New Stanek WND column: “Italian abortion mafia”

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One of the best scenes in the Godfather movie trilogy was in "Godfather II," when Kay Corleone (Diane Keaton) told her husband Michael (Al Pacino) she was taking their two children and leaving him. The dialogue:

Michael: Do you expect me to let you take my children from me?…. Don’t you know that’s an impossibility, that that could never happen, that I’d use all my power to keep something like that from ever happening?…. I know you blame me for losing the baby. Yes. I know what that meant to you. Kay. I swear I’ll make it up to you…. I’ll change. And you’ll forget about this miscarriage, and we’ll have another child, and we’ll go on, you and I, we’ll go on.
kay.jpgKay: Oh – oh, Michael, Michael, you are blind. It wasn’t a miscarriage. It was an abortion, an abortion, Michael! Just like our marriage is an abortion, something that’s unholy and evil. I didn’t want your son, Michael! I wouldn’t bring another one of your sons into this world! It was an abortion, Michael. It was a son, a son, and I had it killed, because this must all end. I know now that it’s over. I knew it then. There would be no way, Michael, no way you could ever forgive me, not with this Sicilian thing that’s been going on for 2,000 years….

SLAP.

Michael: You won’t take my family!

And she doesn’t.

That spontaneous slap was the reaction of a real man who a woman had just told she aborted his baby. Compare that to the modern day cowardly male response, "It’s your choice. Whatever you decide, I’ll support you." Or worse, his threat to abandon her if she does not abort.

It was this fierce devotion to family that strangely endeared us to the Corleone men despite their otherwise heinous behavior.

In fact, Mafiosos aside, the Italian culture has always evoked thoughts of large, loving families.

No longer. Legalized abortion has poisoned Italy.

According to several foreign or Christian news reports like this one in SperoNews.com:

A 13-year-old girl is in the psychiatric unit of an Italian hospital after a forced abortion….

Continue reading my WorldNetDaily.com column today, "Italian abortion mafia."

74 thoughts on “New Stanek WND column: “Italian abortion mafia””


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    W. G. says:

    I appreciate what you do, and your voice against evil. But I suggest that your opening illustration does not sit well in making your point. The reader is forced to side with the mafioso in hating abortion.


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    Jill Stanek says:

    The point is, even the evil mafia hates abortion.


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    Janet says:

    I appreciate very much your devotion to the prolife cause. I do wish you’d chosen a better vehicle than this one to make your point, which is a good one.
    Men who slap women are cowards whether or not it’s “spontaneous.” It’s hard to think that a man devoted to his family, which includes his wife, shows it by physical violence, or by having his own brother murdered. A lot of us aren’t endeared to the Corleone men for any reason.


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    Jill Stanek says:

    I appreciate your thought and respectfully disagree. If a man has just been told a woman has killed his child, I do not fault him for responding with a slap. I can’t think of anything that would more qualify for righteous indignation.


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    Jerry says:

    Great lead up to a pointed article.
    I had just finished Mark Steyn’s book America Alone and so the data didn’t surprise me


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    Josh says:

    Great article, Jill! I loved how you used that scene from The Godfather to create interest and an emotional response that encourages readers to finish reading the article. Keep up the good work!


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    Helene says:

    Keep telling them. The power to overturn this evil lies in the hands of the women’s story. It’s how Jesus wants his victory to be won, through His loving and complete mercy!


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    Valerie M. says:

    I am one of your admirers in the pro-life movement. I am a dedicated volunteer at our local crisis pregnancy center, and I am head of the Respect Life Ministry at my parish. I am also Italian, specifically, I am Sicilian.
    In your column today, I found your title, “Italian Abortion Mafia,” to be highly offensive. Your title seemed to imply that the mafia has something to do with the abortion laws in Italy, but nowhere in your article did you make that case. Also, your example of a fictional wife-beating, murdering mafia don as somehow being representative of an Italian “culture of life” was outrageous.
    I, too, am shocked and dismayed at what has occurred in Italy regarding abortion, contraception, and a general movement away from the teachings of the Church, but to characterize the abortion laws in Italy as somehow being connected to the mafia will only continue to stigmatize my Sicilian ancestors and relatives whom I love dearly. Unfortunately, the Culture of Death that has overtaken Italy is the same one that has infected the rest of Europe and the United States. It has NOTHING to do with the mafia.
    I hope that you will consider printing an apology to all life-loving people of Italian and Sicilian heritage. Believe it or not, Ms. Stanek, we are not all in the mafia.
    Sincerely,
    Granddaughter of Rosario and Maria V. from San Giuseppe Jato, Sicily


