Gains from PBA ban
I said two nights ago I would post how the Partial Birth Abortion Ban helped the pro-life cause.
I wrote in 2003 it helped by converting Americans to the culture of life. I realize this is just theory, but here are reputable national polls dating back to when PBA was first nationally discussed in 1995:
[Polls moved to page 2]
Although a couple specific conclusions differ, long-term polls clearly show an American opinion shift on abortion. Was it due to the PBA revelations? I think so, at least in part.
On to specifics….
Tom Minnery of Focus on the Family made two sound points in a June 7 column:
But when the Supreme Court handed down Carhart [PBA decision]… the court majority signaled that the special deal for abortion cases was coming to an end. The language in the opinion made it clear that from now on it will be nearly impossible for abortionists to run to federal court to block an abortion law before the ink is dry, in a facial challenge.
With this latest abortion decision, it looks like the Supreme Court is establishing a new paradigm for abortion cases. Although the lower federal courts in California and Nebraska had struck down the 2003 federal PBA ban via the typical “facial” challenge, the Supreme Court opinion held that “these facial attacks should not have been entertained in the first instance.” Only “as-applied” challenges should be entertained in the future in such cases, wrote Justice Kennedy in the majority opinion. That means abortion laws can only be challenged as to specific, actual situations that may come up – and if exceptions need to be judicially carved out of the law to solve those rare problems, the bulk of the law remains intact.
Undoubtedly, the Carhart decision will breathe new life into the passage of abortion-limiting laws around the country. And when those new laws are passed, they’ll stay on the books and they’ll be enforced, and lives will be saved because of Carhart….
Carhart was significant for yet another reason. The court acknowledged for the first time since 1973 that an abortion procedure could be prohibited because of “ethical and moral concerns,” including the observation that “some women come to regret their choice to abort the infant life they once created and sustained.”
By accepting and defending Congress’s right to base an abortion law on moral concerns, the Court punctured the hot air balloon that has carried the abortionists’ lie since 1973 – that a preborn baby is a blob of tissue that the mother needn’t think about in human terms…. Pro-lifers have been waiting a long time to hear such moral concerns validated in a Supreme Court opinion.
Dan McConchie of Americans United for Life listed what pro-lifers got from the PBA decision in a speech I recently attended, some overlapping Minnery’s points:
Restored guidelines from Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which is deferential to state legislation Reinforced importance of informed consent. Kennedy wrote something unprecedented in a Supreme Court decision:
The State has an interest in ensuring so grave a choice is well informed. It is self-evident that a mother who comes to regret her choice to abort must struggle with grief more anguished and sorrow more profound when she learns, only after the event, what she once did not know: that she allowed a doctor to pierce the skull and vacuum the fast-developing brain of her unborn child, a child assuming the human form.
Narrowed the unlimited health exception from Doe. v. Bolton, which created a wide health definition. In the pba decision, the Court stated it now has to be of a substantial nature Implied the Court will not support human cloning.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I don’t see it Jill. +/- 3-4% deviation = no change.
Try opening your eyes, Cameron.
1995 to 2007… Could you highlight a specific statistical trend, among those you’ve provided, which supposedly supports your prediction?
at least on the NBC poll the margin of error is +- 3 percent, so if there is a change, its marginal at best.
Cam/Dan, you guys are so stuck on your ideology. Every poll I posted showed a move toward pro-life. Partularly interesting about these polls was they showed historical trends, not just blips.
The +/- deviation applies to your positives/negatives as well as our positives/negatives. In other words, they wash each other out, particularly when you’re considering as many as 25 polls over a decade asking the identical question.
Sorry Jill,
I very much agree with both Cam and Dan. A further consideration: when euthanasia looms its head will we get the same inept strategy to help protect us, the vulnerable?
With what do you agree with the boys, John?
Jill,
The recent change in opinions was due to one reason which is exposure. It must continue and at a higher level.
The lesson to be learned is that we must keep abortion on the front lines of people’s thinking. It works.
I believe even the current controversy between pro-life groups can be beneficial if for no other reason that to use it as an opportunity to force people to really think about how atrocious abortion is. It’s not something people think about every day, however, they need to as I believe abortion is the most serious threat we face as a nation since the spiritual/God implications are enormous.
Abortion is easy to sweep under the rug. Unlike Vietnam and Iraq where the media used and uses distorted visual impressions to push their ideology and agenda of the editorial staff on the nightly news, usually just a few liberal whackos, the killing fields of abortion get no such attention.
We must find new ways to keep abortion in the forefront of people’s thinking and hope that people’s basic humanity kicks in. The internet is now our nightly news, however, the methods need to become more intense, more coordianted, more focused. We must sieze this moment.
A plan would be such:
1) Use the media to keep abortion at the forefront of people’s thinking even if it’s a very controversial issue that drives the exposure. We need to turn up the heat on national level.
2) Pressure our representatives to repeal the 501c3 muzzle on churches.
3) Confront pastors and church leaders on their reluctance to speak on the subject for fear of offending.
4) Eliminate the pro-lifer fear of the political correctness crowd.
5) Continue to expose the motives and actions of groups like Planned Parenthood showing their duplicity, deception and outright dishonesty, i.e, articles on their annual report and their subsequent pleas for additional governmental funding.
6) Encourgae pro-life journalists to to more undercover investigation on the industry by establishing scholarships and grants for those that who want to engage and investigate the abortion industry without fear of being shut out of a job.
7) Continue to expose the motives and actions of indiviudal abortionists like Tiller.
8) Engage the millions of people that are pro-life to get involved, give them a voice. So many feel powerless and we need to provide them with the tools to be heard.
9) Approach someone like Mel Gibson to do a “Passion of the Christ” type movie on abortion. At least this would wake up the church which is the key to eliminating abortion. Anyone know how to contact Mel out there?
9) And most importantly, speak God’s word to the whole abortion situation. The church needs a major repentance event.
Jill, you are already doing alot of this. We need millions more like you.
We press on
Jill, why would we lobby for the PBA ban, spend a quarter of a billion dollars in fundraising, if the ultimate goal was only to shift the American minds a couple percentage points (taking into account the margin of error) in their views on abortion? Couldn’t that quarter of a billion dollars been better spent on advertising, if our real goal was to change the mind of a few Americans? This is so bizarre. At least we are getting people to agree (Mark Crutcher, Troy Newman, James Dobson) that the PBA ban will not save one human life. It seems to me that you’re trying to say we’ve battled for 15 years, spent millions and millions of dollars just to change a few American minds on their view of abortion. I don’t know about you guys, but I think our time and money could have been better spent. As a matter of fact, I know it could have.
What the +/- says is that your presumed trend is “statistically insignificant.”
Will, spending money on lawsuits against pro-life organizations isn’t going to help the pro-life cause now, is it? If you think it is, please explain how.
Most importantly, if you want to say PBA generated a conversion, and it was first discussed back in 1995…. don’t you think… maybe… that you should be looking at statistics from before that period.
Just a thought.
Jill, in your column, you attacked Colorado Right to Life and others for issuing a press release critizing Dr. Dobson and others for praising the PBA ban. Their main claim was that this law would not save a single baby. Now, Dr. Dobson, and others admit that as well. Another point made by CRTL was that Pro-life leaders spent fifteen years convincing their followers that pba would be outlawed. (After this ruling was passed, callers to Focus on the Family, were told that all 7th, 8th, and 9th month abortions were now illegal.) Fifteen years, and not one baby saved. So, we celebrate a four-inch variation? We celebrate killing innocent babies from the bell button down? And even pba is still allowed under this ruling (if the mother is over dialated and the baby slips out). And, we praise God? Has any other advocacy group, in America, failed like we have? I think the CTRL group advocating change should be applauded.
Jill,
I, too, have to agree with the “boys” about the data of the polls being “insignificant”. Even looking at the raw data, I don’t see a statistically significant trend. Of course, I haven’t run the numbers yet, so I could be wrong. In fact, I’m hoping that I am.
But, even if there is a significant difference in the data, how can we say that the focus on PBA is the cause? That might be bad science.
Mark and Will, I want to know… What good are the lawsuits against multiple pro-life organizations going to do for our cause?
re Tom Minnery’s statement..”will Carhart breathe new life into the passage of abortion limiting laws?” What in the world, then, have we been doing for the last fifteen years? P.S. Tom–In answer to your question–Not in Minnesesota, where in June, a state ban on some abortions was struck down
Bethany, you’re confused and being lied to by Jill Stanek, and the pro-life movement. A radio show in Colorado has paid for all the open letter ads, and there has been no lawsuits and and most likely won’t be any. There has been a wasted 15 years, a wasted quarter of a billion dollars to get the abortion in the news, which we’re doing a far better job on, with a fraction of the cost and time.
