Abortionist Alberto Hodari to speak at Wayne State Friday
Hm. A late-term abortionist speaking at a “lunchtime seminar.” Doesn’t sound digestionally conducive to me.
But of all who could stomach it, I expect it would be Medical Students for Choice, the group sponsoring abortionist Alberto Hodari Friday at Wayne State University:
“Proud”? Well, I guess only future abortionists would be proud of Dr. Hodari’s bloody trail of deaths, hemorrhages, hysterectomies, and, of course, drawn and quartered late-term babies.
Can you see me raising my hand in cyberspace to ask some questions of Dr. Hodari?
1. Dr. Hodari, can you explain the partial birth abortion procedure you recently argued in favor of? You said the passage of the PBA Ban forced abortionists to commit more dangerous procedures. What exactly are those? And how can abortion possibly be dangerous in safe, legal hands like yours?
2. Dr. Hodari, would you care to provide details of the abortion you committed on 15-year-old, 6 months pregnant Tamiia Russell on January 7, 2004, that resulted in her death by infection and hemmorhage? And I thought minor abortions without parental consent were illegal? Yet she got this one secretly. Did you report she had been statutorily raped by her 24-year-old boyfriend, Stacy Glenn?
There are many others, but I don’t want to monopolize Q&A. Also found this:
Yes, future abortionists, you’re right that “you won’t get this kind of education in class,” because, of course, abortionists are bottom-feeding losers who didn’t pay attention in class.
[HT: Students for Life of America, which has also established a petition opposing Hodari’s appearance. If he does show, I’d love to hear the place was stacked with pro-lifers.]
UPDATE, 3:50p: I’d like to type the names of WSU’s Med Students for Choice in case any friends, family, dating prospects, job prospects, etc., ever google them. In that case this article will pop up and they’ll know exactly what sort of person they’re dealing with. They are: Kia Jones, Jonathan Oakes, Katie O’Connell, and Cynthia Velting-Kidder.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Oh geez. I’m going to have to dig out my list of corrupt abortionists for this one. It seems appropriate.
It is interesting that we would allow baby murderers and dictators to speak at college campuses influencing the impressionable college crowd..but if somebody wanted to speak that actually had morals/values…nope. We don’t want you to offend people with your “values.”
Can I just say OH MY GOSH!
Where is Laura?????
She usually is first at discrediting every single thread Jill starts.
Where is the unsited information to back up her snide offensive contradictive comments ???
Oh, that’s right. Maybe she’s not back from her run to Denny’s parking lot run yet. Let’s give her a few more minutes.
Laura doesn’t even chime in to this debate and you decide to pre-emptively attack?
No substance, just “snide offensive contradictive” label to throw around?
Is that consisent with Jill’s terms of use?
(I can’t be too critical, I used to do the same to Hisman, just for laughs)
Wow Jill, Thats really low and immature. Posting the students names on this website so that if people google them they “will know exactly what kind of people they are” Since when do you know ANYTHING about any of those students other than they belong to a club you disagree with. Wow… I am starting to remember why I left this site for a little while. perhaps I should leave again.
JM
I don’t see what is so low and immature about exposing the truth about people. If they are doing nothing wrong and “choice” is okay then they have nothing to fear about their names being published. Makes you wonder why they would have a problem with that….
JM
I think its immature and low.
I’m grateful. I certainly don’t want to be treated by someone that is fine with killing his/her patients.
Yes I would be okay with that. Because they she can really find out if they are “horrible people”
“I’m grateful. I certainly don’t want to be treated by someone that is fine with killing his/her patients.”
Honest question here…. do you have a list of questions you ask the doctor before you start to go to him/her? If so what kind of questions? I’m curious
JM, you’ve got to be kidding. “Immature”? You have no clue what this is all about. You sit there fluttering your hands and whining about “choice.” For us this is life and death. Hardball, my friend. And what’s to be ashamed of?
To be fair, these abortionists are screwing up women’s reproductive systems, molesting women, killing women, failing to report the child molestation of young girls, and maiming women, yet we still have PLENTY of women who chant “ABORTION!” “Keep abortions safe and legal.” ..more, more, more! You guys actually WANT this to stay legal??
Coincidentally, yesterday that bastion of liberalism, the New York Times, carried what I thought was an even-handed article about another abortion provider, Dr. Susan Wicklund, who only does 1st trimester procedures. If I have a daughter who, despite precautions, gets herself knocked up before she is ready to take on parenting, this is the kind of woman I would hope to be able to take her to.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/health/06abor.html
(registration required)
Wow Jill, Thats really low and immature.
JM, Jill is not known for her tact, and frequently makes statements that keep things lively around here, but undermine her credibility as a journalist.
Also, we have plenty of men on the same bandwagon. Hal, I wonder how you would be feeling about “choice” had your wife been injured during her 2 abortions.
I just find it frustrating that you assume they are horrible people because they’re pro-choice. “they’ll know exactly what sort of person they’re dealing with” You know nothing about these people except they are in a club you don’t like.
Honest question here…. do you have a list of questions you ask the doctor before you start to go to him/her? If so what kind of questions? I’m curious
I have a Catholic NFP-only OBGYN, so that pretty much sewed that up.
JM…this is Jill’s site she can post whatever she wants to post really. And you still didn’t answer my question. If “choice” is so okay why would those people have a problem with other people knowing about it? I’ll ask again..maybe you’ll answer this time..
“Hal, I wonder how you would be feeling about “choice” had your wife been injured during her 2 abortions.”
Of course I would have felt terrible if she were injured, whether during an abortion, or a delivery, or a car accident or struck by lightening. I wouldn’t feel any worse becuase it was an abortion. I do advise picking doctors carefully, for any procedure.
JM…this is Jill’s site she can post whatever she wants to post really. And you still didn’t answer my question. If “choice” is so okay why would those people have a problem with other people knowing about it? I’ll ask again..maybe you’ll answer this time..
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 4:32 PM
……………………………….
What evidence do you have that says that these people have any problem with themselves being identified as PC through their names being published on a blog?
Honestly, you’re probably right. Its the approach jill is using that I find frustrating. That she is assuming they aren’t good people or that they don’t have any good qualities. What happens if 3, 5 or 6 years from now these people change their mind? They decide they are pro-life and people “google” them?
Hey, for all we know Jill will change her mind and be pro-choice in 3, 5, or 6 years and have a whole bunch of stuff on the internet she has to explain.
“Hey, for all we know Jill will change her mind and be pro-choice in 3, 5, or 6 years and have a whole bunch of stuff on the internet she has to explain.”
Haha thats pretty funny.
JM,
If these students didn’t want their names to be associated with this “seminar” then they shouldn’t placed them on the flyer.
In today’s world information goes everywhere. Students especially know that.
I also question their decision to have this scum bag as a speaker. Even in the abortion world I would think this guy has to be the bottom of the barrel. Did they not do their research?? Ask questions before they booked this total loser?
If this is the best they could do. Your side is in real trouble.
I wonder if he will address the issues of killing and/or maiming 23 patients and then having to deal with the legal “mess” and families afterwards.
Probably not.
Jill, the students inviting Hodari to talk have spent their lives being brainwashed about what “heroes” abortionists are. It probably never occurred to them that it’s even possible for a nice, safe, legal abortionist to be guilty of quackery, much less performing an illegal 3rd trimsester abortion on a sexual abuse victim then letting her die.
We need to be praying for them, that learning what kind of man Hodari really is will jolt them into re-examining many of the lies they’ve been fed about abortion by those trying to recruit them as killers.
Sandy, I wonder if he’ll bring that up. I doubt it. He will probably drone on about “women’s health” and what not. “abortion is necessary.” You know the drill……….
“I wonder if he will address the issues of killing and/or maiming 23 patients and then having to deal with the legal “mess” and families afterwards.”
I am sure there will be a time when people can ask questions. But I am also guessing no anti-choice people will go to ask such questions.
I’d be interested to see complete statistics on Hodari, not just a few anecdotal incidents. If we are talking 20 deaths in 20 years out of thousands or tens of thousands of procedures, then that sounds safer than many other surgical procedures out there. Late term abortions are inherently more risky, which is one reason why, if a woman is determined to get one, she should be able to right away, when it is much safer. Anti-abortion delaying tactics end up endangering her life.
JM…this is Jill’s site she can post whatever she wants to post really. And you still didn’t answer my question. If “choice” is so okay why would those people have a problem with other people knowing about it? I’ll ask again..maybe you’ll answer this time..
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 4:32 PM
I don’t think that “those people” have a problem with being known as PC. I know that I don’t. I think that what JM’s problem with Jill’s posting of their names (and JM is free to correct me if I am wrong) is that Jill’s purpose for posting their names (and in one case, email) seems to be for harassment only…..which is low and immature.
Joy Davis, who worked for years as assistant to infamous Alabama/Mississippi abortionist Tommy Tucker, finally left and blew the whistle on him (amid death threats from him) to the Medical Boards in those states after realizing that legal abortion was not helping woman, but hurting them.
She was asked at a subsequent job interview for another medical position, “Were you so hard that you could do THAT for 14 years?”. There is a pretty large turnover among the lower-paid staff (that is, those ranking lower than the abortionist, owner and director of the deathcamp) because they tend to either become so hard that they are openly calloused and abusive towards the women and are fired, or, if they retain normal human sensibilities, they can’t stand what they are involved in and quit. There are other factors, too; though there is camaraderie, there is no more honor among killers than there is among thieves.
So yes, with all the suffering there already is in the world, it definitely says something about a person who deliberately chooses to abuse their medical education in a profession that takes human life instead of seeking to preserve it, and one that has been proven to increase injury, suffering and disease. It says something that is not good, and that people deserve to be warned of before placing their own lives/health in their bloody hands. It is certainly an insult to people suffering from far worse things than a normal, healthy, functioning reproductive system to reject their needs in order to put other healthy people in jeopardy.
If they are good people, then reading Jill’s exposes of Hodari’s actual history ought to turn them around; if they change their minds much later on, well, they will be getting off a lot lighter than many other serial killers.
Is it just me, or has practically EVERYONE on this site, myself included, been a massive jerk today? What the h-e-double-hockey-sticks is going on with us?
Letter 268
Once again, pro-choicers have dragged out the old lie about illegal abortions being done by “back-alley butchers.”
Since there are plenty of filthy legal abortion mills, we can assume that there were at least some filthy illegal abortion mills. But they were hardly the norm.
The Search for an Abortionist found that over 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by doctors.
In his book Babies by Choice or by Chance, published in 1959, Planned Parenthood’s own Alan Guttmacher wrote, “The technique of the well-accredited criminal abortionist is usually good. They have to be good to stay in business, since otherwise they would be extremely vulnerable to police action.”
A Woman’s Book of Choices says, “Sympathetic doctors readily used any excuse, no matter how flimsy, to do what came in late pre-Roe days to be called ‘therapeutic abortions.'”
Many of these so-called “therapeutic abortions” killed women, but that wasn’t because abortion was illegal. It was because abortion is dangerous. We should restore criminal status, and once again put abortionists who kill women in jail, where they belong.
Letter 269
Pro-choicers continue to use the old lie that illegal abortions killed 5,000 to 10,000 women every year.
Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of the National Abortion Rights Action League, said, “I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose others did too if they stopped to think of it. But in the ?morality’ of the revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics. The overriding concern was to get the laws eliminated, and anything within reason which had to be done was permissible.”
Abortion guru Christopher Tietze called the 10,000 number “unmitigated nonsense.”
Planned Parenthood’s medical director, Mary Calderone, put the number at under 300 a year.
Granted, even one death is one too many. But you have to question the logic of people who would look at a criminal activity, observe that it kills women, and declare that the activity should be legalized.
Letter 270
Pro-abortion activists claim that if abortion is illegal, “women will be forced to go to back-alley butchers.”
First of all, in the U.S., the law never held a gun to any woman’s head and forced her to have an abortion. Abortion was more of a choice when it was illegal and it was harder for family, boyfriends, and social workers to browbeat women into it.
But more important is the lie about the “back-alley butchers.”
Pro-choice writings are full of stories of how women and doctors lied and finagled to evade abortion laws. Reporting fake rapes, feigning mental illness, and claiming to be having a miscarriage are encouraged among women. Dishonest doctors have even more options. One gynecologist reportedly told the authors of A Woman’s Book of Choices that if abortion became illegal, he would “do a lot more endometrial biopsies,” which the authors translated as, “he will do abortions under the guise of diagnostic procedures. He also noted that many of his colleagues had expressed similar intentions.”
This is the kind of behavior abortion advocates find admirable: not only evading the law, but stealing from insurance companies!
Are we to write our laws based on the whims of such a dishonest bunch? If anything, we should tighten up fraud laws to make it harder to get away with such stunts. These people should be ashamed of themselves. But if they aren’t ashamed of being abortionists, I guess it’s unreasonable to expect them to be ashamed of lying and cheating.
Is it just me, or has practically EVERYONE on this site, myself included, been a massive jerk today? What the h-e-double-hockey-sticks is going on with us?
I know! I SUCK!
Oh, it’s not just you, Jacque. I’ve been snippy and rude, TexasRed…well, she was TexasRed, jasper has his meanie-pants on, Sandy is making preemptive attacks against Laura…Maybe we’ve all been on this site together so long, we’re starting to cycle together. Who else is enjoying their PMS right now? Cause I am…
No PMS for me tonight. We all have our bad days though:} And that’s okay.
Abortion doctor gets 34 years for sex abuse of patients
Jan. 2, 2004 11:10 AM
Jurors in the Brian Finkel case deliberated for 14 days before returning a mixed verdict.
Brian Finkel, a once prominent Phoenix abortion doctor, was sentenced to more than 34 years in prison Friday for sexually abusing patients over a span of nearly two decades in his high-profile practice.
Finkel was also ordered to register as a sex offender and placed on lifetime probation should he serve out his 34? -year prison sentence.
A jury convicted the 54-year-old physician last month on 22 counts of sex abuse. It also acquitted him of 34 more counts, including six of the more serious charges of sexual assault.
The sentencing comes after three months of emotion-packed testimony from 32 victims who said the doctor pinched their breasts, or kissed or fondled them during examinations. He denied the charges.
Jurors deliberated 15 days before reaching their verdict. They refused to talk about how they reached the verdict.
Finkel, who performed more than 30,000 abortions over the past 20 years, had become a national figure in the 1990s. He often appeared on network talk shows denouncing the growing violence of abortion protesters, who he compared to terrorists. He wore a bullet-proof vest and patrolled his Phoenix abortion clinic with a gun, saying they were necessary to protect himself and his clients from attacks.
JM Wrote: I am sure there will be a time when people can ask questions. But I am also guessing no anti-choice people will go to ask such questions.
This begs the question as to why the proabort crowd would not ask the hard questions. They know it is killing a baby but why not ask about the harm done to the mothers, especially in the 23 cases that were litigated?
12/19/2005
Sen. Barbara Boxer Demands Immediate Suspension of Abortionist’s License
Operation Rescue Applauds Boxer’s Effort to Stop Laurence Reich
PANORAMA CITY, Calif., Dec. 19 /Christian Wire Service/ — Senator Barbara Boxer, known for her rabidly pro-abortion views, has demanded that the Osteopathic Medical Board of California immediately suspend the license of Abortionist Laurence Reich.
In a strongly worded letter, Boxer referred to a recent CNN report about Reich that detailed Reich’s criminal past as a sexual predator, but failed to mention that he is an abortionist.
“I never thought I would agree with Barbara Boxer on anything, but I whole-heartedly support her demand for the immediate suspension of abortionist Laurence Reich’s license in the interest of public safety,” said Operation Rescue President Troy Newman. “If someone like Sen. Boxer can see that this abortionist is a danger to the community, you know he must be a very dangerous man.”
Operation Rescue reported on October 31, 2005, that Reich, a frequent focus of Operation Rescue demonstrations, had been convicted of sexually molesting his patients in 2002, but three years later the Osteopathic Medical Board still had not decided upon appropriate discipline. Reich had previously been convicted of sexually abusing his patients in incidents stemming back to the 1970s and was placed on 10 years probation, which was completed in 1994.
Reich is listed as the “medical director” for a small chain of Southern California abortion mills called Clinica Medica Para La Mujer De Hoy. According to the owner of the abortion mills, Bertha Bugarin, the chain targets women in the Hispanic community.
“We believe that Reich has found that the Hispanic Community is the perfect stalking grounds for his sexual attacks,” said OR spokesperson Cheryl Sullenger, who has followed Reich’s nefarious career and lodged complaints against him. “Women who may be in the U.S. illegally are especially vulnerable to exploitation because they are less likely to report a man like him to the authorities. We applaud Senator Boxer’s efforts to stop Reich from further exploiting women.”
June 7, 2002 — Abortuary loses ruling (The Philadelphia Inquirer) — Abortion chain abortionist Steven Brigham lost the license at his King of Prussia abortion mill due to zoning violations. Brigham lost his medical licenses in New York and Florida for botched abortions, and spent three weeks in early 2000 in a New York prison for failing to pay business taxes.
I sent young Mr. Oakes an email, telling him that I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he asked NAF for a speaker, they provided Hodari, and he bought NAF’s claims that all their members are excellent, caring doctors. I told him about how half the seedy abortion mills that got shut down recently in Alabama were NAF members. I told him about Abu Hayat, “The Butcher of Avenue A”, who killed a teenage patient, ripped the arm off a 32-week fetus in an abortion attempt that ended in a live birth, and sexually abused his paitents — but who was nevertheless good enough for NAF.
We need to pray, pray, pray that these kids feel deeply betrayed that they were told this guy was a good doctor, an admirable role model. We need to pray that they’ll be appalled at what kind of doctor he really is, and that they’ll start questioning everything NAF tells them.
Pro-Lifers Charge Abortionists More Prone to Crime
By Dawn Rizzoni
CNSNews.com Correspondent
January 21, 2002
(CNSNews.com) – A Texas pro-life activist says he has collected eight thousand examples over the last decade of abortionists participating in criminal activity, including sexual assault, sexual harassment, even murder.
Mark Crutcher, founder and president of Life Dynamics, says he hopes that by sharing his information, he can “better educate the public on the evils surrounding abortion.” Tuesday marks the 29th anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion in the United States.
Through television appearances, books, public speaking engagements, and articles, Crutcher uses his files as a public education tool. He also runs an Internet site, ClinicWorker.com, that encourages abortion clinic workers to report possible crimes before being implicated themselves.
Crutcher focuses not only on the act of abortion, “but also the kind of people involved, and the things that happen to women who enter these clinics.”
One high-profile case involves Arizona abortionist Brian Finkle, who is scheduled to go on trial in August for allegedly sexually assaulting nine of his patients. After Finkle was arrested last October, roughly 80 women came forward to accuse the doctor of sexual misconduct.
The case involving Oklahoma abortionist John Hamilton has also attracted a lot of publicity. Hamilton was sentenced Jan. 9 to life in prison without parole for the Valentine’s Day 2001 murder of his wife Susan, who was beaten and strangled.
“When you’re a medical person, you know what you’re doing when you take a human life (through abortion),” Crutcher said. “And if you can do that, there’s not much else you won’t do.”
However, a representative from the National Abortion Federation (NAF) insisted, “The history of violence clearly lies on the side of those against choice.”
The NAF keeps track of the violence targeting abortionists and abortion clinics. According to the group’s Web site, seven “abortion providers” have been murdered in America since 1993. The most recent of these is New York Dr. Barnett Slepian, who was shot and killed in his home in 1998. The NAF also lists seventeen cases of attempted murder since 1991 and 41 bombing incidents since 1977, all targeting “abortion providers.”
The NAF representative refused to identify herself and requests for more reaction to Crutcher’s findings were ignored. Telephone calls seeking comment from the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League also were not returned.
British Columbia Psychiatrist Philip Ney said he has worked with former abortionists who admitted that something inside of them changed for the worse after performing abortions. “There’s an instinctual restraint in humans that keeps them from harming a helpless child. If that restraint is damaged, it becomes easier to hurt other people,” Ney said.
A common crime committed by abortionists, Crutcher said, is the sexual assault of patients. He dedicated a chapter in his pro-life book Lime 5 to the issue, documenting dozens of cases in which abortionists sexually violated women.
But tracking all instances of sexual assault by abortionists is impossible, Crutcher said, since there are many “clandestine” doctors who perform abortions as part of their regular ob-gyn practice without the public’s knowledge. Also, many rapes go unreported, especially if the woman has something to hide like an abortion, he said.
According to Crutcher, teenage patients are easy prey for abortionists who know their victims are unlikely to speak out about the crime.
“If your morals and human instincts are so corrupted that you can kill an unborn human baby, sex with a 15-year-old girl isn’t a big deal,” he said.
Another group, Operation Rescue of Boston, also maintains a record of abortionists involved in criminal activity. One abortionist on their list, Daniel Holschauer, was found to have been involved in sexual misconduct, harassment, stalking, extortion and drug abuse in a study by the New York State Department of Health.
The California Right to Life organization also issued an “Abortion Crime Report” that listed incidents such as murder, kidnapping, rape, stalking, death threats and more, committed by abortionists. One former abortionist on their list, Ivan Namihas, was charged with four incidents of rape, 45 incidents of sexual abuse, gross negligence and mail fraud.
A spokesperson for the American Medical Association said the organization knew of no studies comparing the number of crimes committed by abortionists with the number of crimes committed by doctors in other fields.
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Who else is enjoying their PMS right now? Cause I am…
No PMS for me. My cycle must have stopped because of my wife’s pregnancy. ;)
“I wonder if he will address the issues of killing and/or maiming 23 patients and then having to deal with the legal “mess” and families afterwards.”
?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If he does, he will probably deal with it the way it’s generally dealt with at NAF conferences, where damage control is an ever-popular hot topic. As a rule, the focus is not on medically preventing damage to the women, but legally controlling damages to the killers’ bank accounts and reputations. Years ago, Warren Hern was literally booed off the stage for encouraging his colleagues to “practice responsible medicine” to avoid damages to the women. It was a defining moment for him, as he has since “wised up” and reevaluated his priorities accordingly…
So chopping babies up is high and mature, and warning others of the homicidal tendencies of documented killers/wannabes is not? I don’t know that I’ve ever encountered any of you PCers personally, but if I ever see any of you/yours approached by someone with designs on you similar to those of Hodari towards “unplanned” preborn children, I’ll try to keep your preferences in mind and stay out of it. Wouldn’t want to do anything that someone might consider “low and immature”…but surely you’ll pardon me if I slip up and the word “DUCK!” is out of my mouth before I can stop myself?!
