Pro-life vid of day: 6-year-old girl’s parents say she’s a boy
by Kelli
From People.com comes the story of Jeff and Hillary Whittington, who had a little girl named Ryland. But Ryland very soon insisted that she was a little boy:
Around the time Ryland turned 1 in 2008, Jeff and Hillary were informed their daughter was deaf and the family began the process of fitting their little one with a cochlear implant.
It was not long after receiving the implant that Ryland began to be able to speak – and she had something to say.
“As soon as Ryland could speak, she would scream, ‘I’M A BOY,'” reads the text on the video posted on the Whittington family’s YouTube page. “She began to show aversion to anything feminine.”
At first, the family would refer to Ryland as a “tomboy” but it soon became evident to Jeff and Hillary that their child’s proclivity toward activities and clothing more commonly associated with boys was not just “a phase.”
When Ryland began presenting increased amounts of shame because of how she felt, her parents started researching the statistics of attempted suicide rates among transgendered people and were alarmed to find that they were more than 10 times the national average. It was then that the couple decided to fully embrace Ryland’s identity.
“She said, ‘When the family dies, I will cut my hair so I can be a boy,’ ” the seven-minute video says. “Through tears, she asked, ‘Why did God make me this way?'”
Despite the fact that the family knew it would lose a few friends, they sent a letter to those close to them stating that Ryland would now be referred to with male pronouns and was allowed to cut his hair and wear boys’ clothes.
Thoughts?
[youtube]http://youtu.be/yAHCqnux2fk[/youtube]
Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
[HT: Jill; photo via mamamia.com.au]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
That’s the kid’s call later in life. I’m just not certain of the main cause. If this kids wants to do “stereotypically male” activities, I’m all in favor of that, because I HATE gender norms and stereotypes. Ryland doesn’t have to be a boy to do those things. But perhaps Ryland has a stronger reason that that…
“When the family dies, I’ll cut my hair so I can be a boy.”
Yeah, there’s just SO MUCH wrong with this, coming from a child aged six or under.
What six-year-old discusses their family’s death in terms like this? No. Just… no.
And yet the idea that cutting hair causes one to “be a boy” is very much a six-year-old (and younger) idea.
This child sounds, from these comments, greatly disturbed and confused.
Were certain stereotypes being pushed on Ryland? What’s the big deal about her hair? Were they not letting her cut it?
Lots of questions here. I think the parents are confused, too.
I think the child is transgender. I don’t believe it was a choice or anything pushed on her. I believe her torment is as real as that of an adult trying to live the gender he/she is not.
I’m convinced that Angelina and Brad’s daughter Shiloh is also transgender. Chaz Bono has said that he knew from earliest childhood he was psychologically a male, and he remembers wanting to emulate his father in dress and manner.
As an interesting sidenote, in some Native American cultures transgendered people were revered culturally and spiritually as “two-spirits” and they enjoyed great status in the tribe.
In a different culture and time, this child might be far better adjusted and accepted.
If activities, clothes, and haircuts make you a boy, then I guess I am too. My ultra-frill daughter begs me to dress fancy, but it’s just not my thing.
What is wrong with us? Since when is gender determined by which marketing campaigns appeal to us? If I convince my kids that pink is a “boys color” and my son embraces pink, does that mean he’s really a girl (cause the rest of the world knows the truth about that rose-y tinge)?
We need to start giving more thought to the pattern that when people embrace a gender that they weren’t born with, they are typically embracing a caricature – a perfect stereotype. I doubt that many of us “feel” like a “female” or a “male” – we just are and by being ourselves we settle into our own version of femininity or masculinity. When people think there is a single right feeling or behavior that they must adhere to, they’re missing out.
I used to play with Transformers and Hot Wheels and Legos, and loved a lot of “boy toys.” I also had dolls, but I really liked a lot of things that other girls didn’t. To this day, I do not like to wear dresses or high heels. I’ve never felt really comfortable with “frilly” or pink things. I’ve had very, very short haircuts and I’ve let my hair grow long (by the way, there are plenty of men with long hair, in case transgendered six-year-olds aren’t aware of that!). I was born female and I am still female.
My cousin, born a boy, used to love playing with dolls. He also loved to cook. Today he is a husband and father and is still male.
I really do feel for this family and all they’ve been through. But I fear that they may have been led astray by the mentality that everything is fluid. Time will tell whether or not they did the right thing, I suppose. I hope they all live happy, healthy lives. I just don’t see how denying ones biology is healthy.
Laurie and Kel,
You both make excellent points.
My oldest was never a “girly girl” and my son was incredibly sensitive and loved his mama. Yet there has never been any doubts about their gender identities or heterosexuality.
I think transgender is something feared and reviled because it is not understood. Its like mental illness and epilepsy of centuries ago, cultures either viewed it as something divine or something demonic simply because people could not explain or understand it any other way. Just as they did not understand the human brain and its functions(we still don’t!), we do not understand the transgender brain.
As such, in some cultures the transgender was revered as something spiritual or divinely inspired, tolerated in others, and reviled in some.
Kel, I hate high heels too! I like a little height, like an inch or so, because I’m short. I see women in stilettos grimacing in pain as they walk and practically limping. I saw one young woman in high platforms fall off a curb. Men don’t torture themselves like this, why should we?
Anyway I am glad this child’s parents are supportive but does s/he use the boys bathroom? What about when s/he hits puberty and starts menstruating? I for see some difficult times ahead.
Hi phillymiss,
I have heard TG people describe puberty as a time of great trauma for them. Certainly in centuries past hormone treatment and surgery were not available, so I suppose dressing and being as much like the opposite gender as possible was the only way to cope.
I have heard accounts of lady soldiers and pirates passing as men. I have often wondered if they were in fact TG women.
I think this shows that no matter how planned, perfect, and wanted a child is, there is still the unpredictable and unexpected. There was no way to predict the child’s deafness, or the fact she was TG. When we sign on as parents, no ultrasound or genetic test can guarantee us anything.
A couple in California happily welcomed a healthy, beautiful planned and perfect new daughter who they would discover in later months was severely schizophrenic. You can see the family’s story and never ending struggle on You tube. The little girl is named January. Her little brother was born before the parents realized how sick their daughter was and he is now displaying symptoms either of severe autism or schizophrenia.
The parents are absolutely the most remarkable people I have ever read about.
“Its like mental illness”
No, it is a mental illness. And what’s more it’s too soon to know if this little girl even has the mental illness or is just a confused kid with even more confused parents.
The comment “we realized it’s not just a phase” is very telling. Just because tomboy preferences aren’t a phase doesn’t mean your daughter is a boy. Let her cut her hair, dress as she likes and play with what she likes and tell her there’s nothing wrong with being a girl like that (or a boy in an opposite situation). This little girl is a girl, and her parents are buying the lie sold to them by society and will only add to her confusion.
CT,
At one time homosexuality was deemed a mental illness as well. At one time epileptics and the mentally ill were judged to be demonically possessed. We seem a little too quick to judge, condemn, and label what we don’t understand.
I’ve also pointed out that in some cultures TG people, like epileptics and the mentally ill, could also be viewed as divinely inspired. People tried to make sense of what they couldn’t understand. I suspect we do the same with TG people today.
I can only go by what TG people have said, that they have known from earliest childhood they were the “wrong” sex and the emotional trauma they endured being forced into gender roles and trying to live as something they were not. Also, their torment as adults since they never grew out of this “phase”.
I compare it to waking up tomorrow morning with a man’s body and being told I have to live as a man. Or I suggest to some of the men on this blog to consider how they would feel if they suddenly grew a pair of breasts.
If the men on this blog grew breasts, they would still be men. You would not wake up tomorrow with a a man’s body and if you woke up tomorrow and suddenly felt like a man, you would clearly have a mental illness, because you are not, in fact, a man.
It’s not a judgment. It’s an objective reality. The mental feeling is not in line with objective reality. Her parents and society in general are doing these people and all people a disservice by telling them that in order to display typically masculine or feminine behaviors, you have to be of the other gender. Nothing this little girl will ever do will make her a man. Nothing. So we are wrong to entertain her illusions instead of telling her she’s a perfectly fine girl just as she is, including all her “masculine” preferences.
“When the family dies…”
I am concerned about this statement more than the little girl wanting to dress like a boy. Sounds like she has some issues other than just feeling like a boy.
When I was small, I went through a tomboy stage. I have pictures of me when I was 4/5 with no shirt on. I asked my mom why I didn’t have a shirt on and she said I threw big tantrums. I was strong-willed and didn’t think it fair that boys could go topless during the hot weather and I couldn’t. I was quite athletic and climbed trees and always wanted to play ball with my brother and his friends. Many of the girls I knew were not as competitive as I was and didn’t love sports like I did. I’ve always had quite long hair but there was also I time I had it cut short and wore ball caps. I can even remember trying to pee standing up! It doesn’t work very well! I still hate heels and dresses and don’t like much makeup.
My daughter had a classmate in grade school who people whispered about and said was transgender. She dressed and acted like a boy. She played with “boy” toys and played more often with the boys on the playground. Her dad was an extreme alcoholic who was not very involved and her mom didn’t seem to care too much either — they are now divorced. I always thought this little girl had everything that she wanted, but nothing that she needed. My daughter had a birthday party once and she invited all the girls in her class. This girl’s mom called me and asked if she could bring her daughter a little early to the party. I told her this was fine; she brought her daughter six hours early! I think there was a bit of dysfunction going on to say the least.
I agree CT. Let kids get their hair cut or not and pick out some of their own toys and outfits. Let them play with who they want and decorate their room the way they want. Let them be involved in the sports/clubs they want (to an extent). But for goodness sake, don’t cave into calling her a boy when she is not! She needs parents who know how and where to draw the line. To call a child a boy when she is a girl is abusive in my opinion.
Thank goodness Ryland doesn’t feel like she is a bird or a dragon or Dracula or Queen Elizabeth. Of course, then maybe her parents would not be dragging her to speak at diversity events and splashing her all over the internet.
Or maybe they would.
Mary, I think you summed it up here: “the emotional trauma they endured being forced into gender roles”.
It’s not that individual needs to have different sex organs and hormones in order to “be themselves”. They simply need to be able to be themselves in terms of hobbies and interests and personality, which may not match the “gender roles” that are expected of them. Any of us is at risk of emotional trauma if the people around us are not willing to accept our natural bent. “Feeling” like the opposite sex however it not a natural bent – it is an awareness that what one does or what one enjoys doesn’t match what one is “supposed” to do or enjoy. Six year-old girls claim to “feel” like boys when people around them communicate that boys like trucks and have short hair and are loud. Six year-old boys “feel” like girls when people around them communicate that girls like pink and princesses and painted fingernails. When six year-olds start exhibiting “transgender” signs it’s because they are six year-olds trying on life and the people around them communicate that their interests lock them in to a role.
