Yesterday the CDC voted on and recommended 11-12 year old boys should get routine HPV vaccinations.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
90% of HPV cases naturally resolve themselves. Of the remaining 10% less than 1% lead to cervical cancer. This vaccine has been shown to cause a lot of harm. I think better morality and better screening would save more lives than injecting carcinogens into little boys and girls.
Nope. No “serious consequences” here.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/1980/70/8070809
I have a nephew who will be 11 next year. I am sure my sister would not be stupid enough to allow him to get this…. he has NO NEED FOR IT!
Plus, what good would it do a BOY? They don’t get Cervical cancer!
Horrifying!!!!! Vaccines should be an option, not a requirement.
I have a son almost 12–when he had his sports physical the doctor mentioned several times that they recommend this vaccine. They are getting nowhere near my child.
Plus, what good would it do a BOY? They don’t get Cervical cancer!
While this is not in itself a reason to support the vaccine, boys can carry and pass on the strain of HPV that can give girls cervical cancer. So, maybe carrying a cancer-causing strain of HPV won’t hurt a man, but it can certainly hurt the woman he loves.
It’s a big fat no for my three boys. No. No. No. And a big fat no for my daughter. No.
Wonder what would happen if people started reporting doctors who pressured them about vaccines, abortion etc.??
Alexandra,
A man who has HPV and gives it to the woman he loves could have gotten it from another woman he loves? Am I right? No need to answer. I am being snarky.
…maybe I’m mistaken..but isn’t HPV a form of STD ?
The boys can carry it and pass it on to girls but where would boys get it from?
I believe abstinence is the ounce of prevention needed in this case.
Hey Carla –
Yes, basically. I know that premarital sex is against the beliefs of many people here, many of whom came to these beliefs after youthful indiscretions (or their spouses did), but I’m sure that regardless of current beliefs, everyone who did so is glad to have walked away without cervical cancer. As a concept, herd immunity and the benefits of it is something we accept when it comes to most vaccines. The difference with this one, for people with moral objections, is that HPV “should not” be a risk at all. Okay, fine – but don’t pretend that your problem is with the herd immunity goal of vaccines.
My partner was married before, and both he and his wife had had previous sexual partners. So even with my own history (not very scandalous, ftr) completely out of the picture, I am at risk for HPV and cervical cancer.
FWIW I was eligible for the vaccine and did not choose to get it. I don’t get flu shots either. ;) It’s simply stupid to oppose the vaccine for boys “because boys don’t cervical cancer!” If you oppose it for girls then fine – but if you support it for girls then you should support it for boys. It’s an irrelevant point.
I had HPV and cervical cancer.
I didn’t get it from waiting until marriage.
There are so many choices I made that were so very wrong for me. So very wrong.
I want to spare my children that pain.
And if we are throwing out “I have a friend” stories. Here’s one. A friend of mine and her husband stayed virgins until they married. No STD’s. No HPV. No cervical cancer.
What worries me over the last few decades is how the CDC has completely abandonned that simple concept called “Quarantine.” Ever since AIDS was politicized, the organization that is supposed to help Americans instead is putting them at risk. They have chucked science and biology into the trash can, along with their common sense.
It would be safer and more cost effective to go back to the old days of notifying a person’s sexual partners that they had been exposed to a disease. Oh noes, that invades privacy! No, I must have the right to infect people without their knowledge because I must! Young people can just get risky vaccines, embark on irresponsible sexual activity at an inappropriate age because who are we to judge?!
*sarcasm alert*
Soon we will see signs posted in restaurant bathrooms that indicates: “Employees may wash hands if they wish, but then again, they have a right to get their bacteria on your food because it’s their own private choice.”
Boy that poor ole Typhoon Mary sure was maligned for nuthin’.
I’m sorry you had cervical cancer, Carla. That is horrible. And I’m sorry that so many of your choices caused you pain. I think you’re a great mother.
I am not arguing in favor of the vaccine or against abstinence until marriage. I am pointing out the irrelevance of the gender of the child in supporting or opposing this vaccine.
Two of my friends, both assaulted in college, were sure glad they had gotten the vaccine. My cousin, married at age 22, found out that her husband was cheating on her. She was sure glad that she had gotten the vaccine. My roommate, a well-adjusted medical student, got the vaccine when she 15, and has been
monogamous with her partner for three+ years.
This is a drug that can prevent cancer. It’s insane that anybody would reject it on moral grounds.
Thank you, Alexandra. That means a lot to me.
You know my heart.
I wish I hadn’t learned the hard way but I did. And there is nothing I can do to change what I have done except to show my children that there is a better way.
Megan,
Then I am insane.
And I am fine with that.
Carla, I wish I knew you better, but I do know your heart is a good heart, and I know you’re a great mom!
First Megan, there is no indication that this new vaccine actually prevents a darn thing let alone cervical cancer. Cervical cancer has many causes. HPV is a very small percentage of cervical cancer cases. Do your research.
Secondly, there is no such thing as herd immunity. Vaccines is something I have spent years researching and talked to countless doctors about. Herd immunity is a myth.
My life is just a click away at Fourby40. :)
Thank you, Alexandra.
You are such a sweetheart.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001895/
“Almost all cervical cancers are caused by HPV (human papilloma virus).”
Maybe you’re getting confused about the # of strains of HPV there are?
I don’t think you’re insane, Carla. I just don’t see how this vaccine is incompatible with promoting abstinence in kids. Nobody knows how life will turn out–divorce, death, a huge mistake, a change of heart. IMO it’s best to be prepared. Plus, I don’t think many kids are going to say, “Oh yeah, I have a license to do whatever now because I got Gardasil!”
That is just it, Megan.
You don’t see. And I really wish you did.
I really do.
Carla,
I too am confused. I am not being snarky I’m genuinely perplexed.
Many people who are virgins themselves fall in love with non virgins. Surely you are not advising someone to refuse to marry because their partner is not a virgin. Many many people are molested. Many peoples spouses divorce them and they go on to get married again, or their spouse died.
One doesn’t have to do anything wrong at all to get infected w hpv
With regular pap smears no one has to worry about cervical cancer. It is completely preventable, which is why there is such a disparity between deaths due to it between the First and Third Worlds. Seriously, the US is way too intervention happy. Between routine infant circumcision, the Chicken Pox vaccine, and now this, we might want to look at the rest of the indistrialized world to see if more is really better. Take a look at Finland’s vaccine schedule. Why do our children need so much more?
