The number of comments for this March 7 post reached 330+, and people began having problems entering comments. So I am by this post launching a continuation of that thread. To access the original post and comments, go here.
Read march 7 column, “3rd annual Abortionist of the Year award,” at WorldNetDaily.com.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Part I: ew Stanek WND column, “3rd annual Abortionist of the Year award”
I’m so excited! The National Day of Appreciation for Abortion Providers is just three days away – Saturday, March 10! We will not likely get to celebrate this unholiest of unholy days with the actual dirty deed doers themselves,…
Hi Jill,
did open to right thread but still cannot post ther – here maybe ????????
John, Mary Kay also said she began having trouble posting on that thread. I thought maybe the problem was the number of comments. So, yes, please carry on the conversation here.
got to do some thinking here ……….
many people think the abortion issue is still at the ‘debate’ stage ……. and many of us – who have plugged-along for decades (literally) – are wondering about MAKING this end by making it illegal once again! Won’t happen! {I tend to agree with this because making this practice illegal does not resolve the anguish of many women.}
So I think that a sort-of ‘Truth and Reconciliation’ (South Africa) is needed to begin attending to our many hurts around ‘abortion’. Without doubt … there are many women (and men) on both sides of this issue who have grievances (some severe, that may never be resolved). The plan then is to begin the healing process, even though it is not politically resolved …. What say you?
“To Stephanie,I’m not sure what you meant to say,but I’m glad I’m not your nurse as well.I don’t even have a clue as to what is the matter with you.”
The feeling is mutual, then.
“Not all of you are filled with peace and love and non-violence”
That’s true. There are violent pro-lifers and there are violent pro-choicers. It’s not right, but it’s what happens when discussing such a touchy issue like this.
@Jill: The format of the page went all wonky after someone posted a very long link near the bottom that stretched the page.
@Stephanie: Indeed. Both sides need to remember that a few bad apples are not representative of the entire movement.
@Mom: I’m still waiting on that unbiased source about PAS, it sounds to me like plain old PTSD which can happen from a wide variety of causes.
http://www.lifeandlibertyforwomen.org/gerri_twerdy_santoro.html
Never again.
That’s why it’s legal.
Thank you for that post. I’m extremely saddened for this woman’s story. I’m very close to tears.
:(
Several thoughts that will be blunt.
This woman tragically died as a consequence of her own actions. It was not back alley abortion’s fault she died, it was her own fault. She married what turned out to be scum only a few weeks after meeting him. She then had an affair. She then got pregnant by that guy. She then waited until she was 6-1/2 months pregnant to deal with her pregnancy. Apparently her second choice in men was as bad as her first. The guy tried to commit a late-term abortion on her in a hotel room and then fled the scene, perhaps before she was dead.
Second, to abortion proponents, why do you find it acceptable to show a photo like this and not photos of aborted babies? Furthermore, Ms magazine cared not a whit about this woman. Ms used her. Ms published this photo without the family’s permission. This woman’s two daughters thought she died in a car accident until Ms published the picture with the woman’s name.
Third, no matter if abortion returns from the front alley to the back alley, there will always be illegal abortions. There are illegal abortions now. The former head of NARAL, Bernard Nathanson, admitted pulling numbers out of his hat of women who died by illegal abortions before 1973. Yes, each death was and is tragic. So is each of the verified 1.3 MILLION babies who die each year from legal abortion.
The goal should be to make abortion unthinkable, to stop unwanted pregnancies by promoting respect of women through abstinence, and to return to the days when children were considered blessings, not curses.
here is that allusive post Diana has trouble locating …………
domestic violence does not only happen to women or to females, but to boys as well …. my great-grandfather, my grandfather, my Dad, and me (my sibs) as well, are prime examples. Victim-hood is consigned to the less powerful of either gender.
Such a perception left ‘this victim’ with not tagging-repeating the abuse but attempting a solution. Catherine wrote that ‘MEN’ were the ones who were the people who mostly made up criminal population in prison … all very true. However, her analysis does not take into account that all criminals are adults (and non-senior adults, usually) … and the beginning of criminal behavior is puberty.
All humans, whether male or female seem hardwired to protect. This tendency often gets skewed into several different forms … MACHO is one of these … PRIME-PROTECTOR … yet another is paternalism/maternal-ism.
[Please ::: fill in ::: I am protector … therefore I will (have a right to) kill … – my foe -, – my fetus – , – my intruders – … the army says … to protect our homeland/way of life; Alyssa & many others say … to protect my body integrity – really ‘my control’… [this argument is very tricky for non-native North Americans. All of us, are ‘leeches’ who took land that was not theirs (our ancestors). We are the progeny (the result) of exactly this circumstance.] ; Michael C & Phil + his wife & Jill too say … to protect family (my ideas) At most times, these are mixed so one gets armies … bosses … gallantry, on and on.
THE critical phase that brings all this into the human experience is the onset of puberty. Sorry but PMS is just a small part of this!
Our species has 4 PHASES of very high zinc demand … used for generation.
PHASE 1 (in initial part of pregnancy … begins likely with optic formation at week-5 and ends around wk10;
PHASE 2 is the the months before birth, a finishing touch to the organ systems that will operate differently outside the womb … for example, just 2 days prior to birth the pancreas starts producing insulin in anticipation of the high-sugar content of human-colostrum. Zinc is required to form insulin.
PHASE 3 is the period immediately following birth and finishes the job started in PHASE 2.
There are many consequences to this view … Alyssa is quite right, it seems that both the mother and her fetus/developing-baby need nutrients from a shared pool (zinc). … so while the fetus may suffer from the zinc deficiency in hundreds of different ways, his/her Mom has severe depression.
consequence #2 is that this PHASE is the famous postpartum depression.
consequence #3 is about why this would cause ’emotional-instability’ problems.
A large portion of zinc is in our brain’s cerebellum. This part of the brain is our ‘coordinator’ … so, we have tears when sad or ‘jump for joy’. It also is why males in puberty often cannot coordinate growing and their muscles properly (clumsy walk for gangly teen-boys with acne). At the same time, their zinc is aiding in producing a flood of hormones.
The 4th PHASE of very high zinc use is puberty. For many girls this spells PMS problems [like with emotional instability – mood swings]: for males, this has many forms as well.
The reason that this is written is to ‘solve’ this problem.
Alyssa’s argument sounds OK until you understand this she thinks the act of killing solves anything at all: it is the fundamental mistake of armies … that war solves anything; for pro-choicers that killing babies solves anything… that killing intruders in my home/my body/my family/my whatever solves zip because it does not end.
I read the stories about young women not regretting abortion and many of their Mom’s saying that that had one also. Does it not stop? Violence against women is not acceptable, but violence against a perceived enemy is OK. HELLO!
And Amanda talks only about the consequences of abuse + a bit about its facilitator – booze. Interestingly booze interferes with zinc metabolism any number of ways.
“to abortion proponents, why do you find it acceptable to show a photo like this”
I don’t. It’s disrespectful of human remains the same way that shredding aborted fetuses and arranging them onto coins.
I (somewhat) agree with your end goal but I disagree about the way to get there. I think Clinton put it best, that abortions should be “safe, legal, and rare.” Pro-choicers don’t like abortion any more than pro-lifers, and ideally women who choose not to abstain would not require abortions outside of life-threatening circumstances because proper sex education would have prevented it in the first place.
for Diana re. the rainstorm analogy,
would it fit better to say: this was my-boyfriend’s new bike and had never even seen it before … would such limit intent and pre-existence? The focus is then shifted to the earlier (foolish) behavior and not to its aftermath (a developing child).
And the word is properly: ‘child’ …. medicine also names an infant … a neonate (after-birth) …. Do an infant and the dislodged placenta get equal billing?
“And Alyssa’s knowledge that she was not breast-fed is very telling.
Our species has 4 PHASES of very high zinc demand … used for generation. PHASE 1 (in initial part of pregnancy … likely with optic formation at week-5; PHASE 2 is the the months before birth, a finishing touch to the organ systems that will operate differently outside the womb … for example, just 2 days prior to birth the pancreas starts producing insulin in anticipation of the high-sugar content of human-colostrum. PHASE 3 is the period immediately following birth and finishes the job started in PHASE 2. There are many consequences to this view … Alyssa is quite right, it seems that both the mother and her fetus/developing-baby need nutrients from a shared pool (zinc). … consequence #2 is that this PHASE is the famous postpartum depression. … consequence #3 is about why this would cause ’emotional-stability’ problems. ”
John: Would you mind telling me what my knowledge of “not being breastfed” is very telling of? My perceived immorality according to you? My apparent zinc-deficiency? My dear, what do you think baby formula contains? If it wasn’t meant to mimic the output of a lactating woman, then what’s the point of feeding it to a baby?
There are vitamins for that, you know. Problem solved. No woman has to breastfeed, especially since there’s a shot that prevents lactation.