When it mentioned that transgender folk have a ten times greater suicide risk, I thought it was going to say something about the parents trying to help her get in good with her identity and respect herself, but no… sigh… they persued it and enforced it further… makes me wonder what the early years were like, seams like she was sort of being pushed that way by her parents in a weird way already.
Here’s an interesting comment made by Ryland’s dad back in 2011 when he was still referring to his daughter as a ‘she’:
“I asked Ryland who my best friend is…she looked at me proudly and said “ME!” — Hard to argue with that!”
Kids need their parents to be parents, not their friends. If you are married, your spouse should be your best friend and your kids should darn well know it. If your not married, get out a make a best friend. It’s too much pressure on a little one to think they are your beginning and end all in my opinion. Ugh.
An article written by Paul McHugh for the Wall Steet Journal has been a big topic of talk radio for the last week. We’ve heard of the greater percentage of suicides among transgenders, but I didn’t know some 70-80% of young people grew out of having “transgender feelings”.
He says that they found at Johns Hopkins – where they pioneered transgender surgery in the 60s – patient satisfaction did not outweigh the bad results.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
Im no expert and I cant really absorb it. Is she going through a faze or are there other issues? Imho Ive often wondered if TG ppl really are happy. When I was in my 20s Id known some people in their later 40s. Sue was one of the women I knew. TG wasnt talked about then like it is now. Anyway Sue told me her high school friend Jimmy had a sex change and became Crissy. One day I met Crissy who was suffering from severe COPD. I took note that she still had muscular arms and a voice that was masculine. I felt comfortable and just asked her how she felt after her sex change ( it wasnt really called TG back then) Her reply? “Well let me put it this way. I have no sensation in my genitals.” I dont have a boyfriend and although I can have sex I cant feel anything.” I could tell as she puffed on her ciggarette that she was anything but happy. Once your genitals are mutilated there is no going back. But I was told that you had to go through extensive counseling before it was even considered. And because Crissy was the only person Id met who was TG I cant speak for everyone. Maybe some end up happier??
I havent read up on Chaz Bono so IDK if he is happier. Would he admit it if he wasnt? Also I believe Rosanna and David and Patricia Arquette have a brother who was in the process of TGing. To conclude I am with the other posters who are disturbed by Rylands comments about her parents dying. Im puzzled because if her parents are supporting her choice then why should she say that?
CT,
Of course he would still be a man. I did not say I would think and feel like a man I said I would look like one, NOT think and feel like one, that would be the problem.
I’m trying to get across what it must feel like to be transgender, to have the body of one gender and the mindset of another.
I don’t agree with you that this is a conscious choice or decision. Who would choose this? Children have endured abuse, physical and emotional. So have adults. I view this as a condition we just do not understand, so some react with emotion, revulsion and anger.
I am not sure why our pro-life blog is concerned with transgender parenting and politics. I am most concerned about the increased risk of suicide.
This is a problem that is somewhat close to me. I have a young friend who is lost in the culture of sexual confusion. She had two friends who were male-to-female transgendered. One jumped off a tall building. The other was anxiety-ridden and attempted suicide several times. It was exhausting for those who wanted to care for the troubled youths, and the whole band of youths became alienated from each other.
For the most part, they blamed the gender-altering hormone treatments for the psychotic depression. That seemed likely to me, since we know how birth-control doses already mess with women’s minds and bodies in adverse ways. Regular mega-doses of female hormones into a male body and brain ought to trigger a myriad of complications, some severe.
And then there is the never-ending stress of trying to get the world to play along with the pretend gender. I doubt this is a primary cause of distress, but it could sure aggravate the hormone-induced problems.
Im not terribly conerned with transgendering. However since it is the topic we cant get into their heads when we are happy being the gender that we are. Its too complex to understand. People also kill themselves for different reasons. I was reading an article written by a doc. who used to perform sex change ops. He is now writing that this is a very bad idea and often there are many underlying issues.
Of the three post op people I thought of first: 1 dead by suicide (despite the family’s acceptance), one dead of cancer (unnecessary hormone shots have any consequences?), and one working as a prostitute who’s now-adult children are faring badly. Any doctor who prescribes hormones to this family’s child deserves to lose their license.
When I was 6 I wanted to be a horse, but mom didn’t send me to school with a flake of hay and a saddle.
Great article, Hans. I wonder if Ryland’s parents were presented with the statistics by the folks in the diversity groups? I doubt it but I hope they look into this before they make any more decisions regarding their daughter. Calling a beautiful little girl a boy because she feels that way is heartbreaking. My oldest felt that he should be playing video games 16 hours a day when he was small too…..
Del, I think being concerned about those with mental disorders and especially those who are suicidal falls under the prolife spectrum. The more we learn about these issues, the more we are able to help those around us in a positive way.
Look at the big picture: just as we find out more than ever about DNA, embryology, and science, there are an increasing number of people who mentally disconnect themselves from the reality of what their bodies are and how they function. It is all related. There’s another story in the news, about a teenage girl whose famous father is accused of sexually abusing teenage girls of the same age. Is it any wonder this man’s own child would rather be anything BUT a teenage female? Hello McFly!!!
I have a five year old that wants to be Spider Man. This is insane.
Since transgender appears to be a real psychological disorder, our job as healers should be to help the suffering person to live comfortable with the body and gender that exists.
It seems cruel to encourage the sufferer to undergo hormone therapies that cause cancer and psychosis, mutilating surgeries, and a life of pretending to be a body and gender that isn’t real.
Reading the blog comments here about children who wanted to be a horse or Spiderman, I can’t help but wonder what type of struggles they’d have if parents agonized over what to tell the child and decided to say, “Okay, you ARE a horse” or “You ARE Spiderman”, and enabled them to live in a barn or climb a building at age 6 rather than say, “That’s quite an imagination you have.”
“I don’t agree with you that this is a conscious choice or decision. Who would choose this?”
It’s not a conscious choice or decision. It’s a mental illness. It is a belief that is clearly at odds with reality. It is no help to placate a mental illness by pretending that the fiction is reality, or WORSE, to support and advocate physical mutilation to physically manifest the delusion.
There are people with mental illnesses where they think they are ugly or obese when they are not.
People would be up in arms if there was a movement that agreed with the disordered folks and told them: “Yeah, you are ugly!”
The child in this story is a wonderful, talented, beautiful, smart little girl. She should be told that over and over by those near her until she believes it herself. She should not be called a boy just because she wants to be called that anymore than children should be fed cake for lunch every day because that is what they want. Who are the adults here?
I hope she gets real help before any further damage is done.
“Who are the adults here?”
– Exactly Praxedes, well said.
Thanks, Eric. Thank goodness my parents eventually brought the hammer down and made me start wearing a shirt!
I’m glad you’re all trained psychiatrists and neuroscientists and not only know exactly what is going with Transgender people medically and biologically, you also know exactly what they need medically and socially. Pretty cool that it’s all figured out!
Here comes the agenda…
Had I been born in this decade rather than the 60s, I might have been labeled transgender. . .
Gosh, I hate labeling little kids. Let them be little kids.
All sarcasm aside, people who are interested in attempting to understand where transgenderism is possibly coming from should look up the studies done on brain structure, hormone acceptor differences in the brains, hormonal imbalances in utero, etc. It’s fascinating stuff, and still being studied, and is probably more productive than snickering about how kids sometimes pretend that they are dogs and such. Or online diagnosing them with mental disorders when the science is basically in its infancy.
I don’t believe in labeling little kids. I actually think that it’s dangerous to have a six year old labeled with the scientific evidence being so scant.
I do believe in people with the relevant education studying this stuff and finding ways to deal with the causes and effects of transgenderism instead of presuppositions that you know exactly what is going on and insisting that there is one way to deal with the issue.
Deluded, I don’t know the science behind transgenderism. But what I do know is that they shouldn’t be harassed, beaten, raped, killed or mistreated, which often happens. And no, I don’t have an agenda.
“When the family dies, I will cut my hair so I can be a boy.”
That’s a really odd and disturbing thing for a little girl to say. I’ve known some parents that are really attached to their daughter’s long hair and object to her getting it cut even though she is tired of trying to comb through snarls everyday. Did Ryland overhear someone say “she’ll cut her long hair over my dead body”? The parents sent out a letter saying Ryland “was ALLOWED to cut his hair”? Allowed??? Something seems off here.
And anyway, I fail to see how pointing out how none of us, including me, actually have any real proof of how transgenderism arises and the biological basis of such dysphoria comes from, is an “agenda”, anymore than people claiming they know exactly what’s going on with this girl or anyone else with dysphoria should be cured or treated. Transgender people have historically response to being “corrected” about as well as gay or bisexuals have (which is a very low success rate and a lot of pain for the individual who isn’t “right”), so it seems to me that more information, caution, and evidence based approaches would be a good idea. Certainly seems more reasonable than assumptions that anyone knows exactly what these people need and mocking them with stories about your kids role playing as animals or super heroes.
“I actually think that it’s dangerous to have a six year old labeled …”
I agree Jack, that’s why I would never refer to this child as “transgendered”.
Hear, hear Eric.
Interesting point, Lrning. I also saw another interesting comment on Ryland’s dad’s FB:
“What do they teach kids in kindergarten these days???
Ry: Dad…is this movie real life?
Me: Nope…it’s not.
Ry: Okay…so it’s made up. That means it’s fiction.
I’m pretty sure I had no idea what fiction and non-fiction was at age 6!”
Not sure he knows the difference yet… Sounds like there might be a few control issues and power plays at work in this family in my opinion.
Regarding switching up birth gender, I think Hans said it best when he pointed to the stats in the link “patient satisfaction did not outweigh the bad results.” Real people’s lives are at stake here and they shouldn’t be sold any agenda.
DLPL, because of our history of going in circles, I refuse to banter with you on this topic. Hope all is well with you and yours.
Great point, phillymiss.
ALL should be safe from getting harassed, beaten, raped, killed or mistreated.
Yes, people shouldn’t be sold out to any agenda. That also includes the agenda on the opposite of “six year old kid know what they are and should be treated as the gender they indentify”, the opposite has caused just as much damage.
