“Coping with a miscarriage”
That was the title of an email I received yesterday from a 20-year-old college student I’ll call Zoe who restated in her first sentence she was “coping with a miscarriage,” although that wasn’t what she was coping with at all. Zoe wanted to tell me her story:
My boyfriend [name removed] and I were going through some tough times. We weren’t agreeing on things in life and it just seemed like we were going in different directions. In my eyes, we were meant to be together. We both valued life the same way and had similar goals in life. He studies [same major] as well and we both are doing well with our careers thus far.
He felt the same way too except he just didn’t know what to do. We were sexually active with each other. We decided to have sex together because we believed we were meant to be together and that we would be together for the rest of our lives.
By the time things got rocky, I started to feel ill. Unfortunately, we couldn’t hold on to each other and we separated. That next week, I found out I was 6 weeks pregnant! I had no idea because I had a very small period. The baby was not developed properly and was dying in the womb….
Not knowing what to do, being by myself because my boyfriend was not communicating with me at the time, I asked the doctor what are some ideas I should do, and the idea of aborting the baby came up. I decided to go through with the abortion, even though it was against my beliefs, because I did not want the baby to suffer any longer. Plus, I knew with school, family, and my relationship at the time, I was not ready.
It is hard to believe I was pregnant. I feel dirty in a way because I let something so precious like that happen to me in such a terrible time. Being able to have children is a gift from God, and I feel like I have ruined that gift. Any suggestions with coping?
[Boyfriend] is finally talking to me, after I mentioned what happened to me a couple of weeks later, but I don’t think he fully understands what has happened. He treats this as if it was something I went through, and not him. Is it okay for men to not understand how serious this situation is and not feel a part of it? I thought for sure if I told him what had happened, he would be on my door step every day to make sure things were okay, and I thought this could really help our relationship, to help bring us together, and it hasn’t.
Do you have any suggestions with coping with the loss and how to handle my relationship problem?
Frankly, Zoe’s letter ticked me off. She was either in denial or parsing on the miscarriage/abortion word interplay. And she was either given bad information on breakthrough bleeding/fetal development or creating an assuaging story line. And why is it mothers of preborn children think it perfectly acceptable to assert they kill their babies to alleviate unidentified and unidentifiable suffering?
But I tried to mix mercy with frankness. My response:
Thanks for writing. There are many good organizations that help post-abortive mothers. My favorite is Save One
As for your expectations of [boyfriend’s] reaction compared to his real reaction, over 90% of relationships do not survive abortion. Yours was already rocky, so the abortion didn’t help, I’m sorry to say.
[Zoe], you’re partially facing reality but not quite. The title of your email, “Coping with a miscarriage,” is incorrect. You didn’t miscarry. I don’t know that you ever would have. Many mothers spot after they are pregnant. This does not necessarily mean your baby “was not developed properly and was dying in the womb.” If that were the case, nature would have taken its course had your abortion not interrupted. You’ll never know now.
Was that perhaps an excuse? Did you not actually abort for the other reasons you listed: “school, family, and my relationship at the time, I was not ready”?
The lessons for you to learn are hard. Sex before marriage is never good. You had an abortion. Your relationship with [boyfriend] is likely over.
I’m sorry to be so blunt, [Zoe]. Again, I think the best way for you to cope is to contact a post-abortive organization of other mothers who have gone through what you’re going through. I don’t think you can move on in life until you’ve dealt with this.
PS: [Zoe], ultimately, your healing cannot be complete without confessing your sin to Jesus, repenting (turning away from the sins of abortion and premarital sex), and accepting His complete forgiveness, which He promises. Until you do that, and you accept the promise of Isaiah 1:18: “‘Come now, and let us reason together,’ Says the LORD, ‘Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool,'” and Psalm 103:12: “As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our sins from us,” you will not be able to overcome this.
Zoe responded well:
Thank you so much for your comments and concerns. They were very helpful. I will definitely check out your blog to see if any comments are posted.
This really did help. Thank you for being straight forward. Nobody has done that for me yet, and I really think that helped me realize some things. I appreciate your concern!
I’d love to have the story posted….
Zoe’s response made me feel a whole lot better. She’s listening. Good for her. I know there are many wise pro-lifers on this board who may have other good counsel for Zoe…
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
over 90% of relationships do not survive abortion.
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Interesting.
Where did you find that figure?
finally talking to me, after I mentioned what happened to me a couple of weeks later, but I don’t think he fully understands what has happened. He treats this as if it was something I went through, and not him. Is it okay for men to not understand how serious this situation is and not feel a part of it? I thought for sure if I told him what had happened, he would be on my door step every day to make sure things were okay, and I thought this could really help our relationship, to help bring us together, and it hasn’t.
Do you have any suggestions with coping with the loss and how to handle my relationship problem?
I think you two need to talk to each other more – that you should try your best to show him how you feel. To the extent he cares for you, he will listen and “feel a part of it.” There are no guarantees but I don’t think you have anything to lose by being totally honest with him.
Best,
Doug
Dear Zoe,
I am so sorry for what you are going through right now. I have been there. I took the life of my baby as well. It has taken years to dissect all of the lies surrounding abortion. There is no “getting on with life” it is not “simple” or “the best choice” it is not “a problem to get rid of.” You are in grief. It is a process. Please be gentle with yourself. I regret my abortion and invite you to read my story on my blog. There is healing and hope in Christ. I will be praying for you, Zoe.
Zoe,
I don’t know that there is much that can be said beyond what Jill already laid out for you. You have a long road ahead of you and are in the midst of some very hard-learned lessons
Zoe;
“I thought for sure if I told him what had happened, he would be on my door step every day to make sure things were okay”
“I’d love to have the story posted….”
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I think her needy demands for attention and an audience are unusual.
Geez Laura….you might want to check a mirror before you start accusing others of needy demands for attention and an audience
For once, Laura, could you give someone the benefit of the doubt if they share a post-abortion story? Rather than question, how about sharing something of the compassionate kind. Even Doug had something constructive to say, for crying out loud.
Even if Zoe was trying to be dramatic, which we cannot say with 100% certainty, pretend she’s a stray needing love and attention and take it from there.
(Zoe, I’m not comparing you to a stray animal, but Laura works in Animal Control and has worked on behalf of animals. Just trying to touch a heartstring in her.)
Even Doug had something constructive to say, for crying out loud.
:: laughing :: Dang, Carder, was that some damnation by faint praise or what?
Anyway, no biggie, there, and if anything I’d just hope the best for the woman.
……
One thing I would disagree with is what Carla said: There is no “getting on with life” it is not “simple” or “the best choice” it is not “a problem to get rid of.” You are in grief. It is a process. Please be gentle with yourself.
Grief –> process –> it’s good to be gentle with herself, yes, agreed.
Yet for many people the process is indeed getting on with their lives, and even when regrets are there, there can be healing, (not to mention that for some people it is simple and the solution to their problem).
Doug
“I think her needy demands for attention and an audience are unusual.”
*wince* hate to say it but I agree…
Could be, but even then, what, really, of that? Wouldn’t it still be most important for her to do what is best for her, regardless of whether one is looking at this as a pro-lifer or pro-choicer?
Maybe there’s another agenda or some ulterior motives, but what potential harm can that amount to, in the first place?
Dearest “Zoe”,
I believe that we all do things in life that we’re not proud of. We take paths of the “least resistance” and then end up somewhere in no-man’s land asking ourselves how the heck we got there and how on earth we’ll get back on the right path.
You sound very young, but are expressing yourself in a very mature manner by both pinpointing the problems that got you there in the first place, and also inquiring on how to heal, which are both very important steps. I commend you for reaching out to Jill for help instead of keeping it bottled up inside.
As far as the boyfriend…looks like he’s not your “knight in shining armor” that you may be searching for. He’s shown you the “red flags”..run! don’t walk, and don’t turn back! Don’t settle…you deserve better.
