Wendy Wright: Worst person in the world!
Congratulations to my friend, Wendy Wright. Liberal Keith Olbermann of liberal MSNBC recently proclaimed Wendy, president of Concerned Women for America, the Worst Person in the World!
See Keith Olbermann’s diss of Wendy beginning at 1:23:
Explained the CWA website….
In a recent appearance on Fox News, Wendy pointed out that the loudest proponents of that abysmal failure labeled “comprehensive sex education” are the most likely to benefit financially when children and teens become pregnant or contract sexually transmitted diseases.
For example, Planned Parenthood, which receives its lion’s share of profit from abortion, has a vested interest in ensuring that young girls become pregnant and have abortions. It’s a classic case of “the fox watching the hen house.”
For that pro-abort bloggers went balistic and Olbermann ballyhooed.
I take pleasure in pointing out that the impetus for this story was that the Democrat-controlled Congress, for all its blather, kept abstinence funding intact for FY’08.
In fact, they left every single pro-life rider on appropriations bills intact, including the Mexico City Policy, which disallows U.S. international $$ from going to promote or commit abortions.
They did increase Title X, the Planned Parenthood subsidy program, by $17 million to almost $300 million.
But the situation looked far bleaker earlier this year. Democrats simply blinked at President Bush’s veto threat.
[HT: LifeNews.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
We need more Wendys in the world. Congradulations indeed!
Comprehensive sex ed is not an abysmal failure. It can’t be an abysmal failure- it’s never been uniformly implemented.
On a different note, I just HAVE to bring up Brittney Spears. What is WRONG with her? Has she just gone completely bonkers?
CWA should get worst person in the world honors every day
@ Erin
Spear, prof that having children does not make you a responsible adult.
While Keith over exaggerated by a huge margin, it simply doesn’t make sense to say that it has been a “huge failure”. As Erin pointed out it has never been uniformly implemented, but abstinence only education has and it has failed.
People who have taken abstinence pledges are less likely to use birth control when they do have premarital sex. When Penn and Teller confronted the leader of an abstinence-only promoting company about the statistic, the leader could not gather a response.
We’ve talked about this many times, but again I err on the side of reality. People will always have premarital sex, and we should let them know how to be responsible with it.
PiP, when you marry and your husband goes on a business trip, will you pack him a condom – just in case?
This paradoxical situation: in which the health providers attempt to lower the demand for their services through prevention, applies to virtually all health care providers, not just PP.
It’s the same when the cardiologist recommends a low-fat diet, or a dermatologist recommends staaying out of the sun.
ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
when you marry and your husband goes on a business trip, will you pack him a condom – just in case?
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 14
:claps hands: GOOD ONE, Jill!
Jill–
those are two quite different concepts. No use equating one with the other.
I’m so proud. Wendy is going to be the keynote speaker for the Dallas Rally and March for Life this Saturday.
go to http://www.prolifedallas.org
This makes her appearance all the more special.
Pip….good answer to Jill’s question. Not.
No Elizabeth, its true. Comprehensive sex =/= promiscuity, adultery, etc, to imply so is ridiculous.
That is not what *I* interpreted Jill’s question to mean at all.
She meant, at least I think so..that people cheat on their spouses..you can’t stop them from cheating..so why not just accept it and give him a condom? At least that’s what I interpreted her statement as..which is basically the same thing they’re saying to teens. “We know you’re going to do it anyway, so here you go.”
And, seeing as how government studies have found AO sex ed books to be wildly inaccurate in many areas, (except for something like 1 or 2 books) there certainly needs to be a reform in AO if its kept.
Its ridiculous that federal dollars go to this strategy when it has obviously failed. When something fails, you try a new approach. Repeating the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is insanity
I love Olbermann SO much…
I have to watch him every day, and now he does the color commentary for NBC Sunday Night Football.
His last book was womnderful, and his new one was #12 on the New York Times best seller list yesterday.
I want him…
Planned Parenthood, which receives its lion’s share of profit from abortion, has a vested interest in ensuring that young girls become pregnant and have abortions. It’s a classic case of “the fox watching the hen house.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh yeah, THAT happens.
I know people who will tell you that Catholic clergy forbid birth control so they’ll always have small children to molest. I think those people are nutcakes as well.
Ok, so telling teens simply not to, the end, is going to completely protect them? Nope, same goes for cheating, its true, but they are completely unrelated issues.
Comprehensive is about knowing ALL the options, the consequences of ALL the actions, and knowing what is available on pregnancy, stds, birth control, contraceptives, and abstinence. Only giving part of any story is ridiculous and makes no sense, same goes for sex.
Dan,
Right on.
How many here have stayed abstinent until marriage? Or are virgins right now? Let’s do our own little poll right here.
pip, I am a virgin, as for whether it stays that way, God only knows.
I dont intend to have sex until I and my partner are ready for it. If my partner wants to wait, Ill wait, if they’re ready and Im not, I wont have it, but if we are both ready and willing, I will.
Dan, I am in the same place.
LOL Laura
PiP, my analogy is just fine. You won’t want your husband to have sex outside of marriage, but in case that bar is too high – because so many married men do – you need to pack a condom in his wallet.
Hey Jill, were you abstinent until marriage? I’m taking a poll.
She had her kids to protect herself against breast cancer then went right back to abstinence.
Well that’s my theory.
PIP, after your poll maybe you should take another one and ask how many of those that didn’t wait wish they had? By the experience of my friends (and unfortunately myself) I’d say that number is just as high.
We all knew better when we were younger and thought we were ready. However now I know just how big a mistake that was. Abstinence education, in part, is trying to get kids to realize that mistake before they make it.
I had sex before marriage. I don’t regret having sex, just who it was with. I would have chosen someone else. I don’t think we would still be together, but I regret not having sex with him.
Well, I’m staying abstinent until marriage NOW..sex really just complicates things IMO.
So NOW I’m waiting for marriage..does that count? (It’s been over 2 years sooo I think it should)
I know this is a weird question but… do you at all regret having sex before marriage even though you have your beautiful daughter from it?
Jess, that is a loaded question..so I will write a thought out response after I put my beautiful daughter to bed..at around 9ish k?
Ok, I’ll see you then!
Thanks for taking it seriously.
Here’s something I have been pondering.
You guys often claim that we (especially the Catholic Church) is obsessed with sex…
But don’t you find it odd, that we are the ones saying it’s healthy in the right context, but until then we can live without it…
And you guys are the ones that say it is SO important, that teaching abstinence is unrealistic, killing babies that result from it is okay, rationalizing your responsibility for getting pregnant to begin with, even making television shows devoted to it…
Who is it that really has a problem putting sex in perspective.
Us, who can take it or leave it, depending on the circumstances, or you guys, that must have it at all costs?
So NOW I’m waiting for marriage..does that count? (It’s been over 2 years sooo I think it should)
Posted by: Elizabeth at January 14, 2008 7:16 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’ve been abstinent since Saturday morning. Does that count?
LOL Jess.
Well Kristen, we can take that in consideration.
So is this what we have so far?
2 right now are virgins that don’t have a specific plan
3 right now did not wait, but some wish they had.
Jill has not yet weighed in.
Elizabeth, on a certain level that counts, but right now I wanna do numbers. After the poll we can discuss the implications.
An interesting thing my sister points out. What would happen if we added masturbation into the abstinence education? Abstinence shouldn’t apply to orgasm. If we stopped being prudish about it and said, “it’s okay to masturbate, it helps with keeping abstinent” would that help numbers at all? That may be something to take in consideration. Right now I’m pretty sure nothing but strict abstinence is encouraged. Something to think about. We need more numbers!
mk, what is your answer?
oops 4 did not wait, forgot Laura since her post was deleted (?)
I don’t have to have sex at all costs.
Maybe it’s because some churches and religious leaders put such an emphasis on women being “saved” from their sins through childbirth, and in effect, sex, and that women who don’t have children can’t be truly close to God. Also that women who enjoy sex or orgasm are evil, that sodomy is evil and even positions other then missionary are evil. It seems like an absurd interest in others personal lives. Also claiming that your hymen is the greatest gift you can give to your husband.
For the record, I lost mine in a spirited game of vollyball.
I had sex before marriage. I don’t regret having sex, just who it was with.
Posted by: Jess at January 14, 2008 7:13 PM
That’s the point Jess. You regret who it was with, as most of us do. Most women, from my experience, say they wish they had waited until marriage because they regret the partners they had before their spouse.
You proved the exact point I was trying to make. It wasn’t about the act, it was about the partner. The act is great when it’s with someone you love and are committed to for life, without that you regret it when you do find that perfect person.
No PIP I don’t regret not waiting.
@ PIP
Masturbation makes abstinence worse for me.
On that note, have I found a fellow feminist on this site? According to Jerry Falwell we are responsible for 9/11. I’m getting ready to defend myself against America’s War on Feminism.
Jess,
Good Lord woman, what church have you been attending?
No, I was not virgin. Yes, I wish I was. If I could do it over again, I would have waited. But I was a bad, bad girl in my 20’s and 30’s…you’ve all heard the story. While I don’t regret where it brought me, I do regret 80% of the life choices I made.
If we stopped being prudish about it and said, “it’s okay to masturbate, it helps with keeping abstinent” would that help numbers at all? That may be something to take in consideration. Right now I’m pretty sure nothing but strict abstinence is encouraged. Something to think about. We need more numbers!
Posted by: prettyinpink at January 14, 2008 7:34 PM
Sorry, PIP. Not that abstinence education is completely pushed by the Church but masturbation is a “no-no” so I don’t think it’d go over real well.
@Kristen
Then I said I would have lost it to someone else, who I didn’t plan on staying with forever, certainly not marrying.
oops 4 did not wait, forgot Laura since her post was deleted (?)
Posted by: prettyinpink at January 14, 2008 7:35 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I didn’t wait. I was 21 and had been with the same guy for almost a year.
(Don’t tell Beverly…)
Hey Pip,
Where’s your picture??? We keep getting videos but no portraits!
@ mk
“Good Lord woman, what church have you been attending?”
No, not from my church but there seems to be a good number of people who believe that. Hisman, for one, is a huge fan of hymen’s and fights adamantly for their protection, only to be sacrificed for the pleasure of their owners husbands on their wedding nights.
Which post of Lauras was deleted?
@Kristen
Then I said I would have lost it to someone else, who I didn’t plan on staying with forever, certainly not marrying.
Posted by: Jess at January 14, 2008 7:46 PM
And how do you know you wouldn’t feel the same way about him? We aren’t talking hypothetically here. You said you regret it and I believe you.
I don’t regret having oral sex with the man I wanted to have sex with. I regret doing everything with the guy I did have sex with. The only reason I had sex with him was because he said he wanted to marry me and have kids with me and a house and buy me a ring and whatever. He was just a wimp though, a pushover, someone I couldn’t respect.
I cheated on him with…ugh…a lot of people. Not intercourse, but everything else. And I don’t regret that.
Jess, first – WAY to much information.
Second are you thinking about what you’re writing? You had sex with him because he said he’d marry you. So obviously you thought you’d be with him forever, most of us do, and most of us don’t realize until it’s too late that it was a mistake.
Third, you “cheated on him with…ugh…a lot of people.” So sex was just “getting even.” Yes, that shows a HUGE amount of maturity. You aren’t exactly helping your cause.
mk, I wouldn’t say were obsessed with sex. Theres a difference between wanting the ability to have sex and all the information about it so all factors way into the decision, versus being told “nope, abstinence, just dont have it.” If people want access to that information so they can make the decision right for them, it should be available.
I didn’t cheat with others to get back at him. I cheated on him because he just wasn’t right for me and yes, I was immature. I now know the difference between real good men and over emotional, super sensitive, ass-kissing boys.
“Masturbation makes abstinence worse for me.
On that note, have I found a fellow feminist on this site? According to Jerry Falwell we are responsible for 9/11. I’m getting ready to defend myself against America’s War on Feminism.”
That’s interesting. I’ve felt the opposite.
I AM a feminist! I did hear about Falwell and I just hope that when he met his maker he learned that lesson. Nothing wrong with feminism. It’s easy to blame everybody else when little is under complete control.
“No, I was not virgin.”
There is 5 to 2 so far.
“Sorry, PIP. Not that abstinence education is completely pushed by the Church but masturbation is a “no-no” so I don’t think it’d go over real well.”
Yes one masturbation realist was fired under the Clinton administration. Why is it a “no-no” by the way? Haven’t gotten a straight answer on that.
“Where’s your picture??? We keep getting videos but no portraits!”
How does this happen?
“Which post of Lauras was deleted?”
Right above my “LOL Laura” post.
Oh another thing, if a guy agrees with you about EVERYTHING then there’s something wrong with him.
OK, have any of you guys ever watched “Jon and Kate PLus 8”? It’s some TLC show with a family that has 8 kids. Like, she had twins, then had sextuplets or something. Holy crap. I don’t know how they could ever handle that. I mean…eight screaming children at once. *shudder* Insanity.
Not married, not a virgin. I am happy with my life and don’t regret either of the people I had sex with.
pip, it counts towards lust and adultery of the mind, essentially, by the Catholic Church.