It’s funny though, I know tons of people who chafe at gender roles and only a small percentage to those people I know have actual gender dysphoria. I dont fit into and rather despise the male gender role, but I’ve never thought I was actually a woman even being raised with strict roles. There’s obviously something much more than disliking typical feminine or masculine things going on with some people, and I think it’s a crime to ignore that and pretend it will be all okay as long gone as she can cut her hair and play with trucks.
CT,
We will just have to agree to disagree on this. I do not see it as a mental illness, you do.
Hi DLPL,
You sum it up very well. There definitely is more to it than not liking feminine things. My daughter never did, and is not TG. Also, what is masculine and feminine is culturally defined.
TG and gay adults have reported being brutally punished by parents as children for their inclinations. It changed nothing. These children were who they were, and are.
TGs have been reported throughout history and in every culture. Sorry, I don’t buy that somehow they were “turned” or that they were all mentally ill when they could otherwise function very normally.
Can genius, autism, savants, talent, and personality be simply explained? No one can tell the parents of the schizophrenic child mentioned in my earlier posts as to why their daughter was born schizophrenic. The human brain defies our every effort to fully understand it. Is it possible human sexuality is the same?
That we simply do not understand where sexual identity comes from or how it is formed. That we don’t understand how it can go awry. I just try to imagine myself in a man’s body and this may give me a small idea of what a TG person lives with every day.
Yes people regret changing sexes. People regret doing a lot of things they thought would make them happy or solve their problems. However, there are TG people very happy with their choices.
DLPL,
I’m all for studying the biological causes – who said anything about not studying the causes? If there is a biological cause does that somehow make this not a body dysphoria? Depression and anxiety and body dysmorphic disorder probably have biological causes as well – does that mean they are not mental illnesses? What I’m against is saying that by fiat and mutilation a person can declare to be something they objectively are not while the rest of us should be obliged to play pretend. In this case, in particular, I think what is being done to this child is horrendous. Praxedes said it beautifully so I won’t repeat. But Ryland is and always will be a girl. She will be a girl even if everyone agrees to pretend she is a boy and even if she mutilates herself through surgery. Maybe that is a sad reality, but it is the reality.
Of course I agree w/ Phillymiss that violence is never ever acceptable towards anyone.
Mary,
I will agree to disagree, of course, but all your examples are in fact mental disorders. Maybe what you mean is that you don’t think that this mental disorder needs to be treated or that you disagree with the appropriate way to treat this. I can try to imagine myself in the shoes of a schizophrenic – what it must be like to see and hear things that are not there. But that doesn’t mean the only compassionate response is to pretend that those hallucinations are real.
That’s assuming we find a biological cause, or there even is one. Is there a biological cause for genius, savant, or talent? There’s some indication talent and intelligence are inherited, but how?
BTW, I’m convinced schizophrenia is biological, but I have no clue why that little girl was born schizophrenic, or why people develop it in young adulthood.
I don’t agree anything is being “done” to this child. Ry’s parents aren’t forcing him to dress and act a certain way. Parents often make the mistake of trying to force their children to be what they want them to be, and not just with TG children. Stage mothers come to mind.
CT,
What are the mental disorders?
Certainly people should seek counseling to determine if they are in fact transgender. Surgery should only occur after counseling, living as the opposite sex, and hormone therapy.
Also, this decision should be made by an adult. Isn’t there a rather strict set criteria to be met before surgery is even performed?
I think certain behavior will manifest in childhood and TG and homosexuality may do so. The performer Little Richard was a flamboyant child who liked to dress in his sister’s clothes, despite brutal beatings from his father, which obviously did nothing to change him. I feel that parents forcing children to live as they are not, whether its the parents of TGs or stagemothers, are doing only serious harm to their children.
Schizophrenia is a different matter. Interesting that in some cultures, the schizophrenic was thought to be attuned to the divine. That aside, the treatment of this disorder can be as brutal as the disorder itself, which is why many of its victims don’t stay with their treatment regimen. Its a devastating mental illness that can incapacitate a person, not necessarily the case with TG people who for the most part can function very normally.
If a parent is brutal enough to beat a child who has homosexual tendencies or shows signs of being transgender, maybe it’s the home life that is causing the disorder/mental illness/etc. in the first place.
I dont think anyone is pretending to be an expert. One of my comments was about a doctor who actually performed sex change operations and now says ITS NOT THE ANSWER. In a nutshell some people believe changing their gender will make them happy. Some people have gastric bypass surgery because they believe it will make them happy. I knew of 2 women who had this procedure and gained the weight back. Look at Oprah who has been dieting since the 80s. There is an underlying issue there but being thin doesnt make someone happy. Same concept.
Mary,
There are many mental disorders that don’t completely incapacitate the person (maybe the majority of them). It is not functioning well to believe that your perfectly functioning, healthy body needs to be mutilated in order for you to feel mentally content and at ease. I know you disagree, but your view of reality and mental health is not one I can share.
As for what is being “done” to Ryland – her parents notified friends to treat her like a boy , to refer to her as a boy. They are labeling her as transgender at the age of 6. SIX. They need to tell her that she’s a little girl who is free to be any kind of little girl she wants to be (within bounds of reason). There’s nothing set in stone about being a little girl that will preclude her from doing what she wants to do. And if this little girl still suffers from the delusion that her healthy body is wrong, they need to get her help to become comfortable in the skin she will be living in for the rest of her hopefully long, happy life.
Hi Prax,
Sorry, but I don’t believe brutal home lives determine anyone’s gender or sexual preference.
Hi heather,
People have cosmetic surgery thinking it will make them happy. Some people it does. Others go on a search for eternal youth and beauty. Some people think losing massive amounts of weight will make them happy. Some people it does, others it doesn’t.
Some people are happy with their TG surgery, others are not.
And heck I live in Cleveland. I know cross dressers gay men and women. I worked with a man who took hormones to grow breasts and changed his name to a womans name but he will never TG. Although he is called she his penis still makes him a man. I can call Chaz Bono a man but I remember Chastity as a little girl on Sonny and Cher. I guess its not a Cleveland thing but it sure does seem to run rampant here. Also a suburb of Cleveland hosts the gay Olympics. BTW I have doctor Drew on TV right now and they will be discussing transgendering next segment. And nobody deserves to be abused.
Hi Mary…Ive had some cosmetic surgery as have many of my friends. I was satisfied with my results. However it is not the key to happiness. A few of my friends want more and I believe some are trying to fill a void.
Even an expert in this field may not have the answers. As I look at my comments Im becoming more and more confused.
CT,
One culture’s mental illness is another’s blessing. What even constitutes mental illness cannot be agreed upon by the “experts”.
Also, don’t we alter our bodies all the time? We have plastic surgery, color our hair, exercise, apply makeup, fad diet, abuse our bodies at the gym…all to fit some image that satisfies us. At what point does this become pathological? What I consider an unattractive feature that I want fixed you may view as petty vanity on my part.
What I view as a perfectly healty functioning body the TG person may perceive as a horrendous birth defect.
This is how Ry wants to be treated. They are not demanding she do this. Yes the child is SIX but parents FORCE children younger than that into beauty pageants and onto the stage, much to the detriment of the child.
I know from my own experience as a parent that I couldn’t force my older daughter to do what I thought were feminine things. She remains unchanged. I couldn’t stop my younger daughter from doing so.
TG people claim they knew from earliest childhood but tried to fit into their gender roles, even into adulthood. Some said they found it difficult to do so and were punished, ridiculed, and reviled. Ry may just be more forceful about not doing so.
Hi heather,
My brother told me something interesting about Chaz. He remembered seeing her as a little girl with her parents holding her on their TV show. He said he could just see and sense her discomfort in that dress and her little girl role.
You’re right, plastic surgery can become an obsession, but at what point is it one? Some people just turn into caricatures.
Mary thats interesting. Yes as far as plastic surgery goes many take it way too far. Pam Anderson has had more breast implants put in and removed to the point of insanity. Shes got double Gs now and imo she looked much better when she had removed them the first time and downsized. Shes only about 5’5″ tall and 110 pounds. The double Gs look terrible on a small woman like her.
The dirty little secret of the transgender community is how BADLY post-op people’s lives become. The incidence of both cancer and suicide are astronomical compared to the general population. I don’t know anything about dysmorphia? I wish.
Hi 9ek agreed. I will always remember Crissy and our conversation. Bad plastic surgery can be fixed…sometimes! Genital mutilation cant ever be.
K, there are several studies out there that show transgender people have brain structure much more like the gender they identify with than the sex their body is. If your brain is literally one gender and your body is another, how is it your right to “objectively” tell that person what their gender is? And how do you figure that you choosing what gender that person is causes less harm than that person going with what lessens their dysphoria? That’s what blows my mind about this. Male and female brains have distinct structural differences, and if you plopped my male brain into a female body I’d have massive issues with that, my brain probably wouldn’t be able to adjust to the mismatch. The preliminary research on this is showing that people who identify as the opposite gender have brains that are structurally similar to that gender, not the gender their body is. It blows my mind you all can shrug this off and go “oh well, she’s a girl, I know this because reasons”. The fact is that the preliminary evidence is not supporting your hypothesis and much more needs to be done to investigate this before you should be deciding what transgender people are or not.
No one has issues understanding people have all kinds of genetic issues and birth defects… How in the world is it hard to acknowledge the possibility that some XX people are born with structurally male brains and vice versa?
I don’t know that surgery is necessarily always a solution. For centuries TG people lived without it. That’s why I believe very strict criteria must be met, and was at one time anyway. Maybe now its easier to travel somewhere and get the surgery.
Heather, bad plastic surgery can’t always be fixed. Some people can wind up being very badly mutilated or suffering serious side effects.
Yes Mary…thats why I said sometimes. Idk if you know who actress Tara Reed is but boy did she get a botch job! She looked just beautiful before. She had to have several corrective surgeries but she still doesnt look good. If good looks fixed everything ( The TG issue aside) then former model Chaolette Dawson wouldnt have killed herself. Im sure plenty of men and women adored her. Even so she died from her misery by her own hand.
Haven’t posted in a while, but I have been reading. As always, glad to see the anti-abortion coverage, but I really don’t understand why this topic is even on here. Since it is, I want to thank all those who have tried to throw some light on it.
Possessing no more psychiatric training than anyone else here, I genuinely can’t understand why anyone is up in arms about it. I was a tomboy, and I’m still okay with being a woman, even though I disagree with so many stereotypes of what a woman should be.
If someone has chosen a path contrary to what society dictates, do you really think they would do so at the cost of having to face so much antipathy and even outright hatred? How fun can that be?
