Pro-life video of the day: Women find freedom from sexual addiction
by LauraLoo
Warning: Adult content
On In The Market with Janet Parshall, Janet interviewed Crystal Renaud, founder of Dirty Girls Ministries and author of Dirty Girls Come Clean. Crystal, who is also a certified counselor, shares her own past journey to help other females find freedom from porn and sexually addictive behaviors.
Most people tend to think that pornography is a man’s issue but she mentioned that 25% of Christian women are addicted to pornography.
Crystal’s testimony segment is the first 14 minutes of the video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uR2GtzaxSo[/youtube]
Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
May.05, 2014 12:00 pm |
Video of the day |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Can’t say I’m fond of the name “Dirty Girls Come Clean” or “Dirty Girls Ministries”. Have you ever been called dirty or felt like it? It’s just not a kind thing to call someone imo. I’m glad she’s trying to help people, hope the name doesn’t turn people off.
Hm. Well it’s good what she’s doing. People definitely need to know that women struggle with these issues too.
BUT. There is a TON of shame involved, especially since it’s more taboo for women to even be what is considered “normal” for men as far as sex drive goes, so I agree with DLPL that Dirty Girls in the title is not good.
Personally, I would not go to them. I know what it’s like to feel dirty, to feel unclean, and someone who’s going to tell me I am dirty right in their name… nope. It’d turn me off. A lot of times the girls they are trying to reach know something is wrong and know they have a problem and *see themselves as dirty already*. No need to whack them on the head with it.
I’d much rather go to a ministry called something else, neutral, like centering on the freedom aspect or something than go to a place called “Dirty Girls Come Clean.”
Dirty girls is probably what they call themselves in their head, and they need freedom from *that* as much as freedom from the addiction as well.
Just my two cents as a female who, though not struggling per se with this issues, but who definitely might be considered and has been called “dirty.” It is not fun.
Jack and LibertyBelle I agree I don’t like the name. I think she was trying to have a “catchy” name for her ministry but I think the “Dirty Girls” label would be a put off instead of engaging girls to seek help from the bondage of porn and sexual addiction.
I know someone who had a friend who lost everything due to porn addiction (marriage, children, job, house, car, savings, etc.) I understand he did not even want to leave his house because he was so addicted even after it was foreclosed on. That is why I am so concerned about kids and teens getting on computers, websites, chatrooms, sexting, etc. unsupervised it can destroy them. I know not everyone will become addicted but the changes in the brain for kids and teens make them much more vulnerable to become addicted. A good book to read “Hooked” by Drs. Freda Bush and Joe McElhaney (both MDs) discusses how early sexual exposure and sexual activity changes the brains of kids and teens (when their brains are not even developed yet). May God help our kids.
I’m with you all on the name. Ugh. I wouldn’t recommend anyone go to this ministry either since the name is degrading in itself.
My husband and I touch on this topic in our religious education class but I would have never guessed the 25% figure for women.
Just like teachers and parents talk to young people about the risks of alcohol and drug addictions, we need mature adults to be talking to kids about the risk of sex addictions.
I just listened to Crystal’s story of redemption, and she has so much to offer young women who struggle with this addiction. I really respect her honesty. Maybe she will change the name of her ministry.
My oldest son told me his ex-girlfriend recently told him she is meeting men on the internet and hooking up with them for sex. I told him that I thought she was just trying to get a reaction from him and trying to make him jealous. But now I am not so sure . . . It makes me so sad.
Will you all pray for my son (who is having a hard time with the break-up and who I know has struggled with porn as well) as well as his ex-girlfriend?
Ive owned porno flicks….tossed them. Met porn stars too. On a happy note this marks one year of the Cleveland girls escaped!!!
I will pray for your son and his ex-girlfriend Prax.
Several years ago I heard a sermon by a military chaplain who discussed pornography. He generated controversy by comparing romance stories (to include novels, movies, and sitcoms like Sex and the City) to pornography. Both involve fantasy worlds in which it impossible for wives and husbands to compete, and both tear families apart.
I just watched Michelle Knight’s interview with Dr. Phil today, Heather. She talked about how Castro watched porn movies and then made her do what he saw. She was just an object to him. Porn leads nowhere good.
Michelle also made the prolife case that when she was pregnant, she wanted her babies to live in spite of the evil man who impregnated her against her will. She has a strong Trust in God and a beautiful spirit.
Ha. Eric I read one of my female friends “romance” novels and told her that she might as well have been watching porn. She wasn’t pleased with my assessment but hey, it’s pretty graphic and the clear motive of those “novels” is titilation. The difference I see is that the novels don’t involve real actors that are being harmed like porn does (you don’t have to worry about people being sex trafficked or homeless teens being paid to “star” in a “movie” when you’re talking about “romance” novels) but I think it might affect the viewers in similar ways.
I agree with you Eric. I talked with the teen girls at religious education and told them that they needed to be careful not to put trashy books/movies/mags into their heads just like the boys need to turn away from porn. One girl then giggled uncomfortably about how her mom had read Fifty Shades of Gray. I had a female acquaintance tell me I should read that book but luckily I had already read a Christian review about it — the book sounds very degrading.
Thank you Jack! Tears.
Hi yes prax i missed your post. And that was my point. Castro was a porn addict. My step daughter just went to Amandas house to do her hair for her April birthday party. My son plays with her daughter. There is a rift between Berry and Knight. I believe it was because Amanda had the baby while Knight endured severe abuse to miscarry.
Concentrating on the name instead of the purpose of this group?
What would the name be offensive? This is about cognitive restructuring and one of the ways to do so is to internalize the negative connotation of one’s actions. these women obviously acept their actions as “dirty.” Are we going to now advocate this liberal notion of “this name is bad” instead of looking at how successful this focus is?
For some reason the editor does not pop up for me. Sorry for the eye-sore typos….
Probably because referring to people as “dirty” unless they join your group probably isn’t the best way to reach out to those who need it.
Language IS important. I’ve said it a million times. People react strongly to certain language. Calling human being “dirty” is just degrading in my opinion. I’ve been called “dirty” among other names like that and it’s just not helpful to the psyche in my opinion to think of yourself like that.
Both Amanda and Michelle remain close with Gena…but not with each other. Im sure those gilrs were suffering from the Stockholm syndrome to some degree. Michelle would often tell Castro to rape her instead of Gena because she was the youngest. Knight is one brave lady! I just wish they would stick together. Amanda and Gena are going to DC tomorrow.
Sometimes it takes a wake up call like that and if one is constantly surrounded by others who only patronize him or her, one will not progress at all….
Patronizing, not calling people nasty names, same difference?
We are not going to agree on this one Thomas, I really think that’s not a kind word to use towards human beings. I put it up there with calling people perverted or vile, it’s just not productive and it HURTS.
So let’s strip the language of anything liberals consider offensive and not use words that may actually have meaning beyond patronizing. Oh wait, that was the PC movement that flopped big time…
Also Knight was made to drink tea for days ( no food) and made to do strenuous exercise until she miscarried. Meanwhile she had to play doctor on Christmas day and deliver Amandas baby. The baby wasnt breathing and Castro screamed ” If that baby dies I will kill you”! She did mouth to mouth and saved the baby.
Yes, because I totally said “this lady should not be allowed to use whatever language she wants”.
Why do you go from 0 to 60 in 0.5 seconds? There’s a million miles between “ban all offensive language” and “degrade and humiliate already hurting people”. I’m of the “I won’t use that language, and I encourage others not to as well because I think it’s hurtful and damaging” camp. Oh the horror.
I struggled with an addiction to porn from the time I was 12 until I went “cold turkey” to get away from it. It took YEARS.
My husband still struggles with it, even after (Christian/Pastoral) counseling.
Hard for me to admit it…even on-line.
The SHAME is (almost) as hard to deal with as the addiction itself-
But…GOD IS GOOD.
I’m glad you are doing better Pamela, and I hope your husband can get there too. It really does grab ya. I watched as much porn as poorly supervised boys will (which is a LOT of porn) when I was a teenager but stopped right before my son was born. A few months ago I got drunk and looked some up, but I thoroughly grossed myself out because it is pretty darn degrading to everyone involved imo. Don’t think I’ll be doing that again.
Like I said, I’d like to know whether this program is successful in itself rather than half a mile long discussion about its name…
Exactly Pamela and Jack, porn is not only degrading but harmful to al lrealtionships in the long run. Wow, I’m having a deja vu as I’ve railed against porn many times on this blog. I’m almost afraid to start another avalanche…
Not interested in an avalanche, Thomas, but so far I disagree with you on this one.
I believe many young people get hooked into porn because they have a family member/friend who exposed them to it and/or they were impressionable and/or poorly supervised or both. Maybe they were sexually abused. My son told me his ex confided to him that she had been molested as a six year old by a teenager. I don’t think this young lady needs a ministry that reminds her that she is a dirty girl.
What about a Christian ministry for overeaters that is called Fat Slobs get Thin or a ministry for alcoholics called Drunk Pigs get Sober.