All pertinent zinc arguments aside, are you going to tell me that all the nutrients that enter a woman’s body are now property of the fetus, because it has a “right” to them? Are you saying that her uterus now becomes property of the fetus/embryo/zygote?
And to Jill: Yes, children should be a blessing, not a curse. But only when they’re wanted and prepared for. Having a child when you’re not prepared is irresponsible in itself. I’m assuming you’ll say “adoption is the option”. Quit pushing “adoption”, too…because it’s often extremely difficult for someone who has just endured nine months of sacrifice and hours of labor to give up what they’ve suffered for. You don’t give any of the women who become pregnant accidentally any credit for the fact that they have to make a difficult decision any way they decide to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
Zurg, I agree with you that showing the body of the woman was disrespectful. However, I believe the article itself was very indicative of the types of atrocious things that might happen AGAIN if Roe v. Wade was overturned.
Keep fighting the good fight, Zurg. I appreciate a guy on our side, especially when guys on the other side love thinking that since we’re women, we deserve to suffer and give up our bodies. *high five*
Hi Alyssa,
this means (like me and others) that at least one major period of zinc was missed. For many of us our emotional balance will be difficult to maintain at times. It has nothing at all to do with morality … but may help explain the mantra-type wording about self knowledge. The human brain has an absolutely incredible operation, but it can be severely restricted in its functioning.
Say one’s thinking capacity is like a classical pinball machine. If severely tilted (zinc deficit) the balls will tend toward just one side … rather than have the whole field to play in. What you understand as ‘normal’ … may not be (for you) ideal. [this is just an observation … what you do about it (if anything) is up to you.]
I posted about this before …. the 50 Million via abortions is small potatoes. How’s about 5/6 of our present global population dead. There is much to do …….. http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?page_id=219
“If it wasn’t meant to mimic the output of a lactating woman, then what’s the point of feeding it to a baby?”
It is indeed meant to mimic the output of a lactating woman, but it’s pyrite to Au. The motivation? Money, of course. But that’s not the issue at hand.
The pic. of the lady and her self induced abortion-I saw this on Donahue so many years ago. What’s the point? She should have known that she could have died from her own actions. There are consequences to our CHOSEN actions.
Zurg,thank you. I agree with you about this pic.
Illegality affected the safety of abortion but it never affected the number of abortions that were performed
………………………………………..
While this story was tragic, it is hardly an argument for legalized abortion. Not committing adultery, being very careful whom you choose to have sex with, and accepting responsibility for your actions would be much better lessons walked away with.
I hardly think that there were 47 million illegal abortions performed before Roe v Wade. One of your biggest complaints is that we make false statements and then refuse to back them up. But you seem to be okay with a statement like the above…seems just a little hypocritical,no?
And if you can “choose” to have an abortion when it is legal, then the above story shows that you can “choose” to have one when it is illegal. Proving once again that your “CHOICE” is really not the issue. I’m pretty sure I could match you story for story of women who have been hurt by “Legal” abortion to women who have been hurt by “Illegal” abortion. Someone on this site said it before. Making abortion legal just gave all the back alley abortionists the right to hang signs on their door. But they are the same depraved men and women after r v wade as before.
It’s not a matter of abortion being legal or illegal. Abortion is wrong, not because it breaks the law of the land, but because it breaks a higher law. The law written on the hearts of every man and woman by God Himself. Evil, in one form or another will always be with us.
What you guys don’t understand (and are quite possibly incapapble of understanding, not due to a lack of intelligence, but a lack of grace) is that there is a spiritual war going on. There is no gray area. You are either fighting (albeit, unwittingly) on the side of evil, or fighting on the side of good. Abortion is an inherent evil. Period. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.
All of the babies who are aborted go straight into the arms Our Lady and Our Lord. The fight is not really so much about them. They are victim souls. The fight is for your souls. The fight is for our country. The fight is for the world. As Father Corapi says, we’ve read the book and we know the ending. We win. But all these conversations are to give you guys a chance to join the winning team. You say we don’t care about women, but I say we care about you very much. So much so that we are willing to engage in battles such as these to try to save you from yourselves.
I know this sounds nuts, but stop and ask yourselves…what do we get out of this? Money? Not. Glory. Yeah, right! Power? Puhlease! The only thing we get is the satisfaction of knowing that we are on the right side in the most serious war to have taken place since the beginning of time. And our weapons are prayer, faith and God himself.
We can’t prove what we are saying, but we don’t have to. The truth will out eventually. God help those of you who don’t hear it sooner rather than later. God have mercy on your souls. God have mercy on this poor, broken world. God have mercy on the woman in the story above. Mercy. Because when Mercy ends, justice begins…
MK
“Abortion is wrong, not because it breaks the law of the land, but because it breaks a higher law. The law written on the hearts of every man and woman by God Himself.”
What is the law of the land? Also, I don’t believe in your God or his higher law. What now?
“So much so that we are willing to engage in battles such as these to try to save you from yourselves.”
Thanks for the thought, but you really shouldn’t meddle in other people’s business and claim it’s for their own good. I’m sure those other people are perfectly capable of fending for themselves.
“We can’t prove what we are saying, but we don’t have to. The truth will out eventually. God help those of you who don’t hear it sooner rather than later. ”
If this is so, then let your God do the judging, not you. The truth will come out eventually, so bide your time and you can laugh your ass off at the people who were wrong.
What is the law of the land? Also, I don’t believe in your God or his higher law. What now?
——————————————–
The law of the land is the law of the land. Whatever laws are on the books in the land where you are…
You don’t have to believe in our God. God does not require your belief. Desire it? Yes. Require it? No.
……………………………………..
Thanks for the thought, but you really shouldn’t meddle in other people’s business and claim it’s for their own good. I’m sure those other people are perfectly capable of fending for themselves.
Should I not feed the hungry? Free the enslaved? Visit the sick? Would this be called meddling? What about the drug addict who can’t see the mess he’s in? That is what law is all about. Meddling in the lives of those who can’t control themselves. If everyone behaved properly, we would need no law of the land.
And in reaching out to you, I am also saving myself. I too have to live in this world. If you were my roommate and a complete slob, your disorder would affect me. So selfishly, I wish to enlighten you, as this would help clean up my space also.
………………………………………….
If this is so, then let your God do the judging, not you. The truth will come out eventually, so bide your time and you can laugh your ass off at the people who were wrong.
My God will do the “judging”. The final judging.
And it would never even occur to me to laugh my ass off at someone elses misfortune. Apparently, however, you would. How sad. We in the church, mourn Judas. We are saddened by his choice. But we did not judge him. He judged himself.
You use the word judge like it is a bad thing. Do you use an umbrella when it rains. You’ve judged the environment and deduced you needed protection from it that day. If you went to a bar and a man approached you that set off your inner alarm system, would you go home with him? No, because you judged him. There is a difference between judging a persons actions and condemning the person himself. That’s the whole point. We are hoping to spare you from condemnation. Not push you towards it. As for why would we when you don’t want it? Again, I benefit as well. But like the two year old with the knife, sometimes people need a little help to see the damage they are doing to themselves and others…
ZuRG
You state that “pro-choicers don’t like abortion any more than pro-lifers”. Why don’t you like abortion?
Thanks for finding that post, Jill.
“Alyssa & many others say … to protect my body integrity – really ‘my control’… [this argument is very tricky for non-native North Americans. All of us, are ‘leeches’ who took land that was not theirs (our ancestors). We are the progeny (the result) of exactly this circumstance.] ; Michael C & Phil + his wife & Jill too say … to protect family (my ideas) At most times, these are mixed so one gets armies … bosses … gallantry, on and on.”
The case of colonists who “leeched” land from the native americans seems analogous in some ways to that of a pregnancy. But there is one crucial difference that makes the cases disanalogous. There is a difference between the right to one’s private property in the case of land and the right to bodily autonomy/integrity. I think this difference is reflected in many of our laws. The government can take your land, for instance (it’s wrong, and I don’t like it) but they can’t take your uterus. Sadly, there are laws that don’t respect this difference. But even Marx recognized our right to bodily autonomy was distinct (and much more precious) than our right to private property. Alienation of labor, for him, was alienation of the self, and this was one of his major reasons for thinking that capitalism was wrong.
Even if we were to grant the analogousness of these cases, however (and remember, to do so, the woman is akin to the *group* of native americans and the fetus is akin to the *group* of colonists). Just out of curiosity, you don’t think that the native americans had a right to kick the colonists off their land? Seems like that’s okay. After all, you have a right to kick a trespasser off your land, and you have that right even if kicking him off your land would mean his death from hypothermia elsewhere. It might be nice to let him stay. But nice does not mean obligatory.
“would it fit better to say: this was my-boyfriend’s new bike and had never even seen it before … would such limit intent and pre-existence? The focus is then shifted to the earlier (foolish) behavior and not to its aftermath (a developing child).”
