Breaking news: Movement on Hialeah abortion/murder case
Story backdrop 1st (see sources here, here, and here for corroboration):
On July 20, 2006, a baby was allegedly aborted alive at A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, FL.
At least 2 witnesses saw clinic owner Belkis Gonzalez (pictured below left) cut the potentially viable (~23 weeks gestation) baby’s cord and put the baby in a biohazard bag with bleach inside.
An anonymous caller tipped off police, who searched the scene but could not find the dead baby. Nine days later the source called again, saying workers put the baby on the mill’s roof before the search but had now retrieved it. Police recovered the decomposed baby. The DNA matched her mother’s.
The Miami-Dade medical examiner, however, ruled the death “natural,” due to “extreme prematurity,” since no one could know exactly why she died. (This showed gross prejudice. If someone put a plastic bag with bleach inside over the head of a 94-year-old woman who was dying anyway, would the bagger still not be credited with murder?)
The mother, who experienced a change of heart at her baby’s delivery, hired the Thomas More Society, a pro-life law firm, to pursue a civil case. After a long delay, prosecutors handed the baby over for a 2nd autopsy.
This brings us 2 pieces of breaking news….
1. Two sources have confirmed to me that the FL Department of Health is pursuing revoking abortionist Pierre Renelique’s medical license. Clinic workers called Renelique to complete this abortion, but he never showed.
2. The 2nd autopsy results, by pathologist Abdullah Fatteh, are in and follow. Based on these results, I am told the state attorney plans to approach Miami-Dade medical examiner, Bruce Hyma, and ask whether he would like to amend his report. Numbers 7 and 10 point to manslaughter.
Dr. Abdullah Fatteh’s autopsy report
My investigation consisted of:
A) Detailed interview of mother of newborn.
B) Review of autopsy report on baby from Miami Dade Medical Examiner.
C) Examination of microscopic slides prepared by medical examiner.
D) Review of submitted records.
I submit the following analysis, observations and conclusions based on my examination of above materials.
COMMENTS AND CONCLUSIONS:
Based on the information detailed above the following conclusions are, in my opinion, justified:
1. The clinic allowed unlicensed staff to perform abortion.
2. The clinic failed to dispose of fetal remains in sanitary and appropriate manner
3. The newborn was born alive.
4. Unlicensed clinic staff cut the umbilical cord.
5. The clinic physician was not at the clinic when delivery occured.
6. The clinic staff was in panic state when delivery occured.
7. The actions of unlicensed clinic staff probably accelerated and/or contributed to the death of the newborn.
8. The body of the deceased was decomposed by the time the first autopsy was performed nine days after delivery.
9. A second autopsy, most likely, will not yield any reliable information.
10. It is most likely that neglectful actions around the time of birth of newborn and prematurity were the significant factors that resulted in this newborn’s death.
Sincerely yours,
Abdullah Fatteh, M.D., Ph.D., l.L.B.
Pathologist
[Photo courtesy of Operation Rescue]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Another abortionist – LICENSE REVOKED!
Oh yeah, this is total news but you wont post at all about Kansas Anti-Choicers Fail To Indict Clinic.
Unfortunately that’s the problem with abortion. The woman wants a dead baby, and the abortion clinic has to make sure it’s done. TRAGIC!
I didn’t know that this was Shanice’s 3rd pregnancy. Her 2nd abortion. That’s a shame.
Ok once it was delivered every attempt should have been made to save it. I wonder what the mother’s “change of heart” was. I mean, did she decide she wanted the baby the day after the botched abortion? Did she say anything while the baby was being born, right after it was born, when the clinic owner was taking it away? Wasn’t this a late term abortion? This whole situation seems sketch to me.
At 18 years old she had, “one abortion, one miscarriage and this birth.” So she went in for two abortions and curentlly has no children. She obviously needs help as well. I hope she get’s it, because she wasn’t getting it before.
This is precisely what I don’t GET about women like her: She went in to have the baby killed. It didn’t work, then she changes her mind.
WHAT did she HONESTLY expect them to do for her?
No, I’m NOT siding with the clinic or the “doctors or staff”.
They were doing what this woman wanted them to do:
kill the baby. Thats what they DO in abortion clinics: They kill babies.
Yes, this IS tragic.
She should have her tubes tied, or get a hysterectomy so she doesn’t make this SAME stupid “CHOICE” again. She made her choice, now she has to live with the consequences, tragic as they are…especially for the BABY.