Ray, don’t be too quick to blame pro-life delay tactics for endangering the lives of women. One sidewalk counselor I know once dissuaded a woman from getting a scheduled, early term abortion by sharing with her an article written by the bereaved mother of another woman who had died at home within hours of her “safe, legal” abortion at the hands of the abortionist she had scheduled to kill her baby. Several weeks later, that woman returned to thank that sidewalk counselor for saving her life.
SAY WHAT??? Turned out that after she left the deathmill, she went to a real doctor who discovered, and told her, that she had an ectopic pregnancy. Had she gone through with the scheduled abortion, the abortionist would have simply taken his fee, scraped tissue from her womb and told her that she was no longer pregnant…in that order, of course. Then the undetected pregnancy would have burst, most likely killing her.
Other studies have shown abortion to be 4 times more dangerous than childbirth, and that there are few, if any, conditions through which modern medical technology in the right hands cannot safely bring a pregnant woman and her child.
Alan Guttmacher, former president of Planned Parenthood, admitted this in 1987, saying,
“Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal disease such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save the life of the mother.”
Interestingly, he did not make any gestational age qualifiers to this statement…
Here are a few posts about legal abortion. See the truth. Think the back ally days are over with? Nope. These are the front ally days. We just legalized the criminal activity.
RAAAAAYYYY, your wife is pregnant??? Congratulations! When did you find out?:}
Ray, is this your first baby?
Well, the people Jill listed MAY or MAY NOT have a problem with her posting their names. And that seems to be why JM addressed it saying it was low or immature. But okay, I’ll rephrase what I was saying: If hypothetically they did have a problem with their names being posted, WHY would that be if abortion/”choice” is so okay?? I don’t presume to know but JM approached it as they would have a problem with it. I personally don’t care who posts my name all over pro-life stuff really. If any one decides to harrass me personally because of it, I would call the cops. That is how it works. Somebody harrasses you, you call the cops. People who are REALLY being harrassed that is. Not people just claiming to be so that they can make the PLer’s look bad.
I think that if Jill ever has to “‘splain” a change in her position on baby-killing to a baffled readership, she will have to wait her turn while the novelty of flying pigs and hell freezing dies down…by which time, most people won’t be listening.
Ray, he did an illegal third-trimester abortion on a sexual abuse victim, at the behest of her abuser’s sister, after the girl had been turned away from every other abortion facility in the city. This wasn’t some unforseeable and unavoidable complication of a responsibly performed abortion.
Oh, it’s not just you, Jacque. I’ve been snippy and rude, TexasRed…well, she was TexasRed, jasper has his meanie-pants on, Sandy is making preemptive attacks against Laura…Maybe we’ve all been on this site together so long, we’re starting to cycle together. Who else is enjoying their PMS right now? Cause I am…
Posted by: Erin at November 7, 2007 5:16 PM
…………………….
I’m in peri-menopause and am free of the mood swings and hot flashes today. Woo hoo!
Sally, good to hear. I guess you and I are both in good shape tonight.
Heather, thanks for posting the rare exception — the high-profile prochoicer who actually applauded the punishment of a seedy abortionist. Though rank-and-file prochoice citizens tend to be appalled by these guys, the movers and shakers of the movement tend to gloss over even the most appalling behavior, or to even make excuses for it.
June 7, 2002 — Abortuary loses ruling (The Philadelphia Inquirer) — Abortion chain abortionist Steven Brigham lost the license at his King of Prussia abortion mill due to zoning violations. Brigham lost his medical licenses in New York and Florida for botched abortions, and spent three weeks in early 2000 in a New York prison for failing to pay business taxes.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 5:29 PM
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This article is so old it cannot be found on the Philadelphia Inquirer website and therefore cannot be verified for accuracy. You’ve copied it from and anti-choice sight.
Christina, You’re welcome. Anything I can do to help. I know that these posts are redundant, but with the new comers, I feel it’s important for them to see them too. If I put them up there, they will be read. Before I bought a computer, I had no idea that there was this much corruption in the abortion industry.
I agree with JM. Posting the names of pro-choice medical students on this website just to harass them is childish, not to mention she broke her own posting rules according to MK.
The names were on the flyer, yes, but those cannot be cycled around like it can on the the Web.
It reminds me of Chris Crocker (LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!) having a disagreement with someone on youtube then encouraging his fans to harass that person.
Anonymous, what difference does it make where it was found? Are you saying it’s BS?
Abortion doctor gets 34 years for sex abuse of patients
Jan. 2, 2004 11:10 AM
Jurors in the Brian Finkel case deliberated for 14 days before returning a mixed verdict.
Brian Finkel, a once prominent Phoenix abortion doctor, was sentenced to more than 34 years in prison Friday for sexually abusing patients over a span of nearly two decades in his high-profile practice.
Finkel was also ordered to register as a sex offender and placed on lifetime probation should he serve out his 34? -year prison sentence.
A jury convicted the 54-year-old physician last month on 22 counts of sex abuse. It also acquitted him of 34 more counts, including six of the more serious charges of sexual assault.
The sentencing comes after three months of emotion-packed testimony from 32 victims who said the doctor pinched their breasts, or kissed or fondled them during examinations. He denied the charges.
Jurors deliberated 15 days before reaching their verdict. They refused to talk about how they reached the verdict.
Finkel, who performed more than 30,000 abortions over the past 20 years, had become a national figure in the 1990s. He often appeared on network talk shows denouncing the growing violence of abortion protesters, who he compared to terrorists. He wore a bullet-proof vest and patrolled his Phoenix abortion clinic with a gun, saying they were necessary to protect himself and his clients from attacks.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 5:23 PM
…………………………………….
Here’s another oh so verifiable article for you:
O.J. CONFESSES: ‘I GOT AWAY WITH MURDER – I’LL WALK AWAY FROM THIS’
“I got away with murder – I can get away with this.” With those words, O.J. Simpson assured his friends that he’ll beat a kidnapping and armed robbery rap in Las Vegas, The ENQUIRER has learned exclusively.
“O.J. doesn’t think he is to blame,” a source close to the 60-year-old disgraced gridiron great told The ENQUIRER.
“He keeps saying: ‘This case is nothing compared to the last one. I’ll walk from this a free man
Sally, he said the same thing on CNN. Are they in on the conspiracy?
On another post Enigma brought something up that made my “lightbulb” go off…
She says that nobody has the right to use another persons body, therefore the woman, who did not consent to pregnancy, has the right to take the childs life.
Let’s pretend for a moment that that is true.
What then, gives a third party the right to take that life. She referred to them as the “agent”…
I can understand (tho vehemently disagree with) the argument that it is HER body and she should have control over it.
It reminded me of that Shakespeare thing where the guy owes a pound of flesh? And his “lawyer” says he the other guy can have his “flesh” when he figures out how to get it without taking any blood. Obviously, the guy gets to keep his flesh.
Well, it seems to me that since the only one whose rights are being violated in an unwanted pregnancy is the mothers (remember, we’re pretending to agree here, so the babies rights don’t count for now), why does the “agent” who performs the abortion get a free pass. Seems to me that the women herself should be the only one with the “right” to abort her child. This would make the “agent/abortion doctor” a murderer, since HIS rights are NOT being violated…see where I’m coming from?
What do you think?
Well, the people Jill listed MAY or MAY NOT have a problem with her posting their names. And that seems to be why JM addressed it saying it was low or immature. But okay, I’ll rephrase what I was saying: If hypothetically they did have a problem with their names being posted, WHY would that be if abortion/”choice” is so okay?? I don’t presume to know but JM approached it as they would have a problem with it. I personally don’t care who posts my name all over pro-life stuff really. If any one decides to harrass me personally because of it, I would call the cops. That is how it works. Somebody harrasses you, you call the cops. People who are REALLY being harrassed that is. Not people just claiming to be so that they can make the PLer’s look bad.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 5:38 PM
………………………………….
I agree. I wouldn’t find it harrassment to have my name posted. Now if defamation of character was the intention, well, Jill doesn’t even know these people. But Jill is welcome to track down my phone number and call me any time. No problem!
Well, the people Jill listed MAY or MAY NOT have a problem with her posting their names. And that seems to be why JM addressed it saying it was low or immature. But okay, I’ll rephrase what I was saying: If hypothetically they did have a problem with their names being posted, WHY would that be if abortion/”choice” is so okay?? I don’t presume to know but JM approached it as they would have a problem with it. I personally don’t care who posts my name all over pro-life stuff really. If any one decides to harrass me personally because of it, I would call the cops. That is how it works. Somebody harrasses you, you call the cops. People who are REALLY being harrassed that is. Not people just claiming to be so that they can make the PLer’s look bad.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 5:38 PM
In response to your first question, I would speculate that the people in question probably have no problem with being known as pro-choice. As noted, I’m speculating, but since they are sponsoring a pro-choice event, I think it’s a pretty solid speculation.
On the other hand, I think that they, as well as anyone who isn’t busy trying to justify harassment, would object to their names being published for the sole purpose of harassing them.
And maybe I am misreading the last part of your post, but it seems as though you are saying that harassment is A-OK with you, because the victim can always call the cops. That seems a little…odd.
Another Former Staffer Testifies Against Abortionist Brian Finkel
by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
September 9, 2003
Phoenix, AZ (LifeNews.com) — The trial of abortion practitioner Brian Finkel continues, despite the lack of media coverage outside Phoenix about it. Finkel has been charged with 67 counts of sexually abusing 35 women since 1986 during exams and abortions.
The second week of testimony in the trial began Monday. The first week featured women who accused Finkel of touching their breasts and sexual organs during exams and a former employee of Finkel’s who asked him to stop touching women’s inappropriately.
So far 15 of the 55 people the prosecution plans to call have testified.
Members of Finkel’s staff at the abortion business feared reprisals and kept information about the abuses to themselves.
On Monday another former staff member testified that Finkel frequently inappropriate touched women’s reproductive anatomy and fondled their breasts. Rene Imrisck also said she grew tired of Finkel’s crude remarks
She urged one woman to contact the police following Finkel’s abuse of her. The woman said Finkel jerked her hard down into the stirrups.
Imrisck says Finkel made rude comments about one woman’s bra size and concluded by saying, “I really know my breasts.”
She also said she refused Finkel’s request to touch another patient’s breast, telling him, “I didn’t want to do that.”
Attorney Richard Gierloff, who is representing Finkel, has developed a defense strategy that relies on finding inconsistencies in the testimony women gave to investigators in depositions and what they say on the stand.
Gierloff got Imrisck to tell him that the woman in question has told Finkel she was having problems with a breast implant.
He also pointed out that one woman, a 39 year-old from the Phoenix suburb of Scottsdale, originally told police Finkel fondled her breasts once. During the trial, she said he touched them twice, and Gierloff quickly asked her about the differing accounts.