John, I’m not sure I see the analogy anymore. If it is my boyfriend’s bike, what irresponsible act did I commit that caused it to come into existence? Perhaps you could re-explain the case to me in full detail, so that I can see the analogy.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the point of this case was to show that it is unreasonable to destroy something that is the result of your irresponsible action. So how about the following case: You have two rabbits, a male and a female. One night, you foolishly leave the door between their cages open (have unprotected sex). Before you know it, there are bunnies all over the cage (being takes up residence). Note that the bunnies are the result of your foolish action. It seems pretty unreasonable to kill the bunnies just because you left the cage door open, doesn’t it? It’s not their fault after all.
My immediate response would be. Unreasonable? I don’t know. It might be mean of you, or indecent, to put the bunnies to sleep. But it doesn’t seem like you have an obligation to keep them up.
In the end, even if this case does give you your intended conclusion – that it is unreasonable to destroy something that was the result of your foolish action, – it is still not analogous to pregnancy, since there is no violation of bodily autonomy. That, after all, is the main sticking point for some, and we believe it changes the score. Still, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this case shows us something more.
“And the word is properly: ‘child’ …. medicine also names an infant … a neonate (after-birth) …. Do an infant and the dislodged placenta get equal billing?”
The word for what is properly ‘child’? I’m confused. All I claimed was that medically, it’s an embryo until 8 weeks and a fetus from then until birth. That’s all. As for the placenta and the infant (I’m assuming you mean born, here) getting equal billing. Of course not. Why would they? The infant is an independent being who now officially has rights, and the placenta is an organ (which, thanks to Jill, we now know belongs to the mother) that’s served its purpose.
Well, I’ve got to leave for a while and go be a student. Jill, I’ll try to have that email to you by next week.
So many women feel that having a child would get in their way of having an education. I know of many women that gave birth to their “unplanned” children and accomplished their career goals anyway.Going to school is not a good reason to terminate your pregnancy. You may not be able to finish on your terms/time,but maybe instead of us always trying to be in control of everything-God may have a better plan for you.I have more respect for the women that say “I can do both” They kicked butt,became mothers and got that diploma!
@Mary: Well, why would I? Even if it’s an incredibly important priority for women to have bodily autonomy restored, it comes at a great cost. Doesn’t mean pro-choicers have champagne and a barbecue, it’s the lesser of two evils–but, until there’s a substitute for abortion, a necessary evil.
Diane,
If we go with the premise that an unborn child does indeed fit the criteria for personhood, then why does one person’s rights override the others. What would be your decision in the case of ‘born’ siamese twins?
It’s not that the mother’s rights override the fetus’s, it’s that the fetus’s rights don’t override the rights of the mother’s.
glad you found this thread, Diana:
Re. the use of the word ‘child’- the term is species-specific (so much so, that my mother forbade us to use the term ‘kid’ for human children.) ‘fetus’ is a proper medical term, but it is only time-specific and not species-specific. [So, any mammal of a certain age is a fetus, but there is no (comparable medical term for an unborn human) … person-hood then must-be the result of the age-marker of a living ‘being’ (birth or another marker) and not because of his/her species … ‘human’?]
The analogy was originally that a woman rode her bike on a very cloudy day. And then (not liking to get wet) destroyed the bike. You thought that the rain was more analogous because she would only react by drying herself … her protection was a poncho (your addition) but proved ineffective. I much prefer the use of the bike …. but the difference was that is was now wet (needed demolishing). [this (to me) is a more appropriate analogy of response (very irrational), than drying one’s hair.]
The second bit about being the progeny of people who unknowingly (and in many cases) stole America from native peoples …. not only land but the land’s nutrients too. This seems remote but is the very predicament many of present-day refugees. They have to come to a safer place or die. Can a person claim humanity with rights, and deny the same to another human (and feel justified by the refusal to assist)? Is this what happened to many Jewish people in Nazi Germany? Your bunnies are not human peers …. so a solution (putting-to-sleep) is within our grasp …. this distinction fades if we are speaking of peers. Are people who help, fools (religious nuts) or heroes?
DoctorDefense,
If pro-choicers were to finally get fed up and start fighting back I imagine they would go after some of the people who run these disgusting web pages that martyr these terrorists and regard their actions as ‘heroic’. That or some of the ‘sidewalk counselors’ as the pro-lifers on this board like to call them. Although I wouldn’t call anyone screaming at a young woman “Your a filthy whore who will burn for this,” a counselor by any means. More like a degenerate prick who should suffer a massive coronary and keel over.
And as far as PAS goes, like a few other people on here have indicated, it is a creation of the pro-life movement. More propaganda. What a shocker.
More like a degenerate prick who should suffer a massive coronary and keel over.
I’m sorry…you were saying something about name calling and violence…
“And it would never even occur to me to laugh my ass off at someone elses misfortune. Apparently, however, you would.”
I would? How did you figure that one out? You’re kind of funny.
Zurg,
It’s not that the mother’s rights override the fetus’s, it’s that the fetus’s rights don’t override the rights of the mother’s.
I believe in chess this is called a stalemate. You are correct the babies rights don’t override the mothers. The mothers rights don’t override the babies.
It just is what is is. So you cope. You don’t take away the weaker persons rights just because you are bigger and stronger.
While this is a unique situation and I agree that the child is dependent on the mother, (which makes analogies so hard) this still does not give you the right to end another persons life. This is what was done to Terry Schiavo. One person decided she was worth less than they were and that she didn’t deserve to live because she was a leach. Do you people hear yourselves?
Even if it is a baby, kill it anyway.
No one can tell me what to do with my uterus.
I’m not responsible for getting pregnant, sheesh all I did was have sex.
Don’t even bring up adoption. I’d sooner suck the kid through a vacuum cleaner hose than give it someone else. How could I live with the pain of giving up my own child?
Even if, God forbid, you could argue that you had the legal right commit such a horrendous act how do you in good conscience argue that you have the moral right?
I inadvertantly hit the nail on the head there…I am beginning to seriously doubt that any of you have a conscience at all. When I listen to you, I swear I feel like I’m talking to patients on a Psych. ward…the psychopathic wing…twist the truth, take no blame, do whatever you need to do as long as you are not inconvenienced. My heart breaks for you, it really does.
It’s such unbelievable selfish thinking that if it wasn’t so tragic it would be laughable.
Stephanie,
you said: If this is so, then let your God do the judging, not you. The truth will come out eventually, so bide your time and you can laugh your ass off at the people who were wrong.
I’m assuming this was an original thought and not someone elses. Therefore you had the thought of laughing my *#$ off at the people who were wrong.
I said, it would never occur to me to laugh at their misfortune. Unlike you I don’t see this as an I win, you lose situation. I see this as an “I wish we all could win” situation…To discover that people had chosen a life style that sent them to an eternity in hell does not give me pleasure. It breaks my heart. I don’t hope all of you die and get your just rewards. I hope you all come to your senses and we can one day meet in the afterlife, in heaven.
I have often wondered where all the anger on the pro choice side comes from…it seem like you are unable to discuss anything without accusations, profanity and hateful verbal assaults…why is that? Would you laugh your *#( off at me if in the end I was punished for my point of view?
“med-dle
verb (used without object), -dled, -dling.
to involve oneself in a matter without right or invitation; interfere officiously and unwantedly”
So no, feeding the hungry, freeing the enslaved, and visiting the sick is not meddling, if the hungry, enslaved, and sick have no objections. Same with the drug addict. It doesn’t matter what intentions you have; if it’s unwanted, it’s meddling.
You make a point about judging and condemnation.
As for the two year old with a knife; a grown woman is capable of making her own decisions.
“Would you laugh your ass off at me if in the end I was punished for my point of view?”
Nope. I really and truly wouldn’t. And when have I attacked you? If it seemed like I did, I’m sorry. I was being facetious.
Nope. I really and truly wouldn’t. And when have I attacked you? If it seemed like I did, I’m sorry. I was being facetious.
No problem then.
You make a point about judging and condemnation.
As for the two year old with a knife; a grown woman is capable of making her own decisions.
Then why are there any laws at all?
Mary Kay,I am following everything you say.It boils down to a person’s conscience. What’s inside that heart or head of theirs? What has this world come to? If we don’t respect the unborn then what next? Are we going to eventually be accepting of infanticide,incest,grown men and women having sex with minors? What next? Rape,robbing,murder?Should we just disgard the sick,homeless,and the elderly? This nation needs help!!
Also, alot of seial killers have their own justifications for their murderous deeds.None ever really appeared to be very sorry and some even said they would do it again.Take a look at a Charles Manson interview and see how twisted he still is with the way he thinks.
“I believe in chess this is called a stalemate. You are correct the babies rights don’t override the mothers. The mothers rights don’t override the babies.”
