degrading to have to ask for permission to pee at 16 years old. I wasn’t quite mature enough for college (although I went anyway), but I knew I couldn’t handle that highschool BS anymore.
It’s this same rationale behind my decision to become self-employed. I found having to call in sick to be degrading. I shouldn’t have to be sick to miss work. If I don’t work, don’t pay me. That’s my motivation to come in, not fear of chastisement.
Okay, thanks Doug. So what am I thinking of? Did Casey vs. PP change any sort of thing that Roe had said? I don’t know law. God love you, Doug.
Bobby-
Casey ushered in viability as an abortion standard vs. the trimester approach.
Not that any of this matters since kids can be legally aborted as they are being born. As long as the head is still inside the mother, that child has to right to her life and limbs.
“Casey ushered in viability as an abortion standard vs. the trimester approach.”
That’s what I thought, but it seems like Doug is saying Roe did that. Yeah, what I mean to say above (and couldn’t remember cause I was so tired last night) was that I thought Roe said you can perform abortions until 1st trimester and Casey said viability. Is THAT correct? I may just not be getting the difference, though. God love you, friend.
Roe made first trimester abortions legal on demand. Doe v. Bolton (passed that same day), made abortions legal through all nine months for “health” reasons, which could be anything at all.
Casey said abortions should be on demand up until viability (after the first trimester), even though viability has nothing to do with the baby and everything to do with our medical technology. I believe babies will eventually be viable in artificial wombs sometime in the next 30 years. What then, Planned Parenthood?
P.S. You may not know law, Bobby, but you know math. In fact, you will forget more about math than I will ever know about math. :)
Thanks Jacqu.
“I believe babies will eventually be viable in artificial wombs sometime in the next 30 years.”
This is an interesting point, and one that I think about sometimes, especially in light of the IVF embryos. I wonder if an artificial womb would be the only acceptable moral thing to do. I’ve read some good theologians who do not support embryo adoption. They make some good points, but it’s really tough. Do you have any ideas about the 400000 or so frozen embryos, Jacqu? God love you.
Bobby,
I thought seriously about carrying those embryos and placing them for adoption (especially since they’d otherwise not get a chance at life and there ae 10 million couples ready to receive them). My boyfriend at the time convinced me that this would be an assault to my dignity, and lamented that the selfishness and evil of people would compell innocent people like myself to participate in some degree to limit that evil. That’s what my ex considers embryo adoption to be. I consider it to be giving those kids a chance who were unfortunate enough to have been created artificially by selfish bastards that only cared about them if they were the 1 in 5 that survived long enough to become a giggly infant. I do see my ex’s point though.
I think that is what artificial wombs would do- participate in the immoral removal of reproduction from God’s intended context (a married couple’s conjugal relations). The Church even condemns artificial insemination for this reason. I think artificial jacking with human life is all immoral. IVF needs to cease. The embryos remain inanimate until all are adopted and then no more playing God should be allowable.
That’s my ideal world. But keep in mind we’re living in a selfish society that kills their own kids when they don’t want them (abortion) and kills their own kids when they want them desperately (IVF).
Well, hello gentle readers!
To John McDonnell,
Thanks for the information on zinc/potassium. I had read a similar post several years ago on another prolife blogthread, but neglected to copy it; perhaps you posted that one, also; anyway, this is fascinating, and very helpful; it ought to be shared with all women, especially those facing unexpected pregnancies.
Regarding the original topic of this thread:
Yes, saving as many innocent people from murder, real oppression, and other abuses as one can is simply the right thing to do. It has been rightly said that the measure of a civilized society is its commitment to the protection of the innocent, and that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.
Have you read Frederick Douglass’s autobiography, “My Bondage and My Freedom”? For an in-depth, first hand expose of slavery, it’s hard to beat. You can read it online at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext95/bfree10.txt
and, for those with eyes to see induced abortion as the premeditated, deliberate, savage and unjust taking of innocent human life (hence, the ultimate real oppression), the parallels between the slave trade and the abortion cartel are abundant.