We (as in a bunch of HS students) were actually debating this issue in a chat room i frequent the other day (on a harry potter fansite chatserver no less, haha, don’t worry, it was a private room, no youngin’s around to hear, er, see.)
@ PIP
Masturbation was a no no because it meant you weren’t knocking anyone up. You needed children back then so anything you did to hinder children was regarded as wrong.
ah yes, i forgot about the “spilling of seed” mentioned in the old testament. They also used to believe it was a limited gift from God I think, so essentially your wasting a limited resource as well
“Not married, not a virgin. I am happy with my life and don’t regret either of the people I had sex with.”
6-2
“it counts towards lust and adultery of the mind, essentially, by the Catholic Church.”
Yes, but again the Church isn’t controlling the country. At least, it shouldn’t be. If the government wants a “just don’t do it” attitude they might as well equip people with “tips.”
“Masturbation was a no no because it meant you weren’t knocking anyone up. You needed children back then so anything you did to hinder children was regarded as wrong.”
Ahh but that was in the days of the “homunculus.” We’ve changed…
homunculus?
The most prolific mother was this Russian woman in the 18th century with 69 kids. A bunch of multiple births.
If babies are a gift from God, what was he thinking?
*twitch* 69 kids? *twitch*
Yes they used to think sperm has little men, homunculuses, inside of them, therefore masturbation was killing millions of little men. It was murder.
Now we know different.
69? That’s crazy.
Only two failed to survive infancy.
Wow, she was set for life after it all eh?
I bet she ended up selling like 50 of them.
69!?!?!
5 is my max. I can’t have more kids than I can count on one hand. Although… I could be persuaded otherwise if my husband were really persuasive or if he knew how to manipulate me really well. But HE will be changing the diapers, thanks. :)
Seriously, though. No more than 5.
PIP: per your post: not married, not a virgin, no regrets.
I meant “per your poll”
“not married, not a virgin, no regrets.”
7-2
how do I post my picture?
pip
imgsrc=”pictureurlhere”> cept with a
go to discussion on the right hand of this page then snap who we are.
Re: the Catholic teaching on masturbation.
It’s an act of self-gratification that is not full sexuality. Namely between a man AND a woman. Obviously for a woman it has nothing to do with “spilling of seed,” but it is just as grave a sin for a woman as a man. It’s outside of a relationship of a man and woman.
I’ve been tempted to post the one of me as a pirate for camp last year here, or the one from last may back when i was still in boyscouts (its me wearing my uniform playing pool), but both are nearly a year old, so yea….
My mom needs to find the camera charger she lost so I can take one! Or I could take one with my phone….hmmm…..
Keith Olberman takes most of his material from liberal blogs and is jealous and obsessed with Bill O’reilly.
The guy is a smug jerk.
ahh thanks
Kristen,
when I asked the “why is it a nono?” I meant in general, why is it a problem when it comes to general education.
Ooh! Fun! I wanna post my picture! How?
I dun get it
I think you just have to email it to Bethany and shell add it
Who cares what the Catholics think?
SoMG that is just ridiculously rude.
“The only reason I had sex with him was because he said he wanted to marry me and have kids with me and a house and buy me a ring and whatever. He was just a wimp though, a pushover, someone I couldn’t respect.
I cheated on him with…ugh…a lot of people.”
I feel bad for your next victim.
Super cool. Grazie.
Jeez, jasper. Thou shalt not judge, eh?
Jasper, you too, rude and uncalled for.
Well Dan, no one seems to care what atheist or agnostics or Muslims or Taoists seem to think about it. I think frankly only Catholics care what Catholics think about this. That being said, I assume there is a high percentage of Catholics on this site.
“Jasper, you too, rude and uncalled for.”
why is that, Jess seems to be un-remorseful for what she did, how do you think it made that guy feel Dan?
@ Jasper
The thing was I thought that was what I was supposed to want. A guy who wanted to marry me and have kids and get a good job… I think I am way too young for that and now I know. One day I suppose I want to settle down but not now. My current bf and I aren’t serious like that. Of course we talk about the future but we also care about adventure and seeing new places and exploring and expanding. He is also a real man who at least treats me like a fellow human being not just a precious doll. I haven’t cheated on him.
“I feel bad for your next victim.”
Oh or did you mean the fact that I eat my boyfriends after sex?
Oh jasper I am unremorseful but he deserved to be treated as such, imo. I told him I was thinking about cheating, I cheated, then I told him I cheated on him and he said he didn’t care, as long as I was still going out with him. Complete push-over butt-kisser.
Jess, what everyone says has an impact, and should matter to an extent, to write off anyone or a group because you dont follow it is just ignorance, at least listen to try and understand.
Jasper, thats between her and the guy, you dont need to call it out or make judgement calls based simply on what you know. Its up to the guy what he feels, maybe he feels he was the jerk, and/or maybe he feels no regret for what game he played, or maybe he does, no one knows.
Keith Olberman takes most of his material from liberal blogs and is jealous and obsessed with Bill O’reilly.
The guy is a smug jerk.
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 8:44 PM
………………………………..
I agree! Both Olberman and O’ Reilly are smug jerks. Shock jocks if you will. I can’t abide either of them.
@ Dan
Yes, you are right, it does have an impact. And it has a bigger impact here because of the religious views of many of the people who post. But at the same time you can’t expect to force your beliefs on others, if we’re talking about the law or what should be the law.
OK, so I don’t post here much, and haven’t been around too long, but I can’t ever seem to resist a chance to overshare personal information! =D
I am 27, not married, and not a virgin. I have absolutely no regrets about any of my relationships or choices I have made. I don’t plan on getting married anytime soon, though I’ve been in my current relationship for 4 years.
I am agnostic and pro life, though I believe I’m quite a bit more liberal than most other pro-lifers on this site.
Jess, true enough about the law, but for somg to just say who cares what catholics think has the same impact for me as if someone were to say who cares what pro choicers/liberals/teens/etc have to think
I’m not judging anbody, I’m just saying that was a very mean, cruel thing that Jess did to that man who was very nice to her. I hope she doesn’t do that again. Jess, are you a Catholic?
“I am 27, not married, and not a virgin. I have absolutely no regrets about any of my relationships or choices I have made.”
8-2
PIP, what are you tallying again??
PIP, after your poll maybe you should take another one and ask how many of those that didn’t wait wish they had? By the experience of my friends (and unfortunately myself) I’d say that number is just as high.
We all knew better when we were younger and thought we were ready. However now I know just how big a mistake that was. Abstinence education, in part, is trying to get kids to realize that mistake before they make it.
Posted by: Kristen at January 14, 2008 7:10 PM
………………………….
Why do you regret having sex before marriage? Did you think that having sex would ensure a marriage? Do you think that getting married ensures sex?
Jasper, as I said, you dont know everything about the situation, and given what Jess has said about it, I dont think its as bad/cruel as youve been saying it is. Clearly the guy was not worthy of her, granted the reaction may not have been the best, but the guy could care less, as long as he got some too it seems like. I cant STAND guys like that.
@ jasper
Yes I am a Catholic I went to Church faithfully every week until about 6 months ago. I would like to be able to go back to church and feel welcome and accepted but I find it hard at the moment. I would appreciate your prayers if you would like to offer them : )
@Dan
Sadly not enough people actually care what women, teens, the elderly, ect have to say.
jasper, care to answer my question?
oh, jasper, who has been abstinent until marriage
“Do you think that getting married ensures sex?”
Hahaha! Not from what I hear!
I always read in Dear Abby about sexless, and worse, intimateness, marriages. It’s a shame. Really it is.
Jess, sadly that statement is true enough
Dan,
you are not helping Jess by OK’ing that behavoir.
“I would like to be able to go back to church and feel welcome and accepted but I find it hard at the moment.”
Why Jess? ….The Church is a bunch of sinners, not a bunch of Saints. That is why we go to church, to ask for forgiveness and pray to be better Christians, you are accepted.
“I would appreciate your prayers if you would like to offer them : )”
Yes, absolutley Jess, I will. God Bless.
“oh, jasper, who has been abstinent until marriage”
I thought it was “who has Not been abstinent until marriage and Doesn’t regret it” ??
@Dan
I know one day I hope to change the way people view the elderly.
@jasper
Thank you.
nope, people have brought that into the conversation per Kristen’s request.
Who is still a virgin/stayed abstinent until marriage and who did not?
So far it is 8 to 2. Some of those 8 regret it, some not.
so jasper, which category do you belong in?
jasper, theres a difference between oking it, and understanding it.
pip, are you and myself the only two so far? or what?
I cant remember, haha
I regret every sexual encounter I ever had before I got married.
My pastor once said not one person he had ever counseled said, “I wish I had slept with more people” on their wedding night.
Abstinence education is taught in our home and in our school district. The bar is set at no sex until you are married. Not because I said so but because God says so. Why treat young people like they are walking hormones and have no self control?? Why set them up? Well I guess PP knows that they are future customers!! Of course! They can wait. I know many that do and still are. Waiting I mean.
My four cents.
wait, vm pip, that was a different question i believe
vm = nvm
I wasn’t a virgin before marriage and I do regret it.
I think this had to do alot with our culture, if I had actually followed church teaching I wouldn’t of had that problem. Luckly I met a good women and started going back to Church.
“Do you think that getting married ensures sex?”
Hahaha! Not from what I hear!
I always read in Dear Abby about sexless, and worse, intimateness, marriages. It’s a shame. Really it is.
Posted by: Jess at January 14, 2008 9:23 PM
……………………………………………….
The shame is believing that marriage is a Disney movie. Some kind of magic wand that will make your life meaningful through no effort of your own.
Do you at all regret having sex before marriage even though you have your beautiful daughter from it?
Okay, Jess…I’m about to answer your question as honestly as I can without being confusing…
I regret having sex before marriage because of what it did to me emotionally and psychologically. I lost my virginity a whole 2 years before I got pregnant. Sure, you hear about the potential pregnancy and STD’s…but nobody ever really talks about the emotional aspect of it. Frankly, at that time in my life when I lost my virginity I think I was looking for real love because I didn’t really love myself. Having thought I found that and then it actually not being the case did more to hurt my self-esteem. Which eventually led to just not caring. I went through a series of relationships which were more like romantic melodrama’s than anything of real substance. Why were they like that? Because I thought sex was the answer.
I do however believe that I had to go through those things in order to become the person that I am today. The series of events that led up to my getting pregnant were unbelievably self-destructive…and I KNOW that without my daughter, I probably wouldn’t be around today. That’s just how much I didn’t care anymore. So basically, I don’t regret having gone through the things I did because I know it made me a better person….but that doesn’t mean at times I don’t shudder at the person I used to be.
My whole freshman year of college still makes me cringe to be quite honest. lol
I hope that answers your question.
Ok all, well sadly odds are about 100000 to 1 in favor of me having school tomorrow morning, so I must bid adieu so I can go to sleep.
Goodnight everyone.
“The shame is believing that marriage is a Disney movie.”
who ever said that it was a Disney movie though Sally.
It’s ok Dan and jasper. The first time I meet his mom she told me if I got pregnant I would have an abortion or she wouldn’t pay for my then bfs college. She was just a real mean person. he ended up breaking up with me because his mom said it was either me or the car. So in the end he refused to stand up and be a man. Anyway now he’s even more of a loser who drinks and does drugs like before he meet me and all our mutual friends despise him and are friends with me because I am a real, honest person who truly loves and appreciates the good people in my life.
Yes Dan me and you are the only two people in the virgin/abstinent-till group so far.
Now there are 10 in the other I think.
@Elizabeth
Thank you for the answer I understand what you’re saying. My freshman year of college makes me cringe too : )
Hm, Jill never came back.
Jess, that is true.
If there were one year in my life that I could delete from history..THAT would be the one lol.
Yeah me too… Although all of middle school was horrible, but it is for like 99% of people.
“The first time I meet his mom she told me if I got pregnant I would have an abortion”
Thats awful Jess.
PIP,
If 100% of people here said they steal, that wouldn’t make it right or OK…. we wouldn’t just throw up our hands and say “oh well, people steal, let’s just give them money so they don’t”.
The Truth is the Truth.
Haha YES…but it’s more forgettable than that freshman year of college sadly.
ahhhh….all the ridiculous drunkenness…it had some funny moments though…
I regret every sexual encounter I ever had before I got married.
My pastor once said not one person he had ever counseled said, “I wish I had slept with more people” on their wedding night.
Abstinence education is taught in our home and in our school district. The bar is set at no sex until you are married. Not because I said so but because God says so. Why treat young people like they are walking hormones and have no self control?? Why set them up? Well I guess PP knows that they are future customers!! Of course! They can wait. I know many that do and still are. Waiting I mean.
My four cents.
Posted by: Carla at January 14, 2008 9:35 PM
…………………………………….
I doubt your pastor has ever been in the position to speak with my ex. Sounds like he is wet behind the ears.