The HPV strains which cause cervical cancer in females can cause penile and anal cancers in males, as well as oropharyngeal (mouth/throat) cancers in either sex. For those wondering what the point of vaccinating boys would be, there’s why. The data I’ve seen says HPV is responsible for around 5% of new cancer diagnoses. That being said, I do think parents should be allowed to decide if their children receive this vaccine, since it’s not something that’s easily transmitted if you’re not sexually active.
Penile cancer is pretty much unheard of in the West.
Surely I’m not, Shannon. Since I didn’t even say that. And don’t call me Shirley. :)
STD testing before you get married might be a good idea.
I will not get my children vaccinated on some fear of mine that they might get molested or divorced or their spouse dies or or or……..I don’t live in fear. You are talking with someone who drank and partied and was promiscuous FOR YEARS. HPV, Cervical cancer and an abortion. High risk behavior with heartbreaking consequences.
If ALL STD’s can be avoided by abstaining then why not go that route?
Oh. That’s right. We have no self control. We are animals. We must have sex no matter the cost of our sexual, spiritual, emotional, physical health and even at the cost of our preborn children’s lives.
Vaccinate away.
Agreed Carla. If we are teaching our children self control then they can get tested before they marry. If their partner has HPV it can be cleared up.
Circumcisions does NOT cut down on STD’s. That is a myth also.
For the record, there is no test for hpv in men that I am aware of; and in women the virus can go years undetected. I don’t live my life on the what-ifs, necessarily, but hpv prevention is not as simple as “get tested” and that’s worth noting.
Some of the comments here amaze me in the extent to which people allow ‘morals’ to circumvent science and medical health.
Carla I genuinely hope that none of your children disappoint you in their choices in life. But do you really think you can totally prevent it if any of them decide to be sexually active before or outside of marriage, possibly with more than one partner? This vaccine can help to protect them, and others, if they do make such choices.
I think, if we’re going to go the prevention route, I’m just going to have my daugher fitted for a chastity belt. That’ll prevent everything!
Carla, I’m with you. We have so much in common!
I doubt you will understand this, Reality. And that is fine with me.
But nothing my children ever do or say will change my love for them. Nothing.
I will do my very best with them and then they will make their choices won’t they?
No to the vaccine.
I guess I am not sure why my experience with HPV, cancer and abortion and wanting SO MUCH better for my children is so hard to understand.
Since all of my children believe that life begins at conception and should be protected they are ahead of many of the folks who post here.
Carla I genuinely hope that none of your children disappoint you in their choices in life. But do you really think you can totally prevent it if any of them decide to be sexually active before or outside of marriage, possibly with more than one partner? This vaccine can help to protect them, and others, if they do make such choices.
Reality,
I know this is addressed to Carla but I would like to reply. Children do disappoint parents, just like parents disappoint children.
I won’t get these shots for my children, either. I have talked with them about these shots and when they are 18, they can make their own decision. My children know I have been raped and I have explained that we can’t always prevent everything. They know the realities of rape in our world and still don’t want the shots.
Carla is right on about living in fear. Throw all this at kids and make them believe that they don’t have control over anything. Why have we been setting the bar so darn low? Expect your kids to remain virgins until they are out of the house and they just might! I did. Know what they are doing and where they are. Supervise. Have them go out in groups. There are parents who allow their kids to have sex in their home for crying out loud. What message is that sending? If a child is old enough to make the choice to have sex, they are old enough to make the choice to get the vaccine or not. If they are old enough to have sex, they are old enough to live outside of the home.
If you’re gonna run with the big dogs, you’d better learn to pi*s in the tall grass.
“I doubt you will understand this, Reality. And that is fine with me.” – oh I understand, I just may not agree.
“But nothing my children ever do or say will change my love for them. Nothing.” – I would not expect otherwise. I feel the same about mine.
“I will do my very best with them and then they will make their choices won’t they?” – yes they certainly will.
“No to the vaccine.” – is that you saying that or them?
“I guess I am not sure why my experience with HPV, cancer and abortion and wanting SO MUCH better for my children is so hard to understand.” – it isn’t. I just can’t understand your denying them protection when there is the possibility that they may choose a path you hope and wish they don’t.
“Since all of my children believe that life begins at conception and should be protected they are ahead of many of the folks who post here.” – well, that’s subjective.
“Expect your kids to remain virgins until they are out of the house and they just might! I did.” – but did they?
“If a child is old enough to make the choice to have sex, they are old enough to make the choice to get the vaccine or not” – that may be too late.
“If they are old enough to have sex, they are old enough to live outside of the home.” – do you realise that in a number of countries people are staying at home or returning when they are in their mid twenties and even older?
Since they are all under the age of 14 YES that is my decision.
And yes they will disappoint me. They did today in fact.
I stand against your scenarios and pray protection over my children in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Have a good night, Reality.
Well yes it is at this stage. So if one of them does happen to become sexually active at an age younger than you would like and in a manner that you don’t agree with and then ends up with HPV or worse, will you still be happy with your decision?
Does your ‘protection’ guard them against measles or other communicable diseases?
Anybody going to point out how many girls have DIED from the vaccine and how many are seriously injured? How many have actually developed cervical cancer from it (here’s a thought, test for the disease before giving the vaccination so you don’t over dose the body with HPV)? Check out the CCD reports since it came out for the facts. My child will not be the government’s guinea pig, sorry.
But do you really think you can totally prevent it if any of them (children) decide to be sexually active before or outside of marriage, possibly with more than one partner?
Anyone who asks a question like that could not even begin to comprehend the relationship some parents have with their children. *I* don’t prevent my children from being sexually active before/outside of marriage with possibly more than one partner, just like my parents didn’t prevent me from being sexually active before/outside of marriage. That was a decision *I* made. Likewise, my children prevent themselves from sexual activity before/outside of marriage. I don’t control that or force that as a parent. A parent spends quality/quantity time with their children beginning at birth, and that choice is natural.
HPV never has to lead to cervical cancer with regular pap smears. It is completely treatable.
If anyone were to get this vaccine, doesn’t everyone realize how quickly the strains are mutating? Even if I were to ever suggest it for my three sons (and I wouldn’t), within 5-10 years there will be new and completely different strains so a vaccine wouldn’t be effective anyway.