From my personal experiences, I can firmly attest to Jill’s advice to you to seek your healing from Jesus Christ. He can, does and WILL heal you, and most importantly, walk WITH you, or CARRY you along life’s path if you will put your faith and trust in Him.
God bless you, “Zoe”…you are in my prayers!
Nicely said, Laura, though I think you’re wrong that the boyfriend is “unsalvageable” here. I’d at least give him another chance to hear what she is saying.
Happy New Year,
Doug
Doug,
I don’t know, but it seems from her post that he still doesn’t really care enough about her. I mean, what she needs…she seems to need a guy that shows her he cares, not just “talks”. He may not be a “red flag” to others, but I think he is to her by not showing her as much attention as she feels she needs.
Dear Doug,
Yes, I regret my abortion. Yes, I have been healing from it for the last 17 years. Abortion is not simple. That is a lie. You were not there. You were not there when my insides were torn out and I now can never get the the sound of the vacuum out of my head. Never. You were not there when the Dr. was angry and cruel and awful to me. When “abortion is between a woman and her doctor” are they talking about him?!
Women may think it is a solution to a problem. I did. It’s called denial. Getting on with my life involved depression, suicidal thoughts, nightmares, alcohol abuse, promiscuity and over and under eating. Getting on with it…
I was there, Doug. I was there in the killing fields when my baby died. My experience is mine. There are so many more like me and there is no shutting us up. No more. One million voices getting stronger. You will remember we were here.
God bless you, Carla! Please post more often!
Doug,
oops…sorry…Happy New Year to you, also!
Dear Doug,
Yes, I regret my abortion. Yes, I have been healing from it for the last 17 years. Abortion is not simple. That is a lie. You were not there. You were not there when my insides were torn out and I now can never get the the sound of the vacuum out of my head. Never. You were not there when the Dr. was angry and cruel and awful to me. When “abortion is between a woman and her doctor” are they talking about him?!
Women may think it is a solution to a problem. I did. It’s called denial. Getting on with my life involved depression, suicidal thoughts, nightmares, alcohol abuse, promiscuity and over and under eating. Getting on with it…
I was there, Doug. I was there in the killing fields when my baby died. My experience is mine. There are so many more like me and there is no shutting us up. No more. One million voices getting stronger. You will remember we were here.
Posted by: Carla Stream at December 27, 2007 10:03 PM
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You had your insides torn out? Good thing you didn’t continue the pregnancy or your uterus would be dangling around your feet. The sound of vacuums upset you? What did the doctor use? A shop vac? Carla Stream the drama queen?
Sally,
When making your list for Santa NEXT year, please don’t put “hard” on your list again…spell it this way: H-E-A-R-T.
Dear Sally,
Well if you want the truth. My growing baby that was in my uterus was sucked out with a suction vacuum. The sound haunts me.
Name calling? Am I in junior high again??
And again I say, You weren’t there.
Sally —
Do you find compassion painful?
I see your posts about clinic arsons, and you seem to worry about people being hurt there. Maybe you are just concerned about the business cashflow?
How in the world do you think anyone here would consider your points on the arson issue, if you can’t even express a bit of compassion toward a woman. Unless you are just being a pro-abort drama queen yourself.
Carla,
You are an amazing woman who has been through a lot. Your bluntness and honesty are great to read. Thank you for sharing you story.
Carla, I am sorry that you look back on your abortion with regret. But how can you declare that your experience equals the experience of any other woman? You look to assume that every woman will feel bad about having an abortion, when it isn’t a fair generalization.
Dear Erin,
I am not assuming anything. The pain and shame of an abortion can only brought into the light by the healing hand of Christ. I stand with my sisters who have had abortions. Abortion hurt me. Abortion hurts women.
I have met them. I have met hundreds of them. I know them by name. I call them my friends. Women who regret their abortions. Please do not feel sorry for me. Regret is the consequence. I live with it.
I originally commented for one reason only. There is purpose in my writing. To reach out to Zoe. To let her know that she is not alone. I shared part of my story to let her know there is hope and healing after an abortion. I wanted her to know that someone truly cares about her.
I am horrified/fascinated that there are so many pro choice voices on a pro life blog. Why are you here? What is your purpose? You can pick apart my experience and throw it in my face and argue this or that and call me names. Clearly you are trying to communicate something, but it gets lost in translation. What is your story?
Carla,
I don’t know which impresses me more…the fact that you are able/willing to speak up about your abortion or the fact that you are willing/able to put up with such negative comments from “the other side”.
Either way, I think you are amazing. When I read Laura and Sally’s comments I cringed, believing they would bring you to tears. But you fooled me, and stood your ground. I found myself cheering!
Please stick around. I have the feeling that you have much to offer.
Zoe,
I’m curious, as your “post” doesn’t mention what “doctor” you went to.
It has been my experience, that “doctors” who work for abortion clinics have been known to tell woman that her baby is “sick/malformed/dead/dying” to get them to cough up the 500 bucks for an abortion. Did you have an ultrasound? Was it a legitimate doctor or an abortion quack?
One important lesson to learn here is that when push comes to shove, at all of the most important times in our lives, we are “alone”. Giving lip service to being “pro-life” is very different that actually being “pro-life”…
In all things, what we say is easy, but what we do when we are up against the wall speaks volumes about who we are.
Basically, you caved. I’m not trying to judge you or accuse you…just pointing out that the real issue that you need to face is discerning “what you are made of”…
Satan loves to make complicated things appear simple, to make “solutions” seem enticing and easy. But that is just not how life works. I tell my “boys” all the time, if it’s “easy” it’s probably not worth anything.
Ending your pregnancy was “easy”. Living with the aftermath is something else entirely.
But it can be done. AB Laura and Jill are right. The first thing you need to do is to go to the “One” that can help. He will lead you in direction you need to go to heal…if you are willing to follow and listen.
Your boyfriend is not there for you, because your boyfriend is not you. He only heard about this after the fact, and your baby was not real to him. He is also probably jumping all over the rationalization that there was something “wrong” with the baby. This is an easy out for him.
Just like with you, when pushed against the wall, his true colors came out.
You bailed when faced with a hard situation. He bailed when faced with a hard situation. Now you know who you are. The question is, who do you want to become.
I’ll be praying for you. And I hope you stick around. We can “all” be there for you as you walk this path to healing.
If this came across as harsh, I’m sincerely sorry, but like Jill, I think the first thing that you need to do is to face the whole truth. Only then can you begin to repair the damage that was done.
God Bless you Sweetie…
Carla, thank you so much for sharing your story. I apologize for Sally’s rude comments. She has not ever been one to empathize with others. She has had an abortion as well, and I think that it’s possible her lashing out at random people is a result of her denial..
Abortion is not something that is easily recovered from, not at all. Your experience is not unusual, unfortunately, as you already know. So many women are in the same Hell on earth. I appreciate your being so honest about your feelings and for being so kind about it. I hope that you have found peace and comfort in your helping others to choose life.
Yes, there are a lot of pro-abortion people on this blog….but there are also a lot of pro-lifers. This blog attracts people from both sides, it seems.
Glad to meet you, and I hope you will stick around for a while. :)
Carla, I am sorry that you look back on your abortion with regret. But how can you declare that your experience equals the experience of any other woman? You look to assume that every woman will feel bad about having an abortion, when it isn’t a fair generalization.
Erin,
I’m not Carla, but I wanted to address your assertion that how can Carla know her experience equals the experience of other women. Perhaps not every women will feel bad or have a negative reaction after her abortion, but there are thousands of women and men who share similar feelings and experiences with abortion as this poster and they should be able to share their stories, find support to find healing and peace, and have their experience and feelings respected.
Mods, posted with some links (you know me and can trust me ;-) ) and it’s in moderation cue!
