Pro-life vid of day: Duggar girls discuss new book on purity
by LauraLoo
The eldest of the Duggar daughters on TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting recently revealed that they avoid spending time with men in order to not fall prey to sin and have sex before marriage. They were interviewed about this on Good Morning America today.
Their book, Growing Up Duggar, authored by Jana (24), Jill (22), Jessa (21) and Jinger (20), described the pitfalls that can happen when people rush to put themselves into physical and moral compromising situations that only bring temporary fulfillment.
The girls also say they “control” what’s going on internally. ”By censoring our thoughts through the filter of God’s Word, we will be able to recant any wrong thoughts or temptations that try to sneak in.”
Their mom, Michelle Duggar, posted a video just prior to the release of their book and explains it is her belief for children to not date prior to marriage, but definitely at least weekly after marriage.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzjd4-E1SoU[/youtube]
Your thoughts on such a counter-cultural way to live? Is it repressive to refrain from developing soul ties and bonds with people you won’t end up marrying? Or is it smart?
Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Amen.
Will buy this book for my daughter.
I absolutely love this…I am so sick of being the only one that is saying the truth about what dating does to your soul…It is so refreshing to hear a mother that has such love for her children that she is willing to protect them and not somehow relive their childhood through them…God bless you!
The oldest kids are over twenty but they can’t hang out with people of the opposite gender without family supervision? Wow. That would suck. Most of my friends have always been women. And honestly if you’re in your twenties or late teens and you’re incapable of being around the opposite gender without being tempted into sex you have deeper issues than just trying not to get too close to people you aren’t going to marry. I mean, they can live that way if they want, I’m not going to tell them how to live, but it seems nuts to me, I wouldn’t want to live like that.
I believe teens should be taught about self-esteem/self-respect, responding to peer pressure, & be taught about healthy monogamous relationships (w/ mutual respect & trust), as this is the basis of a healthy relationship. I also realize many teens & young adults are going to choose to have sex & should be given information on safer sex. Realistically patriarchal religious rules & constant supervision doesn’t work for most teens/young adults & so I for one won’t be buying nor recommending such a puritanical book.
They are not “incapable.” Jack. They are friends with their sisters. They protect themselves by sticking together.
They protect themselves FROM temptation. They do not LEAD themselves or others into it.
The horror.
Cause “hooking up” brings such peace.
So they can only be friends with their family or other women, maybe? Seems repressive to me. Like I said, I don’t particularly care what they do, if it makes them happy they can go for it. It’s not how I would choose to live or teach my kids to live.
And don’t even, when you know I don’t agree with “hooking up” or think it’s healthy at all. Being anti-one way of living doesn’t mean I have to be pr0-another way of living necessarily.
Amen Jack.
Come on girls, tell it like it is. You’re relegated to being nannies and housemaids while mom and dad enjoy trips to NYC and Puerto Rico. They produce the kids, you take care of them.
Every aspect of your lives are rigidly controlled so its hardly possible for you to even be around men without Daddy D breathing down your necks. Heck, when was the last time you just went out with girlfriends to shop or have lunch?
Did anyone really believe Daddy D would let Jill become a nurse? No way would he ever let her out of his control. ITYS my friends.
Sorry ladies, but you’ll remain the household drudges until Daddy D decides to marry you off. Guess you have no other choice than to make the best of it.
What a waste of so much potential.
Sorry ladies, but you’ll remain the household drudges until Daddy D decides to marry you off. Guess you have no other choice than to make the best of it. What a waste of so much potential.
They can live how they choose, but I am not a fan at all.
And is someone who has sex before marriage somehow “impure?”
Hi phillymiss,
The parents can live as they choose, but they certainly haven’t given their daughters any choices.
The older four are grown women, if they so choose they may leave their parents way of life and choose something different for themselves. It’s not easy to leave your entire family, but it’s possible.
Hi Jack,
Yes legally they could, but how prepared would they be for economic independence and social interaction? My heart went out to Jill, who actually seemed to have a dream, something she really wanted. I knew it would never happen.
From what I’ve watched of the show, Jill seems like an intelligent woman. She may not be particularly prepared for life on her own, but neither was I and I eventually did all right. She just has to decide her dreams are more important than her parents wishes. If she chooses her parents wishes over her dreams of a career, that’s her decision. Sad to me, but it’s not my life. She can make her own decisions.
I think the message is correct- my husband and I waited for marriage…We were 16 and 17 when we met as juniors in HS and have been together since. My question is, how do they find husbands if they don’t date? Do they have arranged marriages? Dating doesn’t have to be sexual. It wasn’t for us…We knew we wanted to wait and we also knew we wanted to get married as soon as we graduated college. We made it happen. I never felt sinful for having a boyfriend….or “dating” prior to marriage. How else will you know who you’re marrying? Such a huge decision should be based on trust and compatibility, and there’s no way I’d marry someone I didn’t know thoroughly.
I will say that the Quiverfull movement and such is pretty cult-like. It’s hard to leave things like that. But not impossible. You simply can’t force someone to leave it though.
Wait, aren’t Jill and Jana in a study program to train to be certified midwives?
And Jill was working with the fire department as a first responder?
For some reason, that’s not what I expected to learn, with all the hubbub around here talking about the “control issues” and the “oppression of women” going on in the Duggar family.
Regarding the actual post here, however, I think it’s great that SOMEONE is standing up and saying, “Here are some strategies to help you stay pure, if you want to.” So many kids WANT to know this stuff but don’t know who to ask and parents don’t often know how to talk to them about it. I’m glad we have these young women who can offer practical advice to those who wish to consider an abstinent lifestyle.
Self-control. Now there’s a term that you don’t hear much in the modern world. But basically, self-control is simply self-esteem and self-respect when they really exist and are put into practice.
My sons are 23 and 25, and they have never dated in “serious” relationships. We did not impose any rules or indoctrination…. the young men had good moral formation, and this is how they decided to live it.
They realize that dating is discernment for marriage, and they want to enjoy good marriages. Meanwhile, preparing well for marriage means guarding one’s purity of body and emotional attachments. And so they hang out with “churchy” groups of young people who understand the same principles. As a result, they have lots of friendships and rich young lives — without all the drama and fears and sexual entanglements.
I wish I had been so wise in the late ’70’s and early ’80’s.
Hi deluded lib pro lifer
How about this? I agree with you 100%. First and last (?) time!
Lol! Probably not the last time Christine, lib pro-choicers agree with me fairly often on topics other than abortion. And then people get mad at me lol.
“Regarding the actual post here, however, I think it’s great that SOMEONE is standing up and saying, “Here are some strategies to help you stay pure, if you want to.” So many kids WANT to know this stuff but don’t know who to ask and parents don’t often know how to talk to them about it. I’m glad we have these young women who can offer practical advice to those who wish to consider an abstinent lifestyle. ”
Yeah I don’t really have an issue with that. If someone chooses to live that way it’s fine. I’m just kinda flabbergasted by the “no relationships with men, at all” and the whole not being around people without their family members thing. Honestly (I’m not trying to be mean) sounds like hell to me. I’ve made plenty of mistakes because of how I was raised, but I’m not really sure that this is a healthy way to go about choosing a non-sexually active lifestyle. But each to their own, I suppose.
Well, honestly – the whole “not being around people [men, at least] without their family members thing” was done in times past. Young women always either had a sibling or another family member as a chaperone. I guess going out in groups could be a more “modern” approach to that sort of thing.
Hi Kel,
From what I’ve read Jana and Jill are being trained to be midwives under the supervision of another midwife. It looks like she and Jana would service only the religious community of which they are a part. No problem with that except Jill wanted to be a nurse. This way daddy keeps her under his thumb.
Jill was a volunteer first responder for the local fire dept. Not exactly NYC and certainly no way for her to have any kind of economic independence.
“Well, honestly – the whole “not being around people [men, at least] without their family members thing” was done in times past. Young women always either had a sibling or another family member as a chaperone. I guess going out in groups could be a more “modern” approach to that sort of thing. ”
Well I don’t believe everything done in the past is worth bringing forward to current day, but that’s just my feelings on it. Gosh I can’t imagine having to have family members around to interact with other people. I’d never have any friends and certainly no relationships ever again lol. I was planning on letting my kids do group dates until they were seventeen or so (and when they are young they can just have friends over to the house or with parental supervision), when they are adults they can do as they please and hopefully what I taught them will guide their behavior.
Hi Becca,
Daddy D arranges their relationships and eventual marriages. Until such time, they’re housemaids and nannies.
Now that Josh and Anna have moved to Washington, maybe they, especially Anna, will see there is a world out there.
Now that there is “hooking up” which is often screwing without the other activities of a “date”, arranged marriages or the Duggar method are looking more and more attractive and reasonable, for those who hope to find life partner.
Certainly having a very focused way of finding a prospective marriage partner is warranted, since it seems that so many people don’t understand a concept of sexual exclusivity.
Arranged marriage seriously sounds like the worst thing ever.
“Is it repressive to refrain from developing soul ties and bonds with people you won’t end up marrying? Or is it smart?”
Based purely on my own experience I would say it’s smart. And I didn’t even have an experience people would look at as damaging. But I know how much of my mental and emotional time I poured into whatever boy served as my idol of the month. I lost years of my life. I nurtured so many harmful perceptions of myself based on what I thought I was supposed to be in the eyes of the opposite sex. I listened intently to what Hollywood taught me about what love would look and feel like. It’s by God’s grace that I met my husband and we have an amazing marriage where we are both maturing in Christ everyday.