“That makes it so much better if it says just one,” the woman growled in response.
Gierloff is also asking the jury to decide what is inappropriate.
“What’s improper,” defense attorney Richard Gierloff said. “That’s what a lot of this question is about.”
Finkel claims it is necessary to touch women’s private parts during some exam procedures. However, a Colorado woman said other doctors never touched her the same way or squeezed her nipples during breast exams as Finkel did.
Many of the women who say Finkel abused them never came forward.
“The criminal conduct in this case was kept secret by many of these women for many, many years,” said deputy Maricopa County attorney Blaine Gadow.
Finkel was responsible for performing approximately 20 percent of the abortions done in Arizona.
Jacquie,
You deserted me on that other post! I put up a video that I REALLY want you to watch.
No, Carol, I am saying that IF that were to ever happen…I would PERSONALLY call the cops..and so would anyone that feels they are being harrassed. My last statement reflects the fact that many PCer’s are dishonest about saying that PLer’s harrass them. Because if I were being harrassed, I would have called the cops, filed a report, and done everything necessary to curtail the harrassment, meaning, I don’t believe most PCer’s when they say they are being “harrassed.”
Elizabeth, I’m with you. It’s exaggerated.
No, Carol, I am saying that IF that were to ever happen…I would PERSONALLY call the cops..and so would anyone that feels they are being harrassed. My last statement reflects the fact that many PCer’s are dishonest about saying that PLer’s harrass them. Because if I were being harrassed, I would have called the cops, filed a report, and done everything necessary to curtail the harrassment, meaning, I don’t believe most PCer’s when they say they are being “harrassed.”
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 6:08 PM
Ok. I guess I just don’t understand what your personal feelings about what you would do if you were harassed have to do with whether you actually object to people doing things with the intention of harassing others.
Regarding the posting of the names of members of Medical Students for Choice:
That’s how the organization got started. Right-to-lifers sent threats to med students, so the med students started MSfC and ended the possibility of an abortion-provider shortage forever.
Good going, RTLs!
I just can’t imagine someone going to medical school for the purpose of becoming an abortionist. Has anyone ever heard of someone saying that?
I have a friend who’s a nurse and she married a doctor (general family practice) and I was asking if it would bother her to get calls in the night from patients. I said I always thought that a dermatologist would be the only doctor I’d marry; I mean how many “emergencies” could they have other than a zit on someone’s wedding day, right? Then she said “Right, until he has to take care of someone
Yes, Kristin, I know a med student who went to med school specifically in order to do abortions.
SoMG, I’m not trying to insult your friend but I just really think that’s such a waste. I know PCs don’t think that but, gosh, I just think it’s really sad.
Anonymous, what difference does it make where it was found? Are you saying it’s BS?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 5:55 PM
Hard to tell without verifiable sources.
Sally, good to hear. I guess you and I are both in good shape tonight.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 5:45 PM
………………………….
: )
Sally, he said the same thing on CNN. Are they in on the conspiracy?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 6:00 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, Heather, he never did. You’ve also been known to manufacture quotes.
Ray, he did an illegal third-trimester abortion on a sexual abuse victim, at the behest of her abuser’s sister, after the girl had been turned away from every other abortion facility in the city.
So if he broke the law, he should be prosecuted. I have no problem with that. But when you take a few anecdotally bad abortion doctors and use them to condemn the entire industry, you are being dishonest. Lots of plastic surgeons are convicted of maiming or killing their patients, but you don’t assume that all plastic surgeons are unscrupulous or evil.
Heather, our first is due in less than a month.
Sally, he said the same thing on CNN. Are they in on the conspiracy?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 6:00 PM
…………………
Please provide the link. Thank you.
“Heather, our first is due in less than a month.”
Thats awesome. You must be so excited. I can’t wait to have children. I am going to wait until I am ready though.
Kristin, I agree with you (!) that it is wasteful to take six years of training just to do abortions.
The requirement that only MDs (and equivalent degree holders, DOs for example) can do abortions is unnecessary and wasteful.
A nurse practicioner or physician’s assistant can easily be trained to do first-trimester abortions (manual suction, and medical abortions) safely and effectively.
As long as there’s an MD on call to deal with (rare) emergencies.
Kristin, I agree with you (!)
Posted by: SoMG at November 7, 2007 7:39 PM
OMGosh! Has someone checked hell? I think it might have frozen over! ;)
Now the REASONS we agree are, unfortunately very different. :(
“Heather, our first is due in less than a month.”
Thats awesome. You must be so excited. I can’t wait to have children. I am going to wait until I am ready though.
Posted by: JM at November 7, 2007 7:25 PM
…………………………..
Good luck! Doesn’t always work that way. Daughter is an oopsie. I wasn’t ready but got myself ready because I wanted to. Choice is a wonderfull thing.
Oh man, Ray, so exciting! We’re new dads together! My baby is due tomorrow!
“Good luck! Doesn’t always work that way. Daughter is an oopsie. I wasn’t ready but got myself ready because I wanted to. Choice is a wonderfull thing.”
I am well aware that I could get pregnant before I am ready. That is why I am taking precautions to prevent pregnancy. If I do happen to get pregnant before I am ready then yes “I will get ready real fast”
Bobby, I’m so excited for you. My brother’s birthday is tomorrow, my boss has a baby due tomorrow, and a neighbor is due the 9th!
Is your wife having any contractions?
Nah, not yet. In fact, we have a doctors appointment tomorrow, and we’re predicting she won’t even be dilated yet. We’ve predicated that she’ll have to be induced, which sucks.
I hate to tell you this but my first was 17 days late. I had an older doctor that kept saying “when she’s ready, she’ll let us know.”
I finally went into labor and after 4 hours of contractions I went to the hospital only to have it all stop. He was going to send me home but the nurses took pity on me and “helped” me. A little trick they showed me to help induce the labor, but totally natural – no drugs.
The other 5 were really induced which did suck. I can give you the tip but I’m not sure it’s “appropriate” to post. ;)
Wow, 17 days! They told my wife that they don’t let people go over a week now, so the baby will certainly be born by next Thursday. And I think I know which trick you’re talking about Kristen. I have no shame, so I’m just going to go ahead and ask; Is it anything more specific than simply engaging in the conjugal act and not committing Onanism?
“I can give you the tip but I’m not sure it’s “appropriate” to post. ;)”
Go to the video store, rent Friends season 9. Watch episode where Rachel is pregnant and past her due date. The doctor gave her the same recommendation that may not be appropriate to post. :)
I thought you might think that, but no. Try a little nipple stimulation. I don’t know the success rate if she hasn’t had ANY contractions but if she has even the slightest twinge that should get her going.
My sister had a baby 6 months ago and had a few contractions one day and then nothing for a couple days. She tried it and delivered within hours. The thing is YOU need to do it, not your wife. You wouldn’t mind that would you? ;)
Man, someone’s going to have to delete this XXX rated post!
For me, the nurses hooked me up to an industrial breast pump. Not quite as nice but it worked!
Kristen,
Thats interesting. I had never heard that before. huh. Learn something new everyday.
Ah, okay. Well, I think it goes without saying, but I am definitely interested in giving that a try. In fact, I should be home now trying that instead of grading tests, but hey. I think you’d all be very disappointed at how few people can differentiate e^32…
JM, believe me, after 17 days I tried everything! Long walks, big meal, what Bobby mentioned…all the old wives tales.
I also have a trick if your baby is breach (as 4 of mine were.) Works EVERY time and no horrible turning of the baby by pushing and twisting. It’s AMAZING!
Bobby, I don’t know what that (e^32) even means. I remember taking the ACT and looking at this problem “8!” I thought “What the H E LL?” Math AND grammar?
I kid you not, the next week in class I open my book and guess what we were learning… Oh, how I should have prepared. It was so EASY! Thank God there were other sections I did well on.
Carol, of course I object to real harrassment..that is..if I believe people are ACTUALLY being harrassed. And from what I’ve seen if there is actual harrassment one calls the police and files a report..not complains about it on the internet or on tv to discredit a whole group of people.
My wife has had a miserable pregnancy with nausea and arthritis, so we plan to start trying the natural induction techniques about a week before her due date.
“Math AND grammar?” LOL. Yeah, so thats good stuff, ehh?
Bobby,
you teach math? at the college or high school level
Although, Bobby…you might wanna try the conjugal act JUST in case…considering it’ll be another six weeks after the birth until you can engage in it again. *giggle*
Heck, you might never know if it will work. :D
I’m a math graduate student, so I teach college. Hey, I think we “met” on this blog a few months back. You teach math too, right? Was it middle school?
I’m a math graduate student, so I teach college. Hey, I think we “met” on this blog a few months back. You teach math too, right? Was is high school level?
Hmmm…so the moment you push “post”, hitting “stop” in the browser doesn’t stop you from posting… I see…
Bobby,
*sigh* ah yes I remember now. Long story short. I resigned from my position about a week and half ago. Ever seen Dangerous Minds or Freedom Writers? That was what my classroom of 7th graders was like.
Oh I know Lyssie! That’s gonna be quite the challenge going those 6 weeks…
The students were very rude and very disrespectful. The administration wasn’t much help either. I could tell lots of stories but I don’t want to depress anyone. hehe
Ugh. Sorry to hear that JM. Do you know what you’re going to do now?
Ugh, Ray, I feel terrible for your wife. The horror stories from my mom about her pregnancy with me…it makes me shudder. Add that to the fact that she dealt with natural childbirth with me, only because she was told that lamaze was the most “beautiful thing ever” (she took the classes and called them the biggest bunch of crap EVER), and it was too late to give her an epidural when she wanted it.
Honestly, if my first pregnancy is hell…I’m stopping after one kid, hands down. I realize that all pregnancies are different, but I’m not going to be willing to get pregnant again just to see if it’s true in my case! LOL.
I will say, however, these students were really really low learners…. I had a student, a 7th grader that couldn’t divide. I asked him what 2 divided by 2 was and he literally did not know. Very few students knew their multiples and had to look at my multiplication table. Several students had problems with order of operations.
I am going to move back to MN and try to find a long term sub position.
Although, Bobby…you might wanna try the conjugal act JUST in case…considering it’ll be another six weeks after the birth until you can engage in it again. *giggle*
Heck, you might never know if it will work. :D
Posted by: Lyssie at November 7, 2007 9:07 PM
That made me giggle! Lyssie, I can almost see you tee heeing. :)
Well gotta go cuddle with the kiddies. Hubby isn’t having any luck getting them to bed.
Good luck Bobby. I’ll say a prayer for you and your wife. Who’s the Saint of the Day tomorrow? Is it Severus? Maybe she can hold out until the 11th (my anniversary!) that’s Martin of Tours (patron of innkeepers and beggars) or Catherine of Alexandria, but I don’t think she wants to hold out until the 25th for that one. (Plus she’s the patron Saint of spinsters so…)
Aww Lyssie your childbirth won’t be horrible..just TAKE THE DRUGS! A lot of people try to be all “tough” and do it natural..but I’m all about medication. I wouldn’t get a toothache filled without novacaine…why would I push a baby out my hoo-haa without medicine???
And that’s right..I said hoo-haa.
