What’s wrong with this sign?
As reported by The Morning News March 26, the abortion industry is fighting an Arkansas bill that would force mills to post the above sign. Said Planned Parenthood attorney Bettina Brownstein, “This will have a chilling effect, obviously, on abortion providers, and that will be another ground to challenge this bill, if it becomes law, in a court of law”….
Yes, I agree the sign would have a chilling effect on the cozy relationship between abortionists, child predators, and abusive boyfriends. Testified one woman:
“When they asked if I wanted counseling, the question was directed to me, but my boyfriend answered ‘No,’ and they immediately dismissed me. They did not care what I wanted or what I felt,” she said….
[She] said she had a hysterectomy three years later and will never bear a child.
There was also the interesting complaint by one pharmacist that “the bill might be interpreted to apply to pharmacies that dispense morning-after pills or intrauterine devices.”
That pharmacist, Percy Malone, is not coincidentally a Democrat state senator who frequently does the abortion lobby’s bidding.
Nevertheless, the only conclusion to reach upon reading that statement is that MAPs and IUDs cause abortions.
The bill did not pass in committee, but its author thinks it will after she makes a couple changes.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Well I for one have no problem with this sign.
But this is the sort of law which might lend itself to abuse.
For instance, what if the agency responsible for printing the signs suddenly runs out of signs? Would the abortion clinics then be closed down or penalized because of the supplier’s failure to supply the required sign?
You don’t see how wrong this would be? Actually letting a woman know that she has a Choice in this decision?
This is just more proof that the abortion industry (NOT the Pro-Choice groups) doesn’t care about the woman. They only want the money.
I can;t see what’s wrong with it, either.
Maybe it could be abused. Maybe some women regretting their abortion turn around and start making accusations or sue people even though their decision was freely made. Could the sign the be used to hold the doctor accountable? I am not very good a law.
That would be great if women could go back and sue an abortion clinic. I know of many that wish they could do so over the emotional distress their abortions caused them.
I’ve got the name of a lawyer that will do it too.
mk
“Nevertheless, the only conclusion to reach upon reading that statement is that MAPs and IUDs cause abortions.”
Assuming that MAPs and IUDs do prevent implantation, that’s what they do–they prevent the blastocyst from fusing to the uterine wall. A pregnancy doesn’t begin until implantation; that’s why the 2/3 of fertilization events that occur are flushed out of the body without the woman’s noticing. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Abortion is not the prevention of implantation.
Samantha, 7:22p: Hm… then I wonder why a pro-abortion pharmacist would fear the legislation? Maybe you’d better give him a call and straighten him out.
So I guess by your definition, an ectopic pregnancy is actually an ectopic blob of tissue invasion?
And if a woman is pregnant only if a baby is inside and attached to her uterus, doesn’t that make partial birth abortion illegal? I certainly wish you’d shared this information with the Supreme Court a few years back.
http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html
Jill, I’m disappointed.
You were a registered nurse, correct? Then you would know the term “partial birth abortion” was coined by some pro-life politician, not a scientist and is not the scientific or even accurate term used and approved by the AMA.
The phrase you are looking for is “Intact Dilation and Extraction”.
It’s not like I’m so scared or disgusted by the term. I just think that if we try to use scientifically accurate arguments for each side, we should stick with scientifically accurate terminology.
Jill, you wrote: “A pregnancy doesn’t begin until implantation; that’s why the 2/3 of fertilization events that occur are flushed out of the body without the woman’s noticing. ”
It’s a mistake to imagine that the pregnancy is safe once implantation occurs. A significant proportion of ALREADY IMPLANTED pregnancies also die and flush out of the body without the woman noticing. Early miscarriage–you get a slightly heavier menses and Junior ends up stuck to a tampon.
We can’t even measure how frequent early miscarriage of already-implanted pregnancy is because it’s usually subclinical. But it’s very common. You can estimate a lower boundary for how common it is by looking at the clinical ones–the miscarriages where the woman does notice and phones in. It happens all the time!
