Woman thinks Down’s baby contaminated her body
by Bethany Kerr
I never am more disgusted than when I read an article like this.
Katherine Mobey, 38, explains in great detail her eugenic reasoning behind her decision to kill her first child, who through no fault of his/her own, was imperfect, having Down’s Syndrome, and exomphalos, which can much of the time be corrected with surgery.
From You Magazine:
Neil and I had been married less than a year when, in 2001, I discovered I was expecting. We were so ecstatic, we immediately went out and bought three more tests – just to be sure. The routine 12-week scan gave us the first sight of our baby and all appeared to be well.
Katherine explains about the day she found that the baby may have Down’s Syndrome:
As I walked on to the street, I was physically sick. It had been such a shattering experience. Driving home, I realized my relationship with my baby had changed.
Every pregnant woman wants the little person growing inside her to be perfect – but my dreams had turned into a fearful vision.
….We didn’t know what its life expectancy would be or what medical treatment it would need, but we did know that we would not be able to cope with a severely disabled child.
Going ahead with the pregnancy wasn’t even up for discussion. Neil stayed strong and made all the necessary arrangements.
She explains how the abortion procedure went:
The first step was to take drugs that block the pregnancy hormones and stop the baby’s heart beating. I was booked to return a couple of days later for the abortion itself.
I couldn’t see what was going on around me, but I was aware of healthy babies being born nearby. A pessary was inserted to bring on contractions and I was moved into a delivery room.
Mum sat on one side of me, knitting, Neil rubbed my feet and I had gas and air and some pethidine to ease the pain. I was told the labour would take up to 16 hours; in the event, it was only six. The midwife had asked me at the outset whether I would want to see the baby< when it was born. My reaction had been, “Oh God, no.”
I know a lot of people name and cuddle their baby.
But I couldn’t do it -hold the dead and deformed being that had been inside me. I never even found out the sex, although I have always thought of it as a girl. In the years since, I have struggled hugely with the way I rejected my baby. I know it was a dreadfully unmotherly thing to do.
Well, no kidding. What was her first clue?

Here comes one of the most disturbing statements (to me) from Katherine’s story:
Afterwards –and I know this will sound bizarre– we were elated. Mum and Neil were saying, ‘Well done,‘ and relief flooded over me. For Mum, it had meant losing a grandchild, but she was totally supportive of our decision — her priority throughout was me.
So far, we have Katherine, her mother, who knits contentedly, her husband rubbing Katherine’s feet, while Katherine’s lies in envy of others with “healthy babies”, all while she is in the process of paying someone to tortuously murder her own baby.
Not only this, but once the deed is done, all of them congratulate themselves on a job “well done”. Sickening!
Here are the emotions that Katherine says she had to deal with after killing her child who was not perfect:
There were … conflicting emotions that I had to deal with.
First, the guilt at having rejected my baby was foremost and overwhelming. Second, I was battling with a massive sense of failure – I am the third of four children, my elder brother and sister each had two healthy children, and my younger sister Pippa had just announced she was pregnant.
….
My third irrational but very real feeling was that my body had been contaminated by having a sickly child in my womb
Of all the despicable things that a mother can say about her own child, this tops them all. The baby “contaminated” her, because he was not “normal”.
Oh but never fear! Katherine is able to find great comfort in the fact that her body was able to “decontaminate” itself from the gruesome ugliness that apparently is a Down’s Syndrome child, when she delivers a “perfect” baby girl later on.

…. I was pushing and pushing to try for another baby, and after eight months, I fell pregnant with our daughter, Honor.
The pregnancy was fine, and tests showed nothing untoward, but that didn’t stop me having panic attacks. My life was consumed by the baby “project”.
When Honor was born, I couldn’t quite believe my ‘contaminated’ body had produced a healthy baby.
….’I no longer feel like a failure. Having my daughter proved to me that my body isn’t contaminated’….
I no longer feel a failure. I’m proud that I have such a lovely family.
Awww, how touching!
But the guilt, I realise now, I will have for ever. I pass Down’s children on the street and think, ‘I killed mine.’
I know they can be wonderfully loving. There is no escaping the reality of what I did, or the way I mentally rejected my baby. The hospital took photos, but I have never seen them, and it feels too late to go back there now.
*Cough* …Mentally rejected? Mentally? *Cough*
Abortion can never be described as an easy option. I still cry as though mine were yesterday.
Why is that? Just a moment ago you were saying how pleased you were with the job “well done!”, and how it was such a moment of relief for you! Why would that make you cry?
And yet I remain certain that, for us, it was the right decision.
What other “right decision” does one cry and obsess about every day and night? Really.



Yeah her attitude toward it is really strange. She says things like how she regrets killing her baby, abortion shouldn’t be seen as killing a baby but ending a pregnancy. I’m disturbed by the fact that she saw the fetus as a baby and still decided to abort. I mean, well how severely handicapped was the child? I mean was it going to be born brain dead? Was it dying?
Also like I said any child has the potential of having something go wrong. What if when their child was seven they get hit by a bus and totally paralyzed? What if when they turn twelve they get diagnosed with anxiety, depression, an eating disorder and OCD (cough *me* cough)? I have a friend whose on meds for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. When you have a child you have to realize no child is perfect and be prepared for anything.
Jess, I agree with you. And this is what I mean when I say that “wanted” is so much different than “welcomed”. (per the Planned Parenthood slogan, “every child a wanted child”)
See, this woman “wanted” a baby, very much (as she says when she said she was “ecstatic” when she saw the positive pregnancy test)…but she wanted one that was perfect “for her”. She wanted a baby who didn’t have any problems, that wouldn’t be a burden to her. She didn’t want to welcome her child as he was…just imagine if her daughter becomes disabled one day, due to an accident or something. Is her mother then going to consider her contaminated and hope for her demise?