Nah, not yet. In fact, we have a doctors appointment tomorrow, and we’re predicting she won’t even be dilated yet. We’ve predicated that she’ll have to be induced, which sucks.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 7, 2007 8:23 PM
…………………
Both of my deliveries were induced. Wicked contractions! Think epidural.
“And that’s right..I said hoo-haa.”
Yes you did and laugh out loud it made me do. ;)
JM…I am so sorry about that teaching thing. I really am shocked at the lack of basic skills kids have today. I once read this project my brother had to do involving some book and relating topics in it with letters in the alphabet..he said X is for Xtreme Pain! I was like WHAT! I still make fun of him for that to this day! He was also in 8th grade. Then my mom decided private school would help him actually LEARN a lot more. He’s getting a B in english now THANK GOD!
Anyone got any chocolate? I need junk food :-)
“Good luck! Doesn’t always work that way. Daughter is an oopsie. I wasn’t ready but got myself ready because I wanted to. Choice is a wonderfull thing.”
I am well aware that I could get pregnant before I am ready. That is why I am taking precautions to prevent pregnancy. If I do happen to get pregnant before I am ready then yes “I will get ready real fast”
Posted by: JM at November 7, 2007 8:12 PM
………………………
I hope that it happens when and how you want.
Elizabeth- I was quite shocked too. I have taught in other schools, well helped out and student taught. It was not like that at all.
“I hope that it happens when and how you want. ”
Me too, but if it happens I will think the same thing you did. get myself ready because thats what I would want.
Can I just ask a general question? And please BE HONEST! Does anybody really EVER feel ready for a baby or to be pregnant? I mean you may THINK you are ready..but the reality is so much different than you imagine it in your mind that I think being “ready” is something we maybe trick ourselves into thinking. Also, I am not speaking about the financial/career kind of ready. Of course if you are in a terrible job where you don’t make any money..or are just starting out your career..you may be less prepared FINANCIALLY to handle a child. BUT..I’m talking about people who are financially stable, set in their possible careers, possibly married. When is it one knows they are “ready?” Because I tell ya..no matter WHAT kind of situation you are in..it is a totally scary thing bringing a life into this crazy world and having to protect it and teach it the right things and make sure the child grows up happy and healthy. Even if you are stable in every aspect of the word, I think learning you’re going to be responsible for a LIFE would make anyone second-guess themselves. So let me know what you think being “ready” means.
“I hope that it happens when and how you want.”
But if it doesn’t, please don’t kill your child.
By God Jasper! We’ve made progress!
You said kill and not murder. I can die happy now…
“I hope that it happens when and how you want.”
But if it doesn’t, please don’t kill your child.
Posted by: jasper at November 7, 2007 9:31 PM
————————————————-
See previous post by me. Unless you are like my previous students. They had selective hearing. Perhaps you have selective reading.
Elizabeth- I see what you are saying. huh i’m not to sure how to answer that.
JM, he does at times (Jasper) and he likes to twist things around, but other than that, he’s OK
I think you did. See with all this talk about making sure you are “ready” for a child I decided to pose the question “When does one know they are ready?” Because I personally believe that nobody is ever “ready” for a child. You may think you are ready and have read all the books, gone to the childbirth classes, etc. But being “ready” for an experience as profound as molding another human life is one that is hard to gauge. If you wait forever to be “ready” to have a child then maybe you are waiting for a time that won’t ever come. Maybe if you jump in with your full heart and head and immerse yourself in being a parent and loving your child…being “ready” will come to you. I think being “ready” is constant because kids are ALWAYS changing. You always have to think ahead and be “ready” for what they are going to do next.
It’s just some food for thought.
Stephanie, posting their names for them to find in a search allows the message — “You’ve invited a guy who has killed two patients to speak at your campus.” — to those who need to hear it.
BTW, I tried twice to contact Wayne State University, sending one email to the President and one to Public Affairs, and they both came back as undeliverable! So evidently their IT department is no better than whoever it is that oversees student activities.
Elizabeth-
Seeing what I saw in the school I worked at… scares the crap out of me. Raising a child is a scary thing. I was utterly shocked by some of the behaviors I saw. Words can not describe it.
Ray, the point here is that this guy is being brought in as a role model for aspiring doctors. Is that the best an aspiring abortionist can dream of — to not get arrested when you kill a 15-year-old girl performing an illegal abortion on her?
Christina,
I think that the school deserves the right to invite whomever they like to the school to lecture especially since I believe it has more to do with the group within the school, than actually the school. The college i went to had several speakers come. Some I agreed with and some I did not.
Christina,
I also think this would be a great thing for pro-life people to go to for this reason… They could ask the questions that pro-choicers wouldn’t ask. Do you think any pro-choice person would ask about patients that have died? I highly doubt it. But these are things they need to hear, especially if they are going to be doctors.
Can I just ask…if Adolf Hitler was alive and wanted to speak at some schools would anyone think that was okay? I mean…maybe he’s got some insight for our college-aged students. Really. I think we really need to stop giving an audience to what is evil in this world just for the sake of being “fair” to everyone.
Elizabeth,
I really don’t want to get into the Abortion/Holocaust debate
midnite and jasper are getting along!!:} Ray and Bobby are going to be dads!! OMG, this is great!!
I’ve always wondered how abortionists define their “specialty” in social situations, when someone asks them…or how they are perceived by their non abortionist peers.
6 years of medical school to end up killing babies. How truly sad, not to mention “lonely” for said student. I’ve always thought that abortionists became what they are when they couldn’t find honorable physician jobs.
Mike, nobody in the medical field wants a thing to do with them.
“Mike, nobody in the medical field wants a thing to do with them.”
Ummmmm where do you get that idea.
I’m not debating the Abortion/Holocaust issue..it’s just I don’t understand why people give evil an audience…..but I don’t really think a lot of people these days think there is true evil out there. But all they’d have to do is walk into an abortion clinic and then they’d know it exists.
Well some people don’t see abortion as evil. I guess thats the issue.
Well I’m sure there are some people who don’t view molesting children as evil either. But that doesn’t make it any less evil just because one does not perceive it to be.
True,
But that is where we differ, I don’t see molesting children and abortion as being the same. I wish people would not abort children, which is why I would never have one. But I don’t feel like it is my right to decide that for everyone.
I get what you are saying, I just disagree.
Elizabeth, there’s really not much argument about child molestation. Abortion is a much different deal.
Doug
Doug,
I think the child molesters would disagree with you there.
So child molesters would say molesting a child and having an abortion are the same thing? I doubt that.
I understand you are saying that child molesters think nothing is wrong with it, just like people think nothing is wrong with abortion. But the two are very different situations. I feel forcing a teenager/children to go to religion class or church is a wrong. You would disagree. You would also say the two are totally different and I agree. Just like i think child molestation and abortion are two different things.
This is meant as an observation, not necessarily to start a debate, but I have to say I am amused that it is you antis who seem all gung-ho for the epidural, while my heathen pro-choice wife plans to do a drug-free home water birth.
As for being ready, while nobody may ever be completely, I am vastly more so now than I was 15, 10, or even 5 years ago.
“I hope that it happens when and how you want. ”
Me too, but if it happens I will think the same thing you did. get myself ready because thats what I would want.
Posted by: JM at November 7, 2007 9:25 PM
…………………………….
High five! I went from disliking children to finding an aptitude beyond my imagining. And when faced with the need for an abortion, I learned even more about life experience beyond my narrow little perceptions.
Sally, yes but i certainly hope I don’t get pregnant right now. hehe
Elizabeth,
I just want to say thank you for the great debate we have been having tonight. Its so nice to have a civil debate. Sometime it can get pretty heated on here and I feel people don’t respect my opinions or ideas. Then I find it hard to respect their ideas and opinions. I feel you have been very respectful and I appreicate it. Thank you.
Sally, yes but i certainly hope I don’t get pregnant right now. hehe
Posted by: JM at November 7, 2007 11:01 PM
…………………
I’m with you honey. It would not be cool at age 50 for me.
Ray, I never called you or your wife a heathen. And that is great she is doing an at-home water birth. That is how she wants to do it. But I wouldn’t do it that way for my own personal reasons..and who know’s…maybe after she goes through it..she’ll want the epidural too. :)
JM..thank you. I try to always be respectful. I feel as soon as you generalize or disrespect someone you have lost them completely and then your whole goal is wasted. However, I have found that when I am being civil, I am personally attacked…not so sure why…but it can burn me and turn me pretty biotchy myself. So I understand how it can become angry rather quickly in here.
Sally, I don’t want to depress you or anything but my mother just turned 55 and she is still going through menopause.
hehe
Just checking in on my lovelies….
(translation: taking a break from studying for a little while…*sigh*)
So, Elizabeth, when is the bout between you and Jacquie scheduled? *cackles*
And yeah…I
D@mnit…everytime I put the “heart” symbol…you know, the less than sign, then 3, it cuts off the rest of my post. Such crap. haha.
I was gonna type I “heart” civil people. :D
What are you studying Lyssie
Ray, just wait til you get projectile pooped on in the middle of the night in the dark…hehe…then we’ll see how ready ya are. ;)
NOTHING ever prepares you for that haha. You probably don’t believe me, though. I know when I would hear stories about that I would always say to my mom, “My baby won’t ever do that”…my mom just smiled. HAHA.
ahhh…Lyssie. I wanted to tell you I’m gonna give my brother to Jacque in exchange for MK’s son..so it’s all worked out..no pro-life punch out’s lol. He’s a Joffrey Ballet dancer and a cutie from what other girls say so she’ll be purrrrdy happy haha.
wait… pooped on… I thought you only really got peed on… icky!! hehehee
and I thought taking care of my brothers sick doggie today was bad.
haha ohhh JM the stories I could tell you. Their cuteness totally makes up for it though.
Sick doggies are no fun..mine was sick a couple of weeks ago..it was so sad.
ok ladies and gentlemen…I have stayed up late once again enjoying lovely debating but now it is time for bed before my brain turns into mush.
Elizabeth, I used heathen merely as an adjective (it is accurate…not enrolled in the Army of Christ and all).
The way my wife’s delivery is planned, by the time she might change her mind about the epidural, it will not be possible to get one. She is committed to doing the natural way, unless circumstances call for a major intervention.
I understand that some epidurals are medically necessary, but that most are elective. For you pro-lifers that elect epidurals, I find some major irony in that you who claim to find life so precious are not willing to truly embrace the pain involved in bringing it into the world, which has been shared universally by women for millenia.
JM, they’re being dishonest if they have this guy speak without making it very clear that he has a very shady background, including the illegal abortion, two abortion deaths, and permanently injuring a woman by doing an abortion on her when she wasn’t even pregnant.
They’re allowing MSFC to have him on campus as if he really is who they’re presenting him to be: a brave, beliegered provider of vital reproductive health care services. And that’s wrong.
Yeah it was sad.. he puked like 10 times. :(
I used to work at a daycare with two year olds. Sometimes the poop would smell really bad. I remember this one time I was going to change this kids diaper, oh man it smelled so bad. I was like “Mason did you poopy” and he completely ignore me. It was the funnest thing ever. He would either ignore me or say “no I didn’t”
Studying for my cell biology midterm….then I’m getting up early to go work in the lab…hopefully on cloning tiny, perfect Christmas trees! It looks so interesting. :D
(it’s not the kind of cloning you guys might be thinking of, in fact, I think you guys would find it awesome)
Also have a nutrition midterm tomorrow, and an organic chem midterm on Monday. SO MUCH studying to do….so little time. *sigh*
I should go to bed….Goodnight, dahlinks!!