Doesn’t seem very Christ-like to me and the name alone is off-putting.
I like the name Fat Slobs Get Thin. It would do wonders for my psyche. I’m 187 pounds and my doctor constantly tells me that I need to go down to 172 pounds. The only problem is that she is too gentle and acknowledging of my humanity (being a Catholic doctor at a Catholic Hospital Network you know).
Now had she confronted me and said something to the effect of that, I’d jump right on it.
Like I said sometimes we need a bucket of cold water poured on us…..
Thomas not everyone responds to the same motivation you do. And especially if we are talking matters of sex, where people a lot of times feel a lot of shame and such about anyway.
I don’t remember Jesus telling the woman caught in adultery she was a dirty slut or anything like that.
“Now had she confronted me and said something to the effect of that, I’d jump right on it.”
LOL. I think you might be in the minority on this but who knows? I know I should lose weight but I don’t think I would like a doc to use the words “fat slob.” Maybe if I had a doc I knew real well and for a long time. It doesn’t sound very professional nor caring imo.
I have heard of a young guy who was told by his doc several times to lose weight and finally the doc said, “Your as healthy as a horse, unfortunately, your as big as one too.” He knew this guy’s sense of humor though.
I asked my teenager about it and he said he thought the name would push people away. My husband said he thought the name sounds as if could be associated with a porn site.
Maybe I need an avalanche dumped on me. . . :)
This name will attract and be a fit for some. Others who do not find this name appealing will go on looking for a softer/gentler one. Its all about how the approach works. I am sure that Crystal Renault structures her therapy without that particular component being the centerpiece and is she does, the clients have already subscribed to it just being there. Maybe it works Jack so I would not minimize it just yet.
Well, I agree that most “romance” novels are porn, in essence. I’ve always said that and it totally pisses me off when pastors are talking about men not looking at porn and don’t even talk about women not reading titillating romance novels or watching certain smutty romance movies. It is basically the same thing. I’ve totally struggled with the reading part. Part of the problem is it’s just laughed off as innocent. Nope. Not so.
And Thomas, wow. I think if my doctor called me a fat slob, I might just kill myself.
“Exactly Pamela and Jack, porn is not only degrading but harmful to al lrealtionships in the long run. Wow, I’m having a deja vu as I’ve railed against porn many times on this blog. I’m almost afraid to start another avalanche… ”
Harmful to all relationships??? Speak for yourself. Porn can really spice things up in the right circumstances. I’ve enjoyed watching it with many women and don’t see the harm if it doesn’t interfere with your life.
I suppose if you were addicted to porn, and surfing, that name might pop up? I don’t like the name either, but I’m just saying … would it reach the target? Who needs the help?
Now I agree with the name, David. That totally makes sense to me.
You reminded me of the time I was re-doing my daughter’s bedroom some years back — going from a little girl’s room to a more teenage-like room and was looking for ideas/materials on the internet.
I made the mistake of typing in “teenage girl bedspreads.” Eek.
“My husband said he thought the name sounds as if could be associated with a porn site.”
This hit the nail on the head for me, Praxedes. It sounds like a tongue-in-cheek reference to stereotypical porn titles. I think that David has a point, but I still don’t really like the name.
Your story about bedspreads reminds me of a common mistake I make at work. I often browse the moulding styles available from a regional lumber chain called Dykes. I have a physical catalog, but sometimes it’s easier to just go online. [storename].com is MOST CERTAINLY NOT always the right URL to automatically type in when browsing online, though – man, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve frantically clicked out of that screen before a co-worker walks past my computer.
And Thomas, wow. I think if my doctor called me a fat slob, I might just kill myself.
No LibertyBelle you would not, it would sting for about 5 minutes and than it would sink in :)
And just in case you were serious: no you’re not one of those…. :) :) :)
Jake…i used to feel as you did. Watch a little porn..learn some new ideas on pleasing my husband or boyfriends until someone told me ” Throw that smut away.”
And the girls in porn are looking younger and younger. A pedophiles dream come true. You see titles like Hot and Willing School Girls or My First Time. Then the girl has pig tails and the guy is usually old enough to be her father. Yet they run the add before the movie saying All models are over the age of 18. Err not too sure about that.
The troll has a name. His name is Jake.
Please don’t feed him.
And Heather?
I will ask you politely to NOT get into your sexual history and life. Please.
TMI
And before you say, “You are picking on me!!” I will advise all of us to think before we type. These threads always seem to devolve into graphic descriptions of sexual acts. (you know…porn)
They have to be over 18 for the “industry” to avoid liability but the younger look is most definitely a psychological trick. Its well established that adult males are attracted to adolescent females. So this strategy works.
The only problem is that soon enough any adult male loses his desire for his wife, unless she dresses like a school-girl behind the bedroom doors and acts the part of a lolita. But the dude will still wake up at 2 am and go downstairs to fire up the laptop….
“Harmful to all relationships??? Speak for yourself. Porn can really spice things up in the right circumstances. I’ve enjoyed watching it with many women and don’t see the harm if it doesn’t interfere with your life.”
So porn has to fire up your engines Jake?!?!?! HAHA. Stallion you’re not….
Sorry for the visual Carla…
Well Thomas at the very least, I’d not go to him and write complaints about being unprofessional. ;)
That tactic doesn’t work on everyone.
A doctor once did use really insensitive, unprofessional language with me about losing weight when I was a teenager (though I was never obese, I did struggle when I was younger). And it just crushed me and took me a LOOOONG time to even get enough confidence to work out again. I have thyroid issues (this doctor was an endocrinologist so duh he should have seen the weight issues as a sign that I needed levels adjusted!). And it was just so crushing. I still remember feeling absolutely worthless after those comments.
And that’s weight issues. Not even about sex, which I think is way more personal/degrading to be called dirty about that.
But whatever. Different strokes for different folks. I guess the name might reach some women. I just wish they’d be more caring in their title.
“Well Thomas at the very least, I’d not go to him and write complaints about being unprofessional.”
Well LibertyBelle – it is the liberal way to raise the roof everytime a “slight” is perceived. I, on the other hand – would ask the doctor “why do you think I am a fat slob” or maybe tell him “you’re not a great visage to look at either” or something to that effect and just iron it out in the office. People certainly have the choice to run for cover…
I teach my sons that lodging complaints is the last resort in any relationship and that a complaint should truly be about something beyond words. That “I don’t like what you said so that I am going to tell on you” mentality is not propagated in our household.
And that’s how emotional abuse and bullying persists, because people are told it’s “just words” and to shut up about it, that it’s not a big deal.
Words cause way more damage than fists in my opinion.
That depends Jack – life is difficult and I prefer to walk through it not focused on words. And teach my sons the same. People would not be able to exist with one another if everyone just concentrated on words. And held grudges.
And as far as what you eluded to in your 2nd paragraph – experiences make us stronger not weaker (or at least should not)…
No, I disagree. Emotional abuse is very real. And I believe in a free market; if a doctor is rude and brutish and is unprofessional (ex. overweight is a professional term; fat slob is a personal slight), then I absolutely have the right to take my business elsewhere and tell people why. Or don’t you believe in free markets?
And words can cause more damage than physical assault. And I’m not petty and don’t get all up in arms and complain about people who say things I don’t like – people say things I don’t like all the time. But just because they’re just words doesn’t mean I have to not say my own opinion, or counter hurtful words.
Words can work their way into our hearts, minds, and souls more than fists or physical violence. I’m pretty sure there are Bible verses about that, how the tongue is a deadly weapon, a two edged sword.
Words matter. They matter so much more than people give them credit for.
The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45 ESV
Yes, life is difficult, Thomas. But words are real and do cause damage. So teach your kids how to *handle* words, not to just ignore them and treat them as if they have no value.
Personally, I plan to teach my children to use their words wisely and to edify or spread the truth or encourage lovingly as much as possible.
Of course words matter LibertyBelle. I did not attempt to convey otherwise.
Emotional abuse is very real as well. I agree!!
I always concentrate on the solution rather than the problem. And the solution is in how we are respond. Conditioned response is always reversible….
Did I ever say I teach my kids to ignore words? Nah. The handling of words part you mentioned was implied in my previous response.
But ignoring helps too when one is aware of the context.
So I’m confused. Why did you take umbrage with me saying if a doctor were to call me a fat slob, which is a personal slight and completely unprofessional with a myriad better ways to convey a need for the patient to lose weight, I would lodge a complaint against his unprofessional and rude behavior? How is that a conditioned response? How is that not a solution to the problem of a rude person?
Oh sorry. GUess I misread about your sons. I’ve been getting no sleep.
Don’t comment when you are struggling with insomnia, kids! ;)
Carla..i wasnt planning on that.
He generated controversy by comparing romance stories (to include novels, movies, and sitcoms like Sex and the City) to pornography
Well, I wouldn’t go as far as to say. SATC was “porn,” but I could never understand the attraction to that show. I had no interest in reading “Fifty Shades of Gray,” either. It’s amazing how many copies that book sold — everyone at Random House was given a $5,000 bonus a few years back because of it.