Bethany, God bless you. I’m not sure of any specifics, concerning a law suit. Over the years I have donated money to Focus (not much, but some) and I do feel betrayed by them. Possibly, others have given much more, and feel the same betrayal. But, I really don’t have much more than that. If i find out more, I will let you know.
Thank you Mark, I appreciate your post… I totally understand where you guys are coming from in frustration about the Partial birth abortion ban not as much as we all had hoped… I am frustrated about that too.
But I dont think there’s anything more that any of these pro-life organizations could have done? …and I don’t understand how they could have possibly predicted the exact outcome? Maybe I’m just naive?
I just am so confused as to why all of a sudden we have pro-lifers arguing with one another. It makes me so sad. I have never seen this happen before.
You know, there’s a very famous study that proved eating oatmeal for breakfast is correlated with cancer. Let me explain:
These scientists took two groups of people: those who had eaten oatmeal for breakfast as children, and those who had eaten cold cereal. Those who had eaten oatmeal as children has a significantly higher rate of cancer and generally bad health than those who had eaten cereal. Guess why? Those who had eaten exclusively oatmeal for breakfast…were older. As age increases, general bad health also tends to increase. So, does eating oatmeal for breakfast cause cancer? Not a bit. There might be a correlation, but there is absolutely no causation.
Correlation doesn’t equal causation, and you all would do well to remember that. Oatmeal doesn’t cause cancer.
HisMan, 12:55p, said: “I believe even the current controversy between pro-life groups can be beneficial if for no other reason that to use it as an opportunity to force people to really think about how atrocious abortion is.”
I’ve actually been thinking that myself.
this is a repost…that Will sounds a lot like the guy, who back in 1990, said he would never suport any politician, (newspaper columnist, judge, law, or advocacy group) willing to kill one innocent baby. I added what’s inside ()
Will, 1:03p, said: “Jill, why would we lobby for the PBA ban, spend a quarter of a billion dollars in fundraising, if the ultimate goal was only to shift the American minds a couple percentage points (taking into account the margin of error) in their views on abortion?… It seems to me that you’re trying to say we’ve battled for 15 years…”
That’s armchair quarterbacking on the amount of $ and time it took, Will.
I don’t believe the ultimate goal was initially to change minds. It was to stop pba. Pro-lifers were heartbroken when Clinton vetoed the legislation twice through the 90s. The change of mind was good coming from evil.
Mark B, 1:39p, said: “(After this ruling was passed, callers to Focus on the Family, were told that all 7th, 8th, and 9th month abortions were now illegal.)”
Mark, you have your facts wrong, or you’re being purposefully disengenuous.
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/06/prolife_hardlin.html
Bethany, Dr. Dobson, in my view, was the guy to lead us. He should have stuck to his pledge. It was a winning strategy, and he compromised on it. Sadly. That’s why we beg him to take up the pledge, again.
Jill, reconsider WHAT you said about my facts being wrong.
Will, 1:58p, said: “Bethany, you’re confused and being lied to by Jill Stanek, and the pro-life movement. A radio show in Colorado has paid for all the open letter ads, and there has been no lawsuits and and most likely won’t be any.”
Will, don’t you work for that radio show? Don’t you know the show host raised money from pro-lifers for the ads? He still is. See top of his website, in red:
http://www.kgov.com/
And don’t you know the show host threatened in an email to sue?
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/06/plan_class_acti.html
Mark, a small potatoes worker at FOTF made a mistake which was corrected. Sheesh.
Bethany, I’ll ask you one of the questions I asked Jill. What advocacy group in America has failed more miserably, in achieving their goals, than pro lifers. And, what? We’re mocked for suggesting a new strategy? And, Bethany, consider this; our pro-life leaders were thanking and praising GOD,for this ruling, that they now admit will not save one baby. A ruling, if you read it, will make you sick. I believe you would cry. We obey GOD and HIS enduring command, ‘thou shall not murder’ We do not obey men, or PRAISE them, if they pass laws legitimizing the killing of the innocent.
So, Jill why did you say I had my facts wrong? Small potatoes? maybe…maybe not
Mark, you’re majoring in the minors. Grow up. You misconstrued what happened with FOTF. You neglected to say a low level employee spoke incorrectly and was corrected. You’re encouraging dissent.
Mark, you said to Bethany, “What advocacy group in America has failed more miserably, in achieving their goals, than pro lifers. And, what? We’re mocked for suggesting a new strategy?”
You’re suggesting an OLD STRATEGY THAT FAILED, Mark.
How can you say, meanwhile, the rest of the pro-life movement has “failed miserably”?
While the sexual revolution has devastated society, pro-lifers have stood in the gap where the church should have.
There are now over 3k CPCs.
We are fighting on so many fronts… abstinence, contraception, abortion, post-abortion, the abc link, adoption, euthanasia, assisted suicide, embryo destruction, and more. Give me a break. You’re such a jerk, I have to say. I’m sorry to call you names, but you’re such a detractor. People have poured their lives into the sanctity of life. And it has met with success.
Jill is trying to change the topic to Will and who he works for..Yeah, that’s a lot more important than the pba ban, and whether it saves lives or not. How in the world, who Will works for, became relevant, is beyond me.
Yes, Jill, I am encouraging dissent, just as you are. Yes, mine is an OLD strategy–THOU SHALL NOT MUDER. A million babies a year, yeah, i’d call that failure. and, Yeah, i’m a jerk, like James Dobson was in 1990
Mark, may I ask how old you are? You’re arguing like an adolescent.
I was not changing the topic. Will posed incorrect information re: the very CO radio show for which I believe he works. Furthermore, I specifically quoted where I believed he erred with links to corrections.
Whew… all this time I thought I couldn’t kill people… but I guess I just can’t “muder”
Jill I’m over fifty..I am not going to tell you how much over 50.
and, i haven’t called you any names.
What do ya say jill… got any pre-1995 data??
everyone smile!! :-)
Its about to RAIN again in the Heart of Dixie!!!
Camerama, if you go to the link to “polls” in my post, you’ll see all the polls listed. Only one, Gallup, goes back to 1975. I had originally cut and pasted the entire Gallup poll for the post and decided to stick to apples and apples.
Jill, a Ted Slater, who claims to work for Focus on the Family, said this to me on another blog. (BTW, this blog only links to the unedited call.)
“Will — I just had a chance to listen to the recording you made of the phone call. It’s clear that Susan was mistaken, that what she told you was wrong. You are right to be concerned about her saying that abortion has been banned in the final trimester.”
Wow, an honest person. Jill, what incorrect information did I pose?
Hey Guys,
You ALL got beat by a girl. Hee, hee, hee.
Jill, you’re a champ. Now go for the gold.
Seriously though, we’re gonna beat this abortion monster.
Mark b, what’s sacred, the method or the message? You risk making the method more important than the message and thus becoming irrelevant. We all know abortion is murder. It’s one front to keep saying that and another front to do those things in light of reality that will get us to the goal.
You make a huge mistake to not recognize amd embrace Jill’s absolute passion and staunch opposition to abortion. It’s very apparent that you would rather be right then end abortion, a legalist rather than a change agent. It’s not about you buddy.
Cameron,
You are a muderer….a dirty, filthy muderer….whatever that means.
Now don’t get wacky on me.
I have not questioned jill’s passion and opposistion to abortion. I have challenged her strategy. Legalist? hardly. You’re confusing me with Justice Alito and all those who condone murder, because it’s the law of the land. But, as a follower of Jesus Christ, I know there is a higher law than man’s law. And that law is my foundation. Maybe, that’s why we disagree.
Mark, get it through your head. There’s nothing for you to challenge. We already know we disagree on strategy.
I said in a recent post I think this disagreement is not solvable. It’s a Paul and Barnabas sort of thing.
That said, for you to thus conclude your way of thinking shows you’re a follower of Jesus and mine shows I’m not is an actual abuse of the much maligned “judge not less ye be judged” Scripture. You’re saying I’m going to hell. You’re playing God. But this isn’t a game. Be careful, my friend.
Mark b,
If the law is your foundation you and all of us are doomed because it’s about grace and not works lest any man should boast.
Why didn’t Jesus heal all the sick and raise all the dead, etc., etc.? He had the power to. Did He do the wrong thing. Why do people die at all? Why does He apparently allow abortion even though it breaks His heart?