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    Philip says:

    For me personally, your recent article on Italy’s forced abortion law hit home. Simply, it is an evil, satanic law that needs to be repealed along with all and any other worldwide laws that either allow or promote abortion of any kind.
    While I am not or ever have been in the Mafia, I am 100% Sicilian and 100% pro-family. In fact, my dad was born in Palermo, Sicily and my mom in Agrigento. If my daughter ever got pregnant, she would have the baby and, if the male did not step up to the plate to support her and the new human being, I would. Of course, the offending party would answer to me as well.
    I don’t think the Michael Corleone devotion to family is a Mafia thing, however, I do believe it’s a Sicilian thing. In the book of Acts where Paul was bit by a poisonous viper on the Island of Malta where they had shipwrecked, comments are made about how hospitable the people were, even back then. So I think the family connection in Malta/Sicily is a historical fact. I too am totally devoted to my family, as was my father and mother. Their grandchildren and my kids are proof of that. The “black hand” had its roots in Sicily where families were forced to pay for protection against criminals to private individuals because the government structure had failed to do so. Of course, while the original intent was good it evolved into this evil now called the Mafia.
    Isn’t it ironic that when the government fails to do the right thing great evil results? In the case of abortion, the US government passed Roe v. Wade, and our society has murdered nearly 50,000,000 innocent children since. Shame on those Christians who fail to see the connection and as a result allow the dark side to thrive unchallenged. The Lord is not happy with their failure to be salt and light.
    Back to your statement about Michael Corleone being a real man. Well, in the sense that he understood the sanctity of family he was, on the other hand, he was intensely evil. His wife, in playing God and murdering their child as an act of justification, was no better. How did she know that that child wouldn’t have been a force for good? Point is, in her arrogance and ignorance, she didn’t know but acted as if she did know. She acted as a god in her self-worship.
    However, I blame almost the entire abortion era on males. Males allowed Roe V. Wade to become law. Males get women pregnant and then abandon them forcing them into a corner where abortion looks like an easy way out. I can’t think of a more cowardly act for a male to not act like a man and support a women and their child. The Lord thinks the same way when He says that a man that does not support his family is worse than a non-believer.
    To the extent that males have abandoned their God-given mandate to be loving, bold, and moral servant-leaders in their homes, the church, and in the marketplace, they are not men.
    So, a word to males from a real man. If you’re not seeking the Lord and His ways, you’re not on your way to becoming a real man, but simply a human being with male genitals. Jesus Christ was the ultimate man and we should all seek to follow Him and that means to be willing to lay down your life for others.


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    A. H. says:

    Ms. Stanek, REAL men don’t slap or beat their women, and for you to state that is DESPICABLE!
    And contrary to opinion, NOT all Italian families are LOVING. I grew up with 100% Italian parents. My Mother was right off the boat. The physical and emotional abuse that we their kids suffered at their hands was astounding and left us with permanent scars.
    I don’t advocate abortion, but I can tell you how my parents would have treated me if I had gotten pregnant as a teenager. I would have been ridiculed on a daily basis, and they would have told every person that would sit still long enough what trash I was. Not one day would have gone by where they didn’t throw up to my face what a BIG sin I had committed by having a baby out of wedlock. They would have treated my child the same way.
    When I did get pregnant at the age of 36 and married, they acted like I had just told them I had an abortion because they did not like my husband. They were not happy at all. My Mother also had the audacity to say to my sister RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY SON that she wished I never married his father, to which my son replied, “Then I guess you wish I was never born, Grandma.” This hurt my son and I very, very much.
    Thankfully both of these monsters are dead.