Rachael, I’m going to go ahead and publish it now. Thanks for letting me know.
No problem! :-)
I received a note from Zoe this morning:
Jill-
I honestly was expecting an automated response when I sent my letter. I did not believe someone would actually go out of their way to show their concern for me and help me understand what has happened.
[Y]ou truly helped. When I first told Isaac, he was sorry for what had happened but refused to be around me, or even accept me. Not even his mother, who considered me a much stronger and mature person than her son. She spoke so highly of me and really seemed to care for me in anything I did. When she heard the news, she basically pushed me away.
I was almost at the point where I did not want to continue any longer. I just wanted everything to go away. I was making myself sick every night because of how terrible I felt and how terrible things had become between me and Isaac, and his family for that matter.
But hearing what you had to say truly opened my eyes. I visited my old Bible study I attended back in high school, and that helped as well….
I am sure Zoe found most of your comments helpful, too.
Carla, I just read your comments and some of the hatefilled responses. Please don’t let them turn you away. Their goal is to do that, you know, to refute the pain of abortion because they believe it’s ok. I thank you very much for your honesty. I
Thank you for your encouragement, Jill and others. No tears, here. I will admit my mouth formed the shape of an O a couple of times. :)
I am a daily reader. A daily commenter? We shall see.
God Bless You!
AB Laura: Doug, I don’t know, but it seems from her post that he still doesn’t really care enough about her. I mean, what she needs…she seems to need a guy that shows her he cares, not just “talks”. He may not be a “red flag” to others, but I think he is to her by not showing her as much attention as she feels she needs.
Could be, Laura, and thus I said there are no guarantees. They may be “done” and they may not be right for each other. I feel bad saying that – it’s awful easy for me to say, and it’s awful easy to speculate about other people’s relationships.
I still think she has nothing to lose by talking to him more and trying to make him really understand.
Doug
Carla: Yes, I regret my abortion. Yes, I have been healing from it for the last 17 years. Abortion is not simple. That is a lie.
Carla, nice name, by the way – that’s my wife’s name too. Originally I wasn’t going to argue about this since the thread was about “Zoe.” Yet I didn’t say that abortion was simple, period. I know full well that it is not that way for everybody, and I believe that it’s not for you.
What I disagreed with is you stating that it’s not simple, period, because for some people it is.
……
You were not there. You were not there when my insides were torn out and I now can never get the the sound of the vacuum out of my head. Never. You were not there when the Dr. was angry and cruel and awful to me. When “abortion is between a woman and her doctor” are they talking about him?! Women may think it is a solution to a problem. I did. It’s called denial. Getting on with my life involved depression, suicidal thoughts, nightmares, alcohol abuse, promiscuity and over and under eating. Getting on with it… I was there, Doug. I was there in the killing fields when my baby died. My experience is mine. There are so many more like me and there is no shutting us up. No more. One million voices getting stronger. You will remember we were here.
I don’t mean to deny or minimize your experience at all. My point is that your experience is decidedly not that of all women who have abortions. I don’t think it’s good to tell “Zoe” just not to worry about a thing, and I also don’t think it’s good to act like it’s worse than what it has to be for her.
Best,
Doug
I am horrified/fascinated that there are so many pro choice voices on a pro life blog. Why are you here? What is your purpose? You can pick apart my experience and throw it in my face and argue this or that and call me names. Clearly you are trying to communicate something, but it gets lost in translation. What is your story?
Carla, I won’t call you names or pick apart your experience. The abortion debate is a good one in my opinion because it takes us down to the unprovable assumptions we all make. Getting to that point takes some real communication with others, usually, and I see communication as a good thing purely on its own. It also involves communication with ourselves, perhaps the best thing of all.
If one likes to discuss such things, this is a good place for it. There is also humor and shared caring among pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike. Over time, one gets to like the personalities.
Doug
Hi Doug,
I mean no disrespect and I certainly enjoy adult conversation when it doesn’t attack the person. We can agree to disagree.
I have not talked to ALL women about their abortion experience. I have talked to enough to realize that it hurts them. It kills their babies. It hurt me and it killed my baby.
I do not recall telling Zoe to not worry about a thing.
She had her baby killed and so did I. How much “worse” does it have to get? She is at the beginning of her journey. I have walked this walk for 17 years. Please give me the benefit of gaining some wisdom from it.
Okay, Carla – we certainly disagree then. The flipside is the testimony from several women we’ve seen right on Jill’s blog.
Best,
Doug
Carla,
I too am glad you are posting. I had a bumpy start on this (my first) bulletin board and I suffered some bumps and bruises, but kept reading and eventually decided to put my toes back in the water as far as posting. I still find it deeply ironic that nearly 100% of the vitriol on this board comes from PC
Carla- I have had an abortion as well. Afterwards, I felt an instant sense of relief. Honestly, I am THRILLED to not be pregnant or have a kid right now. My right to choose means I can stay on the path I wanted to take, instead of being forced to harbor a fetus for 9 months. I know people who have had abortions as well, and there are plenty who do not regret them. Again, it’s a shame that you feel that you made the wrong choice for yourself. But because you made the wrong choice for yourself doesn’t mean you have the ability to call it a wrong choice for everyone else. By the way, Carla, you know what? You did nothing wrong when you had your abortion. I’m willing to bet that you got a lot of things said to you. About how you should feel bad, how you need to ask for forgiveness, how it’s a sin, so on. But think, is maybe part of the reason you feel such guilt because people told you you should?
Erin, you seem to have a very strong need to persuade Carla not to feel the way she feels.
Why does it matter to you that Carla feels regret?
I’m willing to bet that you got a lot of things said to you. About how you should feel bad, how you need to ask for forgiveness, how it’s a sin, so on
If you’ll take a look at this thread, the only people who have been condemning Carla, calling her a liar, calling her a “drama queen”, etc, have been pro-“choicers”.
If you’re really for choice, then why feel compelled to try to dissuade this woman from stating how she felt, and how thousands of other women feel on a daily basis?
Why do you feel the need to ridicule her and ridiculously tell her that she didn’t really go through misery and regret after having her abortion? Why try to downplay it, pretending that it is only because of others that she felt bad at all?
I guess on the same note, (and I am not trying to make your hurt but trying to make a point here) I could also tell you that the only reason you say you suffered when that man attacked you and killed your boyfriend was only because people told you you should feel bad about it. The only reason it hurt you was because people said that it was wrong. Otherwise, I guess you wouldn’t have felt a thing, and would have just went on with your life happy as ever.
True or false, would the above statement belittle your experience or not? You may feel that you are not belittling her experience by saying the things you are saying, but you are. Just as you belittled my experience with miscarriage by saying that I lost a “potential” to a baby. Think about what you say.
“If you’re really for choice, then why feel compelled to try to dissuade this woman from stating how she felt, and how thousands of other women feel on a daily basis?”
Do you have any idea how many times at this site I’ve been encouraged to feel remorse and to seek forgiveness?
By the way, research shows that suicide is 6 times greater in abortive women than following childbirth, and three times greater than the general suicide rate.
http://www.deveber.org/publications2.html
http://www.deveber.org/text/chapters/Chap14.pdf
Well, Hal, you already know the reason for that. I am asking for the reason that someone supposedly for “choice” in abortion tries to dissuade the other side?
If you’re supposedly for “choice”, then why try to change a woman’s mind about the way she reacted to such a choice?
I am against abortion. I feel it is murder. Of COURSE feel that you should feel remorse for it. But that doesn’t explain why you feel the need to tell others they don’t feel remorse, does it?
Because there is no reason to feel remorse. If the crazies weren’t saying she was a murderer, she could move on with her life without such unnecessary pain. For example, if someone was making a child feel bad about something innocent, wouldn’t you tell the child, “you don’t have to feel bad, it’s okay, you did nothing wrong.”