I have no doubt that this happens quite frequently in these chop shops, whether they’re licensed or not, or have real doctors doing the abortions. This particular case just happened to make it to the press.
It is testing my sympathy to the extreme as to WHAT to think about this woman.
that devil in the picture above put the alive baby in a bag with bleach and threw him on top of the roof so the police wouldnt find him.
This abortionist should be executed immediatly.
I agree 100% Jasper.
There is something seriously wrong with our world.
Indeed, Elizabeth.
If the liberals have their way, everything will be legal, no one will have to take any responsibility for their actions, Paris Hilton will be our next president and everything will be just dandy.
I guess, the more disturbing questions to this gruesome crime is:
How did they know to throw the baby on the roof to hide the evidence? Have they done this before? If so, how many times?
“She should have her tubes tied, or get a hysterectomy so she doesn’t make this SAME stupid “CHOICE” again. She made her choice, now she has to live with the consequences, tragic as they are…especially for the BABY.”
You couldn’t find a doctor in this country who would tie an 18 year old’s tubes. No matter how much a woman insists they don’t want children doctors always assume they’ll change their minds. It’s because a lot of times people just don’t think about the consequences of their actions, just like this woman.
Also you always have the women who are really young and have a bunch of kids so they have their tubes tied then when they kids grow up and they want BABIES again they complain. One woman was complaining that she had her tubes tied and now she couldn’t cement her and her boyfriends relationship. Ur durrr the relationship should already be cemented before you decide to have a child. Plus she already had three children from three different men, so I guess those kids didn’t cement those relationships.
Mike, not me. If I had my way women wouldn’t need abortion because A)they wouldn’t need to conform to anyone’s by having sex and B) child raising would be more of a communtiy effort so women would be able to have children and complete whatever goals they may have.
Yes I think I am a boarderline Commi but no one in my immaginary world needs an abortion.
My guess, is that they were probably running out of places to hide the evidence and the roof was the first thing that came to mind. Desparate times call for desparate measures.
One look at the Belkis Gonzalez and you have to wonder who in their right mind would even let her touch them, let alone do surgery on them.
If you look at photos of these abortionists who have been busted, they all look deranged.
. . . unlicensed staff performing abortions. The whole place should be shut down, and the owner sent to jail (and the unlicnsed staff too). This is not what safe and legal abortions are supposed to be about.
I guess you could say this was in illegal abortion. If abortion is made generally illegal, we’ll probably have more stories like this.
Meanwhile, in Kansas, the grand jury empaneled by Phill Kline for his little witch hunt/fishing expedition has declined to indict Planned Parenthood:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/515892.html
PS If you look at the photo of Kline with the article, HE is the one who looks deranged. Poor Phill, first thrown out of office by the conservative voters of Kansas for being so obsessed with this, and now thwarted by his own grand jury!
This child is a VICTIM of parental violence. I stand with the VICTIMS of parental violence,born and unborn. And no one can tell me that at 23 weeks that she didn’t know that her baby was more than a blob of cells. I totally agree with what Mike said in his 9:31 am post.
You know, it’s not just abortion clinics that have problems doing the right thing:
http://www.lasvegasnow.com/global/story.asp?s=7966180
This link doesn’t surprise me in the least.
There are no such things as standards anymore. We have become a society where we accept anything thrown at us, and no one is held accountable. Some places get caught, others don’t.
There is no consistency to the way anything is regulated or how laws are enforced.
I agree with you Mike. The problems at the abortion clinics are similar to problems throughout society. Hopefully Obama’s health care proposals will bring all medical care up to 21st Century standards
How can you even claim innocence if you hide the evidence?
It was like OJ’s flee from justice and then acquitted from the charges. Got something to hide?
Anyway this whole story makes me sad. I’ve seen a few pro-choice people here expressing concern. Are there any other pro-choicers that are appalled at this story?
Elise, Kansas has some of the most honest politicians in the world, if you use Robert A. Heinlein’s definition of an honest politician: one that stays bought. Hence, Tiller and PP are able to clearly and openly break the law and get away with it.
Be serious — what possible medical reason can there be for Tiller to perform third trimester abortions? If the woman’s life is in danger, you’d take her to the nearest fully-equipped hospital, perform an emergency c-section, and have the baby out of her and in the NICU in less than an hour. What MEDICALLY COMPELLING REASON could there be to drive past any number of such hospitals in order to dick around for three days, which she spends IN A MOTEL ROOM attended by just whatever friend or family she brings with her?