And, it is so sad to me that the the rise in throat cancer among males is due to oral sex, which many of the younger generation doesn’t think of as “sex” (thank you, Bill Clinton). We need to define to our children that sex is anytime there is ANY KIND OF SEXUAL CONTACT – and stop leading them to believe that using some kind of birth control will be “safe.”
It’s time to be honest with kids. The consequences of sexual activity outside of marriage are no longer simply about pregnancy – but possibly the inability to have children later AND even their very lives. The consequences are SO big. We need to to let teens know we believe in them. They are strong. They can make good decisions. They can set boundaries. They really can have relationships without having sex. Abstinence is the ONLY 100% effective method against disease and pregnancy. Period.
“HPV never has to lead to cervical cancer with regular pap smears. It is completely treatable.”
I’d rather not wait until I developed cervical dysplasia to start thinking about cancer prevention.
“Carla is right on about living in fear.”
Isn’t that what Jill’s next post is all about–women marrying young and having kids young as a means of preventing breast cancer? How is making that decision any different then deciding to get vaccinated against HPV? Both are motivated by concerns about cancer risk.
“Throw all this at kids and make them believe that they don’t have control over anything.”
Still not seeing how an abstinence-only message is incompatible with getting the vaccine. A girl can be 100% abstinent and marry somebody who wasn’t abstinent before marriage. Heck, her new partner could even be born-again and totally reformed, yet still be carrying the virus. How does that have anything to do with the girl’s self-control?
Megan – with over 40 different strains of HPV, and new strains being identified on into the future (knowing that not all strains have shown to cause cervical cancer) – I see the vaccine as a false sense of security. Just as I do a condom. Even if you get the vaccine, it doesn’t mean you won’t ever get HPV. If you use a condom, it doesn’t mean you won’t get a disease or pregnant. This is something I rarely hear in the Gardasil vaccine debate. If a 12-year-old gets this vaccine, who knows what else may be lurking into the future. Abstinence is truly the only 100% effective method. Will everyone remain abstinent? No. But hopefully we can, as adults, be honest with our youth that if you mess around, the consequences will abound.
Cervical dysplasia is totally treatable. I’d take it any day over a vaccine reaction.
“But hopefully we can, as adults, be honest with our youth that if you mess around, the consequences will abound.”
I agree with that. I’m just not positive it’s even necessary to have long discussions with kids before they get the vaccine. Tdap? Meningitis? I dutifully held my arm out for the shots and was confident that my parents and doctors knew what they were doing.
“Cervical dysplasia is totally treatable. I’d take it any day over a vaccine reaction.”
Would you take a nasty case of pertussis over a vaccine reaction?
do you realise that in a number of countries people are staying at home or returning when they are in their mid twenties and even older?
You do realize that in my house I make the rules, right? If they return home because they are destitute and are married, they are allowed to sleep with their spouse in my home. If they come on hard times and return home as a single person, they won’t be having sex under my roof.
Would you let your teen/adult child have sexual partners sleep with them in your home?
Megan, this isn’t about all vaccines. This is about Guardasil which is untested (talking about longterm effects), has been shown to be harmful and DEADLY and has yet to prove it prevents cervical cancer.
Your house, your rules. But if they return home having established a sex life then they’ll still have one, just not under your roof. Or would you reject them because they have been and are sexually active?
Yes, I have done so. I’d rather know where my children are and who they are with in preference to having them feel the need to sneak off.
EVERY vaccine has a chance of producing an adverse event. Every vaccine goes through a four-phase clinical trial. Even Gardasil. Here’s an FDA report on Gardasil efficacy:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM190978.pdf
I know a lot about vaccines. I know every vaccine can cause an adverse affect. Did you know who pays for the clinical trials? The drug companies making the money off the vaccines. Do you know doctors who sit on the board of American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical boards determining vaccines have been found to be stockholders of the drug companies making the vaccines? Talk about conflict of interest. Rick Perry pushed Guardasil on the children of Texas because of political contributions to his campaign and other deals.
I do not vaccinate my son. I don’t have my own shots up to date which is good because I got rubella and now I am immune for life. So the baby I currently carry was safe.
I also realize that other people and parents may not agree with me. Thats okay. I’ve done my research and I am comfortable with the health decisions I have made for my family. When my son is an adult he can make decisions on vaccines himself.
and btw, my friend’s daughter vaccinated her newborn for pertussis and he got it anyway. Vaccines do not guarantee you won’t get the disease. I had a pro-vaccine doctor admit to me that 30% of children vaccinate will still get the disease. Vaccines do not guarantee anything and there are carcinogens in them (formaldehyde, aluminum and some still have Thimerosal) used as preservatives which parents must consider.
its a difficult topic to research and wade through because parents only want what is best for their children. People have to weigh pro’s and con’s and decide what they think is best. I don’t think this a moral issue like abortion is. I don’t look at parents who vaccinate and think “Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!” Its their decision what how to manage their children’s health. But for me, I am saying no to vaccines especially Guardasil.
I would take pertussis over a vaccine reaction, though it would be a difficult choice. When it comes to the Chicken Pox or HPV it’s easy though.
One thing that hasn’t been said her yet, Guardisil has a 3-5 year efficacy (and that’s assuming you believe it’s effective at all). Which means if you vaccinate that 11 or 12 year old boy/girl, they will be UNPROTECTED by the all powerful vaccine by the average age to lose virginity (the average is still about 19 in girls and 17 for boys, the median age is still about 17 for girls). Even if you think this vaccine is warrented (personally I think you’d have to be crazy to believe that but whatever) it still makes no sense to push the vaccination this young. Suggesting this as an optional vaccine at 15 or 16 makes far more sense then trying to force it upon 12 year olds. By the time the majority get around to sexual activity (assuming they listen to liberals and follow their baser urges instead of practicing ABC approach to sex) the vaccine will have worn off.
Me? I was a virgin when I married, my husband was not (having gotten the ‘bad boy’ years out of his system before we met). He had a full STD panel that came back clean before marriage. I had one just in case something slipped through shortly after marriage. Now, barring rape, I never need to worry about STDs again. Sure seems to make a whole lot more sense than needless, painful, expensive, ineffectual, short-lived, brand new, barred in several countries, questionable shots. Which is exactly what I’ll tell my (to be homeschooled) kids when they get older.
Why stop here? Birth control by age ten. Teach them ways to blunt the effects of booze and drugs. And why not retired Marine drill sargeants to teach hand-to-hand combat? Kids do get in fights, after all.
Can we talk about PRACTICAL ways to encourage abstinence?