Yes, the mother’s rights do override the baby’s rights. Let’s do a side-by-side analogy. You drive a car. You have sex. You are licensed to drive and you wear a seat belt. You have sex while properly using birth control. There’s a chance you’ll get into a car accident. There’s a chance you’ll get pregnant. This chance of a car accident is small, so you’re willing to risk it. This chance of pregnancy is small, so you’re willing to risk it. You get into a catastrophic car accident. You get pregnant. (Work with me for a minute) someone involved in the car crash needs a kidney to live, and you are a perfect match (and have two healthy kidneys, you can live without one). The z/e/f needs the mother’s uterus and nutrients to live.
In the case of the car crash, you do not have to give up your kidney, even if they will die as a result of your inaction, if you don’t want to. It’s your right to bodily autonomy to not be an organ factory if you don’t want to, even if you can spare a kidney here, a lung there, some bone marrow on the side. But that doesn’t stop voluntary kidney donors or marrow donors from helping out those that they can. Likewise, no woman should have to give up usage of her uterus and nutrients, put herself at the inherent risks of even the healthiest, most routine pregnancy, to be a baby cannon if she doesn’t want to. It’d be a violation of her bodily autonomy. But that doesn’t stop women (even pro-choice women, because it is a choice that every woman must make for herself) from carrying pregnancies, both planned and unexpected, to term.
You see where we’re coming from?
“The pic. of the lady and her self induced abortion-I saw this on Donahue so many years ago. What’s the point? She should have known that she could have died from her own actions. There are consequences to our CHOSEN actions.”
I just saw this and it reminded me of abstinence-only education. Let’s change a few words in that sentence. “She should have known that she could’ve gotten chlamydia from her own actions. There are consequences to our chosen actions.” Abstinence-only education didn’t tell our arbitrary subject anything but not to have sex. It didn’t tell her about the risk of chlamydia or neutralizing that risk with proper condom use. Now what? (Speculation:) The law never told her anything but not to have an abortion. Now what?
If she “should have known”, then what are we accomplishing by not telling her? There’s obvious, inherent risks to back-alley abortions and there’s obvious, inherent risks to having unprotected sex.
I just had a thought that made my day. I can’t wait for someone to sue a school district because abstinence-only sex education didn’t tell them they could get HIV, and be ordered to pay the person’s medical bills.
ZuRG,
by George … you dood it agin! …. screwed-up royally!
Your analogy properly equates a car accident and pregnancy. A result of the car accident is kidney damage … then a result of pregnancy is abortion … I don’t think so, the natural result of pregnancy is birth of a living baby.
You are wrongly mixing analogies. Say a kidney goes bad (from accident, cancer, etc) and replacement is needed to survive. Bodily autonomy of the donor IS of the foremost importance. But such a scenario is not at all the situation of pregnancy. Any child is dependent for its sustenance and that’s what being pregnant means.
If we could pick and choose what we approved of in pregnancy then we could pick and choose the parts of a auto accident … a woman is either pregnant or she ain’t …. a car accident has often no element of ‘did or didn’t, it happen’.
@John: You completely missed my point, while managing to say exactly what I was trying to say. I wasn’t saying (or even mentioning at all) that abortion is a consequence of pregnancy, I was talking about bodily autonomy.
“Bodily autonomy of the donor IS of the foremost importance. … Any child is dependent for its sustenance and that’s what being pregnant means.”
You’re right, that’s exactly what being pregnant means. So if a mother doesn’t consent to supply this sustenance, she has the legal right to reclaim her bodily autonomy by having an abortion.
ZuRG,
You didn’t answer my question. Why don’t pro-choicers like abortion? Why do you call it the lesser of two evils? Please be specific as to what it is you don’t like and why.
I won’t speak for all pro-choicers, but personally I don’t like abortion because of the potential that gets squandered as a result of what’s currently the only way for a woman to reclaim her bodily integrity from an unwanted pregnancy.
Lesser of two evils:
Bad thing: potential human being being disposed of as a result of restoring a woman’s bodily autonomy.
Worse thing: Woman has bodily autonomy violated because she cannot vacate an entity residing in her body, consuming her resources, and putting her at risk for a myriad of complications possible from even the healthiest, most routine pregnancy, without her consent.
So, being forced to choose, I choose the former.
I will say on behalf of pro-choicers that even though we condone women making the decision that is correct for them, we acknowledge that it’s a very significant life event that needs to be treated as such. I don’t know who started this, but a good number of pro-lifers I interact with seem to think that the motivation is killing babies, and that every abortion is a jubilee that’s followed up with a bottle of champagne and a barbecue (and the barbecue is no coincidence, no sir!). It’s not like that. Pro-choicers are people too, I promise.
Correction: condone abortion, encourage women making the choice that’s right for them.
ZuRG,
Why can a woman reclaim body integrity after she becomes pregnant, isn’t that like trying to regain health (post accident) without the healing? The natural consequence of pregnancy is birth.
Even if she did not wish either the pregnancy nor the car accident … it would be foolish to assume there would not be consequential results from such an intervention. There may indeed be some who do not experience problems and some of these may not experience any regret at all.
Are people like these are somehow ‘different’ than others who have had abortions? Can you say beforehand which people will be affected by abortion? [I remember a friend of mine who fell-apart when her hubbie died. Even she was surprised by the strength of her reaction.]
This is the consequences to the woman, the consequences to the child [see my post(above) to Diana] is almost always death … only is some cases with pain, but always death.
And we haven’t even touched on the use of sex-selection nor disability selection as criteria for …. Are your lives too good to share?
“Why can a woman reclaim body integrity after she becomes pregnant”
Because it’s her body.
“Are people like these are somehow ‘different’ than others who have had abortions? Can you say beforehand which people will be affected by abortion?”
Of course not, everybody’s different. But it helps if they weren’t coerced into the abortion. Even if she would have arrived at the same choice, if it wasn’t her choice yet, it’s still her body and not having control over something that personal can really mess with a person.
ZuRG,
It seems to me you’re using a lot of words to say only that you do find the destruction of a “potential” human life distateful. At what point does “potential” turn into human life and what genetic changes take place to cause this? I’m very curious since everything we are now was determined at the moment of our conception.
Does a newborn child consume the resources of the mother any less? I found being pregnant considerably easier and less demanding than caring for a newborn.
Health risks of pregnancy? What exactly are the health risks you refer to? Frankly, with modern medical care and technology, the health risks of pregnancy are minimized.
In another post you say “condone abortion, encourage women making the choice that’s right for them”. I thought you didn’t like abortion, but you condone it?
Autonomy and control of the body? Its frightening to realize just how little control we may have over what happens to our bodies. Illness, accidents, assaults, sudden death.
A woman could reclaim her body after pregnancy-How about giving the child up for adoption? It is possible.
Zurg,
“Yes, the mother’s rights do override the baby’s rights.”
Why?
And I refuse to do the analogy thingy any more. Not only does it make my head hurt, but comparing pregnancy to bike rides, prowlers and car accidents makes my heart hurt.
I don’t there is an analogy that can be used because I think being pregnant is a completely unique situation…one more reason why it is so precious.
The bottom line is: If you have sex, you can get pregnant. If you get pregnant you must take responsibility for your actions. If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex. Period.
As to your abstinence only theory, where are you coming up with whole “don’t tell them about std’s or HIV”. Do we sound like morons to you? Of course you tell kids about these things. They are one of the strongest arguments we have against promiscuous sex. Why would we leave them out?
“Bad thing: potential human being being disposed of as a result of restoring a woman’s bodily autonomy.
Worse thing: Woman has bodily autonomy violated because she cannot vacate an entity residing in her body, consuming her resources, and putting her at risk for a myriad of complications possible from even the healthiest, most routine pregnancy, without her consent.”
I can’t believe that when you read what you wrote you actually mean it…it’s just too barbaric. A woman’s bodily autonomy is worth more than a human life? I am left speechless…and sick.
MK
The 1913 Webster’s dictionary defines conscience in the modern sense as
* the faculty power, or inward principle which decides as to the character of one’s own actions, purposes, and affections, warning against and condemning that which is wrong, and approving and prompting to that which is right;
* the moral faculty passing judgment on one’s self;
The human animal has a set of instincts and drives which enable us to form societies. These drives are a result of natural selection: groups of humans without these drives, or in whom they are insufficiently strong, cannot form cohesive societies and do not reproduce their kind as successfully as those that do. They either cannot survive in nature, or are defeated in conflict with other, more cohesive groups.
