American Right to Life response
Pastor Bob Enyart of American Right to Life has responded to my post yesterday in part lamenting ARTL’s corporate – seemingly sole – strategy of denegrating fellow pro-lifers.
I welcome the opportunity this forum presents to dialogue. Here is Pastor Enyart’s response in its entirety. I have only broken up paragraphs for easier reading.
American RTL Reply to Jill Stanek, re: Judging Motives
Jill, in yesterday’s blog your comments are critical of American RTL but thank you for writing them. We all need to ask God to search our hearts, and we appreciate you giving us a reminder to do so, and we will.
Let me start by…
…defending you, when you judged Rick Warren in that article you linked to, writing, “Warren said he invited Obama to speak at his conference because they both want to stop AIDS,” which you characterized as “Ludicrous. Warren certainly knows ends don’t justify means,” and then you brilliantly exposed Obama’s policies that would further spread HIV.
At American RTL, when an article or press release is going through the editorial and review process, I’ve seen the officers take special care over any statement referring to motives, and stop the presses, and carefully weigh the matter.
For example, World Magazine republished a fabrication of Steve Ertelt of LifeNews.com that George Bush “nominated 20 pro-life judges.” John Lofton of the American View led the effort to get Ertelt and World Magazine publisher Joel Belz and reporter Lynn Vincent to correct the record for their readers, all three refused, and that story line that Ertelt invented, “Bush nominates 20 pro-life judges,” turned up over 100 times throughout our trusting pro-life community.
Christians accepted this even though George W. Bush’s first campaign promise (Washington Post 6-15-99; 10-3-00 debate; etc.) was that he would ignore the issue of abortion when nominating judges. His code words to Republican pro-choice voters: “I have no litmus test,” which turned out to be one campaign promise that he has kept.
Examples abound where Christian and pro-life leaders can accurately judge partisan and Warren motives, and Jill, I’ve seen you and ARTL officers do so accurately. If there is a case where a false judgment is made, it should be identified and corrected.
There is no scriptural prohibition against judging motives. It is not wrong to judge the motives of bin Laden, nor Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, or the National Council of Churches.
Judging motives is simply more difficult than judging actions. Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24) and He praised a man (Luke 7:43) who could “rightly judge” a matter of the heart. Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15?16).
Jill, we appreciate you defending the concept of judgment against the false teaching of an absolute “judge not.”
But “judge not” doesn’t refer specifically to motives, for in that passage the Lord went on. “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to [judge, i.e., to] remove the speck out of your brother’s eye” (Mat. 7:5). Even if this were only about motives, then the Lord would have then been teaching, first judge your own motives correctly, and then you can judge the motives of others. But Jesus directly explains Himself. He wasn’t saying, Don’t judge motives, He was saying, regarding whatever we judge, don’t judge as a hypocrite. Judge rightly is not some guy’s name.
But is it ever justified to judge fellow Christians, and even leaders? Paul harshly rebuked the Apostle Peter in Galatians 2, even calling Peter a “hypocrite” and saying that he was not being, “straightforward about the truth of the Gospel.” Yikes.
Thankfully, Peter heeded Paul’s warning. Today, Billy Graham and Pat Robertson say the most wicked things justifying the murder of innocent children, and they are not held accountable by any of the top Christian and pro-life leaders.
Why? Answers to such questions often get to motives, and it is the heart that God is concerned most about, and we cannot restore the pro-life movement to a Christian foundation without getting to the heart of the matter.
Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20) and if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44). Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ, for as the New Testament says, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:30), and in a parable about Himself Jesus warned, “But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).
Jill, this battle we are all in goes far deeper than the slaughter of innocent children. The eternal souls of billions of people stand in the balance. In the Body of Christ, there is room for mercy, and grace, and compassion; there is no room for Rick Warren’s or James Bopp’s moral relativism, legal positivism and secular humanism.
Thank you for considering our press release about ARTL’s role in Romney being forced out of the primary, and in the passing of the ‘old guard’ of pro-life leaders.
Jill, while it is not wrong to judge motives, there was nothing in that release that judged motives. The closest thing to the judging of motives was ARTL pointing out that National Right To Life is directed by lawyers who promote legal positivism (which is moral relativism and secular humanism), by which the inalienable (non-transferable) God-given right to life is viewed as a second-tier negotiable matter and not an absolute standard.
Our Christian leaders defend lower court judges when they rule to keep legal even late-term abortion as Gary Bauer, Jay Sekulow and Dr. James Dobson have defended Samuel Alito for ruling to keep PBA legal in New Jersey, because he was following “precedent,” when in reality, he was violating a much older and absolutely binding precedent, God’s enduring command, Do not murder.
By the way, this position of our pro-life leaders made them advocates for BOTH SIDES of that case, supporting the NJ legislature’s ban, AND Planned Parenthood’s suit claiming it violated precedent. Moral relativism leads men in circles.
You wrote that, “The problem with ARTL is it doesn’t inspire. Its press release is indicative of its personality. Its focus is on slashing and burning our side. It only states who it opposes, not supports.”
From its inception, American RTL has had a list of pro-life heroes on its homepage at AmericanRTL.org including Alan Keyes, HLI’s Rev. Tom Euteneur, ALL’s Judie Brown, Dr. Charles Rice of Notre Dame Law School, U.S. Rep. Bob Dornan, Cal Zastrow of Michigan Citizen’s for Life, Rev. Flip Benham of Operation Rescue/Save America, and dozens of others.
There are plenty of leaders ARTL admires and we will go for counsel to the leaders who oppose child killing regulations and any law that ends with, “and then you can kill the baby.”