I’ve often said we need to revive chaperoned dating. Yes, people could sneak out, etc. Nothing is a magic bullet. What we look for is improvement which in this case means less promiscuity. Chaperoned dating would be start.
Denise Noe, you know, I see you bring that up, and the 1st couple of times I thought you were trying to be mocking. Might I suggest a word change? There is a movement to bring back ‘courtship’ as opposed to ‘dating’. Dating is a big part of the problem. It’s, by definition, a ‘trial’ run at romance with no need of commitment and no concern over ‘failing’ and trying with someone else. Even chaperoned dating would still suffer from those problems, which is a self-defeating additude when it comes to marriage. But courtship is a much more serious (and traditional) way of looking at things. I’m not objecting to you saying you like chaperoned dating, just giving you a heads up that, if what you *mean* is courtship, I think you’d get your point across to a more receptive audience by using the term. Are you familiar with ‘Dad’s against dating’?
Personally not only would I advocate to a return to traditional courtship, but also working on destigmazing arranged marriages (not forced mind you, so really I guess I mean arranged courtships). They have a much higher rate of success than what we would consider standard romantic marriages today, and they tend to happen earlier (which helps with the whole abstinent thing. Because, reasonable, humans *weren’t* created to remain celibate throughout life, it’s a gift few have, and far better to marry than burn with lust as Paul would say)
Jespren, I googled Dads Against Dating, but all I found was Dads Against Daughters Dating, which seems to have a pretty sexist and regressive point of view (ie, “Nobody goes near my little princess until she’s forty!” instead of, for example, “I support a loving, marriage-oriented focus on youth relationships”).
Like, ok, take Carla, who is an awesome mom. I would be pretty shocked and disappointed if Carla were okay with her sons “dating,” but not her daughter. I know that Carla once said that she and her oldest son pray for his future wife, and pray that she will have the strength and support to look for him and wait for him the way he is for her – that’s a much more balanced and respectful approach to the thing than anything I could immediately find from Dads Against Daughters Dating.
Here’s my and my husband’s plan. We have 1 daughter, 13, and overnight she turned into a supermodel. If any boy wants to go near her AFTER she turns 17, he has to meet with my husband and answer 2 questions:
1. What is your relationship with Christ?
2. What are you going to do to protect my daughter’s virginity?
This will scare most of them off, and the few viable candidates can have chaperoned outings with her.
Dating is a big part of the problem. It’s, by definition, a ‘trial’ run at romance with no need of commitment and no concern over ‘failing’ and trying with someone else.
Well said, Jespren. If after “failing” at a physically romantic relationship with no commitment, a person simply moves on to another person in short order and tries again with no commitment, then the relationship is simply self-satisfying. I have heard of serial physical relationships described by way of the analogy of a band-aid placed over a vulnerable location. Rip it off over and over with each new relationship, and the band-aid eventually loses its ability to stick, and the vulnerable location simply becomes hardened scar tissue.
Hi Alexandra,
:)
My husband jokes about sitting on the porch, polishing his gun and telling the prospective boys, “I have no problem going back to prison.” It is light hearted but the protection and care of his only daughter is for real.
For my sons and my daughter the guidelines are clear. Dating is for when one is serious about marriage. Going out with groups of friends, focusing on just being friends and ignoring all of the 6th grade boys and girls so obsessed with “going out.”
That is not to say they are not interested. We talk about all of their friends and maybe the ones they like that are special to them. Do they possess qualities that you admire?
I have always pointed to the other things in their lives that are so much more important. Grades, sports, music, dancing, God, helping others, saving for college, volunteering…..
And I don’t think I can adequately put into words what it means to me to watch my husband love and cherish his daughter. It is so what I wanted as a young girl and would have helped to steer me in a different direction. My husband with his sons is also a blessing to watch. Thank God for changing a legacy.
And back to sex ed. It has been an ongoing conversation in our house. Always talked about and discussed and my children want open, honest communication. They trust their parents to tell them the truth.
Oooh Courtnay.
Love it!!
I like you more everyday!!!
Carla –
I love your focus on friends! I cherish that extended period in my life and always felt so depressed for the friends of mine who got into the whole “going out” culture. I don’t just mean dating – it was a whole lifestyle that I was fortunate enough to never be interested in, thanks to ongoing discussions with and encouragement from my parents. I did so many things in those middle/high school years! I danced professionally, I played the cello in community orchestras, I volunteered at nursing homes and centers for the mentally disabled; I taught French to elementary school kids in an extracurricular class. I took AP courses and calculus, and learned things just to learn them (oh, to have hours a day to devote to that now). I babysat and worked a mostly-miserable job at a retail store. I learned how to drive a zamboni because my best friend worked at the ice rink! I ran track and learned that I hated running; I learned that I cannot aim at anything to save my life, with any hand or foot. Even as I got older, 16, 17, 18, into years where I sensed that I “should” be behaving…differently; more “grown-up,” secretive, sullen, subversive – I took a road trip to Tanglewood with my best friend, to see the Boston Pops; I saved all my money and, with generous dollar-for-dollar matching from my parents, took a guided (but frugal – stayed in hostels or camped) summer trip to five European countries. I wrote stories and read books and started but never finished dozens of diaries. I had time and freedom that I would never have again, to just learn myself and learn who I wanted to be, who I could be.
I remember when my friends started hanging out at the mall, dating, hating their parents because they were supposed to. It was just so much time and effort and concern focused on…what? I had a “boyfriend” in 7th grade, briefly – he was one of my friends, and from the moment we were “going out” (which apparently meant never going anywhere, going far fewer places than we had as friends, because now things were Different and neither of us knew what to do) I hated it. We “broke up” and resumed actually going out in the friendly sense of the word, and we’re friends to this day – and I didn’t date a boy again until I was 22. ;)
I think your kids are very lucky to have you. I was very lucky to have my parents and I was very lucky to have those years of in-between, those years where just because I wasn’t a kid anymore didn’t mean I had to become an adult.
I love your story, Alexandra!! Your life is amazing!!
I remember the name of every boy that was kind and friendly and was just a very good friend to me growing up. I tell my boys to try and be there for the girls they have as friends. To talk and laugh and be sincere and caring toward, stand up for and be kind to. My daughter too.
Being a good friend is important.
PS believe me that my oldest son gets teased for being “just friends” while everyone else is breaking up and getting back together. He just laughs.