If you had a medical crisis that was threatening your life, would you choose to go to a hospital with doctors and nurses, or a motel room with your mother?
Jess, denial is a powerful thing. As long as the baby hasn’t emerged yet, the mother can convince herself it’s not “really” a baby. Once she sees it, the denial can come crashing down.
I used to be so bewildered when I’d read the court cases when women expelled fetuses or fetal parts after abortions, and repeatedly the people around them would testify that the women would scream, “It’s a baby! It’s a baby!” I’d think, “Pregnant Woman Expels Baby! Medical First! Contact the National Enquirer and the Journal of the American Medical Association!” What did they expect? A hamster?
But we live in a society that repeatedly tells them, “It’s not a baby; it’s just tissue.” The staff at the clinic tell them, “It’s not a baby; it’s just tissue.” And they want to be out of the situation of being pregnant. So they believe it.
Until they see their baby’s face bobbing in the toilet. Then suddenly they can’t believe the lies any more.
And this is true of women who expel a 12 or 16 week baby. Imagine if you give birth to one that’s moving and crying. How could you hold onto the idea, “It’s not a baby. It’s just tissue.”?
This was a totally legal abortion.
Secondly this woman uses abortion as a method of birth control.
Thirdly, 7. The actions of unlicensed clinic staff probably accelerated and/or contributed to the death of the newborn.
And they needed TWO autopsies to figure this out?
Anyway this whole story makes me sad. I’ve seen a few pro-choice people here expressing concern. Are there any other pro-choicers that are appalled at this story?
Posted by: prettyinpink at March 5, 2008 12:04 PM
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Of course it’s horrible and if these people have committed a crime they should go to prison.
What chaps my a$$ is that people use a handful of bad abortion practitioners as a reason to outlaw abortion. Don’t they also believe that the fleets of child-molesting clergy are justification for outlawing Christianity?
If you apply the “bad apples” rule to one field, then extend that standard to ALL fields.
I agree with you Mike. The problems at the abortion clinics are similar to problems throughout society. Hopefully Obama’s health care proposals will bring all medical care up to 21st Century standards
Posted by: Hal at March 5, 2008 11:51 AM
Do you think Obama’s plan will include stricter standards, and tougher enforcement and stiffer penalties for situations such as these? Do you think the judges he appoints will uphold long sentences and large settlements against such doctorts who put live babies in medical waste bags? In short will Obama’s health plan discourage medical personel from putting borderline viable premies alive into medical waste bags?
1-Negative 23 weeks is not 23 weeks. Negative 23 weeks could be any where from 0 to 22 weeks. At 22 weeks a fetus might have a very slim chance of survival. The lungs would just barely be formed and airways would not be developed enough for the lungs to function. Gasping for breath would be extremely unlikely. Half of the very few to ever have survived at 22 weeks were severely brain damaged from either lack of oxygen or the forcing of oxygen by ventilators into lungs unable to their job.
2-What exactly does ‘she had a change of heart’ supposedly mean? Funny how not one other report on this story asserts such. The woman clearly never changed her mind over having the abortion.
3- You completely forget to mention that Fattah was hired to do the autopsy. No autopsy was performed by Fatteh. Fatteh reviewed the medical examiners records and made his own conclusions. Undoubtedly by the Thomas Moore folks paid for this ‘investigation’.
4-Which is it? The woman gave birth or she aborted. Was an abortion performed? Apparently not. The woman herself is responsible for the premature birth. If anyone is indicted, it would have to be her. I can’t see that happening.
5-Since when is it illegal for a medically unlicensed person to cut an umbilical cord? What exactly are unlicensed people expected to do to ‘save’ an unsavable fetus during a premature delivery?
Clearly the only thing that will come out of this bruhaha will be some fines for the nincompoops that went into panic mode. Why didn’t the morons call an ambulance? Why didn’t the anonymous person call an ambulance immediately? Why didn’t the woman? Where was she when the cops showed up? This whole story is goofy.
“If you apply the “bad apples” rule to one field, then extend that standard to ALL field”
I agree, and the bad apples are not the reason why I oppose abortion.