As for actual porn, I don’t think it’s sexy or erotic. The people look trashy and actually it turns me off. I think I menioned that my brother has an addiction to porn. He says it is a “slight” one but he has been buying it for years. He was talking to me about the different genres, “stars,” etc. and I told him that I didn’t want ot hear it, so he stopped. Unfortunately he is down on his luck now and is in a homeless shelter run by the Vincentians. He was caught with porn magazines and was almost kicked out. He promised never to bring pornographic materials into the facility again, but its’ such a strong addiction, I don’t know if is able to resist. If he gets caught it with it again, though, he is out for good.
And Carla..let me ask you this…why would you even put this thread on a pro life site???
I spoke of Castro and the kidnapping victims and porn addiction. And at 44 Ive seen porn. You mean to tell me you have 4 years on me and you never have? Pfffft. yeah right..
I am once again a happily married woman.:)
Carla please STOP picking on me!!!!!
Regarding you May 6, 2014 at 12:46 pm questions LibertyBelle:
you ask: “How is that not a solution to the problem of a rude person?”
That’s for you to decide LibertyBelle:
– what does the complaint accomplish in the long run for you (not the clinic)?
– what is the actual effect the complaint will have on the person you are complaining about and how will it achieve your desired resolution? Again you is the operative term, not the doctor.
I’m more of an active problem-solving proponent rather than reactive.
And Carla youve just called me out again. I ignore you now…id appreciate if you would please ignore me and let it go. Its obvious you cant. If i post something you dont like just delete it and please move on.
How is calling someone out on rude behavior not active problem solving?
I thought you were still on about the doctor issue LibertyBelle. But I see now you shifted focus.
What’s rude for you may not be rude for that person or vice versa. Rude is rude but it is different from name-calling or emotional abuse. So I don’t think that furore would be warranted.
On this blog some have decided to be rude to those who are rude to them :)
Ignore me all you would like heather and but I still have to moderate. So no I won’t be ignoring you. I will be reading comments. ALL comments. That is why I get paid the big bucks around here.
And no I am not picking on you. I just know where your comments always seem to go.
This video comes courtesy of LauraLoo. Ask her why she posted it.
And before you say, “You are picking on me!!” I will advise all of us to think before we type. These threads always seem to devolve into graphic descriptions of sexual acts. (you know…porn)
That could have been said in a private email and you know it.
“On this blog some have decided to be rude to those who are rude to them ”
;)
Will you read a private email from me?
Sounds good.
Good hypocrite go for it!!
Sure will and u shall get it back you fake!!
Okay everyone, let’s just calm down a little.
No I haven’t decided to shift focus. But lodging a complaint against a doctor who is rude *is* an action approach or whatever you said.
And it seems nicer than to rudely say “Well you’re fat too!’ or something. I dont’ know.
Idk who gave me thumbs but ty!
I’m calm, JDC. lol I’m like deliriously tired and unable to sleep. Woohoo! ;)
“I’m calm, JDC. lol I’m like deliriously tired and unable to sleep. Woohoo!”
Good to know.
I just gave you a thumbs up Jack and you noticed :)
Oi but calling someone a fat slob is name calling. To go back ot the example.
Heather – I ain’t getting in the middle of this one sorry :(
Did you try counting sheep LibertyBelle. Oops was I rude? :)
Thomas R I am 44 years old I think Ive got this….thanks anyway
lol it’s not rude. But sheep wont help. I tried. they ran away and/or turned into dragons
Hi heather,
There is no name calling here. But you know that.
“Oi but calling someone a fat slob is name calling. To go back ot the example.”
LibertyBelle: if I were severely overweight or let’s take my original example of me being 187 lbs instead of the doctor-desired 172 lbs – I would and need a wake up call. Its better than all those fad diets and being patted on the back for “trying.”
Regarding being overweight: After I was hypnotized for smoking, the hypnotist told me that the average person gains 20 pounds after they quit. I thought, I can handle twenty pounds because I was pretty trim at the time. Then the hypnotist added, “If you gain weight, you can come back to be hypnotized for weight loss.” It’s been over seven years since I quit smoking, and I’ve put on about 45 pounds. But the hypnotist was more overweight than I am now! He must have been in denial about his own weight to offer to help me if I gained any.
Regarding name calling: I got so used to verbal abuse during my first marriage that I make the joke that I bought myself a necklace with the letter “C” on it thinking that the four-letter word that starts with a “C” was his pet name for me. My ex called me fat, fat pig, cow, etc. and told people he was going to tie me to the back of the truck and make me run if I gained any weight. And I was tiny then! I think there are better (and more Christian ways) to talk to someone about their weight.
I would complain if a doctor called me a fat slob and would not go back to him/her. Unprofessional and abusive, imo.
“I think that David has a point, but I still don’t really like the name.”
I agree 100%, Alexandra.
“That “I don’t like what you said so that I am going to tell on you” mentality is not propagated in our household.”
So you’d wouldn’t want your wife to tell you if your son/daughter was calling your wife a fu*#ing fat b#tch in your home? Words can hurt just like a slap. Probably more.
Prax that part of your hypnotist gaining weight made me chuckle…as for an abusive relationship I was in one too. It didnt start out that way. Gradually he became abusive. We had 2 children. After the birth of our son it seemed to really get bad. He would backhand me over the sofa and id get a bloody lip. He raped me once which I did not report to the police. Ohio had the common law marriage act back then which is a bunch of bunk…i figured the cops would just laugh at me. As the end grew near he tried to stab me and I had to break the front door. I began running as he started up the car. He actually tried to kill me that day. What saved me? The concrete base of a flag pole. I was screaming and saw the pole.. I jumped up and he slammed it. Now people saw what was going on and called the police. Should have been attempted murder ….he did like 1 day in jail. He finally met another woman and I was so happy. He left!:) He will be 50 next yr. I saw him at our daughters graduation. Otherwise we have no contact.
After that relationship ended I vowed I would never let anyone abuse me again. To this day nobody has:)
Prax thats the game they use…lower our self esteem so we feel bad. So we feel so bad about ourselves nobody would want us. I got my digs in here and there ….one morning while leaving for work I said “Have a nice day loser..” I was in my 20s and I hated this man yet I couldnt get him to leave.. And there were days I hit him back but that generally led to me getting it worse. Its a cycle…..abuse….honeymoon phase…defend abuser for whatever reason …..abuse may not happen again for a few months but it will happen.
Sorry faze.
A doctor calling a patient a fat slob is inappropriate. What if a psychiatrist called you a mental case? That doctor is lucky nobody reported him. Ive reported doctors the the Ohio State medical Board and I had one fired from an Urgicare.
Hi Heather, I’m so happy we got out of abusive relationships alive. I do think many physically abusive relationships start with names like “dirty girl” and “fat slob” and escalate from there.
The doctor calling someone a “fat slob” was a scenario here but I strongly oppose Thomas’ belief that it would be okay as a wake-up call to someone who is overweight.
And Thomas, if you are still here, would you call a child of yours a fat slob? Or be okay with your parents or wife calling a child a fat slob? I’m confused and surprised by your statements.
I think Tonys 2 favorirs were the W And B words.
Sorry favorites…..Prax thats probably what the doctor calls his wife.
“I would complain if a doctor called me a fat slob and would not go back to him/her. Unprofessional and abusive, imo.”
What’s abusive is what we do to our own bodies – and then we expect being handled like Faberge eggs?!?!?! Wow…
Due criticism is often needed, beyond that we just wail in self-pity and blame everyone else for daring to shake us up a bit.
Thomas why is there no middle ground with you? Anything other than name calling is “coddling”?
I’ve been called plenty of names and the only thing that ever has gotten through to me is kindness. Some people do not respond well or react well to “tough love”.
And name calling is not “criticism”. Criticism would be your doctor saying “Thomas you are 15 pounds to heavy you need to lose weight now”. Name calling is calling you a fat slob.
What if you came home and called your wife a fat slob every day? What do you think your marriage would be like?
I don’t think that it is at all “treating someone like a faberge egg” to expect a doctor to say, “Your weight concerns me. It is too high and without modifying your diet and exercise, you are likely to see real health problems in the future” instead of “you’re a fat slob.” There is a middle ground between “coddling” and “ridiculing.” It’s pretty huge, actually. It’s the place where you can use the vast majority of the words in the English language to say what you mean without being insulting.
Just like there’s a middle ground between “saying nothing or slinging an insult back at him,” and running crying to mommy or the boss or the teacher or whoever. Saying, “I don’t appreciate being spoken to like that and I find it inappropriate” is not in any way the same as “focusing just on words” – or “raising the roof” whenever a slight is perceived. It is communication, which is important. Communication is why we HAVE language in the first place – and communicating that someone’s language has been offensive in a certain situation is perfectly reasonable, especially in a business context where that person or company deserves to know that they are risking or losing customers.