Jill, judgment begins “at the house of God” (1 Pet. 4:17), but we believers will judge not only World Magazine, but the entire world! “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Cor. 6:2?5).
Notice that Christians should judge their brethren now, and one day “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, “if the world will be judged by you…” God the Judge delegates judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” Then and now, believers should “judge… according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said.
The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4). If God were the only judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1Tim. 5:24a). But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1Tim. 5:24b). The human judges will already have been aware of the public sins of notorious men.
But they will not learn of private sins and those of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this. For he said “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14?15).
The Lord with His saints will judge the world! Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it…” (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34?35).
God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).
When Columbine dad Brian Rohrbough (also Stanek poll 2007 Pro-lifer of the Year) was recommended to be the president of American RTL, the 30 men and women assembled at that pro-life leaders summit concurred.
Brian’s slain son, Danny, murdered at Columbine high school is now in heaven. We have it on scriptural authority that Danny does not now have a forgiving attitude but is judgmental toward his unrepentant murderers.
How do we know that? A People magazine photo in Nov. 1999 shows his family and friends with a sign quoting Revelation 6:10 in which martyred Christians in heaven, no longer carrying the burden of the flesh nor any false spirituality, ask God to “avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth.”
Jesus said, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24). On the night of the Amish school murders Mr. Rohrbough told Katie Couric of CBS News, “We [our godless public schools] teach there are no absolutes, no right or wrong. And I assure you the murder of innocent children is always wrong, including by abortion.”
Brian takes it personally when people defend those who authorize the murder of innocent children. Of course we should not stay silent, as do so many leaders, when Pat Robertson defends China’s forced abortion on CNN.
But Jill, how do you confront him on such a severe infraction and not come across as stern? In Galatians 2:11-14 Paul describes his own severe criticism of Peter. Of course such rebuke occurs throughout the Old and New Testaments, and the critical one easily comes across as the bad guy.
National RTL’s general counsel and long-time political architect James Bopp joined Mitt Romney’s campaign to deceive pro-lifers into supporting Romney, who has been recently and aggressively pro-abortion, and two years after his political “pro-life conversion,” Romney allocated funds to kill Massachusetts children in elective abortions.
That program continues Romney’s wicked purpose to this very moment and NRTL tried to cover it up. In light of that reality, a debate among believers on judging the motives of the pro-life industry is long overdue. To wit: NRTL does not inform sincere pro-lifers of such vile acts but they work to disguise actions that betray the wickedness of many politicians they support.
Jill, again, thanks for your concern. If ARTL has wrongly judged a motive, please bring that to our attention, and we will carefully consider the merits of the claim.
Bob Enyart
Spokesman, American Right To Life
Mr. Enyart makes a very articulate case for his organization and his publication. I have no comment on the theological perspective he presents, but I still agree in general terms with Jill that Pro-Life leaders ought not to attack other Pro-Lifers on matters that pertain strictly to the Pro-Life cause itself. And I don’t consider the movement to protect unborn children to be the exclusive domain of any religion or creed. I believe abortion to be a moral problem first and foremost.
Dear Doyle,
I think that as pro-lifers, we have a tendency to lose our perspective while in the heat of the battle… ARTL is not “attacking” other pro-lifers, but they are “attacking” a false belief within the pro-life community which says it is okay to sacrifice some children in order to save the some of the children… If Christians truly believe God’s Word, then why would they ever agree to compromising on saving even one human life? God is very clear on what murder is and the penalty for shedding blood. Let’s get our focus back on God, His Word, and stop the situational ethics in the pro-life movement.
Within the past three weeks, Bob Enyart has arranged the disruption of a Mitt Romney rally in Denver, and has viciously attacked Ron Paul. He has denounced AARP as a “criminal organization” and the Girl Scouts of America a “lesbian organization”.
I won’t bother you with his last twenty years of hate speech, as the past 20 days should give you a flavor of what he is about.
I am sure he will continue to be a “uniter” in the pro-life movement. LOL
Romney has always been aggressively pro-abortion until he began his run for President. He’s lying so he can the conservative vote. I have no doubt of that.
Ron Paul is unwittingly pro-abortion, because his God is States Rights. He believes it’s okay if New York wants to kill children. Would he think it’s okay for Georgia to legalize slavery? I must wonder, based on the vehemence of his States Rights beliefs, which extend to his every single policy.
There is a Christian radio show by Ray Comfort called “Way of the Master Radio” (may of you are familiar with it), where these street preachers will challenge unbelievers on their basic concepts, starting with “Do you believe you’re a good person?” By “attacking” their presumptions, they often get the person to realize they are following philosophies they cannot support, and when their philosophical grounding gets muddied, the street preacher is able to show them the Truth of God’s Word, and sometimes even lead them to Christ. If nothing else, he’s made them think.
Bob is following this philosophy within the pro-life movement. Pro-lifers, as Angela says, have been lulled into some very unsound practices and philosophies. Bob and everybody else at ARTL challenges these, and makes us think.
We wouldn’t ever think about our basic assumptions if someone approached us with a relativistic, “everyone’s right, everyone’s good” style suggestion. We challenge our own assumptions when someone buttonholes us, asks us to defend our assumptions, and if we can’t…
That’s where we find Truth. The pro-life community needs a good dose of it, and that’s ARTL’s role at the moment. Once people realize (as Judge Roy Moore has, for instance) that they were wrong before, they join the movement behind Personhood.
Congratulations Bob for proving Jill’s point that it is impossible for ARTL to justify its existence without attacking other pro-life groups and people. I’m just glad I got top billing in defending President Bush’s pro-life judicial picks!
