$500 from government ok to abort, not adopt
TX Republican state Sen. Dan Patrick has introduced legislation to give an abortion-minded mother $500 to place her baby for adoption rather than abort. Complaints from the abortion industry are interesting, considering they would be perfectly happy to accept the same $500 from the government to abort. According to Associated Content:
Heather Paffe, political director of Planned Parenthood of Texas, said Patrick’s proposal “is very cynical and insulting to women and their families. It’s insulting to think women would make that kind of decision so easily,” she said.
But it’s not insulting and doesn’t make the decision any easier to be given the same $500 to abort?
Also according to Associated Content:
Fran Hagerty, of the Women’s Health and Family Planning Association of Texas, said the bill is “the stuff family nightmares are made of.” She called the proposed bill “insulting” to both women and “great charitable organizations” that find adoptive parents and take care of birth mothers….
And abortion is not the stuff family nightmares are made of? And why would it be “insulting” to get financial help for adoption?
Would Haggerty be “insulted” to take $$ from the state for abortions? Actually, no. The first priority of her organization is:
Seeking increased funding for family planning services for low income women and teens.
Also prominent on Haggerty’s site is the fact her organization is a 501(c)3 – nonprofit charitable – which Planned Parenthood is as well.
What hypocrites.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Because $500 is going to help a hell of a lot, let me tell you….
This is old news two… The SAWTRC group talked about this awhile ago.
I find this appauling.
Firstly, it puts a price tag onto an embryo, or unborn life. And a cheap price tah on top of that.
Secondly, it is hard to imagine the decision of whether to carry a pregancy and to give life or not will be swayed by an amount of $500. I doubt it covers any of the pregnancy examinations or any of the costs you incur when raising a child.
Thirdly, this implies a very nasty pciture of women who feel abortion might be their only way out. Women have different reasons to abort but to believe they are as shallow as that some cash could change these women’s minds-
Maybe it was well intended but I doubt it will do much other than insult people.
This doesn’t put a price tag on a baby, it would give the mother some assistance (however small you may consider it to be) should she “CHOOSE” to put her baby out for adoption instead of aborting it. 500 dollars may not be much, but it’s better than nothing.
I personally think the idea is terrific.
Quoting Dan Patrick from the article , “If this incentive would give pause and change the mind of 5 percent of those woman, that’s 3,000 lives.”
I think that would be a great step in the right direction.
Oops, sorry if that sounded mean. I didnt mean to “shout”… the caps were for emphasis. ;)
Hey Joe,If you think this is appauling,check out the next story.That filthy abortion clinic in NJ is opened again.GAG!!!!!
Bethany,
I guess you could see it like you see it- but I still think to say “fret not! Here you have $500 which will cover half of a
pelvic examination bill! Thus, keep the child and become a mother- if we think it’s worth 500 bucks, you can think so, too” dearly misses the point.
Momof3 I agree filthy clinics are always gag-worthy.
yes. just give women money to shut up and go away. that’s all we want. money and sex. we’re simple creatures, you know.
$500 dollars won’t even keep a roof over your head or food in your mouth for a month. it’s disgusting to think that a woman can be swayed by a couple hundred bucks just to change our minds about a life altering situation.
i would think pro-lifers would be insulted to. how can you put a pire on a potential life like that? it’s not even born! disgusting.
Joe, 3:35p, said: “Firstly, it puts a price tag onto an embryo, or unborn life. And a cheap price tah on top of that. Secondly, it is hard to imagine the decision of whether to carry a pregancy and to give life or not will be swayed by an amount of $500.”
Erin, 7:12p, said: “it’s disgusting to think that a woman can be swayed by a couple hundred bucks just to change our minds about a life altering situation.”
So you would both oppose the government offering a woman this choice?
And you would both oppose the government paying for abortions?
What if it was $5,000.00? Or 10,000?
What about women who take money from prospective adoptive parents?
Are you insulted cuz it’s not enough money? Or because it’s any money at all? I’m asking in all seriousness, because on the one hand you say you can’t believe someone would pay someone not to abort, and then follow it up with, “what are they supposed to do with a lousy 500 bucks?”
I mean, everyone keeps saying that often times these women abort because they can’t afford a child. On the other topic board we went back and forth about poverty, and how if we could eliminate it there would be less need for abortion.
mk
“What about women who take money from prospective adoptive parents?”
Woman take money from adoptive parents to help pay for the medical expenses that the birth mother has. They’re not buying a baby. They also tend to pay for much more that $500 of the expenses.
As someone who has been through a pregnancy, MK, you have to see how little $500 would help a poor pregnant woman, especially one on welfare or without health insurance.
$500 is not going to make these woman not poor or even help them with a pregnancy in the long run…
I could see woman being so desperate to get this money that they go, let themselves get “talked out of an abortion,” get the money, and then aborting illegally.
It’s crazy what people will do for money. :-(
no, i think the idea of offering money for someone to change their mind about having or not having a child is insulting. it’s like waving a lollipop in front of a kid’s face while it’s getting a shot. forget about how much you don’t want the shot, just take the sweets.
(and don’t tear me apart for comparing a fetus to a shot, it’s just an anology.) women can make up their minds without any help. thanks anyways.
and i don’t think that the government shouldn pay for abortions because in some cases, it’s life saving. my mother would have died if they didn’t remove the fetus lodged in her tubes. would you just say “oh well.” to her and let my family suffer all over a fetus that wouldn’t make it anyway?
Erin,
I’m not trying to upset you. I’m honestly asking. So try to chill. Look, offering a child a lollipop to bribe him to get his shots is actually a good analogy. The shot is something good. It is for the good of the child. But the child doesn’t want what is good for it. So you offer him something to soften the hardship.
I’m not saying to go around buying off everyone who wants an abortion, I’m just saying that if poverty is the reason a woman is aborting, then alleviating the poverty would be a good thing. It would still be her choice. No one is forcing her to take the money.
What if she is agonizing over this decision because she wants to keep the baby but can’t?
And some cash just might buy her the leeway she needs?
I can see why you would think this sounds like a baby black market thing, but I don’t think it is.
As to your mom having an ectopic pregnancy…
We have addressed this a number of times.
The intent was not to kill the baby. That was an unhappy consequence. The intent was to save your mother’s life. A very different thing. Even the Catholic church would have told your mom to go ahead and remove the baby. And we know how backward they are!:)
I’m sorry that you thought otherwise. I’m assuming that your mother would have wanted the baby if it had implanted where it was meant to. If so, then what she did was perfectly acceptable from our standpoint.
MK
Erin,
By the way, that fetus was your little brother or sister. His/her soul is still around. He/she was a complete and true person and at the end of time, we believe, that he/she will be given a new, perfected body and that you will get to meet him/her in person.
Happy thought, isn’t it?
mk
and i don’t think that the government shouldn pay for abortions because in some cases, it’s life saving
sorry, but this I couldn’t decipher. Can’t tell whether you skipped the “t” or added an “n” to should. It changes the whole meaning of the sentence.
MK
Erin,an ectopic pregnancy is different.It MUST be removed.Otherwise,the woman will die.
even if a poor wooman takes the money, 500 dollars does nothing.
i would like to that that about my brother and/or sister. we were all looking forward to it. thanks for putting it that way. but i have told this story before and some people have told me that my mom was sinning because it was her time and it was go’d plan. it ade me so angry. what about our plans? how were my brother and i supposed to survive college and growing up with out her? all because someone thought it was god’s bright idea. i still get people telling me my mother was wrong. it’s shameful.
yeah, i meant “i do think”
what about the woman that are suicidal or have mental problems and are completely uncapable not just of raising a child, but actually being pregnant? i think for the safety of the woman, that she should be allowed an abortion.
Speaking of shots, though it’s kind of a tangent from that. I tried to donate blood today since I finally weight 110. Wahoo! But I was told I couldn’t because of low iron… I’m probably the only person who’s ever cried because they were told they couldn’t donate.
Now I have to wait two months and try and get my iron intake up.
Erin, your mother didn’t do anything wrong if it was an ectopic preganancy..there is no way possible to save the baby…. and if the baby is not removed, both the baby and the mother will die.
MK is right, you will one day be able to meet your baby brother or sister again. I’m sorry that people have treated you and your mother that way.
Erin,
They just say depressed people shouldn’t have sex. Trust me I’ve talked to them about it recently (being a depressed person).
what about the woman that are suicidal or have mental problems and are completely uncapable not just of raising a child, but actually being pregnant? i think for the safety of the woman, that she should be allowed an abortion.
I would think that abortion would make her depression and suicidal tendencies even worse.
I would recommend counseling and some good friends who would help uplift her and encourage her through her time of need.
Bethany,
I don’t think it’s right to say that an abortion would make a woman with depression more depressed. It always could, but every woman is different and anyone who is depressed reacts differently to things. A pregnancy could very well make her more depressed than having an abortion. At least with an abortion she wouldn’t be taken off her medications.
Granted meds are a cured all of depression, but they do help to level out a mood tremendously. And I’m not just talking from hearsay, I’m talking from personal experience with depression meds.
And also why couldn’t friends help her through a time of need after an abortion as well?
Danielle,
You can be such a stinker sometimes.
You were the one that said you and your boyfriend weren’t having sex because it could end in a pregnancy. I commended you on your maturity remember?
Now go to your room!
MK
I don’t think it’s right to say that an abortion would make a woman with depression more depressed. It always could, but every woman is different and anyone who is depressed reacts differently to things. A pregnancy could very well make her more depressed than having an abortion. At least with an abortion she wouldn’t be taken off her medications.
But you could say the same about pregnancy. it’s not right to say that a pregnancy would make a woman with depression more depressed. It could but ever woman reacts differently to things. An abortion couold very well make her more depressed than having a pregnancy.
As for meds, I understand that they make you feel better for a time. in my opinion, they are a bandaid and not a solution (please understand I say this in a kind way)….the underlying cause is always still there once the medication is taken away…the depression remains time and time again if the medication is stopped. I remember you posting something about some horrible things that happened to you in the past, and I think that in your case that probably has much to do with the reason you have depression. Once you find a way to deal with your past (which, believe me, I know- it’s not easy)…you’ll find that you don’t even need the meds as much..and eventually, you’ll even realize you might not even need them at all. You have to find a way to care about yourself and not depend on the feelings of others to determine your worth.
God has a plan for you and everyone out there.
I have suffered from severe depression in my life and I know where you’re coming from.
I think if the government were to implement a healthcare plan like the ones in Canada and Britain where the cost of abortion is covered, that would be great. But I think that the government’s trying to bribe women is insulting. In South Carolina they want to force a woman to view the ultrasound to guilt her into not having an abortion. In Texas they want to pay her not to go. It seems like the pro-life camp is resorting to some pretty shoddy tactics in politics to get their way.
Danielle and Erin,
What I said was that if you are depressed and suicidal, then you probably aren’t making well thought out decisions. Not your fault, just that emotions have a way of taking over.
But if you know that you are depressed, and you know that a pregnancy could make you suicidal, then it would make sense to refrain from sex until you’ve got your illness under control.
I’ve been married for 26 years and abstain all the time because it isn’t/wasn’t the best time for a pregnancy. Also that time I told you I was on accutane for my acne. I abstained for an entire year, and I was married at the time.
You just make the most mature decision that you can for the best outcome possible. Serious depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia…all things which should give you pause when it comes to sexual relationships that can lead to pregnancy.
If it happens anyway, then I would say you need to be under the care of a very good doctor that can get you through the pregnancy with the least amount of damage.
Gotta go read the 5 book in the Chronicles of Narnia to the kids now. The kids and dog are in my bed waiting. Maybe I can come back after.