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    Jill Stanek says:

    A,
    First, let me express sorrow for your upbringing.
    As I responded earlier, my point was if a man has just been told a woman has killed his child, I would not fault him for responding with a slap. I cannot think of a better reason for righteous indignation.
    The “real man” comparison was to that of a coward or someone who would threaten to leave a woman if she doesn’t kill his baby.
    I’m not saying a slap in the a fit of anger is Scriptural. Jesus turned over tables but didn’t hit people. But I do understand, and in my opinion the man who has that reaction is more of a man than the other two.


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    J. Hughes Dunphy says:

    How many abortion-minded Catholics today and same-sex marriage Catholics feel they are being ‘nice and tolerant’ toward others who opt for this life style by being SILENT, but are literally paving their way to hell with such a diabolical tolerance.
    It is all about “false charity” within and without the Church which is destroying the West, one of Satan’s most cunning of weapons. There is much more on this–false charity!


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    Hal says:

    Phillip thinks you can’t be a “real man” without accepting “jesus.” I disagree. In the spirit of being as inoffensive as possible, I’ll leave it at that.


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    Tony says:

    Italy has lost her moral compass, as have the rest of Europe. That is why her indigenous population is declining as are the others.
    Not surprisingly, the second largest religion in the land of the Church of Rome is Jehovah’s Witnesses; nearly a quarter of a million. The waters of Christendom are drying up. [Re 17:1-6] Sadly, the USA had a head start in the slaughter of the innocents, so don’t be too hard on Italy. The USA has no claim to sainthood. [Re 16:13]


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    A.H says:

    I still disagree if he doesn’t like it he should divorce her not slap her.


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    R. M. says:

    I don’t think our generation will ever know for certain just how horrific “legalized” abortion is. I continue to believe that future generations will view our own with as much disdain as do the generations of Germans that suffer the “legacy of ethnic guilt” created by the Holocaust.
    I suspect that very same “legacy of guilt” will someday be borne by future generations of women who will come to realize just how evil the cult of “pro-choice” was.


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    Phil says:

    Hal,
    That’s Philip, not Phillip. What you call me is important.
    By the way, you wouldn’t be disagreeing with me about the definition of a real man but with the Holy Spirit and the inspired authors of 66 books compiled into 1 book over 4,000 years called the Bible.
    If you were a betting male, seems to me it would be pretty stupid to bet the outcome of your eternal soul against that mountain of evidence.
    Besides, the real issue is about how males have been major contributors to the abortion holocaust and very simply, had they been following Jesus Christ, would have never allowed this to happen.
    It’s amazing that you took this so personally in this male centered world. Where’s the concern for the unborn millions of human beings that are being slaughtered each year? Many of them are males and I bet they’re really offended and scream to their Creator in agony and bewilderment as they are being torn apart in what should be the second most safe place in the universe next to heaven, their mother’s womb. He does hear and He will make it right.


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    P. J. says:

    I admire your work and always read your columns. I loved this one but was sad for Italy and that little girl, who knew right from wrong. The scene you describe is one of the most powerful in motion-pictures making. The look on Michael’s face as his wife gives him the news is anger that only an Italian can summon. I know. I’m Italian back at least 5 centuries.
    Unfortunately, the figure you cite for population growth is true of all European cities and American whites and even blacks. True to Margaret Sanger’s purpose, they get abortions more than any other “group” and we can see it in numbers now. Miss Sanger would be happy. It’s so awful that folks do not know the true purpose of these “founders” or “researchers” like the horribly perverted Kinsey. If you have not read Intellectual Morons, by Daniel J. Flynn, do so soon. It is a series of short biographies of these people so honored by the left, or the ignorant.Whoops, I was repetitive.
    But I digress. The only people having families of 5 and 6 children are Mexican (illegal aliens) and Muslims. And with a president that wants no borders, thus a North American Union, the future will be a strange place. According to any Buchanan book and Ann Coulter’s last book, we will be outnumbered before 2050, which my children will live to see.
    My husband and I are lawyers. I quit when my first of three sons was laid in arms –anyone can do reverse triangular mergers but only I can inculcate my children with our morals and love of God. This spring they turn 21, 18, and 16 and I knew 21 years ago I would have to choose the right college because of the Left’s stranglehold. My oldest is at Auburn and the others will follow.
    Both my husband and I quit our membership in the American Bar Association 20 years ago when they took a stance for abortion. The ABA is not to express an opinion on any topic. We wrote a well reasoned letter advancing that view and our opinions. We received the nastiest letter in return, telling us that we were small minded, bigoted, probably religious people that just could not understand these matters.
    The problem is, they really don’t approve of “‘choice.” God bless you in your work.
    A proud Italian, small minded bigoted religious person,
    P.J.


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    Phil says:

    P. J.,
    As an Italian I am proud of you and you can bet the Lord is as well.
    Well done, good and faithful servant are words I am sure you will hear some day from One in a white, dazzling robe.
    Keep your chin up friend. Your mind is as vast as the universe because it is open to the only One who really matters.
    Phil


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    Bob Moffitt says:

    As an American-Irish man, married to an American-Italian wife, I think most of the criticisms for using a fictional, albeit well-known, Mafia character in Jill’s column to illustrate a point worth making, are mis-placed.
    There is no “right to choose” to kill an unborn baby. NONE. Even the idiots who sat on the Supreme Court when they “legalized” murder, after pretending they could not determine when life begins, qualified their decision by saying the moment life begins, abortion becomes illegal.
    Well, the first image in EVERY baby book for the last decade is the sono-gram image taken in mom’s womb.
    In any event, I suspect Jill was making the observation the decision to have an “abortion” ought not be left to a woman alone. After all, “it” is not “HER BODY”, it is ‘THEIR CHILD”.


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    Clay B. says:

    That was a good reference about the “Godfather” movies. I have only seen the first one when it aired in the 70’s. It shows how far Hollywood has fallen since then when even a Mafia movie had a pro-life message concerning abortion.
    What is happening in Italy and much of the world concerning abortion is very sad. The world must be in the last generation as there is no way God will permit things like this to go on indefinitely.


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    Jill Stanek says:

    Clay, you should see Godfather II. It was as good as Godfather I. You’re right. I’ve wondered if that abortion scene would be portrayed today as it was when the movie was made in 1974, before abortion became a cause celeb for Hollywood left-wingers.


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    Carl says:

    “That spontaneous slap was the reaction of a real man who a woman had just told she aborted his baby. Compare that to the modern day cowardly male response….”
    Jill, that was an awesome comparison/contrast. Please keep up the great work.


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    John McDonell says:

    “enough, enough you two!” We are ALL more than a little frustrated that human beings could be so callous as to dispose of their own children as if they were waste.
    How then can pro-lifer’s cause other people (pro-aborts) to change their reasoning process (even if it is illogical)? Or must we continue to wipe-up the spilt blood (after the deed is done)?
    Can we shift the focus from ‘rights’ …. (where whims define humanity) to ‘responsibilities’ … (where duties of protecting define ‘growing-up’)?


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    Terry says:

    Jill, I am so pleased to see the strength in your last column! The emphasis you have placed on the word “family” is great to see and hear from your heart. I hope more people have the pleasure to read it. Great job.


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    Jill Stanek says:

    John, you’re right. I’m deleting all the back and forths and letting Valerie’s original post stand on its own.


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    Bev C says:

    Brava Valerie! As a ROMAN Catholic and ITALO Americana, I am sick of the images of Mafiosi being used to sell everything from pizza to Pepsi and now the pro-life message. The young girl in question could have been in ANY European country. Like a lot of stranieri parents, Valentina’s parents could not be bothered to counter the messages of the oversexualized culture and teach their daughter chastity so they resorted to abortion.
    As for the character of “Kay” well that’s what we get when we marry a straniero/a (non-Italian). She’s not the only bride that deserved to be slapped but since Diane Keaton is such an annoying actress it is fun to see her get it.
    As for you Mr. Moffitt, your wife’s poor taste in spouses is not a credential for any IRISHman passing judgment on how hurtful the stereotype of Mafia is.