LifeNews.com was mentioned before your attacks on National Right to Life, Dr. James Dobson, Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council, the ACLJ, World Magazine, and countless other pro-life Christians and groups.
I appreciate you putting me in the company of such outstanding groups and people. They’ve been pressing the cause of Christ and the humanity of the unborn for far longer than my own involvement of 16 years and I’m honored to be mentioned alongside them for promoting the pro-life perspective. Thank you!
It’s about Truth, Steve, not “rah-rah”.
Steve, can you provide evidence of just one ruling by one of these so-called “pro-life” judges that doesn’t actually recommend the killing of unborn children, just done a little differently?
If you can find one, I bet you can’t find two! Please cite sources for the actual ruling so we can all read the language of the ruling. Remember — no “we affirm the language of Roe v. Wade, but…”. ACTUAL pro-life rulings!
Sorry Robert, I’m not willing to play the “paint pro-life people as pro-abortion because their strategy is different” game. Enough with the attacks and attempts to lure people into false characterizations. You disagree with the Supreme Court’s decision upholding a prohibition on a gruesome abortion procedure and I don’t. These points have been argued before and I don’t have the time nor the desire to redo this debate.
As an agnostic prolife activist (yes, there is such a thing) I embrace efforts to fight the abortion culture of death on a “secular” basis. I think there is more than ample grounds to proclaim the indecency of the elective killing of unborn children without having to use scriptural references. I’ve been doing that for about 5 years now, both online and locally.
I do agree that many of the most prominent figures in our society (who self-identify as prolife) are doing less than their utmost to protect the unborn, and I have gone on record with my disagreements with them. I will not, however, attack any of them personally. Rather, I will simply state my reasons for disagreeing with their philosophy or tactics, and go about my business of fighting for the unborn in my own way.
I think that if we all tried to focus on who the real enemy is, and just ignored those who stand idly by on the sidelines, we could get a lot more done.
Very convenient, Steve — when you have no evidence to provide, you claim “I won’t play this game anymore,” and act as if you’re right, you just refuse to prove it. You’re the one playing the game, and it’s seriously harming the right-to-life cause. The Emperor has no clothes. NRTL has negated the “right to life” in the minds of our judges, and it’s tragic. We need to do something about it, not stick our heads in the sand and act as if nothing is wrong.
Doyle, thank you for your efforts at opposing the killing of unborn children. It’s commendable (and so is most of what Steve’s doing). I do believe there is an ethical argument to be made for Personhood that need not utilize religion.
But Doyle — Please go tell NRTL not to oppose our efforts to support Personhood in Colorado. We’re seeing their tracks everywhere — they’re the ones working against legitimate pro-life efforts in Colorado, South Dakota and Georgia (they killed Georgia’s proposed amendment). And we now know they’ve been doing it since the 1980s. They started this fight against pro-lifers, not us. And they continue it to this day, using their millions against us. (correction: YOUR millions!)
Robert, thanks for validating my refusal to fall into your trap. We’ve been around the PBA debate millions of times, my position on it is clear and has been put forth in public. I have plenty of evidence but what I don’t have is the desire to be baited into another ad hominem attack.
And as far as NRLC killing personhood bills is concerned, they’ve done no such thing. In fact NRLC’s state affiliate is behind the Georgia proposal.
They’ve issued a legal opinion about the strategy of such proposals and have done NOTHING in public nor spent ONE PENNY to defeat bills or ballot proposals in any state. Enough with the lies and agree to disagree on the strategy. Your false attacks on pro-life groups are what is really hurting the pro-life movement. Quit spending so much time attacking me and pro-life groups and go after Obama, Planned Parenthood and their friends. Do the babies a favor and STOP!
Dear Mr. Ertelt: What “false attacks” has Bob Enyart made on pro-life groups? This is a serious charge. Please specify. Thank you.
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
John, thanks for extending the bait, but I’ll pass. I’m working on trying to follow Ephesians 4:29 and would appreciate you doing the same.
I don’t need to bait you into ad hominem attacks, Steve. Everyone here knows that anytime anything about Colorado Right to Life, or ARTL is posted, it’s only a matter of time before Steve Ertelt shows up and tells us how much he hates them, and how everyone else should hate them too.
I can do nothing against your lies, Steve. I hope you’re just stating as fact what you don’t know for sure, rather than actively lying to protect NRTL.
If I’m wrong about NRTL killing Georgia’s amendment, I’ll retract my statement, but I’m pretty sure I saw they had lawyers lobby against it, which costs thousands of dollars. We know for a fact NRTL is actively opposing the Colorado initiative, and if they’re using nothing but staff time, they’re still spending money on it. That’s Truth.
Well Robert, this “debate” has devolved the way they all do. This is why I don’t care to comment much anymore when asked to get into it.
I don’t hate you or hate ARTL. What I hate is this division, this animosity, and this hatred. What I hate is how Satan has good pro-life Christian people doing his bidding by tearing down the rest of the pro-life community.
We’re on the verge of having another 35 years of legal abortions and 50 million more unborn children slaughtered and we too busy atacking each other to do anything about it!
We should all be ashamed of ourselves for spending so much time bashing each other that Planned Parenthood is literally getting away with murder.
I’m not going to waste my time or yours continuing this thread. We disagree on strategy, not on principle so let’s have the courtesy and respect for our brother in Christ and fellow pro-lifer to not impugn their motives or atack their intent.
I don’t care to win this debate, I care to win the hearts and minds of Americans who embrace this culture of death. That’s our battle.
Get back to the work of saving babies and quit wasting your time attacking others. I’ll do the same.