However I think higher standards of clinical practice in general should be a priority so state inspections and requirements should be strictly adhered to-or the clinic should be shut down. That goes for any clinic. I’ve heard of a few cases where abortion clinic standards were violated but it wasn’t reported readily–that has to stop.
Jasper, how do you think Gonzales should be executed? Put up on a roof somewhere with her hands and feet tied and a plastic bag filled with bleach placed over her head?
Or dismemberment?
“This was a totally legal abortion.”
Not if it was done by an unlicensed staff member.
Until they see their baby’s face bobbing in the toilet. Then suddenly they can’t believe the lies any more.
And this is true of women who expel a 12 or 16 week baby. Imagine if you give birth to one that’s moving and crying. How could you hold onto the idea, “It’s not a baby. It’s just tissue.”?
Posted by: Christina at March 5, 2008 12:20 PM
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I ‘expelled’ a 12 weeker. Actually it had to be forcibly removed due to being adhered to my uterus. It looked like a blob. Certainly didn’t look like either of the babies I’ve given birth to. But then I didn’t dissect it. After losing so much blood, I wasn’t curious enough to examine it at all.
Christina: Please don’t tell me that you are saying that it is society’s fault that this woman decided to abort her 23 week old fetus. Society sends out plenty of bad messages. It is up to adults to use their moral compass to filter out the good from the bad.
“This was a totally legal abortion.”
Not if it was done by an unlicensed staff member.
Posted by: Hal at March 5, 2008 1:13 PM
…………….
It appears that the woman actually miscarried before the second part of the abortion could be performed.
This was a totally legal abortion.
Secondly this woman uses abortion as a method of birth control.
Thirdly, 7. The actions of unlicensed clinic staff probably accelerated and/or contributed to the death of the newborn.
And they needed TWO autopsies to figure this out?
Posted by: Patricia at March 5, 2008 12:21 PM
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One autopsy was performed by the medical examiner. The Thomas Moore folks hired another Dr to review the original autopsy and make his own conclusions.
“a handful of bad abortion practitioners” give the rest a bad name, Laura?
Hmmm….you’ve probably have a lot bigger hands than mine…probably the size of the SEARS Tower.
It appears that the woman actually miscarried before the second part of the abortion could be performed.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 1:27 PM
What second part of the abortion Sally?
A few comments/questions?
1. When did mom change her mind?
2. Some abortions take more than one visit. Do we know if this was the case, where a ‘stick’type item (the name escapes me)is inserted, to open the cervix. Then the mother goes back in to have the abortion.
Forgot to add….
Since these abortionists are in the business for the money, do they have to provide a refund if the baby is born and not KILLED?
“Jasper, how do you think Gonzales should be executed? Put up on a roof somewhere with her hands and feet tied and a plastic bag filled with bleach placed over her head?
Or dismemberment?”
Alberto Gonzales should get the medal of honor. A True Patriot
It appears that the woman actually miscarried before the second part of the abortion could be performed.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 1:27 PM
What second part of the abortion Sally?
Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 2:16 PM
………………..
The stories say that she received medication to dilate her cervix on the 19th and returned for the actual abortion on the 20th. The doctor was not at the clinic. The woman went into labor.
Forgot to add….
Since these abortionists are in the business for the money, do they have to provide a refund if the baby is born and not KILLED?
Posted by: Lovethemboth at March 5, 2008 3:01 PM
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Docs make a great deal more money monitoring wanted pregnancies than aborting unwanted ones. It’s all about the money. @@
Gonzales should be executed swiftly, painfully and publicly as God commands that all convicted murderers be convicted.
LOL jasper I don’t think he was talking about alberto…
Abortionists are all the ‘bad apples’ of the medical profession in the same way that the 9-11 suicide “pilots” were the ‘bad apples’ of aviation. The good apples preserve human health and life; the bad ones abuse their knowledge and skills to deliberately take it. It’s not complicated.
Oh and Sally, you somehow “forgot” to mention that it takes about 9 months to monitor the average human pregnancy; snuffing out the life of the average unborn child (8-12 weeks) takes about 10 minutes tops, and some particularly greedy killers even have races to see how many they can “do” in an hour. Last I read, the record was about 15…a whopping 4 minutes per killing. At about 400.00 a pop hmmm, let’s see…that would be about 6,000.00 an hour, all cash. It’s much more, of course, if the pregnancies are further along; I believe Tiller gets several thousand a pop-off, so it adds up even more, though I think it takes a bit more time to mostly deliver the child, stab him or her in the head and suck out his/her brains, or to dismember and remove him/her piece by bloody piece. And you seriously want us to believe that real doctors, the kind who preserve life, the kind you’d want if you were ever seriously ill or injured, do that much monitoring babies who are not at some point considered deserving of death to term? Get real.