Thomas, that’s what I was trying to explain to you about words. There are a lot of them and there are more effective ways to motivate people than resorting to using degrading language. But it can still be a truth, maybe even a difficult truth.
When my husband brings something to my attention, I respond well when he says “I love you, but this area of your life concerns me because it is negatively impacting xyz.” It’s the truth. It’s not coddling.
In the weight/doctor example, I will not be comfortable if a doctor says “Your weight concerns me. Here’s how we fix it.” Because that’s not an indictment upon my *character* but rather a specific problem. Calling someone a fat slob is an indictment upon their character. You can still be realistic but kind.
And for certain (I’d argue most) people, kindness is the best way to motivate them. When someone is rude to me, even if it’s true, I automatically tune out what they want to say because obviously they do not respect me enough to tell me the truth in love or even civility.
“Thomas why is there no middle ground with you? Anything other than name calling is “coddling”?
– when it comes to one’s health there is no middle ground – you’re either healthy or choose not to be. The choice is either/or, not maybe…
Some people do not respond well or react well to “tough love”.
– there is a point when kindness needs to stop and tough love initiated. As parents we all know when enough is enough and it is applicable to other life issues as well….
“And name calling is not “criticism”. Criticism would be your doctor saying “Thomas you are 15 pounds to heavy you need to lose weight now”. Name calling is calling you a fat slob.”
– When it reflects the reality of the situation than I would disagree (fill in a scenario that may reflect that)…
“What if you came home and called your wife a fat slob every day? What do you think your marriage would be like?”
– Well, she is nowhere near that so we may never know :)
“- Well, she is nowhere near that so we may never know ”
Wait, don’t skip the question. If your wife packed on fifteen pounds you’d be totally cool with calling her a fat slob, right? Otherwise you’d be coddling her and destroying her health, right? Maybe every time she picks up food other than carrots and broccoli you could mock her a bit, tell her it’s going straight to her butt? It’s all out of concern for her health and we certainly wouldn’t want to coddle her, right?
Obviously you wouldn’t talk to her like that (I HOPE!!) but maybe you can see my point. There’s “Honey, I’m concerned about your health since you’ve gained this weight” and “Honey you’re a fat slob”. Those statements are not equivalent. And whether it’s a healthcare professional or a spouse I don’t think the second statement works to motivate people to lose weight.
My ex had plenty of choice names and emotionally abusive attitudes towards me (it bothered me WAY more than the physical abuse for the most part, to be perfectly honest). Telling me I was a pathetic emotional wreck or a clueless loser might have been honest in some brutal way but was certainly not a good motivator. All it did was make me exceedingly depressed (I’m only touching on the name-calling that was somewhat accurate, like most abusive spouses a lot of the name-calling wasn’t anything I was actually doing wrong). And I remember being in rehab, if any of the doctors and counselors there had called me a “stupid junkie” or any of the other names I’d always been called I really doubt that I would have been able to kick my heroin addiction. Mocking and tormenting people is not good motivation. This is like backed up by plenty of psychological research that I’m really surprised you don’t know about, being a counselor.
Thomas it sounds to me like you’re confusing enabling (which is supporting the unhealthy behavior) with supporting the person (which is NOT supporting the unhealthy behavior). You can support an over or underweight person with enabling their unhealthy eating habits without calling them names. Same for drug addiction, mental problems, etc.
Whoops, I meant you can support an under or overweight person WITHOUT enabling their unhealthy eating habits, lol.
You can support an over or underweight person with enabling their unhealthy eating habits without calling them names. Same for drug addiction, mental problems, etc.
^ This. 100%.
And Thomas yes as a parent I do know sometimes you have to say enough is enough, but I try to and pray that I say it kindly but firmly.
Jack regarding your May 7, 2014 at 1:23 pm response to me:
Would “honey, this living room is not big enough for the both of us” be something you’d agree with? Subtle but with a double entendre to it :)
“This is like backed up by plenty of psychological research that I’m really surprised you don’t know about, being a counselor.”
You obviously do not get the reason I always exaggerate and over-emphasize some issues. And I’ve only done it since joining this community.
Maybe I need to stop assuming that people can read between the lines in my comments????
“And Thomas yes as a parent I do know sometimes you have to say enough is enough, but I try to and pray that I say it kindly but firmly.”
LibertyBelle, we DO NOT abuse our children in any way, shape or form. We raise them the “Polish way” not the “mainstream way.” Not
enough time to go into the differences :)
When did I say you abused your children? I did not say that.
The Polish way isn’t the only way to raise kids. You’re obviously free to raise them however you want. I was just making a statement in response to your comment about being firm with children. Harsh doesn’t equate abuse, necessarily. There’s a spectrum in parenting, for sure. I would never assume you abuse your kids – you speak highly of them here. Doesn’t mean we’d see eye to eye in raising kids.
And I have dear friends who are Polish-Italian so I’m pretty familiar with the Polish way. ;)
Whoa whoa whoa Thomas who said anything about you abusing your children?
You and your wife might have the type of relationship where you can call each other fat slobs or whatever and it doesn’t come across as abusive or demeaning. I guess some people are like that. But while I don’t pretend to be an expert on women (HA!) I am pretty sure that most ladies would not appreciate the fat jokes and “fat slob” comments, and I doubt it would be motivational for most of them. Or most men for that matter (but because men are judged on their appearance less often I think physical jokes about men like that tend to sting less).
And anyway the thread was about whether it is hurtful to refer to women and girls with sex addiction issues as “dirty”, which is a bit different than the weight issue. There certainly is a sense in our culture that women are forever “soiled” if they ever have issues with promiscuity or (gasp!) enjoy sex which is one of the reasons I don’t think this language is helpful. Women involved in sexual addiction have heard it all before and I don’t think the people reaching out to help should reinforce those nasty words towards these people. It’s a bit different for men because heterosexual men don’t often get shamed for being sexual (they get shamed for NOT being sexual which is another can of worms). I suppose the male equivalent would be the insistence of people on calling gay and bisexual men perverse and vile etc etc. It doesn’t help, that extra shame just causes people to give up imo.
Oh, and really is there anyone who is overweight, or underweight, who doesn’t know that a lot of people judge them very harshly for their weight? I’ve never met an overweight person who is unaware they are packing a few extra pounds (and I’ve met a few perfectly lovely ladies who apparently think they are the fattest people ever born, which I think is terribly sad) and I don’t see how telling them they are fat slobs or making weight jokes or whatever is going to motivate them. The way that overweight people get treated in general is already pretty harsh, I don’t see how MORE stigma and nasty language is going to improve the issue. Same thing with female “promiscuity”. I’ve seen women my age who have had two boyfriends ever in their lives called “sluts”, or get accused of being filthy for a simply flirting with a guy. I don’t think calling them dirty is something new or a “wake up” call or anything.
Yes Jack Im pretty much underweight for my height. You might be surprised at how often people ask me how the heck do you eat like that and stay so thin? I had to fight to put on 15 pounds. It can actually make me feel bad when the person next to me isnt slim. I just have a fast meabolism.
Yeah heather… my ex-wife is quite thin (she would never listen to me but she does struggle with under-eating and “dieting” when she definitely, 100% doesn’t need it) and she used to get bullied by some, um, larger ladies at her old work. Now, my ex isn’t very nice (she’s even unintentionally rude, she just doesn’t get that some people are sensitive lol) and I wouldn’t be surprised if these ladies were reacting to rude comments, but still. My ex used to come home from her old work in tears because of the “eat a cheeseburger” and anorexia jokes which I think is just as bad as bullying someone because they are overweight.
It certainly seems like women bear the brunt of body bullying. I’ve always been pretty skinny (and was downright emaciated when I was on drugs when I was a teen) and people rarely say anything except sometimes dudes will make jokes about how I must be weak.
Oops metabolism. Idk it seems people really want to dote on you when youre thin. I work with another skinny girl who was telling people shed gottenn her ccw permit. One guy commented ” Youre so tiny where are you gonna hide it”? It can make you feel kinda bad at times because unless you have an eating disorder its not something you choose.
My grandma was Polish – spent her childhood in the old country before emigrating to the US and everything. She had ten kids, five before WWII and five after, with a five-year break in the middle during “the hard years.” She was CERTAINLY a believer in “quit yer whining;” she made all the clothing (plus Sunday hats!) that all ten of her kids wore, except their Catholic school uniforms, which they got through the church/school. Anyone who wanted “real jeans” was welcome to go out and get himself a job, in her opinion. She killed and cooked the family’s pet rabbit when food got really scarce at one point, and served it night after night until each kid in turn ate it through their tears, because it was the only food they had that week and she sure as heck didn’t kill that rabbit just to throw its meat away because some ungrateful children wouldn’t eat it. The hairbrush was used as often for a swat on the rear as it was for brushing hair. The day that a pack of cigarettes went a single penny over what she considered a reasonable price to pay, she indignantly quit and never smoked another in her life. She had a will of steel, and no patience for anyone who didn’t. And she would NEVER have called anyone a fat slob. She’d have been okay saying, “You need to watch what you eat,” but she would have considered it appallingly rude and indecent to use such gratuitously insulting words when speaking to another human being.