And who can imagine how she might respond when her daughter turns out not to be a perfect angel that she most likely desires, but acts like a terrible two when she gets older? Scary!
Jess,
It sounds like it’s getting close to time for your “conversion” story…
When did you turn pro-life?
That reminds me of something someone said on here once about how they were so happy to have a baby who would love them unconditionally forever. They might always love you because you’re their parent but trust me there will be moments that suck.
mk,
I’m not pro-life. Yet. But I don’t see why she would have aborted a child she clearly wanted for a minor disability like down syndrome. I know several people with down syndrome, my cousin for one, who live healthy normal lives. And like I said things can go wrong any time. We just have to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
I just read the full article that you linked to, Bethany, and I’m surprised you didn’t mention that this woman says she needed to see a “psychotherapist” for two years in order to deal with her emotions surrounding the abortion. And then the toll the abortion created on her marriage — her husband leaving a few months after their “perfect baby” was finally born.
And yet half of society continues to insist there there is no such thing as PASS.
Very telling. So much for high-fives and shouts of “well done”!
I think she aborted for the wrong reason, she aborted not because she didn’t want to be pregnant but because she hated her child.
Her husband left after the “perfect” baby was born? I think they just had unreal expectations for the whole marriage from the get go.
Kristi, believe me, I wanted to add it, but this article was already so long I didn’t know if I should add any more. I tried to edit it down as much as possible, but as you can see there was just so much that NEEDED to be touched on in this story.
It really is telling that she is seeing a psychotherapist about this, and that her husband left…I completely agree.
This just drives me insane. (short trip, I know)
My son is severe AD/HD – combined. There are days were he is impossible and uncontrollable. I’ve been around Down’s Children alot and they are not near as bad as my son! All I can do is pray that they never develop a test for AD/HD during pregnancy!
Oh I found this,
“The baby was seriously affected by Down’s as well as the intestinal complications.”
I wonder how bad it was, and when she says she didn’t know how long it would live it made me wonder. I wish it gave more information.
“I’ve been around Down’s Children alot and they are not near as bad as my son! ”
Well I’m sure there are still many wonderful things about your son.
How can she say after going through how guilty she feels about her abortion, how it hurt her marriage, acknowledge that she did infact “kill her baby” and still at the end say it was the “right choice.”
Did they get any counseling at all?? Did anyone help two overwhelmed people understand that DS was not the end of the world??
“Going ahead with the pregnancy wasn’t even up for discussion.”
I wonder how her husband felt about it then, considering it wasn’t up for discussion. No wonder they had problems.
Jess –
“Well I’m sure there are still many wonderful things about your son.”
Ask me tommorrow – this morning was a real doozy!
Kidding! yes, many wonderful things! Too many to list. Which is why I hope they never can test for this disorder. Down’s is not as bad as what everyone makes it out to be….They are wonderful people.
How often is a baby diagnosed with down’s actually born without it? It seems that a lot of peolpe have some kind of story like that. What if she had looked at the picture the hospital took and she saw there was nothing “abnormal” about the baby?
My friend was conceived when her Mom was on the birth control pill. Her doctor told her Mom she would be born with facial hair. She wasn’t. I don’t know if that’s the same thing?
Stories like this one is one of the reasons why I love the Be Not Afraid website, because they give realistic expectations and real experiences for expecting parents from parents of children with disabilities, as well as medical resources. But it doesn’t sound like she aborted out of shock and fear of the unknown, but rather hatred, disgust, and horror that her child wouldn’t have been perfect.
“Going ahead with the pregnancy wasn’t even up for discussion.”
Yeah I don’t think she really considered his feelings.
Jess –
“I wonder how bad it was, and when she says she didn’t know how long it would live it made me wonder. ”
I think the article said the baby had the condition where the abdominal wall is weak for some reason and the intestines and possibly other organs are on the outside of the body. This is repairable with sugery (ranging from minor to major depending on how big the hole is). The babies usually go on to lead normal lives.
I know you guys will probably yell at me for this but… she’s far from perfect herself.
Rosie –
I believe the Downs test is 95% accurate. Which means that 5% of positive results are incorrect.
Jess –
We are all far from perfect! ;-)
It also seems like she wanted the perfect baby to make up for all her shortcomings. You shouldn’t live vicariously through your child. Like for me sure I would like it if my child followed in my footsteps and became a runner but if their passion was molding clay turtles I would wholeheartedly support that also.
http://www.aspencountry.com/assets/product_images/product_lib/37000-37999/37499.jpg
Jess,
What a cute turtle! I like what you said about preparing for the worst, but hoping for the best. Very positive!
This woman must suffer from an anxiety disorder. I wonder if she had been on any medication for that. It’s a shame she had no one in her life who might have counseled her to give the baby up for adoption. As Valerie indicated, the intestinal problems are often fixable. Someone may have been happy to pick up the costs of the surgery. There are people and foundations with money to spare just looking for a way to help someone.
That reminds me of something someone said on here once about how they were so happy to have a baby who would love them unconditionally forever. They might always love you because you’re their parent but trust me there will be moments that suck.
Haha, Oh Jess, how right you are.
I think a lot of those moments fall into 2 categories: Terrible two’s and the teenage years.
Lol…I belong in the former.
teenage years…..they’re a challenge, that’s for sure. I’m loving it, but please remind me there’s an end to the madness.
5 more months until I’m not a teenagers anymore. Then my boyfriend is going to propose to me and I’m going to settle down and get married and get a house and have some kids…
Why isn’t anyone here? Where’s FF? Where’s Bethany?
*cries*
testing
Wow. If she had killed her baby after she was born, calling her deformed and contaminated, it would have been a HATE crime in addition to murder.
I hope her living daughter does not contract an illness or meet with an accident that would contaminate the family with imperfection. We know now how Mother deals with that.