Bethany,
I totally agree with your points and you analogy. What appears to me as the deepest chink in the PC armor is the fact that they will rabidly dog-pile on any woman who says she regrets her abortion. The same way they will dog-pile on someone like Elizabeth for raising her child with the help of her family, because Elizabeth
Because there is no reason to feel remorse.
But see, Hal, that is your opinion. And everyone does not agree with Hal.
If the crazies weren’t saying she was a murderer, she could move on with her life without such unnecessary pain.
That’s not true, Hal. Why is it difficult for you to believe that women feel pain without others making them feel so? Do you feel pain when I tell you that you should feel remorse for your actions? Or do you simply scoff at me? If a woman truly feels no guilt for what she did, no amount of guilt tripping is going to make her feel remorseful for her actions. She will simply ignore the remarks. It’d be like someone badgering me to feel bad about getting my kidney removed. Even if they called it “murder”, I would just be like, Yeah right.
There is nothing that would ever convince me that they were right, because I would know I did nothing wrong.
Do you realize that when you tell people they feel no pain after abortion, you are belittling the experiences of women who feel pain after miscarriage as well? Because if a woman can feel no sadness after having an abortion, there would also be no reason to feel pain and sorrow after a miscarriage. There’s very few people who blame a woman for a miscarriage, so you can’t blame that pain on others, Hal. The pain I felt when I experienced my first loss was as though I had lost one of my born children. It was actually worse, because I knew I would never get to hear my child’s laugh, I would never hear my child’s cry, or be able to look into those sweet eyes and see his or her smile.
And if you think my case is extraordinary, think again. A great number of women who experience miscarriage feel tremendous pain, and do not know who to reach out to to help them. In fact, I am in the process of writing a book about healing from miscarriage, because of the vast number of emails and phone calls I received after writing about my miscarriage experience. You would be amazed at how many women have contacted me since February when I first posted about my missed miscarriage. How many of them have been hurting and they needed to see those pictures and have some kind of closure.
My point is, if women feel this bad after a miscarriage, why is it so ridiculous to imagine that a woman would feel natural pain after abortion?
For example, if someone was making a child feel bad about something innocent, wouldn’t you tell the child, “you don’t have to feel bad, it’s okay, you did nothing wrong.”
Yes, I can understand that. But you are not comforting her, you are belittling her experience. You are not helping her heal. You are making her defend herself. You are being aggressive and hurtful to her without even realizing it. You are not helping as you seem to think you are.
Erin, you feel the way you feel. But bragging about it only makes you come off as crass. There are mothers who eat their young in every species
Hooves-in-Maw, let me try to rephrase Hal’s argument, because he’s saying exactly what I was trying to express. Abortion is not a woman doing something wrong. There are plenty of times in your life when you can make decisions, neither of which is morally wrong, but which may be the wrong decision for you. Take a basic example- I chose a college that I ended up not liking at all. I made the wrong choice for me. But plenty of other people are still there and love that college. It’s not morally reprehensible that I initially made the choice to go there. It’s unfortunate that I made the wrong choice for myself. I should not, however, be ridiculed and shamed about it. Women who have abortions do not need to feel like they killed a baby. Because they didn’t. They terminated a pregnancy. Personally, if a person has been led to believe that they killed a baby, I think they need to be told that they didn’t. That’s psychologically very damaging, and also not true. Women do not need to feel guilt about something that isn’t wrong. It’s like Stockholm Syndrome. Eesh.
What appears to me as the deepest chink in the PC armor is the fact that they will rabidly dog-pile on any woman who says she regrets her abortion. The same way they will dog-pile on someone like Elizabeth for raising her child with the help of her family, because Elizabeth
I must bid adieu as I am off to get my new puppy his rabies shot
I have to run too…see y’all later. :)
Hooves: I still find it deeply ironic that nearly 100% of the vitriol on this board comes from PC
Bethany, my wife and I had a miscarriage many years ago. It was a difficult experience, but for us I would never say it was as bad as if we lost one of our born children. It’s strange to say one things is “worse” than another, both are sad and tragic. But I know that I would never recover from the loss of one of my girls, and I know that we have recovered from our miscarriage. I don’t wish to belittle your experience, which I’m sure is genuine.
Erin,
You can wrap it up in a pretty little package if you like..if that’s what makes you feel better about it. But that doesn’t change what ACTUALLY goes on. Carla is rather blunt about what she went through and that is very refreshing. The niceties that you try to portray abortion as are really quite laughable. And why would you think that OTHER people made Carla feel that way? If you read her story on her blog like I have, I doubt you would say that. Her mother took her sister to have an abortion, so obviously her family didn’t really have a problem with it. So maybe, it was her OWN conscience that allowed her to feel that way.
How is your salmonella? Are you feeling better? I bet it was awful!
Hi Erin,
My abortion story is on my blog. It is long and graphic and true. I really don’t want to post it all here but there is so much more to the story.
I felt relief too after the abortion. Total absolute relief. That lasted about a week or so. Nobody told me what I would feel. Nobody told me anything. The guilt came after so many other things happened in my life. You can call it whatever you want. Just because you don’t believe it’s a baby, doesn’t make it NOT a baby.
I am not on this blog to change your mind. You won’t be changing mine. But I do wish you well, Erin.
Elizabeth- if you had a terrible experience with a tonsillectomy, if the doctor was mean and if the nurse was cold, would you see it as proof that no one should ever have a tonsillectomy?
And yeah, it was brutal. I didn’t start eating solid foods until the day after Christmas! It’s also made me not tolerate dairy very well- apparently that can last for months, which is very sad. I’m from Wisconsin. I need my cheese.
Carla- I wish you well too. I just hate seeing people punishing themselves or feeling guilty about themselves for things that I don’t believe they should feel bad about. A strong woman like yourself should be proud and happy with herself.
Come on, Erin, comparing your tonsils to unborn babies/fetuses…that’s a stretch. I really don’t know how you are quite able to disconnect yourself so much from the reality of the situation, but whatever works for you.
And yeah, dairy will take a while for you probably. My friend had salmonella once..it was yucky..do you know what you got it from?
Hi Erin,
I am from Wisconsin too! Is this our lucky day or what??
I am not punishing myself anymore. I am strong, proud and happy to be the Wisconsin State Team Leader for Operation Outcry.
http://www.operationoutcry.org
You can congratulate me. Or not. :)
In any case maybe we will meet someday. I will be on the other side of the street…holding a different sign than yours…
Hal: It’s strange to say one things is “worse” than another, both are sad and tragic. But I know that I would never recover from the loss of one of my girls, and I know that we have recovered from our miscarriage.
Hal, no question about it – it’s that way for many people. One definitely pro-life family of in-laws of mine had three miscarriages along the way, ending up with three children. The kids are now 10, 8, and 5.
All the pregnancies were wanted, wanted to a high degree, and the miscarriages were sad, but it’s nothing like if one of the kids was lost now.
Doug
Do you have any idea how many times at this site I’ve been encouraged to feel remorse and to seek forgiveness?
Posted by: Hal at December 28, 2007 12:22 PM
….not nearly enough! :)
Sally —
Do you find compassion painful?
I see your posts about clinic arsons, and you seem to worry about people being hurt there. Maybe you are just concerned about the business cashflow?
How in the world do you think anyone here would consider your points on the arson issue, if you can’t even express a bit of compassion toward a woman. Unless you are just being a pro-abort drama queen yourself.
Posted by: LB at December 27, 2007 10:57 PM
…………..
The only drama queens around here are PL. With such apparent lack of concern over the lives of firefighters, one can only ask why embryos are of so much concern to you.
Elizabeth- the ER doc said it was probably from eating cookie dough with raw eggs in it. 20% of eggs have salmonella, so it’s really a crap shoot. Who ever thought that something so amazingly yummy could make you soooo sick?