I do suspect TG surgery is in the medieval “bloodletting by leeches” phase, but so are the objections against it. I’d love to see a magic bullet solution, which is obviously just wishful thinking. However, when does hostility ever help with solutions to any problem?
Who truly believes the higher suicide rate of those outside society’s norms is incidental? Most importantly, can you come up with a solid reason for why you should have a stake in this?
“At what point does this become pathological? What I consider an unattractive feature that I want fixed you may view as petty vanity on my part. What I view as a perfectly healty functioning body the TG person may perceive as a horrendous birth defect.”
Except functioning sex organs can’t be rationally considered a birth defect. If someone views a functioning limb as a hideous birth defect, do we agree with them and tell them it’s ok to cut it off? Not everything is subjective.
“Yes the child is SIX but parents FORCE children younger than that into beauty pageants and onto the stage, much to the detriment of the child.”
Yes. Both are bad behavior on the part of parents. Ryland’s parents are forcing an adult understanding (and diagnosis) on a little girl – structuring her life in accordance with what could turn out to be something far more passing and less permanent than they believe it to be.
“I know from my own experience as a parent that I couldn’t force my older daughter to do what I thought were feminine things. She remains unchanged. I couldn’t stop my younger daughter from doing so.”
Of course you couldn’t. Why would you want to?
“I know from my own experience as a parent that I couldn’t force my older daughter to do what I thought were feminine things.”
Huge difference between referring to six year olds as the gender that matches their biology and forcing them to do stereotypical roles. Referring to my daughter as “she” is not the same as forcing her to play with Barbie dolls and wear frilly dresses and telling her she should be ashamed of enjoying 4-wheeling and bb-guns.
“Of course you couldn’t. Why would you want to?”
Exactly.
Now if she wanted to continue to go shirtless as she got older, ultimatums need to be given. “You may go to the park as soon as you get a shirt on.” or “You may have your GI Joe doll back as soon as you get dressed.” She should not be called a boy just because that is what she wants anymore than she should be called ugly if that is what she thinks she is. I’ve seen kids hit other kids and will then say, “He told me I could.” Oh, okay just punch away then.
Children should not be ruling the roost nor do I think they really want to. The stronger-willed ones will definitely try though!
“Sorry, but I don’t believe brutal home lives determine anyone’s gender or sexual preference.”
I know it’s not politically correct, but I agree to disagree. In some cases, I think it may make brain changes. (Everyone, please note I said “in some cases”). Trauma can cause all kinds of brain changes. And not just physical trauma. If a child is beat, ignored, isolated, verbally/sexually abused, exposed to violence, has head-games played with them, screamed at and maybe then alternately pampered and put on a pedestal, it will have some kind of affects. Traumas like hurricanes, wars and car accidents can cause post traumatic stress which can affect brain function.
Like the girl I mentioned above; she had everything money could buy but her parents were very aloof. Mom brings her to a birthday party a half day early after asking the host if she could come a little early? That kind of parenting has to do damage to a child in more than one way. What about children who cut themselves? Were they just born that way?
The suicide rate for abused children is higher, btw.
Heather, I have a friend who had her stomach stapled as well. After time, she gained all of the weight back plus some.
“When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings.”
This fact alone should cause any truly loving concerned parents to take a big pause before consulting “experts.”
There is an agenda. And it involves big $$. At the expense of children’s lives.
Sound familiar?
CT, maybe you can explain how having a male brain structurally but female chromosomes and sex characteristics means that “objectively” that person is female.
Okay, so say you have a person with male chromosomes (XY) but they have androgen insensitivity so they develop female primary and secondary sex characteristics (this is uncommon, but fairly common as far as gender variants go). These people 99.99% of the time refer to themselves as women and act as women. Now, since they have XY chromosomes would you tell them “well objectively you’re a male, so I’m going to call you “he” and refuse to acknowledge the gender you identity because you have made chromosomes.” Probably not, I think most of you would be able to look at that very female bodied and identified person and see that they are a woman with a birth defect (though you wouldn’t be able to tell they were XY by looking at them).
So, apply that to someone who has a structurally male brain in a body that’s female. I’m not saying all trans people are like I’m describing, but there’s a good body of scientific evidence emerging that it’s the case for many people with gender dysphoria. I don’t see how it’s right, objective, or scientific to refer to people with this anomaly as their chromosomal gender when it’s pretty complicated.
If someone prides themselves on objectivity and if the pro-life movement is going to crow about how scientific we all are, you at least one the evidence a good look. Gender is simple for 98% of people (male brain in male body and vice versa). But there’s good evidence for a minority of people have a mismatch between their brain structure and other gender characteristics, and what their chromosomes and primary sex characteristics say. Y’all wanna boil this down to simplicity when it’s not. And you want to claim it’s a mental illness when the evidence is not pointing that way.
It’s pretty dark ages, like when gays and bis were treated as mentally ill and given things such as electro shock therapy to attempt to fix the “illness”. More evidence arose that showed sexual orientation is more a biological issue than any type of illness (though I’d wager 80% of the people on this blog still think it’s an illness). To be clear I’m not saying it’s okay to not be straight, I know it’s evil, just saying it’s not a mental illness. Transgender issues have been studied less but so far there is actually more evidence pointing out to a physical mismatch than a mental illness. Y’all can deny it ignoring the evidence all you want, doesn’t change the fact that you’re simplifying a complicated subject and not doing any favors, no more than people who think six year old are ready for transitions are.
Here’s a spot where people can further educate themselves:
http://transgendersurvivor.wordpress.com/
Incredibly scientific and informative.
If anyone is interested into looking into the biological and neuroscientists research about the subject, instead of rain Dom Tumblr blogs linking studies made before I was born that don’t actually study the rains of transsexuals, you can look at this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/
Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230
Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193
Or this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961
There’s more. And they are more recent, and actually involve brain and genetic studies, than psychology studies from 1982 posted on a blog by some dude who talks about “fetishist f***-holes”. (seriously can’t believe you would link something like that Prax).
My last comment is caught up moderation but it links to genetic and brain structure studies that show evidence that people who claim transgenderism may display similar genetics and brain structure to the gender they identify with instead of the gender their chromosomes say they are. I realize people will blow them off, but whatever. Accuse other people of having agendas while you post blogs who talk about “fetishist f***-holes” and link studies from before I was born that didn’t even involve a look at genetics or brain structure.
After further perusing the link I posted, I found brain studies that are referred to all the way up to the year 2011. There may be more from the last few years but I haven’t read the entire site.
Fascinating information put together by someone who has lived the life.
“CT, maybe you can explain how having a male brain structurally but female chromosomes and sex characteristics means that “objectively” that person is female.”
I don’t think there’s such a thing as a “male brain” as some sort of objective characteristic that needs an alternative body. I haven’t read all your links or all the studies, but I’m sure they don’t conclude that everyone who is trangender has these brain changes OR that everyone who has these brain changes is transgender. There is something separate going on with the body dysmorphia in transgender people. What degree of brain changes need to take place in order for a brain to decide that it needs to live in a body with a penis? B/c that’s essentially what you’re talking about. I’ve already said that people should not be put forced into categories based on masculine or feminine behaviors, so all that’s left is that some subset of people have a brain malfunction that tells them that their unambiguously sexed, perfectly functioning body is wrong and not integrated with their brains.
Intersexed or ambiguously sexed people are a separate category.
There are objectively differences in male and female brains. I thought Catholics got that men and women are different,lol. ;) Anyway, my point was that we don’t know of why this exists, but a lot of the newer research indicates that people who have body dysmorphia have brains that resemble those of the opposite sex, even when controlled and compared to men who are castrated or women who have to take testosterone for whatever reason or are post menopausal, or anything that messes up your sex hormones like that. It seems as though gender isn’t solely determined by genitals and chromosomes (which we knew already, from cases like XY androgen insensitive women).
So my question is, why, if a female bodied persons brain is structured like a man’s and has some genetic variances regarding testosterone uptake like a man, why do you ignore those male characteristics in favor of other ones? If someone’s brain is for all intents and purposes male, why do you get to decide that body characteristics are more important in determining someone else’s gender?
And I never said “everyone” Or that the science is definitive or case closed. I’m just saying the evidence points away from mental illness. The science is pretty new but it’s being studied every day.
Do you call androgen insensitive XY people women or men? They have vaginas but XY chromosomes, and their brains are comparable to female controls, not males. Do their chromosomes determine their gender or is it their other characteristics?
You’re not coming at it from a position of learning. You’re coming at it from “this is a mental illness” and ignoring evidence it could be genetic or a birth defect that may not be able to be fixed by medication or therapy. Maybe for some, not for all considering the failure rates of therapy for adult Transgender people.
Oh and you’re presupposing that Trans people are not a form of intersex, if brain structure and genetics are as important in determining someone’s gender as many scientists suspect, I don’t see why trans people who have this anomaly couldn’t be considered intersex or gender ambiguous.
Your brain is your most influential organ, I can’t imagine while y’all continually shrug off and refuse to even consider that an XX person who has a brain that’s structured like a male might not simply be a female. It’s ignorant to me to assume that you know exactly what is going on with the condition (you’re right, and they are wrong). If God allows intersex people to be born I can’t see why people would be opposed to considering that someone’s brain might be male structured even if their body is female, or vice versa.
“I’m just saying the evidence points away from mental illness.”
I think that reflects your poor understanding of mental illness as if mental illness can’t have biological underpinnings or chemical realities. So the science shows that there are some biological explanations – how does that negate it being a mental illness? How does it negate it being a mental illness when other people who have similar brain changes do not feel ….I don’t know the right word – dissociated from their bodies. I absolutely approach it from a position of learning. But I don’t think understanding the chemical/biological components of depression or schizophrenia render them not mental illnesses any more than understanding here does.
Yes there are objective differences in male and female brains, but you’re talking about it as though these brain differences clearly define and delineate male and female, when there are people with various gradients (maybe more at odds than another) who don’t identify as a brain that NEEDS a alternate body.
You’re right – I reject the idea that trans people are intersexed. Words have meaning and. Trans people are non-ambiguously sexed people who have a mental dissociation with their bodies. I have no doubt that that will be the next push.
No, I don’t think it’s clearly delineated as you’re making my opinion out to be. But when MTF transgenders strongly resemble a control group of males with no gender dysphoria (even controlled for hormone therapy and things like that) and they still are far more female structured than male structured, seems to me that is pretty strong evidence for the cause of these dysphorias in at least some trans people.