Alexandra, I’ve never had to look it up on line, I’ve just read articles about them randomly through the years. I know it did start as ‘Dads against daughter’s dating’, but as I understand it, it has morphed into just ‘Dads against dating’. I’ve actually seen shirts: dads against sons dating, dads against daughters dating, dads against dating, sons against dating, and daughters against dating…so pretty sure it’s rather inclusive now. There is a book called ‘the case against dating’, but I’ve never read it (although some of my friends have). Since my and my family’s views are already settled on the issue, I have been only peripherially aware, but I know the matter has been coming up with more and more frequency, especially among the evangelical crowd.
“1. What is your relationship with Christ?
2. What are you going to do to protect my daughter’s virginity?”
Wow. Pray for me to grow into that kind of a father.
Jespren says:
October 27, 2011 at 9:42 am
Denise Noe, you know, I see you bring that up, and the 1st couple of times I thought you were trying to be mocking.>>
(Denise) People often make this mistake about my suggestions. I take a fresh look at a lot of things. I have views that are conservative, liberal, and radical. If things worked well in the past but have fallen by the wayside, I tend to want to see what a revival might look like. I also want to try things that haven’t been tried before. Both types of suggestions are often mistaken for satire or parody.
Might I suggest a word change? There is a movement to bring back ‘courtship’ as opposed to ‘dating’. Dating is a big part of the problem. It’s, by definition, a ‘trial’ run at romance with no need of commitment and no concern over ‘failing’ and trying with someone else. Even chaperoned dating would still suffer from those problems, which is a self-defeating additude when it comes to marriage. But courtship is a much more serious (and traditional) way of looking at things. I’m not objecting to you saying you like chaperoned dating, just giving you a heads up that, if what you *mean* is courtship, I think you’d get your point across to a more receptive audience by using the term. Are you familiar with ‘Dad’s against dating’?>>
(Denise) I’m familiar with the courtship movement. It might indeed help to reduce the number of pre-marital pregnancies, STDs and the many other associated problems presented by promiscuity, especially among youth.
<<Personally not only would I advocate to a return to traditional courtship, but also working on destigmazing arranged marriages (not forced mind you, so really I guess I mean arranged courtships). They have a much higher rate of success than what we would consider standard romantic marriages today, and they tend to happen earlier (which helps with the whole abstinent thing. Because, reasonable, humans *weren’t* created to remain celibate throughout life, it’s a gift few have, and far better to marry than burn with lust as Paul would say)>>
(Denise) There was a study in Japan of arranged marriages and love marriages. At the time, the country had many of both types so there was a lot to study from. The arranged marriages had lower rates of divorce and IIRC, were rated as happier by those in them.
Denise Noe, it’s not constrained to Japan either. India has both arranged and ‘romantic’ marriages and arranged marriages have better outcomes (less divorces), so do arranged marriages among specific populations in Europe (the Travelers and Gypsies), and among specific groups in the U.S. (again, Travelers and Gypsies, but also Hassedic Jews, traditional Indian/Hindus, and various other groups.)
I personally wouldn’t advocate for true stranger marriages (meet for the 1st time at the alter) and, of course, I think forced marriage is *never* appropriate. But I am a firm believer almost any 2 reasonable people could spend a happy life together is they just went into it assuming it *must* work. If divorce isn’t an option people are amazingly versitile is figuring out problems and learning to work together.
Love isn’t a prerequisite of marriage (nor a requirement of it) it’s the fruit and side effect of a good marriage.
Your house, your rules. But if they return home having established a sex life then they’ll still have one, just not under your roof. Or would you reject them because they have been and are sexually active? Yes, I have done so. I’d rather know where my children are and who they are with in preference to having them feel the need to sneak off.
If they have an established sex life as an adult and move back home, they are old enough to decide about shots, etc. Maybe they are moving back home because they’ve been so enabled in the first place. Expect them to grow up and they usually do. When abortion becomes illegal, the abortion rate will stay the same too. Okay.
I bet the underage drinkers and druggies loved your home. They are probably going to drink and do drugs anyway so we better know where they are and if they are doing it safely. Hell, hire some strippers because they might go to a strip joint someday.
Btw, anything established can be deestablished. I know because I did it with a few behaviors myself.
what happens if a boy still gets HPV? There are NO TESTS to determine if he has it. Women have the pap smear, but what do men have? And this vaccine is not a substitute for pap smears OR common sense abstinence. It is possible for teens and young adults to have self control. We wouldn’t have a need for a vaccine for an STD if there was more self control!
Common sense says teach values and help your children WANT TO WAIT!
They would actually deny a kid education for not getting a STD shot. Can anyone say misplaced priorities? Government gone out of control! Homeschooling and private school attendance is going to skyrocket if they make these vaccines mandatory in order to attend public schools.
“I bet the underage drinkers and druggies loved your home.” – how gratuitously obnoxious of you to say so.
After doing rather well in high school, my son completed a hospitality industry training course for which he received an outstanding achievement award. He was head-hunted by a resort in the area in which we lived at that time.
At the age of 19 he moved interstate to live and work at a leading hotel.
At the age of 22 he returned home to live with me. I doubt he was a virgin by that stage.
He lived with me for two years before buying his own home.
He regularly receives outstanding performance awards in his current role.
While he sometimes had overnight guests whilst living with me there was no drug taking or underage drinking – these things are illegal. Sex isn’t.
My son is level-headed, successful and healthy. I would like to think that my parenting contributed to this, at least in part by example.
You need to remove your blinkers and recognise that the world is quite safe and sound even though people have sex outside of marriage, as has always happened. The best we can do is provide sound, realistic advice which will actually be listened to, provide various protections when they become available (not just sex protection) and accept that not everyone lives in some indocrinated, cloaking enclave.
Any grandkids, Reality?
No.
Congratulations. Your parenting probably contributed to this, at least in part by example.
You have absolutely no idea why I’m not a grandparent.
On what basis do you make such a statement, what is your ‘reasoning’? Come on, out with it.
he sometimes had overnight guests whilst living with me
Based on your above statement my feelings are that you’ve taught your son to separate sex from responsibility. You enabled him to have his jollies with his “overnight guests” while still living under your roof. Boy-men make for irresponsible husbands and fathers. You taught him well and he listened.
Of course, I can’t prove this is the reason you now have no grandchildren but I’m thankful my parents didn’t allow me to disrespect myself and others in their home.
I taught my son that sex has great responsibilities. Care and respect for the other person, consideration of the possible consequences and that it is a sharing experience.