Abortion is a sin and we all want to see it end. In order for it to end the church must turn from their wicked ways, humble themselves, seek God’s face and pray and He will heal our land. I think Jill and you both agree on that, no? But to diss her and others like that simply because the method differs but not the message?
When you diss a dear brother or sister you risk God’s wrath. Not even David would hurt Saul because he knew Saul was God’s anointed despite the fact that Saul was in rebellion. Also what happened to that guy who spoke against Moses and Aaron? He and his whole family were sucked into the earth. Get the point?
If abortion is to end the church is to unite. Any disunity at all turns off God’s blessing.
You are not talking strategy you are talking doctrine. You can’t seem to separate opinion from doctrine and in the process you do great harm to the cause.
Yes, you are a legalist and a confused one at that.
Would you have been happier if Alito voted the other way? You make no sense.
Tell me, if a case were brought before Alito to overturn Roe v. Wade, would he do so?
I’d rather listen to Cameron.
Jill, my last post was not even directed to you. I was addressing HisMan. I did not mention hell.and I was not judging HisMan; I was simply trying to engage in dialogue. Now, were you judging me when you said I was playing God?
Jill,
So basically 50 million kids had to die for 45% of Americans say they are pro-life but, 39% think murder should be legal? That does not sound like a working plan.
Yes, we are saved through grace. But that does not abolish “Thou shall not murder”, etc. I don’t beleive evil that happens on the earth, including abortion is God’s will! Paul rebuked Peter and that was out of love for a brother. And, to warn people about this wicked supreme court ruling is also done out of love. HisMan, have you read the ruling?
Mark b:
It also says that thou shalt not committ adultery. Why aren’t you out there campaigning against adultery, or theft, or lying, or non-belief? When’s the last time you saw someone get arrested for doing the dirty on someone else’s wife? Why aren’t you just as outraged?
When Jesus confronted the Pharisee’s question about adultery what was His answer?
You know what it was….”if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart he is guilty of adultery”.
Of course abortion is a sin. It’s a heart sin as all sin is. I deal with sin and you deal with sin every day. However, because we are believers, we have a way out. Non-believers do not because they reject the way out. They are powerless over it.
The act of abortion can only be committed by one who’s heart is full of darkness. No law will change that heart to one after God’s own heart. There has to be an encounter with the living Christ.
That’s why we win the war one soul at a time as the Lord leads us.
The Supreme Court is not going to change abortion. They are simply an instrument. Until the church humbles itself, prays, seeks God’s face and turns from it’s wicked ways in this country, will God step in and ban abortion as law. It’s up to the church/ Remeber, judgement begins with the House of the Lord, not non-believers. In a way, non-belieers don’t know any better.
The church should be weeping in repentance over abortion. What do I see on this site? Even Christians supporting a women’s right to choose. It’s diaboloical.
So, I think it is wrong to diss Jill, a fellow sister in Christ who is passionatley against abortion and doing her best to change it. Why do you think her site is so personally oriented? She knows that the way to win the battle is to win the hearts and minds of people, especially the young souls that come to this site, one at a time.
If we just had one of her for every 100 Christians who sit on their butts and do nothing and don’t care, I am sure abortion would end soon, very soon.
Lolita, 11:43p, said: “So basically 50 million kids had to die for 45% of Americans say they are pro-life but, 39% think murder should be legal? That does not sound like a working plan.”
Lolita, in 1973 the Supreme Court autocratically legalized the killing of preborn children, not pro-lifers trying to convert Americans to becoming pro-life. How ridiculous.
The blame for 50 million children dying since then is to be placed on the so-called sexual revolution, politicians, the courts, and above all, the Church, not pro-lifers.
The pro-life movement sprang as a parachurch organization in reaction to the 1973 decision… actually a tad before that when some saw it coming. It was launched in defense, not offense.
It has been playing catch-up ever since. Its first attempt to more than overturn Roe v. Wade – to pass a Human Life Amendment – failed. That was a 10-year learning experience. Fine. No one is blaming anyone for that. No one is saying those years were wasted.
This is a trial and error movement, the first of its specific kind in history. We have no playbook. All we have are comparative movements such as the abolitionist and civil rights movements, and I daresay the highly successful (not in principle, of course) feminist and homosexual movements. These all have one thing in common: incrementalism.
We can also look to the Underground Railroad and underground anti-Holocaust movement for inspiration. These movements saved who they could when they could while the apathetic world around them sat on their butts.
“Working plan”? Smart people adjust plans, Lolita. This is a war. War isn’t pretty, and war isn’t a neat little video game one wins by simply following a prewritten rule book, or “working plan.”
HisMan I agree with what you say and would add …”the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ..” I agree there are other issues out there that need addresed. (Evolution?) Nothing more pressing than abortion. We pick our battles. I agree with you on the Church. I feel it is asleep. And, it’s our church leaders who approve of politicians, judges, and laws that undermine our efforts. Do you think James Dobson’s pledge in 1990, not to support any politician who would kill one baby, A Godly one? I do. And, I believe we should apply that standard to any law, any judge.
Jill said, “We can also look to the Underground Railroad and underground anti-Holocaust movement for inspiration. These movements saved who they could when they could while the apathetic world around them sat on their butts.”
Again Jill I have used the analogy of the Holocaust or slavery. Did any of these people working to help those people legislate who can be killed/slaved and how to kill them?
Are you on the 100 year plan to end abortion?
The Church needs to wake up and stop using their own logic and reasoning and use God’s Word. IF we stand on it, He will do the fighting.
Leslie, we agree the Church needs to wake up. Meanwhile, we pro-lifers are standing in the gap.
You continue to insult and waste time by insinuating pro-lifers “help those people legislate who can be killed/slaved and how to kill them.”
You have it exactly backwards. You do not understand how the Underground Railroad worked.
In 1973, in two decisions, the Supreme Court authorized the killing, if desired, of every single preborn child in America.
Slowly but surely, we’re taking those children off the abortion table. We’re helping them escape. This is how the Underground Railroad, hiding Jews in walls of homes, equates, Lolita.
HisMan, just read your post made on June 15th at 11:38pm, and you have absolutely no clue what this debate is about. You said the solution to end abortion is for the church to end it. I’ve never heard Jill Stanek say such a thing. Her strategy is to pass compromised pro-life legislation which will keep abortion legal after Roe v Wade is overturned. It sounds like you two disagree in strategy as well.
Jill said, “Slowly but surely, we’re taking those children off the abortion table. We’re helping them escape. This is how the Underground Railroad, hiding Jews in walls of homes, equates, Lolita.”
A simple yes or no would be nice. Do the PBA ban or the Oklahoma tax funded abortion bill do this Jill? Do they take children off the abortion table?
HisMan said, “So, I think it is wrong to diss Jill, a fellow sister in Christ who is passionatley against abortion and doing her best to change it.”
There are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are passionately against abortion and doing their best to end abortion, and believe the only way to do so is by murdering abortionists and blowing up abortion clinics. Is it wrong to diss them?
Will D:
I haven’t got a clue? I can assure I have the answer if you would just shut up and listen. Please refrain from characterization of my level of knowledge regarding moral issues, especially that of abortion. I am a highly educated engineer with a Master’s degree in Theology and pursuing a PhD. You just happened to latch onto somebody’s opined characterization of the PBA ruling and made it your cause and in doing so have blinded yourself to the bigger picture. Now you waste your time dissing probably one of the most visible anti-abortion activists in the country.
Jill minces no words when it comes to proclaiming her faith in Christ. Why do you think she does what she does? And Jill and I are the church and are trying to do something.
Perhaps you need to read your Bible where is states to be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves. This is a spiritual battle my friend and Jill knows it.
I do not consider people who murder abortionists or blow up abortion clinics to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ as the word clearly states that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Are you calling Jill a murdrer? If you are, you are more twisted that the pro-aborts on this site.
How about Will D- ?
Oh my goodness…did HisMan just call a fellow pro-lifer more twisted than a pro-abort? I dare say I’m tickled at the sentiment. My it’s chilly…I think Hell is freezing over…
HisMan said, “I do not consider people who murder abortionists or blow up abortion clinics to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ as the word clearly states that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.”
You can blow up abortion clinics without killing people. For all the Christian women who have had abortions, please ignore HisMan’s bad theology. You can be forgiven of your abortion. Yes, you can still enter heaven. Where did you get your Masters?
I said you don’t have a clue about what THIS debate is about, aka the debate on strategy on this site. Based on your answer, it’s quite clear you don’t have a clue what this debate is about. Jill thinks compromised pro-life laws, better known as regualting child-killing is what will end abortion. You two disagree on strategy.