A requirement of conscience, then, is the capacity to see ourselves from the point of view of another person. Persons unable to do this (those suffering
from narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy)
therefore often act in ways which are “evil”.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
# “To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.” – A Short History of England, Ch.10 G K Chesterton
# “Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” – ILN, 4/19/30 GK Chesterton
# “Most modern freedom is at root fear. It is not so much that we are too bold to endure rules; it is rather that we are too timid to endure responsibilities.” – What’s Wrong With the World
GK Chesterton
LoL-He only went back to abortion work because he needed the $. Nobody else in the medical field wants him. He killed Christen Gilbert. He has decieved many others.I don’t even reside in Kansas,but now whenever I think about it,I think of it as the abortion capital. I understand that there lots of cover ups and pay offs going on @ present. They are trying to bring charges against the guy as we speak.
Let’s try this again.
“At what point does “potential” turn into human life and what genetic changes take place to cause this? I’m very curious since everything we are now was determined at the moment of our conception.”
When does it become a person and get rights? When it’s born. When do fetal rights get a lot more solid? After viability. I don’t like people falling back on conception because 1 in 2 fertilized eggs never implant and 1 in 3 implanted embryos spontaneously abort, usually in the first three months.
“Health risks of pregnancy? What exactly are the health risks you refer to? Frankly, with modern medical care and technology, the health risks of pregnancy are minimized.”
Pre-eclampsia, eclampsia, iron deficiency leading to anemia, gastroesophageal reflux disease, ectopic pregnancy, etc. It also (somewhat arrogantly) assumes that every woman has the same access to medical care that you do. Not everyone has health insurance.
And, B) “Legal-abortion mortality between 1979 and 1985 was 0.6 death per 100,000 procedures, more than 10 times lower than the 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births between 1979 and 1986. Serious complications from legal abortion are rare.” // Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 268 No. 22, December 9, 1992. A textbook says it’s since dropped to 0.3, which is half the rate of a tonsillectomy and 1/100th the rate of an appendectomy.
“In another post you say “condone abortion, encourage women making the choice that’s right for them”. I thought you didn’t like abortion, but you condone it?”
Condone was not the best word for me to use. I don’t like abortion, but that doesn’t mean that it’s never the best option. It’s up to each woman to evaluate her situation and choose what’s right for her.
“Autonomy and control of the body? Its frightening to realize just how little control we may have over what happens to our bodies. Illness, accidents, assaults, sudden death.”
So why are you trying to prevent women from the possibility of reclaiming a little bit in this hectic world?
“A woman could reclaim her body after pregnancy-How about giving the child up for adoption? It is possible.”
It is, yes. But even a routine, healthy pregnancy is expensive. A first-hand account posted said each doctor appointment was over $100 and there was an appointment per month in months 2-6, twice a month in 7-8, and every week until birth afterward. That’s $1300+, and birth itself costs $8000 vaginally or $12000 for a c-section (and you don’t get to choose). This doesn’t take into consideration maternity clothes, vitamin supplements, extra food being consumed, etc.
“”Yes, the mother’s rights do override the baby’s rights.” Why?”
Because the fetus’ right to life does not trump the mother’s right to bodily autonomy. It’s her body.
“If you get pregnant you must take responsibility for your actions.”
It always cracks me up when pro-lifers say this. If a couple is not collectively responsible enough to properly use birth control, you think they can handle a BABY? That’s how newborns end up in public bathrooms and dumpsters, and it’s deplorable.
“Do we sound like morons to you?”
…
“They are one of the strongest arguments we have against promiscuous sex. Why would we leave them out?”
I’ve admittedly never received abstinence-only education, but if it worked, why wouldn’t wagging your finger and saying “Don’t have sex! Okay, good. Moving on…” be enough in and of itself?
“A woman’s bodily autonomy is worth more than a human life? I am left speechless…and sick.”
That’s why abortion is regulated, after 20-24 weeks it becomes nearly impossible to have an abortion outside of life-threatening circumstances. If abortion isn’t for you, feel free to never, ever have one. That’s your choice, but it’s not the right choice for everyone.
“A requirement of conscience, then, is the capacity to see ourselves from the point of view of another person. Persons unable to do this (those suffering from narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy) therefore often act in ways which are “evil”.”
I love the irony here. See previous point, and visit http://imnotsorry.net .
“He only went back to abortion work because he needed the $.”
If it was about the money, why didn’t he go into cosmetics? Two more facts from that textbook:
1) In 84% of the counties in the U.S., no physicians are willing or able to provide abortions. 2) Only 12% of OB/GYN residency programs in the U.S. offer routine training in abortion procedures.
Nobody’s an OB/GYN for the money.
Taken from the page on Tiller in wiki:
“Christin Gilbert, a 19-year-old woman with Down Syndrome from Keller, Texas, died in January 2005 after a multi-day abortion procedure performed at Dr. Tiller’s facility, though reports conflict as to whether the abortion was performed by Tiller himself or by Dr. Leroy Carhart. Gilbert had been 28 weeks pregnant. The autopsy stated that Gilbert died of sepsis following the abortion.[7] Tiller was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Kansas Board of Healing Arts. After a petition from Operation Rescue, a grand jury was convened to probe the death.[8][9] The grand jury also cleared Dr. Tiller of all charges.”
A) It’s not even certain that he performed the abortion in question.
B) She died of sepsis, the immune response to a massive infection.
C) He was cleared of wrongdoing.
D) When pro-lifers made some noise about it, they looked again. He was cleared of wrongdoing. Again.
What does it take?
“”Yes, the mother’s rights do override the baby’s rights.” Why?”
Because the fetus’ right to life does not trump the mother’s right to bodily autonomy. It’s her body.
Uh huh…
and if I said: “Yes, the baby’s rights do override the mother’s rights. Why? Because the mothers right to bodily autonomy does not trump the baby’s right to life.
You, see, you have simply restated your position, but you have not told me why. Why is the mother’s rights (which by the way, I believe is a liscense and not a right) trump the baby’s?
MK
They are one of the strongest arguments we have against promiscuous sex. Why would we leave them out?”
I’ve admittedly never received abstinence-only education, but if it worked, why wouldn’t wagging your finger and saying “Don’t have sex! Okay, good. Moving on…” be enough in and of itself?
……………………………………………..
If you took the time to read “Theology of the Body” you might realize and understand that there is a WHOLE philosophy on why abstinence is the “only” way. You don’t seem to realize that while we are opposed on the abortion issue, in all other respects we are on your side. We want you to have what we know will bring you happiness. Not momentary happiness, but a happiness that starts in your bone marrow and reaches your heart. We love you (in the Christian sense of the word) and truly spend all this time because we care enough to offer you an alternative. We are not a cult. We don’t discourage questions. We don’t ask you for your life savings. We are the church. She lives and breathes and teaches. One of the things she teaches (and you are too stubborn to even consider) is that sex is awesome. Beautiful. Heartstopping. But that it must be treated with total respect if it is to work properly.
If you owned the Mona Lisa you wouldn’t leave her out in the rain. You would treasure her. You would cherish her. And protect her. You would hang her in the most honored spot in your home. Why? Because you would recognize her inherent worth and realize that she would be rendered useless if she was abused. Leonardo’s signature went on the Mona Lisa. God’s signature went on you. Both are a work of art. Both deserve to be treated as such.
No we don’t just wag our finger and say don’t do it.
We scream from the hilltops “DO IT!” but do it well. Do it the way it was meant to be done. And maybe if you’re lucky, one day you can meet the Artist.
MK
“A woman’s bodily autonomy is worth more than a human life? I am left speechless…and sick.”
That’s why abortion is regulated, after 20-24 weeks it becomes nearly impossible to have an abortion outside of life-threatening circumstances. If abortion isn’t for you, feel free to never, ever have one. That’s your choice, but it’s not the right choice for everyone.
……………………………………………
Taken from the page on Tiller in wiki:
“Christin Gilbert, a 19-year-old woman with Down Syndrome from Keller, Texas, died in January 2005 after a multi-day abortion procedure performed at Dr. Tiller’s facility, though reports conflict as to whether the abortion was performed by Tiller himself or by Dr. Leroy Carhart. Gilbert had been 28 weeks pregnant. The autopsy stated that Gilbert died of sepsis following the abortion.[7] Tiller was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Kansas Board of Healing Arts. After a petition from Operation Rescue, a grand jury was convened to probe the death.[8][9] The grand jury also cleared Dr. Tiller of all charges.”
A) It’s not even certain that he performed the abortion in question.
B) She died of sepsis, the immune response to a massive infection.
C) He was cleared of wrongdoing.
D) When pro-lifers made some noise about it, they looked again. He was cleared of wrongdoing. Again.
And you want to talk about irony? Look up Mr. Tillers web site. He’ll tell you all about how he’ll give you a late term abortion.
Abortion is legal up until the moment that child is born. There just aren’t any doctors willing to take on the risks. It’s not that I couldn’t legally have an abortion at 28 or 39 weeks, it’s that I wouldn’t be able to find a doctor that was willing to risk his ‘precious” practice doing it.