For the record, I’m puzzled when I hear the Duggars criticized so harshly. They, including all the kids, express a deep joy with their own lives and are quite gracious towards others. If being “free” means that they develop the incredulity and outrage towards others that is expressed at them regularly, then sign me up to live under someone’s thumb. :)
Hi Laurie,
I have no issue with the children, I’m only sorry to see their lives so rigidly controlled. I think there is so much potential there, and yes they are great kids.
The parents are another matter to me altogether.
As for how happy people are, we can never truly know that.
What do you mean rigidly controlled? I’m just not even sure what you’re referring to.
Where is the failed potential? I know that at 24, 22, 21, 20 I was not so thoughtful, motivated, directed, or self-assured as these girls.
Of course we can never know how happy people are aside from what they say. So why is there such conviction that these young adults and their minor siblings aren’t actually happy?
Laurie,
As soon as the children can walk they have a younger sibling foisted on them to care for so mom can keep reproducing. Do they even have a childhood? They are home schooled, home churched, any social interaction is controlled. Do you ever see these children attend birthday parties or have sleepovers? Do they play with neighbor children? The young women are relegated to lives as nannies and housemaids. Do you see them socially interact with other young men and women their ages not dictated by mom and dad? Good grief, something as benign as shopping with a girlfriend or dinner with friends is unheard of. That is friends not designated by mom and dad.
Of course mom and dad get their trips to NYC and Puerto Rico. Sure would be nice if the older girls could go somewhere without having to haul around kids. But they are needed to care for children and run the household.
Failed potential? Jill wanted to be a nurse. Snaaaap went the leash. Did the other women have dreams too? We’ll never know.
I didn’t say they aren’t happy, I said we can not know for certain that people are.
“Now that Josh and Anna have moved to Washington, maybe they, especially Anna, will see there is a world out there.”
Haha, no. Josh has a job with that dreadful FRC, he’ll be surrounded by people who share his exact values and never will see anything else, and Anna stays home with the three kids (so far), so it’s not like she’ll be exposed to anything outside the church setting.
The thing I would never, ever do with my adult kids is basically decide who they get to date (sorry “court”) or not. Sure, use your input as a parent to tell your kid they are making a bad decision if they bring home a drug dealer or whatever, but when your twenty-year-old daughter has to ask permission to text a boy from her parents I’m sorry, that just seems like control freak behavior. And of course if good ol’ Jim Bob doesn’t like the boy’s haircut or whatever, sorry Jessa, if you want to be a good girl you better not talk to someone you like anymore. Even though you are twenty. And at twenty your child should be capable of finding a partner without mom and dad weeding out undesirables. For goodness sake. That can’t possibly be healthy. It’s not my life and they can do as they please, but I would never let anyone have control over who I spend the rest of my darn life with.
And I bet you anything Josh didn’t have to ask permission to text Anna when they were dating. It’s the girls who get controlled in this ridiculous manner, the boys get a lot more freedom. And they are generally not stuck at home taking care of piles of children.
Seriously, any of you happily married ladies really think that you would have been okay if you met your future husband, and daddy was like “haha, nope I don’t like him” and you had no say? When you’re an adult?
Hi Jack,
I just figured that at least they got out of the isolation of the Duggar compound. Also moving to a city and being exposed to other people, I mean you can’t help it, you have neighbors, and interacting with someone other than a Duggar, would for them be a huge step into the real world.
You’re right, I do remember seeing that Daddy D monitors texts, etc. of the daughters. Talk about a control freak.
And they made Joy-Anna wear a skirt when she was rock climbing! I mean, come on Jim Bob that can’t be more modest than letting her wear some baggy cargo pants or something.
I seriously don’t think I could ever build a relationship with a woman who had to ask her dad for permission to see me. I just couldn’t respect her. I’m sorry if that’s mean but I just couldn’t do it.
Thank for the response Mary.
Hm, I’m looking with different eyes I suppose. I just started watching their program recently… maybe in the last six months. Based on that…
I see a family helping one another. It’s natural that the older help the younger. Watching the show, the pairings of older and younger seem quite flexible and organic. It doesn’t appear that there is much more assignment than when I take a group of kids out and make them stick with a buddy.
I see that the children have more exuberant childhoods than my kids do. :) I’m guilty of always shushing, and letting my boredom show when I have to take the place of a more interesting play-date.
I’ve seen them attend birthday parties and have their own birthday parties attended by others. I’ve watched them play with lots of other kids, both on their own turf and while out.
I see all the kids interacting with a variety of people of all ages in settings where Dad and Mom couldn’t possibly be supervising every interaction. The older kids hang with other older kids and the younger with other youngers. Just like the rest of us. The older kids just don’t seem to distain the presence of adults and younger siblings.
I’ve seen the children travel rather extensively, including internationally.
Do you suppose there’s any chance that Jill talked with someone (maybe even her parents) about her thoughts towards being a nurse and then changed her own mind upon further consideration and research? I can’t count how many times my job and career goals changed from 18 to 24. Is being a midwife failing to reach the potential of a nurse?
In my original post I said that I see them express deep joy – I believe that is where the happiness determination came from? You didn’t explicitly say they are unhappy, but you said we can’t know in the ominous context of children enslaved as caretakers for their younger siblings, forced to be housekeepers through their young adult lives until they fail to reach their potential by settling for being midwives. But maybe they like being with and caring for their family, being part of a functioning home, and are fine-tuning their dreams before they invest these potential filled-years?
Maybe?
Oh, with this older girl and the texting supervision…
She’s been in the public eye now for several years. We’ve all heard the Hollywood horror stories of how people work to manipulate themselves into the lives and bank-accounts and onto the platforms of people with any degree of status. Is it possible that she wants to do something to extra-verify that this guy is interested in her, on her terms, and isn’t just trying to be on TV? “You’re texts must go through my dad” could be a savvy maneuver to vet him.
Don’t know about you, but when I think of my own kids making those decisions in their early twenties, I’m not having to factor in reality TV and it’s way of attracting all sorts of interesting characters.
Except that he goes to her church and has been for years I believe.
And if you know anything about Quiverfull (which is the Duggar’s life philosophy, basically), all girls are more or less controlled in similar ways regardless of reality tv show involvement. That’s partly the reason why it gives me strong cult vibes and I’m not the only one who thinks that. It’s apparent to me watching 19 Kids and Counting that Jim Bob runs the show, everyone kowtows to him (except the boys get a modicum of freedom when they hit adulthood, but Jim Bob’s still the patriarch) and he gets to make all decisions of importance, even decisions his adult children make that will effect the rest of their entire lives. And I’m sure the girl’s husband’s will be expected to rule them the same way Jim Bob does, and the boys will be expected to rule their wives and children. Honestly, I hate it, I can’t imagine living that way again (the “church” I was raised in was very similar in some ways, dad rules the roost and basically gets to do whatever he wants, it didn’t go so well for my dad’s wife and children), and if any of them find that type of life stifling I really hope they bite the bullet and get out. If they are happy, then whatever. I’m glad I’m not in that type of environment and I would never let myself be ever again.
I am always amazed at how any mention of anything remotely having to do with the Duggars on this website drive folks absolute bats%!t crazy.
Yes, disagreeing with a lifestyle makes people crazy. Unless you think the Duggars are perfection incarnate apparently you’re just angry or something.
Hi Laurie,
I see a family helping one another. Its natural that the older help the younger. I saw a mother who dumped toddlers on older siblings so that she could enjoy another pregnancy and new baby. Helping out is one thing, parental responsibilities foisted on young children another. If mom can’t take care of all these kids, then maybe she shouldn’t be having them.
The children have more exuberant childhoods. In what way? For the most part they are socially isolated on the Duggar compound, taking care of younger siblings. Any social interactions are dictated by mom and dad. Sure they may interact with other children, but mom and dad determine when, who, and where. I’ve never seen the older girls, now grown women, just enjoy the company of other young adults, without mom and dad dictating who these young adults are, or daddy D breathing down their necks if they dare talk to young men. But mom and dad do need their nannies and housemaids. Maybe you wouldn’t be “shushing” so much Laurie if you could foist your kids on older siblings to care for.
I’ve seen them travel internationally. Sure, and who gets the kids ready and supervises them? Bingo. Ain’t daddy and momma D. Its the older daughters. Don’t you think it would be nice if they could take a trip someplace minus the kids, like daddy and momma D do? I mean, they are grown women.
About Jill. I told everyone on this blog from day one it would never happen. It was never a choice for her, only a dream. She discussed this with her parents? Uh, no. To me a more likely scenario is her parents discussed it with her and laid down the law. Ain’t gonna happen. Exposure to the real world, an education, and economic independence? Fat chance Daddy D would ever permit that. Being a midwife is keeping Jill right where Daddy D wants her, under his tyrannical thumb.
I see socially isolated and rigidly controlled children. I see parents who are totally self absorbed and controlling.
You and I definitely see this situation from a different set of eyes.
DPL-P, just because he was raised at church doesn’t mean he’s not a rascal. Ask anyone who was raised in church, whether they still go or not. ;)
I can sympathize with your reaction given your personal history. But none of our personal histories can be used as evidence regarding the intent of someone else’s lives. If you really think “if they are happy, whatever”, then be whatever about it.
I grant you full license to tell me “I told you so” if the time comes. :)
Laurie, 8:56PM
Daddy D is a control freak.
No one forced them onto Reality TV.
Well, Laurie, I don’t think that it’s wrong to criticize lifestyles that you believe are damaging. There are a few “lifestyles” that quite constantly get a beating on this blog. The Duggars are no more immune to criticism than anyone else. I’m not saying they are bad people at all, though. I am betting they’ll have at least one kid who rebels or turns out gay or becomes an atheist or something. I wonder if the kid will be rejected from the family for not going along with what Jim Bob decides for their life.