Jill, your strategy is bankrupt. DrudgeReport just reported yesterday that “Planned Parenthood Reports Record Abortions, High Profits.” A record number of abortions in 2005-2006. Unbelievable.
Wow… missed some fun. Not sure who to cheer for though.
BTW… Theology is not really a degree… it’s just an attempt to pass of religious authority as academic authority.
HisMan, I just read your reply to me again, and you are so lost. Not on the abortion in general, but on the current debate going on with Jill and others on the site.
You also said, “You just happened to latch onto somebody’s opined characterization of the PBA ruling and made it your cause and in doing so have blinded yourself to the bigger picture. ”
I really don’t appreciate this, and it’s absolutely not true. I’m one of the few people I know that has actually read the ruling and my opinions are based on facts from the ruling. Jill admitted to me on this site that the incremental progress that was made by the PBA ruling was that the baby can’t be pulled out quite as far before being butchered.
I never denied Jill’s faith or mentioned a lack thereof. I actually didn’t even know she’s a Christian. Thanks for letting me know.
And one more thing. I never said anything even remotely close to Jill being a murderer. Come to think about it (and I’m open to discussing this) she very well may be based on her testimony of letting living babies die in the janitors closet. I never even thought about it until you brought it up, but with what little information I do have, I’d say yes, she shares guilt in those babies deaths. PLEASE NOTE: I’m not condemning her and this has no bearing as to why we’re debating, and personally doesn’t affect why I’m here.
You can blow up abortion clinics without killing people. For all the Christian women who have had abortions, please ignore HisMan’s bad theology. You can be forgiven of your abortion. Yes, you can still enter heaven. Where did you get your Masters?
Will, why are you intentionally misinterpreting Hisman’s post? You know very well that Hisman is correct- the Bible does say that murderers can’t go to Heaven, and you know that it means an unrepentant murderer.
Eric Rudolph, and most like him, are unrepentant for the murders they have committed. Surely you are aware of this. They are not Christians.
If any of them have repented of what they have done, they could very well be saved, but they would have to be repentant first, and I think you and I agree on this, but you are purposefully trying to make Hisman and Jill out to be liars, and I do not appreciate that, from someone who calls themself a fellow pro-lifer.
If you are pro-life, don’t cause division among your own people! You’re fighting people who are on your side. This is ridiculous.
From James 4:
11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Will!! This comment you posted about Jill is outrageously insensitive and callous! You owe Jill an apology! I cannot BELIEVE the GALL you have to say such a horrid, HORRID thing.
“I never said anything even remotely close to Jill being a murderer. Come to think about it (and I’m open to discussing this) she very well may be based on her testimony of letting living babies die in the janitors closet. I never even thought about it until you brought it up, but with what little information I do have, I’d say yes, she shares guilt in those babies deaths.”
Do you have any clue what you’re talking about? Do you think Jill could have made that baby live?
And what do you mean by “letting babies die”???
Testimony of Jill L. Stanek, RN
Hearing on H.R. 4292, the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000”
July 20, 2000
I am a Registered Nurse who has worked in the Labor & Delivery Department at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Illinois, for the past five years. Christ Hospital performs abortions on women in their second or even third trimesters of pregnancy. Sometimes the babies being aborted are healthy, and sometimes they are not.
The method of abortion that Christ Hospital uses is called “induced labor abortion,” also now known as “live birth abortion.” This type of abortion can be performed different ways, but the goal always is to cause a pregnant woman’s cervix to open so that she will deliver a premature baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward. The way that induced abortion is most often executed at my hospital is by the physician inserting a medication called Cytotec into the birth canal close to the cervix. Cytotec irritates the cervix and stimulates it to open. When this occurs, the small, preterm baby drops out of the uterus, oftentimes alive. It is not uncommon for one of these live aborted babies to linger for an hour or two or even longer. One of them once lived for almost eight hours.
In the event that a baby is aborted alive, he or she receives no medical assessments or care but is only given what my hospital calls “comfort care.” “Comfort care” is defined as keeping the baby warm in a blanket until he or she dies, although even this minimal compassion is not always provided. It is not required that these babies be held during their short lives.
One night, a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down’s Syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have time to hold him. I could not bear the thought of this suffering child dying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived. He was 21 to 22 weeks old, weighed about 1/2 pound, and was about 10 inches long. He was too weak to move very much, expending any energy he had trying to breathe. Toward the end he was so quiet that I couldn’t tell if he was still alive unless I held him up to the light to see if his heart was still beating through his chest wall. After he was pronounced dead, we folded his little arms across his chest, wrapped him in a tiny shroud, and carried him to the hospital morgue where all of our dead patients are taken.
Other co-workers have told me many upsetting stories about live aborted babies whom they have cared for. I was told about an aborted baby who was supposed to have Spina bifida but was delivered with an intact spine. Another nurse is haunted by the memory of an aborted baby who came out weighing much more than expected ~ almost two pounds. She is haunted because she doesn’t know if she made a mistake by not getting that baby medical help. A Support Associate told me about a live aborted baby who was left to die on the counter of the Soiled Utility Room wrapped in a disposable towel. This baby was accidentally thrown into the garbage, and when they later were going through the trash to find the baby, the baby fell out of the towel and on to the floor.
I was recently told about a situation by a nurse who said, “I can’t stop thinking about it.” She had a patient who was 23+ weeks pregnant, and it did not look as if her baby would be able to continue to live inside of her. The baby was healthy and had up to a 39% chance of survival, according to national statistics. But the patient chose to abort. The baby was born alive. If the mother had wanted everything done for her baby, there would have been a neonatologist, pediatric resident, neonatal nurse, and respiratory therapist present for the delivery, and the baby would have been taken to our Neonatal Intensive Care Unit for specialized care. Instead, the only personnel present for this delivery were an obstetrical resident and my co-worker. After delivery the baby, who showed early signs of thriving, was merely wrapped in a blanket and kept in the Labor & Delivery Department until she died 2-1/2 hours later.
Something is very wrong with a legal system that says doctors are mandated to pronounce babies dead but are not mandated to assess babies for life and chances of survival. In other words, our laws currently say that babies have no rights to medical oversight until they are dead. We look the other way and pretend that these babies aren’t human while they’re alive but human only after they are dead. We issue these babies both birth and death certificates, but it is really only the death certificate that matters. No other children in America are medically abandoned like this.
Abortion is a cancer that is literally killing America. It is killing our children while it is killing our consciences. It began when we took God out of our decision making and proclaimed that the little beings growing inside of women were “products of conception” and not little girls and little boys. Who should be surprised that we keep pushing the envelope so that now we are aborting these “products of conception” alive? I even work at a hospital named “Christ” that does this very thing! It is beyond me to comprehend that we’re doing what we’re doing now, and so I can’t even imagine what horrible ways we will think of next to torture our children. Please help put an end to this by proclaiming infants as American human being homo sapiens with the same legal and medical rights that you and I big people have. Thank you.
Added to second-to-last paragraph of Jill’s oral testimony:
“I am also very uncomfortable with the fact that the very doctors who may be miscalculating due dates and fetal birth weights, or misdiagnosing fetal handicaps, are the same ones deciding that these babies should not be assessed after delivery. Shouldn’t these babies be given the simple opportunity for second opinion, just like you and I?”
more:
“After I held that baby, the weight of what I knew became too much for me to bear. I had two choices. One choice was to leave the hospital and go work at a hospital that didn
Will, I’m sorry but I think you are not genuine.
BTW,
here is what Jill has posted before about this particular situation:
Any human only has a 5-6 minute window in which s/he can be resuscitated
before suffering death or irreversible brain damage.
Please tell me…what do you think you would have done?
RE: Testimony of Jill L. Stanek, RN
Hearing on H.R. 4292, the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000”
…Well Done Good And Faithful Servant, enter into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I finally decided to listen to the actual call Will Duffy made to Focus on the Family. I must say it is absolutely misleading to say that the woman was intending to be deceptive in her reply.
Listen to the ENTIRE call here:
http://www.kgov.com/files/audio/bel/2007/FotFamilyStafferRePBAbanFullLength.mp3
Past the comment where she said that the PBA ban made abortion illegal in the last three months of pregnancy, listen to the whole call- she CLARIFIED in her second comment where she described partial birth abortions and that it was this procedure that was banned. She was not intending to mislead anyone, and she made herself clear. ONLY if you take her statement out of context can it mean what Will desperately wants it to mean.