Honey, when you set bars for people, they will find their way around, over and under them. People aren’t pets. Pretending that people will not desire sex because you/god says so is foolish. Christianity would have died out in this country a long time ago. What with those traveling men of God that only visited communities every couple of years or so. Why keep children ignorant of their bodies and their possible functions?
jasper,
you are forgetting something. Sex isn’t wrong.
outside of marriage it is PIP.
I don’t get drunk…well not that drunk. I can really hold my liquor but I think that’s hereditary. My ex used to get drunk and threw up on me, crying about how I was so perfect and he didn’t deserve me. Well I guess he didn’t : /
This is true, PIP…but if you had an 11-year old that you raised and took care of for 11 years and they came to you asking you what was right and what was wrong in regards to sex..would you say it IS the right thing to do to wait?
@ jasper
If everyone in the world dies except for a man and a woman and they need to have sex to replenish the population, is it ok for them to have sex outside of marriage?
(Sorry I always wanted to ask that question and now is my chance!)
Jess…I drank wayyyy too much my freshman year of college…I only threw up once the whole year though. That night wasn’t even one of my more cringe-worthy sadly lol.
I would say it is the right thing to wait until you find someone who you love and connect with, and feel emotionally ready for it.
I will also tell them frankly what it is and all that, and that s/he should feel free to talk to me if s/he is thinking about having sex with their boy/girl friends. Then we can discuss options such as birth control and find out if h/she is doing it for the right reasons.
“Christianity would have died out in this country a long time ago.”
why do think it hasn’t died Sally?
Your ex is wet behind the ears? wow
Honey, I didn’t say people won’t “desire” sex. They will. God has a better plan for them then giving themselves away. My children know plenty about their bodies and functions. As soon as they could grab it they learned it was a penis. Sex ed begins.
Given the fact that so many people here did NOT wait until marriage it makes me wonder why we can’t treat sex like something that should be expected to happen but when it does go about it with self-respect and knowledge.
At 11 you’d talk about birth control? Or was that just a general statement about what you’d say?
What does “wet behind the ears” mean?
no, I’d tell them what sex is. When they come to me saying they are thinking about becoming sexually active I will tell them about birth control.
I knew a girl who lost her virginity to her best friend at 12. She doesn’t regret it, and he moved away and died (I forget how) a little while later. A few months later someone called her house asking to speak to her saying he was her best friend. He left a message with her mom (she didn’t know he died) telling her to tell the girl he was alright but missed her.
at what age PIP? even 11 yrs?
“The shame is believing that marriage is a Disney movie.”
who ever said that it was a Disney movie though Sally.
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 9:40 PM
………………………………..
If you wish to understand the issue, you might attempt to understand women and how they have been raised to believe anything they might believe.
Well, PIP, make sure you tell them the success rate of that birth control..that is IF they are using it correctly.
I’m really glad my parents kept me so busy with lots of activities like dance that I never had time to worry about that when I was that younger. I couldn’t imagine having life be that complicated and not even be out of high school.
“Christianity would have died out in this country a long time ago.”
why do think it hasn’t died Sally?
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 9:57 PM
……………………………
There will always be snake oil salesmen Jasper. Selling whatever will help you avoid facing yourself, your potential along with your failings.
I’m not sure what happened in your past Sally, but someone must of hurt you and you seem to be taking it out on Christianity.
re: Freshman Year of College Regrets
If any of you want to chip in and get a good rate on some sort of hypnotism that will permanently erase all memories of the stupid stuff we did that year, count me in!!!
That is so weird about your friend and that phone call, Jess. 12 is so young! I was still playing with dolls. I will admit, though, I was a late bloomer.
And “wet behind the ears” means naive or inexperienced.
Haha, Samantha I would pay some good money for the hypnotism as well. lol
I wasn’t a virgin before marriage and I do regret it.
I think this had to do alot with our culture, if I had actually followed church teaching I wouldn’t of had that problem. Luckly I met a good women and started going back to Church.
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 9:37 PM
………………………………………
Do you regret having sex or regret ‘your’ religion having a problem with it? I think that your issue is your wife’s insecurity over your past lovers. You obviously didn’t seek out religion on your own accord. I think that she blames you for her insecurities and you just pass the blame along.
jasper-
I’m sure at 11 years we would talk it through and decide s/he is not ready.
“Well, PIP, make sure you tell them the success rate of that birth control..that is IF they are using it correctly.
I’m really glad my parents kept me so busy with lots of activities like dance that I never had time to worry about that when I was that younger. I couldn’t imagine having life be that complicated and not even be out of high school.”
I intend to do both, that is keep them actually informed, and keep them busy with activities. I hope to raise any future children to be well-rounded enough that they will focus on their activities and other passions and not be pressured into having sex at an early age. An involved parent and child make a big difference, from what I’ve read.
“permanently erase all memories of the stupid stuff we did that year, count me in!!!”
I have a DVD called the found footage festival, and one video they found was “how to seduce women with hypnosis.” CREEPIEST VIDEO EVER.
“The first time I meet his mom she told me if I got pregnant I would have an abortion”
Thats awful Jess.
PIP,
If 100% of people here said they steal, that wouldn’t make it right or OK…. we wouldn’t just throw up our hands and say “oh well, people steal, let’s just give them money so they don’t”.
The Truth is the Truth.
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 9:48 PM
………………….
Rather than labeling behaviors right or wrong, it might be a bit more humane to look at the reasons for the behaviors that displease you and address those reasons.
Haha, PIP, I can totally imagine the kind of guy that would buy into that. He wears lots of AXE cologne and smokes cigars.
Anyway, I think your parenting theory sounds great. I didn’t lose my virginity until I was out of college and I think a big reason I waited so long was because my parents were really involved in my life and open enough about sex that I didn’t feel like it was this big, forbidden thing that I wanted to sneak out and try.
What does “wet behind the ears” mean?
Posted by: Jess at January 14, 2008 10:00 PM
…………………………..
Newly born. Naive. Inexperienced.
Sorry, that was me at 10:30.
I’m not sure what happened in your past Sally, but someone must of hurt you and you seem to be taking it out on Christianity.
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 10:10 PM
…………………………………
Seems to me Jasper that you are hurting and are taking it out on women.
Oooohhhhh, can I join the poll? (I am kind of late though)..
I am 23, I am not married (never have been), and I am no virgin. I also do not regret having sex, ever, or regret with a certain person…
“Rather than labeling behaviors right or wrong”
Thats the problem Sally, we don’t label things right and wrong enough, thats why our society is screwed up.
“Seems to me Jasper that you are hurting and are taking it out on women.”
how is that Sally?
was I wrong in what I said? I’m not being cynical, if a person hurt you, it wasn’t God or the Church’s fault, it was that persons fault.
Thats the problem Sally, we don’t label things right and wrong enough, thats why our society is screwed up.
*
Jasper:
The problem here is not everyone views the same things as right or wrong, moral or imoral, godly or sinful.
You think it is wrong for a person to be sexually active before they are married, you think that abortions “are murder”.
No one in this worl is ever going to 100% agree on things that have to do with being right or wrong, moral or imoral. This is where you & HisMan fall short.
You think that your way is the right way. And if anyone disagrees with you, than they are sinner, and probably going to hell.
Now then, with that said. I understand that people, societies and views change throughout the years. Once slavery was legal, and then the views of society changed, and it became illegal. It was once thought that HIV/AIDS was a “gay disease”. Well, that theory was proved false.
You need to understand that not everyone agrees with you. You shouldnt try to force your morals/ideas on someone and then “shun” them b/c they disagree with you.
Does any of this make sense to you at all?
midnite, never too late to join the poll!
what is that, 11 to 2?
Thanks, samantha ;)
Why do you regret having sex before marriage? Did you think that having sex would ensure a marriage? Do you think that getting married ensures sex?
Posted by: Sally at January 14, 2008 9:20 PM
No, I never thought sex would ensure marriage. I did think that I loved the guy enough and he loved me that we would get married, hence why I said yes in the first place. I had seen enough, by the time I lost my virginity, to know that nothing was a sure bet and I only have myself to blame for my choices.
I was past my teen years when I first had sex as were most of my friends. I’d still say I loved the guy but he wasn’t the one I married and I should have waited. He didn’t tell me he was going to marry me to get me into bed.
And YES marriage ensures sex! At least in MY marriage. Man oh man! It’s great!
I read some of your other posts Sally and you seem to have a real problem with the fact that YOU seem to have believed everything you were told at one point or another. Now you have some serious issues. For instance, no one here ever said marriage was a Disney movie. If you thought that then boy, I feel sorry for you! I’m sure you were completely unprepared for the ride. Is that why you seem so, shall we say “unpleasant” at times?
BTW PIP, you should count Jacque with you and Dan, I thought there was one other too…
Also, PIP:
When I have kids, I plan on the same parenting style that you explained. I’ll talk to my kids, and tell them pretty much anything they want to know. My parents did not do that with me, and then my mother was “shocked” when she finally asked me. I told her the truth. And then we started haveing an “open relationship” so to speak. I told her what was going on in my life, and she listened and offered advice (that I’ll never admit was right/correct, lol)
But I think that sex is sooo “taboo” in this country. Kids dont understand it, and they’re told Not to do it, so they go and do it anyway, b/c they were told not to basically. This is why AO Education does not work.
For instance, no one here ever said marriage was a Disney movie. If you thought that then boy, I feel sorry for you!
Kristen (haha, I got it right this time)
I kind of agree with Sally on this post. I mean, Hallmark and Disney created “this fantasy” for little girls. We all thought at once that a Prince Chariming would show up and “sweep us off our feet”. They made love out to be this fairy tale.
They never fought in their stories, nor did they have to deal with “everyday issues” (i.e. bills, dinner, children). They rode off into the sunset and apparently never had a fight about anything.
Little girls grow up and expect a man to do these things for them. Save them, take care of them, etc.
Seriously, how many woman do you know that were asleep for years, and then suddenly out of the blue, her “soulamte” arrives! He is gorgeous (and a prince to boot!), kisses her and all her problems (aka. sleeping) magically go away?
Be real: Disney and Hallmark taught women to believe in something that probably doesnt exisit.
Midnite678:
Yes Jasper and I do agree on many of the same issues……and Jill, and MK….and Carla and Bethany, etc.
Falling short is not one of them.
The way we describe is not our way it is God’s way as He as laid it out. We simply have surrendered our way to His way because we believe that His way is best. Every other way is the wrong way because well, He’s God and has the right to call something right or wrong.
So when you disagree with us, you are not diagreeing with us as you think but with the Maker of the Universe. Take it up with Him and deal with Him when you eventually face Him. In my opinion it is foolish to oppose a God who made gravity, made the sun, made the earth and made us, etc. I think He knows just a little bit more than all of us and therefore I submit my will to His as best as I can despite all my failings.
By the way….the only reason your nose has a chance of healing is because a wonderful and merciful God made is that way.
“Rather than labeling behaviors right or wrong”
Thats the problem Sally, we don’t label things right and wrong enough, thats why our society is screwed up.
“Seems to me Jasper that you are hurting and are taking it out on women.”
how is that Sally?
was I wrong in what I said? I’m not being cynical, if a person hurt you, it wasn’t God or the Church’s fault, it was that persons fault.
Posted by: jasper at January 14, 2008 10:53 PM
……………………………………………..
Why do you feel that your feelings should be judged right or wrong?
midnite,
I totally agree
Kristen,
that’s true, 11-3.
LOL this next video is hilarious. And relatively less effects, so this one might work on youtube. Maybe scream didn’t work because there were so many effects we put on there?
it is a pregnancy story
HisMan,
wanna take part in my poll?
were you abstinent until marriage?
Be real: Disney and Hallmark taught women to believe in something that probably doesnt exisit.
I don’t take my life lessons from corporations trying to sell me crap. You shouldn’t either.
In case you didn’t know, sex leads to pregnancy. So it is prudent to make sure you and you partner are at a point where you are willing to join together and take responsibility for a new
life. I had sex a couple time before I met my wife and in hindsight I was not ready, but I would have taken responsibility if they had gotten pregnant. But when I was ready I searched for and found my wife. I promised God that I would always care for my wife and and any children he blessed us with and asked him to come be a part of our relationship before we had kids. Six kids later we have been blessed a whole lot *.*
By bringing God into the relationship and promising “Him” that I would always care for my wife, it made it a lot easier to get through hard times. I would never even consider braking that vow because it was not just a vow to my wife, it was a vow to God.
HisMan:
Once again, not everyone agrees in the same God as you, MK, Bethany or anyone does. All Jewish people believe that they are right, Catholics believe that they are right, Muslims believe that they are right.
Who really gets into Heaven is the question? Not everyone has the same religous ideas that y’all do. (We’ve been through this soooo many times before).
And No, my nose will heal b/c I’ve got a great doc and if need be a great plastic surgeon.
Huh? What happened to your nose?
Not everyone has the same religous ideas that y’all do. (We’ve been through this soooo many times before).
So does that mean we can not talk about OUR’S? Or is it only acceptable to talk about your’s? We aren’t 5 years old..I think we get the concept that not everyone believes in the same stuff..but WE can have an opinion too.
Everybody has their own relationship with God.