And I can’t stand the “J” naming scheme. I don’t think it’s cute at all.
Okay I’ll stop I promise.
Deluded and Mary, I agree with you. I think the Quiverfull movement does have cult like vibes. So its not possible for young men and women to be friends without having sex?
Overall, I like and respect the Duggar family but the family’s belief for the girls to avoid men to avoid temptation is going too far and isn’t healthy. As young Christian ladies, how will they ever learn how to fight temptation unless they use their ‘spiritual muscle’ and put themselves out there (in a respectable way) with the opposite sex? If they don’t want to date men before marriage, that’s their choice, but to not relate with them at all is very odd. Having choice friends of the opposite sex is also a great way to prepare for if/when they do meet the man they would eventually like to marry. LL
Hi LL,
I agree with you. Some of my best and dearest friends have been and are men.
Social skills and interactions have to be learned, and sadly these young women have had little opportunity. Either their morals are ingrained in them or not, and social isolation should not have to be necessary.
Hi Mary, I agree with you. LL :)
Courtnay,
Indeed. The mere mention of the Duggar name………
Would that we could harness some of that energy and hit the streets as prolife counselors and SAVE LIVES??!!!
They will call good, evil. That young people WANT to remain pure for their spouse that is also remaining pure for them? That they want to avoid temptation and all of the heartbreak that entails? That they want to set a good example for young people of what it looks like to be courted and married in a monogamous marriage? HOW DARE THEY????!!!
Jack you should at least understand given your background in sexual and physical abuse and drug abuse that this could be considered a sign of HEALTH??!! That they are protecting themselves from the heartache of STD’s, unplanned pregnancy, being used and abused? That they are AVOIDING all of the high risk behavior of the teens that have ZERO self control?
Anyway, I read this thread and laughed. So thanks for that.
Because patriarchy.
I would think if morality is so deeply ingrained in the Duggar girls then social isolation would not be necessary. I strongly suspect this is more Daddy D.’s dictate and tyrannical control than anything.
Also, I don’t hear complaints about heated debates and discussions concerning Obama and gay people. Compared to them the Duggars have been given a free pass. Must depend on who’s ox is being gored.
Mmmmm while I agree that you ought to protect yourself from sexual sins/temptation/whatever, avoiding men (or women) isn’t the healthy way to do that.
Stop conflating dating with sex. You can do the one without the other, and vice versa.
How are you supposed to truly get to know one another if other people are all around? If, as Christians say, marriage ought to be a life-long commitment, ought people not be able to get to know each other as deeply as possible beforehand without artificial constraints? (i.e., family around?)
You get to know someone when they’re in private. That’s when the gloves can come off and when you can stop performing. no, it’s not perfect and people do lie. But I think you’ve got a better shot at getting to know the real person without all your siblings and parents and even other friends hanging around. They won’t be there on the honeymoon (let’s hope) or thereafter.
What’s wrong with seeing a person you like and are interested in, acknowledging the mutual attraction/interest, and then doing a series of activities and progressing into a deeper relationship to see if this person and you could marry one another? I think *that’s* healthy. Then, if something comes up and you realize this person isn’t great or has red flags or you both just decide it’s not for you, then you can break up. Isn’t that better than divorcing or being trapped in an unhappy marriage?
I just don’t get what all the hullabaloo about dating is. It’s not like dating’s a sin.
It can lead to sin, but, newsflash, so can living.
And yes, the Quiverfull movement is damaging and harmful and very, very cultlike.
I’ve seen what it can do and it’s not pretty. No one should have that kind of power over their families. It makes me nauseous to see and I see echoes of that in Mark Driscoll’s and other complementarian philosophy – just echoes, but still it makes me shiver. Sorry, but men don’t all have to be preening peacocks and lord it over their families even if they paint themselves as kind – a dictator’s a dictator. And that it’s painted with the ‘godly’ brush is all the more disturbing to me.
So glad that my partner respects me and supports my dreams and opinions and decisions. And doesn’t think my only place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. ;)
Hi LibertyBelle,
Great points.
I remain convinced this is a control issue by a tyrannical father more than it is anything.
Yep! Mary, I personally know people who were raised like this (being homeschooled, a lot of my friends were Quiverfull) and now that we’re all grown up, quite a few of them are reeling from the repercussions from this mindset. They feel lost (especially the girls) because they were never given the freedom to make any meaningful decisions on their own. A few of them are now divorced. It’s heartbreaking to watch. :( To be honest, it won’t suprise me one bit if some of the Duggars decide to rebel – and rebel hard. I know I would.
Hi LB,
Its so sad that these young women have been so infantilized. They don’t even consider themselves capable of making the moral choices adults often must or involving themselves in social interactions. They can’t be trusted beyond the playpen.
Why yes. Yes of course the whole family goes on the honeymoon!!!!
LOL
Perhaps you can find other sources about “courting” that are more palatable to you.
I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris comes to mind.
Hi Carla,
I have no idea what you’re referring to.
Carla, sorry I actually didn’t like that book. :(
But like I said, I’m not against being pure or having high standards for dating. I’m just a little gun shy about how all this courting nonsense can go wrong.
And LOL I’m so glad my whole family didn’t go on our honeymoon! But I will say the walls where we stayed were soooooo thin. The family next door had a loud dog. It was a little awkward. lol They probably got an earful.
It’s a hard line to have. And I’d say things in line with the courting aspect might be good for like, say, teenagers, but when you’re an adult in the real world… it’s just not realistic and doesn’t help you form mature relationships. :(
Why cast aspersions though?
They might rebel. They could turn out to be gay. They might get divorced.
So could my kiddoes.
I raise them counter cultural as well. I am trying to spare them the heartache and pain I experienced as a self destructive, promiscuous, partying young girl with STD’s and an appt for an abortion.
I find at the very least……..that a different perspective is refreshing. I tire of what Hollywood dishes out to our young, the messages they receive, the trash that passes for “entertainment.” Sorry Miley. You are no role model for my daughter.
It doesn’t matter Mary. :)
I try to strike a healthy balance. I take what I like and leave the rest.
There are things I like that the Duggars do and things I don’t.
If that makes sense. I could go full blown legalistic on my children but I don’t. :)
“Jack you should at least understand given your background in sexual and physical abuse and drug abuse that this could be considered a sign of HEALTH??!! That they are protecting themselves from the heartache of STD’s, unplanned pregnancy, being used and abused? That they are AVOIDING all of the high risk behavior of the teens that have ZERO self control?”
Well I don’t think it’s a fair analogy because I did try to prevent those things. And I didn’t say there was anything wrong with purity or not dating or avoiding sex with anyone but your spouse.
I just think it’s a bad idea to control your children to the point that they can’t meet people of the opposite gender without you, and that you’re going through your adult child’s text messages, and that they’ve never gotten an education or had any friends even at Jana’s age that the parents haven’t approved up. Like Mary said, if at 24 Jana hasn’t learned discernment and judgment in dating, that’s her parent’s bad and controlling her further isn’t going to instill it. They Duggar girls aren’t treated like women (I actually feel weird calling the oldest four “girls”, Jana’s about my age), they’re being treated like they are still fourteen years old and can’t be trusted with their own dating life.
“Mary, I personally know people who were raised like this (being homeschooled, a lot of my friends were Quiverfull) and now that we’re all grown up, quite a few of them are reeling from the repercussions from this mindset. They feel lost (especially the girls) because they were never given the freedom to make any meaningful decisions on their own”
Yup, it’s being cult raised. You’re so inculcated in the cult’s way of life and brainwashing that when you realize the world doesn’t actually work like that it’s a culture shock. There’s actually a high rate of alcoholism and drug addiction for people who leave cults, especially as teens or young adults, because it’s so difficult to cope with. If you’re raised in one you basically have no real education, no skills, and no real way of relating with people.
And like Mary said, everyone else’s lifestyle, or even things about them they can’t change, is up for criticism and debate, except conservatives? Come on, no one is perfect and no one is saying “The Duggars are evil and deserve to have their children taken away!”. Nope. But there are valid concerns. If (God forbid) Michelle and Jim Bob died in a car wreck or something, I seriously worry that their adult daughters couldn’t make it on their own because they’ve never had the opportunity to be adults.
Exactly, DLPL. Totally. I mean if that’s how they want to live, fine. But we can critisize conservatives and no one – no one – is perfect.
Carla I get what you’re saying. It might be a difference between how we were raised though. I was raised closely acquainted with the philsophy and saw first hand how damaging it can be. So due to my past, I’m more gunshy about stuff like that maybe you are.
“I was raised closely acquainted with the philsophy and saw first hand how damaging it can be. So due to my past, I’m more gunshy about stuff like that maybe you are. ”
See people make jokes about “patriarchy” on this website a lot (and it’s valid usually, the pro-choicers use the term in ridiculous and inaccurate ways), but Quiverfull and the related philosophies are literally patriarchal and I’m sorry that stuff just isn’t healthy nowadays. The time where men “needed” to micromanage their daughters and marry them off to a suitor they hand-picked is long gone, if it was ever necessary in the first place. I’m sorry, I don’t consider my daughter stupid (though she’s only three, she’s smart as a whip!), if I instill values in her early I figure by Jana’s age at the latest she’ll be able to make good decisions without me going through her text messages, making sure she has no male friends, or weeding out undesirable suitors. The “church” I was raised in was similar to Quiverfull and such in some respects (though a lot of their theology I believe was quite a bit more non-Biblical and abusive than Quiverfull is in general). The man runs the family, the wife is not an equal partner and is expected to abide by his decisions, the children have to obey everything the man decides whether or not it’s something they want for their lives, and this continues into adulthood until the patriarch is dead and the oldest son is now the one everyone in the family is supposed to follow (except younger sons were given leeway within their own families, they were still expected to obey their fathers and to a lesser extent their mothers). As you can imagine, these kind of philosophies attract and create incredibly abusive men like my dad because abusers love places where they get free reign and no one will step in or say anything. Or it creates just run of the mill controllers, and creates children very ill-suited for life outside that particular religious group.