Here’s where the KGOV site tells a half truth:
http://www.kgov.com/bel_56kbps/20070507
“* Dr. Dobson Staffer, “3rd trimester abortion outlawed!”: after we learned that Focus on the Family’s staff and call center were giving out false information about what the PBA ban actually does, Bob Enyart asked his general manager Will Duffy, to place just one call to 1-800-A-Family (Dr. Dobson’s ministry phone number), to record the call, and to request no one in particular, but just ask the question, “What does the partial-birth abortion ban actually do?” On this show, you can hear Susan from the Focus on the Family correspondence department answer, “The U.S. Supreme Court made it illegal for women to have an abortion in the last trimester.” Later in the call, Will asks for a clarification: “Okay, so that’d be the seventh, eighth, and ninth months?” “Yes.””
Did they mention what the woman said AFTER this which clarified what she had said? Of course not! This was intended to deceive!
Will, why would you intentionally deceive people and lead them to believe that Focus on the Family is lying to people about the PBA ban? How is this Christlike? Is this a Biblical concept, to lie?
Nearly everything you have written since you first posted here was a lie. I am disgusted at what you are doing.
Absolutely disgusted.
Yes Will D minus. How dare you??
Thanks so much….you have all given pro-choicers everywhere more ammunition against the pro-life side.
here
here
here
Let me know again how this public stance against other pro-life organizations is helping the pro-life cause?
Quinn, Lesforlife, I am answering your posts here, as the topic you posted in is about to disappear.
I’ve been thinking about this whole purist/incrementalist debate all night. And I actually do understand and agree with your position. I agree that God works in ‘all or nothing’ ways. For instance, when Moses told Pharoah to “let my people go”, and the pharoah’s heart was hardened, Moses didn’t then try to negotiate with Pharoah. He kept going and kept saying “Let my people go”, and eventually, Pharoah had no choice but to let Moses people go, after all of the plagues hit the land and he gave up.
I can see your point that it shows a lack of faith in God when we compromise with his principles.
So do you see that I acknowledge and understand your point of view? Now, if you can just understand…the way that you are all getting this across is not correct. You do not attack fellow believers publicly to get your point across. This is giving pro-choicers ammunition against us (and notice how they’re spinning it. Now they’re claiming Dobson wanted the PBA ban because he “wants women to be hurt”.
What you are doing is hurting our cause, not helping our cause. You are making pro-lifers look divided, and this shouldn’t be. We are all aiming for the same goal. If you want others to understand and appreciate your point of view, and your strategy, for believers, you should not be threatening lawsuits against pro-life organizations, and you should not be insulting and mocking those of your own faith.
You should contact pro-life leaders privately and discuss it with them in private. Whether they listen is not your job to make sure of. God takes seeds that we plant, and he waters them and He helps them grow. It is not your job to mature those seeds you plant in others hearts. And I can assure you that the insults that have been made to pro-lifers here, calling pro-lifers murderers, and calling the pro-life movement an “industry”, is not helping your cause one iota. It is making other pro-lifers want to distance themselves from you. Is ignoring one Biblical concept the way to promote another Biblical concept? Of course not.
Do you see where I am coming from?
Bethany said, “Will, why are you intentionally misinterpreting Hisman’s post? You know very well that Hisman is correct- the Bible does say that murderers can’t go to Heaven, and you know that it means an unrepentant murderer.”
I believe HisMan is very confused in his theology. I could be wrong, but I know this isn’t the forum for theology debate. In the dispensation of grace, we are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30) We can’t lose our salvation. So, yes, I believe a saved and eternally sealed Christian is capable of egregious sins such as murder.
Bethany said, “but you are purposefully trying to make Hisman and Jill out to be liars, and I do not appreciate that, from someone who calls themself a fellow pro-lifer.”
I don’t know what it would take to “make someone a liar” but I can assure you, I’m not.
Bethany said, ” If you are pro-life, don’t cause division among your own people! You’re fighting people who are on your side. This is ridiculous.”
I’m not trying to cause division, but trying to reunite the pro-life with a strategy that will not compromise on God’s command “Do not murder” and that will not backfire on the pro-life movement and more importantly, on babies. NRTL is the only one causing division, they kicked our CRTL. Do you agree with their decision?
Bethany said, “Will!! This comment you posted about Jill is outrageously insensitive and callous! You owe Jill an apology! I cannot BELIEVE the GALL you have to say such a horrid, HORRID thing.”
Bethany. I tried to be as humble and loving as possible. I said I was willing to discuss because I only had very limited knowledge of the situation. I wasn’t trying to be hateful, insensitive, or callous.
Bethany said, “Do you have any clue what you’re talking about? Do you think Jill could have made that baby live?”
Again, I admitted that I had very little information and was willing to discuss. Hope we can.
Bethany said, “I must say it is absolutely misleading to say that the woman was intending to be deceptive in her reply.”
Bethany, you’re frustrating me. Who ever said she was trying to be deceptive? She wasn’t! She didn’t lie to me, she actually believed what she was saying.
Bethany said, “ONLY if you take her statement out of context can it mean what Will desperately wants it to mean.”
This is not true. Everyone has admitted that she was wrong. She didn’t clarify that only partial-birth abortions were banned. Further, the ban doesn’t even mention the 3rd trimester, but only the 2nd. She was gravely confused. Ted Slater, an employee for Focus on the Family argued with me on another blog and after he finally listened to the phone call, the unedited one, he said, “Will — I just had a chance to listen to the recording you made of the phone call. It’s clear that Susan was mistaken, that what she told you was wrong. You are right to be concerned about her saying that abortion was been banned in the final trimester.”
Bethany said, “Will, why would you intentionally deceive people and lead them to believe that Focus on the Family is lying to people about the PBA ban? How is this Christlike? Is this a Biblical concept, to lie?”
We didn’t and I think you’re confused. We never once said that Focus lied, Focus intentionally deceived, etc., etc., etc., only that she gave out false information, which they’ve admitted! We never once talked about their intentions.
Bethany said, “Nearly everything you have written since you first posted here was a lie. I am disgusted at what you are doing.
Absolutely disgusted.”
Now this is a bit overboard. If you would be happy to point out at least one lie, I’d be happy to take a look at it. I also wish that Jill was held as accountable as you all hold me.
Bethany said, “Let me know again how this public stance against other pro-life organizations is helping the pro-life cause?”
I’m sure you won’t believe me on this either, but the pro-life movement is broken, and the biggest problem we face right now is that the pro-life legislation will actually keep abortion legal after Roe v. Wade will be overturned. I would love Jill to deal with this in a blog, but doubt she will. Just like I won’t stand with a pro-lifer who thinks killing abortionists is the right way to end abortion, I won’t stand with a pro-lifer who thinks regulating child-killing is the way to end abortion. I think we need to do this God’s way, not our way.
I believe HisMan is very confused in his theology. I could be wrong, but I know this isn’t the forum for theology debate. In the dispensation of grace, we are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30) We can’t lose our salvation. So, yes, I believe a saved and eternally sealed Christian is capable of egregious sins such as murder.
So are you saying you believe in grace?
I’m curious…because from what I read you talking about in another blog, you do not believe that people are saved through grace, but works. Am I right or wrong, or am I misinterpreting what you write?
I don’t know what it would take to “make someone a liar” but I can assure you, I’m not.
I didn’t say Make them a liar, I said “make them out to be liars.” Big difference there. That means, that you are trying to give other people the impression that they are intentionally misleading others…and how are you making them out to be liars? Oh I don’t know, maybe by CALLING them liars?
I’m not trying to cause division, but trying to reunite the pro-life with a strategy that will not compromise on God’s command “Do not murder” and that will not backfire on the pro-life movement and more importantly, on babies. NRTL is the only one causing division, they kicked our CRTL. Do you agree with their decision?
If you want to reunite pro-lifers, try not insulting their passion and dedication to the lives of unborn children by calling them murderers and fools. There are better ways of bringing your point home. And much more Biblical ways.
Bethany. I tried to be as humble and loving as possible. I said I was willing to discuss because I only had very limited knowledge of the situation. I wasn’t trying to be hateful, insensitive, or callous.
I’m sorry, but it is not humble and loving to assume that a person who has spent the last decade fighting to protect the lives of those who are threatened by the culture of death, a “murderer”. You may not have intended to be insensitive, but try to see it from Jill’s perspective. She sat there and had to watch a baby die, a death she had NO CONTROL OVER, as she cried and desperately wanted to do something for the baby. She was the one to do something about this tragedy! The other nurses just let the baby sit on a shelf to suffer to death, and she did something. You are –perhaps unwittingly –one of the MOST callous posters on this forum. I do not believe any of the pro-abortion people could have hurt her as much as you did by your comments. And you definitely owe her an apology for assuming that she was okay with letting those babies die in the closet. And no, there will be no “Discussing it” beacuse it’s just absolutely unfeeling to think you can try to place blame of babies deaths on a woman who has fought so hard to protect these babies from death all of these years. Please be a man and apologize.