I would not tell another man and woman how to get along, I can only share how God played “the” key role in my marriage. If it weren’t for my wifes relationship with God she would likely have left me a long time ago for all the stupid,drunken shit I did for so many years. That is why I share my story to others.
No Elizabeth, I am not saying that people can not talk about their opinions about God. I am simply stating that shoving it down a person’s throat isnt the way to go either. Do you get my point?
And that post was directed at HisMan. His way is the only way, and anything else is sinful and deserving of hell (most of the time). He has NO tolerance for other people’s opinions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You want to talk about my opinions with God? He hates me and I’ve been pissed off at him since I was 9 years old.
I was an athiest until I was 16. I got into a horrific car accident (I went down a 50 foot drop off, flipped my car three times without a seatbelt on. My car landed on the roof, with my sitting indian style on the passener side sunroof. I should have died in that accident. But for some reason, I didnt.
That one moment in my life changed my belief to being agnostic. I know there is some sort of highing being, but I still do not believe, and I am not sure if I ever will again.
I lost my faith in god when my grandmother died in front of me at the age of 9. I was always taught that God is “all loveing”, and blah blah blah blah. Too many bad things have happened in my life, and are still happening for me to have any faith in anyone besides myself. I know that may seem selfish to some, but whatever.
I’ve learned that the only person I can depend on it me. I wont break my heart, I wont lie or cheat or steal. Other people will do this to me, but I wont.
Are you happy now that you know my opinion?
Do think I am going to hell and will burn ther for all eternity as well?
And while I am ranting, let me add this as well.
I still treat people the way I would like to be treated. And where has this landed me? Up $h*t creek without a paddle.
I try to always see the good in people. And even when they hurt me, betray me, and break my heart into a thousand pieces, I give them another chance to do it to me again.
And yet, I still wish them nothing but happiness in life. Do they wish the same for me? No, I’ve been told that I am cold hearted and will die alone, that my cervical cancer is God’s punishment for something I’ve done wrong (i.e. being PC, have sex before I was married), that my biological father did the right thing for throwing me away like the PIECE OF TRASH that I am.
Do I tell you this to make you pitty me or “go easy” on me. No, I tell you b/c honestly I am sick and tired of being nice and polite when no one else on the planet seems to give a d@mn about what happens to me.
Do think I am going to hell and will burn ther for all eternity as well?
No, but I do think you are a very sad/angry person as a result of all the things that have happened to you. It sort of sounds like to me that you are in your own personal hell of sorts.
Why do you blame other people letting you down/hurting you on God?
midnite678
The Lord is close to the broken hearted,
those whose spirit is crushed, he will save.
Psalm 34 verse 19
No, I’ve been told that I am cold hearted and will die alone, that my cervical cancer is God’s punishment for something I’ve done wrong (i.e. being PC, have sex before I was married), that my biological father did the right thing for throwing me away like the PIECE OF TRASH that I am.
I do not know who said these terrible things to you Midnite..but they are not true people of God.
On a side note…I did not know you have/had cervical cancer. I was wondering if maybe you could get my email from one of the mod’s…I would like to talk more about that with you if you don’t mind.
Elizabeth,
she is not blaming other people hurting her on God. She is blaming God cause he is the author of all things and she has suffered greatly.
You’re right about one thing Elizabeth. I am depressed beyond all belief (battled it and been on meds on and off since I was 12), and I am angry about the things that have happened to me.
I believed in God, so much when I was younger. I was in church three times a week. And what has he done for me? Let me down, showed me nothing but ugliness in the world.
Even after everything that has happened to me, I treat people with nothing but kindness, and the people who are supposed to care about me, dont. They dont care that I am basically drowning in my own life, and about the half time, I dont see a point in living.
I smile and let everyone believe that I am such a “tough” person, and nothing bothers me. No one has bothered to actually see me for 23 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yes, I was diagnosed with the first stage when I was 19. I had surgery, it went away for a little while. And now it has come back. My doc is trying everything to avoid a surgery to remove half of my cervix, or chemo/radiation. There is a good possibility that I cant have children. I never really thought about having children untill the choice was taken away from me.
Now wouldnt you be angry beyond belief?
It sounds like you and I have quite a few things in common, Midnite.
Midnite,
I am trying to find some words that maybe will be able to offer you some comfort…but I am having trouble. I suppose that there are not any in this situation. I do really wish that I could give you a hug, though…cause even through the computer I feel as though you need it.
What things are those?
Well, I have to go to the doctors about every 3 months to make sure the “abnormal cells” on my cervix haven’t turned into cancer..and about once a year I have to have a colposcopy. I don’t really know what the cause of your cervical cancer is…but I suppose I wouldn’t need 3 guesses if it’s the same reason I have those “abnormal cells”…..
I pretend to be the “tough” girl too.
Elizabeth:
They dont know why I have it. It doesnt run in my family (heart attacks and obesity does), and I dont have HPV. All the specialists I have seen dont understand why and are baffled that I have it at my age.
I am angry about that, I am angry about everything in my life honestly.
My ex-bestfriend once told me, I should do the world a favor and kill myself. And sometimes I think she is right….
midnite678,
I nearly lost my son at age 6 to cancer. He had to go through chemo and spinal taps but he made it through. I used to go down to Childrens memorial Hospital every Friday so they could inject him with poison to kill the cancer. He was an “amazing” standout in athletics prior to his cancer. Now he walks with a limp. When he was diagnosed “my” spirit was crushed. I broke down crying in the shower and asked God why he needed to take my son? Why couldn’t he take me instead? I began praying with him and for him for hours on end every day. This believing in God thing is not all happiness and I have learned the importance of keeping God close both in good times and in bad. If you truly believe, then you understand that there is a “real” spiritual warfare going on out there and the devil is a busy man. All the babies ans young kids I saw suffering with cancer it broke my heart. Every Friaday new ones would come to the clinic. Many, even the ones I prayed for, lost their lives to the scourge of cancer. Perhaps God has other plans for you that are not the ones you have for yourself. We cannot even begin to understand the order he establishes throughout the ages. He has given us tools to safeguard ourselves in the battle, His Word, His Son and His Holy Spirit. These can protect you from the assaults of the evil in this world.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses.
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
Hmmm…that IS very strange. My aunt had cervical cancer and had a hysterectomy in her late 20’s. I don’t honestly know why…but I would assume it was due to the HPV from her deadbeat husband.
My ex-bestfriend once told me, I should do the world a favor and kill myself. And sometimes I think she is right….
Well, I am glad she is your ex-best friend..she doesn’t sound like such a great friend to me. I really am sorry but I do not want to make you feel like I am patronizing you with words that don’t seem to make much of a difference in this situation. All I can say is take it one day at a time. That’s how I get through A LOT. I can’t think about it in weeks or months or years. Just tomorrow..that’s all I can think about. Sometimes not even that.
Midnite678,
If you do want to, here is a prayer I pray for my son that you might find useful against the attacks of the devil.
O my Jesus, you who once said, ask anything of the Father in my name and he shall grant it to you. Behold, in your name I ask for the grace of his Holy Spirit to come down upon midnite678 and to give her the strength to perservere through lifes trials. May He send His holy angels down to visit with her always, to comfort her and to protect her. To drive Satan and his cancerous, deceitful, foul legions of disorder far from her. And to guide her into
your Sacred Heart.
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses.
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, now and forever. Amen.
Oh Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in you.
Possibly the nicest, most sweetest girl I know is now in a coma because of an icy road. The day after her 20th birthday. It’s hard to know why that stuff happens. It’s so devastating
Recently she was alert for a while and could move her hands. She knows sign language. The first word she signed was Jesus.
pip,
what is her name?
brigette
thx, sounds Irish, Let’s pray a Hail Mary for her.
Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen
Amen.
Midnite,
I believed in God, so much when I was younger. I was in church three times a week. And what has he done for me? Let me down, showed me nothing but ugliness in the world.
The only reason you know ugliness, is because you knew God first. Ugliness is the opposite of God, and unless you had His beauty and goodness to compare it too, you wouldn’t recognize “ugliness”.
Isn’t it possible that He is the reason you survived that accident? Isn’t it possible that He is waiting to give you so many things, but can’t because you won’t let Him. Isn’t it possible that He loves YOU even if you don’t love Him?
All the people that have hurt you, are people that have made the same choice that you have. The choice to throw God out of their life and try to be in charge themselves. By doing this, they follow their own laws, which include do unto others that which will forward your own cause. If they hurt you, it’s because they too chose to dump God.
Free Will and human choices are the culprits here, not God.
Midnite,
CS Lewis:
“I quite agree that the Christian Religion is, in the long run, a thing of unspeakable comfort. But it does not begin in comfort; it begins in dismay”
God can’t work through you if you’re fighting Him.
The first step to conversion is usually the feeling that EVERYTHING is wrong. This is when we realize that we need a little help…
He also says:
“Christianity tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness. It therefore has nothing, (as far as I know) to say to people who do not know they have done anything to repent of and who do not feel that they need forgiveness. It is after you have realized that there is a Moral Law, and a Power behind the Law and that you have broken the Law and put yourself wrong with that power – it is after all this, and not a moment sooner , that Christianity begins to talk.”
It is precisely the feelings that you are describing that lead people to Him to begin with.
When we become dissatisfied with the way things are going with ourselves in charge. But we fight Him so hard sometimes…
Lewis has this to say:
“Now what was the sort of “hole” that man had got himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement; He is a rebel, who must lay down his arms”
The one thing you can count on when you ask God back into your life, is that the first thing He will do is destroy your old self. This can be really painful, but He demands a clean canvas. The whole erasure/emptying process can be very, very tough. But once you are empty and completely trusting Him, He begins, bit by bit, to fill you up and fill the canvas in, with the most beautiful colors imaginable…
The trick is to “lay down your arms” and stop fighting the process…
Truthseeker,
If you are interested in a Novena “for souls” email me. It’s about that time again…If Bobby and Jacquie show up, we can do some real damage…
Any other Catholics out there that are interested, just email and we’ll set one up…
You know, I think the first time I truly recognized beauty was once I didn’t believe in God anymore. Things are more incredible without a god.
I get jealous of you guys sometimes, you guys who go to church and believe everything you hear. You don’t seem to realize that I honestly can’t really decide to be a Christian or anything. I don’t believe in God because reason tells me very forcefully that there is no God. I could stand around and say prayers and say that I believe in God but I’d be lying, and I’d know it, and any god that might be listening would know it too.
Erin,
That’s what the second CSLewis quote addresses. Christianity doesn’t speak to you because you haven’t admitted/understood that there is a “higher power” that has your best interests at heart and that you are answerable to. Until that moment, there is nothing He can do.
The emptying process is the first step. Admitting that you know nothing, but want to know everything. Admitting that you have nothing, but want to have everything.
Admitting that when you are in charge, stuff keeps getting screwed up…until then, you’re on your own, because you choose to be on your own.
Even the fact that you can make the choice to keep Him out of your life, is because He allowed you to.
And we don’t believe everything we hear…to begin with we hear on this very blog all the time that we are “wrong”…You make us sound childish and naive…but we are anything but.
Most of us started out where you are. Most of us have struggled for a long, long time before we got where we are.
I’d venture to say that 99% of us did not accept what we believe without rebelling long and hard first. With the exception of Bethany, I think most of us were sitting where you are before we got to where we are.
We all went through a “conversion”. We all had to reject the lives we were living. We all had to seek the truth before we found it, and we were all standing on the other side of the door when we first knocked.
And honestly Erin,
Nobody decides to become a Christian. Faith is a gift. The only decision you make is to accept the gift when it is offered. It’s not an intellectual “choice”…it comes from someplace much, much deeper.
Dear Midnite,
I am sorry for all of the pain you have endured. You have shown yourself to be strong and taken the world on your shoulders and decided to only trust yourself. I know that feeling. I was raised in an abusive home. No affection, no attention, no love of any kind. The people that were supposed to love me did not. That led to my search for love…..I lost my Grandma at age 14. She was the only one who showed me love. I started drinking at 14 and thought of suicide. God sent me a best friend that literally saved my life.
Still I wanted love. Men, drinking, The Pill, sex led to HPV, cervical cancer, surgery, abusive relationships, pregnancy and abortion to say nothing of my broken heart and damaged soul. I believed I deserved no better. It has taken YEARS to hear God’s voice tell me I am not a waste of a person. I am not trash either. He made me. He made you. I resonate so much with your words and I do understand your pain. I am so very sorry that you are hurting. I struggle daily with “believing” that God REALLY does love me. I am quicker to shut down those thoughts of how worthless I am. My soul longs to hear and believe His words. There is no greater joy in my life than knowing I am not a mistake. I am His daughter.
Midnite, I am not a preacher and really am not trying to preach. I do however care. A lot. I am a 42 year old mother of 4 who struggles everyday with the past. I have to leave it back there and stay here in the present.
I admire your brutal honesty and your patience with us. We long to share what we have found with you. :) God loves you, Midnite. You are His idea. I love you too.
Oh sacred heart of jesus, I trust you to put kids into comas and give them the strength to fight the cancer you have given them so graciously. Come on people. Get with it.