Otherwise, we’ll talk again tomorrow.
g’night my friends,
MK
Bethany,
I know that medicine isn’t a solution for depression. I never said that it was. But before I wasn’t even able to think of other ways to help myself. I’m now trying to work out (I’ve had some issues with my body rebelling) and eating healthier along with my boyfriend.
I’m also involved in more things that make me happy. I’m away from home which is wonderful. I’m part of Pride Alliance at my school and have met amazing people who have been through worse things than me. I’ve also started doing a lot of walk for Cancer/Alzheimer’s/AIDs. Helping people makes me feel a lot better.
I’m also planning on studying abroad next summer (in Germany). Which is something I never would have thought of doing before.
But like I said after being depression for a majority of my life I have a long way to go before I’m better and coming off the meds isn’t the answer (right now). I’m hoping to only be on them for two more years tops.
I tried seeing a psychiatrist, but it wasn’t helping and my medical and school bill are already a lot.
Why should pro-choicers have to pay for this?
There ought to be a special tax on right-to-lifers to fund this handout. Also, to pay for the cost of labor and delivery for all the pregnancies which would not be aborted by indigent women because of it.
How much extra tax $ would you be willing to pay for your share of the costs of rtl policy?
Danielle,
I also was turned away for a blood donation because of low iron. The tech gave me a brochure about the subject and one of the causes is drinking too much tea. Call your blood donation center and ask them for more info, or visit their web site.
Bethany,
I am sorry to hear that you have suffered from severe depression. I have too. But I have been healed through God’s power.
Let me pray for you through the internet:
Dear Lord Jesus, I come to Your Throne of grace boldly, seeking mercy and grace for Bethany in her time of need. Lord, if there is anyone Bethany needs to forgive, please identify that person. Lord forgiving is not forgetting or becoming a doormat, rather it is letting go of the bitterness that only destroys oneself.
Lord, you say that Your word will not return to You void but accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. Your word says that you heal and that we are to ask. So Father I am asking on Bethany’s behalf that you heal her completely.
Father, you are the same now and forever. You still heal Father. You may choose medication or rest or heal her directly Father. Our place is only to trust You and believe. Father, if there is an organic cause, please show her. If there is a psychological cause please bring her to only those who would speak your healing words to her and not the philosophies of men.
Lord, you know what she needs and I have peace Lord that you have already healed Her for you knew before I asked and have already made provision for her healing.
Lord, I believe that you will permanently heal Bethany of all depression as you have done for me.
Lord, I pray this in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
Perhaps someone was aborted that could have helped us cure depression.
How much extra tax $ would you be willing to pay for your share of the costs of rtl policy?
You mean as opposed to the tax dollars I now pay for abortion funding?
MK, abortion for indigent women doesn’t cost money, it SAVES money. You pay LESS tax $ because the government funds abortion for indigent women.
Every dollar you spend on abortion funding for indigent women allows you to save more than ten dollars on labor-and-delivery costs seven or eight months later.
The question was: how much extra $ are you willing to pay in taxes to cover the increased costs of right-to-life policies?
SOMG,
I’m not interested in “saving money”, I’m interested in “saving lives”.
We are constantly telling these girls that it’s all about money, and once again, you do my work for me.
2 dollars to fund abortion? 2000 dollars to save a human life? To me, that’s a no brainer. But so far all I can put in is my 2 cents.
mk
So would you support this policy if it meant you had to pay, say $2,000 more this year in taxes?
SMOG
The question was: how much extra $ are you willing to pay in taxes to cover the increased costs of right-to-life policies?
The answer is: As much as it takes.
Add to the PP tax funding I’m already paying, the fact that I pay taxes for public schools which promote promiscuity and abortion and the salaries I pay to the politicians who do the same and I think we’d break even.
mk
SMOG,
So would you support this policy if it meant you had to pay, say $2,000 more this year in taxes?
I already pay that in donations now. And time. 5 hours a week for two years at minimum wage, not to mention giving up my Saturdays with my family. 2000.00 more in taxes? Chump change.
MK
MK, you wrote: “…Add to the PP tax funding I’m already paying…”
Again (how many times does this need to be explained?) your PP tax funding SAVES you $. You pay LESS tax $ because the government funds PP.
Abortion is only part of it, btw. PP saves you $ by preventing and treating STDs at minimal cost which otherwise would spread more and cost more.
You wrote: “I’m not interested in “saving money”, I’m interested in “saving lives”.”
How about a $20,000 tax increase then? I mean, if $2,000 is chump change to you…..How much of the social burden of right-to-life policies are you willing to bear? And why should it be inflicted on the rest of us?
How about a $20,000 tax increase then? I mean, if $2,000 is chump change to you…..How much of the social burden of right-to-life policies are you willing to bear? And why should it be inflicted on the rest of us?
For the same reason I have to pay tax dollars so that you can continue to have sex sans marriage and do it without worrying about stds. Why should I have to pay for that?
You keep harpin’ on how much money I could save. Well, if you all would keep your clothes on and your tools in your pants, I wouldn’t have to pay anything. Why should I pay for you to live an immoral life?
As for the $20,000, sweetheart, first of all if everyone in this country put $20,000 dollars into the tax fund for anything, I’d drop dead from shock.
Second, would you put $20,000 into the tax fund to insure every American could have a condom and an abortion?
What next? Would I put $20,000,000.00 into the tax fund\?
Honestly, if I had $20,000 dollars, I’d put it in in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I don’t make that kind of money. But if I won the lottery I can tell you that the majority of the money would go to pro-life. Apparently money ranks right up there on your list of “most important” things in life. It doesn’t on mine. I’m not an idiot. I realize you need money to live. But I am not and never have been as enthralled by it as you seem to be. You can’t take it with you. And there is no price tag on my soul.
mk
Danielle, 3/26, 7:39p said: “I could see woman being so desperate to get this money that they go, let themselves get ‘talked out of an abortion,’ get the money, and then aborting illegally.”
Danielle, the legislation reads that a mother would be paid 30 days after she delivers.
Erin, 3/26, 7:39p said: “no, i think the idea of offering money for someone to change their mind about having or not having a child is insulting. it’s like waving a lollipop in front of a kid’s face while it’s getting a shot. forget about how much you don’t want the shot, just take the sweets.”
Erin, the very same analogy could be made for the government offering women money to abort.
Samantha, 3/26, 8:26p said: “But I think that the government’s trying to bribe women is insulting.”
Samantha, the very same analogy could be made for the government offering women money to abort. In this case, because we are speaking of poor women, you appear to support eugenics of poor people.
SOMG, 3/26, 10:17p said: “There ought to be a special tax on right-to-lifers to fund this handout. Also, to pay for the cost of labor and delivery for all the pregnancies which would not be aborted by indigent women because of it.”
Get with the times, SOMG. Every heard of Medicaid?
SOMG, 3/27, 5:48a said: “MK, abortion for indigent women doesn’t cost money, it SAVES money. You pay LESS tax $ because the government funds abortion for indigent women.”
SOMG supports eugenics. Re: the topic of our post, $500 to pay a poor woman to place her baby for adoption rather than abort would most likely elevate the social status of the child. You’d rather the child be killed than live a better life?
Finally, many pro-aborts on this thread have complained $500 wouldn’t go far. In actuality, $500 would be a bonus. You forget (or ignore) the fact that healthcare for pregnancies of poor mothers is already covered by a variety of government programs including welfare, Medicaid, CHIP, or local hospital social programs. Food is covered through food stamps or WIC.
You all whine that I call you pro-abortion rather than pro-choice. Look at yourselves in the mirror. You fight life at every turn.
Thank you, Jill! Finally, someone mentioned Medicaid and all the other various programs available for pregnant women!
“Samantha, the very same analogy could be made for the government offering women money to abort. In this case, because we are speaking of poor women, you appear to support eugenics of poor people.”
Im sorry, I wasnt aware that the government had ever offered women money to abort their pregnancies. If I believed that was the case, I would oppose that as well. And just because poorer women get more abortions doesnt mean that only poor women get abortions. So unless Texas was only giving $500 to poor people, your eugenics argument is unfounded, Jill.
Danielle, I completely disagree. Depression is an illness. It generally results from problems with neurotransmitters in the brain and their abilities to effectively use and reuse seratonin and dopamine. If a person was diagnosed diabetic, I dont think anyone would tell her that insulin was not a permanent solution to her problem and that she just needed some good counseling with a preacher. Psychology is often helpful, but it is not a solitary solution for a physiological problem.
Samantha, why is it that depressed people almost always have something that happened to them in the past…it seems too coincidental to me, as many people as I have known who were depressed…they all have a past that was extremely difficult for them. If there is a cause for the depression, I think the best way to solve the problem is to identify the cause, and find a way to either separate themselves from the cause or find a way to deal with it somehow.
Can you explain to me how it could be a coincidence that so many depressed people have had a terribly rough past, where someone, or many people, caused them to suffer in some way (all of them that I have met have been this way, but perhaps there are depressed people who had a very happy childhood? Maybe you can enlighten me?)
Once I was able to identify the cause of my depression, and remove that cause from my life (I had to separate myself from certain people in my life), I was able to get over my depression, panic attacks, obsessive thoughts about death and dying, etc. I wasn’t able to do it alone…I had to have God’s help…God helped me by sending my my husband, my best friend, into my life.
Bethany,
I know that medicine isn’t a solution for depression. I never said that it was. But before I wasn’t even able to think of other ways to help myself. I’m now trying to work out (I’ve had some issues with my body rebelling) and eating healthier along with my boyfriend.
I’m also involved in more things that make me happy. I’m away from home which is wonderful. I’m part of Pride Alliance at my school and have met amazing people who have been through worse things than me. I’ve also started doing a lot of walk for Cancer/Alzheimer’s/AIDs. Helping people makes me feel a lot better.
I’m also planning on studying abroad next summer (in Germany). Which is something I never would have thought of doing before.
But like I said after being depression for a majority of my life I have a long way to go before I’m better and coming off the meds isn’t the answer (right now). I’m hoping to only be on them for two more years tops.
I tried seeing a psychiatrist, but it wasn’t helping and my medical and school bill are already a lot.
Danielle, I think that it is great that you are making these steps towards your goal, and that you have support of friends. Helping others is a great way to heal also, so its great to hear you are doing that.
I know you’re still hurting from the past, but eventually, you will find a way to heal over time.
Samantha, 3/27, 8:23a, said: “Im sorry, I wasnt aware that the government had ever offered women money to abort their pregnancies. If I believed that was the case, I would oppose that as well.”
According to Guttmacher: “Some 74% of women pay for abortions with their own money; 13% of abortions are covered by Medicaid.”
okay, here’s the rub. Why can’t every woman having a baby say she was thinking about an abortion (even if she wasn’t) and get $500? I think they’re going to be writing a whole lot of checks.
SamanthaT,
Meds have helped me sooo much, but I just think that you need to do more than take the pills. They aren’t this magic happy pill that makes things better.
They’ve helped me so that I can help myself. If that makes any sense. Now that I’m on the meds and able to function as a “normal” person, I’m going to all that I can to try and live better so that hopefully one day I can be off of them. I don’t really want to be on meds for forever.
But I do see how saying that “meds are just a bandaide” can be dangerous. It was because of this mentality of many people around me that I didn’t seek help sooner. But I think you need a mix of meds and other things that make you feel better be it talking to a shrink, volunteering, exercising, ect.
Does that explain it better?
Jill,
“the legislation reads that a mother would be paid 30 days after she delivers”
Oh well in that case I guess they couldn’t do what I said then…
Would they get the $500 even if they gave the child up for adoption? Or do they have to keep.