Steve, to clarify, Jim Bopp wrote a 10-1/2 page memo specifically against the GA personhood amendment. As you know, Bopp is NRLC’s counsel. He distributed it everywhere, including Focus on the Family. It was quoted and used by opponents in GA:
http://www.personhood.net/docs/BoppMemorandum1.pdf
You say NRLC is doing nothing “in public,” which is parsing a bit, I think. Bopp is out front on this.
And “in private” is another matter. I myself have witnessed 2 of NRLC’s top brass speak against it.
Steve, if you are content NOT to attack ARTL or Colorado Right to Life anytime you see the name, then I will be content to leave you to write your normally useful Lifenews articles, which I do appreciate.
I was just pointing out some apparent hypocrisy in what you were saying you wanted. I don’t want ARTL attacked, or accused of lying, without evidence — not from you or anyone. Jill didn’t say anything about lying — that was your line.
Thanks!
Jill, yes NRLC opposes the timing of the personhood amendments until the Supreme Court has a pro-life majority and they won’t be immediately overturned and declared unconstitutional. But other than laying out that position in a legal memorandum, NRLC has done nothing to actively oppose these personhood amendments, contrary to the claims made here and elsewhere by ARTL supporters.
NRLC hasn’t spent one dime on television or radio ads, email campaigns, phone calls (or any other activity it would normally use to promote pro-life legislation or elect pro-life candidates) to oppose these personhood bills.
Moreover, NRLC has not done what some pro-life groups have, as recently as just days ago, by publicly lobbying lawmakers at a legislative hearing against these proposals. It has been content to agree to disagree on the strategy and I am asking ARTL and personhood supporters to do the same. That was why I said “in public” — not to be sly or witty.
NRLC may have a different strategic position and may outline that in a memo to give others another perspective to consider, but it has not done what some folks criticizing it have done, and that’s to launch public attacks in opposition and imply those supporting the personhood bills are not pro-life.
(As an aside, what’s wrong with NRLC officials or others having a private view against the strategy? At least they’re keping their views private and not launching public attacks! I know of numerous pro-life groups that disagree with this approach, including people you know very well, but they’re not going out in public and bashing it, that’s the key.)
Let’s disagree as to the best approach to end abortions the soonest, but respect the fact that both sides of this debate are pro-life and want to get to the day unborn children are protected by law ASAP.
LifeNews.com has done that and we’ve covered these personhood bills more often and more fully than any other news agency without impugning the motives or intent of the folks behind them. All I’m asking is for ARTL and others to do the same.
Ertelt: “NRLC hasn’t spent one dime on … phone calls (or any other activity it would normally use to promote pro-life legislation or elect pro-life candidates) to oppose these personhood bills.”
We know this to be inaccurate. I know it personally to be inaccurate! At least one Diocese here was contacted by NRTL and asked to oppose the Personhood measure, and that Diocese then called a Grand Junction RTL branch and asked them not to support it.
Your blind trust and faith in National makes you unable to consider these facts even as possibilities, and so you call us liars! You’re a thorough hypocrite.
Robert, I know there have been no mass calling campaigns in any state. That’s for certain and that’s what I’m talking about.
I don’t know about this diocese or RTL chapter. Maybe someone contacted them, maybe they called and asked for information, I have no idea and so I’m not willing to speculate when I don’t have the facts.
All I can tell you is that NRLC’s efforts on stating their position on the personhood bills has been very minimal — espcially in comparison to the public attacks brought forth by groups like ARTL.
But your haste in condemning me speaks volumes. If you’re going to attack me and call me a hypocrite, don’t be one yourself and not condemn other pro-life groups who attack other pro-life efforts.
Again, enough, this is just getting ridiculous.
Yes, this IS ridiculous! You just conceded that maybe NRTL is working actively behind the scenes to oppose our measure, which is all ARTL has claimed. There was no claim of “mass calling campaigns” — that would be silly, the process isn’t even that far along yet.
And yet you call ARTL (wrongly) liars!
You’re the one tearing apart good pro-lifers with vicious attacks, Steve. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Robert, I haven’t conceded anything. I’ve said NRLC isn’t launching public attacks on the personhood bills and that’s the truth. Still, whatever NRLC is or isn’t doing pales in comparison to the public attacks by ARTL and others on NRLC and other pro-life groups and people. There’s just not even any comparison.
But Robert, I will pray for you. You’re really letting your anger and rage get the best of you and it’s becoming more apparent in these posts. You’re better than that.
This is my last post because I don’t want to cause a brother to stumble by continuing what has devolved into a hate-fest. May God bless you and keep you.
I live in Georgia. I testified, in my capacity as a citizen of Georgia, before the subcommittee holding hearings on the HLA bill. (I didn’t testify as to the merits of the Amendment, by the way; only as to the necessity for these Representatives to do their Constitutional duty, and let the people vote on it.)
I was embarrassed and ashamed, every time the so-called “conservative” chairman brought up NRLC’s (Bopp’s), the AUL’s, and the Atlanta Catholic archdiocese’s opposition to the HLA. NRLC, AUL and groups like them are doing an extreme disservice to the cause of saving babies when they give ammunition like that to the pro-abortion forces. And believe me, that ammunition was brought up again, and again, and again, in these hearings. Indeed, their stances and actions are the specific excuse the chairman used to kill the bill.
I was so thankful when the lawyer from the Thomas More Law Center stood up to testify, and made this statement for clarity: “We believe that it’s never too early to do the right thing.” Amen.
Dear friends,
Let me set the record straight.
NRLC has NOT openly lobbied against our Human Life Amendment. They have graciously remained silent and practised a “laissez-faire” policy. They recommended against it, but did nothing to pressure us to desist. Our dealings with them on this matter have been very cordial. We at GRTL appreciate the resources and support which NRLC gives to us in fighting on behalf of the unborn . . . we just agree to disagree on strategy. So far … our strategy has worked quite well in Georgia.