Jasper, is Alberto a “her”, like Belkis? I had no idea!
The stories say that she received medication to dilate her cervix on the 19th and returned for the actual abortion on the 20th. The doctor was not at the clinic. The woman went into labor.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 3:28 PM
Don’t confuse this woman’s abortion with a miscarriage. They initiated medication to dilate her cervix, which means they initated the abortion with the medication.
The stories say that she received medication to dilate her cervix on the 19th and returned for the actual abortion on the 20th. The doctor was not at the clinic. The woman went into labor.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 3:28 PM
Don’t confuse this woman’s abortion with a miscarriage. They initiated medication to dilate her cervix, which means they initated the abortion with the medication.
Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 3:59 PM
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You seem confused. If the abortion had been complete there would have been no reason for the woman to return to the clinic. It seems likely that the medication given to dilate her cervix caused the miscarriage. No different than having an incompetent cervix. Seems logical. Aborted or miscarried, the fetus is very very very unlikely to have survived no matter what heroic measures might have been applied.
Abortionists are all the ‘bad apples’ of the medical profession in the same way that the 9-11 suicide “pilots” were the ‘bad apples’ of aviation. The good apples preserve human health and life; the bad ones abuse their knowledge and skills to deliberately take it. It’s not complicated.
Oh and Sally, you somehow “forgot” to mention that it takes about 9 months to monitor the average human pregnancy; snuffing out the life of the average unborn child (8-12 weeks) takes about 10 minutes tops, and some particularly greedy killers even have races to see how many they can “do” in an hour. Last I read, the record was about 15…a whopping 4 minutes per killing. At about 400.00 a pop hmmm, let’s see…that would be about 6,000.00 an hour, all cash. It’s much more, of course, if the pregnancies are further along; I believe Tiller gets several thousand a pop-off, so it adds up even more, though I think it takes a bit more time to mostly deliver the child, stab him or her in the head and suck out his/her brains, or to dismember and remove him/her piece by bloody piece. And you seriously want us to believe that real doctors, the kind who preserve life, the kind you’d want if you were ever seriously ill or injured, do that much monitoring babies who are not at some point considered deserving of death to term? Get real.
Posted by: reality czech at March 5, 2008 3:49 PM
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You make a whole lot of assertions that you couldn’t back up to save your life. You must be yllas. Reality is clearly not your companion.
You seem confused. If the abortion had been complete there would have been no reason for the woman to return to the clinic. It seems likely that the medication given to dilate her cervix caused the miscarriage. No different than having an incompetent cervix. Seems logical. Aborted or miscarried, the fetus is very very very unlikely to have survived no matter what heroic measures might have been applied.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 4:38 PM
No. You seem confused. Her cervix was forced open. A miscarriage is a natural occurance. Had they not forced her cervix open, this baby would have remained alive and well in her uterus.
Very likely, this disgusting clinic falsified the gestational stage, or knew and didn’t care that this baby was far enough along to enter the world alive.
Oh, good grief, Sally! So you really don’t know that the normal gestation period for humans is 9 months (you can check any basic medical textbook on prenatal development for that information), or that the average cost of an average office visit with a legitimate Ob-Gyn is a fraction of 400.00, but they generally take longer than a “wham, bam thank you ma’am” first trimester abortion? Many abortuaries post their fees online; that’s how I know that 400.00 is about average these days for murdering a first trimester preborn child. That’s just the hit fee; it doesn’t include the costs of treating complications, or funeral costs if the woman dies also. It also doesn’t include the cost of psychiatric care for pas, breast cancer, or other sequelae. Descriptions of the methods of 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions abound on the web; look them up yourself. Tiller is characteristically not as forthcoming on his website as some of his surviving victims about the cost of his late term killings, but that hardly justifies your blanket attack on my statements and character.
Incidentally, I note that you don’t back up any of your claims against me, for that matter; so why I or anyone else would anyone trust you, with your obvious commitment to denial at any cost, as a guide to reality? Doesn’t sound as though you’d know reality if it bit you in the buttocks-excuse me, when it bites you in the buttocks.