Hi mk!
BTW, what are you giving up for Lent? I made it so close to perfect last night but I had a mental skip and accidently had whip cream.
Milehimama,
Yeah I know right? Like a story I heard about parents who abandoned their disabled son (around seven or eight?) in a hospital so they could go on a vacation.
Jess, you are far too young to marry and have kids. Go out and live your life a bit – see the world and learn what other possibilities there are before you settle down. You are only young once. Now is the time to learn who you are and reach for your dreams! If you are a runner, try running a marathon in another city, or try a triathlon!
This isn’t a case of “here, take my advice, I am not using it.” At 39 I am starting with kids a bit later than I had hoped (I was widowed a few years back, and it took a while to get going again), but in my twenties I moved to another city, made a life for myself, traveled a bit, found a career, and grew up a lot. When I look at who I was back then vs. who I was in my thirties, I shudder at the thought of having kids back then. I was a wreck, and would not have been a very good parent. Today I am far more responsible and self-aware. I don’t blame others for the results of my own actions. I am more confident and less needy, and thus more able to love unconditionally.
Whatever you do, best wishes in your unfolding life!
This article made me so sad and sick. Jess mentioned she has been around people with Down Syndrome for most of her life. Me too. I am wondering what people who have children with DS would think if they read this letter? Horrified and angry I would imagine. I have always wanted a child with Down Syndrome. Maybe adoption someday?? :) I am so grateful for my perfectly imperfect children!!!
*sigh*….don’t complain, Jess…cherish those last five months. I turn 20 tomorrow. *sadness*
I DON’T WANT TO BE 20. I WANT TO BE A TEENAGER FOREVER!!! :(
“I have always wanted a child with Down Syndrome.”
Carla, I don’t understand. (I don’t want to jump all over you if I’m just misunderstanding your point)
Please explain if you could.
Lyssie, don’t worry. The best is yet to come. Teenage years are okay, but the 20s, 30s, and 40s are even better. You never could have convinced me of that at 20, but it’s true. Maybe when I hit 50 I’ll even have something positive to say about that, but I doubt it….
Ray,
Wishful thinking on my part. My boyfriend said he wouldn’t even think of marrying me till I turn 26.
Carla,
I just hate the way she talks about it like the fetus is some horrible person who was concieved and developed down syndrome purely to spite her and her “perfect dream”. Maybe she should focus a little more on improving herself first.
Lyssie,
OMG 1 year and a day till 21! Oh well 50 is the new 30 so you’re… um… 10?
Maybe Carla means she wishes she could give a child with Down Syndrome a good home?
Hi Hal,
I love children. All children. I do really want to adopt. A child who is African American, a child with Down Syndrome, a child with physical challenges. (Maybe I should be talking to my husband about this? haha) Don’t know that I can explain it really.
What are your thoughts?
Carla, I know you weren’t talking to me but I think it’s wonderful and it all works out.
I should never had read the entire article. My blood pressure is now raising just thinking of all the lying she is doing to justify her actions.
She says in the article:
“The baby was seriously affected by Down’s as well as the intestinal complications. ”
“We didn’t know what its life expectancy would be or what medical treatment it would need, but we did know that we would not be able to cope with a severely disabled child. ”
Guess what? I checked and double checked and then call my sister who is an RN at a Children’s Hospital to triple check.
No testing can tell you the severity of Downs Syndrome! She keeps saying “severely” disabled and that is BS. There is no way she could have known severity.
Also, the intestinal problems…again…there is no way to no severity until the baby is born. In all cases surgery can be performed and there will be no severe disability.
This “woman” needs help. The entire article is “me me me” attitude. She didn’t even notice that her husband was hurting too? What kind of wife is that? She got pregnant again because she was mentally doing a “baby project”? ugg…..
Jess,
Television. Which isn’t too hard on me, but the whole family gives it up, which means I become the little ones “entertainment”…
We do this because the point of lent is to work on the parts of your life that you are living up to…like spending more “fun” time with the kids.
So it’s puzzles, and books and games…they actually look forward to it.
I love lent. There are so many good books out there, that bring me closer to Him, and everything just sort of slows down. Very introspective.
I adore Good Friday.
What other “right decision” does one cry and obsess about every day and night? Really.
The decision to have a severely disabled baby. Those parents don’t exactly have it easy, either.
Parents of disabled children go through grief. It is a process. If this couple would have continued the pregnancy and learned to love the baby they made they would have reached the final stage of grief. Acceptance.
Jess10:24 AM,
Why isn’t anyone here? Where’s FF? Where’s Bethany?
How about the rest of us??? (just kidding)
Carla —
If this couple would have continued the pregnancy and learned to love the baby they made they would have reached the final stage of grief. Acceptance.
If? This woman doesn’t seem to be crippled by grief. She had another kid and has moved on with her life. Occasional crying over sad memories is not abnormal.
Lyssie 10:45 AM,
*sigh*….don’t complain, Jess…cherish those last five months. I turn 20 tomorrow. *sadness*
I DON’T WANT TO BE 20. I WANT TO BE A TEENAGER FOREVER!!! :(
Happy Birthday! (tomorrow) The 20’s are hard if you feel like you have to have everything figured out by then. You don’t – so enjoy, and stop and smell the roses!
But the guilt I realise now, I will have forever. I pass Down’s children on the street and think,”I killed mine.”
She doesn’t exactly seem at peace with her “choice.”
As a special ed teacher I got to know a lot of parents. The ones I loved to work with loved and accepted their children. Not the children they wished they could have had, the ones they had. Other parents were struggling with denial and anger and often wanted me to “fix” their child.
Once again, we read a story about a woman who aborted due to imperfection….was elated when it was dead, but now regrets it, despite it being a “right decision”.
Baloney !