The same can NOT be said for the Georgia Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Archbishop himself came to the Statehouse and met with senior pro-life Republicans. Atty. Frank Mulcahy, spoke against the bill during its hearing last week. He represented the GA CCB. Initially the Archdiocese swore that they would stay neutral. They were anything but!
Clark Forsyth, Pres. of Americans United for Life, came personally to Georgia where he also was introduced to high Republican pro-life officials and distributed a paper that condemned the national Personhood movement. Some of his criticism was not even valid to the Georgia HLA. Unfortunately, our “pro-office” Republicans heard what they wanted to hear and cited his treatise, Jim Bopp’s Memorandom and the Bishops statement as THE REASON they tabled the bill.
Dan Becker
Pres., Georgia Right to Life
The anonymous coward said:
“Within the past three weeks, Bob Enyart has arranged the disruption of a Mitt Romney rally in Denver, and has viciously attacked Ron Paul. He has denounced AARP as a “criminal organization” and the Girl Scouts of America a “lesbian organization”.
I won’t bother you with his last twenty years of hate speech, as the past 20 days should give you a flavor of what he is about.”
Yeah, ARTL protested a Mitt Romney rally when he came into their backyard in the Denver area and tried to deceive people in the Denver area in thinking that he was a pro-life presidential candidate. So, Enyart and the gang did a great service to the Denver area in being there and pointing out to the ignorant supporters of Romney the FACTS of Romney’s support for abortion as Massachusetts governor.
No one has attacked Ron Paul unless you are twisted enough to equate QUOTING RON PAUL’s OWN WORDS with attacking him. When quoting someone’s own words accurately you are not “attacking” them. Enyart and the gang have done the USA a great service by showing how far Ron Paul is from actually being pro-life. Ron Paul is in fact PRO-CHOICE STATE-BY-STATE.
There is much evidence to support the claim that AARP is a criminal organization with the current average amount the government spends per senior citizen at $27,000 a year.
And there is evidence that shows the Girl Scouts, aside from selling lots of unhealthy cookies, do promote abortion, lesbianism and radical feminism. Listen here for the info http://www.kgov.com/bel_56kbps/20080211
Steve Ertelt claimed:
“You disagree with the Supreme Court’s decision upholding a prohibition on a gruesome abortion procedure and I don’t. These points have been argued before and I don’t have the time nor the desire to redo this debate.”
False. You DEFINITELY have the time to find solid evidence to base the claims in your stories upon. That’s your current business, right? At the very least you could outsource the effort and ask someone who is a lawyer you are friendly with or someone like that to find just ONE “pro-life” ruling that is not just another minor variance of abortion on demand.
Right?
Zeke, I have done so. What I don’t have time to do is rehash old debates. As I said, I’m not going to spend time that should be devoted to saving babies to endless games of oneupmanship withy you. I encourage you to do the same.
NOPE!
I’m gonna go through these allegedly “pro-life judges” decisions on the bench that you speak so highly of and after doing that I will show just how vile their pro-abortion decisions actually are.
ANY JUDGE THAT DENIES THE PERSONHOOD OF THE PREBORN IS NOT PRO-LIFE
And such is the state of the pro-life movement and why we continue to lose — people who would rather attack someone else and make a point than make a difference. Satan is at work again…
PS I’m done posting in this thread. Zeke, I couldn’t care less what other ways you’ll attack me, I won’t be responding. Read Ephesians 4:29.
Its called KNOWING THE TRUTH and GETTING THE FACTS STRAIGHT Steve!
You made a claim. You didn’t back it up with actual court decisions. You need court decisions or opinions as a necessary source required to make such a statement.
Since you won’t do the work necessary I will do it. And I am more than willing to use my time to do it.
Steve Ertelt said:
“Zeke, I couldn’t care less what other ways you’ll attack me, I won’t be responding.”
Stop your damn whining and act like a man Steve!
Zeke,
Thanks for confirming Bob Enyart’s divisive attacks.
Ironically, Bob claims to be having trouble raising money to continue his hate “ministry”.
Could it be that since he has alienated everyone except a few crazies like you, he has trouble getting donations?
Get back on your meds, and have a good life.
I hope everyone here pays close attention to Mr. Ertelt’s method of operation here. He accuses Bob Enyart of “false attacks” on pro-life groups, a serious charge, in fact a sin, if true. But, since Ertelt gives no details here, I ask him to specify, a reasonable request. But, to him, the request to specify is “bait.” Well, no it is not, unless, of course, you are a lying fish afraid of being hooked. I say IF you are such a fish. I’m making no charge here. Then, after refusing to specify, no doubt because a specific example could be checked out, Ertelt refers me, and others, to Eph 4:29 which, of all things, prohibits “corrupt communications” from proceeding from our mouths!! Wow! I’ve also been reading the commandment which says: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” Has Ertelt done this to Enyart? I do not know. But, I do know that Ertelt has not yet given us even one example to back up his serious charge so we might know if what he says is true or a lie. I wonder why he gives us not one example? — just one. I do know this from personal experience: Ertelt is a dishonest journalist. He once wrote a lying piece about Bush nominating so-called “pro-life” judges with no evidence at provided to prove the judicial nominees were, in fact, pro-life. Go to our web site and read this story, please. http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=324.
It tells us a lot about Ertelt and what it tells us is not good. Finally, a rule-of-thumb-reminder: When you ask a liar to specify, and he doesn’t, the odor you smell IS his burning britches.