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    BevC says:

    Regarding Kay the unworthy marrying Michael, in words that any Irishman could understand:
    NEVER MIX, NEVER WORRY.


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    Bob Moffitt says:

    My Irish grandmother would have loved you Bev. When I brought my Italian wife-to-be home to visit my family for the first time, my Irish grandmother told her to get out of her house. We left. My reception in my future’s Italian household was not much better received.
    Ah, but then there were the grandchildren. Not surprisingly, both families, Irish and Italian, share the same love for their grandchildren.
    It is too bad the “old” intolerance seems to have found new believers.
    May the wind be always at your back, Bev.


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    BevC says:

    One should never tolerate the intolerable whether it is abortion or the destruction of one’s culture.


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    Bob Moffitt says:

    My last word. What in God’s name did I say that threatened your Italian culture? That I married an Italian woman?
    May the road rise up to meet you……


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    Brandine says:

    I’ve had 7 abortions and I turned out ok.


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    Brandine says:

    Nah, it’s ok, I just like killing babies and whatnot.


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    Phil says:

    Brandine,
    You say that you’ve had 7 abortions and turned out OK? Well, just being able to say that so callously means that you aren’t OK.
    Keep in mind that your race isn’t over yet and you have yet to meet your Creator at the finish line. Don’t let the devil steal your destiny by allowing yourself to be deceived into thinking that everything is fine and do nothing. It’s not and I tell you this because, even though I don’t know you, it saddens my heart that you are so self-deceived and heading for disaster.
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom is a statement in the Book of Proverbs. To God, ignorance is not bliss, it’s inexcusable. Abortion is murder and while we have all sinned and fall short of God’s glory, your statement is an indication that you have not even come close to realizing the true condition of your soul and therefore, have not approached the only One in the universe who can make even the 7 murders you committed as if they never happened. He will forgive you if you ask.
    If I had killed 7 human beings and thought the same way you do without repentance, I’d be afraid; very, very afraid….of meeting the One who doesn’t want to but because of His perfect holiness, would throw me into hell forever due to an unrepentant heart.
    Avoidance and denial is not a solution to what you have done. Honesty, integrity, love for yourself and surrender to He who died for you and your 7 children is. Please see the error of your way and beg for forgiveness now. Jesus Christ is the answer. It’s very simple.
    Please say this to God:
    Lord Jesus Christ, I admit that I have sinned against you. Lord, I believe that you loved me so much that you gave yourself for me to satisfy a debt I could never repay and I now turn away from my sins to follow you for the rest of my life. I open the door of my heart to you so please come in. As your Word states, you will in no way cast any out and you will never leave or forsake us. Thank you Lord for forgiving me. Help me to spread the word. In the name of Jesus, Amen.
    Now, if you said that prayer, find a good church that preaches and glorifies Christ and get baptized as a public witness to your confession. Your new life will be the greatest you could ever live.
    http://www.WhatMustIDoToBeSaved.com
    Phil


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    Ruth says:

    How very Christian of you to advocate domestic violence.

    “This story creates dilemmas for abortion proponents, not the least of which is abortion can cause a mother to crack up.”

    You’re conveniently forgetting that this girl was forced to abort. That she had no choice in the matter is as atrocious to pro-choicers as it is to you. Pro-choicers aren’t proponents of abortion; we’re proponents of allowing women to make reproductive choices for themselves.