Good Night Elizabeth.
Ray, just wait til you get projectile pooped on in the middle of the night in the dark
They sell cute little “tent” shields for boys peepees while you are changing them, but we don’t know if it is a boy or girl yet so we didn’t bother buying them.
“They sell cute little “tent” shields for boys peepees while you are changing them, but we don’t know if it is a boy or girl yet so we didn’t bother buying them.”
That might work for the pee… but what about the poop?
That might work for the pee… but what about the poop?
If the smell is really that noxious, I suppose I dig out the charcoal filter respirator that I used to use in college when a pot sat dirty in the sink for too long. And we have a really good washing machine for the clothes. :)
JM, you don’t have to see abortion in general as evil to recognize the evil in performing an illegal third-trimester abortion on a statutory rape victim at the request of her abuser’s sister, in violation of parental consent laws. You don’t have to see abortion in general as evil to see the evil in lying to the girl and her mother when they told him she had changed her mind and wanted the laminaria removed. (They told her this would endanger her life. Ha!)
You don’t have to see abortion in general as evil to see what this man did was evil, any more than you would have to see teaching as evil to recognize the evil of a teacher sexually abusing a student.
I think Hodari is somebody that anybody, regardless of their stand on abortion, could pretty much agree has a loathsome history and ought not to be held up as a role model.
Christina,
I see where you are coming from, but the school has the right to have anyone come that they choose.
I guess my hope is that someone goes and asks the doctor questions that would make him uncomfortable. I hope someone asks him about the third trimester abortion etc.
Unless I missed something way back, WHAT is the big issue with ProLife women having epidurals during childbirth? Does having one somehow make them “less” pro-life or is this option something that is solely reserved for those women who have PBA’s?
Sally, I don’t want to depress you or anything but my mother just turned 55 and she is still going through menopause.
Posted by: JM at November 7, 2007 11:13 PM
……………….
Thanks sweet thing/sweetie/honey. (Some people think those terms are meant to be demeaning. They aren’t from me.)
I have 2 older sisters. Ruth is 52 and over it all. Pretty much cake for her. But then she weighs twice as much as me and has never had children. Older sis had her parts removed in her 40s and is still reeling from the effects of her head spinning around.
I think I’m ok.
I was looking for something else but found this.
I haven’t seen it before.
…………………..
Physician’s Oath
At the time of being admitted as a member of the medical profession:
I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due;
I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity; the health of my patient will be my first consideration;
I will maintain by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble traditions of the medical profession; my colleagues will be my brothers;
I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, party politics or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I will maintain the utmost respect for human life from the time of conception, even under threat, I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity;
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honor.
Citation:
Declaration of Geneva (1948). Adopted by the General Assembly of World Medical Association at Geneva Switzerland, September 1948.
Ray and Bobby,
Congrats on the upcoming babies. One personal question, though, related to the flying poop theme:
Are your wives planning to breastfeed exclusively?
The reason I ask is, breastfed babies tend to have more episodes of, well, let’s say forcefully excreted product. But, the good news is that it doesn’t really smell bad. It even has a bit of sweet aroma to it. Formula babies, however, have poop that smells pretty bad, but it doesn’t fly as often.
Anyway, sorry if I’m too graphic, but you’ll see what I mean soon!
Can I just ask…if Adolf Hitler was alive and wanted to speak at some schools would anyone think that was okay? I mean…maybe he’s got some insight for our college-aged students. Really. I think we really need to stop giving an audience to what is evil in this world just for the sake of being “fair” to everyone.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 10:00 PM
……………..
If you could summon up a dead guy to speak, I’d be all over it.
Sally, it’s like those hotlines, “Call and talk to live psychics!” I’ll believe they have something paranormal going when they come up with a line where I can call and talk to dead psychics.
Jacquie and Elizabeth…
From Danny:
oh my God. you are a weirdo.
*
anybody, after talking to you, still willing to date me is my kind of
girl.
first question: have you ever transcended space and time?
EVERYONE,
I posted this earlier, but got no response…I’m really curious what you think…
On another post Enigma brought something up that made my “lightbulb” go off…
She says that nobody has the right to use another persons body, therefore the woman, who did not consent to pregnancy, has the right to take the childs life.
Let’s pretend for a moment that that is true.
What then, gives a third party the right to take that life. She referred to them as the “agent”…
I can understand (tho vehemently disagree with) the argument that it is HER body and she should have control over it.
It reminded me of that Shakespeare thing where the guy owes a pound of flesh? And his “lawyer” says he the other guy can have his “flesh” when he figures out how to get it without taking any blood. Obviously, the guy gets to keep his flesh.
Well, it seems to me that since the only one whose rights are being violated in an unwanted pregnancy is the mothers (remember, we’re pretending to agree here, so the babies rights don’t count for now), why does the “agent” who performs the abortion get a free pass. Seems to me that the women herself should be the only one with the “right” to abort her child. This would make the “agent/abortion doctor” a murderer, since HIS rights are NOT being violated…see where I’m coming from?
What do you think?
My opinion? Enigma is still trying to justify legalized murder. She’s just getting more creative with her wording.
No matter which way you twist and turn the wording, it all comes back to the same result. If you have paid an abortionist to exterminate your child, you have committed murder.
MK…your son sounds hilarious! And you’re pretty frickin’ funny yourself so I don’t know what he is talking about!
Hippie –
They haven taken that line out of the Physican’s Oath that deals with conception. Med Schools are not requiring their graduates to state they will do no harm in reguards to the unborn. By taking it out, they can say they are not bound by it. So it is easy for them to do abortions, or euthenize people. My friend is a Pediatrian and she was furious that she wasn’t given the opportunity to take the Hipocratic Oath. Her medical school didn’t require it.
“she was furious that she wasn’t given the opportunity to take the Hipocratic Oath.”
Holy Cow, say any Oath you want. “wasn’t given the opportunity?” She has the opportunity every day.
Ray,
Until you have actually experienced childbirth in all its glory and the pain that accompanies it..I do not think you have any room to be questioning anyone else’s decision to use medication during their’s. No offense intended of course. And like I said….I would not have a cavity filled without novacaine..nor would I push a big ol’ baby out my lady parts without something. And I didn’t either…I had the lovely spinal epidural…thank GOD for those!
first question: have you ever transcended space and time?
This question is like when people at the movies ask, “Do you want butter on your popcorn?”
Isn’t the answer always “Yes”?
Hal –
She does live by it everyday. She has a private practice that works almost exclusively with those on medicaid or no insurance at all. She’s definately not in it for the money!!
But my point was, the school did not allow the students to have the opportunity to speak it during their commencement. By taking it out, new doctors are not held to the standard of protecting ALL life whether unborn, born, unto natural death. It gives them an out.
A physicans job is to protect a life, not take it.
Elizabeth, someone here put it best. They don’t hand out any awards for how much pain a woman can endure. Would you ask someone who was having kidney stone pain not to take the morphine? That’s just asinine. I asked for the drugs!
Ray, my second was a natural birth, sort of. I was induced and had cirvidrol (?) before they started pitocin. The nurse kept telling me that they didn’t want to “check” me because the cirvidrol might come out/off. I kept saying my contractions were terrible and I needed the epidural but she said the stuff normally stayed on 6 – 8 hours before they even started the pitocin. (At that point I had only had it about 3 hours.) They finally did check and I was only dilated to 3.5 and the very unkind nurse said “FINE! I’ll call the anesthesiologist.” She called from my room and by the time she hung up and looked at me my son had crowned. She screamed “OH ST!T” and ran out of the room leaving me and my fainting husband there. It turned out all right and I have to say that I felt every bit. The actual birth didn’t hurt but the contractions were very bad and I thought they would go on much longer.
I was in labor with my first for 17 hours and really there is only so much a body can take. If you exhaust yourself with contractions you won’t be able to push and that’s why my older sister had to have a C-section.
Tara, your Doctor Friend might have wanted to publicly speak the oath, I’m thinking she also wanted her classmates to have to do it too, maybe so she could later claim they shouldn’t perform abortions.
My father is a pediatrician, he’s pro-choice.
My mother is a teacher, she’s pro-choice.
As I said a long time ago, I don’t think I know anyone in “real life” who would support a government ban on abortion.
Maybe that’s why I like talking to you guys, it’s like visiting a different country (or planet ;))
Hi Michael.
“Are your wives planning to breastfeed exclusively?”
Mine is. We even have a breast pump (she made me try it out first) so that we can always feed the baby breast milk. We think that having the baby breastfeed for as long is she can will be good for her. Oh, BTW, she is due today, and induction is scheduled for Wednesday if the baby doesn’t come out by then. So one more week at the most! God love you, Michael.
Hal, do you have your Lonely Planet travel guide when you come on here?
Bobby,
Can I ask you why you are going to induce so soon?
Well, I dunno. That’s just what the doctors told us.
I ask Bobby, because inducing can be really hard. I mean if you go 2 weeks past the due date then you run the risk of Meconium Poisoning, and this is a real concern, but otherwise it’s really hard on the body.
Ask your doctor if there are any medical reasons for inducing so soon. It’s often a “time-saving/convenience” factor.
I don’t mean to throw unsolicited advice at you. I’m just concerned, because it seems like everybody induces these days, for no other reasons than convenience.
I have six. 5 were not induced. I had all of them within 4 hours of arriving at the hospital, 4 naturally.
Only one was induced. Hours and hours of painful contractions that did absolutely nothing. I just wasn’t ready…he did eventually come, but it was my worst experience. If your cervix is not effaced, inducing can be awful.
Obviously you should follow your doctors advice. And follow your own instincts. I just wanted you to make an “informed” choice. And you don’t seem all that informed. You know what I mean?
Thanks for the advice, MK. Actually, just now, my wife sent my parents the report, and my dad said the same kinds of things as you are saying. We’ll definitely talk to the doctor about this. Hopefully it won’t be an issue if she has the baby before that, but we’ll see. God love you, MK.
“As I said a long time ago, I don’t think I know anyone in “real life” who would support a government ban on abortion.
Maybe that’s why I like talking to you guys, it’s like visiting a different country (or planet ;))
Posted by: Hal at November 8, 2007 9:40 AM”
———————————
Hal,
Come join us at the pro-life rally on Nov. 17th at the PP place in Aurora. We’re very “real enough”.
You can meet and talk to hundreds (even a thousand) of us and we won’t even bite…
Hal, if you really want to meet people from another planet, visit Amanda Marcotte, and friends, at Pandagon. Those people are far out!
I know most of you won’t bite…
however, I wouldn’t want to be counted as part of a pro-life rally. Maybe you could come across the street to our pro-choice rally. I’m just kidding, of course, I can’t be in Chicago area that day.
NO problem, Hal…you’ll have plenty of chances to drop by. We have a rally every 3rd Saturday of the month until that outpost of hell is closed.
