Weekend question
I received this email:
America is becoming very divided over abortion. Dialogue at message boards, etc., becomes very antagonistic and heated.
I have always been fiercely pro-life, and I don’t hesitate in telling family members and friends who are pro-choice why their decision is WRONG….
This has cost me more than a few friends. Not good. Am I doing something wrong? I feel guilty about it, but I’m not sorry for my pro-life conviction, which I will stand by even if it means I stand totally alone, at peace, but still lonely.
If this hasn’t happened to you, then it means my approach with these people is all wrong.
Please advise.
I have not always been “fiercely pro-life.” When I became so 10 years ago, my network of friends was by this time in my life (age 43) old and dear. I should add that network was and is small. And my family is my family.
I can’t say as I’ve lost any of my well established friends over the pro-life issue. Most were pro-life, although none were or are activists. I’ve never gotten into it with family and friends who I suspect don’t hold my view on the life issue. I think we all know that to do so would not be good.
That said, I’ve changed, and I’ve gravitated over the past 10 years to developing friendships with pro-life activists like me. I hang out with this group more than any other. I’d say some of my older relationships have dwindled for this reason alone. The bond I share with pro-life friends is special and unique.
What are your thoughts on Jan’s question?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Jan – there have always been divisions when it comes to very serious issues. Christ made it clear that his presence would mean division even among family members.
In your discussions with those who hold opposing views, it’s important to point out that you uphold their immeasurable value as human beings, and follow through by acting that way towards them. It’s also very important to make it clear, there’s a distinction between an objective moral wrong, and merely opinion.
It’s better to place a small irritating pebble than to clobber someone over the head with rock.
Just make sure that when others fail to engage with you on this issue, are refusing to do so, because they know in their heart they are wrong, and not because you appear to care more about the issue than you do them. (Been there, done that, sharing experience.)
I have always been pro-life, but not active until the last few years. This has definitely caused a change in my friends. I simply cannot hang out with the people who were my friends before, as they do not share this belief with me.
While we have not discussed this, I know that it would be a dividing point with them, so I simply do not bring it up when we do see one another. I also suspect that one of my friends had an abortion, given the way she reacts to anything I have said. Just a feeling I have.
The others would be of the opinion that a woman has a right to choose.
I now spend time with those who have this same belief, as we share so many other things as well. Because my pro-life beliefs have become so front and centre, they do determine a lot of other choices I make. And one of those choices is who I spend time with. I simply do not wish to give time away to people with whom I would be at odds much of the time.
I have always been pro-life and everyone I come in contact with where the issue happens to come up knows it. I am very passionate in my views with my immediate family, but I try to be still passionate yet gentle when dealing with others. I have encountered people who advised me to abort when I was pregnant at seventeen years old (my father, my grandfather). It did not take long for them to understand my position.
Just the other day I had the opportunity to tell some truths about abortion where lies have been told. I listen very closely and go through the truth. I back it up with reputable references.
I have not lost friends or people close to me, but they just do not bring it up around me unless they have a question about it, which I do get often. I agree with p.p. they know in there heart they are wrong, which in turn makes it hard to talk to someone who is right.
I lost a friend…she actually was the wife of my husband’s friend. They met and married and got pregnant within months. She told my husband’s friend she was pregnant with his baby two weeks after they met (they had sex within an hour of meeting…yes, I know. EWWW) She miscarreid twice supposedly and then he went ahead and married her and she got pregnant a month later. She was a little strange..she liked to rub my belly a lot when I was pregnant and obsessed over getting pregnant herself.
I hung out with her because she had no friends and I tried to be sweet and kind though I found her a little odd to say the least. I had written a pro-life blog on my myspace page and when this woman saw it she sent me an angry rambling email. Finding out she’d had an abortion years earlier did not surprise me at all given her rage at my stance. You know, and you have to remind yourself, all their rage comes from the incredible guilt they carry. And they blame you for their guilt. Because you remind them that their “choice” cost them their child’s life.