Danielle,
TX Republican state Sen. Dan Patrick has introduced legislation to give an abortion-minded mother $500 to place her baby for adoption rather than abort.
I wonder what happens if they decide to keep the baby.
Either way, it seems like a win/win situation.
mk
They just mentioned this on ‘THE VIEW’ poor Elisabeth Hasselbeck was slammed by everyone on the panel for her pro-life views.Whenever she tells everyone that she’s pro-life,her audience always seems to take a collective gasp.Why can’t her position be respected?
Jill, you don’t seem to know the meaning of the word “eugenics”. It refers to the effort to improve the human race by preventing people with undesirable genetic characteristics from reproducing.
It does not refer to an effort to save money by preventing people from having babies they cannot afford.
There’s really no value in misusing loaded words. All you prove in the end is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Also, you wrote: “healthcare for pregnancies of poor mothers is … covered by a variety of government programs”
That’s the point. In order to pay for these programs, taxes must be levied. The more labors and deliveries the programs have to cover, the more taxes have to be raised.
So how much extra tax $ are YOU willing to pay to offset the cost of right-to-life policies? Why should pro-choicers, who do not support right-to-life policies, have to pay for the costs they incur?
Same reason the pro-choice position isn’t respected. If everyone respected everyone else’s position instead of getting angry and calling names, we’d be alot farther ahead.
SOMG, 11:15a, said: “Jill, you don’t seem to know the meaning of the word “eugenics”. It refers to the effort to improve the human race by preventing people with undesirable genetic characteristics from reproducing. It does not refer to an effort to save money by preventing people from having babies they cannot afford. There’s really no value in misusing loaded words. All you prove in the end is that you don’t know what you’re talking about.”
SOMG, some definitions of eugenics:
Derived from Darwin’s theory of survival of the fittest. The Nazis used false scientific arguments to discourage procreation by members who they considered were ‘unfit’ to live in society, either physically, mentally or socially.
http://www.bl.uk/services/learning/curriculum/voices/refglos.html
Eugenicists, at the end of the 19th century and start of the 20th, believed disabled people and other socially undesirable groups, such as vagrants and ‘moral defectives’, would weaken the gene pool of the nation and reduce competitiveness.
http://www.bfi.org.uk/education/resources/teaching/disability/further/
disabilityglossary.php
Literally meaning “well born.” Eugenics is a genetic and social theory whereby the human race is improved by selective reproduction whereby desireable characteristics are propogated and undesireable traits are eliminated.
http://www.uvm.edu/~cgep/Education/Glossary.html
Back at you, SOMG, although I must warn you I do bore quickly when volleying minutiae.
I wouldn’t call the correct usage of a word like “eugenics” minutiae (SP?). It’s an important word, with an important history.
And the definitions you have posted all confirm what I said: the word refers to an effort to genetically improve the species, NOT to an effort to save $ on labor-and-delivery costs.
SOMG, 11:23a, said: “So how much extra tax $ are YOU willing to pay to offset the cost of right-to-life policies? Why should pro-choicers, who do not support right-to-life policies, have to pay for the costs they incur?”
Interesting maneuver, SOMG. I think I could get American pro-lifers to agree to shift all tax money they are currently “contributing” unwillingly to fund pro-abortion groups and efforts over to fund government sponsored pro-life efforts. How does that sound?
Of course, to be fair, I would certainly agree for pro-aborts to choose the converse option.
SOMG, 11:44a: Yes, I spelled minutiae correctly. And ok, I’m bored, not that I didn’t warn you. This volleyball game is over. You accused me of misusing a word, and I refuted you. Live with the fact you support eugenics.
Excuse me, Jill. You DID misuse the word, and the definitions you posted SHOWED that you misused it, and now you’re trying to weasel out of admitting it.
And the definitions you have posted all confirm what I said: the word refers to an effort to genetically improve the species, NOT to an effort to save $ on labor-and-delivery costs.
So is that the only reason that you support abortion? To save on labor and delivery costs?
The reason I ask is because I seem to remember you saying this:
“Down Syndrome? What about cystic fibrosis? This dread genetic disease usually kills the victim in his or her 20s or 30s by a series of deadly lung infections which must be surgically cut out of the patient’s chest by expensive thoracic surgeons until there is no lung tissue left. If you give birth to a CF baby it’s all but certain that you will outlive your child (unless he or she gets a heart-and-lung transplant and it succeeds) and likely that his or her medical bills will bankrupt you in any case. We should be waging war against this gene! CF can be completely eliminated by early detection and abortion of positive pregnancies.
Most women who are at risk for CF pregnancies have no problem with this. The right-to-lifers among them are the problem.
It’s not at all obvious that women who conceive CF++ pregnancies should be permitted to grow them and bring them into the world. That is, unless one believes in the mother’s absolute freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference. “
Hmm, this seems to fit in perfectly with your definition, and Jill’s definition of Eugenics.
SOMG:
There are over 200,000,000 taxpayers in this country.
If it cost an extra $20,000 to save a life, that would only be an average tax increase of $.001 per tax payer. That’s 1/100th of a cent per saved baby.
If we could save 1 million babies per year, that’s a tax increase of only $1,000 per taxpayer. Seems like we have found a solution. Any politicians reading this blog? Perhaps we can save our country from the coming judgement and that at a very, very low cost.
I know, life is cheap.
Yes, Bethany, I suppose a call for war against a gene is by definition eugenic; I should probably have said that we should be waging war against the PHENOTYPE, not the gene. However, I would not call the current effort to prevent deadly genetic diseases like cystic fibrosis and sickle-cell anaemia by early detection and abortion of homozygotic-mutant pregnancies eugenic, because 1. we don’t prevent carriers from having babies who are carriers (heterzygotes)–we allow the gene to propagate and remain in the gene pool, and 2. the goal of aborting the homozygotic-mutant pregnancies is to benefit the individual family, not the human species as a whole, and 3. the abortion is done with the agreement of the mother, not by force.
You also wrote: “So is that the only reason that you support abortion? To save on labor and delivery costs?”
No, the more important reason is that forcing a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to carry it to term is an unacceptable violation of her personal freedom. The $ we save is a bonus we get for respecting her freedom.
How did you say you wanted to eliminate the disease, SOMG?
By aborting all the babies who carry it.
This means YOU support eugenics. Jill was not speaking of the whole pro-choice/pro-abortion side when she called you a Eugenics supporter. She was speaking about YOU.
You wrote:
“We should be waging war against this gene! CF can be completely eliminated by early detection and abortion of positive pregnancies.”
Too bad for you:
“The right-to-lifers among them are the problem.”
If it were up to you, SOMG, abortion would be not only legal, but actually coerced (or forced) in situations like these.
Read this again, SOMG:
” Eugenics is a genetic and social theory whereby the human race is improved by selective reproduction whereby desireable characteristics are propogated and undesireable traits are eliminated.”
And again, read what you wrote:
“What about cystic fibrosis? This dread genetic disease usually kills the victim in his or her 20s or 30s by a series of deadly lung infections which must be surgically cut out of the patient’s chest by expensive thoracic surgeons until there is no lung tissue left. If you give birth to a CF baby it’s all but certain that you will outlive your child (unless he or she gets a heart-and-lung transplant and it succeeds) and likely that his or her medical bills will bankrupt you in any case. We should be waging war against this gene! CF can be completely eliminated by early detection and abortion of positive pregnancies.
Stop tax funding of Planned Parenthood’s abortion machines
Stop the National Abortion Push!
March 27, 2007 | Refer a Friend
Ever since last November’s elections, which resulted in a pro-abortion leadership in both the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, national abortion groups have boldly pushed an agenda of death – forcing taxpayers to pay for it! In 2005 Planned Parenthood got $272 million in our taxes, twice the money it made from its 255,000 abortions that year. Since 1987 Planned Parenthood has taken in $3.2 billion in taxpayer funds for its deadly agenda.
Now these groups want even more taxpayer funding for their death march. Just last Friday, Senator Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) sent a letter to her Senate colleagues asking for a boost of $100 million, specifically for Planned Parenthood clinics!
Even more reprehensible are the attacks on legitimate women’s clinics, pregnancy care centers (PCCs), which protect the health of both the mother and the unborn child. Planned Parenthood and NARAL want to close these pregnancy care centers down. Currently, legislation in Oregon blatantly lists NARAL and Planned Parenthood as co-sponsors of a bill that targets pregnancy care centers for closure. We must send a message to these abortion profiteers that we’ve had enough!
Please e-mail the Oregon legislature and ask them to stop this taxpayer-funded, pro-abortion vendetta against legitimate clinics that help women in a time of need.
Stop the National Abortion Push!
Sincerely,
Tony Perkins
President
Yeah, sounds like they’re really trying to save us tax money, huh?
By the way, you can sign a petition to stop Planned Parenthood Tax funding at the link below:
http://stopplannedparenthoodtaxfunding.com/
Bethany, you wrote: “How did you say you wanted to eliminate the disease, SOMG?
By aborting all the babies who carry it. ”
No Bethany, not by aborting the carriers (heterozygotes). Only by aborting the phenotype-positive pregnancies, the homozygotes. (Do you know what homozygotes and heterozygotes are? If not, then you need to read an elementary genetics textbook.) That’s not eugenic because it allows the gene to propagate and remain in the gene pool. (I seem to recall mentioning this before.)
You also wrote: “If it were up to you, SOMG, abortion would be not only legal, but actually coerced (or forced) in situations like these.”
** YAWN ** I have already shown, by quoting from my original post, that this is not true. Had a short exchange with Jill and MK about this. Go back to my original post and read the whole thing this time.
You should try to understand the argument before you engage in it.
Tony Perkins (and Bethany), funding PP saves more taxpayer money than it costs. Every dollar we invest in PP saves more than ten dollars by preventing subsequent additional medical costs.
You will not save $ by cutting PP funding. On the contrary, you will incur greater costs, and (ultimately) higher taxes.
SOMG,
I’m sure the dead babies would be impressed with your arithmetic.
I find you very interesting SOMG. Tell me, have you actually been diagnosed as a sociopath, or is it just something you live with. Were you born without a conscience, or did someone do this to you? Were you a bedwetter? Torture small animals? Like to start fires…?
Let’s just keep going though…nothing gives me greater pleasure than discussing cutting costs by killing children as if we were discussing the price of avocados vs the price of pomegranates.
mk
Jill asks:
“So you would both oppose the government offering a woman this choice?
And you would both oppose the government paying for abortions?”
I still maintain that $500 dollars will not change a woman’s mind when she seriously considers and abortion. Is your question aimed at: why would the government have to offer incentives only on the death-side of the matter? I am not sure that is comparable here. You would not offer a cancer patient 500 bucks to forgoe a chemo he might not need to recover. there is alternative medicine against cancer but usually, patients want the care that they feel is best and most efficient for them and provides the biggest benefit. yes yes, chemos might save a live while abortiond efinitely terminates one. But if you look at it in terms of a private medical decision (as many people do): Would you feel insulted if the government told you: you get 500 dollars if your grandson tries the herbal treatment for his leukemia? You have to imagine that you already made up your mind about the treatment and have come to the decision that chemo is the best and only option and that herbs don;t work.Considering you are talking about a life here, you probably thought about the options carefully.
I have been thinking about government funding for abortion before. I think if you look at abortion as a medical decision, as soon as the pregnancy poses any danger to the mental or physical health of the woman, the government should definitely pay for it, as they pay for any medical procedure that a patient needs.