And have you seen a baby at 24 weeks in utero? You think this is okay? The word “monster” comes to mind. As in Hannibal Lecter…
mk
“A requirement of conscience, then, is the capacity to see ourselves from the point of view of another person. Persons unable to do this (those suffering from narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy) therefore often act in ways which are “evil”.”
I love the irony here. See previous point, and visit http://imnotsorry.net .
Hello? Anybody out there? You just proved my point. I’m not sorry? As in I have no conscience? As in psychopathic behavior? As in “I just killed my baby, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt”?
And don’t even start with the “It’s a necessary evil” spiel…please, is rape a necessary evil because it relieves the rapists need? Is theft a necessary evil because it got the thief what he needed?
There is NO SUCH THING AS A NECESSARY EVIL! EVIL IS EVIL IS EVIL…
I want…I want…I want…
Me first…me first….me first…
No, Sally, wait your turn. The other children have rights too. No Johnny, you can’t have the biggest piece of cake. No Annie, you musn’t push Mary just because you want her dolly.
A civilization is only civilized according to it’s civility…
“A woman could reclaim her body after pregnancy-How about giving the child up for adoption? It is possible.”
It is, yes. But even a routine, healthy pregnancy is expensive. A first-hand account posted said each doctor appointment was over $100 and there was an appointment per month in months 2-6, twice a month in 7-8, and every week until birth afterward. That’s $1300+, and birth itself costs $8000 vaginally or $12000 for a c-section (and you don’t get to choose). This doesn’t take into consideration maternity clothes, vitamin supplements, extra food being consumed, etc.
Did you know that there are now more non-abortion crisis pregnancy centers that there are abortion clinics? They will give you a FREE pregancy test. They will get you signed up to recieve free medical care. They will supplyyou with playpens, diapers, strollers, etc…
Our church just raised 12,000.00 dollars for the womens center near us.
Couples seeking private adoption often pay for the womans care while she is carrying the child.
I was adopted.
I am glad.
If I wasn’t, I wouldn’t be here writing this.
You probably wish I wasn’t. (here writing this, not adopeted.)
Oh well.
Life is funny that way.
MK
“Did you know that there are now more non-abortion crisis pregnancy centers that there are abortion clinics? They will give you a FREE pregancy test. They will get you signed up to recieve free medical care. They will supplyyou with playpens, diapers, strollers, etc…”
I did. Last I heard, all they cared about was that the mother not get an abortion and stop giving her stuff after 24 weeks. It depresses me that these people don’t actually seem to care about the mother.
“please, is rape a necessary evil because it relieves the rapists need? Is theft a necessary evil because it got the thief what he needed?”
Your rights end where another person’s rights begin. Rape violates someone’s (usually a woman’s) right to bodily autonomy. Theft violates someone’s right to property. Stop focusing on “baby killing”, it makes you sound emotional and uneducated, that’s not the point of it at all. I’ve said repeatedly (and been ignored), if there was a way to restore a woman’s bodily autonomy without having the result of the fetus’ death, I’d take it, do you have any suggestions? A fetus has rights, but they’re limited as s/he has not yet been born. In the meantime, the z/e/f of an unwanted pregnancy is (yes, unintentionally) violating the mother’s right to bodily autonomy. Adoption is a solution, but it’s not just a matter of raising a child, there’s a lot that pregnancy entails too, it’s expensive and x30 the maternal mortality rate of legal abortion.
“Our church just raised 12,000.00 dollars for the womens center near us.”
Did you even look at the statistic you responded to. That’s not even enough for ONE pregnancy.
Adoption is spiffy, but it’s not for everyone for a couple reasons.
A) Mother still needs to go through pregnancy.
B) Assumes everyone who gets put up for adoption will get adopted. Current adoption trends indicate a kid is hard-pressed to get adopted if you’re not a cute little white baby. After about six months, adoption rate plummets, and apparently race is a factor. Ironic, since minority mothers (especially black and hispanic) have abortions at disproportionate rates.
C) There’s no closure for adoption, mothers cite being stressed at not knowing the baby’s future.
“Couples seeking private adoption often pay for the womans care while she is carrying the child.”
Pro-lifers keep saying “well she was irresponsible, she should pay for what she did (the evil crime of having sex, apparently)!” You think someone who doesn’t have the education and/or common sense to properly use birth control can arrange something like that? That’s how newborns end up in dumpsters and public bathrooms, and it’s deplorable.
“I was adopted. I am glad.”
Good for you, but remember that what worked for you may not work for everyone. Consider another person’s point of view, lest ye be narcissist, a sociopath, or a psychopath (your words, not mine), and acting in ways which are “evil”.
“Look up Mr. Tillers web site. He’ll tell you all about how he’ll give you a late term abortion.”
Have you actually read it? “Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman’s health. Each person’s circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis.”
Sorry, I didn’t see this until just now: “Why is the mother’s rights (which by the way, I believe is a liscense and not a right) trump the baby’s?”
Because the fetus (it’s not a “baby” until it’s been born) doesn’t have legal rights that trump a living, born, human being.
Zurg,
When we started this conversation (it was awhile ago) I stated that we were using diana reasoning that even if we agree that it IS a person, its still doesn’t have the right to use the mothers body.
With that in mind, I then asked you why does the mothers right take precedence over the baby’s?
Other than saying that it does, you haven’t explained why…
Diane,
If we go with the premise that an unborn child does indeed fit the criteria for personhood, then why does one person’s rights override the others. What would be your decision in the case of ‘born’ siamese twins?
THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL QUESTION…(there has to be a better was to make it clear who said what when we are quoting a previous post…it’s gets so confusing sometimes. That’s why I put my response in caps…not for emphasis.)
Have you actually read it? “Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman’s health. Each person’s circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis.”
CASE BY CASE BASIS MY, ER, FOOT…THEY ARE JUDGED BY THE ABILITY OF THE WOMAN TO PAY…
I HAVE READ IT MORE TIMES THAN I CARE TO ADMIT…
YOU DO UNDERSTAND DON’T YOU, THAT BY “DETRIMENTAL” TO THE WOMAN’S HEALTH, THEY MEAN IF SHE HAS AN INGROWN TOENAIL OR A HEADACHE.
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT AT 24 WEEKS GESTATION THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO ABORT THAT CHILD. THE EXACT SAME PROCESS WILL BE USED WHETHER YOU TAKE THE CHILD ALIVE OR ABORT IT. IT WILL NOT MAKE ONE IOTA OF DIFFERENCE TO THE MOTHER’S LIFE. A FULLY FORMED CHILD STILL HAS TO COME OUT OF HER CERVIX, WHICH MUST BE ARTIFICIALLY DILATED.
ONE OF THE GREATEST SUBTERFUGES USED IN THIS DEBATE IS THE ‘MOTHERS HEALTH’ ISSUE. BECAUSE THEY USE THE TERM HEALTH, (BUT MAKE IT SOUND LIKE LIFE), THEY HAVE OPENED THE LAW UP TO THE INTERPRETATION OF THE DOCTOR. THE REASON, AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE, THAT DOCTORS DON’T LIKE DOING LATE TERM ABORTIONS IS THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES. NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE BABY WILL SLIP THROUGH THE CERVIX BEFORE THE DOCTOR HAS A CHANCE TO SUCK HIS/HER BRAINS OUT. IF THIS HAPPENS, THEN THE BABY IS BORN ALIVE.
THIS IS THE ENTIRE ARGUMENT THAT THE SUPREME COURT IS HAVING RIGHT NOW. YOUR SIDE SAYS THAT WE CAN’T BAN PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTIONS, BECAUSE SINCE YOU CAN’T CONTROL HOW MUCH THE CERVIX DILATES, YOU CAN’T ENSURE THAT A CHILD WON’T SLIP THROUGH THE CERVIX TOO SOON. IF THIS HAPPENS, THEN PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTIONS MUST REMAIN LEGAL, BECAUSE OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE TO TAKE THE BABY ALIVE, NO LONGER HAVING THE OPTION OF PUNTURING IT’S BRAIN.
IF AN EARLIER ABORTION GOES WELL, THEN BEFORE THE BABY COMES OUT,HE IS RIPPED INTO SMALLER PIECES THEREBY ENDING THE CHANCE OF A LIVE BIRTH. BUT BABY’S ARE SLIPPERY LITTLE DEVILS AND CAN OFTEN SLIDE OUT BEFORE YOU ARE READY. READY WITH THE INSTRUMENTS OF TORTURE, THAT IS.
IF THIS CONVERSATION TURNED YOUR STOMACH, GOOD. IT SHOULD. JOIN THE CLUB.
MK
“With that in mind, I then asked you why does the mothers right take precedence over the baby’s?
Other than saying that it does, you haven’t explained why…”
Like I said above, nothing unborn has rights that trump the rights of a living, breathing, born (and thus, granted rights) woman.