And the number one institution to which women turn for care when they are experiencing miscarriage in the USA? You guessed it: Planned Parenthood.
Jen, I’m disappointed, too, on two counts. That must make me double disappointed.
I’m disappointed you are avoiding a response to my great points, and I’m disappointed your attempt to avoid my great points is so weak. In fact, it is wrong!
So let’s be disappointed together. But wait! You have no need to be disappointed! Only I do! I feel so alone!
In fact, the AMA recognizes the term “partial birth abortion. I sadly direct you here: http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/categorized_articles/abortion/
ama_and_pba/ama_and_pba.htm.
And I sadly direct you to Merriam Webster’s Medical Dictionary to read a definition of partial-birth abortion: http://www.intelihealth.com/cgi-bin/dictionary.cgi?book=Medical&adv=0&cgi=1&t=9276&p=%7Ebr%2CIHW%7C%7Est%2C9276%7C%7Er%2CWSIHW000%7C%7Eb%2C*%7C&WEB_HOME=%2FIH%2F&MIVAL=ihtIH&WEB_HOST=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.intelihealth.com&va=partial-birth+abortion
So now, if you’re truly not scared or disgusted by the term, may we proceed with the discussion?
SOMG, 9:23p: Sorry, it wasn’t me who made that assertion.
The following from a scientist registered with AMA:
Additional recommendations were also adopted. First, the AMA noted that because partial birth abortion is not a medical term, the AMA would not use it. Instead, the term intact dilatation and extraction (or intact D&X) should be used when referring to a specific procedure comprising the following elements: deliberate dilatation of the cervix, usually over a sequence of days; instrumental or manual conversion of the fetus to a footling breech; breech extraction of the body except the head; and partial evacuation of the intracranial contents of the living fetus to effect vaginal delivery of a dead but otherwise intact fetus. This procedure is distinct from D&E procedures, which are more commonly used to induce abortion after the first trimester.
It’s fine that we should limit ID and X. I mean, only 2% of abortions happen at this time, with the mother’s life/health as the main reason. I’m just saying there are more accurate terms out there, Jill.
Jen, my point was not to discuss how often PBAs are committed, or why.
My point was: If, as you say, pregnancy does not begin until implantation, then it must end at “unimplantation,” when the baby evacuates the uterus.
This would make partial birth abortion illegal, since in that case the baby has completely evacuated the uterus when the procedure is committed.
This would also make the term “ectopic pregnancy” incorrect, for which you should also alert the AMA, since you’re so concerned about proper medical terminology.
Jill,
I wanted to apologize for not being able to get that argument to you just yet. Aside from the hectic and time consuming day to day of grad school life, I’ve found that I can’t seem to get the argument (which will have to include supplementary that Dr. Thomson did not herself cover) to less than 5 pages. And I’m still trying to weed out all the philosophical jargon, which is proving to be difficult without seriously lengthening things. Nonetheless, I want to make the argument palatable to those who haven’t had lengthy philosophical training. This whole ivory tower thing bites. I’m still trying though; I’ll get it figured out.
While I’m here, though, a brief defense of Jen’s earlier point: you claimed that her definition of pregnancy would exclude ectopic pregnancies, but as far as I can tell, she didn’t say that implantation had to be on the uterine wall. She noted that IUDs, etc, prevent this, which they do, but from what I gather from her post, she merely takes pregnancy to begin at implantation (whether it’s in the uterus, fallopian tube or liver). Her definition, then, would not seem to exclude ectopic pregnancies since we could take attachment of the blastocyst to the fallopian tube to be an instance of implantation.
With regard to Intact D&X, if I’m recalling things correctly (which I may not be, I’m a philosopher, not an MD), the fetus is manipulated into a breech position, and then the body is extracted up to, but not including, the head, in order for the rest of the procedure to be performed. So if we’re being technical, then, the fetus has not “completely evacuated the uterus”.