Dear Sally,
Well if you want the truth. My growing baby that was in my uterus was sucked out with a suction vacuum. The sound haunts me.
Name calling? Am I in junior high again??
And again I say, You weren’t there.
Posted by: Carla Stream at December 27, 2007 10:55 PM
…………………………………..
Carla, I have a friend that goes on and on about a hangnail as if it were the equivalent to an amputation. I have had hangnails. I have given birth, had an abortion and a spontaneous abortion. You weren’t there. There is nothing haunting about the sound of medical equipment unless you wish for there to be. Nothing gets ‘ripped’ out of you during an abortion despite all of your dramatics.
You made a choice. That you are unhappy with your choice points to nothing less than your own inability to make a choice that you can be happy with. Abortion isn’t the cause of your inability to make choices right for you. You are.
I suggest a licensed therapist to get to the root of your feelings of haunting/self persecution.
Hi Sally,
Were your comments supposed to make me laugh? They did. I believe a licensed therapist just might find the root of my feelings of haunting/self persecution(?Did I actually say that?)to be…um…an abortion.
I have made so many better choices since my abortion that I can be happy with. I let 4 of my babies live.
20% of eggs have salmonella, so it’s really a crap shoot.
&^@%$#?!! Erin, then I’ve been one lucky hombre my whole life.
Sally,
I love firefighters, have some in my family. I don’t like or support arsonists.
But my question was about compassion, can you answer that one? Are you afraid that having compassion for a woman who regrets her abortion somehow undermines your position on choice? Or is it just an emotion that would be hitting a little too close to home for you?
Doug- you’ve probably ingested it before. What really matters is the potency of that particular strain and how strong your immune system is.
Erin,
I do that all the time! It is SO good..and my mom always told me it can make me sick..but I don’t listen to her hehe. I really should..she’s pretty much right about everything lol.
Hah, well, I went 20 years without getting sick from it, and I’ll probably be right back at it next time I bake. Salmonella is pretty much just an intense stomach bug- it’s under-reported because usually people get over it quick. If I hadn’t gotten so dehydrated that I needed to go get fluids, I’d still be assuming that was all it was.
Still, Erin, I think it bears keeping in mind.
I’ve had food-poisoning twice in my life, both times in 1995, oddly enough. Not something I want to do again.
Doug
Carla Stream: How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doctor to murder your unborn baby?
Death? Life in prison? How?
SoMG,
Carla Stream: How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doctor to murder your unborn baby?
*
Death? Life in prison? How?
I’d say listening to you and your hatred would be punishment enough for anyone…
How do YOU think she be punished for something that isn’t even a crime yet, SOMG?
Did I read that right, or did SoMG just refer to Carla’s abortion as “murder of an unborn baby”?
Cool!…we are sooooooo making progress, here!!!
We still have a way to go, though, because SoMG is still referring to the “butcher” as a “doctor”. But progress is sooooooo good!
Bethany are you suggesting she shouldn’t be punished for murdering her unborn baby? Isn’t the punishment of abortion the whole point of the right-to-life movement?
SoMG,
Absolutely not! ENDING abortion is the whole point of the right-to-life movement!
btw…good morning to you & I hope you had a very nice CHRISTmas…
Happy New Year!
Bethany are you suggesting she shouldn’t be punished for murdering her unborn baby? Isn’t the punishment of abortion the whole point of the right-to-life movement?
no,the whole point of the right-to-life movement is to protect babies from being killed.
I think a “duh” is in order here.
:)
I don’t like hypothetical questions anyway. Reality is enough for me. Thanks.
I forgot Duh.
Carla, thank you so much for sharing your story! “Zoe” I pray that you will heal. Thanks to you as well!
Carla and Bethany, LOL!
Hal, your argument doesn
Do you have any idea how many times at this site I’ve been encouraged to feel remorse and to seek forgiveness?
Posted by: Hal at December 28, 2007 12:22 PM
——————————————————— Yet you still refuse to repent. Your conscience is speaking to you, HAL. That’s why you come here. You are wrong, and deep down, you KNOW it!!
Bethany, my wife and I had a miscarriage many years ago. It was a difficult experience, but for us I would never say it was as bad as if we lost one of our born children. It’s strange to say one things is “worse” than another, both are sad and tragic. But I know that I would never recover from the loss of one of my girls, and I know that we have recovered from our miscarriage. I don’t wish to belittle your experience, which I’m sure is genuine.
Yes, Hal, I remember you telling me of this situation before.
I was, and still am confused though, as to how you could even feel any grief for a miscarriage at all, after having abortions twice, and claiming that you felt nothing then? It does not make sense. You never would answer my question at the time that I asked before.
How is it that grieved you to lose an unborn baby in one instance, but not at all on the other instance?
Also, another thought. You say you could never recover if you lost one of your girls…yet, many people feel this way before losing a child, and then tragically, they DO lose a child. Their world is not ever the same, yet, they do eventually recover. The time of grieving is long and hard, however, they do recover. Therefore, how do you know, with absolutely certainty, exactly how you would grieve the loss of your child? I mean, you can imagine it, but you can never really know how able you are to overcome certain tragedy, until you actually experience it for yourself. You do not know that you would not be able to go on after one of your daughters died. God forbid that ever happens, but you could go on after mourning.
Hal, no question about it – it’s that way for many people. One definitely pro-life family of in-laws of mine had three miscarriages along the way, ending up with three children. The kids are now 10, 8, and 5.
All the pregnancies were wanted, wanted to a high degree, and the miscarriages were sad, but it’s nothing like if one of the kids was lost now.
Doug, did you experience the miscarriage yourself, firsthand? How do you know how they feel, Doug? Do you have some kind of astounding telepathic power to be able to know exactly what goes on in their minds, to know the limits of their grief over their child lost? If not, don’t you think it might be a little presumptuous to assume that they only grieved a little?
Just a little hint for you, Doug. I didn’t tell any of my friends about how I felt. I bottled it up when in public or around friends, and even family. The only place I have ever really expressed my feelings is to my husband, and to my friends over the internet, where it is much easier to write to express yourself through writing. If someone (IRL) asked me (when I was still grieving hard over the loss), “how have you been feeling after your miscarriage, Bethany”, guess what I tell them, “Oh I’m okay.” It was automatic. I didn’t want drag them down with me!
Just because someone tells you they’re okay, doesn’t always mean they are. Much of the time, it means they simply don’t want to burden you with their problems.
Also, it is very difficult to talk to people about miscarriage because most people don’t know what to say, or do, or how you’re feeling, because many people have not experienced a miscarriage either. It can be very uncomfortable after telling them. Many times people say careless (but well intended) remarks….such as, “you can always have another child” (imagine saying that to someone who just lost a toddler), or “well at least it was early on, so you don’t feel as bad as you could have”… Here is a whole list of things that people frequently say and shouldn’t, to a miscarrying woman.
http://www.babysteps.com/rrddmn.html#dos
They are very hurtful comments, and women would rather avoid them than to open up to most people. Most of the time, the only time you’ll really see a miscarrying woman open up to someone is when it is someone who understands what they’re going through (ie. Has experienced a miscarriage as well).
It’s no wonder that women keep their feelings bottled up inside them. I’m lucky I had an understanding husband- many women aren’t that fortunate.
Also, it is very difficult to talk to people about miscarriage because most people don’t know what to say, or do, or how you’re feeling, because many people have not experienced a miscarriage either. It can be very uncomfortable after telling them. Many times people say careless (but well intended) remarks….such as, “you can always have another child” (imagine saying that to someone who just lost a toddler), or “well at least it was early on, so you don’t feel as bad as you could have”… Here is a whole list of things that people frequently say and shouldn’t, to a miscarrying woman.
http://www.babysteps.com/rrddmn.html#dos
They are very hurtful comments, and women would rather avoid them than to open up to most people. Most of the time, the only time you’ll really see a miscarrying woman open up to someone is when it is someone who understands what they’re going through (ie. Has experienced a miscarriage as well).