Are you saying that his partners didn’t have their ‘jollies’ with him? Is this all about some sort of partiarchal subservience of the woman in the sex act?
The vast majority of people have sex before marriage and still go on to have children. Heck, even the ones who’ve had an abortion when they weren’t ready for parenthood. Your subtextual claim that men who have sex before marriage can’t be good fathers is so patently false it is beyond farcical.
“Boy-men make for irresponsible husbands and fathers. You taught him well and he listened.” - I’m not prepared to blot this site with the response that deserves.
Mutually agreed, pre-marital sex does not equate to desprespect for anyone.
And you still have no idea why I am not a grandparent. You just keep spraying your unjustifiable bile.
Why are you not a grandparent, Reality? Has your son ever married? How many guests did your son have overnight that lasted more than the night? Do you sometimes take overnight guests to his home?
I’m assuming the guests your son brought home had some jollies too so no this is not some “partiarchal subservience of the woman.” If your son’s sex-for-the-night guests had your son over at their parent’s home for their jollies, I would feel the same way. You didn’t even specify gender of your son’s overnight guests so why do you try to make this into some patriarchal issue. The way you stated it, it sounded as though he was not real selective when it came to his sleepovers. Did you tuck them in and read them a bedtime story, too?
I believe that parents (and grandparents) that let young, unmarried people have sex in their homes, are really afraid of being alone and letting the young person grow up. This is probably because they have never finished growing up themselves.
Mutually agreed, pre-marital sex does not equate to desprespect for anyone.
So you have no problem with a parent bringing home people just for sex? I see this as disrespectful (and a terrible example) to the children in the home. Are you okay with say, five 14 year-olds having an orgy in the bedroom next to yours? After all, it would be mutually agreed upon and it is definitely before marriage. Please let me know.
Carla: A man who has HPV and gives it to the woman he loves could have gotten it from another woman he loves? Am I right? No need to answer. I am being snarky.
Ah, ‘The Hunting of the Snark’…
Why my son is not a parent is no business of yours. Suffice to say that there is nothing ‘detrimental’ on any level as to why it is so.
Do you claim there is an age by which someone must marry and become a parent or they are somehow ‘lesser’?
On what basis do you claim that my son is not a parent because I allowed him to have non-marital sex under my roof?
If my partner and I were to stay overnight with my son then I guess that in your sordid mind I would be taking an overnight guest to his home. After all we’re not married so it’s not a ‘real’ relationship is it?
Ah, so because my son has actually had the temerity to engage in non-marital sex you assume he’s constantly dragging numerous women home night after night? The inside of your mind must be an amazingly alarming place. Take a headache pill – ‘Ah! You’re a drug addict!’
I don’t tuck them in and read them bedtime stories because I don’t treat young adults like children, do you?
“I believe that parents (and grandparents) that let young, unmarried people have sex in their homes, are really afraid of being alone and letting the young person grow up. This is probably because they have never finished growing up themselves.” – do you have any logical or rational reasoning behind this? Dissect it and address it for me.
Given that my son owns his own home, has owned the same car for 10 years, doesn’t do drugs, has never been in trouble with the law and is diligent in his worklife, I think I’ve let him grow up. Rather well actually. Heck, I couldn’t even convince him to grow his hair long! I must have failed, he has some conservative viewpoints.
“Are you okay with say, five 14 year-olds having an orgy in the bedroom next to yours? ” – no, and it would also be illegal. But I’m fine with my legal-aged son having the occasional overnight guest.
To draw an analogy for what you are saying here, in your mind someone who has a glass of wine with dinner once a week, or allows their legal-aged child to do so, is an out of control alcoholic who forces booze down the throats of the under-aged.
It’d be interesting to know how even some of even the most fervent anti-choicers here feel about your whole concept that they, as men, or their husbands in the case of the ladies, are boy-men who are irresponsible fathers and husbands if they happened to have had sex before marriage. What about the women, are they bad wives and mothers if they did?
It’d be interesting to know how even some of even the most fervent anti-choicers here feel about your whole concept that they, as men, or their husbands in the case of the ladies, are boy-men who are irresponsible fathers and husbands if they happened to have had sex before marriage.
Iwould answer but I am not sure what you mean by anti-choicer. Do you mean anti-choice to have sex before marriage or anti-choice to kill your children in the womb?
Why my son is not a parent is no business of yours.
I’m guessing he hasn’t told you either.
Ah, so because my son has actually had the temerity to engage in non-marital sex you assume he’s constantly dragging numerous women home night after night?
Ah, it is you who used the term “overnight guest”, not fiancee, steady girlfriend, sweetheart or even partner.
It’d be interesting to know how even some of even the most fervent anti-choicers here feel about your whole concept that they, as men, … are boy-men who are irresponsible fathers and husbands if they happened to have had sex before marriage.
There actually are some “fervent anti-choicers” who call themselves “pro-life”, are men, and did not happen to have had sex before marriage.
1) Praxedes never said men who happened to have sex before marriage are boy-men who are irresponsible fathers and husbands. Rather, the comments implied those who continue to believe into adulthood that sex before marriage is an acceptable lifestyle are boy-men.
2) Praxedes is right.
Thank you, Eric.
Parents that allow their adult children to have booty calls in the parental home, have never grown up themselves.
Funny how Reality never answered my question about the appropriateness and maturity of parents who bring booty calls home while their children are growing up.
Let me just say this about the booty calls.
I had plenty of them in my high school/home for the summer college years, and if I ever thought FOR A SECOND my parents might allow me to have one in their home ,it would broken my heart. I expected my parents to tow the line, so to speak. Glad they had the guts to do it.
My parents had lots of overnight guest and often so they divided up the rooms. Even married couples were seperated just so that they didn’t take up a room to themselves. But when there was enough room the rule was if you are not married you did not sleep in the same room. I respected them for that.
My meaning was anti-choice in regards to womens’ reproductive rights truthseeker.
“I’m guessing he hasn’t told you either” – your guess is wrong Praxedes. I’m aware of why he isn’t a parent. Are you still inferring that there is a requirement for people to breed by a certain age?
An ‘overnight guest’ can still be a ‘steady girlfriend’ or ‘sweetheart’ – it’s not an exclusive term. If it was just the one person and he went on to marry her everything would be okay then, is that what you’re saying?