No wonder her marriage is over and she’s messed up in the head.
How stupid for her to think that Down’s Syndrome would contaminate her body. This is nothing but a lame excuse from someone who is selfish and very ill-informed, and now wants sympathy for her selfishness and lack of compassion.
The “normal baby” she had later, doesn’t replace the “defective one” and never will. Interesting that she chose to name the “good baby”, “Honor”…..was the DS baby a “Dis-Honor” ??? Evidently.
This “disposability” of imperfect babies makes me sick…as well as the people who do the “disposing”.
People who want perfect children and won’t settle for anything less, have no right to be parents…and if they want something to love them unconditionally, they should get a DOG.
How shallow and self-absorbed can some people get?
She doesn’t exactly seem at peace with her “choice.”
“And yet I remain certain that, for us, it was the right decision.”
As a special ed teacher I got to know a lot of parents. The ones I loved to work with loved and accepted their children. Not the children they wished they could have had, the ones they had. Other parents were struggling with denial and anger and often wanted me to “fix” their child.
Then it’s a good thing that this woman had an abortion, because she was clearly repulsed by the idea of having a disabled child.
mk,
I know that’s why I wanted to go vegan for Lent so maybe people would think more about what they eat and hopefully learn more about animal cruelty in the meat industry. Please think about it and visit peta.org. KThxbai!
If? This woman doesn’t seem to be crippled by grief. She had another kid and has moved on with her life. Occasional crying over sad memories is not abnormal.
Posted by: reality at February 12, 2008 11:24 AM
Doesn’t seem crippled by grief? Two years in psycho therapy doesn’t happen with occasional crying over sad memories. Reality, get real and don’t try to minimalize the fall out this woman felt. She obviously carries great guilt and remorse for what she did. She knows it was wrong.
We all know it’s wrong. It’s called legalized murder. She is no better than a Nazi who picks and chooses who lives and who dies.
Jess…
I got married before I was twenty. I got married because my boyfriend (now husband) wanted to move to a different state, and wanted me to come with him. I didn’t want children when we got married…
I’ll be 30 next month, been married for almost 11 years, and couldn’t be happier!
God knew what I needed even when I didn’t.
Wonder if she will be repulsed when Honor throws up in her hand, has the runs for days or slaps Mommy in the face…
Reality –
There are three types of Eugenics:
The government mandates only the perfect reproduce or be born.
Promotional voluntary eugenics is a type that is voluntary, not mandated, but is encouraged by society to have only perfect children.
Private Eugenics is practiced voluntarily by individuals who want to only have perfect children.
How does it feel knowing that you are supporting Eugenics?
Honor will never make up for the child she killed and she knows it.
The real tragedy is that most people are not aware of the research of Dixie Lawrence, the adoptive mother of a Down child. In a nutshell, Dixie has done extensive research and there is every indication that Down Syndrome is the result of a metabolic disorder and that treatment with certain nutitional supplements, preferably started early, but can help at any age, can alleviate symptoms and retardation, all of which result from this metabolic disorder. Dixie has shown these children are not born retarded, they become retarded because of the metabolic disorder. I’ve been disappointed by parents who have let themselves be talked out of looking into this alternative by their doctors, who tend to view the Down child as hopeless, or people who seem to think nothing they have never heard of is worth investigating. One parent of a Down child even asked me why HE had never heard of this. Well, maybe you’re not looking in the right places and what’s the harm of getting the info and drawing your own conclusions? If it was my child I would in a minute.
For more information and access to this specially formulated nutritional supplement you can call:
International Nutrition at 800-899-3413
Owner Rob Pugaczewski, who’s daughter has Down syndrome, is a wealth of information or,
http://www.nutrivene.com
Wow Mary that is really amazing thanks so much for sharing.
Jess,
“5 more months until I’m not a teenagers anymore. Then my boyfriend is going to propose to me and I’m going to settle down and get married and get a house and have some kids…”
That sounds wonderful. I wish I had gotten married younger and started having kids younger. My sister in-law wasn’t allowed to legally drink at her wedding but she doesn’t have the stress of having to have kids in a hurry because she is getting too old.
Jess,
You’re very welcome. It just frustrates and saddens me when people will not look into this for their own children. What would it hurt? Like I said, if it were my child it would take me all of a split second to investigate this and try the supplements.
I’ve learned from my own experience that we must for the most part do our own research and not blindly follow what the “experts” tell us.
Sandy —
Doesn’t seem crippled by grief? Two years in psycho therapy doesn’t happen with occasional crying over sad memories.
“King’s College Hospital referred me to a psychotherapist. I saw her on and off for two years, and without her I don’t think I would be where I am today.”
This doesn’t sound like someone who is crippled by grief. This sounds like someone who saw a therapist on and off for a couple years, and now feels much better. Get real and stop exaggerating this woman’s words.
Great post Bethany!
We use supplements to treat one of my children’s conditions, and most people think we’re nuts even though they can see that it is working, he has almost disqualified himself for special education, and the other meds from the doctors have such bad side effects I had to sign a waiver.
“Placebo effects” don’t last two years.
Valerie —
There are three types of Eugenics:
Nope, you have a horrible misunderstanding of the word. Eugenics is selective breeding to improve a species’ hereditary traits.
Down syndrome is not hereditary. No matter how many people abort their Down Syndrome pregnancies, Down Syndrome will still exist, because Down Syndrome is due to a genetic mutation.
People choosing not to have Down Syndrome babies has absolutely nothing to do with eugenics. They aren’t improving anything, they are just avoiding a heavy burden that they do not want. Anyone who wants to have a baby with Down Syndrome is free to do so. More than 5,000 babies per year are born with Down Syndrome.
Milehimama,
I’m very happy for your success in treating your child. That’s why I’m so adamant about doing your own research and ignoring “experts”.