Bethany,
Thank you for sharing all this…I, like you, can not understand Hal or Doug’s logic on this matter. Maybe because it’s just not logical but that’s neither here nor there. Anyway, my mother had my brother when she was about 7 1/2 months and he died due to spina bifida (he never developed a brain) and people in my dad’s family would say stuff like this ALL the time to her. The day after she lost the baby, the nurse came in all bubbly and goes “So, what did you have?” and my mom said, “My baby died last night.” This was ironically also at Christ Hospital where she lost him. I guess they have trouble reading charts there too. My dad’s mom would say “Oh don’t worry, you can have more children!” I can not believe people say such ridiculous things. Like the birth of another child takes away the child that they lost, in the womb or out. I would imagine it is almost harder to lose something you never got a chance to know. You will always wonder what they would have grown up to be, or what they would have been like. I imagine that is horrible. For people to be THAT insensitive about it is just so annoying to me. Again, thank you for giving some insight into this matter..it is very helpful I hope for people who don’t quite grasp how hard it is.
Hi Bethany,
I am sorry for the loss of your baby. I have lost two through miscarriage as well. I read you loud and clear.
Elizabeth, I am so sad your mother had to deal with that kind of thing. People can be so cruel, many times without even realizing it.
Carla, I am so sorry for your losses. (hugs)
My mom had several miscarriages and she never talks about them.
Hell, I didn’t even know about them until I read my baby book.
My dad doesn’t really talk about them either, I tried asking him about them once but he was really vague, like he couldn’t remember.
Thank you Bethany…even today many years later it is still very hard for my mother to deal with. He is buried with my grandma and grandpa and she gets very upset anytime we go out there..she just can’t handle it still. I don’t imagine she will be able to heal from it til she meets him again in heaven.
Hi Sally,
Were your comments supposed to make me laugh? They did. I believe a licensed therapist just might find the root of my feelings of haunting/self persecution(?Did I actually say that?)to be…um…an abortion.
I have made so many better choices since my abortion that I can be happy with. I let 4 of my babies live.
Posted by: Carla Stream at December 28, 2007 8:31 PM
…………………………………………..
Honey you posted about being ‘haunted from having part of you ripped out’. if you weren’t speaking literally, please do qualify your post as the melodrama you meant it to be.
You let 4 babies live? Huh? You really don’t have the power to choose which wanted pregnancies will result in a ‘baby’. It isn’t about your desire at all. It’s about the luck of the draw. Pregnancy is a crap shoot. Luckily you have the choice to gamble or not.
Sally,
I love firefighters, have some in my family. I don’t like or support arsonists.
But my question was about compassion, can you answer that one? Are you afraid that having compassion for a woman who regrets her abortion somehow undermines your position on choice? Or is it just an emotion that would be hitting a little too close to home for you?
Posted by: LB at December 28, 2007 8:38 PM
…………………………………..
I feel compassion for any woman that regrets any decision she has made in her life. I respect any woman that does the best she knows how at the time and learns from it. Wisdom of experience is not reinventing the experience with a different decision and imagined outcome. That is a fool’s errand. Hit a little too close to home for you LB?
Honey you posted about being ‘haunted from having part of you ripped out’. if you weren’t speaking literally, please do qualify your post as the melodrama you meant it to be.
Honey. Haunted is a perfectly accurate and literal term for what Carla is experiencing. Please just check the Dictionary in order to see this.
“Haunted:
3.) To come to the mind of continually; obsess: “a riddle that haunted me all morning”.
You let 4 babies live? Huh? You really don’t have the power to choose which wanted pregnancies will result in a ‘baby’. It isn’t about your desire at all. It’s about the luck of the draw. Pregnancy is a crap shoot. Luckily you have the choice to gamble or not.
Let me spell it out for you, Sally, since apparently it’s not getting through in laymen’s terms:
She did not actively cause the death of any of her children after the first in which she did choose the death of through abortion. That is what she meant by “letting them live”. She didn’t “choose” their death, by choosing abortion.
She knows very well that she cannot make a pregnancy continue until the end, as she has stated that she had 2 other miscarriages since then, and neither of those was by her “choice”, Sally. She let those babies live too, until their natural death!
I feel compassion for any woman that regrets any decision she has made in her life.
Yes, Sally, you sure show it.
Oh and about the “ripped out” statement:
Definition of Rip:
“To cut, tear apart, or tear away roughly or energetically. ”
Quiz for you, Sally: Does the human embryo or fetus (using technical terms just for you) not end up being literally “torn away” from the woman’s body? If not, what happens in an abortion? Do they leave the embryo or fetus inside the body? Do they leave the placenta firmly attached to the wall of the uterus, Sally? What happens exactly, during an abortion, Sally? Maybe you could shed some light on that for us.
Since you’re the expert, you should know. Do you think it takes no energy or force for a vacuum to work? To pull and tear away the placenta from the wall of the uterus? Do you think it just peels off like a banana peel? Really. Think about it.
Rae, I’m sorry you had to find out that way… :-( I hope you don’t mind me asking, but was it surprising for you when you read your baby book and found that out? I can’t imagine what thoughts would go through my mind if I found out like that.
Have you brought it up to your mother, asked her about what she went through back then? I wonder if she would open up to you and tell you about it, if you asked? Men and women grieve much differently when it comes to miscarriage, so the way your father says he feels about it may or may not be a reflection on how she has felt about it, so if you haven’t already, maybe one day you could ask her about it – if you ever feel a desire to, that is.
Zoe, unfortunately you cannot undo what has been done. Please do not suffer unnecessarily. Get the help that Jill has so kindly suggested to you. Get on your knees in front of God almight and ask his forgiveness for this and every other thing in life that has not measured up to His standard of perfection. If you are not saved, please seek the Lord and he will respond to you.
Very importantly, please don’t ever tell any children you may have in the future about this. I am almost 30 and my mother told me almost 20 years ago that she decided to kill my brother because a doctor told her due to certain medications the baby might not be perfect. I was 11 years old, sitting on the floor watching the news and agreeing with the pro-lifers I saw marching on the t.v. screen, wondering outloud how in the world a moma could kill her baby. That is the moment my own mother decided to tell me.
She has since regreted her “decision” but it turned her into, quite frankly, a cold hearted monster of a pew warming woman and sent my poor father into a spiral of depression that he has never recovered from.
Almost daily I have wondered what my brother would have been like. I have wished that he would have been there with me, even if he wasn’t perfect and I had to help take care of him. I am an only child who is emotionally scarred for life due to my mother’s “decision”. what keeps me going is Jesus Christ, knowing that I will one day meet my brother, and looking at the face of my beautiful six year old daughter. My daughter was conceived before I was married and I too was told she might not be perfect. Here I am married to her father and staring at the most beautiful and perfect little thing you have ever seen.
Please don’t ever tell your children what you did, they will carry the pain too. Don’t let this eat away at you and change who you are- seek the forgiveness of the Lord and deal with the mental anguish.
Thank you for listening. Now I need to go wipe the tears from my face, those same tears I have cried off and on for twenty years, and kiss my daughter good nite.
Bethany,
In your “list” of do’s and dont’s it says not to say that your little ones are in heaven…or that it was God’s will. Why is that? You yourself have expressed these beliefs. I would think (but I don’t know, since I’ve never lost one of my kids) that you would be comforted knowing that if you can’t hold your baby, God can and does. And that there was a reason for the loss, that being that God willed it.
DON’T say “Your loved one is waiting for you over there,” “God wanted him,” “It was God’s will,” or “God knows best.”
xi. Now you will have an angel in heaven.