Peachpit,
You obviously do not understand the connection between sin, reparation, forgiveness and suffering.
It would probably be a waste of time to try and explain it to you as you sound very closed to the ideas behind the Catholic/Christian Church.
However, it must be said, that God does not “give” Cancer to children. God is incapable of doing anything “bad” as He is all Good. His hands, however are tied, when it comes to just punishment for sin, and PEOPLES choices are very often not His choices. When this happens, when evil choices are made, then the “evil” resonates and sometimes those that did not perpetuate the evil are the ones that suffer because of it.
In the same way, people who suffer or make sacrifices, offering up their hurts and illnesses can offset this evil, benefiting even those who don’t “deserve” it.
Free will, and “almighty” choice are the culprits, not God.
“No, I tell you b/c honestly I am sick and tired of being nice and polite when no one else on the planet seems to give a d@mn about what happens to me.”
we here care about what happens to you Midnite.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is belief with strong conviction; firm belief in something for which there may be no tangible proof; complete trust; opposite of doubt.
Therefore, salvation is a gift & faith is a choice.
Anonymous,
I am a Catholic and we believe that Faith is one of the Theological virtues, something that must be given to you and not something which you can attain on your own as you could Temperance, Judgment, Prudence or the like…
I realize this differs from the protestant veiwpoint.
@truthseeker
“If it weren’t for my wifes relationship with God she would likely have left me a long time ago for all the stupid,drunken shit I did for so many years. ”
So God wanted your wife to stay with an abusive spouse? Yes wives could wait for their husbands to become good men or for their husbands to set them on fire or kill their kids.
ANON.
For by grace are ye saved through faith
I guess you would say that Grace was the gift…
We don’t believe that Faith is simply choosing to “believe”…Even Satan “believes” in God.
Erin says:
*********************
You know, I think the first time I truly recognized beauty was once I didn’t believe in God anymore. Things are more incredible without a god.
I get jealous of you guys sometimes, you guys who go to church and believe everything you hear. You don’t seem to realize that I honestly can’t really decide to be a Christian or anything. I don’t believe in God because reason tells me very forcefully that there is no God. I could stand around and say prayers and say that I believe in God but I’d be lying, and I’d know it, and any god that might be listening would know it too.
Posted by: Erin at January 15, 2008 5:57 AM
*******************
Erin, Prayer does have the power to “change” things and change people. What have you got to lose by offering fifteen minutes in prayer to God each day. Even if you yourself do not believe in God when you first start praying. Even if the prayer itself is just a longing for God he will answer you. Your relationship with Him needs to be a personal one and of course the answer to prayer is not always what we want, will be according God’s terms.
@midnite
I wish you only the best. You seem like a wonderful, intelligent, loving, beautiful and honest person and if those around you can’t appreciate that then it’s their problem. It really is.
153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”. Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'”
CCC
Posted by: midnite678 at January 14, 2008 11:16 PM
I think the Disney version was nice but far from reality. I was pretty young when things started to turn in my parents marriage and I remember a lot of fighting and then silence. I don’t think I ever had the impression that it was a picnic.
MK – I’m interested in the novena. Do you do “First Fridays?”
PiP, when you marry and your husband goes on a business trip, will you pack him a condom – just in case?
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 14, 2008 5:59 PM
****************************************
Why are you trying to compare a single person with a married person? What does one have to do with the other? Thats dishonest and a deliberate emotional dig – and shows the typically bungling underhanded tactics of antichoicers.
That is not what *I* interpreted Jill’s question to mean at all.
She meant, at least I think so..that people cheat on their spouses..you can’t stop them from cheating..so why not just accept it and give him a condom? At least that’s what I interpreted her statement as..which is basically the same thing they’re saying to teens. “We know you’re going to do it anyway, so here you go.”
Posted by: Elizabeth at January 14, 2008 6:33 PM
******************************
back to trying to make excuses for an idiotic question – she tried to turn a valid point into a personal dig and anyone with any integrity would admit she has egg on her face as a result
Hi Midnite,
have something that may interest you and your oncologist. …http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2005/nov/1214323.htm … the inventor’s name is John Kanzius. if you google his name, you’ll get multi hits….
big (((hug))) to you
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
TR,
I don’t think so…I think Elizabeth was right. Jill is just trying to point out that the rationalization “they are gonna do it anyway so give them a condom” could be applied to all kinds of “wrong” behavior, including adultery. Men will cheat, why not educate them on how to do it correctly and supply them with protection so they don’t infect their spouses…Are you against that?
@ mk
Then you could also say if a person is able to stay abstinent before marriage they are frigid and will not engage in sex after marriage.
Ephesians 4:6-8
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7: But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8: Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
—-hence, the gift of salvation
PiP, my analogy is just fine. You won’t want your husband to have sex outside of marriage, but in case that bar is too high – because so many married men do – you need to pack a condom in his wallet.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 14, 2008 6:58 PM
*********************************
Your analogy was deliberately offensive, insulting and ridiculous.
There is a huge difference in telling a 14 year old that its not a good idea to be sexually active, and telling a 24 year old the same thing. And ‘kids’ need to be able to make intelligent decisions and act responsibly when the time comes that they DO decide to have sex. Responsible parents need to have some faith in their kids decision making skills. Some of you are admitting you dont. Insisting ‘you have to wait until your married’ isnt even remotely rational. Ignorance is NOT an asset. Keeping children ignorant then whining ‘What they dont know wont hurt them’ makes the parents look like fools. Of course you may be HOPING your daughter gets pregnant just so you can say ‘I told you so’, hold it over her head, and make sure she is adequately ‘punished’ for ‘sinning’ by forcing her to continue an unwanted pregnancy and have a child she isnt ready to care for. Is that your real motivation?
Nah, it was pushing buttons.
“Give your husband a condom if you can’t expect him to be abstinent.” is right up there with “Sure your kids are abstinent, they’re fat and ugly!”
Still I wanted love. Men, drinking, The Pill, sex led to HPV, cervical cancer, surgery, abusive relationships, pregnancy and abortion to say nothing of my broken heart and damaged soul.
Posted by: Carla at January 15, 2008 7:05 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, Carla-
Most of us manage to enjoy love, men, drinking, the pill and sex without having any of your disasters – just fun.
Why is that?
Have fun.
TR,
I don’t think so…I think Elizabeth was right. Jill is just trying to point out that the rationalization “they are gonna do it anyway so give them a condom” could be applied to all kinds of “wrong” behavior, including adultery. Men will cheat, why not educate them on how to do it correctly and supply them with protection so they don’t infect their spouses…Are you against that?
Posted by: mk at January 15, 2008 9:42 AM
***************************
of course you agree with Jill – its your job
Again, trying to compare a single person and a married person is idiotic and it was a deliberate attempt to be insulting
Laura,
do have any children?
I think that the example of marital infidelity is flawed. What’s really hurtful about extra-marital sex is that it is a betrayal of one partner’s trust — unless there is no betrayal, such as if the other partner has agreed that they are okay with having an open relationship. I think it’s the responsibility of anyone who does not feel that they can be faithful to one person to make their lover aware that fidelity is something they cannot guarantee, and to let their lover decide if that is something they want to stick around for or if that’s a deal-breaker. I don’t view extramarital sex as inherently bad; I do view lying and betrayal as bad.
Huh, sort of the same with teen sex: I think honesty and accurate information help everyone deal with the realities of a situation and hurt other people (or themselves) as little as possible.
For the poll, I am not married and am not abstinent. I first had sex at 22. I’m now 25 and have been in a monogamous relationship for three years. I do not regret having sex; I waited until I was ready and today I find it an enjoyable and enriching aspect of what I believe is a fulfilling life.
The first time I had sex I was just barely 17 and he was almost 18 and still a virgin. We’d been dating for nearly a year and were madly in love with each other. Neither one of us really knew what we were doing and in retrospect there was a lot to laugh about. We got married 12 months later to the day. Do I regret it? No. Not at all. The relationship lasted 27 years, the marriage 25. I have two perfect sons from it. And I’d still be married if he hadnt gone full goose bozo and gotten involved with a weird fringe retro hippie psychobabble bullshit cult. I also dont regret anyone I went to bed with after I started dating again. OK – one guy I regret – but only because when I stopped dating him it really hurt his feelings. Im sorry that happened. But Im far too old for someone else to presume to make rules for me and expect me to follow ’em.
Nah, it was pushing buttons.
“Give your husband a condom if you can’t expect him to be abstinent.” is right up there with “Sure your kids are abstinent, they’re fat and ugly!”
Posted by: FetusFascist at January 15, 2008 10:26 AM
******
gaaaak! … do you know how hard it is to get an energy drink off a keyboard? that stuff is STICKY when it dries!
*hugs*, midnite
Laura,
do have any children?
Posted by: jasper at January 15, 2008 10:55 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go fish!
Thats what I thought Laura, your lack of empathy for unborn children is apparent.
I had to have my uterus removed when I was 30. I suddenly started getting cell activity. I found out my mother took DES when she was pregnant with me. We could have tried something less radical. I would have liked a third child but realistically we accepted taking care of a newborn, two toddlers, and trying to recover from a C section wouldnt have turned out too well. But we decided just removing the uterus was the most reasonable thing to do.
Not married. Virgin- no sex0rz for me.
In fact…I’m 20 and have never been kissed OR been on a date. Charming.
Rae are you from MN? The pics of you and MK said Minnesota facebook.
13 to 4!
Pip,
What does that mean again? :)
13 people did not wait until marriage; 4 people did/are virgins
oh my gosh. YouTube is now dead to me.
@Carla: Yeah, I’m from Minnesota. :)
@PiP: Did you read about the heart-grown-in-a-jar at the University of Minnesota? I just about crapped myself from sheer amazement. It was soooooo cool! :D
Better tell Stephen that YouTube fails.
I am right across the river in Hudson, WI. cool
Holy crap rae! Are you serious? That’s awesome!
LOL I’ll send him a message.
@Carla: That’s cool. I’m from the White Bear Lake area, though with school, I moved to Minneapolis.
I used to live in White Bear! crazy
Don’t you love the cities? There is always something to do and see. Um except the -4 temp. this morn.
Oh man, I was soooooo cold this morning. My land lord refuses to turn up the heat much and my windows let in a LOT of cold air (they are poorly sealed), so it’s FREEZING.
I like the city, I like how everything is close by and I don’t have to drive far to get from one town to another.
PIP,
what is the point of the poll?
Jess,
@ mk
Then you could also say if a person is able to stay abstinent before marriage they are frigid and will not engage in sex after marriage.
I’m sorry. I don’t get the connection. Could you explain?
Anon,
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith
I think another part of our difference is that we don’t look at baptism as an active sacrament. We see it as receptive. Where as in the protestant church it revolves around the consent of the person being baptized, like an agreement or a consent…In the Catholic Church Baptism is something that you receive…it is a passive undertaking. It isn’t something that we do, but something that is done to us.
It helps to remember the roles that the Church believes we have. We, the Church, are feminine and as such are “receptors”, whereas Jesus is the Masculine and the “aggressor”…
We are the bride. He is the bridegroom. When we are baptized we are “recieving” the holy spirit. It is a supernatural event. We receive sactifying Grace and it is this gift that substantially changes us forever. We have nothing to do with it, really.
But just like with any gift, it’s what you do with it after receiving it that matters. Some people put them in the basement and only pull them out when the “giver” is going to be around, and some use it daily…
The point is that after baptism we are no longer the people we were before baptism…we are changed in a profound way. We then have the opportunity to use the gift.
1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom. CCC
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: CCC
1427 Jesus calls to conversion. This call is an essential part of the proclamation of the kingdom: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.” In the Church’s preaching this call is addressed first to those who do not yet know Christ and his Gospel. Also, Baptism is the principal place for the first and fundamental conversion. It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life. CCC
jasper-
that we shouldn’t rely on religion but what is in the best interest of our children when it comes to sex education.
more than twice as many people here have had sex before marriage, some regret it and some don’t, but that’s the person’s choice. Sex is not an inherently bad or wrong act. Of the 4 virgins here, if I am right about Rae, 3 people do not have specific plans to wait until marriage, just until both the person and partner are ready.
Instead of “abstinence until marriage” attitude, which obviously has a large failure rate even among the religious on this blog, why don’t we emphasize the right context in regards to readiness and commitment, maturity and open dialogue, and what kinds of options are out there on birth control and how to use it properly.
Obviously the “just don’t do it” message hasn’t done much among the people here. Comprehensive sex ed does not mean promoting promiscuous sex, but having sex in the right context and how to prepare for it.
I didn’t become a Christ follower until I was 28 years old. I was married by then. I can only look ahead and tell my children what I know to be best for them based on what I have learned and what my faith teaches. Wait.