She had by this time given birth to a little girl who was several months old. I tried to dialogue with this woman about the ultrasounds she had had with her daughter…didn’t she clearly see that her daughter was a baby within her and not some blob of tissue? She argued that her daughter was human because she had been planned and insinuated that my son had been a blob when I carried him because he had been unplanned. Which just left me scratching my head at the utter lack of logic with which this woman formulated her opinions. So I lost her “friendship” over my stand.
You have to stand firm with your pro-life convictions and without apology…at the same time you have to be loving. Remember Roe (Norma McCorvey) was won by love!
I don’t want to be friends with pro-aborts. Before I became an activist, I had friends who were moderate pro-aborts. Any time they’d say something was “wrong” or “right” (i.e. animals in captivity at the county fair), I’d think, “You support dismembering babies. How can you say anything is right or wrong?”
It’s hard for me to keep company with people that believe it’s okay to kill other people is certain circumstances, like if I had an accident and became brain-injured. I’d much rather keep the company of people who have a moral compass and would take care of me if I were vulnerable, instead of using my vulnerability as a justification to murder me.
I alienate would-be pro-abort friends and I’m all the better for it. Not a loss at all.
I am in academia and will continue to be in academia once I graduate- I can not not be surrounded by people who support abortion.
Our Lord promised us that if we followed Him, we would be despised. If you don’t ever lose any friends, you probably don’t stand for anything. Everything you have including your friendships, health, family, honor and accomplishments, you will eventually lose. The only thing that lasts to eternity is your relationship with the Lord. What does it profit you to gain the (friendship of) the entire world if you lose your soul? More simply what good is a friend that doesn’t respect what you think and your right to say it? That isn’t being a friend. That is being a doormat to avoid conflict. Do you really want to go there? There are 6 billion people in the world. No need to be lonely.
Also, even if you lose that friend, she will still be affected by your example of faithfulness which could change her heart someday.
My aunt and I no longer speak because she took my 14 year old cousin in for an abortion (after I had just visited for Christmas earlier that year and expressed quite vocally my pro-life views, which she had professed to adamantly agree with…) If someone could lie to my face about their opposition to abortion, then actually go and help a minor in her care get one, lie about that to everyone else, admit to me finally that she did it, then refuse to give any reasoning behind having done so other than say “I had my reasons”…I do not care if she is my aunt or not, that person is someone I wish to separate myself from. That level of irresponsibility and deceit is just too much, and frankly, I’m better off not considering her to be within the realm of my family.
It’s caused a lot of conflict between my husband and myself. He started out completely pro-choice, then still pro-choice but not personally, now somewhat pro-life but nowhere near as strong as my views. It still causes a bit of tension because I do spend so much time debating it with others and he just doesn’t feel as strongly about it as I do, but it’s gotten better and I only expect it to get more so over time.
If someone is willing to listen to me, and be genuine with me, I will debate with them and we might come to find both our views altered somewhat, to find a bridge between acceptable justice for the unborn and protection of freedoms of the born. I’m a fan of both of those things, not just one or the other. There are a few people who I’ve actually made friends with who say or have said some pretty terrible things about pro-lifers, but they’ve heard me out, came to see the matter a little more from the other side, and might not have changed their core views, but have changed their approach and are more understanding individuals now than before. Actually listening to the other side is the first step in either coming around to their view, or finding a resolution you might both see as acceptable.
My mother-in-law don’t talk about it anymore. I think she needs to sort through some things after the last time she and I talked.
*My mother-in-law and I don’t talk about it anymore
I think you have to deal with family and co-workers in a somewhat different way than you would with random strangers or with politicians, and perhaps differently than you would with friends.