I’m confused, though, I thought the term “partial birth abortion” was being used to cover all procedures done from the second trimester on, and not just Intact D&X. If that’s true, then it would certainly not be the case that the fetus would be completely evacuated.
Moreover, I’m curious, if pregnancy really is defined as you would seem to want to define it – as beginning at fertilization – then shouldn’t the answer of all sexually active women to that typical OB question “Have you ever been pregnant?” be “I’ve no clue”, since so many embryos are lost naturally before implantation? And what do we say about embryos that created for use in invitro but are not implanted, but are stored. Who’s pregnant there? The freezer tank? What about the woman who’s gone through in vitro? Is she pregnant the minute she walks out of the office? It seems like the medical establishment disagrees, since the procedure is only considered successful if one of the embryos implants.
Diana –
Just a few corrections.
In a Partial Birth Abortion (This may not be a medical term, but it is a legal term which is why it has been used in almost all legislation concerning this) “the rest of the procedure” as you put is eliminating the life of a child that is just moments away from being born. This child is no longer attached to the uterine wall, is no longer in the uterus. The child is in the birth canal.
Also, upon fertilization the entire genetic code is intact. Does this not mean that a life has begun? At that moment a women is carrying a ‘potential life’ and therefore would be pregnant. As for the question of the OB, when he/she asks if you’ve ever been pregnant and you answer “no” , this is the info he/she needs. The OB needs to know if you have ever had an abortion, a clinical miscarriage or a pregnancy to term. Based on the lay persons knowledge of medicine it would be completely irrational to spend the entire appointment explaining medical terminology.
Valerie,
As I said, I’m not an MD. Still, I’m aware of what the rest of the procedure entails. And I think (if you are correct about the fetus’ head being in the birth canal) that we may have found an interesting thought about defining pregnancy as beginning at implantation. Nonetheless, the point of the entire post (among other things) was that this seems to be the definition of pregnancy used by the medical establishment (aka, the scientific definition).
“As for the question of the OB, when he/she asks if you’ve ever been pregnant and you answer “no” , this is the info he/she needs. The OB needs to know if you have ever had an abortion, a clinical miscarriage or a pregnancy to term. Based on the lay persons knowledge of medicine it would be completely irrational to spend the entire appointment explaining medical terminology.”
I agree. That was probably a bad example. But what about my other questions? What about stored embryos? What about women who have gone through in vitro? Why is it that the medical establishment doesn’t take these women to be pregnant until implantation has occurred?
“Also, upon fertilization the entire genetic code is intact. Does this not mean that a life has begun? At that moment a women is carrying a ‘potential life’ and therefore would be pregnant.”
I’ve never denied that an embryo is living, in the same sense that all cells are living. But I’m not sure this is necessarily relevant to whether or not a woman is pregnant by medical/scientific standards. In any case, your argument is fallacious. By claiming that “carrying a potential life” = pregnancy, you seem to be assuming that “carrying” merely involves having an embyro floating around inside the womb, and not implantation. But this is just what the argument is about! That’s question begging. And if I were to accept your definition of “carrying a potential life” then I would have to say that that is not the proper definition of pregnancy, since frozen tanks carry lots of potential lives in that way, but they’re not pregnant, nor do I think the woman who walks out of the in vitro clinic is pregnant just after the procedure. The medical establishment, at least, takes it as an open question at that point as to whether or not she will become pregnant.
Diana –
Webmd definition of pregnancy – The state of a female after conception and until the termination of the gestation.
http://dictionary.webmd.com/terms/pregnancy
The free dictionary/medical dictionary definition of pregnancy – the condition of having a developing embryo or fetus in the body, after union of an oocyte and spermatozoon.preg
Momof3, MK,
Too bad if abortion causes some women emotional distress. Let’s just all sue our doctors when we experience symptoms we have known could occur.
If you have a boob job and it goes wrong, then you can sue. If you sign up for an abortion and it is completed, how can you sue?