My ancestry consists of immigrants from Scandinavia moving to the Dakotas to farm.
My great great greats lived near relatives, attended one room school houses and stuck close to their large families. The opportunities to meet a future spouse were limited to other immigrant neighbor families. When a young man was interested in a young girl they courted after the young man asked the father’s permission. THAT was how it was done in my own family tree.
It is not so far fetched for me. We have lost all sense of propriety and protection of our young girls. We have lost all sense of modesty, chastity and morality. Or at least it would seem.
The Duggars attend home school conventions with other families of their “cult.” They are close friends with other families that have large numbers of children. Young men express interest and go to the fathers and ask permission to court daughters after much prayer.
You do realize that so much of what they believe and live is straight from The Good Book that I believe in right? The morality and values they live are the same for me.
I would love a link or two though. :)
I mean, I believe in the Bible as well. I believe we ought to be set apart and that we ought to conduct ourselves in modesty, chastity, and morality.
And trust me, I went to those same homeschool conventions. And I’m pretty sure I scandalized the Quiverfullers by wearing pants and walking amongst the books by myself. ;)
But like I said. It’s just that I’ve seen where it can lead and where it can lead is very dangerous. :( Like Jack said, it gives special coverage to abusers. Not all homeschoolers are like that, nor all people who want their daughters to court (there are approximately 3,892.4 different definitions of courting btw. It turns out even my dad and I had different definitions!) but specifically the Quiverfull movement and a lot of heavily patriarchal branches of the purity movement.
Again, I’m not saying that promiscuity is the way to go.
“When a young man was interested in a young girl they courted after the young man asked the father’s permission. THAT was how it was done in my own family tree. ”
That was pretty common in many western and eastern cultures. But I do not believe it is right. It often stemmed from the belief that daughters were economic assets to the husband’s family (for things like dowries and such) and marriage was more an economic transaction between the daughter’s father and the prospective groom. I do not believe that my daughter is mine to give away, when she’s a minor in my home I will set my rules and supervise so she can learn self-control and I will teach her how to recognize red flags of abusive or irresponsible behavior, and when she’s an adult I hope to have instilled enough self-worth and responsibility in her that she will be capable, as a strong, independent woman, to make her own decisions on who she dates and who she would like to spend the rest of her life with. As a father I’ll always be there for advice and protection, but NOT as a the person in charge. It’s her life, her decision to spend it with who she thinks is best for her. She is in charge, as an adult, of her sexual decisions and her romantic life, I am there for support and guidance, and protection if necessary. Not to be in charge.
And you mentioned my issues with being physically and sexually abused, and asked why I wouldn’t see that the Duggar women were trying to be healthy and avoid those things. Well first I would say that I did try to avoid those things, I didn’t do a good enough job and I’ve said I’m really, really sorry for that and I understand that being regretful doesn’t undo it, but I did try. I don’t think it was all my doing though. I didn’t learn actual social skills, I never was taught how to manage my own relationships, because my parents managed and controlled my relationships for me, and I had no idea how to build healthy relationships or recognize unhealthy ones. I was terribly isolated, and I certainly didn’t learn how to avoid promiscuity and other things, so when I rebelled at age eleven or twelve or so and fell in with the wrong crowd and learned some other terrible ways of living life because I didn’t really have the social skills or ability to live in a healthy way. So I think rigidly controlling your children’s social interactions and not teaching them how to have relationships without sex (because just preventing them from ever having relationships isn’t teaching them to build relationships without sex, it’s just leaving them without coping skills when they do eventually get in a relationship). And I ended up marrying an abusive, controlling woman because I didn’t even recognize what she did as abuse or controlling, for some reason I thought hitting was pretty normal, and I didn’t know it wasn’t normal for your wife to go through your phone while you were asleep, or not let you have friends, or go through all your emails, etc. This stuff really does leave a mark and if you can’t even recognize it as wrong it’s hard to get out of.
And honestly, my sisters had a similar upbringing to the Duggar girls in some ways (OBVIOUSLY the Duggars have a much healthier, happier and stabler home than my sisters did, but they were never sexually or physically abused, that didn’t happen to girls in my family ). My sisters are probably a better analogy to the Duggars if you want to bring up my family Carla. They were all prevented from having boyfriends or relationships with male friends unless they got parental approval (my mother’s approval, because my dad never cared about the girls or what they did). They weren’t allowed to even speak to young men, even men from our church, unless my mother allowed it. They never learned self-control, because my mom controlled the interactions. They weren’t allowed to have cell phones, they weren’t allowed to go to movies, they were expected to remain home with my parents until they were married. All of them (except for the eldest, who is a lesbian and refused to marry the man she was supposed to marry, she got disowned for a while) ended up marrying extremely controlling men, one of them married a man who beat her (I nearly got in a fight with him when I was like fifteen, I don’t like my sister but I like men who beat women even less), and one of them is on her third marriage. I realize that the Duggar’s home is much, much more happy, healthy, and stable than mine was, but some of the same patterns of control I see Jim Bob doing (like not allowing his adult daughter to text men he doesn’t like, and not allowing her to form relationships with men unless he approves) is stuff I recognize from how my mother controlled my sisters, and me until I was too rebellious for her to even beat into submission. And my mom didn’t hate my sisters like she did me (my brother’s a different story), she did love them and thought she was doing what was best for their spiritual lives and such. I just think it’s an unhealthy way of going about it.
“You do realize that so much of what they believe and live is straight from The Good Book that I believe in right? The morality and values they live are the same for me. ”
I don’t think that their or your values are wrong. I think that abstinence before marriage is a good value for many people and it’s definitely okay to teach your children that. I think it’s good to protect your children from falling into the hook-up culture. I wish I had never been involved with it and I wish that there had ever been a time where I was “pure” or innocent or whatever, I didn’t get any of that and yes I realize I should have so I don’t need to hear that anymore. What I am objecting to is control instead of guidance. I fear that this way of raising the kids isn’t teaching them how to have self-control and how to recognize unhealthy situations, it’s teaching them that their dad is in charge of all that. I don’t think that’s a message I ever want my children to have, especially my daughter. I see no reason why a 20 yo woman, raised in a healthy family with good values instilled, cannot be trusted to make her own “courting” decisions. I think there are much deeper issues going on if she reaches that age and cannot make these decisions for herself.
Here’s a blog with stories from people who were raised in/got sucked into Quiverfull ideology and how it damaged them and affected their lives. I don’t agree with everything they talk about (obviously, I don’t think it’s Christianity that is the problem, it’s a particular group’s interpretation of certain Biblical passages along with male dominance that is causing the problems imo), and a lot of them are okay with promiscuity and such which I definitely don’t think is healthy, but if you read their stories you can see that there has been some heavy damage caused to many of them because of the way they were raised.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/
Thanks Jack.
Hi Carla 3:39PM
This is my point. The children’s social interactions are rigidly controlled. They associate with and are “friends” with whom their parents determine, all like minded people. You don’t see the children forming spontaneous friendships or playing with neighborhood children.
My niece’s fiancée asked my brother’s permission. Not that they needed to, it was just a courtesy and a sign of respect to my brother and his wife. Some people still carry on this tradition.
I can understand the small close knit communities you describe, and we also must consider that people were not very mobile. They were more confined to wherever it was they lived. My father and his brother were adopted and raised in S. Dakota farming communities as well, but my father moved to the big city as soon as he was a young man, his brother moved to another one. People moved on to where there was more opportunity and adventure. Not everyone wanted to farm.
In my opinion the Duggar girls are confined to the compound. It isn’t their option to say, “hey dad, I want to go to college or tech school, and move elsewhere.” I find it troubling that they only seem to parrot each other, while mom and dad nod approvingly. Morality and values are one thing, and certainly should be encouraged. Rigid control and confinement are quite another, and I see nothing biblical about it.
I agree with Jack that these “religious” groups can be havens for controllers and abusers.
What I am objecting to is control instead of guidance. I fear that this way of raising the kids isn’t teaching them how to have self-control and how to recognize unhealthy situations, it’s teaching them that their dad is in charge of all that.
And that is way more articulate, but that’s exactly what I was trying to say.
The problem is not the values; it’s in the fact that daddy won’t always be there (nor should he be). But instead as parents we (we!?) ought to teach our children the values and to have the self-control and intergrity to act on those values even and perhaps esepcially when parents are not around. We ought to guide our children to take good values and own them, so that they do it because they want not because daddy or mommy is standing over their shoulders. This is especially true when children reach adult age.
Not that my parents were perfect, but they did a lot right. They instilled values in us and then, as we mastered values and got older, they let us make more decisions for ourselves. I never rebelled because I didn’t feel like I had to. I was given freedoms and the restrictions that were placed on my life were explained (usually for my safety – i.e. text mom to let her know where I am/that I’m breathing lol). Then when I was 18 and dating my now-partner, my parents sat me down and told me that they weren’t really my official authority anymore, that I was on my own. I could come to them for advice and help, but that I was now on my life course as an adult. And no, I’m not perfect. And yeah I made mistakes. But a parents job isn’t to insulate the kids from mistakes, it’s to help them make good choices and have the courage to learn from mistakes.
