Pro-life vid of day: Isn’t abortion good if babies go to heaven?
by Kelli
YouTube user entropyofmind (Melissa) recently asked a question directed to pro-life Christians: If we believe that abortion is the tragic taking of a human life and yet believe that children are innocent and go directly to heaven when they die, how can abortion be bad? Doesn’t it spare those aborted children pain?
[youtube]http://youtu.be/yhn3kD7v8WM[/youtube]While Melissa makes some particularly bad assumptions (pro-lifers don’t help women, etc.), her question is a good one for discussion.
How would you answer her?
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This is yet another non-sequitur proposition. Melissa fails to consider that since there is no will from the preborn to accept being aborted, it then becomes the burden on the mother to make that moral decision. Preborns have no power independent of the mother’s choices. So in other words, don’t hold the preborn accountable but address this discrepancy with the mother. It’s not any different than arguing that not fastening a seatbelt on a five-year old is not bad because that five-year old will end up in heaven anyway once killed in a car accident. What?
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By that logic, it should be both legal and moral to kill any child, because such an act would send them directly to heaven.
Her question also ignores the fact that abortion is a human rights issue, not solely a religious issue. Whether or not a dead person will go to heaven is irrelevant to the question of if it is right in a civil sense to deprive an innocent human being of his/her right to life based on arbitrary criteria such as age, location, level of development, cognitive ability, degree of “wantedness” by his/her bio parents, etc.
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You can’t serve the poor or any other population by killing them. You serve others by helping – even when things are difficult.
While the end-result is worth aiming for (getting to heaven), one can not do an evil act (killing an innocent), even for a desirable end.
This is one of the reasons mercy-killing is not moral. This is why medical experimentation on others without their consent is not moral. This is why killing the poor to free-up resources for others is not moral. And the list goes on and on.
The end does not justify the means.
We desire to help women in difficult situations with their situations – education, relationship issues, employment, housing etc. We can not eliminate a problem by eliminating a human.
Also – as a side note – if she thinks killing of the unborn to save their suffering – then why not kill everyone to save people from suffering? That would include everyone.
And if specifically her wanting to kill the disabled – then I have two thoughts – 1. The disabled allow us to respond in compassion and help to them and their families. If we kill off the disabled, then we forget how to be compassionate and creative. They have much to teach us. And pragmatically 2. if abortion is only used to deal with disabilities, would she be willing to fight for the vast majority of children that are killed for convenience. That is not enough in my opinion (we should try to save all), but in a pro-abortion-minded person, it’s a start.
Back to the main question: While the end-result is worth aiming for (getting to heaven), one can not do an evil act (killing an innocent), even for a desirable end.
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You can’t kill people to heaven.
It is every person’s right to be given the chance to know God, to Love God, and to serve God. Killing the preborn child denies him that right.
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Great post Thomas R. When a newborn, 6 month old, 1 year old, the 5 year old hey let’s not stop there a 8 year old (what the heck pick any age you want) is causing you stress, is inconvenient, unwanted and you decide you don’t want him/her anymore. Kill them and don’t worry about it you are sending them to heaven. All makes perfect sense (NOT)!
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And if specifically her wanting to kill the disabled – then I have two thoughts – 1. The disabled allow us to respond in compassion and help to them and their families
All these are great answers. There are some people here that have disabilities, others like Jack have had very hard lives. Even though I have suffered a great deal from my disability, I’m glad no one killed me, and I’m glad I didn’t succeed in killing myself.
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Yes, but killing babies so they can go to the heaven is the same as killing grown people so they can go to heaven; God gave them life, who are you to quite unlovingly rob them of the greatest gift of all? And for the person doing the deed, murder is no way to get yourself in good graces with the author of life.
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Generally, by worldly law systems, killing another human being is only OK in certain circumstances. Legitimate killing can be called “democide:” killing that is acceptable to a populace, through their governing process. The situations are well-known. These vary across governments, but include killing for self-defense, certain circumstances in war, death penalty, euthanasia, and abortion.
Not all pro-life advocates are Christian, or hold a pro-life view simply out of Christian world-view. Recognized science is that a life begins at conception. This has been recognized mainstream science for over a hundred years, recent obfuscation notwithstanding.
Some of us pro-life advocates are Christian, but we really don’t need to look to the Bible to be pro-life. just look above: life begins at conception, and most people are against killing, eccept for certain ‘democide’ circumstances.
However, since for us Christians, the world does have a creator who cares about us and has given us guidance, we know we can find convergence between typically recognized morality and science, and what our faith says.
Sure enough, on the abortion issue, things converge. As they do for many other life issues.
God gives us a commandment not to kill. Also, he encouraged us to multiply and populate the earth. He did not inform us when to slow down or stop, possibly because He has plans for the future of our planet, and humanity, anyway, and He saw no need to give us a stop-rule.
In the Bible, a pregnancy is always a good thing, and babies are always good things.
We are also encouraged to be good stewards, good bosses, and good citizens.