Jenny McCarthy, a celeb with an autistic son went against the “experts” and put her son on a dairy and gluten free diet. She is adamant this has cured her son. Blood tests showed he did indeed have an intolerance to these foods.
Newborn children are tested for phenylketonuria, a rare(unless its your child) metabolic disorder that if undetected can result in severe mental retardation. Food with phenylalanine must be avoided and if it is, the child should develop normally. I wonder if this could be the situation with Down Syndrome as well.
What about the fact that her body was defiled by having a MURDER take place in her womb?!
Her conflicting feelings are probably just beginning…
Do you treat, care for, and help a sick or disabled person, or do you kill him? Do you measure the value of a person
Jess,
Do you have to be 20 to get married where you live?
There are several very disturbing aspects to this story:
1. Katherine’s bizarre attitude that conceiving a baby with Down’s Syndrome is a failure and that she felt “contaminated” somehow.
2. The fact that “going ahead with the pregnancy wasn’t even up for discussion” indicating that it’s very possible her husband had no say whatever in the fate of his child. Maybe he thought this through to other aspects of their life – what if HE ended up on life support – maybe Katherine just wouldn’t be bothered coping with a disabled husband.
3. Her decision based on an incredible lack of evidence, by her own admission: “We didn’t know what it’s life expectancy would be or what medical treatment it would need…”
Well, who the hell knows this about any of us? Do I know what my life expectancy will be or what illnesses will befall me?
4. I think even her husband was appalled at her lack of compassion – when their child was simply wrapped up and taken away like a piece of garbage.
As a sidebar here, what options were given to these parents by the medical profession? Were they able to meet with parents of Down’s Syndrome children to see the reality of life with such a child? Were they informed about the variations in severity of this syndrome? If not, how can they feel that they made the “right decision”?
This abortion wasn’t made for reasons of eugenics. This baby died because his/her parents were incredibly selfish and self-centered. It’s my hope that Katherine spends the remainder of her days wondering about the child that would have been and comes to face the reality of what she did.
And, Honor is an abortion survivor. I pity her.
Nope, you have a horrible misunderstanding of the word. Eugenics is selective breeding to improve a species’ hereditary traits.
Down syndrome is not hereditary. No matter how many people abort their Down Syndrome pregnancies, Down Syndrome will still exist, because Down Syndrome is due to a genetic mutation.
People choosing not to have Down Syndrome babies has absolutely nothing to do with eugenics. They aren’t improving anything, they are just avoiding a heavy burden that they do not want. Anyone who wants to have a baby with Down Syndrome is free to do so. More than 5,000 babies per year are born with Down Syndrome.
Posted by: reality at February 12, 2008 1:24 PM
I think the point is that the original meaning of eugenics is as you state. However, usage determines correctness. If everyone agrees that a term refers to a particular idea, then it does. Language is systematic, arbitrary, symbolic and CONVENTIONAL.
Semantic arguments over choice of terminology are spurious. The point is that certain people are eliminated based on imperfections and these situations can be categorized. She gives three categories of such and explains it.
So much for horrible misunderstandings. Used to be the word ‘choice’ meant to select something. Now it means legally killing babies. People use terms to mean what they want.
I agree with you hippie. And there’s no doubt that this couple wanted a “perfect” baby. Wanting this perfection is a form of eugenics – perfect people with (or without) specific attributes.
I am speechless. This woman has no idea the gift she was given and then destroyed. I had a difficult time reading this post, and I have a hard time writing about it. All I can say is my daughter w/ds is the one of the greatest blessing in my life….Truly, truly, truly. She IS perfect! I pity this woman.
Pro-choicers, THIS is choice….the annilhation of individuals with Down syndrome.
Thank you Ellie!! You are blessed indeed!!
Jess, you are far too young to marry and have kids. Go out and live your life a bit – see the world and learn what other possibilities there are before you settle down. You are only young once. Now is the time to learn who you are and reach for your dreams! If you are a runner, try running a marathon in another city, or try a triathlon!
Ray, you crack me up..why can’t being a mother and having a family be a dream someone should reach for? I’ve learned a great deal about who I am from being a parent. If knowing she wants to “settle down” is good enough for her, who are you to tell her she’s too young?
Plus, I think Jess would have some pretty adorable kids…they would each get their own hamster too I bet.
Ellie,
You rock..your daughter is lucky to have you!
You are only young once – why waste it sowing wild oats with people you’ll never see again when you’re old? Better to spend it in a quality way with people who love you and aren’t just “entertainment” until you’re ready to settle down.
Youthful indiscretions lead to middle aged regret.
Youthful indiscretions lead to middle aged regret.
Haha, they sure do.
How middle aged are you, Elizabeth? :)
Lol, Carla, are we talking physically or mentally?
I just don’t understand why people like Katherine feel they have to tell the world, be it about aborting a Down child, “selective” aborting of a multiple pregnancy, or their use of PBA when their amniotic sac ruptures prematurely.
Is this some way of looking to others to “understand” and to “justify” themselves. Is it like going to the confessional? Why do they think people even want to hear the details?
Elizabeth,
We are talking numbers here. Numbers.
Numbers, shnumbers, Carla…I’m not really good at math anyway.
You are too funny, Elizabeth. Let me rephrase.
How old are you?
Ellie,
You may be interested in my post of 12:18PM today.
I’m 22.
OMS. I am 20 years older than you!! Although I feel about 28 most of the time. :)
*sigh*
I am DEFINITELY not ready to settle down and start a family. The very thought, with all of the other aspirations I have…is kind of ludicrous. I have to be honest, my life-long dream has never included children. I am not AGAINST THEM…I just remember from little on up that they were never included in my desires for my future. Subconsciously, I am pretty sure I grew up wanting something other than marriage and motherhood…I’m not ruling them out, but they’re definitely on the back burner in comparison to my education and career.