My friends blog has a lot of great info, Carla.
http://wineandmarble.com/
I don’t agree with everything she say, but she raises good points!
LB
Thanks for the link. I am sorry you went through that. ALL things can be made legalistic. ALL things can be twisted. :(
Well I actually didn’t – my parents were awesome and relatively lenient (compared to quiverfull). I saw friends who went through it though.
Ahhhhhhh friends. Sorry.
;) Ayup. Yes ma’am. Just friends thankfully.
WOW!!! I had to be away for a couple of days but WOW!! I don’t watch reality TV, don’t have time or inclination to.
Carla, God bless you and thank you for your post on 3-12-14 at 845am.
WOW!!! What an unbelievable amount of criticism on a PROLIFE BLOG regarding Christian young LADIES who are PROLIFE, committed to a pure lifestyle, are in sync with their parents and who will not end up with unwed pregnancies; the Number ONE reason for mutilating, dismembering and murdering unborn babies (which the prolifers who post here say they are vehemently against) . A royal beat down by prolifers of young LADIES who if they stay true to their values will not end up with incurable STDs like Herpes (the gift that keeps on giving), infertility issues from fallopian tube scar tissue due to PID caused by chlamydia or gonorrhea, an incompetent cervix due to treatment to arrest cervical cancer (HPV cervical dysplasia used to be a condition only seen in prostitutes but now is such an epidemic that they want all 9 year old school children to be vaccinated against it), the social issues of poverty due to unwed single parenthood, fatherlessness not to mention the emotional consequences of heartbreak, regret, emotional baggage, distrust, flashbacks, depression, suicide, substance abuse and alcohol abuse, post-abortive depression, PTSD, and spiritual alienation from the God who loves them. Almost sounds like people want them to end up rebellious, promiscuous, devastated, divorced and homosexual (where the rates of physical, emotional, mental, and social problems, along with drug abuse, alcoholism and domestic violence are dramatically higher). Sound like many “prolifers” here feel, ”It will serve them right for having the nerve of being different, not “dating”, being with or dating men”. Whether they belong to a “cult” I don’t really know but I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy or their children the things people have been saying about this family. May God help you and help the nation. May God help and bless the Duggars, who seem to be able to raise their children to high expectations instead of low expectations.
Last thing I think I’ll say on this, for the bloggers who post here and lecture about how everyone ought to ”live and let live” and not be so judgmental regarding pretty much any other type of lifestyle doesn’t it seem ironic the Duggars don’t get a pass about their lifestyle.
ProliferL, if you read the comments, none of us (at least, I know not Jack & I off the top of my head) are advocating promiscuity. No one is doing that. We’re not attacking their desire to remain pure.
We raised some concerns about the women’s mental health and the movement they represent in general.
Aren’t we allowed to have different opinions? I mean, that’s what the comment section is about. We’re just raising a bit of concern about the often damaging mindset they’re being raised in (which is not about purity/saving yourself for marriage – it’s about the *way* that philosophy teaches them to see themselves, men, their parents, and the world).
It’s good that they want to protect themselves. But for those of us who’ve seen the dark side to this movement, is it so bad that we raise a bit of concern?
Prolifer L,
That was a childish comment of yours and you apparently didn’t read a single word that any of us wrote about the Duggar girls. I’m pretty sure most of us like the kids, a lot, even if we’re not fond of Jim Bob and Michelle. I didn’t make a single criticism of the girls.
I’m really honestly sick of this blog, to be honest. Apparently, if you’re not straight, or you’re an atheist, or are anything other than a conservative Christian, you’ll have to endure ridiculous amounts of posts about how unnatural and disgusting you are, but God forbid that anyone criticize abusive conservative/Christian ideologies even when we have seen similar ideologies cause a lot of damage. I guess we should all keep our mouths shut about it so you don’t get offended. Shaming people into keeping their mouths shut is how abusive movements get away with it, so congratulations on contributing to that.
And literally zero people said that anyone should be promiscuous, and I believe everyone said that the girls have great values. So really, you’re complaining about something that was not said, at all.
No really, I’m actually angry. People make those who criticize Christian cults shut up all the time, because everyone thinks that if you’re criticizing one denomination/church you’re criticizing all of them. Nope, get over yourselves.
I believe I called the girls intelligent and complimented them quite a bit. I didn’t call them unnatural, perverted, mentally ill, etc like you guys quite often call me or people like me, so forgive me if I don’t feel bad for saying “It’s wrong to treat your adult daughters like they are twelve years old”. For reals, people are so hypocritical on this website I can’t stand it. I hate it. At least I haven’t seen people at my church talk and act like this, I’d never go back!
Jack it makes me angry too. And just sad, I don’t know. Like how on earth is it okay to jump down everyone’s throats when you didn’t even read what we were criticizing? And, more to the point, how come we can’t criticize them?
This is a pro-life blog yes, but if you’ve been around here for a day you’d know that not everyone thinks the same – even among pro-lifers.
And it’s horrible to just sit down and shut up about abusive tennents of the Christian faith. That’s how Christianity gets a bad rap, when those of us who see wrong arent’ willing to call it out. Do you know what? Some horrifying stuff happens among Christians. Horrifying. Abuse of all kinds. But we aren’t doing anyone any favors by pretending that churches are perfect. They’re not. They’re populated with people nad sometimes even in the most vigilant, good churches, nasty people slip under the radar. It happens literally everywhere. So why do we all have to play hush-hush when someone speaks up about this kind of stuff? Why are we not allowed to say, you know, that ideology seems super harmful? Which is nicer than what a lot of Christians say about other people.
OMG this is why I want my kids to take philosophy and debate classes – to be able to take, hear, and give criticisms about philosophies without going all ad-hominem on people. Ideas have consequences and it’s a sad day when we refuse to see those consequences. Ugh.
I’m offended at the suggestion that I would be happy if the Duggar girls ended up gay or having STDs or otherwise harmed. On the contrary, I worry about their well-being as I have said about six hundred times on this post. For goodness sake. And yes the worst thing in the world you can be is gay, again, always love seeing that.
And yes, if you silence people from criticizing Christian groups I consider you directly responsible for the suffering of the victims when the groups you protected hurt people. Full stop. I’ve had people tell me to stop calling the cult I was raised in the a Christian denomination, and I refuse to stop. I don’t consider them Christ followers, not at all, but they certainly were a Christian denomination. I think it’s important to note that not everything calling itself Christian is safe, not everyone calling themselves a Christian will be kind to you, etc. So I will continue to refer to it as Christian and I will continue to criticize movements like Quiverfull, because they cause real damage when not called out, and if no one is calling them out the victims have no chance of knowing it’s possible to leave.
I take criticism quite well actually Jack coming from a huge family. I am indeed imperfect, a wretched sinner saved by grace, a lot of things but a hypocrite is not one of them. What I was saying maybe not stated delicately enough, was is there really a need on a prolife blog where we are supposed to be upholding the right to life and eliminating abortions to go after young ladies who have chosen to live an pure lifestyle? Who obviously if they hold to their beliefs won’t need to have abortions? And if you did not mean to go after them and their families I think Carla and a couple of others would probably disagree- (please Carla let me know if I am wrong, it won’t be the first or last time). After a very positive article about the girls interview and them writing a book, the very first comment that was posted was Carla posting that she wanted to buy their book for her daughter, a couple of people agreed and the next 60 post were mostly a dressing down of their parents, , their upbringing, their religion (which like I stated I don’t know whether it is a cult). I am not even address the “cult” stuff, that to me is a whole different issue but their pure lifestyle which is the antithesis of promoting abortion and what I think the main point of the article was in the first place.
I did read a few positive comments by Jack and others but most of it was negative (if someone had written stuff about my kids like this I would have considered it mostly a beat down maybe you would not). My point was not to debate if “Quiverfull” is a cult it was to address the small amount of positive comments from folks but the whole lot of mostly negative comments, I would have thought Jill’s blog was a radical feminist blog not a prolife one.
No one here that I know of, least of all me, has ever questioned that you had a horrible abusive experience growing up in a cult Jack. I actually think you are a phenomenal young man and a great father and do not think of any derogatory terms or names to call you (if I did so a long time ago I do apologize).
I will apologize and take back what I said about it sounded like people wanted the Duggar young ladies to be “promiscuous, devastated” on that one I was wrong. I am sorry for that. I will consider what I was taken to task over and reflect on it. Got to go big day today.
“What I was saying maybe not stated delicately enough, was is there really a need on a prolife blog where we are supposed to be upholding the right to life and eliminating abortions to go after young ladies who have chosen to live an pure lifestyle? ”
You are reading things that aren’t there. I have no issues, at all, with them choosing to live a lifestyle that does not involve premarital sex, promiscuity, or anything like that. I don’t even really mind if they “court” instead of date, though I think there’s issues with that choices.
What I’ve “harshly” criticized is Jim Bob treating his adult daughters like they are children. I think it’s damaging, and I’m seven years younger than the sister that’s closest in age to me, so as a child I watched my sisters get into terrible, miserable marriages because their spouses were basically chosen for them and they had no experience or training in how to recognize abusive or controlling people. I can imagine the Duggar girls thinking it’s normal if their husband goes through their text messages, or tells them what friends they are supposed to have, etc., because that’s what they have been taught is loving behavior. Control is not loving behavior in a marriage, and I don’t believe that they’ve been taught to recognize that.