If it is a ‘life-style choice’I feel the woman should pay up for it. UNLESS she cannot afford this financially.In order to avoid making abortion an option for the rich only, extremely poor women should be able to get it on their insurance. I would not want to see a woman choosing to end a pregnancy simply because she cannot afford it, but I also would not think it right to force a woman to carry a pregnancy just because she cannot afford otherwise. Just the other day a poor girl in New York I think induced an abortion completely inappropriately considering the stage of pregnancy she was in and it is too dangerous. If you don’t manage to scrape the money for an abortion together, you are probably in too dire straights already.
SOMG,
Perhaps you have seen the movie Life Is Beautiful (You probably didn’t understand it, but no matter)
There is a scene where a German school teacher is discussing mathematics at a fancy dinner. It follows:
Third grade. Listen to this problem.
I remember it because it shocked me.
A lunatic costs the state four marks a day.
A cripple, four and a half marks.
An epileptic, three marks and a half.
Considering that the average is four marks a day…
and there are patients, how much would the state save…
if these individuals were eliminated?
I can’t believe this!
That was my exact reaction.
I can’t believe a seven-year-old child
has to solve this kind of equation.
It’s a difficult calculation. Proportions, percentages.
They need at least some algebra to do those equations.
That’s high school material for us.
No, all it takes is multiplication. You said there are cripples?
times four.
If we killed them all, we’d save , marks a day.
– It’s easy! – Exactly!
But you’re an adult. They make seven- year-old children do this in Germany!
It’s truly another race.
Did you write this or is it a coincidence?
MK
“And you would both oppose the government paying for abortions”
I’m against the government paying for war, but I don’t see anyone carrying about that. $350 BILLION have been spent on the Iraq war. And then we wonder why healthcare in this country is so poor? Blah.
MK,
That is one of my favorite movies. It is amazing.
but you are talking about Nazi Germany. Don;t use them as areference to much. Or I can tell you a few things about Forced Breeding in Nazi Germany which some pro-choicers feel is what the government here is trying to propagate slowly yet surely. Nazi Germany works both ways in this debate ;)
Yeah Great point, Danielle
Let’s just stop paying taxes for everything I hate. I hate wars. I finance it. I am against thed eath penalty. I finance it. I hate the heavy protectionism of our agriculture that gags farmers in the Third World. I finance it. I am against abstinence-only sex ed. it received government money.
The list is long.
Start picking and choosing, allow it for everyone, and you live in anarchy. Sounds like a nice plan but doesn’;t work. That’s the restraint society puts on you.
MK, you wrote: “I’m sure the dead babies would be impressed with your arithmetic.”
If Tony Perkins’ concern is the dead babies, he should just say so. He should not pretend that funding PP costs taxpayer $ when he knows perfectly well that funding PP SAVES taxpayer $. That’s called lying.
You wrote: “I find you very interesting SOMG. Tell me, have you actually been diagnosed as a sociopath, or is it just something you live with. Were you born without a conscience, or did someone do this to you? Were you a bedwetter? Torture small animals? Like to start fires…?”
Ummm didn’t Jill say something a while back about deleting abusive and off-topic posts? “Taunts” were specifically prohibited, as I recall.
Come to think of it, they called Socrates a sociopath too.
“Let’s just keep going though…nothing gives me greater pleasure than discussing cutting costs by killing children as if we were discussing the price of avocados vs the price of pomegranates.”
It’s called the real world. Again, we fight for abortion rights because forcing women with unwanted pregnancies to carry them to term is an impermissable violation of personal freedom. But we WIN (in the long run) because abortion is so much cheaper than childbirth.
In places where forced abortion is routine (such as China) the economic force works AGAINST personal freedom. G*d help us if that ever comes about in the USA.
I’m so glad I can afford the services that Planned Parenthood offers to women with low incomes. I will loathe the day you anti-choicers get your way and stop federal funding to Planned Parenthood.
So many women will be affected and their reproductive lives destroyed. They will no longer get the choice to have a safe abortion, get access to free or low cost contraceptives and STD treatments, and will not get the same access to information and welfare programs to help them out even if they DO keep their children.
I never wanted to believe so many well intentioned men and WOMEN could be so misogynist in their policies. Trying to create policy that disproportionately affects women.
I have been nothing but kind and polite on this blog. But I’m done. I challenge all of you against PP to take a critical look at your so-called Christian hearts and ask if Jesus himself would take the opportunity for a healthy life away from millions of women just so a fetus can make it to birth and then be reduced to the lowliness of everyone else when it can’t get food or shelter or have a mother with the resources necessary for its survival.
I weep for my future. I’m young, so I will do everything in my power to stop people like you who claim to behold the giving and charitable Christian ethic from dragging women down to less than the second class citizens they already are.
Stop sexism. If not, then stop calling yourselves caring Christians.
Jen
I think only 13% of PP is funded by the government anyways? Maybe I remember it incorrectly but since Roe funding has been constantly cut.
Bethany,
Many illnesses are the results of environmental factors. Of course a person who has suffered a traumatic experience or several years of abuse will become depressed. The problem is when their brains are not able to naturally return to a healthy balance of emotions. If someone constantly beats you as a child, it is going to be very difficult for the dopamine receptors in your brain to work effectively, even after you have escaped the abuser. This is a natural consequence of not exercising that particular physiological mechanism, just as someone who is paralyzed and does not walk will lose the muscle mass in their legs. Other mental illnesses, like bipolar disease, dont usually manifest until the patient is in their early twenties. For someone with mild depression, the therapy may be all that is necessary. For someone who is suicidal or who suffers from violent mood swings, the problem needs to be corrected. Sometimes the brain will resume normal activity after some time with medication, and sometimes it will be necessary for the person to take the medication for the rest of their lives. Im sure that MK can contribute to the fact that a person with a chemical imbalance does not need to be told that they should not take medication.
Joe,
The percentage probably is pretty low, since right wing religious conservatives are so desperate to stop the filthiness of sex they pretty much will stop at nothing to get funding stripped from any organization that hints at things like abortion or contraceptive services. It doesn’t really matter to me. What matters is that people think that the government should strip the bare bones funding PP already has and to try to stop private organizations from donating as well. Like labeling the Komen Foundation for Breast Cancer as a terrible group funding abortions and cancer causing medications.
Looks like the only people who deserve to be healthy in this country according to a lot of people on this blog are WASPS, families who practice NFP, and every fetus until birth, after which they will experience the lack of social programs and welfare funding keeping most of them alive.
Ok I see what you’re saying Samantha. ;) It makes more sense now.
Jen, 4:36p, said: “I challenge all of you against PP to take a critical look at your so-called Christian hearts and ask if Jesus himself would take the opportunity for a healthy life away from millions of women just so a fetus can make it to birth and then be reduced to the lowliness of everyone else when it can’t get food or shelter or have a mother with the resources necessary for its survival.”
Challenge accepted. Here is your solution to social woes you described: Abortion.
Here is the Christian solution: to launch thousands of pregnancy resource centers around the country to educate mothers free, provide maternal and baby clothing free, provide healthcare free if she can’t afford it, provide housing free if she needs it, provide diapers free, etc., etc., etc.
Giving? Turns out conservative-headed homes give about 30% more to charity than liberal-headed homes, and conservative-headed families make less money. (http://newsbusters.org/node/9323).
(As an aside, conservatives are 18% more likely to give blood than liberals, too.)
Speaking of bringing children into poor homes, a conservative has suggested giving mothers $500 to adopt rather than abort. You apparently prefer that child’s death.
SOMG, you know some big words. Yay for you! ;-)
Unfortunately, it still doesn’t change what you wrote. ;) Any idiot could read the above paragraph that I quoted you on and know exactly what you meant.
Bethany, you wrote: “Any idiot could read the above paragraph that I quoted you on and know exactly what you meant. ”
Then you must be a very special idiot indeed (not just “any” idiot) because you read it and got the meaning wrong.
“(As an aside, conservatives are 18% more likely to give blood than liberals, too.)”
HEY! I tried to give blood just yesterday…
Since I turned 17 I wanted to, but until now I’ve always been under 100lbs. I’m finally to 110 and they turned me down. :( Because of low iron. Which I found out can be caused by having your period–which I have at the moment–bad timing. I actually cried when they told me that I couldn’t because I was so excited. You can bet I’m going to work on eating more foods with iron and I’ll be trying again in two months (the soonest that I can).
My boyfriend (who is also liberal) has O- and they give it to babies who need it. :-P
“Turns out conservative-headed homes give about 30% more to charity”
Hmm, I’m in college and I’ve raised over $400 for charity events (not including the money I’ve helped raise for walks for research), about $200 of that being my own. I’m actually helping run a program on campus for women suffering from domestic abuse. Not that you would care about that Jill since you support it.
I wonder, Jill, what do you do besides this blog?
Danielle, it wasn’t said that non-conservatives do not donate to charity… only that conservatives are more likely to do so. :-)
Maybe your next blood giving trip will be more successful than this time!
BTW, My daughter has type -o blood too… None of the rest of us have anything but A. :)
And how exactly does one find out this statistic since they certainly don’t ask your political stance when you donate blood.
And considering that conservatives are still in the majority (blah) so reason kind of tells us that there will be more… Because theres MORE of them.
Jen,
will not get the same access to information and welfare programs to help them out even if they DO keep their children.
Why?
mk
Joe,
but you are talking about Nazi Germany. Don;t use them as a reference too much.
While the similarities are stark, I was actually comparing them to SOMG’s views on Eugenics.
But if the shoe fits…
MK
Jill,
Your proposal to replace abortion clinics with moral and sane programs is shear genius.
Where do I send my conservatively earned money?
SOMG,
“G*d help us if that ever comes about in the USA.
People like you threw God out our government a long time ago. Seems a little hypocritical to be asking Him for help now.
If Tony Perkins’ concern is the dead babies, he should just say so. He should not pretend that funding PP costs taxpayer $ when he knows perfectly well that funding PP SAVES taxpayer $. That’s called lying.
Forcing me to pay money into something that makes my stomach turn, that is against every principle (look it up since it’s obvious you don’t know what it means)I believe in while pretending to care for women…well, that’s cheating.
Ummm didn’t Jill say something a while back about deleting abusive and off-topic posts? “Taunts” were specifically prohibited, as I recall.
I wasn’t taunting you…I was asking a simple question? You exhibit sociopathic thinking patterns and I was wondering if you’d had them diagnosed. Sheesh…touchy. Strike a nerve?
Come to think of it, they called Socrates a sociopath too.
See, I wasn’t taunting you. Just pointing out something that you perceive as a positive trait. I was complementing you. I’ll try again. Gee SOMG, you sound just like Socrates. (Grandiose thoughts) Wasn’t he a sociopath?
But we WIN (in the long run)…
Actually, I’ve read the Big Book, and um, I’m pretty sure we win.
Still time to change sides. Personally, I hate being on losing teams.
mk
Jen,
I weep for my future.
I weep for your future too, Jen.
I weep for all the young people today.
I blame our generation. We went wrong somewhere.
What a horrible legacy we are leaving you. We have taken away every moral tool, every decent principle, every honorable code and left you with this broken, lawless, pathetic world. I pray that you can turn it around before it’s too late. And I’m sorry that we’re asking you to do what we so obviously didn’t.
It’s like we had a great big party…endless keggers, no parents home, people pukin’ in the bathroom,
and then left you guys to clean it up. Sorry. I really am.
MK
MK
MK,
Easy on SOMG. Or would you like me to take him on?
SOMG
Could that mean….Son Of Midget (the car)?
Samantha,
Im sure that MK can contribute to the fact that a person with a chemical imbalance does not need to be told that they should not take medication.
Amen to that babe.