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    Mike says:

    Brandine,
    Abortion kills more than a baby! There are over 750 Abortion Risks listed in Medical Literature. For more information, contact…
    The Rutherford Institute
    P.O. Box 7482
    Charlottesville, VA 22906-7482
    1-804-978-3888
    and request “Major Articles and Books Concerning the Detrimental Effects of Abortion.”
    http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10117
    What other medical procedure is “legal” and has over 750 risks to the mother/female? I won’t even bring up the surgery is lethal to the unborn baby.
    Mike


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    Mike says:

    Pro-choicers aren’t proponents of abortion; we’re proponents of allowing women to make reproductive choices for themselves.
    Ruth,
    The problem is your “choice” looks like this…
    http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.htm#galleries
    Hopefully someday Pro-Aborts will catch up with the rest of us and discover there’s a better alternative called “Adoption”!
    Mike (Pro-Life & Pro God’s Choice)


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    Brandine says:

    It’s ok, Phil. I don’t really need to ask your imaginary friend for anything.


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    Ruth says:

    Mike–

    Adoption is nice, but sometimes it’s really not an option (e.g., when the pregnant woman has an ectopic pregnancy or develops pre-eclampsia). Many women don’t feel comfortable putting a child in a system that’s already overloaded with unwanted children. There are additional reasons women have abortions, but the point is, women (and men) should be free to make their own reproductive choices without getting harangued.

    As far as your link goes, what’s your point, exactly? That every abortion is a D&X? Fifty-nine percent of abortions occur in the first trimester, when the abortion pill is the preferred treatment. (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html, http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/facts_mifepristone.html) And if your point is that abortion kills fetuses, I knew that already. If there were some way for women to get rid of unwanted pregnancies without killing the fetus, I would be in favor of it. However, no such technology exists.

    P.S. I’m not a Christian, so what God thinks (or doesn’t think) doesn’t matter to me. I am, however, all for the reduction of human suffering, and my opinion is that being able to have an abortion rather than being forced to carry an unwanted or medically unfeasible pregnancy definitely reduces the suffering of women. (Stories like the ones linked below are why I’m pro-choice.)

    http://www.cbctrust.com/nochoice/begin.html


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    John McDonell says:

    Hi Ruth,
    Ah, I love it when Doris Anderson is quoted – you will read very little from her that is anything but stimulating for the emotions. Whether a situation is resolved by these incursions has never been discussed and (for her) it needs to be ‘felt’ not solved.
    The fact than pregnancy does indeed cause emotional turmoil is without question … this turmoil in rare cases may even be physical! However, abortion does not ‘solve’ this suffering of women, because the child is not the cause of the problem.
    During the physical development of all human beings, there are 4 periods where they use an unusually high amount of zinc. Two of these periods are during pregnancy, the 3rd is immediately following pregnancy and the 4th is the onslaught of puberty. These periods exactly coincide with depressive states. The first two are not very well recognized since pregnancy is assumed to be a period of elation … or at least a period of neutral-emotions.
    Abortion is not a solution because a)to physically heal from the abortion procedure requires zinc, so this is added to an already zinc-deficient status; b) a awful lot of very new processes have begun in any pregnant woman. Just by removal of her babe does not make her un-pregnant chemically. The processes themselves are in place to allow the human to mature. Is there consequences at ‘snubbing’ these processes?
    Please note, that there is no link to any divinity. I am wondering why we treat a depressive state by killing?
    [There are two other things here to learn: that the 3rd period is the famous postpartum depression experienced by many women; and, that anyone going through teen years … PMS etc… is a shoe-in for depression during and after pregnancy.]
    Now … the ball is in your court. Will anyone even try this ‘remedy’ or do you remain fixated by the slogan … ‘Choice’?