(Unless this means you are trying to say “aren’t you lucky?”…)
Where am I going wrong?
I would NEVER want to add to the pain that a mother was feeling, so I’m trying to understand why these “words” would be innappropriate…
Thanks.
mk
Mk, you are not doing anything wrong at all. There are some in there that may or may not hurt a grieving mom. Things that you have said to me have never hurt my feelings.
But to answer your question, I think that in the people who may be hurt by those two things…the angel in Heaven comment, it may be that they don’t want to think about their baby being in heaven at that time…even though they know your words would be rational, what they want during their time of grieving is their baby back, not to hear their baby is in heaven, so far away. I know, even though they know it can’t happen, that’s just how they feel…they may be open to thinking about that later, but at the moment they’re really grieving hard, it’s difficult for them to hear.
It’s the same way with the “It’s God’s will” comment. While they may know rationally that it is correct, their hurting mind may take that comment the wrong way. They don’t want to hear what they will interpret as “God killed their baby” (I know that’s not how it works, but that’s how it feels to the mom many times when they hear that comment), or it can place guilt on them, making them wonder what they did to cause God to want to take their baby. What sin they committed, etc. Could they have done something differently, and God would have made a different choice, etc?
I don’t know if that’s a very good explanation, but maybe it’s at least partially helpful to explain why these comments might hit a particular person the wrong way. But don’t feel guilty for ever saying these two things, Marykay. You were very helpful to me when I was grieving, and you did absolutely nothing wrong by saying them.
Also, I think that the manner in which one says it has a lot to do with it. For instance, when you told me it was God’s will (at least, I think you did), it didn’t offend me, because I knew you had the best of intentions, and you were being sweet and kind. I heard the same thing from the doctor who gave me the news that I had lost the baby in the first place. She was so cold and abrupt about it, and the way she said it, she almost phrased it like it was a question, “Well, if it’ll make you feel better, it was God’s will??”
It was a lame attempt to stop me from staring at her in confusion, and to get me out of the room. Her intentions were uncaring, which made all the difference.
Wow, Amy, I am so sorry to hear about that. I have a friend who has emailed me recently, telling me that the same thing happened to her (she found out that her mother aborted her sibling years ago, and also, just last year her own sister had an abortion, so that means she lost a sibling, and a neice or nephew). She is still going through intense grief and is looking for support. Do you think that there is any way you would be willing to send her an email and maybe you two could talk and give each other support? I referred her to speak with a woman at my CPC but I think that it’s always better if someone hears from another who’s been there, and can truly empathize with their situation.
If you can’t, that’s okay…just wanted to see if there was a possibility. Thank you!
Hi Bethany and MK,
Both these thoughts and others may seem offensive and inappropriate, but to someone of strong faith these both are comforting. Because Heaven IS God’s eternal-now presence and that IS in me and because as Jn says ‘God is love’ … then the notion of it being God’s will means this babe resides bathed in the same love that nourishes my life … he/she now dwells (is alive) in Him.
As St Paul says ‘Jesus IS our peace.’
PEACE
Very beautiful post, John…thank you. :-)
You’re right, without faith and trust in the Lord, the knowledge that my babies are in the most wonderful and caring hands possible, and that I will one day meet them again, I would have never have been able to have resolved my feelings after the miscarriages.
Thank goodness for the peace that passes all understanding.
@Bethany: It was awhile ago when I found out how much trouble my parents had in their attempt to have kids. At first I was kind of sad and then all I could feel was guilt.
I would really like to ask my mom about them someday, but I doubt I will. My mom and I aren’t very close, we don’t usually talk about this type of stuff if we talk at all.
Thanks Bethany,
That helped a lot. You’re right about “how” you say things…not what you say.
I can’t imagine knowing that your loved one was in heaven could bring anything but the deepest of peace at such a painful time.
I agree. I believe with all of my heart that we will all reunite with loved ones again in Heaven. I am looking forward to that day! I do not fear death.
I feel compassion for any woman that regrets any decision she has made in her life.
Yes, Sally, you sure show it.
Posted by: Bethany at December 29, 2007 10:20 PM
…………………………..
You show yourself to be a very angry and fearful person Bethany. I’m sure that my opinion of you is as important to you as your opinion of me is to myself.
You have every right to question what I say. At the same time, not knowing me, you make a fool of yourself attempting to judge my character.
SoMG,
Carla Stream: How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doctor to murder your unborn baby?
*
Death? Life in prison? How?
I’d say listening to you and your hatred would be punishment enough for anyone…
Posted by: mk at December 29, 2007 6:33 AM
……………………………………………….
I’d say getting stuck with you for any length of time would make anyone wonder what they were being punished for. Get it? Mounting personal attacks is childish and highlights the sinful nature of your position.
If you were truly Christian the hateful comments would stop with you. Instead, you prove what a hypocrite you are.
You show yourself to be a very angry and fearful person Bethany. I’m sure that my opinion of you is as important to you as your opinion of me is to myself.
You have every right to question what I say. At the same time, not knowing me, you make a fool of yourself attempting to judge my character.
Well, wouldn’t you also be making a fool of yourself by judging Carla’s character, when you don’t really know her?
@Bethany: It was awhile ago when I found out how much trouble my parents had in their attempt to have kids. At first I was kind of sad and then all I could feel was guilt.
I would really like to ask my mom about them someday, but I doubt I will. My mom and I aren’t very close, we don’t usually talk about this type of stuff if we talk at all.
I hope one day that you’ll be able to talk to her about it, Rae. It may be something that would bring you two closer together. I wonder if hiding that from you all these years has been difficult for her? Maybe you will find an opening to bring it up one day. (hugs)
If you were truly Christian the hateful comments would stop with you. Instead, you prove what a hypocrite you are.
Can you please explain to me what exactly was “hateful” about MK’s comment, Sally?
Oh and about the “ripped out” statement:
Definition of Rip:
“To cut, tear apart, or tear away roughly or energetically. ”
Quiz for you, Sally: Does the human embryo or fetus (using technical terms just for you) not end up being literally “torn away” from the woman’s body? If not, what happens in an abortion? Do they leave the embryo or fetus inside the body? Do they leave the placenta firmly attached to the wall of the uterus, Sally? What happens exactly, during an abortion, Sally? Maybe you could shed some light on that for us.
Since you’re the expert, you should know. Do you think it takes no energy or force for a vacuum to work? To pull and tear away the placenta from the wall of the uterus? Do you think it just peels off like a banana peel? Really. Think about it.
Posted by: Bethany at December 29, 2007 10:31 PM
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Have you ever been to the dentist Bethany? Ever had one of those little vacuums stuck in your mouth to remove your saliva? Was that saliva pulled and torn from your mouth? if you are a drama queen I guess.
Does your menstrual flow simply peel off like a banana peel? Banana peel?
The ‘peel’ of the banana would be an essential part of a banana. The same being as it were. You don’t really make any sense with your analogies.
Have you ever been to the dentist Bethany? Ever had one of those little vacuums stuck in your mouth to remove your saliva? Was that saliva pulled and torn from your mouth? if you are a drama queen I guess.
No, but when they extracted my teeth, I can guarantee it took some force.
Does your menstrual flow simply peel off like a banana peel? Banana peel?
The ‘peel’ of the banana would be an essential part of a banana. The same being as it were. You don’t really make any sense with your analogies.
Yes, Sally, and your analogies are awesome!
You know, cause saliva is most certainly analogous to the placenta which is firmly attached to the wall of the uterus, which must be scraped out with a curette and then sucked out with a vacuum hose, Sally… Oh yes, the memories- I fondly remember my dentist getting out the tools to scrape and tear my saliva apart from my mouth. Yep.
D and C is a procedure to scrape and collect the tissue (endometrium) from inside the uterus. Dilatation (“D”) is a widening of the cervix to allow instruments into the uterus. Curettage (“C”) is the scraping of the contents of the uterus.