Ephesians 4:4-6 (King James Version)
4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Carla-
I don’t want to tell parents what to say but in terms of public sex ed those are my opinions. In a religious family I naturally expect parents to teach and expect their children to wait until marriage, so I just won’t go there. Parenting is a whole different ball o wax.
mk,
non-denominational…all backed up by God’s word…very interesting:
http://www.havefaith.org/new_page_7b.htm
TO ALL:
http://www.havefaith.org/
excellent, easy to understand, un-biased info straight from the bible. Answers ALOT of popular questions that people have. Scroll down a bit & click on a topic highlighted in blue. He (Les) is non-denominational. (ie, no specific “religion”)
Thanks Pip. :)
I really wish the school system would teach kids how to read, write, and add…that’s what they’re meant to do. I’m the parent..when the time is right, I’ll talk to my kid about her body and sex related topics. Some kids in the public school system can’t even do simple addition, but hey..as long as they know how to work a condom. Sounds a little freaking backwards to me. Parents…do the parenting. Schools…teach my kid history, math, science, etc.
**Just for the record…I know I’m an idealist and that there are parents out there who don’t parent very well, but I just get fed up with people expecting the schools to raise our children for us**
I couldn’t agree more, Elizabeth!
Stick around, Carla. You’re insights contribute much to the forum.
Midnite,
Couldn’t add more to what’s already been expressed to you. Just add my name to the cyberfriend list.
“I really wish the school system would teach kids how to read, write, and add…that’s what they’re meant to do.”
Elizabeth I definitely agree that we need to have better focus on academics, it’s just ridiculous.
But comprehensive sex ed should be there in health class. Maybe the school should make health class optional but sex ed mandatory in health class. Sounds pretty fair to me.
Btw, I sent in my picture, so maybe it’ll pop up soon!
Thank you Carder. I am glad I keep checking in.:)
Who am I kidding? I’m addicted.
“Maybe the school should make health class optional but sex ed mandatory in health class.”
what would be covered in this class PIP?
Everything AO Education leaves out.
Information that people need to know, duh.
Anonymous,
No one is arguing that both the Catholic church, and the protestant church both have the sacrament of baptism. But our understandings of it are different.
I won’t get into a scripture war with you however, as you will most definitely win. lol
Quite honestly, I’m not even sure what you were trying to say with those last two scriptures…
Jess
***************
@truthseeker
“If it weren’t for my wifes relationship with God she would likely have left me a long time ago for all the stupid,drunken shit I did for so many years. ”
So God wanted your wife to stay with an abusive spouse? Yes wives could wait for their husbands to become good men or for their husbands to set them on fire or kill their kids.
Posted by: Jess at January 15, 2008 9:22 AM
***************
Absolutely not Jess. Never stay in an abusive environment. It would not be fair to you or the children. You “must” seperate yourself and your childre from abuse. I did a lot of stupid shit but I never abused my wife or kids, mostly just myself.
Jess,
I was had to throw my “father-in-law” (not that I ever considered him any kind of father figure)out of my mother-in-laws house cause my wifes brother told me that he was being abused. I did not hesitate. I went over and confronted him and tcalled him out the minute I found out.
Anon,
mk,
non-denominational…all backed up by God’s word…very interesting:
Claiming to be non-denominational is misleading. It makes it sound like it’s for everyone.
You adhere to sola scriptura, I don’t. So telling me what’s in scripture and how it should be interpreted is pointless.
The Catholic Church has interpreted Scripture and that interpretation plus Sacred Tradition is what I follow.
I’m not saying Scripture isn’t valid…just that I am not qualified to interpret it…
Could you point out where in scripture it says to follow ONLY scripture? If so, then we can talk. If not, then I’m afraid we are starting with two different premises…
mk,
Claiming to be non-denominational is misleading. It makes it sound like it’s for everyone.
—not really. Non-denominational is simply one who does not desigate himself with a particular religious group. God’s word through His teachings ARE for everyone.
mk,
“You adhere to sola scriptura, I don’t. So telling me what’s in scripture and how it should be interpreted is pointless.”
—You are correct. I do adhere to “sola scriptura” (the doctrine that the Holy Bible, being the Word of God, is the only infallible rule of faith and practice for Christians in the post-apostolic age) because I believe that if God wanted me to know something else, He sure would have put it in the Bible!
mk,
“The Catholic Church has interpreted Scripture and that interpretation plus Sacred Tradition is what I follow.”
——And that is fine. The Holy Spirit guides me through the interpretation of the bible. It doesn’t matter to me whether a man was called, born into, bought into or inherited a high position in a church, I tend to follow God’s word and nothing else. I think Paul did a very good job teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to us. The bible is actually pretty simple to understand if you can seperate what needs to be seperated, and pay attention to whom each book was written for.
This may help if you’re interested:
http://www.havefaith.org/new_page_24a.htm
mk,
“I’m not saying Scripture isn’t valid…just that I am not qualified to interpret it…”
—-nor am I (not qualified to interpret it). Thank God for the Holy Spirit!
mk,
“Could you point out where in scripture it says to follow ONLY scripture? If so, then we can talk. If not, then I’m afraid we are starting with two different premises…”
—no, I cannot. I have been reading a book by C.S. Lewis lately, (The Best of C.S. Lewis), and I believe his re-printing of a quote from Thomas Erskine of Linlathen in Chapter 11, Christianity and “Religion” sums it up pretty well:
“Those who make religion their god will not have God for their religion.”
“Instead of “abstinence until marriage” attitude, which obviously has a large failure rate even among the religious on this blog, why don’t we emphasize the right context in regards to readiness and commitment, maturity and open dialogue, and what kinds of options are out there on birth control and how to use it properly.”
Because what you propose is against Gods plan, even though there may be a high failure rate, we should not lose sight of what God intended and we should strive to do what is right (husband and wife giving themselves to each other only). PIP, in your plan, why even bother with marriage?
PIP, you are thinking as man thinks, not as God in heaven thinks…..
Jasper:
So even though kids will have sex any way, we should let them get accidently pregnant, contract STDs, possibly die from HIV/AIDS b/c your too stubborn to try Comprehensive Sex Education?
Way to “punish” people for not agreeing with you.
Midnite,
Thats why sex belongs in marriage:
Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2390 In a so-called free union, a man and a woman refuse to give juridical and public form to a liaison involving sexual intimacy. The expression “free union” is fallacious: what can “union” mean when the partners make no commitment to one another, each exhibiting a lack of trust in the other, in himself, or in the future? The expression covers a number of different situations: concubinage, rejection of marriage as such, or inability to make long-term commitments.[182] All these situations offend against the dignity of marriage; they destroy the very idea of the family; they weaken the sense of fidelity. They are contrary to the moral law.
Well, some people do not follow moral law Jasper. Most follow criminal law.
Jasper,
At what age has the RCC deemed it morally legal for people to wed? Are there moral restrictions on kinship or age differences?
Weren’t those Borgias just a fine model of Catholic moral law!
God’s law never changes. Just the RCC’s convenient interpretations.
We need the Mexico Policy to be enforced here in the USA!
Check out the info on Mike Pence’s effort to make that happen here.
http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/Rep_Pence_abortion_funds_/2007/11/20/50877.html
Laura,
do have any children?
Posted by: jasper at January 15, 2008 10:55 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go fish!
Posted by: FetusFascist at January 15, 2008 11:45 AM
Thats what I thought Laura, your lack of empathy for unborn children is apparent.
Posted by: jasper at January 15, 2008 11:48 AM
………………………………..
Empathy? You relate to an embryo? You relate your feelings (or lack thereof) to that which is incapable of experiencing any sensation or emotion? Explains a lot Jasper.
TR,
I don’t think so…I think Elizabeth was right. Jill is just trying to point out that the rationalization “they are gonna do it anyway so give them a condom” could be applied to all kinds of “wrong” behavior, including adultery. Men will cheat, why not educate them on how to do it correctly and supply them with protection so they don’t infect their spouses…Are you against that?
Posted by: mk at January 15, 2008 9:42 AM
………………………………….
If a man is going to cheat, and you know it, wouldn’t it be rational to remind him of the necessity for protection? What do you have against rationality?
“what would be covered in this class PIP?”
What is covered in any health class? Quit playing the ignorance card ;)
“Because what you propose is against Gods plan, even though there may be a high failure rate, we should not lose sight of what God intended and we should strive to do what is right (husband and wife giving themselves to each other only). PIP, in your plan, why even bother with marriage?
PIP, you are thinking as man thinks, not as God in heaven thinks…..”
jasper, giving only religious reasons for AO ed is doing your cause a disservice. Shouldn’t you have secular reasons too?
Also, marriage is a legal commitment for people that make them eligible for benefits as a couple. That’s why non-religious people get married. Religious think of marriage as a covenant. If these two concepts are so at odds, why not find a different word for one of them?
Anon,
mk,
non-denominational…all backed up by God’s word…very interesting:
Claiming to be non-denominational is misleading. It makes it sound like it’s for everyone.
You adhere to sola scriptura, I don’t. So telling me what’s in scripture and how it should be interpreted is pointless.
The Catholic Church has interpreted Scripture and that interpretation plus Sacred Tradition is what I follow.
I’m not saying Scripture isn’t valid…just that I am not qualified to interpret it…
Could you point out where in scripture it says to follow ONLY scripture? If so, then we can talk. If not, then I’m afraid we are starting with two different premises…
Posted by: mk at January 15, 2008 6:28 PM
……………………………….
mk, I think that if you studied the falling out of the RCC scholars that led to the Protestant movement, you might get an understanding of the protest over the RCC’s doctrines. The additions and subtractions that they violently defended having the right to enforce. I don’t think that you begin to understand the premises you support.
Everybody:
Stop spreading the lies that contraceptives will stop abortion. To teach this to kids as a part of sex-education is even worse. Lets say your contraceptive is 90-95% effective. That means if you have sex twenty times you are going to end up pregnant 1 or two of those times. So all sorts of young couples practice this so called “educated” sex and wind up with unwanted pregnancies. We are setting our youth up for failure and abortion by teaching them contraception will prevent pregnancy. In fact it only encourages behaviour that will inevitably lead to unwanted pregnancies and abotions. Teach contraception, fine, but make sure you tell them that most of the “unwanted” pregnancies occur in women who are taking contraceptives.
If you want to teach them ways to prevent abortion, then teach the men to get vasectomies instead. It is nearly 100% effective at stopping unwanted pregnancies. Also, women would not have to expose their bodies to those excessive levels of hormones. I don’t trust the FDA and they have not been around long enough for us to know all the adverse health effects it causes in a woman when used over a prolonged period of time.
Lets say your contraceptive is 90-95% effective. That means if you have sex twenty times you are going to end up pregnant 1 or two of those times.
Posted by: Truthseeker at January 15, 2008 10:20 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Innumeracy reigns…
“That means if you have sex twenty times you are going to end up pregnant 1 or two of those times.”
Probability doesn’t work that way. For each time, you have a (for example) 96% coverage rate. Birth control is not conditional- success/failure rate does not take into account every sexual encounter. Many people use condoms the right way for years and have not yet become pregnant.
Given the fact that people who take abstinence pledges tend to not use birth control at all when they do have sex, 3% pregnancy rate on average is easily a better situation then a 85%.
“If you want to teach them ways to prevent abortion, then teach the men to get vasectomies instead”
i don’t see why CS ed would leave that out. When we say comprehensive we mean everything. Including success and failure rate and how to maximize the success and eliminate failure. How to avoid STDs, how to have sex as safe as possible and within a context of trust and commitment.
Hey there! I have an interesting and honest question. Here in Denver Colorado Families Against Planned Parenthood has started a project called the Collaborator’s Project, which is to target the contractors. I have heard that donations to PP are at record levels due to these home protests. Per Will Duffy’s definition of Collaborator “works jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor”…Doesn’t this make CFAPP collaborator’s themselves, because they are helping to line PP pockets with cash?
Maybe somebody could clarify for me. I am still not clear and I am quite good at math.
**************
Birth control is not conditional-
success/failure rate does not take into account every sexual encounter.
**************
If I have a deck of 100 cards and five of those cards are red, then each time I pick a card from the deck I have a one in twenty chance of picking a red card.
Scott,
Then I guess you better give them the rest of your money. But don’t worry, they’ll still be willing to sell you cheap contraceptives so you can continur having reckless sex and they’ll be happy to kill your children if your girlfriend becomes pregnant. Do something responsible for once in your life, Quit taking treating women like crap and expecting them to get abortions cause your a deadbeat. Take responsibility for where you stick you cock or get a vasectomy.
It’s like in genetics when you make the punnett squares- reality is not like the punnett square because it doesn’t go “well you already had a kid with a heavyset physique–so next time you are less likely to have one.” Instead probability acts on each event separately. So, each sex act should be treated separately. Each time you have sex doesn’t make it more likely the birth control will fail.
Another thing to keep in mind truthseeker is that the statistics don’t really reflect probability in the purest sense. Birth control doesn’t regularly give out a certain amount of the time. There are the reasons it fails when taken properly- but the reasons vary. It’s not like birth control is a slot machine–there are plenty of factors involved, and the statistics such as failure rate don’t necessarily reflect that. We should take this into account.
If I have a deck of 100 cards and five of those cards are red, then each time I pick a card from the deck I have a one in twenty chance of picking a red card.
Posted by: Truthseeker at January 15, 2008 11:00 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now factor-in the other variables. What if those five cards are only red one day out of twenty-eight? How often are you picking a card?