Yes Jack there was quite a debate on facebook about the Dove Soap women vs the Victorias secret women. It said the Dove women werd real women with curves. We skinny girls pounced on them. We asked so if youre thin youre not real. Would you be upset if I told you to lay off the burgers but its ok for you to tell me to eat one?!!!
To add Jack I am 6 feet tall and at my lowest weight I wore a double zero.
Yeah heather I hate those “real women have curves” and “men like meat, bones are for dogs” because it’s REALLY hurtful towards thin women (who are just as “real” as a curvy woman). It’s just another form of policing women’s bodies and I don’t think that women’s weight should be viewed through a lens of what men find “hot” anyway (men find plenty of things “hot”, and health is separate from appearance anyway). I understand people are trying to encourage body acceptance for women who are not a size two but there’s no need to bash on skinny women while doing so.
And all that female body bashing ends up in un-winnable arguments like I used to have with my ex:
Her: “Do you think I should gain weight? The doctor said I should gain ten pounds.”
Me: “Well it’s up to you but if it’s for your health-”
Her: “Oh so you think I’m too skinny and unattractive?”
Me: “No I think you’re beautiful but I think a BMI of 17 isn’t a great thing-”
Her: “You think I’m digusting!”
Me: “There’s simply no way I can say the right thing, is there?”
lol.
Yeah deluded then you get those totally annoying women who are 100 pounds. They wait for an audience and go “I have got to lose 10 pounds.”
I get the impression that the women who do that are insecure about their attractiveness and are looking for compliments and reassurance, or sadly some of them might have eating disorders. It makes me sad for them. It seems like body image is much easier as a guy, at least I’m vain enough my ex dedicated that Carly Simon song to me (yes I know vanity is as bad as insecurity leave me alone people lol).
And also in order for me to gain weight I had to quit smoking and eat high calorie foods almost all day every day. I dont exercise.
I just have the long bone structure and I am not easily offended. Not too long ago 2 girls remarked “I wish I was thin like you.” It was flattering as they were both in their 20s! But sad at the same time because they were both very pretty and not fat at all. Poor body image at that age and unless they had my bones it wouldnt look the same.
I am not really interested in anything about my body other than its health, and I’m even less interested when it comes to bodies not my own, but I think it would be obvious that just like there are people who are thinner than average and are still healthy, there are people who are heavier than average and are still healthy. Yet another reason not to call names or be rude when talking to people about their bodies.
I had a nutritionist absolutely freak out on me because I wasn’t gaining enough weight in pregnancy. I was three pounds under the lower end of the weight-gain trajectory. I told her that I am very short (5′ tall) and also that I work a very physical job, so stopping that physical work probably lost me a lot of muscle mass, which would decrease my overall weight even as I gained baby weight. She wouldn’t relent, she lectured me about “dieting,” and she made me keep a food diary for a week. When I returned, she took one glance at my food journal and gasped and said, “Oh, you’re eating far too much! This is going to catch up with you and make you fat!” So I was basically lectured, simultaneously, for not gaining enough weight and for eating too much. Sometimes, numbers really are just numbers. They are a good starting point but not a good ending point. It’s best not to focus so intensely on them that we can’t see the broader picture of health – or the human being we’re speaking to.
Wow Alexandra…you couldnt win could you? Iin my second pregnancy I was told the same. My doc was very nice but she was scaring me saying “You too little when I measure baby.” My son was a healthy 7lbs 11 oz.
Jack: Just to respond to your suggestion that my wife and I have some type of relationship.
Have you ever considered that many of my comments are exaggerated to elicit a discussion? Peruse my posts and figure out my writing style and how I phrase some issues and all of the sudden a thread expands. Like I said, I’ve got to stop assuming people can read between the lines of my comments….
Alexandra, thanks for sharing.
Consider that your grandma was old-school Polish. The generation of post-cold war Polish are quiet different. :)
There are far worse things to worry about other than weight but we do live in a culture obsessed with body image.
TR my husband is polish:)
Yeah I know there are many of us all over Heather. I don’t know whether its good or bad? :)
For someone who uses hyperbole as much as I do I certainly don’t understand it very well when others use it Thomas lol. I’m pretty dense sometimes so if you want me to get what you’re saying you might want to spell it out.
“Consider that your grandma was old-school Polish. The generation of post-cold war Polish are quiet different.”
More enamored of gratuitously rude forms of self-expression? That seems to be the case with the generation of post-cold war Americans, too, but I wouldn’t say it’s a good thing. Regardless, you don’t have me convinced. I have family in Eastern and Central Europe, and my older sister in particular lived over in that area for years. I can’t imagine anyone I know over there thinking it’s anything other than unnecessarily rude for a doctor to call a patient a fat slob.
You didn’t answer a question posed to you earlier: would you allow your child to call your wife a b*tch? I am interested in the answer.
got it Jack, spell it out I will – but than you’ll accuse me of being rude or something to that effect :)
We were never discussing insults Alexandra. I think there is a world of difference btw “fat slob” and the other phrase you used, don’t you? It is obvious that children to adults or adults to children verbal interaction is not even open to interpretation, so the answer to your question is NO. But also consider that on some threads here, women were referred to as such because the context was proper….
In what context is it proper to refer to a woman as a b*tch? That is a genuine question. Is there, similarly, a context in which it is NOT appropriate to refer to an overweight person as a fat slob?
One of my colleagues at work walked in on his wife in a compromising position(s) with a mutual friend about 3 years ago. He used two choice words at that moment he told us – one of the them was the b…. word and the other was the w…. word and stormed out. They were married about two years and had an infant together. I’ll leave the interpretation to you whether it was appropriate usage or not.
I t may not be appropriate to refer to another person as a “fat slob” if there are thyroid issues or other predispositions beyond the persons control.
Hope I covered both of your scenarios…
I meant more here on some threads, as you mentioned – you said “on some threads here, women were referred to as such because the context was proper.” I know that people insult others in anger but I am trying to think of a “proper” context for such an insult in this forum. Can you help me?
“One of my colleagues at work walked in on his wife in a compromising position(s) with a mutual friend about 3 years ago. He used two choice words at that moment he told us”
Maybe she got tired of being called a fat slob and wanted to see if she could persuade him to call her something a little more flattering. :)
You’d have to peruse comments posted under some very controversial topics on sexuality (prostitutes) and such or some other threads. I don’t remember the exact threads but there plenty of the b and w words thrown around. I think that context is everything most of the time….
Hi Praxedes – I did not inquire about her weight but I seriously doubt it :)
Can we not always blame the guy when women cheat?
He shouldn’t have called her those names though.
Alexandra: I don’t know if you meant whether people called commenters here those choice words. If you did I don’t recall and I would not approve – the context would be inappropriate…
Thomas I think sometimes people have used the “w” word on this site, but I don’t remember the “b” word being used where it wasn’t deleted. I don’t think gendered slurs are appropriate anyway.
I disagree Jack – he should and had every right to do so. the context informs me of that. Obviously he was not into reconciliation….
Jack, re your May 7, 2014 at 9:14 pm: like I said I would not have approved those words being used toward another commenter because of the context.
Just because someone hurts you doesn’t mean you have a full right to do whatever you want back. My wife cheated and I didn’t call her any slurs, but to be fair I was too tired to argue at that point.
I did once call her the “b” word when she hit me and nearly broke my nose once. I apologized quickly because it’s still not okay to use those slurs even under provocation.
Jack that was your choice not to stoop there and it was also your choice in the second instance as well. Personally, I prefer victims standing up for themselves and forgive me for budding in, the apology that followed from you was not warranted within that context.
Some may have another idea of expressing their frustrations and if its the right context, I am not going to criticize them for doing so. We are responsible for our expressions one way or another…
I think the apology was warranted, her bad behavior didn’t excuse my reaction IMO. And plus If I hadn’t apologized there would have been more violence. But anyway, like I said, you don’t get full rights to respond however you want to people hurting you. Men shouldn’t hit women back who hit them, you shouldn’t use slurs because your spouse cheated, etc. That’s the way I see it at least.
If I makes you feel better Thomas I did plenty of times use rude language and never apologized (not slurs or name calling) in reaction to violence, but it just made it worse. Sometimes the (valid) frustrated reaction isn’t the correct one.
Jack, as the Bible says, a soft answer turns away wrath… I’ve found that to be true as well. Things progress better when there victim can react calmly. Mostly.
Yes indeed Jack its difficult. My pastor gave me some good advice …he said ” If you argue with a fool you become one.” Im much better than I was. Violence in my household made me violent. It took years to get bback to where I was pre Tony.
People have full right to be as rude and as reactive as they wish. This “just because someone hurts you, you do not have full right to do whatever you want back” only applies to physical violence in return Jack. So no physical violence but expression-wise I disagree with your stance.