The reason I don’t see it as a mental illness in these specific cases is because there isn’t anything wrong with having a male or female brain, the issue is that the brain is expecting a male or female body to go along with the brain. That’s not a “mental” illness in the like of bipolar disorder, imo, seems like a physical issue (the brain is structured like a normal brain, it’s just not matched to the correct body. Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, among other mental illnesses, are characterized by abnormal structures and neurotransmitter levels, there doesn’t seem to be evidence this is the case for transgender issues when it comes to the brain structure stuff. Male or female brains aren’t abnormal, what’s abnormal is when the body isn’t matching.
Aren’t you a lawyer? I’m an auto mechanic and I really don’t think either of us have the expertise or education to say definitely or peruse the research sufficiently to have a truly educated opinion on the matter. What upsets me is your a highly intelligent person who has completely rejected, out of hand, multiple hypothesis and a lot of research because you’ve already presupposed your opinion. That’s just wrong to me. I am willing to acknowledge that there are transgenders who grow out of it, some are helped with therapy and no meds or surgery, but I also acknowledge that some AREN’T helped by the methods you advocate for everybody, and I don’t think you or I can say exactly what’s right for them (besides basic human love and compassion, of course).
And you won’t answer what you would call an XY person who is androgen insensitive, and why you would call them whatever it is.
Great article Prax. Just as I and you have stated we both knew women whove had gastric bypass. And the 2 women I knew not only gained the weight back….they packed on more pounds. Losing weight might be a good idea for ppl with health issues and they may feel better looking better in clothing or to their family and friends. However losing weight and being thin isnt the magic cure to happiness. Many people have unresolved issues and turn to food drugs or alcohol for solace. Same could hold true for a TG person. Once they become the gender they want to be they just might find out its not what they wanted at all. Im sure Oprah could have her own personal chef and trainer. Rumors flew that when shed lost all that weight back in the 80s that shed had the gastric bypass surgery. Ive often thought that Oprah was a yo yo dieter because of a past molestation by an uncle and the birth of a stillborn baby at age 14.
And as for Ry here parents need to be her PARENTS at 6 years old. Who is at the helm? They probably need to tell her that if shes still having these feelings as an adult then you may do as you wish. You may dress like a boy but as of right now you are our daughter and you will be addressed as such!
If you must know I would call them female if they have a female body and identify as female even with a chromosomal difference. I already told you that I reject the notion of trans people as ambiguously sexed.
You’re right that neither of us are scientists or doctors, but I’m not rejecting anything. I haven’t rejected any of the science you’ve offered, only the conclusions you’ve drawn from it. You’re right that there’s nothing wrong with having a female brain or a male brain, but there is definitely something wrong with thinking that your body is wrong or wanting to mutilate it into something that it can never be. There is something wrong with the brain that wants to do that.
I’m not following your summary – you say the transgendered males resembled the control group males but were far more female structured. What do you mean they resembled the control group males? Who was the control group – just general guys or men who felt feminine without the body issues?
“I am willing to acknowledge that there are transgenders who grow out of it, some are helped with therapy and no meds or surgery, but I also acknowledge that some AREN’T helped by the methods you advocate for everybody, and I don’t think you or I can say exactly what’s right for them (besides basic human love and compassion, of course).”
Yes, but this would belie the notion of an objectively “male or female” brain that is objectively truly “trapped” in a wrong body. This is pretty much a summary of every mental illness. Some people recover, some people are helped by medicine that you would expect to help given our understanding of the chemical underpinnings. Some are not helped by anything. Where we differ is in that I do not believe it is compassionate to affirm people in the fiction that they are not able to exist within their healthy bodies. For me, there is more to compassion than placating and making someone feel good in the moment.
People who try to be friends with their kids doesnt make sense to me. Im not big on tough love either. I know a guy who has been a life long pot smoker and smokes it with his 18 year old son. Niiiiiiice. What next? Hey son..lets hit this crack pipe together. A responsible parent would never do such a thing. Just like some parents buy alcohol for their minor children so they can throw a party.
And a final note on Ry….this entire thing could flip around by high school when she discovers boys. She could find a boyfriend or even a girlfriend. Food for thought…maybe when she gets older she will realize she likes girls and wont want to TG. As for now Im with Prax on not labeling a 6 year old kid. She has quite a way to go before she is an adult.
Prax, 11:16am
So if children lose their TG feelings, fine. That is why I do not advocate hormonal or surgical treatment of children.
But what about the other 20-30%?
Hi CT, 11:54PM
Concerning normally functioning sexual organs, what about the hermaphrodite or babies and children with ambiguous sex organs?
Efforts in the past to force these children into the gender that most closely matches their genitalia have been catastrophic, often resulting in serious psychological problems and suicide. Its been determined that it is best to let these children decide for themselves as they grow and mature what gender they identify with.
If Ry outgrows these feelings, fine. Assuming they are only “feelings” and not in fact how his brain is wired, for lack of a more scientific word. There may be much more going on in the brain that we don’t understand when it comes to gender identity.
CT and Eric,
The point I am making about my daughter is that I, like Ry’s parents, could not force my child into the gender role that I thought she should be in. She had no inclination toward anything feminine, and nothing I could do would change that. Ry’s parents can’t make Ry identify as, or act female.
A father may not like that his son does not like to do “manly” things and try to force the issue.
We cannot make our children into what we think they should be.
“A father may not like that his son does not like to do “manly” things and try to force the issue.”
Yes, and when that same father calls his son a girl we call that abuse — maybe the father was born that way though, right?
“We cannot make our children into what we think they should be.”
I agree. Except in the rare cases like hermaphrodites, children are born the gender they should be.
My son wanted to drive a car at ten. My daughter wanted cupcakes for breakfast daily. The other son wanted to drink Red Bull and play video games until he passed out. We don’t tattoo their bodies or give them drugs. We wouldn’t call them ugly or fat or hit them even if they wanted us to.
When my oldest son was a teen, he let his hair grow quite long. His father was so emotionally involved in his life but would call me up to tell me to “make that kid get his hair cut.” It bugged the heck out of my ex that his son had long hair. The more his father complained, the longer the hair got. I told my ex to just ignore it and it would probably pass. It did. Years later my son admitted to me that he let his hair get long because he knew it “pi$$ed dad off.” It wasn’t about the hair. Bad attention is better than no attention.
Ry will not outgrow her feelings when everyone around her is enabling her disordered feelings. Let her be involved in what she wants, play with what and who she wants, dress the way she wants but refuse to call a six year old girl a boy for crying out loud. Don’t make her be the mouthpiece for this agenda by putting her all over the internet and in magazines and speaking engagements. This whole thing reeks of abuse and is horrifying in my opinion.
Prax,
Sure, its possible the father was born with a controlling personality. Or he may derive some sick pleasure from abuse.
Or like my father suffer a severe personality disorder.
So what happens with hermaphrodites and children with ambiguous genitalia? What gender should they be and who determines it? Are we acknowledging here that gender oriention may not be as simplistic as having certain genitalia?
I fail to understand your point where your children are concerned. Children defying and POing parents is very normal.
What makes you so certain Ry will outgrow these “feelings” if others don’t reinforce them? You can call her what you want but it will not change her gender orientation. What agenda is she a mouthpiece for?
“If you must know I would call them female if they have a female body and identify as female even with a chromosomal difference. I already told you that I reject the notion of trans people as ambiguously sexed.”
Why? Why would you refer to these people as women? Their chromosomes aren’t female, they have male chromosomes. They have a hormonal issue that allowed them to develop (non-functional, for the most part) female reproductive organs, but they still have male chromosomes. How is that so incredibly different from someone with XY chromosomes but their brain develops female?
And you reject the notion that trans people could be possibly considered intersex or a gender variant of some type regardless of their brain structure or genetics, I don’t really know why you would reject that out of hand though. Do you not think the brain has anything to do with sex? It’s pretty darn important in determining sex (hormone levels, certain structures, etc). So, basically just because, you’ve rejected a hypothesis because you’ve presupposed it’s not possible.
“You’re right that there’s nothing wrong with having a female brain or a male brain, but there is definitely something wrong with thinking that your body is wrong or wanting to mutilate it into something that it can never be. There is something wrong with the brain that wants to do that.”
That’s the thing though. You have decided (for others, I’m assuming that you don’t have gender dysphoria, I apologize if that’s a faulty assumption) that even if a female bodied individual’s brain is, for all intents and purposes male, that it’s wrong for them to change their body to increase their comfort level or relieve their dysphoria. Why? If (and it’s a big if, science improves every day, and someday we might have brain surgeries or all kinds of treatment options besides sexual reassignment surgeries) changing the body to ally with the brain and give the sufferer some relief from dysphoria, I fail to see how that’s wrong or (honestly) any of our business. And I don’t see how it’s wrong to refer to their brain’s sex rather than their body’s sex, if the evidence is piling up and supporting this (it’s not there yet but there’s certainly evidence in that direction). We don’t yet have the technology to change the brain to ally with the sex the body is, hopefully some day, but I don’t see anything wrong with a sex reassignment surgery, as long as it’s heavily regulated and confined to consenting adults.
“I’m not following your summary – you say the transgendered males resembled the control group males but were far more female structured. What do you mean they resembled the control group males? Who was the control group – just general guys or men who felt feminine without the body issues?”
You’re confused because I screwed up writing it out lol. You can look it up on PubMed or whatever, because my comments keep going to moderation when I try to link the studies. I’ll try to explain better. I meant that when they studied the brain structure of those who identify as MTF trans, certain brain structures responsible for sex and anxiety responses, the MTF people have female normal sizes, not male normal sizes. They controlled for factors like hormone therapy and such. They even controlled against men who had to have taken female hormones for medical reasons (but never identified as women). Other studies have repeated these results. MTF people, in the current studies, have brain structures in several ways that resemble females, not males, whether or not they have taken hormones. The research is limited and preliminary, but more is being done so we’ll see. These results have been repeated in a few studies on different brain structures that differ between males and females. MTF brains resemble females, FTM brains resemble males, according to these studies so far.
When it comes to brain function, not structure, again, MTF people regardless of hormone treatment have predominately female brain functions. The research is new, again, and preliminary and conclusions should be cautious if any, but it’s interesting and encouraging that people are looking into this.
And that’s not even getting into the genetic studies, which are showing that FTM transsexuals have issues with a certain testosterone receptor that is critical in forming male primary and secondary sex characteristics. They don’t bind testosterone as well. Similarly, some studies have shown that FTM transgenders have issues with progesterone receptors. These are actual genetic differences.