The stats on birth control pills have to do with successful conception taking place when intercourse occurs during perfect conditions. (I’ve also never seen a pill that was ONLY 95% effective.)
Interesting response…it was an honest question, sounds like you’ve had a very bad life. Sounds like you need some anger management classes. Or is it when you hear something you don’t like, your only response is to be defensive? Or is it fear that is making you react?
My fellow commentors:
Let’s face it…”birth control” is a crapshoot.
It’s like telling your preschooler that it’s okay for them to go play out in the middle of the street as long as they wear a helmet. I mean they MIGHT not get hit by a car and the helmet MAY help protect them from a severe head injury…but it’s still something you wouldn’t say is okay to do. In fact, as a parent you would probably do everything in your power to prevent your preschooler from playing in the street. So why, as a parent, would you not try to prevent your teen from engaging in risky behaviors? And I don’t mean just being a dictator-type parent..I mean by being around and involved in their life and helping them get involved in positive extra-cirriculars that take up a lot of their time.
Elizabeth,
I suppose ignorance is bliss.
PIP,
Are you calling me ignorant?
I’m saying that ignoring sex doesn’t make it go away, but it’s easy.
*premarital sex
that sounded weird, but you know what I mean.
Scott,
I did think it was honest. I just thought it was honest and sarcastic.
I never said to ignore it at all…I don’t know why you think I implied that from my comment..but okay..
Elizabeth, you don’t want to give children information about birth control because it’s a “crapshoot.”
Hopefully parents will be like you and help their children avoid risky behaviors.
Regardless, most will have premarital sex, regardless. (what was it 90%)?
Ignoring that fact won’t make it go away. It may make it easier to continue AO education though. That 10% raft sure is pretty.
pip,
Even if it is a per event, that would still mean
a 5% chance each time, which woulkd be the same as saying one time in twenty. Let me know if it really means something else like one in twenty people who use it or something. That is the type of information that I think is very important for people to know.
whoops I am so tired. Forget one of those regardless’s.
There was no sarcasm at all. I’m just wondering if CFAPP has even thought about what is happening with the donations as a direct result of their protests. Wouldn’t one logically think “Oh crap, now they’re making even more money due to us!”
I never said I didn’t want to give children info. about birth control because it is a crapshoot…I just stated that it was. I don’t think teens really *get* how birth control actually works in order to use it correctly. Which means they don’t use it correctly..and EVEN when it is used, it is a crapshoot. It doesn’t really matter, though, because at this stage of life teens are really quite self-centered and think that they are immune to tragedy or dangerous situations. That is why teens engage in risky behavior REGARDLESS of all the birth control that is out there. I don’t really get why you think that shoving all this information in their faces will stop them from having unprotected sex..it hasn’t done much for binge-drinking in teens.
Truthseeker,
failure rates are a statistic, so mainly it is based on the amount of people studied that become pregnant on the birth control. So it would be a per-amount of women. Although it is difficult to treat birth control as a probability in the true sense because of all of the extraneous factors involved let’s look at it in numbers:
It gives us a guide to how effective it is, for example, that in the birth control pill (combination)
1-2 in 100 women would be expected to get pregnant within a year of proper use.
Imagine its proper use of a woman with a properly-used condom by the male (which is 11 in 100 women-assuming without spermicide so if spermicide is added there is more protection there). Most would consider this less than a “crapshoot” so when looked at “probability wise” is good.
When looked at from a human point of view, failure rates may be more broad than predicted, but when used in combination, there are pretty good odds in your favor.
What if a couple practiced periodic abstinence with condom/spermicide and pill?
Whoa. VERY good in terms of numbers; even if you spread it out it is still pretty good. Adding periodic abstinence to the list for example cuts down on some of the factors present (what time of the month etc).
Ok, I think I’ve lost feeling of my brain…it’s time for bed….this site has deprived me of sleep for too long lol.
catch me if I”m confusing, I’m kind of tired, today was rough.
“I don’t think teens really *get* how birth control actually works in order to use it correctly. Which means they don’t use it correctly..and EVEN when it is used, it is a crapshoot. ”
Oh! So maybe the should be taught how birth control works in order to use it correctly?
“EVEN when it is used, it is a crapshoot”
so is riding in or driving a car.
EVEN when you teach them that…they still don’t. Teens think they’re invisible. They’ll never get an STD or get pregnant. Not them. WHY do you think teens have so many car accidents? Or drink to the point of being unresponsive and get alcohol poisoning?
And frankly, a lot of guys that I know (well, knew) think that if a girl is on the pill..they don’t have to use the condom..because REALLY…guys don’t like wearing condoms because it doesn’t “feel” as good. They would probably only use it if the girl made them. And I’m pretty sure that everybody knows about the condom. They just CHOOSE not to be careful. How does education help THAT?
Of course, seatbelts can help a lot.
But again, seatbelts don’t help everyone. People still die in seatbelts.
Airbags also help in conjunction with seatbelts. More liklihood of survival.
But again there is no guarantee you will live because of all the varieties of accidents that can happen. Each accident is a little bit different than the next in terms of speed damage human error, etc.
That is only measuring deaths. What about injuries? Comas?
I guess it’s all or nothing, then?
PIP,
I completely agree with what you said tonight and earlier about AO Education vs. Comprehensive Education.
And actually (to whoever said BC was only 95% effective), it’s 99.9% effective when used correctly, i.e., taking it at the same time every morning. It’s not rocket science here. I take mine every morning at 8:15 when I get up to get ready for work. I’ve been on BC since I was 14, and yes, I’ve had sex, and I’ve never gotten pregnant (::knocks on wood::)…
BC rates of failure are a lot lower than a condom’s failure rate.
People do not want to admit that teens are out having sex, but it happens. We can either ignore the problem, and let them get pregnant or worse, get an STD. Unless we give them the tools to make an educated decision regarding sex, we’re setting them up for failure.
And as for activities outside of school; even kids who do those things have sex. Hell, I was in ballet classes/gymnastics or softball six days a week, and I still had sex. Yes, I realize this is not always the case, but it does happen.
Our society treats sex as this “taboo subject” that no one should talk about. This is the reason teens are so interested in it. The medium age of people loosing thier virginity in this country is 14.5 years old.
Look at the statistics people. Give comprehensive education a chance. AO has proven that it does not work!!
“Teens think they’re invisible. ”
Then teaching any sort of safety is meaningless?
“And I’m pretty sure that everybody knows about the condom.”
They know it exists. Do they know how to use it properly? That they SHOULD use it with the pill if they don’t want to end up owing paternity money?
midnite,
then they shove the AO statistics onto our shoulders for some reason..
Girls can get pregnant long before they comprehend the consequences of getting pregnant.
They shouldn’t be having sex unless they are willing to care reponsibly for the life they create. If they are found to be sexually active the school nurse should be calling the parents…
NOT giving them contraceptives. the day one of my girls gets contraceptives from her school nurse without contacting one of her parents, will be the day I take my girl out of public school.
the day one of my girls gets contraceptives from her school nurse without contacting one of her parents, will be the day I take my girl out of public school.
amen.
Although, I’m not sure I’m going to bother with the public schools to begin with anyway…
we shall see..
pip,
Even if it is a per event, that would still mean
a 5% chance each time, which woulkd be the same as saying one time in twenty. Let me know if it really means something else like one in twenty people who use it or something. That is the type of information that I think is very important for people to know.
Posted by: Truthseeker at January 15, 2008 11:34 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m sorry you failed Eighth Grade Math.
WHY do you think it’s the school’s job to teach your kid anything but to read, write, and do math. Maybe sex wouldn’t be such a *taboo* subject if parents, I don’t know, actually parented and didn’t leave parenting up to the schools who could give 2 craps about your kid.
PIP,
I completely agree. The stats show it doesnt work, yet some people stand by it like it’s 24 carat gold or something.
The other thing that kills me; they think that getting married is the “solution”. Having a piece of paper does not educate a person in safe sex. So even, if they save themselves for when they’re married, they can still wind up accidently pregnant, b/c no one ever bothered to teach them how to properly use BC pills or condoms! So oops! They’ve got a baby the first year they’re married…
“Girls can get pregnant long before they comprehend the consequences of getting pregnant.”
I agree. That’s why I think we should help them comprehend it as much as possible.
“They shouldn’t be having sex unless they are willing to care reponsibly for the life they create.”
Agreed here.
“If they are found to be sexually active the school nurse should be calling the parents…”
Welcome to china..
“the day one of my girls gets contraceptives from her school nurse without contacting one of her parents, will be the day I take my girl out of public school.”
An under 18 girl can’t get prescription contraceptives without their parents. If you are talking about condoms then (or what else? a sponge?), well, they could pick it up from the drugstore at any time without you knowing about it.
“The other thing that kills me; they think that getting married is the “solution”. ”
Might also encourage people to marry too quickly. Then we have more failed marriages.
Elizabeth,
It’s not that it’s the school’s job per see. But, most kids do not feel comftorable enough to talk to their parents about the sex life. I know my friends I didnt talk to our parents about it growing up. Hell, I found out about “that time of the month” from my friends older sister….
If parents and the school formed an alliance to teach kids this stuff, it wouldnt be such a big problem.
Elizabeth-
do you just not want to have any sex ed class at all? That would be consistent with your sentiment that it should be all left up to the parents.
Hey Midnite,
If one is at the age where one can get married…maybe one should educate THEMSELVES about safe sex. :gasp: I know..shocking concept..then who would we have to blame? The government? Schools? No…just one’s inability to become an informed consumer.
Of course elizabeth if you want to take responsibility of that position, I’d have to say doing so would only worsen the problems we have now.
I know a lot of friends who take their friend’s “word for it” on things. Wouldn’t it be more effective if they were taught the facts, straight up, on all issues related to sex?
“No…just one’s inability to become an informed consumer.”
So, you are okay with the statistics concerning STDs and pregnancy?
Elizabeth:
No, it’s not a shocking concept. But I am from Alabama, and a 13 year old can get married here with their parents consent (hell even to their 2nd cousin) if they so wish.
So, no, it is the parent’s, the school’s, and yes even the Government’s responsibility to give children/teens the information they need regarding sex. That way they can make an education decision about their sex life.
Or would you rather the youth of America be killed off by STD’s or having abortions left and right (b/c yes, some parents force kids to have abortions)?
Sounds like a GREAT Country to live in! Sign me up!
PIP,
I think it should be optional…
Maybe we should have a class for the parents AND kids to go to together..or maybe the parents go first to get an explanation of what exactly is being taught or how to teach it to the kids.
**educated decision.
My brain hurts…
Elizabeth, i like the idea of a combined class, though it might be hard to get together (working parents, and busy kids, and all). So I like the consent issue. We’d have less assumptions that “promiscuity is being taught” and more informed children.
Hey, if you would be in favor of comprehensive sex ed with an explanation of what is being taught in class for parents, I am RIGHT BEHIND YOU!
So, you are okay with the statistics concerning STDs and pregnancy?
No I’m not *ok* with it..I just don’t think blaming it on the schools or the government is the way to go. I’ll raise my kid thank you very much. I don’t expect the school or government to instill values in them.
OK, I have to go dry my hair, and then I am going to be before 2:00AM tonight. I NEED SLEEP!!
Pip,
They actually did this at my church..it was called “value your sexuality”
The kids filled out a quiz or test to show their actual knowledge about their bodies and sex to compare it with the FACTS.
I thought it was a good concept.
I really would like the parents and kids doing it together..it would encourage an open line of communication and make it less uncomfortable I think. The parents could also discuss their views on it with their kids so that they don’t get just *one* take on the issue.
Ahh Elizabeth I see what you are saying now.
We aren’t “blaming it on the schools/government” per se, but we think that we can make a difference by educating our children about it in a systematic fashion. The current policy has been abstinence only and it has been the one implemented by the government, and a surgeon general actually got fired because she wanted to talk about masturbation. Nobody got gonorrhea by masturbating.
So what is with blaming the pregnancy/STD rate on “comprehensive sex ed”? If anything balls in your court, AO. You have been attacking us, so we’ve been fighting back. Time for our plan now, you lose.
if for some reason CSE doesn’t work after systematic implementation, then I will want a different strategy then too.
“I really would like the parents and kids doing it together..it would encourage an open line of communication and make it less uncomfortable I think. The parents could also discuss their views on it with their kids so that they don’t get just *one* take on the issue.”
I also think it would be a good idea. I think feasibility will be rough though ;/
I also think it would be a good idea. I think feasibility will be rough though ;/
Which is sad, because for it being such an important issue, parents can’t seem to set aside a little time to really go through this issue in a neutral environment with their children.
I really was going to bed an hour ago..but once again..this site has drawn me in..grrr.
midnite, what cis the name of the ontraceptive that is 99.9% efffective?
lol elizabeth i know the feeling
also elizabeth if all the parents were able to leave work at a certain time they could do it. Or they could make a mandatory in the evening sessions where the kids would be able to make it. It seems difficult to do after the school day but also there are some professions where adults might find it hard to leave at a specific time (like nurses or something). IF there were a way to make it work I’d be willing to help brainstorm it out.