You might get lonely, though, the pro-abort supporters don’t have the commitment to show up (like on Oct. 27)
or the handful that do don’t even stay long (like on Aug.25)….
Hal,
I know pediatricans – ob/gyns who are against abortion and want to see it illegal. My friend being one of them. There are many pro-life physican organziations CMDA, AAPLO, Prolife Physicans, Nurses for Life, and many others. There is actually a split in the medical community about abortion. I’m sorry you haven’t met any, but like RSD said, come out to Aurora PP on the 17th. We really don’t bite and would like to talk to you in person. You might be surprised:)
Tara, you’re right! I know of plenty of nursing students who refused to participate in any abortion procedures. They had the right to refuse. Think about this. If MOST ob/gyns were PC and “cool” with abortion, then why on earth do we have abortion clinics? Heck, you could just go to your gyn and have an abortion. Trust me, it’s not that way at all.
I am going to nursing school soon…and I WILL refuse to take part in any of those procedures.
While I don’t like abortion it is an avenue that must be taken in certain situations – i.e. when the mothers life is on the line. If you are an aspiring health professional and you refuse to help patients with necessary procedures, then, well you are going into the wrong field. Such selfishness…
“Elizabeth, there’s really not much argument about child molestation. Abortion is a much different deal.”
Doug, I think the child molesters would disagree with you there.
If you’re takin’ their side then have at it.
Ray: As for being ready, while nobody may ever be completely, I am vastly more so now than I was 15, 10, or even 5 years ago.
Right on, Ray – it’s not something to be taken lightly, IMO. Same as for getting married. Good luck.
Doug
It reminded me of that Shakespeare thing where the guy owes a pound of flesh? And his “lawyer” says he the other guy can have his “flesh” when he figures out how to get it without taking any blood. Obviously, the guy gets to keep his flesh.
Well, it seems to me that since the only one whose rights are being violated in an unwanted pregnancy is the mothers (remember, we’re pretending to agree here, so the babies rights don’t count for now), why does the “agent” who performs the abortion get a free pass. Seems to me that the women herself should be the only one with the “right” to abort her child. This would make the “agent/abortion doctor” a murderer, since HIS rights are NOT being violated…see where I’m coming from?
MK, you’re going with the “no rights” for the unborn deal, there, so the doctor wouldn’t be liable for anything.
Doug
first question: have you ever transcended space and time?
Once upon a time I had 17 big draft beers at a “Buffalo Wild Wings” place. That pretty well did it.
Doug
I am a medical student at WSU SOM. This article is ridiculous. Some day when you need one of us to save your life because you had an ectopic pregnancy etc, you will be grateful for one of us “bottom feeders”
Logical…I am going into the profession to help and save people’s lives..not end them…and if they give me the option to refuse, I will. Or I will find another program, another hospital, etc. You think I should be forced into viewing what I find to be a morally reprehensible procedure “in case” I ever decide to go into that area of “medicine”? (which would NEVER happen by the way) How much of a “choice” is that for me? I thought we were all into doing what is right for ourselves and all that blah blah blah you PCer’s try to sell. The day I am forced to view that kind of crap because it is part of my program’s cirriculum is the day I a) find another program or b) find another profession because something has gone seriously wrong in the medical community. I won’t work in a hospital that does abortions so I wont have to help patients with “necessary procedures” like that. I guess if you call having integrity and morals selfishness..then I guess you can call me Ms. Selfish.
amen Elizabeth!
Kristen-
I can’t believe that you didn’t know that genital warts exist!
Logical, even women with multiple organ transplants can get safely through pregnancy. I was surprised when I was looking up medical articles on high risk pregnancy and they measure the outcome in whether or not the baby survives, and whether or not the woman needs various interventions. It has come to the point where risks to the mother’s life due to pregnancy (aside from ectopic pregnancy, which is a tangential issue) is so rare that one might as well expect every OB/GYN to know how to do a kitchen-table c-section in a log cabin in a blizzard, just in case it ever comes up. The odds of any doctor having a patient who actually is in a “her life versus this healthy fetus gestating where it’s supposed to be” comes into play is so slim it’s almost a non-question. And I’d rather see doctors trained in saving lives than in seeing how quickly and efficiently they can dispatch people.
JC, first of all, the last person you want to go to with an ectopic is an abortionist. They’re notoriously bad at diagnosing them. In theory, the abortion-minded women ought to be the one whose ectopic gets diagnosed and treated in the most timely manner, but in practice a woman who seeks out an abortion is less likely to be accurately diagnosed and more likely to die.
Second of all, I’d not seek care from an abortionist no matter what if I was pregnant, because I’d not trust somebody who would as soon kill my child as look at him. I’d as soon hire Ted Bundy to take my daughter on a road trip.
Third of all, the only difference between how prolife and prochoice doctors approach ectopics is that the prolife doctors manage the risks — possible rupture and bleeding — without directly killing the embryo, whereas a prochoice doctor will have no qualms about directly killing the embryo. Both will treat the patient.
Finally, if I had an ectopic, I’d be seeking out a doctor who would try some radical new experimental procedure to save the baby, perhaps carefully opening the tube so it won’t rupture, then moving it so that it lies atop the uterus. I’d want him to try to save my baby’s life.
Not all of us have this revulsion for unborn children that prochoice people seem to assume is natural in women.
Sally, it’s like those hotlines, “Call and talk to live psychics!” I’ll believe they have something paranormal going when they come up with a line where I can call and talk to dead psychics.
Posted by: Christina at November 8, 2007 3:05 AM
…………………………….
I figure if a psychic has something to say to me, they will call me.
first question: have you ever transcended space and time?
Once upon a time I had 17 big draft beers at a “Buffalo Wild Wings” place. That pretty well did it.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at November 8, 2007 7:38 PM
……………….
Hmmmmm. Chocolate mesc at a REO/Triumph/Rush concert back in ’74.
Second of all, I’d not seek care from an abortionist no matter what if I was pregnant, because I’d not trust somebody who would as soon kill my child as look at him. I’d as soon hire Ted Bundy to take my daughter on a road trip.
Third of all, the only difference between how prolife and prochoice doctors approach ectopics is that the prolife doctors manage the risks — possible rupture and bleeding — without directly killing the embryo, whereas a prochoice doctor will have no qualms about directly killing the embryo. Both will treat the patient.
Finally, if I had an ectopic, I’d be seeking out a doctor who would try some radical new experimental procedure to save the baby, perhaps carefully opening the tube so it won’t rupture, then moving it so that it lies atop the uterus. I’d want him to try to save my baby’s life.
Not all of us have this revulsion for unborn children that prochoice people seem to assume is natural in women.
Posted by: Christina at November 8, 2007 11:49 PM
………………………………
Christina, doctors are already attempting to implant embryos into women’s uterii. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does’t. Most ectopic pregnancies take place in the fallopian tubes. Many are simply flushed out of the woman’s body and some rupture tubes and threaten women’s lives.
‘Carefully opening’ the tube and searching around for a microscopic ‘baby’ seems an awful large health risk to you including the possible inability to gestate any subsequent pregnancy.
Remember, no you and there will be no baby.
Logical, how often do you think that abortions are used to save a woman’s life? Be honest!
I am pro life person; but I need to tell you that the information that you adress between Dr. Hodari and the young girl 15 years old who died after had an abortion in his clinic is not accurate with the true.-
Abortion is wrong, but the law says that the person need to give the reason for her abortion, and if she does not declare the true you cannot know.-
I saw many proteser in fornt of abortions clinics, but I didn’s see any protest in front of night clubs where men and women go to drink and get drunk, I didn’t see any protest in fornt nights club where the sign offside said,”FOR MEN” and they show shapes of women body.-
A wrong pregnancy start in wrong places, why you guys wait till the finnal moment to act?
Geraldo, what are you talking about?
Heather..I think he means why don’t we get to people before they get in the situation of having an unplanned pregnancy and then choose to have an abortion. Why don’t we go and protest at every establishment that promotes sex? (i.e. night clubs and strip clubs) At least I think that is what he is getting at. This is an interesting point to bring up and my mom and I frequently have this discussion when we talk about abortion. About how it is not merely an abortion issue..it involves lifestyles of people, families, etc. I think he’s saying we need to get to people before they even get in that situation, which makes sense. Even then, though that seems to be an even larger combination of issues than abortion itself is. And frankly I don’t have the answer for that as I do not know how to solve ALL the world’s problems. It’s kind of like saying…how can we stop there from being starving people all over the world? Well I don’t know if we can…all we can do is do the best we can with what we have.
Elizabeth, okay. I get it, but what has Geraldo been doing?
Probably nothing…It’s OUR job as PLer’s I guess to save the world. Nobody else has to help. People complain and complain..and yet THEY are the ones sitting on their butt’s criticizing us when we go out there and do something. It’s quite an interesting concept.
Hello Loves…
I added a picture comment, Elizabeth, to the Pill Plaque article…It just hasn’t been approved yet. Several pics of my pets are on there. :D
okay…I will show them to Gabriella when she gets up from her nap. :)
Logical, how often do you think that abortions are used to save a woman’s life? Be honest!
Posted by: heather at November 9, 2007 1:46 AM
Heather, if abortion is used to save a women’s life just once every year, then abortion should be legal. Wow.. mom killer…
mom killer? I don’t think so. If an abortion HAD to be performed in order to save a woman’s life, why would I object? I’m just wondering how often this happens.
Logical, 1.3 million abortions are performed every year in the USA. Who is having these abortions? Do all of these women have life threatening conditions?
You think I should be forced into viewing what I find to be a morally reprehensible procedure “in case” I ever decide to go into that area of “medicine”?
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 8, 2007 9:37 PM
————-
Ms. Selfish, you can be morally apposed to anything. But if you can’t do something that would benefit the patient because of those morals you simply shouldn’t be a medical provider – and you are kind of stupid. What if your doctor didn’t morally agree with antibiotics?
Logical, I have you figured out. You just want abortion legal on demand. You just tossed in “mother’s health” to benefit yourself. Nice try.
Logical, 1.3 million abortions are performed every year in the USA. Who is having these abortions? Do all of these women have life threatening conditions?
Posted by: heather at November 9, 2007 2:38 PM
————–
Heather, as a pro-lifer aka mommy killer, you want abortions to be illegal. Therefore in situations such as preeclampsia, we physicians should just sit back and hope for the best.
Logical, why do you have to stoop to name calling? Um, I just agreed with you on the health of the mother dilemma. You’re a doctor? LOL!
Logical, I have you figured out. You just want abortion legal on demand. You just tossed in “mother’s health” to benefit yourself. Nice try.
Posted by: heather at November 9, 2007 2:45 PM
————-
Very sneaky – you’re right, we should just ignore women’s health. I hope Heather is a pseudonym for Frank or Jimbo.
I’ve read that preeclampsia is very treatable. Care to elaborate, doc?
Abortion has nothing to do with women’s health. Unless the woman’s life is on the line. I do NOT support abortion on demand!
Logical, why do you have to stoop to name calling? Um, I just agreed with you on the health of the mother dilemma. You’re a doctor? LOL!
Posted by: heather at November 9, 2007 2:49 PM
—————
I’m glad you’re laughing too! See the truth is that I get a kick out of listening to you idiots. It like watching a bunch of hamsters running around in a cage.