I’m not a scientist and I’m not saying that all people who have gender dysphoria or claim a gender different than their outward biology would indicate have these issues. In my opinion it’s probably similar to homo and bisexuality in that there are probably different causes, while their might be trends. I do believe that the brain has a lot to do with sexuality and identity, just as much as genitals. And I certainly don’t think it’s my business to go around diagnosing people with mental illnesses over the internet when this subject is not remotely settled.
“Yes, but this would belie the notion of an objectively “male or female” brain that is objectively truly “trapped” in a wrong body. This is pretty much a summary of every mental illness. Some people recover, some people are helped by medicine that you would expect to help given our understanding of the chemical underpinnings. Some are not helped by anything. Where we differ is in that I do not believe it is compassionate to affirm people in the fiction that they are not able to exist within their healthy bodies. For me, there is more to compassion than placating and making someone feel good in the moment.”
Ah, so even if sexual reassignment was the only thing that could possibly help, if everything else to bring the sufferer relief, you’d still be against it because… you think it’s coddling? I am not trying to be rude to you but that’s really how it’s coming across to me, that if all else fails people should still suffer because you dislike the idea of someone modifying their body to fit what their brain is structured? Makes no sense, and honestly seems cruel. I’d much rather have some awesome treatments that fix dysphoria without anyone having to get permanent surgeries they might regret, but that doesn’t exist as of now.
And even if transgender is a mental illness, caused by physical problems like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and such are, that doesn’t mean that sexual reassignment surgery and living as the identified gender is necessarily NOT a treatment. Dude, I made myself extremely ill recently by listening to people and my own delusions (in the medical sense) about how psychiatric meds are against God and sinful. It seems to me the pushback against SRS and letting transgender people live as their identified gender might be along the same lines. I care about people’s heath. If the evidence shows that the best way to help people with gender dysphoria is surgery and/or living as the identified sex, I’m certainly not gonna stick my uneducated nose in that one and tell people they are wrong. I’m not saying that is the best way definitely, I’m not saying that would be good for everyone necessarily, and I’m not saying that technological and scientific improvements might come up with something better. I’m simply not going to presuppose that a treatment is wrong just because.
Well that was a rant and a half, I’m sorry guys. I barely comment anymore and I post novels when I do haha. But really, I can accept that gay and bi people are evil and against God, it took me like three years but I accept it now. But there seems to me to be too much evidence that transgender people have a birth defect or something going on in infancy. I don’t think they are being evil by living the identified gender, I think that God would understand that they have a birth defect and that’s the way that they can deal with it, He made them that way. I really don’t see how it’s inherently wrong. And I really, really want them to stop killing themselves because of dysphoria and being tormented, if SRS and identifying as the opposite sex lessens that I’m all for it.
“Ry will not outgrow her feelings when everyone around her is enabling her disordered feelings.”
Thank you Praxedes for identifying the elephant in the room — letting a six year old dictate the language of adults is enabling.
Hi Eric,
I really don’t think it will be that simplistic.
“I really don’t think it will be that simplistic.”
How do you know?
Prax,
Does anyone know that it is?
All I know is that Ryland is a beautiful child and it’s EXTREMELY disturbing that her family has chosen to bring millions of strangers into their child’s personal struggles. That seems like a form of child abuse to me. Ryland Whittington’s private information has been scattered far and wide for what purpose? If an adult chooses to disclose this information about their past history, that’s one thing. For parents to disclose it for their minor child… No. It’s one thing to share information with family and friends. Quite another to share it with millions of strangers. Ryland is in my prayers.
DLPL,
I would call them women b/c there is nothing about their bodies that enable them to function as men. Their bodies look female, their feelings match that – there is nothing mismatched aside from a chromosome. There is no harm to them to call them women. In the case of trans people, there is no ambiguity about their bodies. They were born into a fully functioning body of one sex.
“Ah, so even if sexual reassignment was the only thing that could possibly help, if everything else to bring the sufferer relief, you’d still be against it because… you think it’s coddling?”
No I’m against it because it is a lie to call a man a woman just because he had surgery (and vice versa) or just b/c he says he feels like a woman. I’m against it for the harm the person is inflicting on themselves but also for the larger harm created by having people walk around pretending to be of the opposite gender and by forcing society (our courts our legal systems our schools etc) to participate in the lie. This is not a “mind your own business” kind of thing. It’s forcing society to agree to the lie. It’s not just lessening the negative feelings of the person by coddling them, which many families do with the mentally ill who are beyond reason. It’s trying to legitimize the delusion.
What’s more is that among those who support the right of people to choose their own gender, there is absolutely ZERO demand for scientific rigor in determining who should get to force society to abide by their feelings.
“I can accept that gay and bi people are evil and against God, it took me like three years but I accept it now. But there seems to me to be too much evidence that transgender people have a birth defect or something going on in infancy. I don’t think they are being evil by living the identified gender, I think that God would understand that they have a birth defect and that’s the way that they can deal with it, He made them that way. I really don’t see how it’s inherently wrong. And I really, really want them to stop killing themselves because of dysphoria and being tormented, if SRS and identifying as the opposite sex lessens that I’m all for it.”
There is so much confusion in this statement. Gay and Bi people are not evil and against God. Homosexual sex is against God’s plan for human sexual expression and human flourishing, but even people who cannot resist the temptation of this sin are not evil. But it’s funny that you should treat these things so differently in your mind b/c I think they are actually quite similar. I believe that there is a biological underpinning for at least some with homosexual attraction. I think you’re looking at the a similar combination of biological and environmental factors in the two. I think they are both a form of disordered thinking. I think to the extent that there are biological underpinnings for both, God of course understands and accounts for the struggle presented by those tendencies (just as he accounts for other people’s inherent struggles). I want to help these people too, but I will not agree that enabling them in anything that subjectively lessens it is good, especially given the societal costs.
Hi Lrning,
While I see your point, I don’t see this as any different than little January’s parents sharing her struggle with schizophrenia with millions as well. Or for that matter Jennifer Morbelli’s information being released to millions. Obviously she couldn’t give permission but did her family?
Information about people is released all the time…for millions to read.
Again you’re acting like the brain has zero to do with gender CT. Just because you can’t look at it without an MRI or something and see “oh, that’s a male brain” or whatever doesn’t mean it’s not very important in gender and development. I don’t think there’s really anything else to argue about in regards to this, you’ve already decided your conclusion and I doubt any amount of scientific research or evidence would change your mind.
And I think it’s interesting you say that those who aren’t automatically opposed to trans are lacking in scientific rigor, when I’m literally the only person on this thread who seems to care one way or another about the science. That strikes me as an unfair statement. You’ve made your conclusion and already say you will not consider any evidence valid that conflicts with it, that’s certainly not scientific rigor.
No, homosexuality and bisexuality are different because there aren’t ten billion Bible verses talking about how trans people ruin everything and are evil and perverse. I forgot that Catholics have the Magisterium or whatever it’s called, so maybe y’all have more rules on trans people maybe, I don’t know. But I think it’s obvious that God hates gay and bi way more than trans people, I read those anti gay verses all the time and I don’t really see anything against trans people (as long as they aren’t also gay or bi I guess). I think it’s different and trans people have a medical problem and I think that God must understand it’s a physical (or even mental, if you insist) disorder and I don’t see why it would be considered a sin. I think that’s different than how God views homo and bisexuals.
“I think it’s obvious that God hates gay and bi way more than trans people, I read those anti gay verses all the time and I don’t really see anything against trans people (as long as they aren’t also gay or bi I guess). I think it’s different and trans people have a medical problem and I think that God must understand it’s a physical (or even mental, if you insist) disorder and I don’t see why it would be considered a sin. I think that’s different than how God views homo and bisexuals.”
It is sad to read this. You are presuming about “God” but don’t forget that the Bible was written by people, and that there is no actual proof that anything more is at work.
You have your beliefs, but what you read in the Bible cannot be proven to be more than the imaginings of other people, no “divine” stuff necessarily involved.
If you assert that “God must understand….” – then I think you are projecting human qualities onto what would be a non-human entity (if we accept the beliefs of some people) and onto what (again) cannot be proven to be more than a figment of imagination.
“I don’t think there’s really anything else to argue about in regards to this, you’ve already decided your conclusion and I doubt any amount of scientific research or evidence would change your mind.”
It’s true that I will never draw your conclusions. However, I think the same is true of you. You would treat all people with transsexual feelings the same regardless of proof of a biological underpinning, right? If science showed that some trans people did not have the brain changes, it wouldn’t change your advocacy of allowing them to legally be treated as the opposite sex so long as they subjectively felt like it helped them.
“And I think it’s interesting you say that those who aren’t automatically opposed to trans are lacking in scientific rigor, when I’m literally the only person on this thread who seems to care one way or another about the science. That strikes me as an unfair statement.”
I meant that the science isn’t really relevant to your advocacy. If there are some people who truly have “male brains” in female bodies (assuming “male brain” is something that can be objectively determined – i.e. no one who identifies as female shows similar brain changes)would you require evidence of these brain changes before allowing legal/surgical sex change? Before requiring people to be allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms and locker rooms? Before claiming anyone who won’t call him “her” is just callous towards these people? I don’t think so, and even if you personally would (and maybe you would b/c you have surprised me in other areas), that is not what is being advocated by those pushing for transsexual “civil rights”.
“I think it’s obvious that God hates gay and bi way more than trans people, I read those anti gay verses all the time and I don’t really see anything against trans people (as long as they aren’t also gay or bi I guess)”
First of all God hates no one. No ONE. Look at all the verses in the bible about how heaven rejoices at the return of even one who was lost. Til the day you die, God is calling you to himself no matter what you do to pull yourself away. There is nothing anyone can ever do to put themselves beyond the reach of God’s forgiveness.
Secondly, my argument is that a man cannot turn himself into a woman (and vice versa). So transsexuals are homosexuals by definition. Surgery changes nothing. It is a man having sex with a man (assuming he’s a “straight” transsexual and don’t even get me started on those that are “gay” transsexuals). It’s not a sin to have transsexual feelings or to feel like the opposite sex. The problem with the surgery is not even primarily its sinfulness (although I do think there is an element of sin to that degree of mutilation. Having homosexual sex is a sin, just as it is for non-transsexual people. But I don’t oppose the choosing your own sex b/c of the sin so much as because of the lie of the whole thing. I know you’ll say I’m ignoring the brain, but I’m not. I think you are giving too much weight to the issue of the brain changes and also, as mentioned above, that the brain changes don’t really matter to the advocacy.
“However, I think the same is true of you. You would treat all people with transsexual feelings the same regardless of proof of a biological underpinning, right? If science showed that some trans people did not have the brain changes, it wouldn’t change your advocacy of allowing them to legally be treated as the opposite sex so long as they subjectively felt like it helped them.”