We are encouraged to watch out for those less fortunate than us; the phrase ‘widows and orphans’ and the term ‘sojourners’ occur often, and always in terms of looking out for the welfare of those in relative positions of social weakness.
Finally, we are given directions for how to help others enter the kingdom of God: one-to-one, let other people know that they can enter eternal life with God by accepting the price for their sins that has already been paid.
There is nothing in the Bible about getting more people into heaven by killing them before the age of accountability, or anything like that.
There are always clever retorts to be thrown out by non-Christians, who, as followers of Karl Marx, see Christianity as the enemy, and these clever retorts always show severe ignorance.
I know enough about Buddhism, Islam, Marxism, etc. to not throw out naïve statements about how they should properly be adhering to their world beliefs.
Maybe all of us Christians should be thrilled with how the Marxists in Russia and China have killed so many tens of millions of innocents, and sent so many to heaven. Yep, that makes a lot of sense.
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Okay, well, it is a safe bet that most pro life people who believe in heaven are Christians. Christians believe that it is morally wrong to kill an innocent person because they believe that God forbids it in the ten commandments. Period. There really isn’t any complicated philosophy here. You don’t have to be religious or spiritual in any sense to know such basic concepts about a major world religion. Duh. So, when someone asks such a stupid question, perhaps it is best to just give a really simple answer. Christians don’t get to decide that it is better to kill an innocent person because he will go to heaven anyway. They have to defer to what the religion teaches. The religion does not teach people to kill innocent people so that they will go to heaven.
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I like John Piper’s response:
Demons are willing to send millions of babies to heaven, if they can make millions of murderers on earth—especially mothers and fathers.
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Lol, I had this thought when I was like fifteen or sixteen because I was so “edgy”. If your idea can be thought up by some dumb high teenager it’s probably not very well thought out.
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This seems like the people who tried to BS me by saying that the kids who died in Sandy Hook got an eternity with Jesus for Christmas – the best gift of them all. It was pretty hard to remember that that was a coping mechanism in its own way, and to try to react to the intent rather than the statement.
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I think it’s a rather pointless concept. There is no heaven and aborted fetuses simply have no presence in other than a physical form.
It seems a distraction from both the anti-choice arguments as well as the pro-choice ones.
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Umm…what part of “thou shall not Kill” don’t you understand ??
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Joyfromillinois said it. “The end does not justify the means.” Just because the babies would go to Heaven, doesn’t justify the willful ending of the life by the mother.
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I happen to think that Melissa is a very good person. Sure, she may not feel so good about herself and her relationship with God, but I believe that God is loving and forgiving and Melissa will go to heaven if she dies suddenly and violently tonight.
I also happen to pity the suffering that Melissa is enduring right now. Sure, she may not think her suffering to too difficult, but I want to spare her that suffering. (Not to mention that Melissa seems to be an inconvenience in my life at this time.)
By Melissa’s moral logic, I should kill her. Anything less would be very cruel of me. And the laws of this land are immoral, because they prevent me from following my conscience and exercising my choice to send Melissa to heaven right now.
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All of this is tongue-in-cheek, of course.
For one, we don’t know what the eternal consequences are.
– Reality may be right: we may be killing a child who has no eternal desitiny. The only thing that the child has is a natural right to this life.
– Medieval Catholic theology may be right: The child has not been baptised and therefore has not been saved. Perhaps a limbo of waiting for the Resurrection of the Dead, or some other conjecture. (Modern Catholics still don’t know what happens to the murdered children. This has not been revealed. We hope and we trust in Christ’s mercy.)
– Old Protestant Calvinism might be right: The child is predestined to heaven or hell, without any way for us to know.
Melissa’s premise presumes way too much about certainty about what happens to particular souls after death.
In any case, the notion that we can kill a child who has never suffered in order to prevent some future suffering is a smokescreen…. as if abortion could ever be good for any child. Women seek abortion because they are afraid (coerced in some way) or because they are seeking greater ease in their own lives.
Abortion is the complete and total denial of every human right to the child. That is why it is a sin that cries out to God for justice.
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“if they could see that according to their own faith, that its actually not a tragedy for the children”
By this logic and false assumption of Christian teaching then Christians have no reason to oppose the killing of born children before they are morally accountable as well.
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They stop at nothing trying to rationalize the criminal act of abortion.
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We’re ignoring the mother here. When she aborts she transgresses against God’s law. She is condemning her own soul. Aren’t we concerned about the mother’s soul here? Satan uses abortion to oppress women spiritually. Keep them in bondage. Keep them from God’s grace. Keep them headed to hell. So it isn’t just the baby I’m concerned about.
Just because someone will go to heaven when they die doesn’t mean it is okay to kill them. I am not going to march into my church and shoot it up thus doing all my church family a favor by sending them to heaven. I am not going to kill myself to send myself to heaven (I’m Baptist so I don’t believe suicide takes away your salvation. That isn’t the point anyhow). If we are Christians we should follow God’s law and He said “Thou shalt not kill”. There are also multiple passages about how precious children are to God. By killing children you are heaping condemnation on your own soul. And that should concern anybody.