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    Mike says:

    Adoption is nice, but sometimes it’s really not an option (e.g., when the pregnant woman has an ectopic pregnancy)
    Ruth,
    I think you should read this. Is Abortion ever medically necessary?
    http://www.all.org/article.php?id=10216
    Many women don’t feel comfortable putting a child in a system that’s already overloaded with unwanted children.
    Right now we have American parents going to other countries just to find a baby to adopt. Even if your premise was right — So you think it’s better to play the role of God and kill the unborn baby? Hmmm.
    There are additional reasons women have abortions
    Like what? Over 99+% of abortions are done for no other reason than “convenience”.
    women (and men) should be free to make their own reproductive choices without getting harangued.
    Ruth,
    Let’s get things straight. Pro-Lifers are Pro-Reproduction. It’s the Pro-Aborts who are Anti-Reproduction to a tune of 45,000,000+ times since 1973.
    Fifty-nine percent of abortions occur in the first trimester, when the abortion pill is the preferred treatment.
    Life begins at conception. Once conceived, the unborn baby needs to be carried to term.
    Mike


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    Molly says:

    I challenge you to adopt the unwanted child of a 13-year-old in Detroit if you’re so gung-ho about adoption.


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    Megan says:

    Frankly, I would like to see some cold, hard, honest evidence against abortion from some non-biased sources. That means, no religious websites, no conservative websites, etc. I want medical sources, non-profit organization sources.
    How can you expect anyone to respect your arguments when you can’t back them up with objetive truth?


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    John McDonell says:

    Hi Megan,
    for many, many years I thought as you did … read my post re zinc above. It comes from the biochemistry text called: ‘Zinc and Copper in Medicine’ eds Sarper and Karcioglu. Never once do they mention abortion, but they do assume that there is a continuum of life pre- and post- birth. It is strange (at least I find it so) that pro-aborts claim it is not killing (ending the life) of a human child … all medicine that is any good and even newer 4-D ultrasound imaging backs up the notion that there is indeed a living human being in the womb of a pregnant woman.
    There have been several posts that concede this, but still either ‘like killing babies’ [… the poster said that she ‘turned out OK’] or reasoned that because they were atheists that the pro-life movement was a religion sham … [I want objective truth! …. sound familiar?] So if medicine and biology are not objective enough, what is? Then perhaps psychology, philosophy, ethics, law … pick one or pick them all … anything but fantasy [must concede that Hollywood is better here].
    Even in religion: truth is not a what, but a who … and His name is Jesus. We willingly mock and kill truth and pretend He lives no more!


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    Megan says:

    By “objective proof” I should have said honesty. I am tired of reading articles that lie about abortion. (ex: It causes cancer – not only does correlation not imply causation but the American Cancer Institute declared this highly unlikely, I can find the source if you’d like). It frustrates me to see the lack of knowledge on the subject.. (I’ve had many pro-life people claim that a heartbeat begins at conception, that a fetus can feel pain before 20 weeks, none of which is true). I wish people would be informed.
    While it is true that the more we use science the more clearly we can see a zygote or embryo’s development that does not influence my belief that women have a right to privacy and control over their own bodies.
    What I find interesting is that your beliefs seem to be rooted in religion. Question: do you feel that abortion is just wrong or that it should be illegal, no one should be able to get one? Follow up: How do you feel about seperation between Church and state? Should congress legislate according to one’s religious beliefs?


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    John McDonell says:

    Hi Megan,
    thank you for you clear articulation. The abortion-cancer thing is called the ABC Link and just last week I was reading about this very topic … there have been some 26 academic studies re. this and 19 of the 26 claim that such a link exists. The authors could not understand why the American Cancer Society said that no such link existed. But besides that, it defies logic to claim that the hormone profile of a woman is drastically altered by any pregnancy. And that this unique metabolic structure would just go away … with no consequences at all. Let’s say … you were in an accident and one of your eyes destroyed … would you live exactly as before with no consequences?
    The claim over ‘their own bodies’ does have merit until you realize another (developing and dependant) living human is there, too. Or, is it OK to shoot at a moving car’s wheels? I can hear the plea now: “but Judge, I wasn’t trying to kill four people … I was just shooting at some tires!’
    Abortion is illegal …. according to natural law … a civil law usually attempts to align themselves with ‘natural law’. Most politicians have not heard of this … the usual phrase is ‘the common good’… so, there is no natural law besides gravity, and physics and medicine and law and … All sciences have an intrinsic rationale or logic. Our legal system used to be based on rights and responsibilities. But abortion negates this (finding life is of no consequence). Rules (obligations) are made-up as you go.
    Separation of church and state is fraught with all sorts of misunderstanding these days. Just as all my history classes in school, the people who are my friends, my family, etc defines much of the way I think, my faith is going to be one of those considered elements. If a person parks his/her faith at-the-door, we are robbed not only of that traditions’ wisdom [that would be 5000 years + in some cases], but we are robbed of the very thing we elected them for …. to be 100% real …. not 100%-(whatever is out/not-cool)