Douglass did not have a high opinion of the Underground Railroad as an effective means of countering slavery, although he was not insensible or unappreciative of the goodwill and sacrifices of the people who participated in it.
He would certainly have dittoed Blackwell’s charge to rescue as many as possible when and where we can.
However, he would not equate a minor’s being subject to their parents, or a preborn child’s living temporarily where nature intended him/her to spend the first formative months of life, with slavery, and with good reason.
Here is what he had to say on this:
“What is slavery? There seems to be a great want of information regarding it. It is not a system whereby a man is compelled to work, it is not slavery to have one peculiar right struck down; if it is, all women, all minors, are slaves. I protest against the use of the term slavery being applied in such a manner
Right, those are good points. I very much see your ex’s point.
“I think that is what artificial wombs would do- participate in the immoral removal of reproduction from God’s intended context”
Another thing to consider, though, is that the evil act (of creating a human being outside the marital act) has already taken place. The fact that one wishes to adopt via implantation or grow an embryo in an artificial womb in no way gives consent to the evil action already done. But on the other hand, to what degree does it undermine the marital act between the adoptive parents? It seems to undermine the conjugal act more when the embryo is implanted than it does if the embryo were grown in an artificial womb. So it seems to me that since reproduction from the conjugal act has already been removed because of another’s action, the action of giving that embryo a chance to grow up in a way that does not violate the integrity of the adopting couples marital act could be permissible. Although, your argument may be that even implanting an embryo into an artificial womb undermines the adopting couple’s conjugal relation. I don’t know. I’m not arguing from either side, just throwing ideas out there.
Bobby,
please, do not look for a fast ‘solution’ via an artificial womb. All kinds of technical problems here: the womb is a unique energy-environment too. The chemicals in a pregnant woman’s body align in such a manner to cause magnetic radiation – necessary for growth without cancer.
Many PC’ers see the dependent relationship in a poor light. It just might be extremely important aspect for the development of the child and the ‘maturing’ of the adult (not to become too oriented to the self) for the child – mother bond to form. How else to explain the tolerance (the doting) over a sick child by its mother?
An artificial womb to replace Mother would encounter numerous pitfalls – like a family to belong to and identify with.
Although, your argument may be that even implanting an embryo into an artificial womb undermines the adopting couple’s conjugal relation. I don’t know.
That’s not my argument at all. I think we have to be clear that we’re not accepting IVF. We don’t accept IVF. It must stop and those embryos must be given a chance (somehow) to grow and live. Taking the abandoned children and attempting to raise them continues to enable this abandonment.
I think an artificial womb is an injustice to a child. I think everything outside of a married couple conceiving a child is an injustice to the child. This is my primary motivation for not having sex outside of marriage, because of the effects it would have on my child (should I conceive one). I’m just looking at limiting the injustice already done, like you said. I don’t see are artificial womb as an answer- but just enabling more people to keep creating children with only a fraction of a chance for survival.
I am simply fed up with the way we treat children in this country. Fed. Up.
John McD, you wrote: “The chemicals in a pregnant woman’s body align in such a manner to cause magnetic radiation – necessary for growth without cancer.”
What is “magnetic radiation”? There’s no such thing.
Hey John.
“please, do not look for a fast ‘solution’ via an artificial womb. All kinds of technical problems here: the womb is a unique energy-environment too. The chemicals in a pregnant woman’s body align in such a manner to cause magnetic radiation – necessary for growth without cancer.”
Okay, granted. I mean, I’m talking very hypothetically here; suppose we have an artificial womb that works perfectly. May not ever happen, but who knows.
I certainly agree with your second paragraph. I guess the point of all this, though, is to try and figure out what is morally acceptable to do with the IVF embryos, and I really don’t have an answer. The artificial womb is just an idea, but yes, there are problems with that. God love you, John.
In all that legal speak, it basically comes down to abortion on demand for 9 months. All you have to do is find a willing doc, pay cash and you can get whatever you want. Which is where folks like Tiller come in.