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
May I introduce a layman’s perspective as a rank and file pro-lifer from day one post Roe? The above (passionate) discussion is built upon years of progress in the pro-life movement. We have come together and built organizations from the grass roots upward that have thrived. We have help to elect hundreds upon hundreds of office holders in every state of the union up to and including the presidency. Some have been phenomenal pro-life stalwarts. Others may not be as engaged but nevertheless are usually reliable supporters of the cause. Quite a few large pro-life organizations, with impressive membership rolls and budgets to match, are working 24/7 to advance the cause of life. These tremendous successes have resulted in victories, obviously not the one we all want (yet), but victories nonetheless. That we haven’t won the “big one” simply underscores the enormity of the modern embrace of the culture of death.
Like many others who have held positions in organizations, I have learned that most progress IS incremental. This is undeniable. I do not believe the stuggle against abortion can be any different. We work and we work some more and we take small victories when we can get them. One day, God willing, all of this will come to fruition and the years of toil, prayers, and sacrifices will come together in a major victory for life.
There is much evidence to support the claim that AARP is a criminal organization with the current average amount the government spends per senior citizen at $27,000 a year.
And there is evidence that shows the Girl Scouts, aside from selling lots of unhealthy cookies, do promote abortion, lesbianism and radical feminism. Listen here for the info http://www.kgov.com/bel_56kbps/20080211
Posted by: zeke13:19 at February 28, 2008 3:52 PM
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Zeke nailed it.
Those Girl Scouts fatten us up with those cookies making it way easier for senior citizens to run us down with their mobility scooters.
As I read these comments, I am saddened. I am saddened because we waste our time pointing fingers instead of pointing women to crisis pregnancy centers. I am saddened because we relegate being pro-life to a certain faith or political viewpoint. Most of all, I am saddened because, by and large, the pro-life movement would rather do these things than actually help save babies.
Stop your sniveling Brian.
There’s 24 hours in a day and since some of us spent maybe 15 minutes of our day having a discussion on here you are “sad” because that small amount of time that we could have used for anything else (shaving, reading, whatever) was not spent on pro-life activism.
EARTH TO BRIAN!!
Talking about strategy is a huge part of pro-life activism!
I hope everyone here pays close attention to Mr. Ertelt
Robert Kyffin says: “But Doyle — Please go tell NRTL not to oppose our efforts to support Personhood in Colorado. We’re seeing their tracks everywhere — they’re the ones working against legitimate pro-life efforts in Colorado, South Dakota and Georgia (they killed Georgia’s proposed amendment).“
Yes Robert, I am familiar with, and oppose on principle the actions of the NRTL in assuming the mantle of the “great decider” of what tactics are most effective in the legislative and judicial arenas. I wish they would just do their “thing” and stop opposing the efforts of other prolifers. I think such actions only give comfort to our enemies, and do nothing to help babies.
Having said that, I will also add that some of their other efforts have paid off well for the prolife cause in general. For that reason, I’m not willing to go the “extra mile” and denounce them as enemies of the unborn. I think they are (sometimes) simply misguided allies who, not unlike the French in WW2, simply have allowed other things to cloud their vision.
And quite frankly I see this same “partial blindness” in many other prolife organizations as well, so they are not unique in that regard. We in the prolife movement are all human, and all subject to human weaknesses. It does us no good, and more importantly it does the babies no good to dwell on our honest differences.
Hey Jill Stanek. If you haven’t seen it yet here is the scan of page 19 from the Billy Graham Christian Worker’s Handbook where it gives support for abortion in cases of rape and incest.
http://www.atruechurch.info/grahamabortion.html
There’s 24 hours in a day and since some of us spent maybe 15 minutes of our day having a discussion on here you are “sad” because that small amount of time that we could have used for anything else (shaving, reading, whatever) was not spent on pro-life activism.
I don’t know, Zeke – sounds to me like you didn’t shave today, and you’re guilty about it…
Steven Ertelt posted, “Zeke, I have done so. What I don’t have time to do is rehash old debates. As I said, I’m not going to spend time that should be devoted to saving babies to endless games of oneupmanship withy you. I encourage you to do the same.”
John Lofton posted, “Ertelt refers me, and others, to Eph 4:29 which, of all things, prohibits ?corrupt communications? from proceeding from our mouths!! Wow! I?ve also been reading the commandment which says: ?Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”?
Gentleman and Ladies, I hereby nominate a promotion of Steven Ertelt to the post of Chief Evasive Officer, therefore vacating his position at Right to Life of Wyoming. PLEASE, before Steven drags this organization further into the pro-life “industry” abyss of fundraising for “and then you can kill the baby…”
God HELP us!
Doyle said: “Having said that, I will also add that some of their other efforts have paid off well for the prolife cause in general. For that reason, I’m not willing to go the “extra mile” and denounce them as enemies of the unborn. I think they are (sometimes) simply misguided allies who, not unlike the French in WW2, simply have allowed other things to cloud their vision.”
I don’t think you and I are that far off on this. I can concede NRTL has done “some” good for the pro-life movement. But I don’t think the good they’ve done outweighs the damage they’ve done.
When I say they’ve lied, it’s likely they are just terribly deluded, and blinded by their own rationalizations. But that’s far enough to be a lie — they’re like Al Gore in that their delusions cause them to tell untruths that they may yet believe to be true. But when the leader is mad, you don’t continue to follow. You set your own path, or follow someone who is willing to be a leader. That’s what ARTL is — a leader.