“If we go with the premise that an unborn child does indeed fit the criteria for personhood, then why does one person’s rights override the others.”
My take: Because it’s not a person yet, and thus doesn’t have rights yet.
“CASE BY CASE BASIS MY, ER, FOOT…THEY ARE JUDGED BY THE ABILITY OF THE WOMAN TO PAY…”
Holy caps, batman! Cite.
Zurg,
You state above that a fetus becomes a person after birth and has rights. What about a premature baby? If born at seven months its human, if in the womb its not. Is the full term baby more human than the premature? Please tell me the genetic difference between the two that makes one human and the other not.
The health risks of pregnancy? All you mention are managable with proper care. I know because I have seen and cared for them as a medical professional. A woman who’s life or health is truly endangered should be put under the care of a specialist and can seek assistance at any hospital with the facilities to care for her. Ever hear of high risk maternity centers? The patients I have seen in these are not millionaires, and many don’t have insurance. They come from all socioeconomic levels. In my over 30 years of medical work in religious and non-religious hospitals, pre and post Roe, I have NEVER seen any situation where any woman was ever allowed to die or that everything necessary wasn’t done to save her life. Not all women have the same access to proper care? That is the real issue that should be addressed. Is a woman who seeks an abortion because of lack of medical care a woman with true freedom of choice? The care is available, the problem is all too often with women who do not seek care, as one doctor who volunteered his services in a low income area sadly observed. The other is the woman in denial of pregnancy, who we see in the emergency room when she is about to deliver.
Give some control and autonomy in this hectic world? Does the woman who wants a child but can’t conceive enjoy control and autonomy? Does the person afflicted with a disabling disease or a fatal illness? Please Zurg, in the real world, we don’t have total control and never will. Abortion won’t magically enable anyone with absolute control or autonomy.
Speaking of control and autonomy, wasn’t that the same argument used years ago to justify wife abuse? A man’s home is HIS castle, he has HIS rights, he has the right to control HIS household, its HIS wife and HIS family. I lived through the terror of this mentality as a child Zurg, I remember when it was alive and well. It existed long before I had to experience it as a child. But then, men had the right to control and autonomy, did they not?
“You state above that a fetus becomes a person after birth and has rights. What about a premature baby? If born at seven months its human, if in the womb its not. Is the full term baby more human than the premature? Please tell me the genetic difference between the two that makes one human and the other not.”
I never said there was one, but I figure it’s done this way because it’s the most concrete way of deciding when rights should be granted. That’s why, conspiracy theories aside, it’s much more difficult to get an abortion once average points of viability have elapsed without life-threatening circumstances.
“Is a woman who seeks an abortion because of lack of medical care a woman with true freedom of choice?”
Not necessarily. If I were in that situation, I’d say “Abortion is safer than childbirth, cheaper than pregnancy, I won’t have to give birth, and I’ll have the closure of not needing to wonder what happened to my child. Why would I put myself at risk over this pregnancy I never intended to have in the first place? That’s why I was on the pill.”
“Speaking of control and autonomy, wasn’t that the same argument used years ago to justify wife abuse?”
At some point, legislators remembered that women and children are people, too. With rights, and all that jazz. Rights that 16 cells on a uterine wall do not possess.
TYPING IN CAPSLOCK DOES NOT MAKE YOU SEEM MORE INTELLIGENT, NOR DOES IT GET YOUR POINT ACROSS ANY BETTER. THIS IS KIND OF ANNOYING TO READ.
We can read your thoughts just fine if you type normally.
“A man’s home is HIS castle, he has HIS rights, he has the right to control HIS household, its HIS wife and HIS family.”
The home, household, family, and wife did not belong only to a man, which is probably why this is not an issue today. All those things, especially the woman and family, were not his property.
“YOUR SIDE SAYS THAT WE CAN’T BAN PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTIONS, BECAUSE SINCE YOU CAN’T CONTROL HOW MUCH THE CERVIX DILATES, YOU CAN’T ENSURE THAT A CHILD WON’T SLIP THROUGH THE CERVIX TOO SOON. IF THIS HAPPENS, THEN PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTIONS MUST REMAIN LEGAL, BECAUSE OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE TO TAKE THE BABY ALIVE, NO LONGER HAVING THE OPTION OF PUNTURING IT’S BRAIN.
IF AN EARLIER ABORTION GOES WELL, THEN BEFORE THE BABY COMES OUT,HE IS RIPPED INTO SMALLER PIECES THEREBY ENDING THE CHANCE OF A LIVE BIRTH. BUT BABY’S ARE SLIPPERY LITTLE DEVILS AND CAN OFTEN SLIDE OUT BEFORE YOU ARE READY. READY WITH THE INSTRUMENTS OF TORTURE, THAT IS.”
What the hell are you talking about? Please post some evidence or something that backs this claim up!
“YOUR SIDE SAYS THAT WE CAN’T BAN PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTIONS, BECAUSE SINCE YOU CAN’T CONTROL HOW MUCH THE CERVIX DILATES, YOU CAN’T ENSURE THAT A CHILD WON’T SLIP THROUGH THE CERVIX TOO SOON.”
I’ve never heard someone say this–cite. And it’s called “ID&X”, not “partial-birth abortion”, I don’t know if you knew. PBA is a term invented by the pro-life movement to describe an existing medical procedure, that contains the word “birth” in order to evoke an emotional response. The AMA refuses to use the term, “partial birth abortion”.
“CASE BY CASE BASIS MY, ER, FOOT…THEY ARE JUDGED BY THE ABILITY OF THE WOMAN TO PAY…”
Holy caps, batman! Cite.
Q. Are Partial-Birth Abortions Medically Necessary to Save the Mother
“At the albany clinic here in Chicago, it would cost 1600.00 to have an abortion at twenty four weeks. So much for the “these woman can’t afford all the costs of a pregnancy” argument.”
You’re conveniently ignoring it that birth is x5-7.5 that much by itself.
Special Online Discount
______________________
Print this page and present at any Member Center
for
$20.00 off your 1st visit
Courtesy of:
Illinois Abortion Clinics Online
OH LOOK THIS THOUGHTFUL GUY WILL EVEN GIVE YOU A DISCOUNT…ON YOUR WELL THOUGHT OUGHT, THO EXTREMELY PAINFUL, BUT THOROUGHLY NECESSARY, WHILE NOT RENDERING YOU TRAUMATIZED, BUT QUITE POSSIBILY IN NEED OF COUNSELING, DOING SOMETHING YOU DON’T LIKE BUT WHICH IS A NECESSARY EVIL, BECAUSE YOU CAN’T AFFORD MEDICAL CARE BUT CAN AFFORD THIS ABORTION, PROCEDURE.
Would you like fries with that?
MK
“I would link the site but it is too long and I’m afraid it would “streetttchhh” the post again.”
Post, but cut it up with spaces, people can remove the spaces to restore the link.
You’re conveniently ignoring it that birth is x5-7.5 that much by itself.
ALREADY COVERED THAT WITH THE WOMEN’S CENTERS…
I will try…
Can’t do it…while I may be prolific with words I stink at technology…
Okay, go to citizenlink.org
in the search option type in partial birth abortion.
when given choices, choose frequently asked questions.
this is the best I can do. I know you won’t approve of the site, but surely you can’t argue about the people they are quoting.
Sandra Day O’connor, the surgeon general,the president of AMA…don’t shoot the messenger, consider the sources…
Stephanie,
You miss my point with the caplocks. I was trying to emphasize how a man was given complete control, it was his rights, his wife, his property, etc., and his “rights” superceded all others.
I couldn’t agree more with you that a man does not own his wife, family, or household, nor does he have total control. However, that was not always the case. I’m talking of an era before you were born, but which I remember all too well, because I lived with the constant stress and terror of domestic violence as a child.
That was how it was Stephanie, however unjust and wrong, men had total control and autonomy, and that is what I was emphasising.
Police were unable to intervene, they could stop the violence, but could do little else. The woman had virtually no protection. Shelters were unheard of. I remember when the man across the street chased his wife with a butcher knife. The police could do nothing to him! This was after all his home and it was his wife. They told her to stay away for a while until he calmed down.
Thankfully great strides have been made since my childhood and I’m glad to see that you Stephanie, and others will never be subjected to this mentality.
Zurg,
By the time most abortions take place the fetus is well past “16 cells on a uterine wall”.
Also, wouldn’t you agree that lack of medical care, if that is truly the case, is the problem and must be addressed? I didn’t ask what you would do in this situation, I asked if a woman who seeks an abortion because she can’t get medical care, a highly unlikely scenario, is a woman who truly has freedom of choice.
As for the issue of wife abuse, yes legislators and society finally left the Dark Ages and recognized that men did not have total control, but since control and autonomy justify abortion to you, I wanted to point out that it was also used to justify the abuse of women.