“Sometimes the (valid) frustrated reaction isn’t the correct one.”
According to whom LibertyBelle – someone who is not there and is not privy to the context? or some expert on TV?
Or is the response controlled by you and is based on how you perceive the context?
Taking the power of the situation from you is what I have a problem with. I would never take control from you. How to respond to a situation is your decision alone and is not to be dictated by someone who has no clue about your circumstances or just wants to keep you in your place.
If the situation is made worst, one can always leave…
“You shouln’t use slurs because your spouse cheated.”
Wow Jack! the way I see it you are intent on making such an individual a victim. They can’t respond at all. They just need to shut up, lower their head and say “I deserved it you had every right to do it” “IT WAS YOUR CHOICE” “And now let me just pack and leave and but away you can take the house and the car.”
People have no right to expression of anger even if its using language that reflects the context. Truly liberal notions here.
I didn’t say that people can’t respond, even in anger. I just don’t think slurs help situations and such. I don’t really want to keep this thread going because it’s the same thing over and over.
“I would never take control from you. How to respond to a situation is your decision alone and is not to be dictated by someone who has no clue about your circumstances or just wants to keep you in your place.”
Unless it’s me and then you’ll tell me what apologies were warranted and what reactions are wrong. ;) So you’ll take power from someone if they respond too pacifist for your taste.
Jack you asked me a very personal question about how would my wife respond if I called her a fat slob and two comments after that one, you also postulated that my wife and I have that kind of relationship in which we call each other names.
NOW – you take offense because I stated “forgive me but” and than gave my opinion that this response is not warranted???? Get real Jack: taking offense at that after making such a sweeping assumption about my marriage!!!
I don’t think you actually read and think about your comments but only comment to argue your point without any forethought to it…. ;) ;) ;)
I’m not offended in the slightest, slow your roll just a tad. I don’t actually care if you critique my responses to my ex as long as you aren’t calling me names or slurs lol.
I was making a point. You said that you leave it up to the victim of whatever circumstances how they respond, and that you don’t critique it. I was pointing out that you do critique responses if you don’t feel they are correct, just like we all do.
And I very specifically said that obviously you would not talk to your wife like that or she you. I have no idea how y’all talk to each other. The whole point of that comment of mine was to point out that people are different but on the whole most people don’t respond well to be insulted as motivation.
So again, slow your roll. Take a deep breath and don’t abuse emoticons. ;)
The roll is picking up speed at your end Jack ;)
There is no power in responding pacifically:
– hunger strikes end in the pacifist’s death
– peaceful marches end in nothing accomplished
– turning the other cheek ends in a bruise
– apologizing when its not due ends in the other person
controlling the pacifist.
So slow down a tad and give the above some thought…
I think there is power in pacifism and less aggressive approaches, and that sometimes a gentle or non-aggressive approach can be the best. There’s great power for the individual to refuse to be brought down to the level of the aggressor/abuser.
I don’t remember MLK, Jr’s famous speech “I have a dream that one day we can lynch white boys like they’ve done to us!”
That was an exception Jack. That March had power in bipartisan support of the masses.
But when one considers relationships where there are DV or abuse issues, being a pacifist is a not a good thing…
Well like I said I didn’t like getting upset enough to be brought down to her level. And an angry response on my part almost always resulted in more violence on her’s. And if we’re strictly talking female abuser/male victim you literally have no option to “fight back” so you have to figure out a way to keep things from escalating.
Other people may have different ways of dealing which is fine. I still don’t think slurs help situations. And especially when we’re talking about cheating, which you can simply turn and walk away and file for divorce. Calling her slurs doesn’t seem to help your situation much.
Calling her slurs doesn’t seem to help your situation much.
That colleague of mine I mentioned, felt much better when he uttered those two choice words. And he recovered rather quickly and moved on. He is in another relationship and they seem happy. Oh, and she has not cheated on him as far as I know :)
Unless it’s me and then you’ll tell me what apologies were warranted and what reactions are wrong. So you’ll take power from someone if they respond too pacifist for your taste.
I have to distance myself from this comment as it promotes for people in abusive relationships to respond pacifically and in essence speaks to just taking the abuse. It is mentality such as this that maintains women and men in DV relationships and gives the power to the abuser, and takes the power from the victim.
I am totally dismayed that the commenter would promote this idea that pacifism in abusive relationships gives the victim power (the last paragraph of that sentence). I am also dismayed that this comment, given how it treats victims of abuse, would get a “like.”
I therefore distance myself from those two individuals and want to make it clear that I wholeheartedly disagree with re-victimizing victims of violence by advising them to be pacifists as a response to being abused.
As an aside, I now truly think that that one “like” just gives that commenter thumbs up regardless of the content. I lost respect for that one “like” altogether…
To strip abused women and men of power by promoting pacifism is a disservice that deserves condemnation.
This thread has turned into promoting the power of the abuser and degrading the victim by promoting some type of a pacifist response.
Its not about getting to the level of the abuser but being able to defend oneself and take steps to respond to abuse.
As an advocate for victims of violence I distance myself from all things that give the victims a false sense of power and the commenter above does just that.
I appeal to all victims not to take the advise of this commenter to be a pacifist. I empower you to take charge of your life and take all steps necessary to free yourself from this abusive relationship. YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM – YOU HAVE POWER!!!!
“I am totally dismayed that the commenter would promote this idea that pacifism in abusive relationships gives the victim power (the last paragraph of that sentence). I am also dismayed that this comment, given how it treats victims of abuse, would get a “like.””
Sir I was talking about me. Me. What I did. In real life. Calm responses was the best thing I could do. I did not say people shouldn’t defend themselves, nor did I say that they should allow themselves to be revictimized. You are twisting my words deliberately and portraying me as a person I am not. Stop it.
And I said nothing about women in abusive relationships. Female abuser/male victim is a completely different dynamic than male abuser/female victim abuse and I wasn’t speaking of that at all.
I wasn’t advocating you just stay with your abuser, all I said was I don’t thing slurs help the situation. I did the best I could. And I can’t win anyway. If I had ever screamed back at her or (God forbid) hit her back I’d be called a wife-beater or whatever names people want. The way I handled it is judged just as much but I managed to get out of the marriage and things are safe now so I don’t really care. Accuse me of all kinds of things if you want but I did the best I could.
THE HEAVY WEIGHTS OF THIS BLOG NEED TO POST A DISCLAIMER THAT THEY DO NOT CONDONE VICTIMS IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS TO RESPOND PACIFICALLY TO BEING VICTIMIZED – SERIOUSLY!!!!!!
Man, my Friday is shot :(
All right Thomas tell me exactly what the proper responses were in the situation you were never in, and I will apologize for not reacting correctly.
And I never said anything about always reacting passively. I was actually speaking of how slurs can make everything worse in some situations, like I said. I don’t believe people should be revictimized.
Okay Thomas I feel like I have to defend myself a bit here. I was never intending to imply that anyone should either stay in an abusive situation or not take steps to get themselves out and protect themselves. That’s NOT what I am about and the suggestion that I think people should “take it” is just ridiculous. If I thought people should just stay and take it I would probably still be married, eh?
All I was referring to, as I plainly stated several times, is that when you have a female abuser and a male victim the non-aggressive approach might be the best idea to keep the victim safe (and not arrested!) in the moment. That does not imply nor was it intended to imply that he should not take steps to get himself to a safe place at some point or that he should just continue to take abuse. I was talking about slurs, in particular calling the female abusers gendered slurs like the “b” word. In my experience, using that language towards your female abuser is a good way to not only make her more violent, but to make yourself look like the bully/abuser if anyone is listening (our apartment had paper thin walls and my neighbors were always listening in). Abused men get little sympathy in the first place, it’s not good but it’s reality, and most people in my experience will take her side unless you are extremely careful in how you react to the abuse (and even then you’re not likely to get any support, but you’re less likely to be accused of being the aggressor and get arrested when someone calls the cops). When I was a teen I’d swear and talk back to my mother when she was abusive and it always made it much worse, and the once or twice I tried it with my wife it was the same deal. The female abuser will react to that kind of language with more violence in my experience. Does all that make more sense? I thought I was clear before but apparently I didn’t explain it correctly. I would never advocate anyone stay with their abuser, or that victims should just take abuse. I was specifically talking about male victim/female abuser dynamics, where there are some unique issues you have to be careful about for your own protection. Because NO ONE is on your side if you’re the male victim in that situation.
And plus I didn’t want my son to hear his father call his mother gendered slurs, I didn’t want that to be an example of how he should talk to women. And I didn’t want my daughter to think it was okay for a man to call her those type of slurs. So sue me. I have to raise kids with this woman for the rest of my life, burning bridges by calling her names and making things more escalated wasn’t something I wanted to do. And I think it worked out, we’re divorced and I have full custody and we are working on getting along and it’s a lot better for me that I controlled my reactions to her, it makes it easier for us to get along now. You can have your opinions but please don’t imply that I would ever advocate anyone just “take it” and stay in abusive situations, and you might try to see things from my point of view in the rather untenable situation I was in.