Peopel in this country very often refuse to accept self-responsibility. Only here people can sue companies for not putting up warning signs of freshly brewed coffee possibly being hot.
Women suffering from distress after abortion should maybe seek responsibility in their own decision or blame it onto those who maybe forced them into it (partner, parents). Not on the doctor whose service they demanded.
The “free dictionary/medical dictionary definition of pregnancy – the condition of having a developing embryo or fetus in the body, after union of an oocyte and spermatozoon.preg
Joe,this is my point.[We spoke about irresponsibility on another post] My girlfriend had an abortion,and she shared the details of her experience with me.She explained to me that she went to the abortion clinic.A brief film was shown about what the procedure would entail.She filled out paper work. She went to the waiting room,where she waited for her procedure.Then came the operation itself[I’ll spare ya the details].Unfortunately,she ended up having another abortion 1 year after the first.[I call this a repeat offender]These abortions were both the end result of reckless one night stands.No rape,no incest,no condoms,no birth control.I wondered about her after this.She never really did accept any self responsibility.And who had to pay the price?The babies involved.Both guys were LOOONG gone.She had to ask her parents for the blood $.Oh,let me correct myself. The guys did give her a call.Each wanted to make sure that she’d gone through with the abortion.They also both wanted to know if she’d be interested in more sex.Does anyone sound responsible to you in this picture?She explained that the possibility of emotional distress was never mentioned.Now,she wishes she could sue.She said nobody ever told her about any other options,and now she wishes she had been told.I guess even the abortion clinic was also irreponsible.
Joe,
“If you have a boob job and it goes wrong, then you can sue.”
I just watched a show on TV about plastic surgery gone wrong… There was a girl that actually died from a botched procedure. And another one who’s nipple completely rotted off. Blah.
I still don’t get why people would want to do that. Not for me, not thanks. I can see why people would want to get a boob reduction (I’ve had a few friends do that), but it’s for medical reasons, i.e. back problems.
I couldn’t imagine getting surgery like that done. Ouch.
” The guys did give her a call.Each wanted to make sure that she’d gone through with the abortion.They also both wanted to know if she’d be interested in more sex.”
Blah. Nice guys she picked.
Ya Danielle, The guys and their buddies said the same of her.[imagine that!]
Momof3
I am genuinly sorry your friend could not learn from her mistakes, and also was not able to collect information after her first abortion about what her other options could have been. However, if she was depressed after her first abortion, why did she go for a second one? The first can;t have been that traumatic? Or would having the baby been even worse?
One would think that where people know about abortion clinics, orphanages are also know. One would also think that before I decide to terminate a life I would make sure no other option would work for me.
I agree that the doctor has a responsibility to tell every woman what the possible consequences of an abortion are. Everything else is careless and irresponsible. But my acquaintance who works in PP insists that PP lays out all the options.
Yep Danielle,
I don;t get plastic surgery in young healthy women, either.
Momof3,
I’m curious… Where did she get her abortion done?
In Ohio.
Sorry,Planned P-Hood in Ohio to be more specific
Samantha T –
“after union of an oocyte and spermatozoon.” Oocyte meaning female egg. Spermatozoon meaning male sperm.
Zygot – “the diploid cell resulting from union of a male and a female gamete. More precisely, the cell after synapsis at the completion of fertilization until first cleavage.zygot?ic”
So, after the union of the egg and sperm you have a zygote, hence pregnancy.
Don’t like that explanation. How about http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pregnancy
Pregnancy
“noun
the state of being pregnant; the period from conception to birth when a woman carries a developing fetus in her uterus”
Shall we continue?
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861737294
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0840046.html
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=pregnancy
http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=pregnancy&goquery=Find+it%21&Language=ENG
http://www.bartleby.com/65/pr/pregnanc.html
http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/wn?cmd=wn&word=pregnancy
http://lookwayup.com/lwu.exe/lwu/d?s=f&w=pregnancy
Do you need more?