Likewise. I guess you need to get a life.
Hey Logical..there are some parents who don’t think giving vaccines to kids is the right thing to do so they find doctors who DON’T push them…hmm maybe because they agree. Or how about midwives who STRESS natural childbirth? They may be morally opposed to medications being used during childbirth so the expectant mother wanting to have a natural childbirth can go to them! Since Abortion IS an elective procedure..doctor’s and hospitals can refuse to do them based on morality. I could find a doctor/hospital to work for that doesn’t do abortions because of the moral opposition to them DUH! You seem to be the pretty stupid one here.
I’ve read that preeclampsia is very treatable. Care to elaborate, doc?
Posted by: heather at November 9, 2007 2:51 PM
—————–
Jimbo, preeclampsia is very treatable, however, eclampsia is not. And while this is a rare condition, it is still a condition that exists. Aborting the fetus is often the only circumvention to save the mother.
If my doctor didn’t morally agree with antibiotics..I’d find another one of course. That’s what we do in America when somebody does something we don’t like..we go find someone who is more in tune with our morals/values. But since you are a robot and would probably do whatever anyone told you for the sake of your “profession” that may be a challenging concept for you to comprehend.
Elizabeth, so many of these pro choicers are so quick to label us “nuts.” Personally, If I really believed that pro lifers were “nuts,” I wouldn’t hang around them at all. So, who’s the REAL hamster on the wheel?
You know what doc.? I see where preeclampsia is treatable. Show me where abortion is recommended.
Hey Logical..there are some parents who don’t think giving vaccines to kids is the right thing to do so they find doctors who DON’T push them…hmm maybe because they agree. Or how about midwives who STRESS natural childbirth? They may be morally opposed to medications being used during childbirth so the expectant mother wanting to have a natural childbirth can go to them! Since Abortion IS an elective procedure..doctor’s and hospitals can refuse to do them based on morality. I could find a doctor/hospital to work for that doesn’t do abortions because of the moral opposition to them DUH! You seem to be the pretty stupid one here.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 9, 2007 3:01 PM
————-
Elizabeth, your ignorance makes me smile. Every reputable doctor believes in vaccinations. The others are slow to catch on – much like you. Countries that don’t “believe” in vaccinations have a much higher rate of mortality among their children. But really, that is neither here nor there. The real issue would be if a doctor denied a patient to a beneficial vaccination even after the patient requested it. That doctor should have her/his medical license revoked.
Logical [illogical] show me where abortion is recommended in the case of eclampsia. I can find links to the treatment of such illnesses, but I don’t see where abortion is recommended.
Logical, you sound a little nutty. Oh well, I have to go to work.
I am not slow to catch on thank you because I believe in vaccinations and my daughter has had every single one of her’s. You, however must have forgotten to get your rabies shot. And actually…there are some doctors who don’t push vaccines on their patients because some parents choose not to vaccinate. I am pretty sure that parents who choose not to vaccinate their children go to doctors who understand their point of view about vaccines (which mainly is that of the child’s system being too young to handle the toxins that are in vaccinations) But way to go not covering the other points I made in my statement about Abortion being elective. Abortions are elective just as vaccines are. Therefore, I don’t have to work for a doctor or hospital that does abortions..and there are plenty that don’t, so I’m pretty well covered job-wise.:) Have a nice day.
And before you go calling me stupid for vaccines being an elective aspect of medicine….They are. Parents who don’t vaccinate their child based on certain beliefs can get forms from the state offering them a special dispensation that allows their child to still go to school/day-care. I know..I’ve spoken/debated with parents who choose not to vaccinate their children and they have shown me the forms.
Abortionist Hodari protest at Wayne State today
Citizens for a Pro-Life Society is planning a protest today of late-term abortionist Alberto Hodari’s scheduled appearance at the behest of Wayne State University’s Medical Students for Choice for an unappetizing “lunchtime seminar”:…
Every reputable doctor believes in vaccinations.
Do you really want to get into the vaccine debate? There is a stunning lack of evidence that they save lives, and shocking conflicts of interest among the authors of the studies that say that they are safe. And no, every reputable doctor does not believe in vaccinations.
Thank you Ray. I’m glad we can agree on something.
Every reputable doctor believes in vaccinations.
Do you really want to get into the vaccine debate? There is a stunning lack of evidence that they save lives, and shocking conflicts of interest among the authors of the studies that say that they are safe. And no, every reputable doctor does not believe in vaccinations.
Posted by: Ray at November 9, 2007 5:49 PM
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Vaccinations essentially abolished polio. I don’t expect you laypersons to understand all medical jargon but “vaccination” and “beneficial” shouldn’t be something thats too hard for you to wrap your minds around.
Logical..I am NOT arguing the benefits of vaccinations. I am arguing the FACT that some doctors don’t push them because SOME parents choose NOT to vaccinate. Is that clear enough for you to comprehend? Or should I use some smaller words?
Vaccinations essentially abolished polio.
In some cases, yes, vaccines have been beneficial. But if you look at the statistics, death from measles, mumps and rubella were on the decline BEFORE the vaccines for those diseases were introduced, largely because of better nutrition and sanitation. In several cases, the statistics indicate that vaccines are causing more harm than they do good. Logical, I don’t know what qualifications you have that you disdain others as lay persons, but clearly you haven’t read much literature on this issue.
I must say, as a sister of one of the MSFC coordinators, I am very proud!
Posting the names so that,
“they’ll know exactly what sort of person they’re dealing with.” made me laugh hysterically.
I can tell you that my sister is a wonderful person who is very intelligent and will make a amazing docotor one day. Trying to slander or make these students look bad because they do not carry the same views as you is absolutely ridiculous and makes you look like an intolerant idiot.
Even more so, calling pro-choice supporters “abortionists” is like calling a third tri-mester abortion a “partial birth abortion”. Those two terms are ludacris, and made up and used by people with very little knowledge on the subject. Pro-choice supporters are not going around encouraging people to have abortions, therefore the term “abortionist” is very invalid. As a pro-choice supporter myself I, like many others support the CHOICE being to give birth or to abort the fetus. As we have many choices in our medical care such as to be a DNR patient or to refuse medical attention, we have the choice to give birth or not.
No one should be able to tell anyone else what they cannot do with their own body. If you do not agree with the practice, that is fine then don’t have it done. But no way in hell are you going to dictate your beliefs over anyone else! That is not your place! You are not God and you do not have the authority to judge!
And to hint that these students are “bad” people is so very idiotic of you. When I choose an OBGYN I am going to pick one that will let ME make the decisions of MY OWN HEALTHCARE. Put yourself in the shoes of the girl who was raped. Are you going to be the one to tell her that she has to quit school to take care of the baby of the man that assaulted her? And where is she going to get the money to take care of this child, you? Are you going to expect her to deal with the flashbacks of the terrifying assault everytime she looks into the eyes of this man’s child?
You people make me sick. And to think that you are a woman and are so uncompassionate to your fellow woman’s issues….and you call yourself a future doctor. What kind of doctor are you going to be if you cannot tolerate the beliefs of your patients? Are you going to post their names on the internet and call them “bad people”? Many of your patients will have beliefs you do not understand or agree with….get over it and become a professional.
You bet I will be choosing an OBGYN who is pro-choice because why? Because I’m not going to be told by my doctor that my pregnancy is going to cost me my life and that it’s just too damn bad!
I commend the members of MSFC for standing up for women’s rights!
Jamie..I do not call them abortionists..I believe many of us in here call them “pro-aborts” because that is what they support…they support the right to choose an abortion…therefore they are “pro-abortion.”
Doctors who are pro-life I am almost positive don’t say to their patients that their “pregnancy is going to cost their life and that is just too damn bad.” I have NEVER EVER heard of any doctor say that..let alone a pro LIFE doctor. Hence the doctor is into preserving BOTH the lives..and values them BOTH equally. I’m sure this is an impossible concept for you to comprehend since you think we are all crazy and just trying to push our beliefs on you. But umm..we’re not..you came to this website..nobody made you view it, so obviously we aren’t forcing anything on you.
I’m sorry that you can’t see the REAL message we are trying to send. We are trying to relay the message that abortion is NOT the only way…and that people who manipulate young girls into thinking it is are actually the idiots. Maybe not so idiotic as they are evil, though.
But thanks for coming through and taking the time to comment..it shows that we are having an affect on people. It really warms my heart. :)
Elizabeth,
If you value them both equally, then what do you do when the pregnancy is going to be fatal for the mother? Who is more important? The mother who is actually a live human being with rights and a family, or the fetus? Do you value women as human beings?
And no, no one is telling these girls that this is the ONLY way. I know that at places such as Planned Parenthood, the females are counceled and made aware of their options. They must wait a day or so before they will do the procedure incase the woman wants to change her mind.
So again, your term “pro-abort” is idiotic and invalid, sweetie:-). I hope you’re not a future doctor also.
As a doctor, one can only give ADVICE to their patients. They can not make the patient do anything. So as far as who gets valued more.. that is really up to the patient. If the patient is willing to let nature decide who lives and who dies then that is their choice. Not mine. As for me, I would try to save both. Because both are EQUALLY important. I understand you don’t value the unborn as a human life and that may be your prerogative..not mine. What if the MOTHER wants to save the baby’s life before her’s hmmm? What if that is HER choice? Oh right…no woman in your would would EVER want that. When I was pregnant…I didn’t have any of that prenatal testing done to see if my baby had abnormalities. You know why? Because what ever is going to be is going to be and it is not up to me to decide who lives and who dies. That is up to God. I’m sure you hold doctors to the equivalent of God but they are not. It is not their place either to say who lives or who dies. All they can do is follow the wishes of their patients, and if the patient wants their child to live before them, then it is the doctors duty to follow that. And of course I value women as human beings. I am a woman and I value myself as a human being. So why would I not value other women as human beings? Are you really that dense? Valuing an unborn baby’s life the same as that of the mother’s does not mean I don’t value women as human beings. I value them both equally you silly pro-abort.:)
oops I have a typo…I meant “no woman in your world would ever want that.” Not would would..sheesh it’s been a long day.
Wow Elizabeth. You’re so ignorant. I believe she clearly stated she was talking about having the “choice” which is clearly not being forced into abortion….are you that dense?
What makes me ignorant exactly Krista? Ignorant means you don’t have knowledge on a subject..and I have plenty of knowledge about this subject. So maybe you could find another name to call me. When did I ever say anyone is forced into an abortion??? Frankly, I don’t really get what the point of your comment is because I’ve never said people were forced into abortion..so if you could clarify which part of my post(s) you were talking about that would be great. Or you could just generalize and hurl insults without anything to back them up. Your choice. But I’m sure I don’t need to tell you which one makes you yourself look QUITE ignorant.
satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, non-loving, disrespecting, narcissistic aborting of babies in the U.S. of A. Come to think of it, Hitler would have loved it. God, in His Holy, perfect Word, declares abortion to be wrong, and that is all that matters, folks.
The so-called
There’s a wonderful new movie out now entitled Bella that speaks directly into this subject matter. It’s a tribute to the unmitigated value and dignity of human life. Go see it this weekend.