How can you say this to me? I argued with everyone, you specifically about homo and bisexuality for YEARS and you and all finally fixed my problem with wanting us treated a certain way because the alternative is more painful. I used to think it was okay to be gay or bi. I can change my views if I’m wrong, I just don’t see evidence that I’m wrong yet with the trans. Like I said the science is not conclusive and no one’s shown me that it’s morally wrong to be trans. I can change my views, how can you say I can’t when my views have changed like dramatically. The arguments y’all put up about trans people aren’t convincing to me is all.
Not all trans people are gay or bi, you’re confused on that. There are MTF people attracted to women, that would make them straight in your opinion right? Same for FTM people attracted to men, you’d consider that hetero? Like I said obviously if they are gay or bi they are wrong, but I don’t think being trans or living as the opposite sex is wrong or a sin, as long as they aren’t disobeying any other rules.
I have heard TG people, including Chaz Bono, state they believed they were gay and tried living in gay relationships, only to realize this was not the case.
I also saw a female hermaphrodite who’s genitalia most closely resembles male, but on a much smaller scale. What should her sexual preference be, men or women? BTW, she was a lesbian.
I think because the woman you mentioned has genital ambiguity that the people here would consider her intersex , because when something is abnormal in regards to gender I it’s only the body they consider. I don’t know what sexuality she should have. Probably celibacy but I don’t know, it seems too complicated.
Hi DLPL,
Exactly my point.
Human sexuality can’t always be confined between the lines and it is considerably more complex than genitalia.
I heard one person describe it as a continuum, that’s doesn’t fit any set boundaries. I have to agree.
There are recent studies that show prayer and meditation can change the brain. Positive thinking does wonders for people.
Every time I had a cigarette, I was reinforcing my belief that I would never be able to quit. This was a lie. I was able to quit. I’m glad those who love me didn’t tell me that I was a lifetime smoker and that I should just resign myself to accept that. Every time someone calls Ryland a boy, it reinforces her belief that she is indeed a boy. Which is reinforcing a lie over and over. Which is, I believe, abusive.
I’ve found nothing on the internet about Ryland’s family’s spiritual lives. Have they consulted a pastor or priest? I am praying for Ryland and her family.
Well yeah that’s why it’s good to tell gay and bi people it’s wrong to be like them and make sure that they understand they are shameful, and I guess other people who are evil or doing evil things. Like any other disorder that causes you to be wrong. But in regards to trans if it’s an actual brain and/or genetic problem it may not change, do people suddenly get cured from genetic disorders like Downs, or from brain damage like the vets coming home with TBIs? I guess sometimes that stuff can be fixed but for the most part God chooses not to cure people with those issues. I don’t know why, I wish he would cure everyone, but we have to figure out a way for life to be livable for trans people. I still don’t understand why it would be immoral or wrong for someone to live as the opposite gender, I just don’t see where it’s sinful.
But yeah there should be great caution with kids and they don’t need labels.
This topic has made me think of other issues.
What happens if/when Ryland goes to school and she bumps into teachers/coaches/students/counselors/etc. who refuse to call her a boy? Will her parents shield her and only surround her with people who are willing to do her/their bidding?
“How can you say this to me? I argued with everyone, you specifically about homo and bisexuality for YEARS and you and all finally fixed my problem with wanting us treated a certain way because the alternative is more painful. I used to think it was okay to be gay or bi. I can change my views if I’m wrong, I just don’t see evidence that I’m wrong yet with the trans.”
DLPL, I am very confused and also concerned. I know we debated homosexual behavior but I know I personally always stressed the love for the person. I remember that you had trouble believing there was a distinction and from the way you’re talking it seems like you’ve run with the hate for the sin and ignored the love for the person. If you remember, prior to the huge push for gay marriage and resulting labeling of all opponents as bigots, I told you that I used to not debate people on the subject because I thought it was more important to emphasize the love. That’s how important I think it is for people to recognize their inherent human dignity.
I see that I did say you wouldn’t change your mind, so my apologies. I didn’t mean that (as you can see I said later in my post that that you have often surprised me in the past, so I know you change your mind). What I meant was more in line with what I said in that later paragraph which is namely that I don’t think people would make a distinction or demand testing before they would be willing to consider someone transsexual. I don’t see why you would either if your primary concern was the subjective distress of the person.
As for needing to be convinced that being transsexual is morally wrong, I’m not sure why you think that’s the rubric. Mental illness in and of itself is not morally wrong – it’s no more wrong to be transsexual than it is to be depressed or anxious or schizophrenic. What’s morally wrong is for us as a society to affirm the lie that these people can become the opposite sex. Obviously within any mental illness a person is still responsible for their behavior to the extent of their ability to understand and reasonably be responsible for said behavior, but that’s a separate issue.
I want to respond better to the arguments you’ve presented but I’m having a hard time articulating my objection. I think it’s that I think biological sex is binary and clear except in rare cases of truly intersex people. The reason I, right now, reject including transsexual people within that category is because it can’t be such a clear case of a truly objective male or female brain “trapped” in the wrong body if such a HUGE amount of people outgrow transsexual feelings and without evidence that we don’t see these brain changes in people who do NOT have transsexual feelings. My friend is an orthopedic surgeon and he told me that back problems are really difficult to diagnose because most people, if they were scanned, would show some concerning spinal changes. So when they come in with sudden pain, you can’t be sure the issues you see on the mri weren’t there last week. I don’t know if that makes sense – but I just wonder if you scanned the general public – maybe you see some of these brain changes among lots of people who are not transsexual. There are so many things that make me say that I see no evidence of being able to say that a person has a truly male or female brain.
This is like a novel, and I’m sorry. I don’t know how to accurately put it into words. I know for a fact that your heart is in the right place. I know that your beliefs stem from what you believe to be the most compassionate response to the struggles these people face.
DLPL, I feel very upset if I gave you the impression that I don’t respect you because you’re one of the people I respect most here (despite the fact that we disagree so often). It was not my intention at all to direct any of my criticism of the subject to you personally.
“I know we debated homosexual behavior but I know I personally always stressed the love for the person. I remember that you had trouble believing there was a distinction and from the way you’re talking it seems like you’ve run with the hate for the sin and ignored the love for the person. If you remember, prior to the huge push for gay marriage and resulting labeling of all opponents as bigots, I told you that I used to not debate people on the subject because I thought it was more important to emphasize the love. That’s how important I think it is for people to recognize their inherent human dignity.”
I don’t think people who aren’t heterosexual have any inherent human dignity really, but I don’t think it’s your fault that I think that so do not be concerned. It just doesn’t make any sense to me at all to think that yes God thinks your sexuality is evil and disordered and perverse, whether or not you act on it you are still wrong, and you still aren’t part of God’s plan for sexuality and marriage. It’s not dignified and it’s not right. I just don’t see any way round it and I don’t understand why it’s so easy for everyone else to think that God can hate something that’s a pretty big part of who you are, and what you are is completely opposed to everything he planned, and still think God loves you like other people. Just seems ridiculous to me. And I’ve tried to say and talk to people about maybe that it’s okay just to have the orientation if you don’t act on it but people tell me I’m still wrong and link me reparative therapy stuff, and like I said, it’s obvious God hates it and we’re not part of God’s plan. But really this convo isn’t about gay and bi people and our disgusting issues, it’s about trans people who I think just have a physical (or possibly mental, it’s not like I’ve rejected that out of hand) issue and we just don’t know how to treat it effectively yet. It’s not like the rest of the LGBT acronym, it’s no some sinful thing imo and they deserve compassion.
“What I meant was more in line with what I said in that later paragraph which is namely that I don’t think people would make a distinction or demand testing before they would be willing to consider someone transsexual. I don’t see why you would either if your primary concern was the subjective distress of the person.”
But like I said I think it should be heavily regulated, don’t you think that maybe a brain scan/study/whatever I’m not a scientist could be made part of that. In the future when we have better medicine, technology, gene therapy, surgery, there will be more options, and hopefully SRS can be consigned to those cases where there are no other options and be heavily regulated and given only to adults. I just don’t understand how that would be wrong. As for what we should do for people suffering right now, I don’t really know. I just want them to stop killing themselves. I’m just a terrible Christian but I’d rather lie to them than have them off themselves, if indeed referring to them as their identified gender is lying if you’re right.
“As for needing to be convinced that being transsexual is morally wrong, I’m not sure why you think that’s the rubric. Mental illness in and of itself is not morally wrong – it’s no more wrong to be transsexual than it is to be depressed or anxious or schizophrenic. What’s morally wrong is for us as a society to affirm the lie that these people can become the opposite sex. Obviously within any mental illness a person is still responsible for their behavior to the extent of their ability to understand and reasonably be responsible for said behavior, but that’s a separate issue.”
I don’t know, this all presupposes that having a “male brain” or “female brain” means nothing, really, and I’m not convinced your genital configuration dictates your gender more than your brain does. I’m glad you don’t think that trans people are morally wrong for being trans, that’s good. I just think that many of them have some type of birth defect or something.
“The reason I, right now, reject including transsexual people within that category is because it can’t be such a clear case of a truly objective male or female brain “trapped” in the wrong body if such a HUGE amount of people outgrow transsexual feelings and without evidence that we don’t see these brain changes in people who do NOT have transsexual feelings.”
Well people outgrow all kinds of stuff, and a small percentage don’t. Take depression. It can be situational (you lose your job and have a down period for a few months, but in general you have a working brain), or clinical and chronic, or a combination of both. What is some trans people have those feelings because of a more fleeting issue (bad home life, hormonal imbalance, whatever), or their brain structure abnormality is mild enough their brain can rewire, and that could account for the percentage (which you guys are quoting from ONE study, so I don’t think you can say for certain how many people outgrow their trans tendencies) that outgrow it. But then there could be people analogous to the chronically depressed, where it’s a physical issue that cannot be easily fixed and might require more extreme treatments. I’m having trouble getting my point across, but I don’t think all people suffer from all disorders (physical or mental) equally, there is usually a spectrum. And I think on the severe side of the trans spectrum, there may be enough evidence some day to classify those trans people as intersex or gender variants. Does any of that make any sense?
“I don’t know if that makes sense – but I just wonder if you scanned the general public – maybe you see some of these brain changes among lots of people who are not transsexual. There are so many things that make me say that I see no evidence of being able to say that a person has a truly male or female brain.”