And I would not, from what I know so far, denounce NRTL as “enemies of the unborn” (as you said — though I’m 99% sure ARTL has not made that charge). What I and ARTL claim is that the effect of NRTL’s blindness and bullheadedness in pursuit of failed strategies and incompetent ignorance and rationalizations when faced with clear facts of that failure of their policies, still persist in those policies, and dare to call them “victories”!
When Moses came down from the mountain, and found Aaron (who he loved) as “leader” of the multitude who were worshiping a golden calf, he did not make nice with him. He did not rebuke him privately, and put on a smile so he wouldn’t lose face as a leader. Moses rebuked him and everyone else publicly. Moses was furiously angry! These people, who should have known better (not least, Aaron!) were doing that which was abominable in God’s eyes. And they had the knowledge to know it was abominable. Yet, Aaron had given in to the “wisdom of the world” and done what he felt was best at the time, which was to give the people the idol to worship, as they asked. Intentional disobedience to God? No. Stupid, insane disobedience? Yes! And because of that — for the crime of stupidity and ignorance, not for the crime of willful disobedience — the Bible HONORS Moses for his righteous ANGER!
That’s where we are today. The anger exhibited by ARTL is not petty anger. It’s not vengeful anger. It’s not diabolical anger. It’s RIGHTEOUS anger! We are ashamed of NRTL for their failures, and ashamed of ourselves for believing them (and donating to them!) for so long.
Is that so hard to understand? Even sympathize with?
But their anger is secondary. It may be very visible, but it’s certainly not their main purpose. Not the focus, even, of most of their energies, though I’ll admit from bits and pieces of what you’ve seen maybe that’s how it looks. I’ve seen things from the inside, and I’ve seen the passion of these people who are working hours every day in favor of Personhood.
The more I’ve thought about it, ARTL IS leading. They’re solidly behind the Personhood Initiative, which has every sign of succeeding in Colorado, and they’s providing leadership, talking points, and encouragement to anyone out there who supports Personhood.
That’s what we need in this movement. That’s what we are fortunate to have in ARTL.
I enjoyed reading the rest of these attacks but had to laugh and cry at the same time.
There’s little doubt now as to why the pro-life movement hasn’t been successful in stopping abortions. Satan has so many people wrapped up in this business of condemning pro-life people who do things differently that the entire pro-life movement is hurt as a result.
That you all attack pro-life groups and people with such viciousness and with more hate and venom than even Planned Parenthood is evidence that Satan has turned pro-life Christians against each other to stop us from saving God’s children from abortion. We should ALL be saddened by this and turn to true repentance for acting like Pharisees and trying to appear more worthy than our brother.
The fact of the matter is that none of us are more worthy or more pro-life than the other. Despite our different approaches, none of us has got it all together because we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
John, Robert, Zeke, after I ask that we look to the Biblical principle of encouraging and lifting up our brothers in Christ, you attack me further, encourage me to stop working to save God’s children and go on and on about how you’re supposedly more pro-life than me. I’m sorry brothers, but your righteousness is filthy rags in God’s eyes. No better than a whitewashed tomb.
Recall the debate within the disciples about who was the greatest. That’s what’s going on here and, to the Lord, it stinks. We’re called to save God’s children from the fire and yet all we’re doing is bashing each others. That’s obedience! lol
If you want to take my refusal to continue this ridiculous debate further as evidence that you’re right and I’m wrong, fine. But your piling on proves my point again and again that you’re only interested in your own personal glorification rather than doing the Lord’s ministry. Quit trying to make a point and focus on making a difference.
I’m through with debating you all on this. The Bible never asks us to debate until we’ve won our point or cut our opponent off at the knees. It calls on us to be servants of Christ and to carry His standard.
We’re called to teach and preach and baptize and build up the kingdom of God by winning souls through Christ. We don’t do that by piling on against a brother in Christ when we think we’re more right than him.
So no, I don’t plan on responding further and engaging in this silliness any longer. I’m firm in my convictions that the approach most of the pro-life movement is taking, myself included, is the best strategy to end abortion the soonest. And if you disagree, fine. But, in the end, I’m not concerned about being right, or proving you wrong, I’m concerned about my own honesty, integrity and my witness as a Christian and my faith in the Lord and I will continue to focus on being as faithful as possible. And when the time comes, my goal is not your approval, but the approval of God and I await the tell He tells me, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
With that, I’m going back to work. Back to the ministry God has called me to, which is protecting His children from abortion.
And if you attack me further here or in other forums, I will pray for you that God will focus your eyes on Him and not on me. I will pray that you (and I) follow the Biblical example of privately encouraging one another. We’re all going to fall and we need to lift up and support each other rather than trashing each other publicly with scorn and spite.
May God bless you and keep you.
The SCOTUS opinion that Steven Ertelt supports:
“The Attorney General concedes, and we agree, that if an abortion procedure does not involve the delivery of a living fetus to one of these “anatomical ‘landmarks’ “–where, depending on the presentation, either the fetal head or the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother–the prohibitions of the Act do not apply.”
This decision says it’s okay to kill the baby another way.
“…the overt act causing the fetus’ death must be separate from delivery. And the overt act must occur after the delivery to an anatomical landmark. This is because the Act proscribes killing “the partially delivered” fetus, which, when read in context, refers to a fetus that has been delivered to an anatomical landmark”
Kill the baby, then deliver it. Or deliver the baby just a little bit… then kill it.
“If a living fetus is delivered past the critical point by accident or inadvertence, the Act is inapplicable.”
Oopsies. You can kill it now.
“…an injection that kills the fetus is an alternative under the Act that allows the doctor to perform the procedure.
Here’s an idea. Stick a needle in the baby and kill it.
“Here the Act allows, among other means, a commonly used and generally accepted method (saline abortion), so it does not construct a substantial obstacle to the abortion right.”