With family and especially with co-workers, you can be sure that there will be those who feel as strongly pro-abortion/pro-choice/laissez-faire as you feel pro-life. I handle it by not making my pro-life position a wedge between us. They know that I am pro-life. They know better than to start an argument with me about the subject. I need my family. I need my job (and I work remotely, with the main office in California, which is staffed by people who were very angry about the outcome of Prop 8, including my boss and including one gay man who has a “wife” — pro-life isn’t the only thing that can become a wedge). With co-workers, if someone were to try to put me on the spot, I believe I would respond by saying that I am faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and that faithfulness is not subject to negotiation. So, I’m not silent, but I’m not in-your-face about things either. I believe they need to know, and I don’t believe I need to constantly tell them they are wrong. If anyone would ever ask for a respectful discussion of the matter, I’d be happy to do so, but I’m not into starting/promoting arguments that only end up destroying relationships without changing the other person — in fact most arguments I’ve overheard on these matters have only served to harden the hearts of the pro-abortion/pro-choice/laissez-faire person.
With random strangers, politicians, and most of my friends (if they happen to be pro-abortion/pro-choice/laissez-faire), I pull no punches.
I am a recent convert to pro-life. I was not particularly pro-abortion before but I just didn’t think it was such a big deal and didn’t give the subject much thought.
A series of events in my life brought me to a deeper walk with Christ and I began to understand how wrong it was to decide to terminate a human life, something that God had willed into being.
I understood that choosing to do so meant telling God that He had made a mistake and that the woman had the right to correct that mistake.
My newfound belief has cost me some friends. Not initially, but over some months I just couldn’t bear to be in the presence of people who so callously spoke of “choice”. My defense of the unborn, even done in a gentle way, raised some eyebrows and that look of “here she goes again”.
So now my circle of friends is much smaller but I do not regret it for an instant. Once you begin to understand how precious life is and how wrong it is to terminate it,it changes your own life forever.
People can be opposed to abortion if they want,and they have every right to express their opinions about this. But whether you think it’s “right” or not is immaterial.
Sure, the US government COULD make abortion illegal, but those who think that this will”end” it
are deluding themselves. And you should remember that countries where abortion is illegal have higher abortion rates than countries which permit it. This is a fact, and you can’t get around it.
Women will seek and obtain abortions whether they are legal or not,and if they are too poor to obtain illegal ones,they will try to do it themselves, with the inevitable disastrous results. You can call it “murder” if you like,
compare abortion to slavery,which is ludicrous,
and say how abortion”hurts” women, and quote phony reports about the supposed link between abortion and breast cancer.
My mother is a breast cancer survivor and she did not have any abortions.
People who are against abortion can speak out against it until they are blue in the face and spend all the time they want protesting .
But this will never stop it. Why don’t they do something really productive such as campaigning for the government to provide more financial help to poor pregnant women,married or single,
so they will be less likely to seek and obtain abortions?
And when the hopelessly deluded Father Frank Pavone says”America will not reject abortion until it sees it”, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
This is nothing but wishful thinking.
And more people should use contraceptives; many just aren’t responsible,and many unwanted pregnancies happen.
And if the US government,under the influence of anti-abortion fanatics, were to make contraceptives illegal, this would only cause a marked INCREASE in abortions,and create a black market in them. That would be unbelievably stupid.
And the notion that private donations and charities can provide everything for poor pregnant women is just not true. Sure,I’m all for charities, and they have their place, but they can only do so much.
So please get with reality,people.
And if you don’t like my pro-choice comments here, why not spend time at pro-choice websites and blogs, and give them a piece of your mind?
It’s a free country after all, and you have the right to express your opinions.
80% of women going in for abortions when asked said themselves that if abortion were illegal, they just wouldn’t get one.
I actually DO visit pro-abortion-choice videos on YouTube, pro-abortion-choicer’s user pages, blogs, etc. Thanks for assuming we never do.
I’m sure, Mr. Berger, that you are already well aware that not all pro-lifers here favor making contraceptives illegal? If not, maybe YOU should “get with reality”.
You’re full of it. Are your eyes brown, Mr. Berger?
Robert Berger –
While I recognize it’s poor practice to feed the trolls, I feel I need to say a few things to you (you are in my “random stranger” group).
You claim certain facts about the number of abortions in countries where are abortions are illegal, but you don’t provide any numbers or cite any studies. Fail.
The changes that need to be made do not begin or end with making abortion illegal. The changes need to address restoring a proper respect for chastity and marriage.