Hippie, I guess in theory it could work that way, but again, we’re not talking about many abortions in the first place, and hospitals and clinics really don’t do them that late on an elective basis. Do you have proof that Tiller et al really do abortions in the third trimester just because the money is paid?
Doug
Jacqu,
“That’s not my argument at all. I think we have to be clear that we’re not accepting IVF. We don’t accept IVF.”
Yes, of course. That goes without saying.
“It must stop and those embryos must be given a chance (somehow) to grow and live.”
This is the part that I don’t know how we can do, though.
“I don’t see are artificial womb as an answer- but just enabling more people to keep creating children with only a fraction of a chance for survival.”
Yes, this really is a major problem with the artificial womb argument. But like you said before, it seems there are problems with implanting an already existing embryo into a women. It sometimes seems like there is no morally permissible thing we can do with the IVF embryos.
“I am simply fed up with the way we treat children in this country. Fed. Up.”
I hear ya. God love you.
Okay, thanks Doug. So what am I thinking of? Did Casey vs. PP change any sort of thing that Roe had said? I don’t know law. God love you, Doug.
Bobby, Roe said “viability.” Don’t believe the people that say Roe only made abortion legal for the first trimester.
For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.
Casey may have nailed “viability” down to 24 weeks, and/or set up the definition of it as changeable with respect to medical technology. Not a big deal IMO since it’s only a 2 week difference. If the abortion debate is about those two weeks, then I say let’s pick something there, agree upon it, and be done with all the hand-wringing.
Dougster
I believe babies will eventually be viable in artificial wombs sometime in the next 30 years. What then, Planned Parenthood?
Jacqueline, then if somebody is willing to pay for them, take ’em out.
Doug
Hey Doug. So it’s there is argument over whether or not Roe allowed abortion for viability or first trimester? Hmmm.
“If the abortion debate is about those two weeks…”
No, that’s not it, at least for me. I just want to make sure that when I talk to people I’m saying true things. Very good. Thank you kindly.
I’m sick of the way we treat children in this country too. You know, denying them health care and stuff.
Seems like the republicans just want to get them out of the uterus and then, screw em.
Erin,
I’m sick of the way we treat children in this country too. You know, denying them life and stuff.
Seems like the Demorats just want to kill them in the uterus and then, put them in the trash can.
Seems like the republicans just want to get them out of the uterus and then, screw em.
I’m no Republican, but what I’ve seen is that Republicans want to give health care to those economically-disadvantaged kids- but the Democrats want to screw over those poor kids by insisting of adding the middle-class kids, too.
Democrats are screwing over the children as pawns in their universal health care agenda. Not the Republicans.
@SoMG,
very hard to define magnetism as radiation or force or whatever. This site http://www.cheniere.org say that here are over 250 known properties top magnetism and less than 20 are well understood!
The intimacy of magnetic energies and growth can be read in Robert O. Becker’s ‘Cross Currents’. After I read that the body is capable of aligning chemicals to produce magnetic flow … something like it arranges neurons to facilitate electric flow, and that there are meridians http://www.photonstimulator.com and that there are all kinds of ways that our bodies use a whole range of energies, shifting chemicals to entertain special magnetic flow seems almost logical, but not entertained by modern medicine.
So, am I to conclude that since modern medicine does not acknowledge this, then IT DOES NOT HAPPEN? I much prefer to think of modern medical practice as determined ignorance or abortionist (pretending to be current), as stupid executioners. (Did I say you are on a duck farm?)
John – yeah – there is the electromagnetic spectrum, but not everything is totally understood, like gravity.
Is it true that gravity is a deadly sin?
Doug
John McDonell, you appear to be a genuine babbling idiot. Unfortunately not rare here.
John McDonell, you appear to be a genuine babbling idiot. Unfortunately not rare here.
Posted by: SoMG at October 19, 2007 9:50 PM**************************** Somg, Not rare here? As long as you’re here, that is correct!