We didn’t and I think you’re confused. We never once said that Focus lied, Focus intentionally deceived, etc., etc., etc., only that she gave out false information, which they’ve admitted! We never once talked about their intentions.
It was very strongly implied! Can you really not think that people are going to read “Dobson and his staff are giving out misleading information” without it giving the direct implication that they are doing it willingly?
In fact, you and others here have called it the pro-life “industry” and have claimed that they are fundraising not to help babies but to make money! How is this not describing intent? Explain.
Now this is a bit overboard. If you would be happy to point out at least one lie, I’d be happy to take a look at it. I also wish that Jill was held as accountable as you all hold me.
You have a lot of nerve coming here, after 1 month of pro-life service, thinking you can condemn all other pro-lifers who don’t do things exactly the way you do, and tell them they’re all murderers. It’s shameful.
You lied when you implied that pro-life organizations are in it just for them money.
You lied when you called Jill a “fool”,
You lied when you said she has blood on her hands of those babies that she has been working to save all these years (without even having any knowledge of her whatsoever),
you lied when you said that you didn’t know anything about the threat of the lawsuit by Bob Enyart.
Must I go on?
I’m sure you won’t believe me on this either, but the pro-life movement is broken, and the biggest problem we face right now is that the pro-life legislation will actually keep abortion legal after Roe v. Wade will be overturned. I would love Jill to deal with this in a blog, but doubt she will. Just like I won’t stand with a pro-lifer who thinks killing abortionists is the right way to end abortion, I won’t stand with a pro-lifer who thinks regulating child-killing is the way to end abortion. I think we need to do this God’s way, not our way.
If you want anyone to take you and your stance seriously, stop insulting people who want to end abortion as much as you do! I am sure Jill would be more than happy to post any new information you’d like to share. You pose a legitimate question which I’m sure she’d be more than willing to discuss, were you not insulting her by calling her a fool, murderer, and a liar without good reason.
If your only method of dispensing such information is to cause division among other people ON YOUR OWN SIDE who ABSOLUTELY ABHOR abortion just as much as you, no one here will take your seriously.
Bethany said, “So are you saying you believe in grace?
I’m curious…because from what I read you talking about in another blog, you do not believe that people are saved through grace, but works. Am I right or wrong, or am I misinterpreting what you write?”
Bethany, I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I’ve never talked theology on this site until the recent HisMan thing. I’ve never had any discussions on works vs. grace. Could it be that you’re also confusing me with someone else on other issues? Yes, we are currently in the dispensation fo grace, and we are saved by grace, completely apart from works. A little about me. I’m 24, married, teach biblical greek (koinh), preach on occasion at my church, and teach adult Sunday School. I’m also Bob Enyart’s manager.
Bethany said, “I didn’t say Make them a liar, I said “make them out to be liars.” Big difference there. That means, that you are trying to give other people the impression that they are intentionally misleading others…and how are you making them out to be liars? Oh I don’t know, maybe by CALLING them liars?”
You’re right, I misread that. Bethany, with regards to HisMan, I have no clue what you’re talking about. I said he was confused, not a liar. As to Jill, I don’t remember calling her a liar, but like I admitted to you before, I let my emotions get the best of me and that was wrong. I hope I haven’t done so since then. I did ask Jill to provide any evidence that Bob Enyart and/or Colorado Right to Life’s strategy to end abortion is a human life ammendment. I don’t believe that to be true, but that’s what she claimed in her WND piece. If she just made that up, that’s a travesty.
Bethany said, “If you want to reunite pro-lifers, try not insulting their passion and dedication to the lives of unborn children by calling them murderers and fools. There are better ways of bringing your point home. And much more Biblical ways.”
Well, I use the term “fool” because it’s biblical. I also use the term “hypocrite” for similar reasons. Other than that, I’m not much of a name caller. Bethany, I didn’t call Jill a murderer. The thought never even entered my mind. HisMan out of the blue asks me if I think Jill is a murderer, and I had absolutely NO CLUE why he said that. Coincidentally, the same day, my wife told me a reader’s digest version of Jill’s story, and it sounded like she may have some guilt on those babies deaths, hence my response to HisMan. To make it sound like I’m trying to prove my point by calling Jill a murderer is just unfair.
Bethany said, “I’m sorry, but it is not humble and loving to assume that a person who has spent the last decade fighting to protect the lives of those who are threatened by the culture of death, a “murderer”. You may not have intended to be insensitive, but try to see it from Jill’s perspective. She sat there and had to watch a baby die, a death she had NO CONTROL OVER, as she cried and desperately wanted to do something for the baby. She was the one to do something about this tragedy! The other nurses just let the baby sit on a shelf to suffer to death, and she did something. You are –perhaps unwittingly –one of the MOST callous posters on this forum. I do not believe any of the pro-abortion people could have hurt her as much as you did by your comments. And you definitely owe her an apology for assuming that she was okay with letting those babies die in the closet. And no, there will be no “Discussing it” beacuse it’s just absolutely unfeeling to think you can try to place blame of babies deaths on a woman who has fought so hard to protect these babies from death all of these years. Please be a man and apologize.”
She said the babies were born alive during the 2nd or 3rd trimester and that some lived past 8 hours. Babies born as early as 21 weeks grow up to be adults. The way it sounds to me is that with the proper medical attention, some of these babies could have survived had anyone (not just Jill) attempted to help it. Again, I have limited information about it, but when I put myself in the situation that I’m picturing, the first time I found out they were letting born babies die, and especially if I knew where they put them alive, I would grab them, and drive to the nearest hospital or something. I wouldn’t hold them as they died. For the record, I don’t think I called Jill a murderer. For the reading audience, I said that with the little information I had, that Jill seemed to share in some guilt for the deaths of those babies. Now, I’ve heard women testify who tied live babies in garbage bags, and drown babies born alive in botched abortions. These women are guilty in part for the murder of those babies, but that doesn’t affect my support for them and their pro-life ministry.
Bethany said, “It was very strongly implied! Can you really not think that people are going to read “Dobson and his staff are giving out misleading information” without it giving the direct implication that they are doing it willingly?”
Yes Bethany. If you heard our radio programs, we specifically said that Focus on the Family and James Dobson are NOT liars! We also explicitly stated that they are NOT intentionally deceiving us. Our open letter did help James Dobson finally admit that the PBA ruling “does not save a single human life.”
Bethany said, “In fact, you and others here have called it the pro-life “industry” and have claimed that they are fundraising not to help babies but to make money! How is this not describing intent? Explain.”
The pro-life industry is guilty of fraudulent fundraising Bethany. They do care to save babies, and not just make money, but they raised a quarter of a billion dollars for a ban that doesn’t ban partial birth abortion, but merely modifies it. They raised a quarter of a billion dollars without admitting that the PBA ruling will NOT save a single human life. They are only admitting that now, after the fact. Our call to Susan at Focus, and many other testimonies, including Lori Vance’s own mother, prove that the pro-life community was under the impression that the PBA ruling would actually save babies. They’ve been mislead. I agree with Mark Crutcher on the dangers of pro-lifers making a living off of abortion and trying to end it. Once you’re making a nice living while babies are being butchered, you may not want abortion to end so quickly. You’ll be happy to know that for this very reason, Colorado Right to Life board members are ALL volunteers.
Bethany said, “You have a lot of nerve coming here, after 1 month of pro-life service, thinking you can condemn all other pro-lifers who don’t do things exactly the way you do, and tell them they’re all murderers. It’s shameful.”
Bethany, this is gross. I’m not condemning all other pro-lifers and I’m definitely not calling them murderers.
Bethany said, “You lied when you implied that pro-life organizations are in it just for them money. ”
I never said this.
Bethany said, “You lied when you called Jill a “fool”
I’m not sure how that is a lie.
Bethany said, “You lied when you said she has blood on her hands of those babies that she has been working to save all these years (without even having any knowledge of her whatsoever)”
I didn’t lie. I was brutally honest that I had very little information and was willing to discuss.
Bethany said, “you lied when you said that you didn’t know anything about the threat of the lawsuit by Bob Enyart.”
Is this a lie Bethany? I never said this either. You claimed we spending money on suing other pro-life groups and I said there was no lawsuit and that there would most likely not be one. Of course I knew of the “threat” of one, but a “threat” doesn’t cost money, and that was what you were misrepresenting about us.