You seem confused. If the abortion had been complete there would have been no reason for the woman to return to the clinic. It seems likely that the medication given to dilate her cervix caused the miscarriage. No different than having an incompetent cervix. Seems logical. Aborted or miscarried, the fetus is very very very unlikely to have survived no matter what heroic measures might have been applied.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 4:38 PM
No. You seem confused. Her cervix was forced open. A miscarriage is a natural occurance. Had they not forced her cervix open, this baby would have remained alive and well in her uterus.
Very likely, this disgusting clinic falsified the gestational stage, or knew and didn’t care that this baby was far enough along to enter the world alive.
Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 4:47 PM
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Yes dear, the women went in for an abortion. The first part of the procedure in this instance would be to chemically soften the cervix. I wouldn’t liken that to safe cracking. But if your need for drama demands it…………
And yes, miscarriages do happen when a cervix is rendered incompetent. Often due to ‘natural’ causes.
Oh please! Very likely this clinic falsified something or another? What’s next? The woman was dragged into a clinic and forced to have an abortion at 30 years gestation? Of course the people in the clinic murdered her quadruplets. PHDs every one of them.
Is sticking to the story too difficult for you to defend that you must suppose and assume to make it work?
And yes, miscarriages do happen when a cervix is rendered incompetent. Often due to ‘natural’ causes.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 6:31 PM
This was not a natural cause. So don’t try to say this woman had a miscarriage. You try to stick to the story and quit spinning it to suit your fancy.
And yes, miscarriages do happen when a cervix is rendered incompetent. Often due to ‘natural’ causes.
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 6:31 PM
This was not a natural cause. So don’t try to say this woman had a miscarriage. You try to stick to the story and quit spinning it to suit your fancy.
Posted by: Sandy at March 5, 2008 7:19 PM
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The woman paid for an abortion Sandy. She was cheated out of the portion of the procedure where they send sharp teethed demons into her to rip the poetry composing little prodigy to pieces. She’s obviously pissed off that she got gipped. Does that suit your fantasy better Sandy? What is your issue? Intended miscarriage or not, the fetus was not viable.
“LOL jasper I don’t think he was talking about alberto…”
oh, duh, I’m an idiot….
Sally,
You are not a doctor. You do not know whether the baby could have survived. There are plenty of cases where 22 and 23 week old babies are surviving. My cousin’s twins are an example!
And even if the baby had not turned out to be a PhD, doesn’t mean that his life did not have intrinsic value. That is the difference in our view points. We feel ALL Human Life has intrinsic value, you think that only certain Human Life has value.
Elise, Kansas has some of the most honest politicians in the world, if you use Robert A. Heinlein’s definition of an honest politician: one that stays bought. Hence, Tiller and PP are able to clearly and openly break the law and get away with it.
Posted by: Christina at March 5, 2008 12:11 PM
Interesting that you quote Heinlein when his definition of the right to life is very different from your sides:
“Life? What ‘right’ to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What ‘right’ to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, doesn’t he do so as a matter of ‘right’? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man’s right is ‘unalienable’? And is it ‘right’?”
And as to Tiller. Well I have read a great deal on this man and while I admit he has performed a lot of procedures that would be unnecessary at least he is not doing them wholly illegally since there have been cases where the life of woman and/or fetus was in jeapordy that abortion was tragically necessary.
And as to driving to a hospital to have a C-section performed. Well, have you had a C-section? It can cause many more problems than you make it seem. I would not want one unless I was forced. Think about it, you are cutting through the abdominal wall and THROUGH THE WALL OF THE UTERUS and thereby damaging the woman far more than need be if the fetus has died in utero and it is too large for the body to naturally miscarry.
By removing said fetus piece by piece the necessity of damaging the uterus are very low and therefore she can return to a normal life and attempt to have another child.
I will not bother adressing cases where said woman desires to have a third trimester abortion for non-life threatening reasons because personally I would not want this woman reproducing at all at any time. Any offspring of hers are wholly undesireable. Even if you or your kind would like it, it has the predisposition to be like its mother and because of that it is unworthy.
Elise,
You stated:
And as to Tiller. Well I have read a great deal on this man and while I admit he has performed a lot of procedures that would be unnecessary at least he is not doing them wholly illegally since there have been cases where the life of woman and/or fetus was in jeapordy that abortion was tragically necessary.