Tommy is now on a med that is meant for people with narcolepsy. It hasn’t been approved for bi-polar, so his insurance company won’t pay for it. He has to pay out of pocket and the pills are expensive. His doctor gives him samples whenever he can, but sometimes he just doesn’t have the money. This is a secondary med, not the primary one, so it isn’t imperative to his funtioning, just the fine tuning.
I can tell within five minutes of talking to him whether he took it or not.
No doubt in my mind that many, not all, but many depressions are chemical.
MK
Bethany, you wrote: “Any idiot could read the above paragraph that I quoted you on and know exactly what you meant. ”
Then you must be a very special idiot indeed (not just “any” idiot) because you read it and got the meaning wrong.
Posted by: SOMG
Ummm didn’t Jill say something a while back about deleting abusive and off-topic posts? “Taunts” were specifically prohibited, as I recall.
Did you know that sociopaths don’t think that “rules” apply to them? They feel they are above such mundane things.
SamanthaT:
There you go again, sounding wise but with no wisdom when you stated: “Many illnesses are the results of environmental factors.”
No, all illness, sickness, and death are the result of sin. If you want to call sin the overriding environmental factor, then I would agree with your statement. However, the conclusion to your statement is that if environmental factors were ALL corrected or normalized there would be no disease and no one would ever die. Wrong, illness and sickness and death are spiritual problems manifesting themselves as physical problems. So-called “science” is beginning to make the connection or should I say catch up with what the Bible has said all along.
Satan came to kill, steal, and destroy, so please stop trying to deceive Danielle’s young impressionable mind by misleading her into your snare baited with smooth sounding words that appear to be wise.
Danielle, careful what you believe. Question everything. Question what I say and what SamanthaT says. Use God’s word as the standard for everything. Then you will be exercising true wisdom….the correct application of knowledge.
Why HisMan,(blush)
I think I’m developing a crush on you. Where have you been hiding this wicked sense of humor?
Ladies and gentlemen, you have witnessed a miracle.
(Sound of applause)
Welcome oh transformed one. Bring it on. I’m lovin’ it!!!!
mk
Samantha,
You never told me what you thought of Padre Pio.
MK
HisMan,
I’ll agree with you that sin causes spiritual illness. And that original sin brought death and sickness into the world. But Danielle still needs her meds. For now. Once she is stabilized, you’re right. Working on her soul will only make her soar.
But truly, for people with clinical depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia (sorry SOMG, there’s nothin’ out there for sociopathy) meds are a necessity. Just like for people who need insulin.
Medicine used to leave out religion. We musn’t swing so far to the other side that Religion leaves out medicine. We have to work on the “whole” illness. Spiritual, physical, mental…only then will a total healing take place.
My son went on meds, but he also began going to daily mass and spending time in the adoration chapel. He goes to frequent confession and changed all of his friends. Joined a 12 step program.
And now, voila. He is healing, all the way through.
MK
MK, you wrote: “Forcing me to pay money into something that makes my stomach turn, …”
But you don’t “pay money into” abortion, my poor unable-to-understand-what-she-reads child. You draw money out of it. You pay lower taxes because of it.
“Actually, I’ve read the Big Book, and um, I’m pretty sure we win. ”
You actually believe that abortion will be criminalized in the USA again? That Americans will tolerate a black market in abortion? That’s the stuff of cheesy speculative fiction. Maybe in one of the “Left Behind” novels.
Do you also believe that our constitutional government will be replaced by a christian theocracy?
MK,
I guess even soldiers have to have a laugh during the battle.
Trouble is, we’re losing more and more babies by the second and for me one more is one too many.
How about we separate pro-deathers and pro-lifers into two separate countries. Let’s come back in 34 years and see which one is prospering and which one is dying. What do you think?
Son Of Mid Get:
Sure your big shoulders can bear that heap of sin you’re piling on yourself with all those self-condemning words you use?
Or, big man, haven’t you looked into the mirror lately?
Your hair’s looking kinda flat and it’s not a brush cut.
The time’s they are a changin’.
HisMan, you wrote: “Question everything. … Use God’s word as the standard for everything.”
Which of these two should she do? Should she question everything, or should she use God’s word as the standard for everything? She can’t do both, because questioning everything would include questioning God’s word and then how could she use it as a standard?
I mean, you can’t have it both ways.
BTW, SOMG stands for Spirit of Martin Gardner. Martin Gardner was a debunker of junk science and he would have had a field day with Jill’s blog.
HisMan
If that little experiment wasn’t so unethical, I would love to see the results. My guess is that the pro-choice camp would see a decrease in the demand for resources, so a lot of abortions wouldn’t happen.
Pro-lifers, either not using contraception or not aborting, would probably have a population explosion that overuses resources.
Like all populations of species in this world, the number will fit the resources. Any explosion will suffer a downfall because there’s simply not enough to go around for everyone. Any dip in population would see a surplus of resources, encouraging reproduction. Both populations would probably even out, if no one carried either perspective to the extreme.
MK
I was referring to the fact that PP does much more than provide abortions. Not only do the provide contraceptives and STD treatments, they offer accurate literature and access to programs many women need with children (i.e. they can help you fill out WIC applications in the event you KEEP the baby).
So, trying to shut down or decrease funding to PP ends up doing harm to BOTH pro choice and pro life women. The only people it wouldn’t harm are the ones I mentioned above. Rich WASPS who can afford private medical care.
Decreasing funding to PP would affect women with low incomes, both those seeking abortions and those seeking help in the event they keep their children.
MK
I only weep for my future not because we live in a godless society but because the religious or personal views of some could restrict the health and choices of others. Your championing of the fetus is what Lee Edelman calls “futurism”, the drive to make the world liveable for the beings of tomorrow or at least insure that they see tomorrow. This “futurism” is what he thinks is the driving force behind discrimination against gays, pornography, and feminism. The ultimate desire to exterminate anything “queer” in any manifestation so as to preserve the pureness and innocence of children and children to come. The problem is that this drive is justification for discrimination and misogyny which hurts the people living today and makes current life unbearable for many who won’t get to see the future life you are so desperately cleansing for the fetus.
It’s weird how people who champion “the right to life” don’t understand the rights rhetoric we construct in the US.
That whole “I can’t have your bone marrow so why does X fetus get my womb” argument seems too good to be answered, seeing as how I’ve posted it at least 4 or 5 times with maybe only 1 response, if that. And those responses make no mention of the rights rhetoric in the US or even how our laws are constructed. Seems I’m still waiting for a good answer.
I weep that one day the religious right might take even greater control over the republican party and that it may affect my ability to be an autonomous, healthy person.
Actually, Jill, abortion is not my “solution to societies woes”. It’s my assertion that a woman should have autonomy over her own organs just like everyone else does. A man can deny bone marrow to someone who desperately needs it, so a woman should get to deny a womb to a fetus too.
My solution is to keep places like Planned Parenthood open who not only provide or help with a lot of the things you listed, but also acknowledge the autonomy and personhood of the woman in question.
I’m not going to cite Freakonomics and tell you abortion decreases crime. It probably does. But that is not why I am pro-choice.
I’m pro choice because I think women should have the same rights as everyone else. The choice to grant and deny access to their internal organs, regardless of the recipient.
SOMG,
Sometimes my six year old insists on things that the rest of the world knows are untrue. Like he’ll wake up on Monday morning and insist that it is Tuesday. We’ll explain the days of the week, and he’ll counter with his faulty reasoning. We’ll pull out the calendar and show him and he’ll counter with more faulty reasoning. On and on…
Finally I will say to him “Johnny, if you want to believe that today is Tuesday, you may. This is a free country and you can believe whatever you want. And no one, not even me, can force you to believe other wise”
Then as I turn away from him I say: “but you’re wrong”
But you don’t “pay money into” abortion, my poor unable-to-understand-what-she-reads child. You draw money out of it. You pay lower taxes because of it.
you can believe anything that you want an no one not even I can make you believe otherwise SOMG.
But you’re wrong.
I pay taxes. Tax money goes to PP. I don’t care if I will save money in the long run. I pay taxes and my tax money goes to PP. It doesn’t matter if I pay lower taxes because of it. I pay taxes. My tax money goes to PP.
Left Behind is a protestant book (no offense to protestants) and as a Catholic I don’t believe in the rapture. So no, I haven’t read it. But I don’t need to read it to know that this world is about to meet a serious upheaval.
Will the law be overturned? It will one way or the other. If not by man, then by God.
If that sounds like the stuff of fiction, well, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
Time will tell. If I’m wrong, you’ve lost nothing. I’ve lost nothing. But if I’m right, well, you’re in for a shock.
mk
You forget, MK, that the Hyde Amendment prevents your tax money from funding abortions. If you only have a problem with abortion, what’s so wrong with the use of the rest of your tax money?
Last year, Planned Parenthood showed revenue totaling nearly $810 million dollars. Of their $810 million in revenue, $265 million came from taxpayers in the form of government grants and contracts. In 2004 and 2005, Planned Parenthood received $551 million in governmental funding. This is money coming out of our tax dollars. Planned Parenthood uses our tax dollars to promote, advertise and market the benefits of abortion, including partial-birth abortion. Last year, Planned Parenthood performed almost 250,000 abortions, a number that has steadily increased since 1997. They also use tax dollars to fund explicit materials promoting abortion directed at teens. Over the past three years, Planned Parenthood has reportedly spent over $110 million of taxpayer money bringing lawsuits, challenging legislation and promoting their agenda.
What is outrageous in all of this is that Congress passed a law that bans partial-birth abortion, then your tax dollars provided Planned Parenthood the ability to sue Congress over the partial-birth abortion statute that they already passed. None of us want our tax dollars spent on this. Now is the time to take a stand against this horrible misuse of public funds and against Planned Parenthood. U.S. Senator David Vitter has proposed legislation that would stop the practice of taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood. Senate Bill 2206 states:
Hi SOMG,
don’t fret too much about His Man’s thought. He knows theology … the part in John’s Gospel that says God’s Word is Jesus. So go right ahead and question Him … I just can’t promise you that you’ll like or, that you will find His answer comfortable. Thomas (the sceptic) tried that once. Jesus asked him(Thomas) to put his finger into His(Jesus’ hands) and his hand into His side. Today we say (I guess) putting-your-foot-into-your-mouth. This was Thomas, are you this way too?
SOMG,
HisMan, you wrote: “Question everything. … Use God’s word as the standard for everything.”
Which of these two should she do? Should she question everything, or should she use God’s word as the standard for everything? She can’t do both, because questioning everything would include questioning God’s word and then how could she use it as a standard?
I mean, you can’t have it both ways.
Funny thing about the Truth (you can look this word up in the dictionary too…you’ll find it under the letter “T”)…You can ask questions and it doesn’t change thing. Truth is Truth.
You must be thinking of lies. Now there when you ask questions, the Truth finally comes out and you realize you were duped.
But you need not fear this with the Truth. You can feel safe using Truth as your standard because questioning it only reinforces it.
mk
Jen,
Rich WASPS who can afford private medical care.
I didn’t realize that there weren’t any rich black or hispanic people in this country.
MK
Actually, MK, I wanted my tax dollars spent on promoting PP’s agenda. Health of women is the first thing on the docket.
Seems like a pretty good use of money to me.
And yeah, please re-read my argument that your desire to strip PP of funding only doesn’t harm rich WASPS. It hurts BOTH pro life and pro choice women in the long run.
MG: I always mistrust Truth. It interferes with seeking truth.
MK
I’m not saying there aren’t. I am saying the are a disproportionate number of rich WASPS compared to rich “fill in the blank minority group”.
MG: I always mistrust Truth. It interferes with seeking truth.
Well now, there’s your problem. We have found Truth, while you’re still out there seeking truth.