Bethany said, “If you want anyone to take you and your stance seriously, stop insulting people who want to end abortion as much as you do! I am sure Jill would be more than happy to post any new information you’d like to share. You pose a legitimate question which I’m sure she’d be more than willing to discuss, were you not insulting her by calling her a fool, murderer, and a liar without good reason.”
Again, I apologize for getting to emotionally involved. I would be ecstatic if Jill was willing to discuss this issue. It’s paramount. Babies are dying.
The pro-life industry is guilty of fraudulent fundraising Bethany. They do care to save babies, and not just make money, but they raised a quarter of a billion dollars for a ban that doesn’t ban partial birth abortion, but merely modifies it.
Who’s fault is it, Will? See, when you make statements like this, you may not be directly saying it, but the implication is that you are blaming those who raised money for the PBA ban, assuming they knew beforehand that no babies would be saved as a result of the ban, however continued on because they were motivated by their love for money, not driven by their desire to save lives. Are you trying to say that this was their intent? You will probably say you aren’t trying to imply this, however, that’s exactly what it sounds like.
Bethany, I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I’ve never talked theology on this site until the recent HisMan thing. I’ve never had any discussions on works vs. grace. Could it be that you’re also confusing me with someone else on other issues? Yes, we are currently in the dispensation fo grace, and we are saved by grace, completely apart from works. A little about me. I’m 24, married, teach biblical greek (koinh), preach on occasion at my church, and teach adult Sunday School. I’m also Bob Enyart’s manager.
No, it was something you said on another site about Jesus never teaching grace, but Law. You kept asking someone named Ted S. whether Jesus had ever uttered the word “grace”. I don’t know what your point of saying that was…what exactly was your implication by raising the point that Jesus never taught grace? I am curious.
Here is the link to the place I saw you discussing this:
http://thepoint.breakpoint.org/2007/06/final_thoughts_.html
Maybe you can help me understand more clearly what you were saying?
Well, I use the term “fool” because it’s biblical. I also use the term “hypocrite” for similar reasons.
What does Matthew 5:22 say about it?
Bethany, I didn’t call Jill a murderer. The thought never even entered my mind. HisMan out of the blue asks me if I think Jill is a murderer, and I had absolutely NO CLUE why he said that. Coincidentally, the same day, my wife told me a reader’s digest version of Jill’s story, and it sounded like she may have some guilt on those babies deaths, hence my response to HisMan. To make it sound like I’m trying to prove my point by calling Jill a murderer is just unfair.
I’m sorry if it seemed unfair but that is directly what you implied, even if you didn’t intend it to come across that way. I think that was more unfair than anything. Please, Will, try to have some empathy. What you must be putting Jill through by these false implications…
Bethany said, “you lied when you said that you didn’t know anything about the threat of the lawsuit by Bob Enyart.”
Is this a lie Bethany? I never said this either. You claimed we spending money on suing other pro-life groups and I said there was no lawsuit and that there would most likely not be one. Of course I knew of the “threat” of one, but a “threat” doesn’t cost money, and that was what you were misrepresenting about us.
It was a lie by omission, Will. You implied by your post you were unaware of such a thing. And you know that it’s very possible Bob Enyart could follow through with such a lawsuit…would you support him if he had?
Bethany, this is gross. I’m not condemning all other pro-lifers and I’m definitely not calling them murderers.
Will, come on…. You imply almost every time you post that “we” don’t “really” care about babies, but you do. You also imply that “we” share guilt in their deaths.
HisMan said:
“If the law is your foundation you and all of us are doomed because it’s about grace and not works lest any man should boast.”
Actually, knowing the law is very important because “the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ” as Paul told the Galatians.
So is keeping the law necessary your to keep salvation, Quinn?
Will, I noticed you commented on a post that has been bumped down.
Bethany, one thing Bob Enyart has taught me is to think very hard on issues regarding abortion. It’s too important an issue. I’m sure I’ll get some factual issues wrong in this analogy, but please bear with me. Let’s say you and I were debating this 100 years ago. Obviously technology was nowhere near where we’re at today. And you’re trying to convince me that we are trying to make abortion illegal except for the life of the mother. Do you see the danger there? Babies that can be prematurely delivered today and kept alive through medical help would surely have died 100 years ago. But you were so set on your ways that you helped overturn Roe v Wade by making it illegal to have an abortion EXCEPT for the life of the mother. Now fast forward 100 years today. Let’s say that law is still on the books, and what would us pro-lifers be fighting today? Our own law! Technology has made it possible for babies to survive younger and younger, yet our own pro-life law is now keeping abortion legal, and we’d have to fight our own law, to change it. I think that’s a pretty fair analogy. We can’t underestimate where medical advancements may take us. Hence, all I ask is that we never say it’s okay to abort or murder a baby, NEVER. Not even when the mother’s life is at risk. I value life, and so obviously you attempt to save both lives. To save the mother’s life, you remove the LIVING baby. You don’t kill it first and then remove it. You remove a living baby, no matter how far along that baby is, and attempt to save its life as well. Remember, 100 years ago, you would never thought it possible to save a 21 week old baby, but it’s happening! Praise God Bethany! If any law says it’s okay to kill the baby before removing it, we may have to fight our own law as technology moves forward. A good law, for example, would be to make abortion illegal in all instances, and when the mother’s life is at risk, you remove the living baby, and do whatever you can to save the life of the baby as well.
I know this is long, but one more thing. Stanek mentioned viability which makes me cringe. Let me tell you the short version of Brian Rohrbough’s story. (President of Colorado Right to Life) His son Danny was killed at Columbine by Dylan Klebold. As tragic as that is, later on his wife got pregnant, and her life was at risk, so they told her she would need to kill the baby to survive. The baby was 18 weeks. They suggested they induce labor and let the birth canal crush the baby’s head. Being pro-life, they obviously said NO to this advice. They removed the LIVING baby Bethany. Did it die as soon as they removed it? NO! They named it, they held it, they loved it, and spent every second of it’s life with him, their baby boy. As I recall, it lived less than a day. It died naturally, but they had a living baby and loved that baby, and bonded with that baby, and best of all, they didn’t have to murder it. Don’t buy into this viability garbage Bethany. That baby lived Bethany! It lived! Isn’t that incredible?
Of course it is, Will, and I completely agree with you. What would make you think I wouldn’t? Have you not figured out yet that when it comes to abortion, we are on the same side?
You’re acting as though you are trying to convert someone pro-abortion. It seems like you are intentionally misinterpreting what we mean by an exception for the life of the mother. We mean it in the exact same way that Mark Crutcher does when he says this:
“The official Life Dynamics position is that no action should be legally permissible if its intent is to take the life of an innocent human being.
Therefore, in recognition of the biological reality that human life begins at the moment of fertilization, the unborn child is entitled to the protection of the law under all circumstances and at every stage of pregnancy. In those extraordinarily rare instances in which a pregnancy poses an immediate and life threatening risk to the mother, she should be allowed to direct her physician to perform any medical procedure that is necessary to save her life. In that effort, however, the physician must always do whatever is possible to save the life of both mother and baby. If as an unintended consequence of saving the mother’s life, her unborn child loses its life, that should be viewed as a profoundly regrettable but lawful outcome. “
HisMan asked:
“Tell me, if a case were brought before Alito to overturn Roe v. Wade, would he do so?”
Nope. At least, not based on his previous decisions regarding abortion and his testimony before the committee prior to his appointment to the Supreme Court. We have 0 pro-life judges on the Supreme Court.
HisMan asked:
“It also says that thou shalt not committ adultery. Why aren’t you out there campaigning against adultery, or theft, or lying, or non-belief? When’s the last time you saw someone get arrested for doing the dirty on someone else’s wife? Why aren’t you just as outraged?”
I do promote re-criminalizing adultery as a capital crime and am making a special section concerning that in my re-designed website.
Bethany asked:
“….something you said on another site about Jesus never teaching grace, but Law. You kept asking someone named Ted S. whether Jesus had ever uttered the word “grace”. I don’t know what your point of saying that was…what exactly was your implication by raising the point that Jesus never taught grace?”
The point is that during Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry the focus was on obeying God’s law – ALL OF IT! The greatest and the least of the commands given in the Law (Matt 5:17-20; 23:23). Jesus is never quoted as using the word grace even once.
This changes when Christ raised up Paul to be the apostle who would go to the Gentile world. In fact, Paul refers to what he was given as “the house rules [economy/dispensation/administration] of the grace of God” in Eph 3:2.