Eric:
1)Praxedes stated – “You enabled him to have his jollies with his “overnight guests” while still living under your roof. Boy-men make for irresponsible husbands and fathers” – therefore if any of you men, or ladies your husbands, were permitted to have sex under a parents roof then you are an irresponsible parent and husband.
2) rubbish.
Praxedes, I have no issue with parents having ‘booty calls’.
Courtnay, you had no problem with having ‘booty calls’ yet would be horrified if your parents allowed it. How does that work?
Let’s summarise according to Praxedes.
Any man whose parents permitted them to have sex under their roof is now or will be an irresponsible parent and husband.
What about women, what’s the default there?
What about masturbation, does that damage peoples’ ability to demonstrate future responsibility if their parents didn’t prevent it from taking place. You do know that 90% of people admit to having masturbated and the other 10% are liars.
Allowing my adult son to have sex under my roof means I encourage 14 year olds to have orgies.
Parents who allow thier children to have sex are afraid of being alone – I’d love to see the science behind that!
Reality–I was foolish and young and rebellious. I was going to do what I wanted to do, and my parents weren’t going to stop me. Typical teenage stuff–my story is nothing new.
But it absolutely meant something that they did not dumb down their morality because the modern world had. Yes, I understand you see the disconnect. But that’s how I felt.
Suffice it to say, I am a well-adjusted grownup with kids, a good man, and a mortgage. I do regret the booty calls. For the most part, caused me nothing but grief.
your guess is wrong Praxedes. I’m aware of why he isn’t a parent. Are you still inferring that there is a requirement for people to breed by a certain age?
Why make it a guessing game, Reality? Let us know if your son is currently breeding someone and why he doesn’t have children. How many people has he bred in his life? Certain age? What’s wrong with breeding at 14 then? What about a classroom of 12 year-olds breeding? You state you oppose 14 year olds having orgies because it’s illegal. I guess you will oppose any woman having an abortion after it is illegal, too. Funny how you oppose children having orgies, but you support them getting abortions and having this shot at ages 11 or so.
An ‘overnight guest’ can still be a ‘steady girlfriend’ or ‘sweetheart’ – it’s not an exclusive term. If it was just the one person and he went on to marry her everything would be okay then, is that what you’re saying?
So what were these occasional nightly visitors to your son? You picked the term, not me. No, I don’t agree that it’s okay for a parent to let their adult child have one person for an overnight booty call. After all, how would the parent know if it would end in marriage?
Praxedes stated – “You enabled him to have his jollies with his “overnight guests” while still living under your roof. Boy-men make for irresponsible husbands and fathers”
Eric understood what I was saying. Sorry you didn’t. Go up and re-read Eric’s statement.
I have no issue with parents having ‘booty calls’.
Not surprising. How about parents who having orgies while raising children? Would you be okay with your son having orgies in your home if he were over 18? What about having strippers to the house? Was your son aware that you had booty calls while he was growing up?
Any man whose parents permitted them to have sex under their roof is now or will be an irresponsible parent and husband.
Again, see Eric’s comment. However, how many happily married men (and women) whose parents permitted them to have sex under their roof before they were married now look up to these liberal, cool parents? How many of these kids who were given the blessing by their parents to have sex with overnight guests have difficulties sustaining long-term healthy relationships? How many of these kids forgo having kids because they are afraid of being parents just like their own? How many of these kids grow up to see the error of their parent’s ways and are hesitant to leave their own children with these grandparents?
Regarding masturbation: Masturbation can become an addiction and can negatively affect relationships. I disagree with parents who encourage and enable masturbation the same as I disagree with parents who encourage and enable booty calls. Did your son let you know when he was masturbating and if so, did you encourage it?
Parents who allow thier children to have sex are afraid of being alone – I’d love to see the science behind that!
No science, Reality. Just watching and learning from the families where booty calls where and are allowed and enabled. Most of these parents say things like, “I’d rather know where my children are and who they are with in preference to having them feel the need to sneak off.”
Maybe these adults have a combination of fear of being alone and controlling behaviors.
You don’t even know how old my son is.
Why do you have this desperate need to try to find something that you can grasp and claim as evidence of ‘disfunction’ because he’s not a parent?
“How many people has he bred in his life?” – I’ve told you he’s not a parent.
“What’s wrong with breeding at 14 then?” – illegal.
“What about a classroom of 12 year-olds breeding?” – illegal.
“I guess you will oppose any woman having an abortion after it is illegal,” – I am law abiding. But it won’t become illegal and if it did then they will travel to somewhere where it is legal.
“Funny how you oppose children having orgies, but you support them getting abortions and having this shot at ages 11 or so.” – an 11 year old is not ready for parenthood. Having the shot is for future protection, it does not mandate immediate indulgence in sexual activity. That’s the problem with your thinking.
“You enabled him to have his jollies with his “overnight guests” while still living under your roof. Boy-men make for irresponsible husbands and fathers” – your words are quite clear and speak for themselves. Why backpedal now?
“However, how many happily married men (and women) whose parents permitted them to have sex under their roof before they were married now look up to these liberal, cool parents?” – probably most, got any evidence otherwise?
“How many of these kids who were given the blessing by their parents to have sex with overnight guests have difficulties sustaining long-term healthy relationships?” – probably very few, got any evidence otherwise?
“How many of these kids forgo having kids because they are afraid of being parents just like their own?” – probably almost none, got any evidence otherwise? My desire was to be completely unlike my own parents and I was happy to become a parent.
“How many of these kids grow up to see the error of their parent’s ways and are hesitant to leave their own children with these grandparents?” – probably almost none, got any evidence otherwise?
“No science, Reality” – well that’s obvious. Just sanctimonious judgement with no foundation apart from your own opinions and beliefs.
1. What is your relationship with Christ?
2. What are you going to do to protect my daughter’s virginity?
Maybe these adults have a combination of fear of being alone and controlling behaviors.
You don’t even know how old my son is.
Why does it matter? He lived with you as an adult for two years and has owned a car for 10 years. He is well out of high school so why the big secret about why he doesn’t have children? None of my business why he is childless but it’s my business that he had overnight guests for sex in your home? Sounds like a problem with your thinking.
your words are quite clear and speak for themselves. Why backpedal now?
True statements by me. Misinterpreted by you. Boy-men do make for irresponsible husbands and fathers. No backpeddling. If he (or she) still think booty calls are okay after they are married, they are irresponsible.
probably very few, got any evidence otherwise?
Already told you what I base my statement on. Watching and learning.