That’s good, Lyssie, but I don’t see the need for anyone to look down on someone who wants to have kids and a family as their dream.
Carla, I feel somewhat older than I actually am to be honest.
Hippie –
Thank you! Well said.
I would also like to point something out. “Pure” eugenics is about heriditary “cleansing” however negative eugenics is about eliminiating the “unfit”.
There are some medical dictionaries that now include the phrase “Eugenic Abortion” or “Abortion Eugenic” as seen here:
http://www.online-medical-dictionary.org/omd.asp?q=Eugenic+Abortion
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Abortion_eugenic
cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?abortion,+eugenic
reference.md/files/D000/mD000025.html
medical.webends.com/kw/Abortion,%20Eugenic
I think you get it now, right?
I’m so annoyed..WHY does it have to be snowing like mad EVERY day I have class? grrrrr….
Elizabeth, I fully agree. If having kids at a younger age is what someone wants to do, I say go for it. It’s just sometimes on this site, I feel that women who chose NOT to be mothers in lieu of career dreams are looked down upon as “freaks” or not “real” women. Honestly, having dreams and goals outside of marriage and motherhood does NOT an un-woman make. I have no interest in pushing the notions of career or pregnancy on any woman, it’s her goals that matter the most…whether they ARE pregnancy, motherhood, career, or any of the combination. It should be her decision.
Hi Lyssie,
I do not think you a freak if you do not become a mother. I just have never done anything in my life that has equaled having and raising children. :)
Carla, I agree.
It’s funny you feel that way, Lyssie, because I get the opposite reaction. “YOU stay HOME with your KIDS?” Then they start using small words and stop talking about politics.
I thought feminism was about having the ability to choose what you wanted to with your life, not a requirement to have a career outside the home.
I guess when it comes to life paths, you can’t win for losing…
MIM,
True feminism is about the ability to choose what career path you take. I’m all for stay at home moms. From snobby intellectuals it may seem trivial but I don’t.
Mary, hippie,
I’m sorry to stir things up but I’m not getting married that I know of, I was saying it in kind of a joking, “look I’m going to be 20 and have to worry about my biological clock.” My boyfriend said he’s not going to consider marrying me till I’m 26.
Although he’s traditional in the way he wouldn’t want us to live together before we get married or have a kid out of wedlock so… On that note yes, my children will have their own hamsters.
Lyssie, 4:16,
It’s just sometimes on this site, I feel that women who chose NOT to be mothers in lieu of career dreams are looked down upon as “freaks” or not “real” women.
“On this site”? I think most of the women here think motherhood is a wonderful vocation. You can’t please everyone, but that’s life.
I love hearing what you “young’ns” are thinking in terms of marriage and career. (I sound so old.)If you grew up in the 1970’s like I did, you were considered “freaky” if you weren’t marching on Washington, burning your bra, shouting “FREE LOVE! and “ERA! ERA”!! lol!
The feminist never burned their bras.
Plus I know what kinda father my boyfriend would be, he said he’s bringing Smoothie over to meet me and he wants to know if I’ll clean the cage. He had his cousin Jill clean the cage the last time. He hasn’t cleaned it yet I don’t think. Hrm, “Jess the baby smells clean it please!”
Hi Lyssie,
I do not think you a freak if you do not become a mother. I just have never done anything in my life that has equaled having and raising children. :)
Posted by: Carla at February 12, 2008 4:22 PM
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Have you any plans for when the raising is done? My kids left home within two weeks of each other. I was completely lost for quite some time.
Gosh Sally,
You mean they really do grow up and leave? I already have a hard time thinking of it.
I really don’t know what I want to be when I grow up! Back to teaching? EMT? Definitely volunteering.
Hey, we are having a real conversation! You are a feisty one. I like feisty. :)
Gosh Sally,
You mean they really do grow up and leave? I already have a hard time thinking of it.
I really don’t know what I want to be when I grow up! Back to teaching? EMT? Definitely volunteering.
Hey, we are having a real conversation! You are a feisty one. I like feisty. :)
Posted by: Carla at February 12, 2008 8:10 PM
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LOL! I’ve come a long long way from: Little Miss, wouldn’t say shit if she had a mouthful. As a dear Texan friend used to call me.
At 50 I’m growing into myself I guess. I’ve always had so many interests its been difficult to narrow them down to what I am passionate about. It’s genealogy, nutrition and horticulture for me. If I was a young un, I’d create my own degree. How historical food supplies for specific peoples create nutritionally sound diets for the people of today.
You could be a volunteer EMT instructor.
It’s hard when you have put everything you have into raising your kids and they don’t need you every day anymore. Be prepared!
Putting everything into raising kids is a very good description! I have to keep my interests, keep taking classes and growing closer to my husband. You have many interests as well, I see. :)
Personally,
I’m willing to risk it. When do they leave?
I can’t wait to feel lonely!
Seriously tho Sally, your kids just moved away too, didn’t they? I’ve got six and already have some grandkids so the transition will probably be smoother for me. I can’t imagine if I only had two and they moved to a different country.
You’ll just have to pseudo adopt some of the girls on here…they’re young. They could probably use another “mom”…
You’re always welcome to come to Chicago and help me in my garden! I need to pick out three new trees this spring.
btw MK my chicago trip is set now. Just bought the plane tickets.
So saddened to read this post. Really saddened that the little baby was rejected so heartily. Just last night on PBS we watched a show call “The Teachings of Jon”. It was about a young man with Downs and how he has added to everyone’s life he has touched. Check out the website teachingsofjon.com. It is great show and I encourage you to look at every part of the site and try to see the show on your local PBS station.
Lovethemboth, I didn’t know about this show. Thank you for this.