If Truth is the finish line, guess who’s losin’ the race.
But small men are satisfied with small things. Even letters.
mk
SOMG,
One thing confuses me though.
We’ve got the narcissism.
We’ve got the delusions of grandeur.
We’ve got the lack of conscience.
We’ve got the above average intelligence.
Where’s the charm?
mk
Does Rep. Vitter’s bill include a tax increase to cover the cost of the extra full-term deliveries which would be caused by defunding PP?
Does it include a tax increase to cover the additional costs of STDs which would not be prevented or treated early if PP were defunded?
If not, then it’s not a real bill, and it would never survive PAGO budgeting.
That’s for trying to save my soul, HisMan, but I’m an atheist. I’ve question religion and found it not to be for me. I think it’s a load of junk. You people preach one thing and act a different way.
Let he with out sin be the first to condemn. Love thy enemy.
The majority of what I hear out of religious fanatics is hate and lies. God loves everyone, but not “fags” they go to Hell. Give me a break. Any God who would send a good half of my friends to hell just because of who they LOVE, is NOT the God for me.
Truth be told, I was sickened when I found out how Jesus died (this was way back when I was ten and going through a Jesus/God/Bible phase. It passed quickly).
This thing needs an edit button. It should be thanks not that’s.
“SamanthaT:
There you go again, sounding wise but with no wisdom when you stated: “Many illnesses are the results of environmental factors.”
No, all illness, sickness, and death are the result of sin. If you want to call sin the overriding environmental factor, then I would agree with your statement. However, the conclusion to your statement is that if environmental factors were ALL corrected or normalized there would be no disease and no one would ever die. Wrong, illness and sickness and death are spiritual problems manifesting themselves as physical problems. So-called “science” is beginning to make the connection or should I say catch up with what the Bible has said all along.
Satan came to kill, steal, and destroy, so please stop trying to deceive Danielle’s young impressionable mind by misleading her into your snare baited with smooth sounding words that appear to be wise.”
Well, first of all, if disease is the manifestation of sin, and sinners dont go to heaven unless they repent, how do you account for a Down syndrome fetus that is aborted at eleven weeks? Secondly, I said that many, not all, diseases are affected by environmental factors. Therefore your theory about normalizing environmental factors just got shot down the tubes, because like John are born with their diseases. People like you who stick your head in the sand are the reason people like Danielle who need help and can benefit from a therapy regimen that includes both medication and some sort of healing dont seek help. Instead they just suffer silently, believing that they deserve the pain they are in, destroying their own lives and often those closest to them. God gave you a brain; use it.
To everyone:
I know that I have been goin’ at SOMG pretty hard, but he can take it. It may not seem very Christian; I realize this.
But I honestly believe that even tho we appear to be fighting, even SOMG would admit that this is just good old fashioned bantering. He isn’t taking anything I say seriously and I couldn’t possibly take anything he says seriously.
I’m just havin’ fun. I realize that if I said half the things to you guys that I say to him it would count as cruelty.
SOMG,
If you tell me to back off, in all seriousness, I will.
Just say the word. Because even sociopaths have feelings…gotcha…:)
mk
Jen,
have you ever been in a car-crash. I’ll tell you how to avoid ever being in one – don’t ever get into a car. The only way to ever be in one (and you have little control over how badly you will be hurt if you do).
In a similar fashion becoming pregnant is a consequence of sex. A woman may relinquish full control (but both people involved still bear full responsibility) when two people have sex. [Occasionally an unwanted consequence results in her becoming pregnant. Only confirmed long after intercourse … sometimes more than a month.]
So abortion is a second consequence. Its not like a return to virgin-status; it’s more like: “I’m gonna have a train-wreck to undo my car-wreck!” Does abortion make sense?
His Man, I would like to point out how disturbing it is that you claim to “love” everyone who posts on this board, and yet you ignore Danielle’s repeated statement that she suffers from depression and instead reply to Bethany’s one comment on her own depression with a prayer. Odd, isnt it, how you can pray publicly for a person who shares the same political opinion and yet completely ignore another with a different view, while representing yourself as a less-than-hypocritical Christian? Methinks someone with the “mind of Christ” would pray for everyone.
Hisman said:
“No, all illness, sickness, and death are the result of sin. If you want to call sin the overriding environmental factor, then I would agree with your statement. However, the conclusion to your statement is that if environmental factors were ALL corrected or normalized there would be no disease and no one would ever die. Wrong, illness and sickness and death are spiritual problems manifesting themselves as physical problems. So-called “science” is beginning to make the connection or should I say catch up with what the Bible has said all along.”
I would very much disagree with that statement. I think that God has helped doctors to make scientific advances to help treat illnesses, but physical illnesses have physical causes. I don’t think my devoutly religious mother’s stage four breast cancer is a result of sin. You have never met a more generous woman, who prays always, never loses hope in God, despite that fact that she has terminal cancer and her husband, my father, died of cancer four years ago. Even in her weakened state, she still volunteers for our family committee at church and helps with our local Girl Scout Organization. Our entire congregation prays for her, as well as her being on prayer lists at many congregations around town, because she has touched so many lives. I really would love for you to tell me that she has cancer because of sin, and that chemotherapy does nothing. Without chemotherapy and doctors, my mom would have probably died when I was nine. With them, she’s been able to live at least until I’m 20 and hopefully longer. I think you should consider exactly what you mean when you say that all illnesses are caused by sin. There are genetic factors behind illnesses. There are environmental factors behind illnesses. Not everything is because of a person’s sin. Unless you mean the fact that death entered the world when sin first entered into it, and thus all environmental factors and disease in the world are routed in that original sin. Otherwise, there are certainly earthly and non-spiritual causes for the illness and disease in this world.
Truth and Hope Report: John McCain: Bandwidth Thief
The McCain Campaign is caught stealing bandwidth from a MySpace template designer, Tom Vilsack gets a sweetheart deal from Hillary Clinton, San Francisco decides to bag it, why the pro-choice movement is really pro-abortion, the impact of parents and f…
Tonight’s Podcast: John McCain: Bandwidth Thief
The McCain Campaign is caught stealing bandwidth from a MySpace template designer, Tom Vilsack gets a sweetheart deal from Hillary Clinton, San Francisco decides to bag it, why the pro-choice movement is really pro-abortion, the impact of parents
MK
Padre Pio was aaaamazing. I had to FORCE myself to stop looking up info on him and start studying for a physics exam.
SOMG stands for Some Other Misleeding Garbage.
Samantha,
Okay, how about an appartion?
On April 2nd 1968 an hour and a half after sunset, the mechanics and drivers of the garage were all alarmed by some disturbance in the street. The workmen ran to the street. They saw a young lady dressed in white on the church dome. They saw her walking on the dome. They thought that she was about to throw herself down. So they cried: “Be careful. Take care, you may fall down, wait.” As the dome is curved, no human being can walk on it. Then some of the pedestrians who stood to watch the scene cried “Virgin Mary, Virgin Mary.”
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm
This appartion has been photographed and videotaped. As far as I know it is the only apparition that has.
It’s interesting to note that it was muslims who first saw her. Millions saw her by the time the apparition was finished. If you want even more info go here:
http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/zeitoun.htm
Did you also read about the appartitions in Rwanda that I posted? Those were scary. They foretold the genocide there. One of the visionaries, a young man, was not even christian. After he began seeing Our Lady and Jesus, he was able to quote scripture and explain doctrine without any former knowledge. Mary spoke of fire in the trees, and I remember when I heard that line in the movie “Hotel Rwanda” the hair on my arms stood up. Coincidence? Was the director of that movie aware of the apparitions. Or is this just more “proof” that something otherworldly went on there?
enjoy!
Next I’ll give you a Eucharistic Miracle.
mk
Samantha,
MK
Padre Pio was aaaamazing. I had to FORCE myself to stop looking up info on him and start studying for a physics exam.
Probably could have given your physics teacher a run for his money with this one…Time to play “Stump the teacher”.
MK
I don’t think this is ‘appalling’. That seems to be a libs favorite word.
I don’t think it is putting a cheap price on human life – I think it would just be creating another incentive. The biggest incentive of course being – you’re not MURDERING A CHILD.
And what are you libs doing whining about it demeaning human life?? You’re the pro-abortion group REMEMBER?!
Another thing.. there’s nothing the government can do to end poverty. Poverty is a condition of the mind and heart.
You can have just $5 in your hand and have all your needs taken care of and be a rich man.
You can also have 5 mil in a bank somewhere and still not be able to pay the bills and be a poor man.
Think about that one.
John,
That was completely unresponsive to anything I said.
Still, I would really love a pro-lifer to actually ANSWER what I write. Particularly the rights rhetoric argument. It may be on another post but it has still gone unanswered, for what, several weeks?
I think the post I will copy below is what you were referring to. Again, unresponsive, and again, the last sentence pretty much sums up why I am pro-choice.
**Actually, Jill, abortion is not my “solution to societies woes”. It’s my assertion that a woman should have autonomy over her own organs just like everyone else does. A man can deny bone marrow to someone who desperately needs it, so a woman should get to deny a womb to a fetus too.
My solution is to keep places like Planned Parenthood open who not only provide or help with a lot of the things you listed, but also acknowledge the autonomy and personhood of the woman in question.
I’m not going to cite Freakonomics and tell you abortion decreases crime. It probably does. But that is not why I am pro-choice.
I’m pro choice because I think women should have the same rights as everyone else. The choice to grant and deny access to their internal organs, regardless of the recipient.
“A man can deny bone marrow to someone who desperately needs it, so a woman should get to deny a womb to a fetus too.”
Jen, there is so much wrong with this statement on so many levels.
In this statement, you make it sound like as if women get pregnant by magic – that no outward, physical steps are taken to aid ‘a fetus entering a womb’ – A fetus simply sudden appears inside a woman.
If I remember correctly, it’s a certain act of intimacy that fertilizes an egg and then… hello fetus.
Ultimately, you are choosing to ‘invite’ a fetus into your womb.
You make it sound like a mother is a victim of a unborn baby invading her body!!! What rubbish.
Jen,
I think the problem is two-fold. Most of us on here have already gone through the “you’re an idiot and stupid and I’m right and you’re wrong and no one will listen to me cuz you’re all a bunch of jerks and pro-lifers are scum” thing…
We’re sort of past that and onto, “hey, I disagree and here’s why, let’s be respectful and try a novel idea called communication cuz after all we’re all adults here” thing.
It’s been workin’ out pretty well so far, and I quite honestly think that we just don’t want to go back to the two year olds way of fighting.
Second, we’ve also done the “I don’t have to donate my kidney to a two year old let him die not my problem” thing.
I guess we feel that if you want to hear those arguments you need to A: Ask in a civilized tone, or B: Do the legwork yourself and go back through all the posts yourself because we’ve moved on.
Hope this helps.
MK
HisMan said:
“No, all illness, sickness, and death are the result of sin. If you want to call sin the overriding environmental factor, then I would agree with your statement. (…)”
His Man, have you ever read about JOB? Have you understood the story of JOB? Did JOB sin? And how do you know God is not doing the same thing today to some of the people who fall ill? Again. You give me the feeling you are not a Believer, but you simply use the Bible to acknowledge your narrow and bitter views. I shall pray for you to lose the anger in your heart that speaks from so many of your posts.
Ryan
And yes, women can be the victim of an ‘invading’ fetus if you want to put it like that. Using birth control or being raped is certainly not an invitation.
And since when do we not allow people to fix the consequences of their mistakes? Should a smoker not undergo chemo? Should someone who was speeding on the highway not be pulled out of his car wreck? Should someone who became obese through over-eating be denied health care? Right.