Health & Sex: Birth Control Pills
Birth Control Pill
Taken correctly, birth control pills are up to 99.9% effective at preventing pregnancy. Get the facts in this article.
Birth Control Pill
WHY do you think it’s the school’s job to teach your kid anything but to read, write, and do math. Maybe sex wouldn’t be such a *taboo* subject if parents, I don’t know, actually parented and didn’t leave parenting up to the schools who could give 2 craps about your kid.
Posted by: Elizabeth at January 16, 2008 12:11 AM
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Gee, I thought you studied Theatre and Dance in High School.
How well did your parent’s sex education work for you? Do the results reflect on the quality of their parenting?
some parents may feel it is easier to put their kids on contraception rather then to involve themselves in their childrens affairs. I have girls ages 2.5, 9 and 11. They like to go down and march outside of planned parenthood with me so they are gaining an above average understanding about sexual activity and it’s possible consequences. i will tell them that I do not think it is wise for girls to put hormones into their bodies to prevent pregnancy.
***********
ff, you said “up to 99.9% effective at preventing pregnancy”
That could mean 50% effective. “up to” is a great catch phrase for marketers.Please share with me the name of this 99.9% effective contraceptive
The Birth Control Pill (“The Pill”)
Often called “the Pill”, birth control pills contain two hormones – estrogen and progestin. Birth control pills work by preventing the monthly release of an egg, making pregnancy impossible. The Pill also prevents pregnancy by thickening the mucus of the cervix, making it difficult for sperm to reach both the uterus and fallopian tubes.
One pill is taken daily for 3 weeks, at which point, either the woman stops taking a pill for a week or takes a pill without hormones. It is during the fourth week while the pill is stopped that a women menstruates.
Different kinds of birth control pills contain different amounts of hormones. It is usually recommended that the lowest possible dose required to be effective be taken. Lower doses usually cause fewer potential side effects.
The birth control pill is considered 99.9% effective for those who take it properly. Key to successful use of the Pill is taking it every day and starting a new cycle of pills on time.
The Pill also offers other health benefits in addition to preventing pregnancy. It has been shown to protect against certain cancers, for example. However, some side effects are usually experienced for the first few months of taking the Pill, but usually will subside with continued use. Although serious side effects are rare, the Pill is not usually prescribed for women with diabetes, high blood pressure or who are seriously overweight or obese.
The birth control pill is not for everyone. Do not take the Pill if you have or exhibit any of the following:
Any history of stroke
Thrombophlebitis or thromboembolic disorder or a history of blood clots
Any history of angina, heart attack or heart failure
Any history of kidney disease
Those who are over 35 and smoke
Migraine headaches
High blood pressure
Diabetes
Active gallbladder disease or disease with jaundice
Those over 50 years of age
Immediately following childbirth
Any medications or psychological illness that would prevent taking the medication consistently or correctly
Visit the Reproductive Health Online website, sponsored by Johns Hopkins University for more information about reproductive health and birth control methods. For information on teen sexuality and birth control, visit the Sex Etc. website designed by teens for teens.
some parents may choose to encourage their children to take contraception, I won’t. I will recommend abstinence.
I have girls ages 2.5, 9 and 11. They like to go down and march outside of planned parenthood with me so they are gaining an above average understanding about sexual activity and it’s possible consequences. i will tell them about contraceptives. That some people take contraception to try and keep from getting pregnant. And that contraceptives are hormones that alter the natural rythm cycle of a woman’s body. And that I do not think it is a wise health decision for girls to put hormones into their bodies.
Has anyone seen that episode of House where the chick is in the clinic and tells House that she went on ‘the jelly’ to have sex with her boyfriend? And she had smeared strawberry jam all over her lady parts?
That’s what happens with AO education. Kids hear stuff, don’t get the real facts, and then do stupid things. For example, the basic premise of a condom is pretty easy to get. But if you don’t pinch the tip first, it has a much higher failure rate. Teaching proper use of those types of things would prevent misuse of contraceptives.
Anon,
mk,
“Could you point out where in scripture it says to follow ONLY scripture? If so, then we can talk. If not, then I’m afraid we are starting with two different premises…”
*
—no, I cannot. I have been reading a book by C.S. Lewis lately, (The Best of C.S. Lewis), and I believe his re-printing of a quote from Thomas Erskine of Linlathen in Chapter 11, Christianity and “Religion” sums it up pretty well:
*
“Those who make religion their god will not have God for their religion.”
While that is a beautiful quote, it has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Scripture should be the sole source of your faith. Therefore by your own rules, it doesn’t make sense.
As to interpreting scripture, granted the holy spirit helps when reading the bible, but holy spirit or not, for every 100 men that read the bible, you’ll get 100 interpretations and they can’t all be right.
As to non-denominational..it is misleading because I don’t have a clue who interpreted those scripture passages. The point is, I am a denomination. Perhaps you would like a Catholic Interpretation of the scriptures? These interpretations are after all, meant for everyone.
Why do you think your interpretations are better than the first fathers of the church?
mk, one could come right back with:
how many times in history has the first answer/solution/etc been the correct/most effective/most helpful/etc?
The fact that progression always occurs is typical, and often times is considered better/more effective/etc.
You can look through history and find various examples of this throughout.
I understand your position though, and I’m not challenging you, just giving you what the other side could likely use as an argument (granted, by that argument we’d nearly all be one branch of christian, or muslim, one or the other depending on circumstances)
Man, you go to sleep and miss everything!!!
mk.
“Why do you think your interpretations are better than the first fathers of the church?”
—-They are not my interpretations. It’s God’s word, plain as day. As for the “first fathers” of the church? Oh, you mean those guys that sat around trying to figure out how to appease all people for added power & wealth by blending the pagan rituals with Christianity? No thank you. I’ll stand by God’s word…the rock that I will build my foundation on.
God’s word doesn’t change with time and circumstances. God has and always will be the same. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Can you show me anywhere in scripture that I am not supposed to read it and have the Holy Spirit interpret it for me?
Anon, if thats so true, why are new translations of the Bible coming out so often? How do you square this if God’s word is unchanging, yet translations change and revert back constantly?
Dan, I see it at least partly as a linear progression of language changing, i.e. some of the words in the King James version are now obsolete, etc., for example, as well as different sentence structure now being accepted, (sentences ending with prepositions, split infinitives, etc.), and possible a more literal translation now makes sense/is considered okay.
Also, over the years, haven’t there been advances in realizing how things were, way back when, as well as the discovey of new manuscripts that shed more light on the elder days?
Doug
Dan,
That’s an excellent point and it brings me to another one. Those church Fathers that Anon so graciously disparaged, are the ones that gave her the scriptures she now reads…
Not to mention, for 100 years or so there was no scripture…and for 300 years there was no accepted grouping of scriptures…so what were those people doing?
Anon,
You claim not to interpret your own scriptures and then go on to claim that you DO in fact interpret them with help from the Holy Spirit…
Belonging to a nondenominational church is just another way of saying that you belong to the denomination of nondenomination…which in my opinion is the most watered down, bare bones version of Christianity around. You give me a link to some guy I’ve never heard of that has interpreted scripture and ask that I dismiss 2000 years of teaching and accept HIS interpretations…and then try to tell me that you don’t interpret it, but the Holy Spirit does? Then why are there thousands upon thousands of interpretations of and given scriptural passage?
And why pray tell, was Martin Luther more correct than Augustine? (By the way, calling Augustine a profiteer and power monger is just ridiculous…)
Anon,
The differences between the Catholic Church and protestant churches are so vast in number that I wouldn’t/couldn’t even begin to name them.
The sacraments, Our Lady, the Saints, the Priesthood, the Papacy, and on an on…
Suffice it to say, that I am very happy where I am, and I am very happy with the Catholic Church. I believe that she has the Full Truth and I wouldn’t trade that for all 33,000 protestant denominations combined.
The Eucharist alone is enough to convince me that the Catholic Church is the right one. With all of her mistakes and all of her corruption she has not changed one iota doctrinally. She has neither added nor subtracted from scripture, she has not changed her position on birth control, abortion, marriage, and she is as deep as the ocean and as rich as the rain forests…thanks, but I’ll stay where I am…
Doug,
The Catholics are not the ones that follow sola scriptura…we are not the ones that have a hard time accepting that the bible was not meant as an historical account.
I find it odd that anon is a believer in sola scriptura, when that idea is not even in the bible, and that she believes the Word is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, yet reads a bible that dumped much of scripture. And that she isn’t reading it in the language it was written. If not one word can be changed, if every word is His word, then what the heck was King James doing rewriting it?
Unless the Holy Spirit is translating scripture from Hebrew to English for her, I’m not getting it.
Anon,
I don’t need to find in scripture a place that says you shouldn’t read scripture as everything I believe is not found in scripture…
Regardless, I am not claiming that you shouldn’t read scripture. I read it myself. The difference is I choosed to trust the Catholic interpretation, which tells me that Scripture is only one third of the church…
mk,
question I saw once that I was interested in finding an answer to, that also corresponds to our discussion:
If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, then why did Rome reject or question the inspiration of James and Hebrews then later accept it? Conversely, Rome accepted as scripture books that were later rejected. If the Catholic church really is led by the Holy Spirit so that men can trust her as “God’s organization”, why was she so wrong about something so simple? Should not the “Holy See” have known?
mk,
“I find it odd that anon is a believer in sola scriptura, when that idea is not even in the bible, and that she believes the Word is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, yet reads a bible that dumped much of scripture. And that she isn’t reading it in the language it was written.”
——-
she?
mk,
If sola scriptura cannot be the correct method of determining truth because of the religious division among churches that claim to use sola scriptura, then does this not also disqualify the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches method of using tradition, since they are divided against themselves?
Has anyone seen that episode of House where the chick is in the clinic and tells House that she went on ‘the jelly’ to have sex with her boyfriend? And she had smeared strawberry jam all over her lady parts?
Erin,
That’s what happens when people are just plain stupid…I don’t care if my friend was Einstein himself. If he told me to smear strawberry jam over my lady parts, I would laugh in his face. Some people are just stupid no matter what KIND of education is out there.
Gee, I thought you studied Theatre and Dance in High School.
How well did your parent’s sex education work for you? Do the results reflect on the quality of their parenting?
Actually I studied that in college Laura. But I was actively involved in all those extra-cirriculars in high school as well. And I was an adult when I had my daughter, not a teenager. 20 years old. So it reflects very little on their parenting or sexual education..because I made my adult choice AS an adult.
Anon,
I believe that was Luther that dumped James, not the CC…
If you can give me concrete examples of what you are referring to, I will find you the answers.
Anon,
mk,
If sola scriptura cannot be the correct method of determining truth because of the religious division among churches that claim to use sola scriptura, then does this not also disqualify the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches method of using tradition, since they are divided against themselves?
Why? Orthodox churches are not Catholic any more than baptist churches are Catholic. Unless you are referring to the different “rites” within the Catholic Church?
Anon,
mk,
“I find it odd that anon is a believer in sola scriptura, when that idea is not even in the bible, and that she believes the Word is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, yet reads a bible that dumped much of scripture. And that she isn’t reading it in the language it was written.”
——-
she?
Does this bother you? You have chosen to remain anonymous, and I have chosen to fill in the blanks for the sake of communicating. Feel free to clear up any misconceptions…
mk,
In light of your opinion on Luther, here
mk,
“Does this bother you? You have chosen to remain anonymous, and I have chosen to fill in the blanks for the sake of communicating. Feel free to clear up any misconceptions…”
—-yes it does (hence “anon”) and you know darned well it would, hence your communication with Doug. You are really something else…conversation ends.
Yay my picture is up!
Pip,
And an awesome picture it is!!!
It was taken at my godsister’s wedding :)
Anon,
I have no idea why being called a she would upset you, nor why you think my conversation with Doug makes you think I did it on purpose. Most posters on here are women and I just typed what first came to mind. Never even realized I did it till you pointed it out. It certainly wasn’t meant as a slur.
It makes no difference one way or the other to me or the conversation…you are the one that pointed it out, I was just questioning if it bothered you, so I wouldn’t do it again…chill, I mean really.
Pip,
You look stunning!
Anon,
You are really something else…conversation ends.
Where did that come from?
Fine with me, consider the conversation ended. Tho, I still have no idea what I did…
lol thanks mk!
The Catholics are not the ones that follow sola scriptura…we are not the ones that have a hard time accepting that the bible was not meant as an historical account.
MK, yeah – and I sure don’t think I was criticizing Catholics, there, nor any religions at all.
……
I find it odd that anon is a believer in sola scriptura, when that idea is not even in the bible, and that she believes the Word is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow, yet reads a bible that dumped much of scripture. And that she isn’t reading it in the language it was written. If not one word can be changed, if every word is His word, then what the heck was King James doing rewriting it?
At times the Bible was re-written with an eye toward what the existing political power wanted it to say. As far as really taking it literally, I think that’s really far out there, but to each his own – just don’t try and force it on other people.
And for “the Bible says the Bible is true,” well, I guess this is where the rolling eyes come in.
Doug