After reading this article, I couldn’t help but notice how many times Katherine said “I”. 35 times. Only an I-centered, selfish person would do and think such things. I agree, Bethany. This is truly disgusting. (I’m not even going to go into the whole “contaminated” thing) That one just ticks me off to no end, and I’m trying to remain calm.
Sally, and MK…I got my degree in horticulture and I do landscaping.
How cool that you 2 are into it !
pip,
me, you and mk should get together when you come to the chi. I’ll even let you pinch Gabriella’s cheeks. promise!
Jess, 6:53,
The feminist never burned their bras.
MK, Sally, can you help me out here?
Plus I know what kinda father my boyfriend would be, he said he’s bringing Smoothie over to meet me and he wants to know if I’ll clean the cage. He had his cousin Jill clean the cage the last time. He hasn’t cleaned it yet I don’t think. Hrm, “Jess the baby smells clean it please!”
Plus what?
Jess, don’t worry about your boyfriend…my dad REFUSES to change a diaper. If he is at home and watching Gabriella (which is RARE) he leaves her in the poopy diaper til I get home. Some guys just can’t handle the whole diaper-changing business.
Sally, 8:49,
My Mom spends a lot of time on geneology. She’s trying to put together a book. I was thinking the other day, wouldn’t cloning and multiple parents be a bummer for geneologists? I guess egg and sperm donors already confuse things pretty good, especially with multiple siblings. How far back does your lineage go? Is yours all on computer? It’s so much work, but very cool to uncover all that history.
Elizabeth that would be fun!!
I saw a great T-shirt at Cafe Press. It said, “Love doesn’t count chromosomes.”
Where is our embrace of tolerance and diversity when somebody has an extra chromosome? It goes out the window. “Off to the pathology lab with you, Junior! We’re all for diveristy, as long as you look just like us and think just like us!”
And lest somebody say, “Well, nobody here is *insisting* that all babies with Down syndrome be aborted. We just say the mother should have the choice.”
Well, what if it wasn’t Down syndrome. What if a woman had sex with several differnt partners, and one of them was a Black man, and the other three were white men. And the woman had amnio done and got genetic testing and verified that the Black man was the father of this particular fetus. And she said she didn’t want to bring a minority baby into the world, that she couldn’t cope with such a “defective” baby. Can you see the bigotry when it’s skin color and not that extra chromosome?
Lovethemboth, I checked out teachingsofjon.com It looks like a great show.
The one thing I’d like to say, though, is that not all individuals who have Down syndrome are as severely affected as JOn. My daughter (early elementary school age) can read, count to at least 100, skip count by 2s, 5s, 10s, do simple Math, spell, and is one sharp little girl. There is a broad range in ability just as in all of us.
It is absolutely true that they have something to teach us.
Lovethemboth and Ellie,
I hope you both had a chance to read my Feb.12 12:18PM post concerning the theory of Down Syndrome being a metabolic and treatable disorder. Even older children were found to benefit from it. You likely know other parents of Down children who may find this interesting and informative.
Actually this discovery was made by another doctor almost 50 years ago but for whatever reason it was silenced. I’m sure you could get all the info you want by calling the number I mentioned.
My best to you both and your children. They are truly blessed with such parents as you.
Christina, 4:27am
Your comparison isn’t so far fetched. The day isn’t long gone when people of a certain race or mixed race were totally rejected and considered better off dead.
In Asian countries especially, mixed race has long been rejected by a very homogenous society with these children either left to die or abandoned to their fate.
Janet –
“Jess, 6:53,
The feminist never burned their bras.
MK, Sally, can you help me out here? ”
I wasn’t there, however I have heard that
When men were buring their draft cards some sort of journalist thought it would demean them by saying they were “burning their bra’s”. This saying got stuck in popular culture. Now, I do know that after this saying became well known, some women did get together at marches and burn bras – there are several pictures of this out there.
At least that is what I’ve read and heard many times……Don’t know if it is fact or not…
As for changing poopy diapers – My husband and I have a great system. I change the babies diapers and he picks up the dog poop in the backyard. Now some of you may think that is not a very fair trade off but wait until you hear about my dogs! 155 pound English Mastiff and a 140 pound Newfoundland. We didn’t have the Newfie when we made the deal either! ;-)
PIP,
When, when, when are you coming to Chicago? And yes, definitely you, me, Elizabeth, Sandy…we should ALL get together…FOR BREAKFAST!
Where are you staying? Why are you coming? Info., Info., and more Info.!
I arrive March 14 in the afternoon and leave early on the 20th
We really should all get together! That would be fantastic!
I’m probably staying at my friend Shenelle’s place, and I’m going because we are buddies and then she graduated and moved and I miss her :(
Plus it’s spring break!
Christina- that actually smacks to me of a gay support shirt. You know- XX, XY?
we should ALL get together…FOR BREAKFAST!
ummm…I looooove breakfast..really I would eat breakfast for all my meals if I could.
Oh man breakfast food is amazing.
**sniff, sniff, sniff**
WWWAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
I wanna go to breakfast too!
WWWAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
Valerie, I was thinking the same thing. Waaaaaahhh Why can’t we all live closer?
you guys can travel too!
My travels look something like National Lampoon’s vacation movies lol.
Actually, I can’t. lol Not all the way to Chicago. I can’t even drive myself to Birmingham which is an hour away because have a ridiculous fear of driving on the interstate. I’ve never flown in a plane, and don’t plan to- also can’t really afford it… and the chances of my husband taking me to Chicago are pretty much slim to none. lol So I’ll just have to live vicariously through all of your stories of meeting each other, unless one of you travels to see me one day! haha
aww Bethany. If I’m near your area I’ll hang out with you too!
I am not afraid of flying, because I do it all the time and can get cheap rates. Watch me get in a crash now lol
Elizabeth LOL I love traveling but there are always adventures I’ll tell ya that.