Um Thomas no that’s not what Jack nor I am (are?) saying.
We’re not saying abusers have power.
WE’re not saying victims should just roll over and take it.
WE’re not saying victims are powerless.
We *are* saying you can stand up for yourself without using slurs. That’s it. That’s all. It’s possible, it’s our preference, it’s NOT what everyone should do. WE’re just saying that you can express anger and other emotions without name calling.
I can’t see Lrning’s comment any more but thank you, Lrning. It really does seem like DV survivors can’t win. If you have an aggressive response, people will blame you for “encouraging” or “causing” the violence, or even accuse you of being the abuser. If you have a more pacifist response, people will blame you for “allowing” the abuse and call you a wimp, etc. People will forever second guess how the victim chose to react to the abuse, and it gets old. People even do it to CHILD abuse victims which is really unfair. I don’t have the words to explain what it’s like to feel like no matter what, you didn’t do the right thing when you were being abused. It can cause a lot of self-blame and crippling self-doubt.
Thomas, I think it’s okay for me to feel good about how I handled my situation. I could have hit her back (and seriously hurt her, I am much stronger), I could have yelled at her like she did me, I could have called her ugly names and slurs like she did me, I could have put her down constantly like she did me. I could have gone behind her back and told my kids what a loser and how pathetic she was, like she did (and still does on occasion, sadly) to me. But I didn’t except for a few mistakes here and there like calling her a b**** that one time. No matter what, I can look back and acknowledge while I made mistakes, I didn’t let her bring me down to her level and I didn’t respond to her abuse with abuse (though I did end up shutting down and completely ignoring her at times which I am told is a form of abuse, I feel bad about it but I really couldn’t function sometimes).
I managed to keep my cool and remember, when you’re talking a male victim/female abuser, the male victim responding in anger could easily end up with the female abuser dead, men tend to be a lot stronger and letting yourself lose control could end up very bad very quickly. I never let that happen, I never hurt her, and she never got the knock down, drag out fights she wanted because I just refused to let it get to that point. I’m not saying that my responses were good or perfect but they were the very best I could do with limited options and dealing with the emotional problems from very literally never living without someone abusing me. I neutered her threats to get me arrested as the abuser if I ever left her, because I made sure that the neighbors listening in and witnessing the abuse could see that I was not the aggressor and never harmed her. I planned my escape for almost a year, taking pictures of my injuries and getting sympathetic neighbors to agree to testify on my behalf, and trying to save up what little money I was allowed to have. I did protect myself legally and emotionally the best I could, I did GET OUT, and no matter what you say you can’t take that from me. At least I can look back and know that my children have never seen me call their mother gendered slurs, they’ve never seen me be physically violent to their mother, and they know they have one parent who can respond calmly to hard situations because they certainly don’t see that from their mother.
If you’re wondering, if I knew a man being abused by his wife/girlfriend I would never in a million years suggest he just “take it” or not take steps to stop the situation. If he wanted my advice I would not recommend responding to her physically or using slurs or yelling at her (to protect himself for the most part, because NO ONE is going to believe the guy when a woman’s abusing him unless you are extremely careful about how you react). I would recommend he take pictures of any injuries, try to get to a semi-public place where a neighbor or two can witness who is hurting who, make sure that there is no appearance of him being the aggressor (because who is going to believe him if the woman accuses him of being the aggressor? the woman is more likely to be believed). I would also recommend he find a domestic violence non-profit to help him with getting help with custody issues and a place to stay and job help (a lot of them won’t help men even when they pretend they do on their websites, I called several that wouldn’t help me until I finally found one that helped me get a restraining order and file for temp custody). I would NOT recommend he do nothing at all, I would NOT recommend that he “allow” the abuse to continue or that he not protect himself especially if she attempted to use a weapon or something. So, please do not continue accusing me of wanting victims to have no power or to imply that I would want someone to continue to stay in an abusive relationship and continue getting hurt. I want ALL people to be free of abuse, I just acknowledge that sometimes an aggressive response can make things worse for the victim. And sometimes it can make you feel terrible about yourself if you respond with slurs and anger (I STILL feel guilty for calling my wife that name, and I really, really regret all the names I called my mother when I was a teenager, I wish I had been mature enough to respond with some grace, it would have kept me safer and made me a better person). The victim can choose how he wishes to respond to the abuser as long as it’s proportionate and justified force (no punching women in the face or something like that unless she’s got a weapon and that’s the only thing you can do), but men in abusive relationships really do have to be careful because it’s really easy for an abusive woman to use the system against their male victim. It’s not ideal but it is reality.
P.S I’m only talking about male victim/female abusers because obviously I’ve never been a female victim. Male abuser/female victim dynamics are different and since I’ve never personally dealt with it I’m not going to throw my opinions on those situations unless it’s to offer support/protection to someone who needs my help. But with female abusers/male victims I actually have experience and know the dynamics of so I feel comfortable having opinions.
And this conversation got pretty stressful for me Thomas so this is my final comment, unless you have a response that is something other than accusing me of wanting to protect abusers and allow victims to get abused. Please consider what I am saying, you were not in my situation (and I’m glad you weren’t! There’s nothing like having someone half your size beat the crap out of you and be utterly trapped with her!) and while you can have whatever opinions you want, please remember DV victims get judged for our responses to abuse NO MATTER WHAT, so it would be nice if you wouldn’t contribute to it.
Oh and one more thing (I really feel like I have to defend myself here, the accusation that I think abusers should have power is just hurtful and untrue)… my ex has hit her current live-in boyfriend at least one time that I’m aware of and I’ve actually have witnessed her emotionally abusing him in similar ways that she has me. I’ve offered to let him crash at my place at least temporarily and offered him whatever help I can if he wants to leave (he is currently denying that it’s “real” abuse and she’s in anger management so he thinks it will get better, maybe he’s even right). Now, if I can offer HIM help, when he slept with my wife behind my back when I thought we were kinda friends, I’m certainly not the kind of person who would protect abusers or think victims should just take the abuse and not get out of their situations. Please do not accuse me of or imply that I am the kind of person who protects abusers, the only thing I care about more than stopping abuse of all sorts is taking care of my kids.
Number of posts above referred exclusively to a pacifist response to abuse in a domestic violence situation and at the end there was a lot of backtracking.
Those that monitor this thread stand silent on this type of disempowering of victims. This leads me to conclude that those individuals are only interested in patronizing certain commenters rather than a strong objection to pacifism.
No victim has ever survived pacifism in any type of an abusive situation.
I am disappointed in the leadership of this blog for caring more for giving “likes” rather than protecting victims of violence….
Thomas stop ignoring me and actually answer me instead of railing against me in a super passive aggressive way by not using my name.
And there was no backtracking. And a pacifist response helped me out in my situation and no matter what you say you can’t shame me for that.
You are a victim blamer and you bully victims by telling them their responses are wrong and that they can only react in a way personally approve by you.
The last paragraph in the comment above is a breach of:
No swearing or slandering of others.
No deliberate inflammatory comments.
This blog constantly tolerates those two from one commenter. I think I’ve had enough…..
No, no, no, you don’t get to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of wanting domestic abuse to continue and then play the victim. Well, actually you can do that if you please but it’s not a great idea.
And you aren’t fooling anyone by saying “one commenter” or “a certain commenter”, you’re just being passive aggressive.
I’m totally done too.
Thomas no one here is defending abusers. It’s absurd that you would even think that.
Okay I know I said I was done a couple times, but I really feel like everyone is blaming me for not reacting correctly and I think it’s unfair. I don’t understand why I never do the right thing, I think I didnt do too bad.
Thomas, you are looking from the outside in and judging me for not reacting to abuse correctly. In that way I think you’re victim blaming and being a bully. DV victims get blamed no matter what they do. If I had ever hit my wife back or made a habit of calling her gendered slurs, I’m sure that people would be talking about what an abusive jerk I am and how she was the real victim even though she beat on me and people would shrug off the emotional abuse she committed and blame me for not reacting calmly. And I can’t win, because even though I never responded violently (I didn’t even try to stop her, because usually if I just let her hit me or scream at me until she was bored the violence would be over quicker than if I tried to stop her), people still judge me and say that I allowed her to abuse me and that my responses were wrong. It’s just not fair and there’s no way to win. And I think it’s crazy people constantly judge and second-guess me and my reactions and barely say anything about what she did. It seems like victim blaming to me, and I internalized that for years along with internalizing massive amounts of blame from the child abuse I suffered before I was married too. So I really feel like this is victim blaming, focusing on my reactions and constantly second-guessing what I shoulda woulda coulda done, instead of for once maybe giving me some props for getting away from her, getting custody of the kids and protecting them, and managing to do all that without ever hurting her or becoming abisive myself. I feel like I did the best I could with limited options and little help, the cops laughed at me and a couple even threatened me, told me if I ever hit her back they’d throw me in jail. Only one cop ever said anything that could have been construed as being on my side, she was nice. But most of them just judged me like you are doing Thomas.