To any of you that put a pathetic tale on the imnotsorry web site.I am wondering why you aren’t sorry for murdering something that was a part of you.Somebody else told me to check this site out[This person was pro-choice] and even she was disturbed by it. It was spine chilling to say the least.
You’re not sorry for murder? Why are you in my society? You could be a real danger.You turned on your own baby, and you never gave it a second thought.You expect others to just accept this? No way.I never killed anyone,and I can sleep at night.Abortion is a barbaric procedure.It ends the life of a child.Some of you on this site have even aborted more than once.Most of you already had children so you were well aware of where they came from. Yourenotsorry? Imnotsympathetic.
Zurg,
This was posted by Mary: By the time most abortions take place the fetus is well past “16 cells on a uterine wall”.
She’s right. If you go to mister tillers site he says right there that he won’t perform an abortion until 5 weeks.
Pre-Conception 1st Trimester 2nd Trimester 3rd Trimester Birth AfterDelivery
1st Trimester
The Developing Fetus, Weeks 1-8
by Robert Needlman, M.D., F.A.A.P.
reviewed by Marjorie Greenfield, M.D.
Week 5:
Eyes are starting to form, a mouth-like opening appears near the “head”; finger and toes are beginning to form. The brain now has three recognizable divisions, as it does in the fully-developed baby and adult.
Week 6:
The beginnings of a nose and palate appear; eyelids cover the eyes. The brain is growing rapidly, making a prominent bulge in the head region. The length is not quite one inch.
Week 7-8:
More brain growth. Inside, intestines, liver, kidneys, lungs, heart are all taking shape. Ovaries and testes can be seen. The first muscle movements take place.
By the end of the 8th week, all of the main organ systems are in place, although not in their final form. The embryo sits in the shape of a C, with its large head bowed, and legs flexed upward. It weighs about 1/3 of an ounce, and measures about 2 inches from top to bottom.
Up until this point, scientists have called this wonder of development an embryo. After week 8, the convention is to call it a fetus. All of the most dramatic transformations are over. But there is still a lot of development that needs to take place before the baby is ready to emerge into the world
Day 1:
The sperm fertilizes the egg. The sperm and egg each carries half of the normal amount of genetic material (DNA.) After fertilization, the egg now has a full set of genes that is unique.
When I saw the doctor for my pregnancy he used a doppler to detect a fetal heart beat,and I heard that little heart beat loud and clear.Blood clots and blobs don’t have heartbeats
I forgot to add in my above post-My pregnancy was only 1 month along.
“Thankfully great strides have been made since my childhood and I’m glad to see that you Stephanie, and others will never be subjected to this mentality.”
I’m glad too, and I’m sorry you had to go through that era. But tell me why it’s related to abortion again?
Stephanie,
Since autonomy and control, as well as the right of one person over another, were viewed as a justification for abortion, I was pointing out that this same argument was used as a justification for wife abuse. A man had a “right” to autonomy (his home, secure from any intervention from the state) and control, the “right” to treat HIS wife and children and run HIS household as he saw fit. Please forgive the caplocks, again I am only emphazising a point and not deliberately trying to annoy you.
Stephanie,
sorry about the caps, they were annoying me too.
I have a hard time separating who is saying what.
I wish I could use different colors for different voices. Anyway, it was an experiment. It didn’t work. Won’t happen again.
Stephanie and Zurg,
What the hell are you talking about? Please post some evidence or something that backs this claim up!
I’ve never heard someone say this–cite. And it’s called “ID&X”, not “partial-birth abortion”, I don’t know if you knew. PBA is a term invented by the pro-life movement to describe an existing medical procedure, that contains the word “birth” in order to evoke an emotional response. The AMA refuses to use the term, “partial birth abortion”.
I’ll cite tomorrow. Gotta put the kids to bed.
Again, I am so sorry about the caps…looking back at my posts I want to tell myself to shut-up! What was I thinkin?
MK
By the way, I know the term, PBA is just what I call it. I’ll be happy (sort of) to use D&X. Once at the dinner table, I asked my 17 year old which he would prefer to hear: Partial birth abortion or dilation (of the cervix) and extraction (of the baby)…he left the table. Since then, we have gone with partial birth abortion…
It would depend on her office hours, but sure, I’d go.
@MK: cite which? be specific and i’ll be glad to
okay testing italice i’ll be amazed if this works
I’m amazed
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/05-380.pdf
This is a link to the transcripts of the court arguments for case one.
read pages 5 and on and long as you can stomach it.
this is in reference to the D&X as you call it, although in the transcripts they refer to it as partial birth abortion…
Let me know what you think.
Myself, I can’t fathom how some of the greatest minds in the world, our supreme court justices and physicians, could sit around aruguing the fine points of dismembering children before and after they are born, and then break for lunch…but hey, I’ve always had delicate sensibilities…
mk
I just tried my link and it won’t work. You can go to Generationsforlife.org. You’ll have to work for this, but it is the actual transcripts…
Scroll down on the left had side and hit Law and Politics. When that comes up, scroll down til you get to Today at the Supreme Court. Once there, you have to hit the “more” prompt. When that comes up you will be given an option to read the transcripts. Choose case 1. It’s on acrobat which is why I can’t lift it…read page 5 on…
Good Luck.
mk
DoctorDefense,
Tiller is not an OB/GYN but a family practioner. Its questionable if he would qualify as a professor of OB/GYN anywhere. The people working for him and supervising the care of patients, including administering drugs, in his clinic have no formal schooling or licensing as far as I could determine.
As for the death of Christin Gilbert, space and time doesn’t allow me to elaborate. I would refer you to http://www.operationrescue.org, write in Christin Gilbert in “Search” to find documented facts, not personal opinions, on Christin’s death.
Well,Dr.Defense.What makes you so smart? I doubt that you’re an MD. What makes you think that I WANT to manage anyone’s reproductive care? I shall manage my own-thank you very much.The only thing that I can gather from your rather silly statements directed at me is that you are exactly as MK posted before-A button pusher.You don’t even have anything of importance to offer to this blog. Why don’t you ask the pro aborts on this board to manage their own reproductive care? They are the women that have aborted their children. Who needs the help here? Also, you seem very defensive when it comes to abortionists.Perhaps you attempted med school yourself…and flunked.Perhaps you need a shrink.I have listed many corrupt abortionists,and if you were pro-woman then you might do a little more investigating.Don’t be so quick to shoot down what I have revealed.I find it very hard to believe that you don’t see the evil on the side of CHOICE.I wonder why you are so supportive of abortionists anyway.I find you rather bizaar!
P.S. Dr. Defense I remember you from posts on OR One of your posts was borderline threatening as well as frightening. I wonder why you are always the person bringing up terrorists.I can assure you that violence of any sort is not on my mind. I wonder about you though.
Shelley is responsible for her choice-not me. She is doing prison time…no? Don’t even go there with me. Let’s talk about LeRoy Carhart. He hit some innocent guy on the sidewalk with his car.Why didn’t someone haul his fat butt off to the slammer? I am here to tell people how I feel about abortion. It is and always will be wrong. I can’t stop it.I know a lot of women that have destroyed their lives having abortions.I can tell you this is true. If you know of women that are feeling good about their abortions-then good for you.Personally, I haven’t met one.Some of the women on this site have really shocked me though.I have never heard so many stories of women that were okay with it.How can anyone be ok with it. I am also here because I am trying to understand.
PS I really don’t think that Tiller could have his pick when it came to a job. The hospital staff that has to take his botched abortion patients can’t stomach the man.Who can blame them? A hack job here a death there and please 911 don’t turn on those sirens! I hate to burst your bubble,but the man is not respected.
@momof3 at March 14, 2007 09:45 PM:
I like how when you have nothing of substance with which to refute an assertion, you resort to attacking credibility instead. You’re consistent with it, at least.
DoctorDefense
Since Tiller is not a GYN but rather a family practice doctor, it is highly unlikely he would get any professorship in GYN at any medical school. He does not have the necessary credentials. A guest speaker, maybe, is about all. There is more to GYN than doing late term abortions, such as other types of surgery, oncolology, etc. with which Tiller has little if no experience.
http://www.dr-tiller.com/
Here you can witness Dr. Tillers insanity first hand. What a charming man.
Reminds me a little of the dear, late John Wayne Gacy.
You know, clown face and smiling on the outside, deadly as a cobra on the inside.
MK
MK, I have seen this site before. Odd,Tiller and Gacy do have the same smile. All he’s missing is a touch of white powder. I looked again though. Interesting-I never knew that he’d been caught using alcohol/Demerol.Not that it surprises me though.
Everyone,
this site has dropped off of the main page, probably due to new ones replacing it…
where do we go from here?
MK
Not sure MK. Jill is very helpful if you e-mail her.She answers you quickly.
Okay.
I’ll do that.
MK
No biggie about the capslock thing.