Well, in the brain studies they’ve done so far they use control groups of normally gender identified females and males to establish the baseline of trends in male and female brains. I get that there’s not enough evidence to say either way but I really get the feeling when we figure this out we’ll find the brain is a pretty big determinant in gender (not just the stuff we already know, like hormone releases and such), but how it’s structured and how that effects whether you are a man or a woman. I might be stupid for thinking so but I’ve met a lot of trans people and I really don’t see them as mentally ill, I just don’t. It seems like a birth defect or a childhood development issue for the most part to me. I could be wrong but I’ll be keeping up on the research.
I wasn’t offended at anything CT, I just don’t understand why no one ever notices whether my views change or not. People sometimes just talk at me like I hold the exact same views I did three years ago, I just don’t get it. I try to be clear. And people always tell me I’m impossible and intractable and I really don’t think I am, I just need a lot of evidence or whatever before I believe something.
And I’m sorry if I’m not giving your views proper consideration. I could just be being sinful or whatever like I was about the LGB thing for so long. I am wrong most of the time I think it just takes me longer than most people to understand when I’m wrong, I don’t know if it’s narcissism or stubbornness or what that’s wrong with me, but I’m really trying to work on giving people’s views proper consideration. So I might be completely be off base here I just don’t know how to reconcile what I see in the science with what y’all are saying. I’m sorry.
“whether or not you act on it you are still wrong.”
NO! Absolutely not. You can’t help your feelings only your behavior! I think I know what you’re talking about – the feelings are disordered in that acting on them will never be right, but that doesn’t mean you are disordered. There are aspects of my personality – inclinations and feelings – that will never be part of God’s plan. I haven’t gotten to the point where I don’t feel the feelings, but I try to be obedient and I personally believe that all God asks for is our best effort. I pray every day for help b/c I can’t even be obedient on my own, let alone change my feelings.
I know there are people out there who think that even describing yourself as homosexual is wrong, even if you live chastely but I think that’s crap. Utter crap. And utterly unsupported by the bible.
“I don’t think people who aren’t heterosexual have any inherent human dignity really, but I don’t think it’s your fault that I think that so do not be concerned.”
Of course I’m concerned – and very sad that you feel like that.
Anyway I’m just going to leave it there, agree to disagree on the transsexual issue.
Yeah but I think that sexuality is different because it’s like the most important thing, like it ruins literally everything that God planned for humans. So if you’re not heterosexual, then you’re just wrong overall it seems like. I don’t think it’s something that can be fixed though, so whatever. Anyway, I think the gender thing is different, because I don’t see how it’s inherently wrong to live as the opposite sex. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
“I think that sexuality is different because it’s like the most important thing, like it ruins literally everything that God planned for humans.”
No it doesn’t. Marriage and children are only one way to serve God. Not the only way, not the best way. Just one way. God calls us all to different purposes. There are people called to the single life, to the married life, to a clerical life. Only one of those will involve sex. It’s not the most important thing – that’s just what society wants us to believe. Human intimacy is very important – to connect with our fellow human beings, but that is not the same as sex.
I honestly don’t get what people mean when they talk about intimacy without sex. But whatever. If it was true that sexuality and gender issues weren’t worse than other sins and God doesn’t hate them more I think it wouldn’t get so focused on. It’s always like, top of the list when people discuss evil. I just think it’s unfair trans people get dragged into this when they aren’t evil by being Trans. I don’t think they deserve all this focus and condemnation when I think it’s a physical or even mental issue. I’m rambling again sorry. Not a good day.
I think it’s focused on more because there’s a push to cast as a bigot anyone who dares to call it a sin. I know that got me to speak out on the subject where I previously had not (I had treated it like the other sexual sins – obviously telling my friends not to do it, making my opinion known and leaving it alone). But this is a situation where there’s a push to institutionalize a sin as a good. I do think there are some people who just do dislike gay people as well and use the religion as a cover. That exists too.
Trans people are not evil for their mental illness. It’s not condemnation. But you are seeing the exact same push – telling society that the only reason someone would not accept people choosing their own gender is because they are bigots. There are a lot of reasons that allowing people to choose and reassign their genders is bad for society – none of which have anything to do with sin. I have never seen anyone argue for what you argue for – that is limiting the ability to force people to recognize you as a different sex (not just through surgery but regarding bathrooms/locker rooms etc) to people who meet some objective standard rather than anyone who wants to for any reason no matter how fleeting. I have zero hope that there would be any such limitation given the climate we live in.
“I think it’s focused on more because there’s a push to cast as a bigot anyone who dares to call it a sin. I know that got me to speak out on the subject where I previously had not (I had treated it like the other sexual sins – obviously telling my friends not to do it, making my opinion known and leaving it alone). But this is a situation where there’s a push to institutionalize a sin as a good. I do think there are some people who just do dislike gay people as well and use the religion as a cover. That exists too.”
But my point is that there are a lot of other sins that are way more institutionalized and supported by government policy and even churches. Take divorce, for example, with remarriage. You can’t justify it in the vast majority of cases (infidelity, I think, is the one case you can justify remarriage). But we don’t blame remarried people for causing hurricanes, we aren’t insisting that remarried people cannot be church members if they persist in their sin of being “married” to the second spouse. But it’s the LGBT community that gets most of the attention, the push back, and the slurs, treated as different than other sins, etc. Maybe I’m just too young to remember how people reacted to divorced people years ago, maybe it was similar and people have kinda just given up on that issue. But it still seems like LGBT sins are considered worse and more evil, for a lack of a better description. I don’t know how to explain. Maybe you have to be one of the people who this stuff is directed at to understand how it is coming across. I really don’t think that the “T” part of the acronym deserves all the focus and disproportionate condemnation. I actually don’t like the acronym at all anymore because I think it’s unfair to trans people to be lumped in with LGB people, it’s a different thing.
“I have never seen anyone argue for what you argue for – that is limiting the ability to force people to recognize you as a different sex (not just through surgery but regarding bathrooms/locker rooms etc) to people who meet some objective standard rather than anyone who wants to for any reason no matter how fleeting. I have zero hope that there would be any such limitation given the climate we live in. ”
I would say the majority of trans activists advocate for responsibility in regards to sex change, like the intensive counseling, waiting periods, etc, that are required now. I do believe you’d have several people like me, if the science becomes much more clear, that would advocate the solid science approach (I suspect, though I have no proof, that the percentage of people who are unhappy with their reassignment surgery are people who could have been helped more effectively in other ways, we just don’t have the medicine or tech right now to identify it). I don’t think it’s as entirely hopeless as you’re making it out. I think education would do wonders.
And btw I haven’t been called a bigot, ever, for the last IDK six months to a year that I’ve agreed that homosexuality and bisexuality are wrong. I’ve been called self-loathing and confused, lol, and been told my mental illness or other people are tricking me, but I’ve never been called a bigot or otherwise insulted for it.
“But we don’t blame remarried people for causing hurricanes”
Ok, see that’s a small subset of Christians from my perspective. I know you grew up in a sort of Christian cult, so I don’t know if these people are more prevalent in your life, but I can tell you I have only met someone like this once in my life. I feel like I have more in common with a well meaning atheist than Christians like this.
“we aren’t insisting that remarried people cannot be church members if they persist in their sin of being “married” to the second spouse.”
Actually, for Catholics, unless the first marriage is annulled (and despite popular belief, that’s not something you can just buy – there are standards for annulment), you cannot receive communion because you are committing adultery. The second marriage is not recognized. They are certainly welcome in church as are all of us, but they are in a state of persistent unrepentant sin as well. The true understanding of the inviolability of marriage can lead to some seemingly harsh results among heterosexuals too.
I’m glad you haven’t been called a bigot. I think you’re getting a pass b/c those who would normally call you a bigot feel so sorry that you’ve been duped by the rest of us bigots. Either way – I’m glad you’ve been spared that. I can tell you that I’ve lost friends over nothing more than expressing the belief that it’s a sin and being opposed to gay marriage.
“Ok, see that’s a small subset of Christians from my perspective. I know you grew up in a sort of Christian cult, so I don’t know if these people are more prevalent in your life, but I can tell you I have only met someone like this once in my life. I feel like I have more in common with a well meaning atheist than Christians like this.”
Yeah maybe we’ve been exposed to different sets of Christians. The church I go to now seems okay, I actually haven’t heard them say much of anything on sexuality issue. Of course it’s not like I’d go tell them anything about me, lol, I don’t want to be treated differently though I don’t think they would. Even if it IS a worse sin it gets exhausting to realize you’re like the worst person in the room always, and it’s your sin that is talked about 24/7 and YOU are the sin, it’s not like you can ever escape it. I don’t know how you all don’t see it all around. I really don’t want that for trans people so I can’t just give up trying to get people to realize it’s a mental or physical issue and they aren’t sinful or evil or anything just for being them. It’s EXHAUSTING to be a non-heterosexual Christian, I would go back to agnosticism if I could. I really don’t want that for trans people, I still have hope people can learn that the trans issue doesn’t need to be treated as a sin and they don’t need to feel shame or hate themselves or anything.
“Actually, for Catholics, unless the first marriage is annulled (and despite popular belief, that’s not something you can just buy – there are standards for annulment), you cannot receive communion because you are committing adultery. The second marriage is not recognized. They are certainly welcome in church as are all of us, but they are in a state of persistent unrepentant sin as well. The true understanding of the inviolability of marriage can lead to some seemingly harsh results among heterosexuals too.”
Yeah Catholics are a bit more consistent in sexuality matters it seems. But still, even with millions of divorces and remarriages going on in the US every year, it doesn’t get even a fraction of the outcry that the 5% of the population who are wrong sexually or gender-wise get. It seems like a case of misplaced priorities to me. There aren’t very many non-heterosexuals or trans people, and the trans aren’t really doing anything wrong in the first place! It really doesn’t need to be focused on every ten seconds!
“I’m glad you haven’t been called a bigot. I think you’re getting a pass b/c those who would normally call you a bigot feel so sorry that you’ve been duped by the rest of us bigots. Either way – I’m glad you’ve been spared that. I can tell you that I’ve lost friends over nothing more than expressing the belief that it’s a sin and being opposed to gay marriage.”
I’ve been called a bigot for being pro-life (and for being pro-animal life, amusingly, not sure how that could possibly be bigoted). I prefer that, prefer being called bigoted to people thinking I am incapable of making my own decisions about things and that you all just destroyed my self-esteem enough to go full bigot lol.
I lost friends for not being straight, and for quitting drugs. Never lost a friend due to religious views either way. I’m sorry you did. Seems like they weren’t really friends if they couldn’t handle a difference of opinion.