Its a very significant fact to be aware of in order to righty divide God’s word accurately.
OK, HERE’S WHAT WE SHOULD DO GUYS!
The most effective pro-life tool has been the use of the big graphic signs in an area over time. Wisconsin had a much larger than average drop in abortions and that occured after the Missionaries To The Unborn had been pretty active showing those on the streets in Wisconsin what abortion is.
Let’s take all that money wasted on so-called “pro-life legislation” and put it towards buying a lot of big signs (with some VERY big signs) and over the next few years we will influence enough people and get enough momentum going as a result of showing the truth that we will be able to outlaw abortion in many states.
”
The point is that during Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry the focus was on obeying God’s law – ALL OF IT! The greatest and the least of the commands given in the Law (Matt 5:17-20; 23:23). Jesus is never quoted as using the word grace even once.
This changes when Christ raised up Paul to be the apostle who would go to the Gentile world. In fact, Paul refers to what he was given as “the house rules [economy/dispensation/administration] of the grace of God” in Eph 3:2.
Its a very significant fact to be aware of in order to righty divide God’s word accurately.
But who are you arguing with? I mean, you just tried to tell Hisman he was in error? What did Hisman say that he was incorrect about? I’m honestly curious. I didn’t see anything there that contradicted your views.
OK, HERE’S WHAT WE SHOULD DO GUYS!
The most effective pro-life tool has been the use of the big graphic signs in an area over time. Wisconsin had a much larger than average drop in abortions and that occured after the Missionaries To The Unborn had been pretty active showing those on the streets in Wisconsin what abortion is.
Let’s take all that money wasted on so-called “pro-life legislation” and put it towards buying a lot of big signs (with some VERY big signs) and over the next few years we will influence enough people and get enough momentum going as a result of showing the truth that we will be able to outlaw abortion in many states.
It’s a good idea to use the money for this purpose. Who do you see disagreeing with you? In fact, I believe Jill herself pickets using signs with those very pictures you talk about.
Is it a good idea to threaten a lawsuit in order to get the money back in order to be able to use that money for these advertisements, instead of just raising new funds? The reason I am asking this question again is because of the way you worded this:
“Let’s take all that money wasted on so-called “pro-life legislation” “, and considering the threat of lawsuit that was made recently by Bob Enyart, I feel that is another justification for the lawsuit. Correct me if I’m mistaken though, I could easily be.
If I had given say, $2000 over the past 10 years for the purpose of bringing an end to partial-birth abortion, and I found that these groups promoted a ban that would not result in saving even one baby from being slaughtered if the ban was upheld. Yeah, I would love to have that money back so I could buy some big signs and take a group out to the streets at least once a week.
I am going to receive a $1200 rebate from a company called Seasilver because they made claims that their product cured or prevented cancer and that kind of thing. I am getting back all the money I spent to buy it in the past. Basicly the same thing.
National Right To Life is a post-Christian and Republican controlled group that exists to promote Republican candidates . It should be defunded. So long NRTL and hellos more “purist” pro-life ministries!
If I had given say, $2000 over the past 10 years for the purpose of bringing an end to partial-birth abortion, and I found that these groups promoted a ban that would not result in saving even one baby from being slaughtered if the ban was upheld. Yeah, I would love to have that money back so I could buy some big signs and take a group out to the streets at least once a week.
So are you saying then, that it’s okay to ignore one Biblical principle in order to promote other Biblical principles?
Don’t you know what the Bible says about taking your brother or sister in Christ to “court”?
Here is one of the huge differences between the Kingdom Gospel Jesus preached to Israel during His earthly ministry and the Uncircumcision Gospel Christ gave to Paul to be preached to the entire world.
Matthew 10:25-28
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading [of it?”] 27 So he answered and said, ” ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Romans 4:4-5
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
The requirement to perform faith-works is one of the main differences between the Circumcison Gospel Christ committed to Peter and the Uncircumcision Gospel Christ committed to Paul.
Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
I don’t consider those in the leadership of NRTL to actually be my “brother or sister in Christ” to be quite honest. I could assume that they are, but that would be assuming too much.
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
I don’t consider those in the leadership of NRTL to actually be my “brother or sister in Christ” to be quite honest. I could assume that they are, but that would be assuming too much.
Besides, I don’t believe that Enyart is after the money knowing him. He mostly wants to bring to the attention of as many people as possible that NRTL and other pro-life groups misled millions of people into thinking that their efforts would end partial-birth abortion and from that promote a new and far superior strategy.
I’ll try and ask him about it today and find out if he doesn’t say on his radio show http://WWW.KGOV.COM
Quinn, is it up to you to judge their hearts, whether they are saved or not?
Here is one of the huge differences between the Kingdom Gospel Jesus preached to Israel during His earthly ministry and the Uncircumcision Gospel Christ gave to Paul to be preached to the entire world.
Matthew 10:25-28
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading [of it?”] 27 So he answered and said, ” ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Romans 4:4-5
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
The requirement to perform faith-works is one of the main differences between the Circumcison Gospel Christ committed to Peter and the Uncircumcision Gospel Christ committed to Paul.
Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Again, who are you arguing with? I am not getting your point?
Yes, I have a duty to judge whether an individual or group of people are actually members of the Body of Christ that I am a part of.
If Rudy Giuliani said he was a member of the Body of Christ would you give the same response accusing people of judging his heart?
NRTL gets $300,000 a year from the RNC and is an arm of the Republican Party. If Giuliani got the Republican nomination they would find a way to give him a 100% pro-life rating.
Yes, I have a duty to judge whether an individual or group of people are actually members of the Body of Christ that I am a part of.
If Rudy Giuliani said he was a member of the Body of Christ would you give the same response accusing people of judging his heart?
NRTL gets $300,000 a year from the RNC and is an arm of the Republican Party. If Giuliani got the Republican nomination they would find a way to give him a 100% pro-life rating.
Do you not believe that Christians have the capability of sinning? If Rudolph Guiliani professed faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, it would be wrong for me to tell others that he truly hadn’t accepted Christ. He could be a brother in error, and we would need to attempt to correct him of his error in holding onto the pro-choice lies, based on the Bible’s principles. If he didn’t listen, we have done all we can do. I believe that there are Christians who have misconceptions.
All of us are imperfect, that’s why we needed Christ for Savior.
NRTL gets $300,000 a year from the RNC and is an arm of the Republican Party. If Giuliani got the Republican nomination they would find a way to give him a 100% pro-life rating.
Why do you believe this to be the case? Do you have any evidence they would do this?
Just look at some of the “Republican candidates” RTL has supported over the years. That should be all the proof you need.
My church that I am a part of is made up of families who are members of the Body of Christ and who have not done something that would result in their being disfellowshipped like what Paul lists in 1 Cor 5.
I wouldn’t let Giuliani within 50 miles of any of my family!!
“May his days be few and another take his office” — Ps 109:8 Cf. Acts 1:20
Quinn, are you not aware that Paul murdered Christians before he was converted? Do you think that you would let your family within 50 miles of Paul, if he were alive today?
Why is it that you have no interest in loving or converting others who are misled, knowing that they could very well see the love of Christ in you, and change their heart, and become passionate for Christ?
How does one convert without love?
Giuliani is a vile old fart who is awaiting his own destruction. Only then may it be possible for him to have any kind of repentance and be saved.
Giuliani is nothing at all like the Apostle Paul. Paul was chosen from his mother’s womb to get the word out about Jesus Christ. Giuliani is just another power-hungry pro-abort who could care less what God says.
Are you saying that people wouldn’t have said that Paul was power hungry when he was out killing Christians?
How do you know what God has planned for anyone?
Paul writes: 9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Paul writes: 13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Acts 7:
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8
1And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
3I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Now, do you really think that you would have known, had you lived in the time of persecution, as “Saul of Tarsus” was murdering Christians, that God had a plan for him in the future?
Would you be all knowing and powerful enough to know beforehand whether God would be able to use him or not?
I think if I had lived in that time, I might have wished for Saul of Tarsus to die, and for someone else good to take his place.
But that is because I am a human and do not know what things God has in store for other people….
Even abortionists sometimes have callings by God. Take Bernard Nathanson, for instance. Would you have expected him, 30 years ago, to one day convert and repent?
Would you have known this in advance?
God can change hearts…Look, you might be right. Guiliani might be a liar and a hypocrite for the rest of his life. But then again, he might not.
Unless you are God, you do not know which people might be used for His Glory. A better idea in regards to Guiliani? Pray, pray, pray, that God will step into his life and show him the errors in his stance, and to help him take a firm stand against abortion.