And I’ve been positive about the girls. I think they are great. I particularly like Jill and Jessa. I just don’t think that they’ve been taught healthy things. That’s not a criticism on them as people
“do not think of any derogatory terms or names to call you (if I did so a long time ago I do apologize).”
It’s more the general criticizing and name calling of people of certain demographics in general (that I belong to), but there’s been name-calling directly towards me as well (not by you I don’t believe). I did generalize there so I am sorry about that. My issue is that people spend countless hours criticizing lifestyles/ideologies that they don’t like (and they have the right to do that, don’t get me wrong) and then they freak out if someone criticizes a lifestyle that they personally agree with.
I accept your apology. I never wish bad on anyone, really, that’s one criticism that can’t be applied to me.
“ My issue is that people spend countless hours criticizing lifestyles/ deologies that they don’t like (and they have the right to do that, don’t get me wrong) and then they freak out if someone criticizes a lifestyle that they personally agree with.”
I know someone who does this quite often….
“I know som eone who does this quite often….”
You’re not subtle. And if you ever bothered to read my comments (which most of you don’t, it seems, you put words in my mouth I don’t say), I get mad when people criticize people unfairly, all the time, and in ridiculous and hurtful ways. Normal criticisms like the ones against Quiverfull on this thread don’t bother me. No one called the Duggar girls any names, and the only name Jim Bob was called was “control freak” which is pretty mild if not particularly nice. Compare that to other “lifestyles” that are criticized and you’ll see the difference if you open your eyes.
I’m one of those “four-eyes” people Jack, and I am hyperopic at that :)
Yes, your drive-bys are really clever.
And the way you whine at others for voicing opinions that do not match yours, is not clever at all :)
Jack doesn’t whine at people who voice other opinions…. He’s just voicing another opinion.
In his March 14, 2014 at 12:33 pm comment Jack called Prolifer L’s comment childish. So please tell me LibertyBelle if that is not whining. I considered how he summed up Prolifer L in my March 17, 2014 at 10:12 am not so friendly response. Hope this helps to clarify…
BTW, Prolifer L made a lot of sense in her (I think) comment Jack was referring to. If he does not agree, there is no need to call anyone childish.
A few times Jack has not treated his elders very well on this blog. That’s not cool at all. Had to get this off my chest, thanks….
Are we having another “I don’t like Jack” thread? A’ight.
I shouldn’t have called Pro-Lifer L’s comment “childish”. I was annoyed that people misread what I and LibertyBelle were saying so incredibly. I get tired of being told I support things I don’t or that I said things I didn’t. Having your own opinion on the Duggars is fine, but I’m seriously over people telling me what I said or support when it’s not true.
And I don’t care about “elders”, I don’t think people deserve respect just because they are older than me. People deserve respect if they earn it. Period. Not because they were born before I was.
No, we’re not. I was responding to LibertyBelle with my assessment of that particular response and nothing more.
My culture tought me to respect my elders. Disagreement is allowed in a respectful manner.
So what you are saying is that if you disagree with someone’s comment, its automatically equal to disrespect?
My culture taught me that “respect for elders” is code for letting people older than you treat you like garbage because they have power over you. We will have to agree to disagree on that one.
And no, disagreement isn’t disrespectful. Putting words in people’s mouths is disrespectful though.
Context is everything Jack, so I disgaree with your code analogy.
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Thomas no I don’t think it’s whining. I’m honestly not going to go back and nitpick comments that can be taken different ways. I think you’re unfairly harsh to Jack. Why don’t you think I sound whiny?
And Jack is an adult. So am I. Respecting your elders does not mean kowtowing to them and listening to everything they say and letting them get away with bad ideology or, in ProliferL’s case, an unfair and one-sided rant (I think we both respectfully set him/her right in that we weren’t all bashing the Duggars and throwing condoms at them). Old people can be wrong and we dont ‘have to agree just cause we’re young.
We’re in a comment section anyway.
People older than you do not treat you like garbage on this blog Jack. That’s what I meant by context. And if you think they are, than in my humble opinion you’re way off….
Read your comment before I posted mine to Jack LibertyBelle.
One question: do you think that Prolifer L treated Jack like garbage?
You know don’t even go there with the respect your elders thing. Now I’m really, really angry.
This mentality of only politely and docilely standing up for yourself is so damaging and creates the perfect storm for abuse. And then for years and years of denial of abuse. *that* is why Jack and I get mad about things like the Quiverfull and people insinuating that our disagreement and concern *for* the Duggar girls is actually just cause we don’t like authority or cause we hope the Duggar girls go wild or that we don’t like what they have to say. That is so freaking insulting. Read the comments! We’re concerned *for* the Duggar girls and, I think, voiced our concern quite civilly here.
This just makes me really really mad. Gah.
I’d have to go back and read ProliferL’s comment. But I have seen Jack being mistreated here, yes. I don’t know the ages of people here. But this isn’t a playground; we’re all adults here.
Dude Thomas, I wasn’t saying that Pro-Lifer L was treating me like garbage, though she did misunderstand and I was rather insulted by it. I just said in general that the “respect for elders” thing is just used to make people shut up when they try to stand up for themselves. That’s my opinion, we can agree to disagree. And people do treat me like garbage on this blog on ocassion. So there.
And you’re the one who, for the millionth time, made it about me instead of my opinions. And now you’ll accuse me of whining or making it all about me or something. Whatevs. I don’t really know why I rub you the wrong way so badly but I wish you could chill out.
And I don’t think this was a big deal at all. Pro-Lifer L made her comment, we said something back (maybe a little testy because it is annoying being misrepresented), and it was all good. I don’t get why you have to make everything about trying to make me look or feel bad or whatever you try to do.
People who are older are not always right. That makes me so angry. This ‘sit down and shut up because you’re young’ mentality is so dangerous and damaging. It gives cover for abusers. It guilts innocent kids into suppressing crap that happens because they think speaking about it will only be dismissed or because it would be seen as disrespectful.
Okay I need to breathe and leave. I’m seriously really upset right now.
Here I was commenting on the childish thing and all of the sudden it blew up. Oops sorry I went that route.
I did not make it about you for the millionth time… We all make it about each other’s comments Jack. You single out people all the time. When I did this just now, oops cannot do that to Jack. How dared I?
Let’s agree to disagree and move on…
Do you really not see any difference between scolding me like I’m a child and telling me to respect my elders, and taking issue with a view I hold?
I didn’t even call Pro-Lifer L childish, I just said that was a childish comment.
Almost nobody sees the Duggars as they really are. When somebody isn’t smiling or is acting up a bit, the scene gets edited out or shot again.
As for the four oldest girls here, they are trying to sell a book. This will not necessarily be any more honest than any other self-portrayal of the family.
We don’t really see the Duggar ‘family,’ really – we see the overly-controlled patriarchy, in parts, and we often get a sense of the cultlike operations.
Some kids will tolerate such an environment, but when you are talking about 20 kids, then it is a sure thing that quite a few of them will not. Anything except smiling and “being joyful” is seen as disrespectful and disobedient, and as if you are shaming your parents.
The Duggar kids are trapped in a fishbowl, whether or not the cameras are rolling. Practically from birth, their lives are excessively scripted, with no room for anything but conforming to the expectations of their parents.
The Duggars are friends of Bill Gothard, and are involved with his “Institutes for Basic Life Principles.” Now if there is any doubt about “cult” stuff, doubt no longer – there is creepy and kooky stuff enough here to satisfy any rational person on that matter.
Gothard used to have an Indiana group home for delinquent children, until it was shut down under allegations of child abuse. There were “prayer closets,” where kids were locked in until they “got their mind right” by ‘finding their way back to grace through prayer.’
Gothard also runs camps for “problem children” where the attempt is made to simply physically and mentally beat disobedience out of children. When Josh Duggar was acting up a bit (and this is truly not much, considering) a few years ago, he was sent to one camp. He returned very subdued.
The Duggars have admitted they use ‘blanket training.’ This is where you put a toddler or pre-schooler on a blanket, and if they move off the blanket, you spank them, and tell them to be quiet and not to leave the blanket. Eventually the kid learns to stay there, due to fear of what will happen if they move. That is the aim – then the parents or older kids can do other chores besides watching the little ones. It’s simply not good for kids – they need to explore and move, to learn about things and “be themselves.”
The Duggars follow the teachings of Michael and Debi Pearl. Their book, ‘To Train Up a Child,‘ includes the following (page 49):
If you are just beginning to institute training on an already rebellious child, who runs from discipline and is too incoherent to listen, then use whatever force is necessary to bring him to bay. If you have to sit on him to spank him then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring and are unmoved by his wailing. Defeat him totally. Accept no conditions for surrender. No compromise. You are to rule over him as a benevolent sovereign. Your word is final.
I would say that almost all the things the Duggars do are bad for some children, and that some of the things the Duggars fo are bad for all children.
I also think that one day some of the kids will break free enough to tell us how things really were.
“The Duggars have admitted they use ‘blanket training.’ This is where you put a toddler or pre-schooler on a blanket, and if they move off the blanket, you spank them, and tell them to be quiet and not to leave the blanket. Eventually the kid learns to stay there, due to fear of what will happen if they move. That is the aim – then the parents or older kids can do other chores besides watching the little ones. It’s simply not good for kids – they need to explore and move, to learn about things and “be themselves.””
Well it’s not just “not good for kids”, it’s flat out abusive like hitting babies and toddlers until they are too afraid to move always is. But a quick look at google just gives me unreliable sources on this, do you have a source that proves they supported this and used it themselves? And the Pearl stuff? I hate the Pearl’s book and think it’s just a written manual to abuse your children, but I’ve not heard the Duggars talk about it and I can’t find anything that says they support those methods.