– Please link where late term abortions are necessary to save the life of the mother? No offense, but there aren’t any.
– As for C-Section, many women want C-sections bc they don’t want to go through labor. They don’t want to go through the pain and discomfort.
Any offspring of hers are wholly undesireable. Even if you or your kind would like it, it has the predisposition to be like its mother and because of that it is unworthy.
– Do you feel the same way about those who are dispositioned for alchohlism, using drugs, smoking, depression, and the list goes on and on. Just bc you may have a disposition for it doesn’t mean you have to act on it. We all have dispositions to something. Do we act on them? NO!
Your statement sounds very intolerant, racist, judgemental, and exclusionary.
Please link where late term abortions are necessary to save the life of the mother? No offense, but there aren’t any.
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Pe-eclampsia, hyperemesis gravidarum,eclampsia, gestational diabetes,oligohydramnios,placenta previa, antepartum haemorrhage, placental abruption, anemia …………
5-Since when is it illegal for a medically unlicensed person to cut an umbilical cord? What exactly are unlicensed people expected to do to ‘save’ an unsavable fetus during a premature delivery?
Posted by: Sally at March 5, 2008 1:05 PM
Point of information:
You NEVER cut the umbilical cord !
It is very dangerous to the baby !
The placenta will be expelled after a couple of minutes anyway and can be wrapped in a clean towel or bag while still attached.
Remember the story about the little girl who fell through the toilet onto the train tracks? She survived and her cord was still attatched.
When the baby is born, the blood in the cord is still flowing into the baby from the placenta. If you cut the cord, germs will get into his bloodstream.
In hospitals, they clamp the cord first, then cut it. This requires training, licensing etc.
New studies are showing what people knew for thousands of years, it is better not to cut it until after it stops pulsing (or not cut it at all) so the baby gets all the blood he needs.
If you ever find yourself in the unlikely situation of attending a birth, remember you NEVER CUT THE CORD.
Since Sally posted diseases that require late term abortions I’ll just address the other things.
– As for C-Section, many women want C-sections bc they don’t want to go through labor. They don’t want to go through the pain and discomfort.
C-sections cause a LOT of pain and discomfort. In Europe a C-section is not performed willy-nilly or by choice. It is only used in those cases where the fetus is in a very dangerous position.
Most doctors would be insane to perform a C-section on a healthy woman and fetus because of the dangers of infection, damaging the uterus etc.
Here is a link to a PDF file about C-Sections. http://www.motherfriendly.org/Downloads/csec-fact-sheet.pdf
– Do you feel the same way about those who are dispositioned for alchohlism, using drugs, smoking, depression, and the list goes on and on. Just bc you may have a disposition for it doesn’t mean you have to act on it. We all have dispositions to something. Do we act on them? NO!
I am against any predisposition that is harmful to society. And with the social stigma that comes with it I would think these people would rather not been born. If your mother was on hard drugs while she was pregnant with you and you ended up in foster care because of it and have all sorts of illnesses, is that really better than not knowing of your existance before you were old enough? No? Weird. Someone needs to have a little chat with your God.
The cases where the person was grateful to their mother for giving birth to them are few and far between or they are lying to make themselves feel better. I would think it would be kinder to not have them suffer at all.
NEVER CUT THE CORD
Hippie, reminds me of the “Don’t block the box” signs in NYC at intersections.
Sally,
Pe-eclampsia, hyperemesis gravidarum,eclampsia, gestational diabetes,oligohydramnios,placenta previa, antepartum haemorrhage, placental abruption, anemia …………
My sister son was delivered at 36 1/2 weeks by C-Section, bc she had Eclampsia. Her doctor’s put her in the hospital and monitored her, then told her she needed a C-Section. It was the best for HER and her SON. This tends to happen after viability. So whether it’s pre-eclampsia or eclamsia, there is no need to abort. It’s the great thing about modern medicine and technology.
Gestational Diabetes, can be controlled and is closely monitored by doctors. Again, there is no a reason to abort.
When something happens to the plecenta, like tearing, unless a woman knows immediately and gets to a hospital, the chances of that unborn baby being born alive is small. My friend had that happen to her at 39 weeks. Her plecenta gave way and she lost her baby.
We must always ere on the side of life for both the MOM and the BABY.