1. What is your relationship with Christ?
I fail in my relationship with Christ daily. He never fails me. I will never be able to give Him what He has given me. You can ask Him yourself how he feels about me.
2. What are you going to do to protect my daughter’s virginity?
I didn’t know you had a daughter.
Oh it’s just been fun watching you thrash around trying to find a way to declare his lack of parenthood disfunctional.
He’s just not ready yet, plus he’s not in an ongoing relationship at the moment. He hasn’t declared that parenthood is not for him. It simply hasn’t happened.
Nah, you can’t deny what you said. Stop trying to change it.
Yeah well I don’t have a whole lot of faith in the conclusions you draw from ‘watching and learning’ – would you have faith in my observations from ‘watching and learning’ the behaviors of those such as yourself?
The two questions I posted were from one of your cohorts. I copied and pasted them because they truly show “a combination of fear of being alone and controlling behaviors.” I don’t believe in something you claim to have a relationship with, so there’s no-one to ask. I had a daughter, but not for very long.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m off to find a bridge to spend some time under, I’ll be back in about 48 hours :-)
“Yeah well I don’t have a whole lot of faith ….”
That’s okay. I have enough for the both of us. (:
Be careful under that bridge, Reality.
It’s been nice conversing with you, as always. Talk with you in a couple days. :)
My meaning was anti-choice in regards to womens’ reproductive rights truthseeker.
Reality,
Can you be clearer and pick one of the choices because pro-choice to have sex prior marriage and pro-choice to kill babies in the womb are both related to reproductive rights. If you couldn’t have sex before marriage that would vertainly infringe upon your reproductive rights wouldn;t it. I think I know what you mean but you don’t seem to be able to bring yourself to clarify by saying you support killing babies in the womb. Why is that? Why does it bother you so to express yourself honestly? The reality is you are talking about pro-choice people you mean pro-choice to kill babies. But the topic in hand is the choice to have sex prior to marriage. Say it now and clear the waters. Show you have enough of a backbone to at least state what it is you stand up for and what you spend your days fighting for on this board.
“I had a daughter, but not for very long.”
I offer my sincere condolences Reality. How did you lose her?
“Why my son is not a parent is no business of yours.
I’m guessing he hasn’t told you either.”
Adults who don’t have a fear of being alone don’t act like their kids owe them grandchildren. That seems like controlling behavior to me.
Dear Megan,
Did you see this comment from Reality regarding his son not being a parent?:
Oh it’s just been fun watching you thrash around trying to find a way to declare his lack of parenthood disfunctional.He’s just not ready yet, plus he’s not in an ongoing relationship at the moment. He hasn’t declared that parenthood is not for him. It simply hasn’t happened.
It’s not that Reality didn’t want to tell me or had a problem with his son’s privacy, it’s that he has “fun watching” me “thrash around”. Someone who purposefully does this is either very immature or kinda sadistic. I want to believe Reality is just a controlling boy-man but sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between the two. Maybe he is both.
I don’t think a kid owes their parents grandkids, Megan. Please point out what part of my discussion made you believe that I do. I asked Reality the question about grandchildren to continue the debate regarding parents (or grandparents) who support giving this shot to children before they are even legally allowed to have sex.
I hope to have grandchildren someday but do not encourage or discourage my children on either choice. I do tell them how much they mean to me and that they are the best of the best that ever came into my life but I also tell them how hard parenting can be and that choosing a mature, helpful spouse is a very important decision.
I do strongly discourage them from choosing to abort any offspring that come into being as a result of their behaviors, though. You and I both know that MANY choices are made by both men and women before a child is conceived. Once you are pregnant, the choice to be a parent has been made. I sincerely hope I am raising my children to be responsible enough to never abort but I do realize that even this is out of my control. After all, they are also, unfortunately, influenced by the REALITYs of the world in addition to myself and others like me.
Praxedes, I don’t see how you can have enough for the both of us. You have faith, I don’t. Yours cannot be passed on or overflowed to me. It only belongs to you.
Nice and shady, clean, clear water and abundant fish. Lovely bridge.
Both truthseeker. I see no justifiable reason why people cannot have sex without marriage. I also see no justifiable reason why women can’t choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Yes, I support the right of women to abort a fetus. Clear?
Just one of those things truth, a newborn dies for no apparent reason. It happens less nowadays but it still happens.
Praxedes, you demonstrated such a strong desire that my son’s lack of parenthood was indicative of a negative situation that it was interesting to see how many different inferences you could display without being able to suggest that it might just be a totally normal and healthy state of affairs. I gave you opportunities but you just persisted in trying to allocate causes for a disfunction which does not exist. It would appear that you cannot bring yourself to recognise or admit that someone having a different set of values and beliefs to yours might not actually really be problematic.
Reality, I am so very sorry about your daughter.
Yours cannot be passed on or overflowed to me.
Oh ye of no faith cannot tell me of some faith, what my faith can or can’t do. This cannot be controlled.
you demonstrated such a strong desire that my son’s lack of parenthood was indicative of a negative situation
Not a desire, Reality. Just a sincere belief that your permissive parenting was not in the best interest of your son or his overnight guests. You’ve not proved anything to the contrary.
Thank you Alexandra, it was a sad loss, but time does heal.
Praxedes, your faith can only achieve things for you. It cannot impact directly on me. I cannot control what your faith does for you but neither can you control what any faith or absence thereof does for me.
So you simply cannot accept that my son is happy, well balanced and successful despite having non-marital sex. And that he will decide when he will become a parent just like 99.9% of everybody else does. Amazing.
You have provided nothing which shows that my son is or has been negatively impacted by having been allowed to have sex under my roof. You’ve tried, you seem to wish, but there’s nothing there.
Praxedes, your faith can only achieve things for you. It cannot impact directly on me.
Indirectly is alright with me. That’s how I’ve noticed faith is usually spread anyway.
Peace be with you, Reality. (:
Unfortunately the only impact I’ve ever seen the faith of others having on me has been negative.
But that’s life.
I wish peace for you too Praxedes :-)
According to Scripture, one person’s faith can directly impact another person.
Then Jesus said to her in reply, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour. (Matthew 15:28)
That doesn’t cut it Lrning. The only ‘faith’ is between the woman and her belief that it was god’s handiwork. The daughter may have managed to recover by way of her own physiology or had taken a treatment which was successful. Her mother’s faith did not directly impact on her. It only impacted on her mother.