Only women who have sex should not be allowed to choose the treatment they would find best for them. Women having sex should bear the consequences. This implies you want the government to punish people for having sex?
MK,
How was I uncivilized? There are quite a few people here that not only promise damnation, but resort to name calling as well.
I’m just tired of being calm. I’m allowed to be just as riled up as any pro-lifer is allowed to be. I have never cursed, called someone a name, or been rude. Remember our respectful discussion about the church? Yeah, that was me then too.
I can be respectful. I cannot tolerate misogyny, nor claims that spousal abuse could be understood in some “context”.
Clearly this is not the place for me to have a healthy discussion. But, I like doing it. I’ve debated competitively for almost 6 years now, and since debate tournament season is over, I still feel the need to challenge both others and my own ideas.
I can’t find anything immature about that.
Joe,I just want to ask you a question.I know that you agree with abortion,but how many abortions do you feel would be too many? What if a woman told you that she’d had 13 abortions.Would that be okay with you,or would you react with shock?Pregnancy is a consequence of unprotected sex.I also want you to know that I’m not a man basher.I love men!I also know many men that have lost their children to abortion.They are devestated!
Hi Jen and Joe -MAR28/3:23 …
The argument about the presence of a fetus … uninvited and therefore, in-line for death (even though fully alive and human …. had been articulated by Diana last week and she found all kinds of ways to find any counter pro-life argument spurious.
Had to think some more (from the Mr 27/9:58 post) and here’s what I think now. A few decades back Canada went through spasms to repatriate our constitution. It has like the US-Constitution a set of rights, but unlike yours we also have a set of responsibilities to temper these rights. Historically, this ‘tempering’ was done via religious observance. However, in modern times this is no longer the case. Hence …. rights can = whims if enough people and the media favour it.
I will now repeat my earlier post … eliminate the concept of legal-responsibility and you can note that what I say is just-one-more-option in Choice. …….. “have you ever been in a car-crash? I’ll tell you how to avoid ever being in one – don’t ever get into a car. The only way to ever be in one (and you have little control over how badly you will be hurt if you do).
In a similar fashion becoming pregnant is a consequence of sex. A woman may relinquish full control (but both people involved still bear full responsibility) when two people have sex. [Occasionally an unwanted consequence results in her becoming pregnant. Only confirmed long after intercourse … sometimes more than a month.]
So abortion is a second consequence. Its not like a return to virgin-status; it’s more like: ‘I’m gonna have a train-wreck to undo my car-wreck!’ Does abortion make sense?”
The notion also talks about the type-of-repair that abortion ensues, Joe. So it is not a trivial repairing of consequences. Abortion does not repair it ends life. Abortion is not a gift … as in ‘have an abortion’ but ensures that a human dies. Also note that there are no responsibilities … only rights. Is this not a whim masquerading as a right?
MK, return to the comment-posts with the picture of sheep to find a link for my invention.
still feel the need to challenge both others and my own ideas.
I can’t find anything immature about that.
Neither can I…I actually commend you for challenging ideas, especially your own (not you personally, I mean everyone should challenge themselves).
And as I reread your posts, you’re right, you weren’t all that argumentative…I think I was just revved up from all that SOMG banter that was goin’ on.
Ask your question again fresh, because I think sometimes questions get overlooked when they’re asked at a time that everyone is on at once.
Sorry I snapped at ya. A lot of times it feels like I’m drowning when everyone is on at once and I’m getting stuff from all directions.
Peace?
MK
momof3,
I know your question was directed at Joe, but I had a discussion online last week with a girl whose mother had 9 abortions before conceiving the girl and then her sister.
Yes,Samantha.I know 2 women that have her beat.9 or 10 for 1[she lost count,she says]12 for the other.Wouldn’t ANY woman be concerned for her internal organs? It isn’t like they are aborting once.I mean after the 4th or 5th time wouldn’t most women say “Hey,take my uterus out” How do you feel about this? Don’t you feel that a line should be drawn somewhere?
Joe
Rape – part of the tragedy of rape is that a human life is created by terrible means. When a woman carrying a child brought about by rape aborts the child – There are now 2 victims of rape.
Birth Control – as far as I know, there isn’t a form of birth control out there that is 100% effective. I think it’s pretty obvious that there is STILL RISK involved. Birth Control can fail.
If a woman becomes pregnant, ultimately, the child is now the responsibility of that woman and, hopefully, father. (or I should say, not-dead-beat father)
Sure, I want women to be able to fix there mistakes.. that’s what adoption is for. Abortion is just adding another mistake to the list.
Ryan,I was watching a video that several women put together. They had all had abortions.In the video they all collectively stated “Abortion didn’t solve our problems,it created new ones”
Samantha,
I know your question was directed at Joe, but I had a discussion online last week with a girl whose mother had 9 abortions before conceiving the girl and then her sister.
While I’m not trying to restart that argument, this is one reason why some of us use the term “pro-abortion” instead of pro-choice.
Many women have “multiple” abortions, and use it as a form of birth control. Leading to the notion that they are not for choice, but for abortion. Maybe we should change the term from pro-choice or pro-abortion to pro-irresponsibility?
MK
So many confused pro-death bloggers…so little time.
momof3, yes I do resent women’s abusing this choice. I feel that women who use this as a form of birth control are abusing the system. Having 9 or 10 abortions is incomprehensible to me. While I support a woman’s right to choose what is best for her, I would hope that she would be able to resolve the situation that led to her unwanted pregnancy before she ended up with a second one.
Regarding the abortion debate as a whole, I have just one final question:
WHY IS ADOPTION NOT GOOD ENOUGH!?!?!
Why do unwanted children HAVE to be ABORTED!?!
LIFE IS PRECIOUS!!!!!!!!
MK I dont know ANY pro-choice advocates who encourage this type of excessive use of the procedure. I guess if you’re going to pick a side, you have to understand that there will be exceptions to the rule either way. I certainly dont feel that the women with whom I have spoken about abortion would seek to undergo the procedure a second time without extenuating circumstances.
The apparition link was fabulous! Teach me more!
“In this statement, you make it sound like as if women get pregnant by magic – that no outward, physical steps are taken to aid ‘a fetus entering a womb’ – A fetus simply sudden appears inside a woman.”
That sounds an awful lot like Jesus. FTW!
MK,
“Many women have “multiple” abortions, and use it as a form of birth control.”
I do NOT support that at all. I personally think that having 2 abortions is pushing it. If you’ve had one abortion you should learn from your mistake and take extra precautions to make sure that you don’t become pregnant again.
I don’t know of any pro-choicers that support abortion as a form of birth control. All of the ones that I know talk about trying to limit the need for abortions through education. And woman who have more than one are clearly very much in need of it.
And I don’t see why a woman would want to put herself through that multiple times. I’ve heard that abortion doesn’t tickle (as some tshirts/bumperstickers say), but hurts like hell.
On the topic of abortion as birth control did you know that it’s speculated that Marylin Monroe had about 16 abortions? Someone in my psychology class shared that during a presentation.
A quote: “I do NOT support that at all. I personally think that having 2 abortions is pushing it. If you’ve had one abortion you should learn from your mistake and take extra precautions to make sure that you don’t become pregnant again.”
Now, let’s substiture the word MURDER for the word abortion and see just how absurd this quote is: I do NOT support that at all. I personally think that having 2 MURDERs is pushing it. If you’ve had one MURDER you should learn from your mistake and take extra precautions to make sure that you don’t become pregnant again.
This debate about abortion is absolutely INSANE.
Danielle and Alyssa,
you both seem to make some comparisons to the pregnancy experiences of your mothers and falsely assume this is genetic-unchangeable,
almost all (and I mean ALL) problems with pregnancy whether fetal development or maternal-related (like mood swings or morning sickness, etc.) are the result of nutrient density deficiencies (eg, mineral inadequacy). So meeting nutrition requirement will eliminate most every bad part of pregnancy. I will supply you with a list of such nutrients: zinc, taurine (amino acid); chlorella; Maerl – http://www.4yourtype.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NP052;
Neuromins; bone-broth; flax tea … Sure hopes this helps and relieves some anxiety.
Samantha and Danielle,
Of the abortions reported in 1999 to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), 26.2% of women who aborted had experienced one previous abortion; 11.2% had two previous abortions, and 7.5% had three or more previous abortions. The situation may be even worse than this, because the reports that states make to the CDC are voluntary, and the largest abortion state, California, does not report. Forty-six states do report, and this led to a total count of 861,789 legal induced abortions in 1999. That means that in one year, by the most conservative data available, 64,634 abortions were performed on women who had had three or more previous abortions.
Apparently a lot of women don’t see it the way you do.
I wish it were true that the occasional women had an abortion and only one, but as you can 1/2 of all women that go into an abortion clinic are going in for the second time.
mk
Okay Samantha,
First some background:
In the Catholic church (as far as I know, only the Catholic church) believes that at the consecration (the right performed at a mass prior to communion) a priest, by virtue of the powers invested in him at ordination (the sacrament of taking holy vows to become a priest)changes ordinary bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.
We believe that at that moment we are transported back in time and take part in the crucifixion as it is happening…
Every object has two forms. The accident and the substance. A piece of white bread is white in color and soft in texture. This is called the accident. The outward appearance.
It is made of flour, water, sugar, and butter. This is it’s substance.
If you put this piece of bread in the toaster and toast it, the outside (accident) will change and it will no longer be soft and white.
But the substance remains unchanged. So the accident changes, the substance remains the same.
In the act of consecration, we (Catholics) believe that the accidents (appearance) of bread and wine remains the same, while the substance changes and becomes something else. The body and blood of Jesus. Still looks like bread and wine, but it no longer is bread and wine.
Other churches, like the Lutheran church, believe in something called consubstantiation. They believe that the accident and substance remain the same but that Jesus exists in addition to the bread and wine. After communion, He leaves. This is why they can throw their communion wafers away when they are done with them.
In our church, once it has become body and blood it must be eaten, drunk or placed in a tabernacle under lock and key. (The tabernacle in the old testament held the word of God, or the torah and ten commandments. Our tabernacle holds the word made flesh.
Most protestant churches believe that the bread and wine are mere symbols, a meal to be shared with the “community” and can therefore be walnut bread and grape juice.
In the Catholic church it must be unleavened bread and wine mixed with water.
Now we know that an enemy will strike at the heart of his foe. And we know that the “heart” of the Catholic church is the Eucharist (the bread after it has been changed). This is why the Eucharist is attacked. Stolen or desecrated by those who hate the church. Or in the case of protestant churches “watered down” to become merely a symbol. Strike the Eucharist and you strike the very center of our faith. (No offense to protestants, I just need to set the stage here).
Throughout history, there have been times when a communion host has actually begun to bleed. These hosts are then scientifically examined. The blood type always comes back AB, and often the host is found to have turned to human flesh, most often, part of a heart.
Many of these hosts can still be seen today. They do not disintegrate as a normal host would.
Go to these links to see stories and pictures:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
http://biblia.com/jesusart/eucharistic.htm
Notice that some of these miracles have happened as recently as 1993.
enjoy!
mk
Samantha,
You might also enjoy this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cbGCQyP_uk
mk
John, I know that a lot of pregnancy problems can be alleviated with specific nutrients, that’s not the issue. My mom took as many vitamins as she could, but her body wouldn’t absorb them (as in she threw up anything she put into her body…the only thing she could digest was empty carbs). I’m not worried for myself, I can handle any pain you throw at me. Lord knows I’ve been through a lot…even though I know my pain has NOTHING on pregnancy. Even if I face the same problems my mom faced during her pregnancies…it will be my CHOICE. Her labor with me was horrendous, too. I won’t go into details…it was rather grotesque. I can NEVER IMAGINE FORCING A WOMAN TO GO THROUGH WHAT MY MOM DID AGAINST HER WILL.