And I still don’t get what you think I did wrong. Clearly I couldn’t physically defend myself withou either inadvertently hurting her or getting arrested (and I think men in general should be extremely careful defending themselves from female abusers, it can get bad quickly and if she says you hit first, people are likely to believe her and not you). And I don’t get why you think screaming back at her, using gendered slurs, or swearing at her would have helped. Have you ever been married to/dated/had a mother who an abusive woman? Being verbally aggressive toward someone who is hitting you just makes them angrier, and the angrier they get the more they hit you and the worse the emotional abuse gets. You blame me for apologizing for calling her a “b****”, well I had to, I just made her angrier and had to calm her down somehow. And I don’t believe in using that language towards women anyway, I don’t think it’s productive and I don’t want to model that for my children.
And you’re forgetting my kids while you’re blaming me for not reacting correctly. I had to make things as calm as possible so my kids could have a home that was as safe as I could make it, and I tried to make it so they witnessed as little violence and emotional abuse as possible. If that meant sometimes apologizing when it maybe wasn’t warranted, or letting her hit me if it calmed her down quicker, so be it. I had to figure out how to leave without losing the kids to her (and I already had my gender and my criminal record working against me there), which meant I couldn’t just run. I had to stay until I had things set up where I could have a chance at winning custody. I did my best and thankfully she decided not to fight me after she realized I was really never coming back to her, but the fact remains that I was at a huge disadvantage in the custody issue and I had to be extremely careful that there wasn’t even a hint f violence or aggression on my part. My kids being safe is more important to me than me being safe, and I’m NOT sorry that I stayed longer because it meant I could set things up to give me a better chance of getting custody.
And like I said I would always encourage victims to leave and always encourage them to be safe as possible. But being safe sometimes involves a non-aggressive approach initially, ESPECIALLY if you are a man being abused by a woman. Like I said, people are not likely to give men the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being victimized by DV, and many times the abuser will use the system against their victim (male abusers do this too, but female abusers have the advantage here because of “primary aggressor” criteria).
So tell me, Thomas, since you refused to before. What exactly would you have had me do, since you’re great at judging and criticizing my actual actions, surely you must know why I should have done instead? Should I have punched her, pushed her, or otherwise defended myself with physical violence? Should I have raised my voice, called her the “b” word and the “c” word, maybe put her down all the time and tried to scare her by raising my voice? I’m sure that would have benefitted me or any male victim greatly! I’m sure the cops and neighbors would have been really understanding when the guy who outweighs his wife by fifty pounds pushes her around and screams at her, they totally would have believed me when I said she started it. Oh and by the way, after a couple years of hearing and seeing her verbally and physically abuse me and never seeing me react physically or verbally aggressive, my neighbors were eventually completely on my side and one even offered to testify at a custody hearing or even help me put her in jail. I EARNED my neighbors’ support by being careful to not react violently to my ex’s abuse, if I had been aggressive I would not have had their support and it would have made it more difficult to leave if I didn’t have the assurance that no one would be testifying for her. Even my in-laws understood that their daughter was the violent one and that the aggression and violence was on her, not me. My mother-in-law even told me in confidence after I filed for divorce that she believed I should get custody. Now, if I reacted violently or aggressively towards their daughter, do you think I would still have a civil relationship with my in-laws?
I’m not saying I’m perfect or that I reacted wonderfully but I really didnt know what else to do. And I really wish people would stop blaming me or accusin me of wanting men to just “let the abuse continue” or “give power to abusers” when I really just know reality, and the reality is that men being abused need to be careful, because life isn’t fair and people don’t take abuse by women seriously. I would help any guy (or woman, but there are different issues there and a violent response to a male abuser might be the best in some circumstances) who is being abused, but I wouldn’t lie to him and pretend he can react with aggression without making some awful, unfair problems for himself. Thomas you do male victims no favors by pretending that the world is just and fair, and that men can react aggressively to female abusers without risking legal trouble and social ostracization.
And like I said when I was a teenager I used to react very verbally aggressively to my mother when she was abusive. I called her tons of gendered slurs, people would be shocked if they heard how I used to talk. And you know, it never benefited me at all. Calling her the “b” word and “c” word (well, the Spanish equivalents but same thing really) just made her more violent, and when I got big enough that she was actually afraid I would be able to physically defend myself she would wait until my dad got home from work and then he’d punish me for reacting aggressivly to her. Once when I was like twelve I think she hit me in the face so I shoved her against the wall, so she called one of my older sister’s husband who came over and locked me in my room (my dad put a lock on my room when I was a kid that locked from the outside because I snuck out so much), and my dad horribly punished me when he got home from work.
The aggressive response just made things worse for me, I might have been big enough to defend myself from my mom once I became a teenager, but I never had a chance against my dad. I’m sure you’ll blame me for not defending myself properly Thomas but I tried and the aggressive approach just didn’t work for me, I don’t think it’s fair that people constantly tell me I did the wrong thing, I didn’t have many options and no one would help me, Then when I got away from my parents (not quick enough, as I’m sure you’ll point out), I got married young and didn’t even recognize my marriage as abusive, but when I did I certainly knew that reacting aggressively would probably make things worse, and what do you know! The times I reacted verbally aggressively it… Made things worse. What a concept.
And I’m only speaking of me and possibly other guys in an abusive relationship with a woman. If there’s a DV victim (particularly a female victim) who feels like aggression is what’s best to keep them safe then they can do that, but I would caution any male victim that they are taking a pretty big risk by reacting aggressively.
And about gendered slurs in general… It’s pretty common for men abused by women (particularly when the abuse occurs when they are young boys) to end up with a lot of resentment towards women in general. It’s not right, it might be understandable but it should be discouraged. I know when I used that language toward my mother I started getting resentful towards women in general, and started thinking of them as “b”s and “c”s. Now I was very young and I always had a lot of female friends so I got over that resentment pretty quickly, but I knew if I let myself think of and call my wife those kind of names that I would end up generalizing my (valid) frustration with her towards women in general, and that’s not the man I wanted to be, and not the man I want my children to be raised by. So that’s a problem I see with gendered slurs like “b” and “c”, they do assist you in feeling resentful and angry at the entire female gender, and it’s NOT okay to be that kind of guy, just because a few women hurt you doesn’t mean you should be angry at all women.
So gendered slurs are a bad idea in my opinion, though I’m sympathetic to an abused man who used them when he was being abused I think he should be talked to about not letting his anger generalize. I will always regret and not forgive myself for using those words towards my mother often and my wife once, it’s one of my biggest regrets, along with pushing my mom that one time. I really regret that and think I’m kind of a bad guy for it and don’t really blame my mom for not wanting to repair our relationship now.
I really think if you want to judge me and blame me for something Thomas, it should be for that, not for reacting in a non-aggressive manner towards abuse because I think that was the best thing I could do in that situation. But don’t judge me too harshly because I was really young when I talked to my mother like that and I do regret it and I’ve tried to apologize but she won’t call me back.
And I think if people want to criticize and judge how victims in DV or other abusive situations react, they should at least tell the victim what the proper response was. How can people know what they were supposed to do if they just hear “what you did was wrong” but don’t hear what the right response was supposed to be?
Like I said apparently EVERYTHING I’ve ever done in response to abuse was completely wrong, but no one will tell me what I was supposed to do instead of what I did. Like when my ex hit me in the head with my guitar, she did that because I was basically just completely shut down and ignoring her (I even put headphones on because I didn’t want to hear her and the baby scream at me) because I couldn’t handle the stress. Now people tell me that it was wrong and abusive of me to ignore her, but they won’t tell me how I was supposed to be acting in the first place to avoid the violence. So I get that ignoring her was wrong. And I clearly understand that being verbally aggressive, like calling her the “b” word that time, was wrong but if being conciliatory and compliant is also wrong, and ignoring her and avoiding her was wrong, and aggression is wrong… So pretty much every reaction I ever had was wrong and I don’t see any other options. So I really don’t think it’s fair to criticize and tell people that their reactions to being abused are wrong if you’re not even going to tell them what reactions are right. It’s just not fair and I think it keeps people trapped in abusive situations. I think if you feel like you can’t do anything right, especially since the abuser tells you that everything you do is wrong and she abuses you more if you react wrong and make her angrier, then you just end up feeling helpless and end up getting stuck. So that’s why if I’m saying I don’t think an action (like a male victim being aggressive to a female abuser) is helpful for a victim, I try to say what I DO think might be helpful and assist the victim to getting a safe place and be free from abuse.
So I think if people are going to judge and criticize and tell the victim that they’ve disempowered themselves and other victims and such, that they should at least explain what you were supposed to do instead. You can’t just leave people with no options. If aggression, and shutting down, AND being compliant are all wrong then someone explain what you’re supposed to do instead. I seriously never want to date ever again until I know what the magical, non-abusive, empowering reaction to being abused is, because apparently I never did the right thing.