As long as abortion is legal, it is wrong to require those of us who have a conscientious objection to abortion to participate by paying for abortions through our taxes or through a public insurance option.
The parallels between slavery and abortion are drawn as a way of pointing out that certain things that some people held as rights (owning other people) were eventually outlawed despite Supreme Court rulings (did you know that the SCOTUS never overturned the Dred Scott decision?). The parallels are not ridiculous — you just don’t like that there are parallels.
Charities and private individuals certainly can and do make a difference. Many who post here have personally financially supported women who had their children rather than abort them, and supported those women and their children after the children were born. We are not hypocritical fanatics. If we can pay $x to the government (most of which will be wasted on bureaucrat salaries) to pay for abortions, we can pay the same $x to Catholic charities that will provide alternatives to abortion and to support women and children — without the unjustifiable overhead that the government has to support. To quote somebody else, “Yes, we can!”
As to posting on “pro-choice” sites, I prefer not to waste my time. I would rather remind politicians that the tide of popular sentiment in this country is against abortion, and that their hope of re-election will be swept away if they continue to try to oppose it.
Now that I have wasted time feeding you, I am going to go back to my regularly scheduled life with my family.
I hope God grants you better understanding. And I hope Our Lady sends all the politicians the grace of the Fear of God.
I have a very unique relationship with a good friend of mine. We met each other at our tennis club and we’ve been hitting partners for 3 or 4 years now. It’s funny because our personalities really click, yet we couldn’t be more different. I’m a Christian, he’s an atheist. I’m pretty conservative politically and he’s about as far left as you can get. He supports gay marriage, I don’t. He supports unborn child killing and I obviously don’t.
We both knew that the other was “on the other side” but we didn’t know how passionate each of us was until about a month ago. We were talking after a match and he went down a list of questions that really located where I stood on several core issues.
He left pretty dejected that day, because he now knew his friend stood for everything he opposed. I think he said I was like one of those hate-filled right-wing extremists. As he was leaving, I told him that even though we disagreed on almost everything, we could still play tennis.
He didn’t believe me at first, but we’ve gotten together several times since then and we laugh and joke and really enjoy each other’s company. I tell him I don’t mind hitting with a lost heathen if he doesn’t mind playing with a Jesus freak.
In fact, we played tennis today (I won). I’ve had other friendships that weren’t as strong and when I found out their position on abortion it kind of killed the relationship.
Paul the apostle said as much as possible, to walk in peace with all men. He also said that he continually sought to find some common ground with people so that he might win them to Christ (1Co 9). My friend and I love tennis, appreciate each other’s sense of humor and we’re both single so we talk about chicks.
Love is the key.
I’ve always been pro-life and argued the point when it was discussed as I would any other issue I truly believed in.
My discussions changed when I had an unplanned pregnancy at 26 — I had my daughter. That decision alone changed relationships — several ‘friends’ counseled me to abort, as they had done. When I had my baby those folks disappeared from my life.
Some of my friends continued in the, not personally pro-abort, but pro-choice category. We don’t often talk about it as a group, but one-on-one it does come up. Several have moved to pro-life, especially after having children and experiencing the miracle of life themselves. They are and have always been opposite of me politically, yet as we have gotten older life experience has caused them to see Life as a moral — not political issue.
I find that discussions about Life are most effective when taking the politics out of it. There are many people who are too partisan for their own good — not looking at the issues on their own merit. (I have to guard myself on that too). Take the politics our of it and put the personal in and folks can have an honest conversation.
Then again, just being me and raising my ‘unplanned child’ does take the whole — You are a hypocrite — attack off the page.
Posted by: Robert Berger at August 29, 2009 4:13 PM
——-
Robert, you’re wrong. Still.
Let us know when you finally learn the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
We’re claiming elective abortion is morally wrong in all circumstances, and it’s not simply our opinion.
And unlike you, we simply can’t pretend abortion is compassionate when in reality it is cruel.
I am in academia and will continue to be in academia once I graduate- I can not not be surrounded by people who support abortion.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino Author Profile Page at August 29, 2009 1:47 PM
so Bobby, how do you deal with it?