Oooh, breakfast food. The thing I missed most when I was living up north was Waffle House. I effing LOVE Waffle House.
unless one of you travels to see me one day!
sounds like a road trip is in order.
Can you imagine all of us in a car?
L.O.L.
It is sad that i am only 3 hours away from Chicago and can’t go to breakfast! WWAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
My van would never make the trip and Catherine would be a nightmare on a bus! ugg…..
haha you guys. I hope someday to make it around the US, so when I am in your area we will chill. Val you and I will def chill one day, when I’m in Indy next.
PIP –
Well I’m chill’n right now. Its freaken cold here!
;-)
LOL I know what you mean!
Oooh, breakfast food. The thing I missed most when I was living up north was Waffle House. I effing LOVE Waffle House.
Erin..?? Heck, the South is the home of Waffle House. Used to be that Interstate 70 was the northern border – all the restaurants were south of it or on it.
Doug
I can’t even drive myself to Birmingham which is an hour away because have a ridiculous fear of driving on the interstate.
Ah Bethany, you should have ridden with me last night. A nice blizzard and going full blast along the New York State Thruway. Ice, drifts, packed snow on the roads, zero visibility at times…hammer down heh heh heh.
Doug
Anonymous: After reading this article, I couldn’t help but notice how many times Katherine said “I”. 35 times. Only an I-centered, selfish person would do and think such things.
Yeah, it’s not like a pro-life person describing their abortion experience would say “I” much…. Oy Vey.
@@
@PiP: Your spring break is during my spring break! Darn! I can’t go to Chicago that week because I promised my parents I’d stay home with the puppers when they take my brothers to Florida to watch the Twin’s Spring Training.
(You should take a wee side trip to Minneapolis!)
Personally,
I’m willing to risk it. When do they leave?
I can’t wait to feel lonely!
Seriously tho Sally, your kids just moved away too, didn’t they? I’ve got six and already have some grandkids so the transition will probably be smoother for me. I can’t imagine if I only had two and they moved to a different country.
You’ll just have to pseudo adopt some of the girls on here…they’re young. They could probably use another “mom”…
You’re always welcome to come to Chicago and help me in my garden! I need to pick out three new trees this spring.
Posted by: mk at February 12, 2008 9:32 PM
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Gosh I miss the trees! Rockford is the Forest City you know! Keeping trees from growing was a challenge. Quite the opposite here in NM. What trees are you considering mk? Big shade trees? Ornamentals? Evergreens?
My kids moved out almost 7 years ago mk. Not very recent. Although both are planning to move to Australia this year. (I’m sad). Son plans to transfer to a university there. Daughter is looking to engineer while fulfilling her architectural internship while her hubby finishes his doctorate in art.
I will miss them something terrible. But I gave them strong wings. Wouldn’t dream of clipping them.
Sally, and MK…I got my degree in horticulture and I do landscaping.
How cool that you 2 are into it !
Posted by: Mike at February 12, 2008 10:16 PM
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Really? Are you hiring? I HATE being an office manager!
Ah Bethany, you should have ridden with me last night. A nice blizzard and going full blast along the New York State Thruway. Ice, drifts, packed snow on the roads, zero visibility at times…hammer down heh heh heh.
Sounds like fun, lol
Sally, 8:49,
My Mom spends a lot of time on geneology. She’s trying to put together a book. I was thinking the other day, wouldn’t cloning and multiple parents be a bummer for geneologists? I guess egg and sperm donors already confuse things pretty good, especially with multiple siblings. How far back does your lineage go? Is yours all on computer? It’s so much work, but very cool to uncover all that history.
Posted by: Janet at February 12, 2008 10:55 PM
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Well Janet, I know that I am my own cousin at least once!
Living so far away from family roots, a great deal of my family tree has been gathered from records on the internet. Every time that I get back to Illinois, I spend time at the genealogy department of the library and a great deal of time tramping through cemeteries. As well as begging elderly members of the family for anything they can remember.
I’m lucky to be old enough to have known family members born in the late 1800s who kept Bibles, letters, photos……. as well as carrying on the tradition of oral history.
The furthest back that I can prove ancestors would be through my father’s Finnish family. That would be back to the late 1500s.
Really? Are you hiring? I HATE being an office manager!
Oh my gosh, you too? It definately does have to be the suckiest job ever! The title is even a joke! It’s only Office Manager when something goes wrong. All other times, it’s Office Peon. Am I right, or what?
Really? Are you hiring? I HATE being an office manager!
Oh my gosh, you too? It definately does have to be the suckiest job ever! The title is even a joke! It’s only Office Manager when something goes wrong. All other times, it’s Office Peon. Am I right, or what?
Posted by: Anonymous at February 13, 2008 9:19 PM
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You have no idea!
Sally that is really interesting about your family. It must be so nice to know so much about where you came from.
I have a history book that my great grandfather printed for everyone in the extended family, which has pictures of his own grandfather, as well as pretty much everyone related to us that he could think of (on his side and his wife’s). There are descriptions of who the people were, what they were like, things they did, etc. My great Grandfather died at the age of 97 a few years ago. He was such a motivated individual, and an inspiration.. I love that I have a history book from our own past to share with the kids.
I actually will go to Minneapolis some time, got some peepz up there..but when its WARMER!
Ellie,
I definately know a number of children with Downs who read and count. The Show is just so touching and Jon is just so loveable!! I want everyone to see the show.
In ‘The Read Aloud Handbood’ by Jim Trelease, he relates the story about a family with a Downs child. Jim in a huge proponent of reading aloud to your children and has study after study to prove its benefits. The little girls family felt reading aloud was important for children with typical chromosomes so they put her on a diet of 10 books a day. In the fourth grade, this wonderful little girl was reading at the fouth grade level. I know in my children school, there are a number of children who aren’t reading at level and they have no disability. These children has such great potential!