Description Return to top
D and C, also called uterine scraping, is a fairly minor surgical procedure. The procedure may be performed in the hospital or in a clinic using general or local anesthesia.
The vaginal canal is held open by a speculum, and the opening to the uterus (cervix) may be anesthetized. The cervical canal is widened using a metal rod, and a curette (a metal loop on the end of a long, thin handle) is passed through the canal into the uterine cavity. The inner layer of the uterus (endometrium) is scraped away, and the tissue is collected for examination.
Sally “If you were truly Christian the hateful comments would stop with you. Instead, you prove what a hypocrite you are.”
Sally, since when do you like Christians?
btw: MK is one of the best Christians I know.
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SoMG “Carla Stream: How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doctor to murder your unborn baby? Death? Life in prison? How?”
SoMG, this is a frequent question the pro-aborts ask, I will give you my answer. Since I want unborn children recognized as the persons they truly are, the punishment should be consistant with existing laws if one murdered their born child. In reality though, even Mothers guilty of murdering their born infants only get a year in jail or probabtion.
So you think Carla should be punished as if she had murdered an already-born baby?
Carla, you wrote: “The pain and shame of an abortion can only brought into the light by the healing hand of Christ. ”
In that case, maybe we should warn the patients to avoid Christianity. That way they won’t feel shame and pain!
Aw Sally,
I’ve offended your delicate nature? Sorry.
But SoMG and I have an ongoing hate/hate relationship and I’m pretty sure he would have been disappointed if I hadn’t commented. I was too lazy to look up a Dr. Seuss quote and fell back into a bad habit…this should make up for it.
Carla Stream: How do you think you should be punished for hiring a doctor to murder your unborn baby?
*
Death? Life in prison? How?
The pain and shame of my abortion had made me an angry, bitter, hateful person. I was pro choice!! I had one so that made it right, right?? Jesus healed me from the pain and shame of my abortion as only He can. I am forgiven and set free. He is the only reason I can type out my story and tell others.
Yes, warn patients(?)to avoid Christianity. It will make it that much more attractive.
The “how shall Carla be punished?” question makes no sense to me. I listened to the pro choice rhetoric and did exactly what you said to do. Get an abortion. It’s safe and legal.
“So you think Carla should be punished as if she had murdered an already-born baby?”
murder is illegal SoMG. Now, with unborn children, many women are duped into believing abortion is OK. So, the abortion industry should be found guilty into mis-leading pregnant women.
Carla,
For the record, I don’t really mean “off with your head”…I often quote Dr. Seuss because SoMG has a fondness for him and Lewis Carroll because SoMG doesn’t have a fondness for him.
Personally I think you should be applauded not punished.
I believe in discipline, not punishment. Punishment is making someone pay for their wrongdoing. Discipline is getting them to regret and stop doing it.
You already regret your “choice” and have had a beautiful change of heart, so there is no need for discipline. And I have no desire to “punish” you or any other woman.
Carla, it’s so hard for some women to even grasp that concept. Give it to Christ, that is. I am so glad that you were able to. I commend you for being brave enough to come and talk about it.
Thank you MK and heather. Peace.
“Hal, no question about it – it’s that way for many people. One definitely pro-life family of in-laws of mine had three miscarriages along the way, ending up with three children. The kids are now 10, 8, and 5.
All the pregnancies were wanted, wanted to a high degree, and the miscarriages were sad, but it’s nothing like if one of the kids was lost now.”
Bethany: Doug, did you experience the miscarriage yourself, firsthand? How do you know how they feel, Doug? Do you have some kind of astounding telepathic power to be able to know exactly what goes on in their minds, to know the limits of their grief over their child lost? If not, don’t you think it might be a little presumptuous to assume that they only grieved a little?
Just a little hint for you, Doug. I didn’t tell any of my friends about how I felt. I bottled it up when in public or around friends, and even family. The only place I have ever really expressed my feelings is to my husband, and to my friends over the internet, where it is much easier to write to express yourself through writing. If someone (IRL) asked me (when I was still grieving hard over the loss), “how have you been feeling after your miscarriage, Bethany”, guess what I tell them, “Oh I’m okay.” It was automatic. I didn’t want drag them down with me!
Just because someone tells you they’re okay, doesn’t always mean they are. Much of the time, it means they simply don’t want to burden you with their problems.
Oh for Pete’s sake, Bethany. I didn’t say “only grieved a little.” My sister-in-law made no secrets about it. There was considerable grief. It actually increased a little when some doctors were thinking that perhaps her body was rejecting female embryos (if such a thing really does happen…?) She really wanted a girl. Their third child is a girl, so it came out well.
What I said is true – while the miscarriages were not wanted and were sad indeed, it’d be nothing like losing one of their kids that they have now.
Doug
Elizabeth: I, like you, can not understand Hal or Doug’s logic on this matter. Maybe because it’s just not logical but that’s neither here nor there. Anyway, my mother had my brother when she was about 7 1/2 months and he died due to spina bifida (he never developed a brain) and people in my dad’s family would say stuff like this ALL the time to her. The day after she lost the baby, the nurse came in all bubbly and goes “So, what did you have?” and my mom said, “My baby died last night.” This was ironically also at Christ Hospital where she lost him. I guess they have trouble reading charts there too. My dad’s mom would say “Oh don’t worry, you can have more children!” I can not believe people say such ridiculous things. Like the birth of another child takes away the child that they lost, in the womb or out. I would imagine it is almost harder to lose something you never got a chance to know. You will always wonder what they would have grown up to be, or what they would have been like. I imagine that is horrible. For people to be THAT insensitive about it is just so annoying to me. Again, thank you for giving some insight into this matter..it is very helpful I hope for people who don’t quite grasp how hard it is.
You’re pretending it has to be one way or the other, Elizabeth, and that’s where you’re wrong. There is no “logic” that it has to be one way or another. Neither Hal nor I is saying there has to be.
Nobody is saying that you or a given person should feel any certain way. It’s seeing that for many people, a miscarriage is nowhere near as bad as losing a born child would be. Again, many people, not all people.
One thing I really disagree on is where you say you imagine it is almost harder to lose something you never got a chance to know. To me this is almost certainly false for almost everybody.
If a woman has had one miscarriage, and has one ten year old child, would she give up the ten year old if it could be “magically” made that the other pregnancy would have been continued and that the baby would live? I sure don’t think so.
Doug
If a woman has had one miscarriage, and has one ten year old child, would she give up the ten year old if it could be “magically” made that the other pregnancy would have been continued and that the baby would live? I sure don’t think so.
Doug, that’s a false analogy. That’s like saying that mourning a toddler is less sad than mourning a 10 year old, and the reason for that being, “if a woman has a 10 year old child, would she give up the 10 year old child if it could magically be made that her dying 3 year old could live”?
I mean, come on! Do you really think that kind of analogy is acceptable? No woman who loved her children would give up either of her children to save her other children. It’s preposterous.
BOTH miscarriage and loss of a born child are tragic! Have a heart!
And by the way, I have been holding this in for a long time, but your post today about how you are claiming we “give up” on discussions really aggravated me, because it is simply not true.
Please stop posting in the archives simply to get the “last word”. No one except for me probably will even see your last two posts, and you know that. For once I saved this page in the bookmarks because I knew that you would do it and I wanted to be ready to call you on it. I have seen you do this before, a few times, by accident (when I was searching the archives for something).
It is unfair to go into the archives way after the topics been bumped down off the front page, to get a last word after people don’t even know the conversation is still being continued. If you’re going to do that, the least you could do is post a link to this page on a newer topic and say, hey guys, I just responded to your post in there. It would be a much more honest way to do it, if you feel you must continue the discussion. We are more than willing to continue the discussion- as long as we know the discussion still exists. Capiche?