Is it not a topic for discussion?
Do people know you are very prolife and if so what is their reaction?
“We’re claiming elective abortion is morally wrong in all circumstances, and it’s not simply our opinion.”
That’s what you think.
About 98% of my friends are pro-choice, ranging from “safe, legal and rare” to “anything goes.” A few are post-abortive themselves. Although my views are fairly conservative, my personality and lifestyle is more compatible with liberals, so I rarely hang out with another pro-lifer (save my husband, who used to be pro-choice until I told him I didn’t date pro-aborts). Everyone who knows me knows I’m a die hard pro-lifer. A few of my closer friends are open to respectful and honest debate, and I usually come away from the discussion feeling like I learned something, and I believe they feel the same way. Most of my friends avoid the topic, so out of respect I don’t try to weasel it in to the conversation. When it does accidentally come up, everyone looks really uncomfortable and glances nervously at me. I’m not sure if they’re worried that I’ve been offended or if they think I’m going to give them a lecture, haha. I generally say a couple sentences, something that makes my stance clear while avoiding saying anything that could be taken personally, and then change the subject to something everyone can enjoy. Since most of them are very understanding and respectful of my beliefs, especially since I’m the only one on the other side, I return the favor by not constantly interjecting my opinion when I know it would only cause discomfort.
There are a few people who are friends of my friends who choose not to pursue a friendship with me because my beliefs don’t align with their own. But those few are pretty hostile to anyone who disagrees with them, and will fabricate nit-picky reasons to dislike others so they don’t have to admit that they refuse to associate with people who are different than them. So, although technically I have lost a few potential friends for being pro-life, I have a feeling that I’m not missing much.
If the friend walks away from the friendship because you are pro-life and that person is not, well, there is nothing you can do about that.
In my opinion, I believe that if a so-called “friend” walked away from a friendship because of a difference in beliefs, it was never a true friendship to begin with. You may have been a true friend, but the friendship was not reciprocal.
I find it hard to believe that we are in synch 100% in beliefs with our true friends. I think that there will always be a difference in some type of belief somewhere down the line.
That being said, I would never, ever, ever walk away from a friendship because that person was not pro-life. I always believe that there may come a time in that friend’s life when either that friend, or someone he/she knows will be contemplating abortion. From past stories I’ve heard, when one is undecided, that person will usually confide/ask for advice from the pro-life person, because they already know what their side believes/thinks. It’s an excellent opportunity to share and possibly save the life of that baby that I certainly don’t want to miss! I truly believe that God puts certain people in our lives at certain times for specific purposes/reasons.
I just can’t understand for the life of me why some self-proclaimed Christians on this board would shun a person out of their lives for not sharing the same belief as them. I’m truly baffled.
X,
How is your cousin doing? Do you talk to her? Can I help in any way?
I have lost many friends over the years as I have become more and more vocal about my abortion regret. Many had abortions and told me,”it was the best thing I ever did.”
Although, I still pray for them and they check up on what I am doing, I have met so many amazing people in the movement and feel blessed in the work of Operation Outcry, Silent No More MN and Rachel’s Vineyard.
Do any of you know who Brandy Lozier is? She is an abortion surviver, who was burned alive in her mother’s woom like Gianna Jessen was.
RJ,
“Do any of you know who Brandy Lozier is? ”
Yes, we’re facebook friends.
Me too. :)
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
No, Carla, but I will be when/if we can go out to Cali for Christmas this year. I’ll be sure to give her information about the groups you are in. I would have last time we were out, but the only person I ended up having time to talk to was my aunt…and that didn’t go well.
My mother, grandmother and I are the only STAUNCHLY pro-lifers in my family. My grandmother died four years ago, and my mother died almost exactly a year after her, So I am really the only pro-lifer left. I have argued many times with my own brothers, aunt and cousins over the issue. My sister doesn’t say much, but I know she almost aborted my nephew 25 years ago, and I’m PRETTY sure she was the one who pressured my niece into her recent abortion. She told my niece to tell me she had a MISCARRIAGE, but my niece knows I knew better. I have been the only one ‘there for her’ since she ‘did it’. She is ‘almost’ convinced that God hates her now for ‘what she did’ (her words). I constantly tell her that all she has to do is ask, and accept God’s forgiveness and healing. Pray for her with me, friends.