Elise,
First, I would not be so BOLD as to “have a little chat with GOD” w/ such an arrogant attitude. He is the Creator of everything seen and unseen. You want to tell him off, that’s your choice. I have many heated discussions with God, but I always remember who I am talkting to. But again, that would not make any sense to you since you do not know Him.
Second, I would agree that unless it was necessary, not to have a C-Section. I had all three of mine naturally (NO MEDICATION AT ALL). However, in the US, in the 1980’s and 1990’s there was a significant increase in the number of C-Sectiosn performed. Most of them were for convienence. It’s quicker for the doctor and for the woman who’s pregnant.
Many women who have a C-Section for the 1st chose that way of delivery again for the rest of the children they have. The way a C-Section is performed allows for a V-Back or not. So if a woman wants to try a vaginal birth, she must discuss that with her OB.
Thirdly, just bc someone is born into a difficult situation does not mean that person is WORTHLESS!! There are plenty of people born into rich families that abuse drugs and alcohol, who abuse their kids and neglect them with Nannies and the kids don’t see them. So be careful. By your standards no one should be born at all, BC no one has a perfect family and/or upbringing.
I’m sure you have dispositions to unhealthy behaviors, so do you think you shouldn’t have been born?
Sally,
Pe-eclampsia, hyperemesis gravidarum,eclampsia, gestational diabetes,oligohydramnios,placenta previa, antepartum haemorrhage, placental abruption, anemia …………
My sister son was delivered at 36 1/2 weeks by C-Section, bc she had Eclampsia. Her doctor’s put her in the hospital and monitored her, then told her she needed a C-Section. It was the best for HER and her SON. This tends to happen after viability. So whether it’s pre-eclampsia or eclamsia, there is no need to abort. It’s the great thing about modern medicine and technology.
Gestational Diabetes, can be controlled and is closely monitored by doctors. Again, there is no a reason to abort.
When something happens to the plecenta, like tearing, unless a woman knows immediately and gets to a hospital, the chances of that unborn baby being born alive is small. My friend had that happen to her at 39 weeks. Her plecenta gave way and she lost her baby.
We must always ere on the side of life for both the MOM and the BABY.
Posted by: Tara at March 7, 2008 7:33 AM
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Eclampsia is very dangerous and your sister and friend are lucky they didn’t bleed to death. There are indeed situations when an abortion procedure is much safer for the woman than risking blood loss through surgery. Many of these conditions can and do kill the fetus. We haven’t even touched upon fetal anomalies and demise.
As you say, it is for the professionals to assess the situation and make the safest choice of procedure. It should be of no surprise to you that late term abortions are rare when these conditions are rarely extreme enough to warrant them. But to assert that they are never necessary is just plain not true. You don’t really think that women somehow intentionally develop life threatening conditions do you? You do realize that these are wanted pregnancies don’t you?
If your friend had developed a further complication causing extreme danger of bleeding to death how would you feel denying her a procedure to save her life because it sounded icky to you? D&X. Dead friend. D&X. Dead friend. I think such decisions should be left up to doctor and patient. Not a bunch of lawyers.
Sally,
On Jan 15, 2003 The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) reported the number of partial birth abortions (specifically D&X) had more then tripled since 1998.
Sally,
On Jan 15, 2003 The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) reported the number of partial birth abortions (specifically D&X) had more then tripled since 1998.
They hid the evidence!
That means something inside of these monsters says, “This is WRONG!”
Sally,
Unborn children are part of the Living. And there is someone who is ignorant, it sure isn’t me.
There will be a generation that will stand up and chastise the generations before them for the mass murder of innocent unborn children. It may be closer then we think. The generation who are between 15-25 tend to be more pro-life. the pendulum is swinging in the right direction.
Sally,
Unborn children are part of the Living. And there is someone who is ignorant, it sure isn’t me.
There will be a generation that will stand up and chastise the generations before them for the mass murder of innocent unborn children. It may be closer then we think. The generation who are between 15-25 tend to be more pro-life. the pendulum is swinging in the right direction.
Posted by: Tara at March 8, 2008 6:49 PM
Thank you Tara, I am a 15 year old girl. I am actively involved in the Young Pro-life movement
Life begins at Conception
Abortion is Murder
And women should take responsibility for there actions and not take the “easy way out”.
the youth of America is leaning more to the right, and are learning how important Life is…yes even young girls will now look up to actresses that get pregnant( Like Jamie lynn Spears) and choose life even though it isnt Always the easiest.