I’ve seen Michelle Duggar advocate the “To Train Up a Child” book before, a few years back. The Pearls and the book have come under some pretty harsh criticism lately, and you don’t hear much about them now – the Duggars no longer openly talk about it. The book is linked to the killings of three homeschooled children by their parents (three different families).
In 2011, the Duggars had an “Amazon Blitz” where if you bought their book, you got a discount on other publications, including 25% off on http://www.NoGreaterJoy.org stuff. (If ever there was a sadistically named website….)
http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz
At that duggarfamily link, on the right side of the page, about halfway down, you can see the “25% off from:
Features some of the finest in family-friendly, value-based books, audios, videos, and articles on parenting, husband and wife relationships, ministry and more! Materials include, To Train Up A Child, Jumping Ship, Created To Be His Help Meet, Preparing To Be A Help Meet, Only Men, the Good and Evil graphic novel in over 20 languages and a FREE bi-monthly magazine.
I think the blanket training is kept secret, now, too, though it was not in the past:
http://www.chicagonow.com/running-with-a-book-cart/2011/11/are-the-duggars-guilty-of-child-abuse/
They do still
http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2011/11/more-disturbing-things-about-duggars.html
Several mentions of the Duggars and blanket training, as well as connections to the Pearls and Bill Gothard.
Mary says:
March 11, 2014 at 1:48 pm
Amen Jack.
Come on girls, tell it like it is. You’re relegated to being nannies and housemaids while mom and dad enjoy trips to NYC and Puerto Rico. They produce the kids, you take care of them.
Every aspect of your lives are rigidly controlled so its hardly possible for you to even be around men without Daddy D breathing down your necks. Heck, when was the last time you just went out with girlfriends to shop or have lunch?
Did anyone really believe Daddy D would let Jill become a nurse? No way would he ever let her out of his control. ITYS my friends.
Sorry ladies, but you’ll remain the household drudges until Daddy D decides to marry you off. Guess you have no other choice than to make the best of it.
What a waste of so much potential.
++++
So perfectly said, Mary. It’s truly a cult in action.
How is the Duggar household not run as a cult? There is a dogma, a systematic program of indoctrination in it, no tolerance for thought outside of that dogma, a very high degree of control over the individual, manipulation and exploitation of the individual, etc. – it’s all there.
Even aside from that, the older kids are forced to raise the younger ones. This is not good for any of the kids.
I agree with Henry L. With that many kids, there will be some that will tell us how it really was, eventually. There are plenty of testimonials online from people who were raised in similar families.
By the definition of the supposed cult the commenters above aspouse, I guess every single family unit on this Earth could fit its parameters. Parents control and dictate mores to their children 24/7. I guess the problem here is that some do not agree with the Duggar parenting, period. Oh well, tough for those that don’t.
These girls appear very well adjusted, accepting of their realities and themselves, and have very clear objectives and purpose. What’s more have not been harmed or mistreated or exposed to dysfunction in any way, shape or form. That is all that matters.
I took care of my younger sister too when I was about 6 or 7 years old. It was the norm in Eastern Europe to promote this type of sibling responsibility at the appropriate developmental level. So I guess my parents were bad parents to some of you because I changed my sister’s diapers and prepared meals for her when I was 7 and she was 2. HAHA.
Not too long ago I stated that its best not to comment on anyone else’s parenting style. Why? Well, none of us know how our children will turn out, even with our best intentions and parenting. So please, for your sake as a parent stop this ridiculous comparison to a cult and spend time evaluating your own parenting. You may find some surprises there…
LibertyBelle: I have seen Jack being mistreated here, yes. I don’t know the ages of people here. But this isn’t a playground; we’re all adults here.
Jack is a young whippersnapper! : )
TR: By the definition of the supposed cult the commenters above espouse, I guess every single family unit on this Earth could fit its parameters. Parents control and dictate mores to their children 24/7.
Thomas, I gotta say – no they do not, not to the extent the Duggars go. Most are not even remotely close.
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These girls appear very well adjusted, accepting of their realities and themselves, and have very clear objectives and purpose. What’s more have not been harmed or mistreated or exposed to dysfunction in any way, shape or form.
Granted that we have no way of knowing how much or how little harm has been done, exactly, and furthermore that there’s no way for anybody to know that, at this point in time. But, Thomas, you are making an unsupported statement there, bigtime. –The latter sentence; underlining seems not to be working.
It often looks that way with similar families or overt cults, and often later we find out that incredible harm was done.
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I took care of my younger sister too when I was about 6 or 7 years old. It was the norm in Eastern Europe to promote this type of sibling responsibility at the appropriate developmental level. So I guess my parents were bad parents to some of you because I changed my sister’s diapers and prepared meals for her when I was 7 and she was 2. HAHA.
No – one thing like that in no way means your parents were “bad parents.” Your parents were also not like the Duggars, overall.
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Not too long ago I stated that its best not to comment on anyone else’s parenting style.
And I pretty much agree, Thomas, but when there is the whole package of the things the Duggars do, and the extent to which they take them, then there is a prominent and pervasive pattern that occurs in such families, and to pretend that it can’t be present in one such family is just plain crazy.
“By the definition of the supposed cult the commenters above aspouse, I guess every single family unit on this Earth could fit its parameters. Parents control and dictate mores to their children 24/7. I guess the problem here is that some do not agree with the Duggar parenting, period. Oh well, tough for those that don’t. ”
No, you’ve completely misunderstood. A healthy family unit doesn’t involve this much control and dictation to adult members. It doesn’t involve sending your child who is acting like a normal teen to a “discipline camp”. It doesn’t involve picking your adult children’s partners for them and controlling their lives to the extent that they cannot get education or jobs that they wish to have. Cults aren’t the best defined thing, which is why I tend to say “cult-like” rather than “cult” for things that I think throw off red-flags. And I was raised in a similar environment, you treat me as if I’m young and stupid but I actually have a lot of experience with rigid religious and parental control and I am telling you that it’s not healthy.
“Not too long ago I stated that its best not to comment on anyone else’s parenting style. ”
Ah yes, that’s how people ignore just flat out abusive things because somehow being a parent makes you immune to doing terrible things. Nope. If I think something is abusive I’ll call it out, someone needs to say something when kids are involved.
And I’m actually completely certain that the Duggars love their children, very much, and want to do right by them. But it doesn’t mean that they are doing right by them.
Thomas, if you saw a parent putting their two year old on a blanket and smacking him until he was too afraid to move, would you consider that a “parenting style” and ignore it, or would you try to intervene for that baby? I am not convinced that the Duggars supported such methods, btw, I am just using it as an example of parenting methods that are objectively damaging and should be condemned.
“So I guess my parents were bad parents to some of you because I changed my sister’s diapers and prepared meals for her when I was 7 and she was 2. HAHA. ”
No I wouldn’t call them “bad parents” for a simple thing like that. You’re picking out bits and pieces and getting upset, and failing to see that we’re talking about the whole picture here.
I do hope you were supervised while cooking at seven though.
All I am saying Doug and Jack is that no one here knows what goes on. All this talk about cult or cult-like is just conjecture at best. And I am still not convinced that there was any abuse or mistreatment going on. Control yes. But is this control ultimately detrimental to the girls remains a big question mark for now.
I’ll never consider a relationship where a 21-year-old has to get and maintain permission to text a boy a healthy situation. Full stop.
Control can definitely be abusive.
This is amazing. A thread that is supposed to promote the Duggar girls for their stance on purity all of the sudden has someone approving those comments that negate these girl and their parents. I swear I will never understand how some people think….
Because some of us don’t think “never spend time with men, ever” and “Daddy should go through your messages and boyfriend for you, silly girl, you’ll never be a grown up until he passes you off to another man” is a thing that should be promoted.
The cooking lessons came in handy Jack. When I became a parent, changing diapers was like second nature to me too ;)
Just to respond to the scenario of a 2-year old being smacked. I would, of course intervene. YES. I do however note that you acknowledge there is no information for us to think that the Duggars supported or engaged in such methods. So all this is again just empty talk on our part…
TR: All I am saying Doug and Jack is that no one here knows what goes on. All this talk about cult or cult-like is just conjecture at best. And I am still not convinced that there was any abuse or mistreatment going on. Control yes. But is this control ultimately detrimental to the girls remains a big question mark for now.
Thomas, yes, we don’t know for sure. My feeling – for what it’s worth – is that with so many kids, it’s pretty much a sure thing that the Duggar household is really bad for at least some of the kids. I think that in the future, we’ll see some of them speaking out about just how bad. We will see….
You not being convinced of abuse is fine. That’s different from you flatly stating that “What’s more (these girls) have not been harmed or mistreated or exposed to dysfunction in any way, shape or form.”
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All this talk about cult or cult-like is just conjecture at best.
This I have to disagree with. Granted that we don’t know how the kids are being affected. But that the family is cult-like is undeniable.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/02/carefully-scripted-lives-my-concerns-about-the-duggars.html
–Thoughts from somebody who grew up in a similar family.
Not too long ago I stated that its best not to comment on anyone else’s parenting style.
Doug to Thomas R’s comment above: “And I pretty much agree, Thomas, but when there is the whole package of the things the Duggars do, and the extent to which they take them, then there is a prominent and pervasive pattern that occurs in such families, and to pretend that it can’t be present in one such family is just plain crazy.”