I just object to forcing a woman to endure suffering and sacrifice. Like many of you raised the point…Jesus chose to sacrifice himself, as did Mary choose to do God’s bidding. Why would any of you, who are not God, want to take away the choice to be without suffering for other women?
Ironically, my mom is an amazing woman who raised me well. Funnily enough…I don’t think she’s evil because she’s pro-choice too. Fancy that.
MK, I really enjoy your links. Fascinating. :)
MomOf3
You actually don’t know much about my personal view on abortion, but the fact that I resent the implications of making it illegal I guess makes me an ardent pro-choicer in your view.
A woman having multiple abortions for me is beyond comprehension, and I think she will have a lot of explaning to do when she faces her Creator. But maybe the fact He didn’t give her enough brain mass to create space for something like a moral understanding is an excuse for her.
Ryan,
adoption is NOT a on option to fix a mistake if your mistake is pregnancy. To end a pregancy you have to have an abortion, that avoids you having to be pregnant and becoming a mother. I don;t understand why the difference is so hard to get. It’s like me saying ok I pull you out of the car wreck but I think you can walk to the hospital yourself. You want to punish the act of sex by your logic, which is why I resent your way of arguing.
If your cause is about life, then the way a woman fell pregnant should not have anything to do with the matter of abortion. Making exceptions for rape is very inconsistent. Many anti-abortionists simply resent the fact that women have sex, that they enjoy it, and that they are stupid about it. I resent the last part as well. But Ryan think about your life and about how many times you and people close to you have been stupid and have been allowed to deal with the consequences your way.
HisMan
it is funny how you ignored my remark about Job. Did you realize you dug yourself into a hole there?
Danielle,I did read Marylin Monroe’s book.I did read that she had 3 abortions.Lots of the Hollywood stars did.Judy Garland and Lana Turner had them too.I wonder who performed their abortions back then when it was illegal.
John,
Uhh… I didn’t say anything about my mom’s pregnancy. I don’t think. If I did, please show me where.
I don’t know of any complications that my mom had during pregnancy besides her hips being to small and needing four C-sections. And I’m pretty sure I haven’t said anything about that here.
Alyssa,no middle name yet.
Yeah, Danielle…I didn’t recall you ever making a statement about your mother. I wonder why he directed the comment at you, too?
John, I mean no disrespect, but to be quite honest, as a man you’ve never had to go through pregnancy. And while you can say that “all these problems can be alleviated with so and so”, the fact remains that you’ve never been there to really know what it’s like, and you never will be. I was actually rather offended that you would try to make pregnancy sound so “hunky-dory” when I’m the only one out of either of us two that may one day be pregnant. I’m sorry, but you have no room to comment about the process of pregnancy itself, because you will never endure it.
“Mom of 3” You wrote: “.I wonder who performed their abortions back then when it was illegal.”
You should also wonder: who would perform abortions if abortion were made illegal again in the USA?
And if you think the answer is “no one”, you’re wrong.
Alyssa,
I’m getting a wee bit ticked at your continuous gripe about how difficult it’ll be when you get pregnant … you specify so much bs, it’s hard to know where to start … the list I gave you took me some 3 decades to assemble. Some of the suggestions are gleened from experienced biochemical reseaarchers (but most are from women who have benefitted from them during their pregnancies) and no you do not deserve stats … but if you wish to dismiss this like some snot-nosed kid – it’s your choice.
Danielle didn’t say zip about her Mom’s pregnancies but did she say quite a bit about her Mom’s personality and her own depression … even though Danielle does not recognize it, these are linked … likely through a zinc deficiency.
And, Alyssa don’t try to pull the bull on me … believe me I know more about put-downs than you could imagine! I tried to give you another way to view your massive myopic personality, but you seem to glory in stupidity. Taking a fistful of vitamins doesn’t do squat unless you happen to need one of them. A penchant for carbs is a major sign for candida overgrowth … and from your accusatory streak, I’d surmise that it was (and is) prevelant in you also. Tell me Alyssa, what is it like to harbour in your organs (right now) a fungal-parasite and defend it … not abort it; D-E-F-E-N-D it, eh?
SOMG,I’m sure that back then celebrities were able to go to a hospital to have an abortion done.MM didn’t go to the back alley.Once again,it came down to $$.After all isn’t that what the ab industry is all about?
John,
Is something wrong? I’m being sincere. I’ve never seen you lose your temper before and I’m just wondering if everything is okay?
Can I help?
MK
John,
Please explain to me how my mother’s pregnancies has anything to do with my depression? My mom treats my other three siblings wonderfully. They’re spoiled beyond belief and part of a very close knit family.
And thank you very much for telling me something that I’m already trying to take care of. I’m taking mulitivitamins (at the suggestion of my DOCTOR). You’re the know all on my condition now?
I agree with Alyssa, kind of, a man will never get pregnant. He will never know what it’s like to go through the pregnancy process. He can read about it all he wants, talk to woman about it, but he will never have actually experienced it.
Does this mean that they can’t be great support for woman who are pregnant, of course not! But they will never expierence the wonder or trama that a pregnancy can create.
I’m not saying that all pregnancy expierences are horrible. But I think that a forced pregnancy would be a horrible expierence and definitely not good for fetal development.
Of course I can already here the pro-life solution, “then she shouldn’t have sex!!!” And fine, go ahead, criminalize sex. It’s not going to make people stop having it.
From what I’ve heard, pregnancy is no walk in the park. Stories that I’ve heard from women who have had children make me NEVER want to have kids sometimes. But there’s a difference between wanting to expierence a pregnany and being forced.
Does that make anymore sense?
“mom of 3”: It’s what ALL industries are all about. Welcome to the world.
Once again, we fight for abortion rights because forcing a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to carry it to term and endure L&D is an unacceptable violation of her personal freedom, but we WIN because abortion is so much cheaper than full-term pregnancy.
Including, BTW, the right-to-life industry.
Anyone know how much $$ Bernard Nathanson made from his books?
How about Norma McCorvey’s $$ on the RTL speaker’s circuit?
Wow, John. I’m sorry I offended you. And how is my view myopic? I already said that it didn’t matter to me about pain or suffering or even if my future pregnancies would be difficult (again, you’re putting words in my mouth…I speak only from knowing what my mom went through…there’s no way to even think about that as a prediction for me)…therefore I don’t view this issue as about “me me me”. I view it as an issue regarding other women and my fear that their bodily rights and the rights to choose to suffer or not suffer will be taken away. I worry that another woman will be forced to endure and suffer through a pregnancy that she doesn’t want. Is that myopic? Or am I thinking of just myself, and being snotty and worrying about my own lot in life? No. I am shocked that you read only to find fault with me and resort to thinking that I’m selfish. I wouldn’t be on this blog, fighting for women’s rights, if I was selfish. That is demeaning for you to ever insinuate. I find fault with a system that forces people to sacrifice bodily autonomy to another being. I also find fault with the way you addressed me, considering I didn’t “put you down” at all…I was just insulted that you’d ever say “all of pregnancy’s woes can be treated with so-and-so”. Pregnancy is not just a walk in the park for some people. I NEVER meant to insult you, in fact…I’m sure people would agree that I was very civil in my last post, and I made it politely clear that I was offended. I didn’t resort to putting you down, I just elaborated on how and why I felt such a way.
You seem to think that my mom just haphazardly took vitamins during her pregnancy, any old vitamins and nutrients…which is wrong…she worked in conjunction with prenatal nutritionists who tested her to see what she was missing…and I assure you, if it was a zinc deficiency, they were trying to get her to take as much zinc as she needed. The point is, she couldn’t digest them.
And your comment about the carbs thing is also out of line. She craved other things, she just couldn’t digest them. She resorted to bread and pasta because they were the only things her body tolerated. So whatever parasite you’re talking about, it doesn’t really matter toward this conversation. And my accusatory tone is just as prevalent as my Candida growth…nonexistent. I don’t crave sugar or carbs. I’m what you would call somewhat of a health nut…while I may love spaghetti, it helps that my grandmother was full-blooded Italian and made it better than anyone else’s. I don’t crave it, I just like it. Other than that one carb-laden love of mine, your assumption that I seek out carbs due to a parasite is unfounded. Thank you again for once more making an undue accusation. (If you haven’t noticed, this might be the first cynical remark I’ve made…maybe your “snot-nosed kid” gripe is now warranted?)
By the way, John, I don’t want your stats. Just ask my mom to add to your stats if you want some more input from a woman who went through pregnancy under the guidance of prenatal nutritionists and doctors who attempted to make sure she got what she needed but weren’t able to work around her body’s inability to digest the needed nutrients.
*****
Lastly, John, I apologize. I never meant to hurt your feelings. It’s just that I felt you needed to know that mine were a bit bruised from your insinuations that “it’s easy to be a pregnant woman”, when I’ve known all my life that sometimes, even when you do all you can to make it as painless as possible, it just might not work out. I don’t wish to alienate you, considering you’re one of the most tactful debaters on here. I wish you peace and a truce. I apologize.
*Lyss*
I realize also that I might have made it sound like men were irrelevant when it comes to the pregnancy process. I never meant to make it sound like that…I agree with Danielle that they can ease the process with support and love and being able to provide those needed back rubs and foot rubs when it gets tough. I know I’d expect no less from the man I decide to have children with someday.
You’re a kind man, John…I don’t want to earn your ire.
Hi MK,
No, guess I’m not OK ….. years ago a good friend used to tell me some of the very outlandish things her daughter would say and do … just to get her Mom up-tight. Curious, I asked her how did she respond. “I go into my room and sob!”says my friend. “Next time, she tests you like that, shed your tears right in front of her.” says I.
Guess I wanted Alyssa to back-off and think (because she claims this as an aptitude) before mouthing off. And MK you can’t help … either Alyssa gets it or she doesn’t!
SOMG,Norma McCorvey[former Roe]wrote a letter to the Kansas House Resolution to assist in putting abortionist out of business.I just read this today.
Joe,
I’m well aware of Job’s story.
Job was a sinner, we all are and all fall short of God’s glory. The purpose of Job’s trials were not punishment, but rather part of a bigger purpose. Satan made a bet with God that Job would curse God.
In fact, Job stood up to both of his wife’s and so-called friends (symbols of the world) admonitons to just curse God and die.
The story of Job is primarily the revelation that there is a bigger battle around us between God and satan and that God is sovereign. Read the beginning, Read the end.
The story of Job is amazingly not so much about our faith in God but His faith in us because God knows that we are made in His image and have the potential for greatness. And don’t forget that Job was given everything back and more, hardly a punsihment for sin. I know this.
To imply that I don’t understand that there are other reasons for illness and sickness, is shortsighted. You’ve got to balance Job’s story with the other passages in the Bible that say, “the wages of sin is death”. If Jesus came to heal and save, that implies thre was a need for healing and salvation. Sin has consequences. And just look around. The effects of sin are everywhere to be seen in the world.
And Joe, you sound like some of Job’s friends accusing him of this and that and we know what God said to them, don’t we Joe?
Are you telling me Joe that if there were no sin we would still have sickness and disease because God is some sort of sick sadist?
No Joe, you’re the one who doesn’t understand. I know this because you are pro-abortion and that in itself indicates a total and colossal misconception of who God is. In fact, satan made a bet with God that you wouldn’t buy into the lie of abortion and hence curse God, the author and beginning of life. Who’s gonna win that bet Joe? Who’s gonna get your soul?
The “Choice” is yours man.
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