Excellent responses and insights, all. I really enjoyed (if that is the right word) reading what you had to say.
Posted by: Hal at August 29, 2009 7:20 PM
Pamela and Xalisae,
I will continue to pray for your cousin and your niece. It breaks my heart. I am only an email away. I will do the best I can to find resources in their area.
For years I believed that abortion was unforgivable too until I met the only One who can heal the wounds that abortion leaves.
Lots of good comments, and of course one or two of the usual proabort attempts at distraction and diversion, most notably by the burger man. I can’t help but feel sorry for someone who feels so compelled to spew out such nasty lies and venom, he must be fighting against a very unhappy conscience.
We can’t choose our families, and usually our co-workers either. So sometimes there are some people in our lives with whom it is better just to not bring up the subject of abortion. But if they bring it up, give them an ear full.
In choosing voluntary “friends and associates”, go gor quality over quantity every time. You will find your life a lot more serene and peaceful.
For years I believed that abortion was unforgivable too until I met the only One who can heal the wounds that abortion leaves.
Posted by: carla at August 30, 2009 7:04 AM
*******************
Glory to His Wonderful Matchless Name. He came to heal the brokenhearted.
His Name is Jesus!
Just make sure that when others fail to engage with you on this issue, are refusing to do so, because they know in their heart they are wrong, and not because you appear to care more about the issue than you do them. (Been there, done that, sharing experience.)
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 29, 2009 12:18 PM
——————————————————-
What he said!
yor bro ken
Posted by: carla at August 30, 2009 7:04 AM
“For years I believed that abortion was unforgivable too until I met the only One who can heal the wounds that abortion leaves.”
———————————————————–
What she said!
yor bro ken
Posted by: Robert Berger at August 29, 2009 4:13 PM
“And if you don’t like my pro-choice comments here, why not spend time at pro-choice websites and blogs, and give them a piece of your mind?”
————————————————————
mr. Berger,
Please be so kind as to give us the address for the owner of that circus. We are little weary from dealing with the clowns.
yor bro ken
Posted by: Hal at August 29, 2009 7:20 PM
“We’re claiming elective abortion is morally wrong in all circumstances, and it’s not simply our opinion.”
That’s what you think.
——————————————————
Hal,
I have an idea.
Why dont we lay out all the evidence for both sides and ask a jury of 12 5th graders chosen at random to determine arguement best reflects reality.
Would you accept their verdict?
I would.
yor bro ken
First of all, one might lose one’s job or pay penalties for one’s pro life convictions, especially if in health care (right, Jill?) But that’s not limited to health care.
That causes loss of the workplace friendships. Personal experience was that some who maintained contact with me did not have a cultural prolife ideology, but respected my decision to refuse to dispense abortive drugs. Most of those who should have had prolife ideology from their cultural background were silent or opposed my decision. That was interesting, and remains a caveat for pro lifers in the workplace.
As for church life…. one can suffer a bit of disappointment knowing if the church doesn’t want to use a prolife activist in ministry functions. Need to watch that collecion plate. Forty percent of people might get offended enough to leave if the prolife stuff gets pushed super hard. That it is presented at all is probably costing some attendance.
Remember how the churches were filled right after 9/11??? One can bet the difference immediately before and immediately after can be accounted for by the people who have trouble with the sex restrictions and the prolife ideology.
It’s difficult to have a close relationship with anyone who places recreational activity above human life in their hierarchy of personal needs.
It’s difficult to respect anyone who doesn’t think that a human’s right to life supercedes and precedes all other rights.
I generally like people, and try to be helpful to them, do my best for my patients, and wish well for the human race in general. However, I regard over-reliance on close interpersonal relationships (concern about being liked in return) as a possible pressure to make unethical decisions. Other than my husband and kids, and a very small number of others, I don’t exert effort to build close relationships.