Doug, every family engages in prominent and pervasive pattern, so that is a given. The extent to which we judge looking from the outside in not having all the facts is what I take issue with. All I am cautioning about, is not to jump to conclusions and defer judgment. For all you know, these girls lives can be better than yours and mine combined. I wil stand by my statement that there is no evidence that these girls have been abused, mistreated, neglected or experienced any more of a “dysfunction” that some of us growing up. Here’s hoping the tell all book you so want to read from one of these girls comes out soon :)
“This I have to disagree with. Granted that we don’t know how the kids are being affected. But that the family is cult-like is undeniable.”
I think this is where stuff is getting lost in translation. Saying that the Duggars run their family in a way that is cult-like isn’t necessarily saying that the kids are being abused (physically or sexually at least, I do believe growing up in a cult-like environment is emotionally abusive), that the Duggars are bad people, or that the kids are going to end up terrible. Plenty of the families in the (undeniable, textbook) cult I grew up in were quite loving, never beat their kids, and some of them grew up quite well-adjusted. But that didn’t mean they didn’t grow up in a cult. And it doesn’t mean that cults are not damaging. Heck, you even get well-adjusted Holocaust survivors! That doesn’t mean that concentration camps were not bad! Some things are objective, like the fact that the Duggar family and the Quiverfull movement does share a lot of characteristics with cults. This is fact.
Like… the Amish are a cult, people hate it when I say that but it’s true. Most Amish families are loving, and the kids turn out okay (though I’ve heard some major horror stories there, too, for some kids that grew up Amish). But whether or not the Amish cult is relatively benign as compared to the old Children of God cult or the Branch-Davidians isn’t really the issue.
TR: Here’s hoping the tell all book you so want to read from one of these girls comes out soon.
Don’t know about “soon,” Thomas. Looks to me like everybody’s still so connected, financially, anyway, that they’re not free to tell the world that stuff – if there is stuff to tell in that vein. Maybe there’s really nothing all that big and bad going on – we will see.
(I also don’t think you really hope that such a book comes out….)
Old Jack: Like… the Amish are a cult, people hate it when I say that but it’s true. Most Amish families are loving, and the kids turn out okay (though I’ve heard some major horror stories there, too, for some kids that grew up Amish).
J, there is ‘Rumspringa,’ though – a period of time beginning around age 16, when Amish kids have considerable freedom to “find themselves” and try other ways of life, if desired, before deciding whether or not to join the Amish church themselves. I don’t see anything like that happening in the Duggar household.
It’s gotten overblown in the non-Amish public consciousness, lately. It’s not usually “Girls (or boys) Gone Wild,” – they’re not all doing drugs and having all kinds of sex. But some are.
In general you do find some much more “mainstream” and even extreme behavior during that time. Some kids get cars and driver’s licenses. Or even if it’s ‘horse and buggy’ – you’ll see some buggies decked-out with big stereo systems and speakers. : P
The degree of freedom varies with the area, and it’s partially dependent on the nature of the people at that age at that time.
“J, there is ‘Rumspringa,’ though – a period of time beginning around age 16, when Amish kids have considerable freedom to “find themselves” and try other ways of life, if desired, before deciding whether or not to join the Amish church themselves. I don’t see anything like that happening in the Duggar household.”
Everyone brings up Rumspringa as if it makes the cult not a cult. It doesn’t, if we’re talking about the very traditional Amish sects that still hold to “shunning” and such like that. If you take the vows and become a full member of the community, you will be shunned if you don’t follow that way of life. People act like being cut off from everyone you’ve ever known is not a big deal, but it really, really is. One of the hallmarks of cults is being unable to leave without severe consequences, traditional Amish communities certainly hit that in spades.
And plus, a year when you are sixteen to experience the “outside world” doesn’t negate the previous sixteen years of indoctrination and subjugation. I imagine it’s hard to understand if you’ve never lived through anything cult-like, but it really does warp your brain and make it extremely difficult to adjust to anything outside the small world your cult made for you.
People see the Amish as quaint and cute, I don’t. I don’t think they are that bad, but there are certainly a lot of issues there that people gloss over (they love hiding their rapists, for one, because they don’t believe Amish people should get outside authorities involved in Amish business) .
Doug, I’m younger than he is! lol so I’m a whippersnapper as well, then?
Lol yeah LibertyBelle I always forget you’re closer to my age than not. I think it’s because you’re much more capable of being mature in stressful conversations lol.
I have noticed a big gap in opinions on social issues between the older pro-lifers and younger ones around here, even when the young pro-lifers are strongly religious. It’s interesting to me.
“(I also don’t think you really hope that such a book comes out….)”
Why wouldn’t I Doug? I have nothing to gain or lose in this regard. You guys (and some gals LOL) think that just because I caution everyone not to jump to conclusions and examine Duggar parenting issues with a wider stroke of the brush, you think that I am for the Duggar parenting or lifestyle? Oh please…
When I suggested that some examine their own parenting instead of jumping to wild conclusions about the Duggar girls and negating them, it must’ve truly touched a nerve….
Thomas I think he meant because he assumes you care about the Duggar kids too and don’t want them to be abused…
DLPL yeah! It is weird. My partner and I talk about that a lot actually – how even as Christians, the younger generation has a huge gap on social issues from older generations. Interesting, indeed.
Um am I? lol I don’t know if I’m more mature than you but I’ve got more distractions (mobile baby who likes to eat paper and cords) and had to leave this thread earlier due to triggers and was breathing into a brown paper bag lol. But I hate confrontation too so I try to make everybody happy which rarely works haha.
Doug was the one actually who proposed the a book may come out Libertybelle. There are two comments of his before mine that mentioned this very plainly and he even stated we will see.
LibertyBelle: Doug, I’m younger than he is! lol so I’m a whippersnapper as well, then?
Dear lord, how do you even reach the keyboard, then? : P
Yes, us old fogies can sense gamines and gamins and such….. ; )
Seriously, LibertyBelle, I think Jack is “old” for his years, with his experiences and him having kids.
TR: every family engages in prominent and pervasive pattern
Thomas, we just disagree on this. In most families, there is nothing as prominent, and certainly not as pervasive, as what the Duggars do. It is simply an extreme amount of constant constraint.
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Doug: I also don’t think you really hope that such a book comes out….”
TR: Why wouldn’t I Doug? I have nothing to gain or lose in this regard.
I only meant that the book could well prove me right. ; )
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You guys (and some gals LOL) think that just because I caution everyone not to jump to conclusions and examine Duggar parenting issues with a wider stroke of the brush, you think that I am for the Duggar parenting or lifestyle? Oh please… When I suggested that some examine their own parenting instead of jumping to wild conclusions about the Duggar girls and negating them, it must’ve truly touched a nerve….
Well, this thread has been pretty active indeed. I do agree that we don’t really know how the Duggar kids are all being affected, and how they will end up.
Jack: Everyone brings up Rumspringa as if it makes the cult not a cult. It doesn’t, if we’re talking about the very traditional Amish sects that still hold to “shunning” and such like that. If you take the vows and become a full member of the community, you will be shunned if you don’t follow that way of life. People act like being cut off from everyone you’ve ever known is not a big deal, but it really, really is. One of the hallmarks of cults is being unable to leave without severe consequences, traditional Amish communities certainly hit that in spades.
Jack – true, and I don’t mean to say that the Amish are uncultlike. But it is unusual to see such freedom – as Rumspringa – being granted, in the case of a cult, and I certainly can’t believe that any such freedom is granted within the Duggar household.
“Jack – true, and I don’t mean to say that the Amish are uncultlike. But it is unusual to see such freedom – as Rumspringa – being granted, in the case of a cult, and I certainly can’t believe that any such freedom is granted within the Duggar household.”
Well, yeah, I do see your point. I see it as calculated more than anything. If people are allowed a controlled “rebellion” they might be less likely to leave later, maybe. And like I said, it’s not really freedom. You’re so inculcated by the time you’re sixteen, if you grew up there, that the “freedom” can seem overwhelming and unnatural, and you end up running back to the “safety” of what you’ve been brainwashed into seeing as normal. I absolutely hated being at my home and it was pretty much unbearable, and I knew I could run off when I was as young as twelve, but it took me until seventeen to actually leave for good. For some reason I was more comfortable in the abusive environment then trying to navigate the world completely alone when I was never taught how to do anything outside of the cult. It’s extremely difficult, no matter how awful it is, to give up everything you’ve been raised in.
“Seriously, LibertyBelle, I think Jack is “old” for his years, with his experiences and him having kids. ”
Lulz you have no idea how immature I am because I censor half my comments! Haha!
Lulz you have no idea how immature I am because I censor half my comments! Haha!
Dude. I do the same thing. Which is probably why you think I’m “mature” and often forget that I’m your age bahaha
Doug! Are you against shorties?! Cause I am a little thing. ;) But yeah I think Jack is more mature than he gives himself credit for.
Jack: Lulz you have no idea how immature I am because I censor half my comments! Haha.
I don’t think that “being mature” means never having silly or even outrageous moments. : )
In any case, for some of us – and here I allow that there may conceivably be some gender bias, i.e. it applies to a higher percentage of males – it never ends. My wife, married to a 55 year old guy, is no stranger to saying, “You’re SUCH a child!”
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Are you against shorties?! Cause I am a little thing.
No, no, no, LibertyBelle, heavens no, and I truly hope I never sound like that – about anything.
Anyway, my wife is 5′ 0″ and I better not be against shorties. ; )
She got a hilarious fortune from a fortune-cookie last year, one with a typographical error:
“You will have an exciting event in your life shorty.”
I was being facetious! ;)
LOL I love it!!