Or better yet… burn him.
This 35-year-old strategy that Steve Ertelt and NRTL so strongly support has created this mess we’re in. Abortion is still legal. I’m fed up with these groups and it’s time (and necessary) to call them out on their failures because we now see the wicked results. The PBA is the poster-child of such results.
Taking issue with Steven Ertelt’s last, last post. Steven, you are loved and respected for your work for God’s unborn children. Sadly, you are also loved and respected by the very cause you endeavor to terminate, the very moment you give up on God’s commandment, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER. “Unwittingly” capitulating with an enemy as evil as Satan, kicks open the door for failure. You are quoted in your last post, “Satan has turned pro-life Christians against each other to stop us from saving God’s children from abortion.” Truthfully, it is our mighty God that has called us to be salt and light in this fight, standing on His truth, not man’s. Did God command us to not murder some babies so that others might get a voice in the Supreme Court one day, or legislation (man’s laws) to protect them? Pro-Life sidewalk counselors help save hundreds of babies from butchery every year, while the courts and legislators have not returned legal protection to one unborn child after some $250,000,000.00 was raised by the false hopes that man and money can stop this holocaust. That is a broken system and the pro-life industry needs to get out of the mailroom and take God’s commands to all people who will hear them. Sadly, you found enjoyment from these posts, and then claim we are controlled by Satan to attack those who we disagree with. Your words, not mine. Only God is in control of the life He gave me, not Satan who’s wicked temptations we can all choose to resist. The truth be known that God is shedding His light on a serious matter, and rubbing salt in some very open wounds. Show me one incrementalist pro-lifer that would sell everything he treasures, and then follow Christ to the doors of death at planned parenthood, and we will see a pro-lifer willing to trust only God and give his all for Christ, who gave His all.
Steve and Anonymous,
Bob is not hateful. He points us to the Bible and its principles. If we, ARTL are in error, please demonstrate what the error is. All of this is just emoting and lacks substance.
Living here in Colorado, working on the Personhood Amendment, I know firsthand that the Catholic diocese(s)and local activists were told by NRTL not to support this measure via the memo by Bopp. I have spoken personally with someone who felt compelled to not even put out an email supporting the measure after receiving this memo.
Even if it fails so be it.But, shouldn’t we do what is right? God did not call us to be successful but, faithful.
Where is your faith? If you believe in God and that nothing is impossible with God then we should charge ahead with His principles, grounded and girded in the truth and He can fight the battle for us. If you don’t believe He can do anything and that things are impossible with God then continue to follow man’s wisdom and fight the battle yourself.
Brett, don’t twist my words. They were enjoyable only in the sense that it’s a riot to see how obsessed a handful of people are in attacking me. It was sarcastic. I have never given up on Thall Shalt Not Murder and your accusations that I have without even knowing me personally to make that sort of value judgment is the kind of ad hominem attacks I was referring to in my post about focusing on God and lifting each other up. If you can’t back up your own point of view without attacking the motivesof the rest of us, then you seriously need to re-examine the state of your heart. Because, to me, it appears you’re more interested in attacking me and others than truly promoting the pro-life cause. I’ll pray for you that your focus is on things above not on appearing more righteous than your neighbor.
Lolita, I have demonstrated the errors repeatedly here and ni other forums. They’re been ignored or explained away. I have plenty of faith in God that he will restore legal protection for unborn children and do so on HIS time, not ours. The answer to prayer isn’t always yes and iesn’t always right now or on our schedule. Yes, it’s been 35 years, but yes I trust God to end abortion in the timeframe of His infinite wisdom, not mine.
Steve said, “Lolita, I have demonstrated the errors repeatedly here and ni other forums. They’re been ignored or explained away. I have plenty of faith in God that he will restore legal protection for unborn children and do so on HIS time, not ours. The answer to prayer isn’t always yes and iesn’t always right now or on our schedule. Yes, it’s been 35 years, but yes I trust God to end abortion in the timeframe of His infinite wisdom, not mine.”
Steve, maybe this is the time and God expects us to act and not just sit. Maybe He has given us an opportunity to act and we should do it. Instead of a group of men deciding now is not the time, how is that leaving it up to God?
SE says, I have plenty of faith in God that he will restore legal protection for unborn children and do so on HIS time, not ours.
That is really, REALLY messed up thinking. We human beings kill pre-born babies and Steve wants God to sort it out. NOW is the time for US to restore legal protection… not sitting back and waiting for God to do the work; and certainly not educating pro-lifers to wait for “the right time.” If ever anyone ever discusses “timing” within a pro-life strategy, tell them this…
…they’re wrong.
Taking issue, again, with Steven Ertelt’s last, last, last post. And I REPEAT: Steven, you are loved and respected for your work for God’s unborn children. Sadly, you are also loved and respected by the very cause you endeavor to terminate, the very moment you give up on God’s commandment, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER. Mr. Ertelt, God commands, You Shall Not Murder.
Do you infer that God meant some and not all? Yes, or No?
Do you support even one law that regulates which child can legally be terminated by which method? Yes, or No?
Do you believe today is the right time to end abortion? Yes, or No?
Do you believe a child in the womb is a human being from the very moment of conception? Yes, or No?
Mr. Ertelt, I have not, nor do I have reason to, or desire to twist your words. On this post, you’ve needed no help. The last time I was accused of being self righteous, was by a pro-abort at a home protest of an abortionist. So, where are you coming from? My opinion is that right to life in Wyoming means nothing more than men and laws can save babies in the womb. Well, just look at the results. …and then you can kill the baby, …and then you can kill the baby, …and then you can kill the baby…