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This is such a lazy “gotcha!” argument. It isn’t even utilitarian. It focuses on one of several outcomes of a particular action. It seems to argue from the principle “If action X leads to at least one good outcome, then action X is morally good.” If this were so, then killing the pregnant mother would be good because the baby goes to heaven.
This could be a compelling argument if, as Sydney suggests, it was standard for those who believe in OSAS to shoot themselves immediately after accepting Jesus and becoming saved. But there is absolutely no such precedent. The argument is a pathetic attempt to “show why your own views are inconsistent” by considering approximately 1 of our views added onto the whole catalog of their secular views.
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That is a great quote from John Pieper, Navi.
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Any argument of the following form leads to widespread genocide and mass murder — or displacement and enslavement.
a) It is good to (kill, oppress, persecute) a class of persons
b) because they are special or set apart for some reason.
How many times have we seen this?
– Jews because they are an inferior race.
– Native Americans because they are savages.
– Negroes, because they are an inferior race descended from savages.
– Mentally handicapped because they are incapable and a burden.
– Christians because they have not submitted to Allah and Mohammed.
– Preborn children because they (blah-blah; we all know the list of excuses).
– The elderly because they are old and sickly and inconvenient and expensive to care for.
Of course, there is never any truth to this. Being set apart by some distinction is never an excuse for killing or persecuting a whole class of persons. In most cases, the distinctions are artificial — Jews are not an inferior race; indigenous societies are less savage than the modern society that wants to exterminate them.
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Abortion robs the child of their earthly life. And God has a purpose for that life. We don’t know what the possibilities of that life will be, but everyone’s life here on earth has an effect upon others. A child may grow up and damn herself to hell and so abortion would prevent that happening. But this is the great thing God has given us all – free will – and it is His will that we get to exercise that. God actually wishes us all to live so that we can choose to love Him and be with Him in eternity. Abortion denies the whole purpose of God’s creation.
And of course, it is the mother, father and those involved whose souls are truly at risk. I would recommend watching some videos of Monsignor Reilly, who really understands the tragedy of abortion. He goes out to the sidewalk to counsel because souls are at risk, not the babies, but the parents, medical personnel, etc.
God’s plan for all of us is beyond our understanding. And God has a plan for those babies whose lives were cut short. They will not grow up to have their own children, the line of creation is broken. They may not be damned, but their absence causes a lot of other things.
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Perhaps we Christian pro-lifers should begin conceiving children for the sole purpose of aborting them simply to populate heaven with perfect innocent babies. [Never mind where we might end up.]
Now, where is my copy of “Catcher in the Rye”?
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Well, let’s see… Why not murder newborns and children up to the age of reason, which is about seven years? None of them have sinned yet, so they’ll go right to Heaven too. What madness.
The God of Heaven and earth put these children HERE for OUR benefit, to help US work out OUR salvation by learning sacrificial love ( see the last judgement’s criteria in Matthew 25.) Those who speed the innocent on their way to Heaven speed themselves into Hell, unless they repent.
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The Bible says unbelievers are blind and deceived, so it’s no wonder most of the world has no discernment/understanding of this issue. I believe Melissa brought up some valid points, one of which is how “they”, the world views our anger about this issue. I’ll say first off there’s plenty of not only anger and downright hatred toward Pro lifers and Christians, but to go back to the point of “our anger” toward abortion the Bible says in the last days right will be wrong and wrong will be right. Any attempt to rescue the pershing – our time, our prayers, showing up for 40 Days for Life, our money is misconscrewed as anger, and who does the world believe we’re angry at? The mothers foremost – the world really believes they are offering good and viable means for women to have healthy good lives. Now, we know that’s a lie from the pit itself, but again without the Holy Spirit to give them Truth and Light they walk in darkness.
There probably are a few people on the fringes of the Pro Life movement that express anger and aren’t walking out the Love of Christ – and the very few people out there who have committed acts of violence against the abortion clinics and doctors aren’t helping. We all get lumped together and the media loves to show clips of pro lifers being ugly or negative to help their side.
I guess a good thing would be for us to examine our own hearts as we prepare for 40 Days for Life, or before we speak to someone about abortion, to watch our motives and how we speak.
To think that unborn babies who are aborted are given a pass to Heaven and that should be cool with “us” so we can chill our attitude is another wrong thinking manuever of the devil.
If one person can make a difference, then the many who love The Lord and who want to obey the Word – in choosing life need to walk in unity. There are always going to be naysayers and those who will shake their fists at us thinking they are doing God a favor.
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Every Christian wants you to meet Jesus, but it’s wrong to kill people to make that happen.
I don’t think you ever want to be on the receiving end of such “kindness”.
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Would you have wanted to be aborted so you could go straight to heaven? Or do you enjoy being alive with all the joys & sorrows that, that entails? Don’t you think most people would rather live first before going to heaven? We have all eternity to enjoy heaven & only about 100 years to enjoy life here. Plus for Christians we enjoy a lifetime so that we can give God the glory He deserves & the thanks to His Son for dying for us instead of just going straight to heaven through no effort on our part.
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