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    Julie says:

    Molly wrote:
    “I challenge you to adopt the unwanted child of a 13-year-old in Detroit if you’re so gung-ho about adoption.”
    OK, Molly. I’m in. I’ll raise that baby as if she grew in my own belly!! My husband and I have 4 adopted boys. Two boys we adopted in Chicago when they were infants and two boys we adopted when they were ages 8 and 2. Each of our children is black (we are white).
    There are people lining up for the “unwanted child” of a 13-year-old from Detriot. I’m not sure why you are so negative that people don’t want these children. They are all precious in God’s eyes. Every single one of them. Even the aborted children. God bless you.


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    Megan says:

    First of all, about the studies, there are many that indicate correlational connection. Many that do not indicate a correlational connection. IE: It is extremely hard to decide either way. Although, once again, anyone who knows anything about research knows that correlation does not imply causation. I am a researcher, so I have access to many different scientific papers/research/journals/etc. I have also taken many statistics classes. The reason why the cancer association came to this conclusion is because most studies that indicate a correlation between breast cancer and abortion either have a very low n value or little power. These studies are small and of little strength. Once you add more subjects to the study (larger n value) or eradicate extraneous variables (increase power) the correlation virtually disappears. See, that’s a big problem, because understanding the truth requires a person to have a familiarity with statistics… which most people do not. But, if you have access to the actual research article (not the report on its findings) and if you note the different levels of power and n values, it becomes clear that the significance of these studies drops down. Statistics is tricky business, if you’re interested, the book “Lying With Statistics” is a great read. It tells you all about how you can manipulate numbers to prove your point.
    Second of all, it is true there is an embryo growing inside of the woman. However, this embryo is not a person. I do not believe an embryo has the same rights as a person, or any rights at all, frankly, unless the woman deems it so. Its body cannot function on its own, it is not a separate entity. I’d suggest that we not start debating personhood, though, because the argument always ends up being circular in my experience.
    I find it frightening that you take the separation between church and state so lightly. This has nothing to do with popularity (or coolness). Theocracies are disasterous. Our founding fathers were quite aware of the dangers of mixing religious belief and government legislation. I’m not saying that every politician should “park their beliefs at the door”… I’m saying that it is not okay to apply one’s personal religious beliefs to anyone else. Most anti-choice sentiment comes from religious beliefs… (I’ve yet to hear a coherent, secular argument against choice). If you don’t believe in abortion, if it is against your belief, do not get one (or do not have a relationship with a pro-choice woman). Do not apply this belief to everyone else. That is where the problem lies, in my opinion.


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    Megan says:

    Mike,
    Okay, so I’ve been looking up medical journals all over the place… I’d suggest checking out this link: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16562329
    (I hope that you’ll be able to get to it, I’m not sure if you have to be on the University internet to gain access)
    It is an extremely long and in-depth medical journal summary with regards to the issue of abortion and breat cancer. It mentions the problems with the “ABC-link”
    It is very long, I recommend reading the conclusion, and the paragraph above the conclusion (it is about today’s research, which is more relevent).
    To sum it up: Over time, with better and better use of statistics and research design, it has come quite clear that there is no link between abortion and breast cancer.


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    Megan says:

    Mike, that’s a catholic website. We talked about this… please no website with a religious slant!
    Above your post, I’ve given you an awesome resource! A medical journal detailing the entire issue… from a research instituion. This is simply the numbers. Please read it!


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    Mike says:

    Here is something else you might find interesting…
    How National Cancer Institute Scientists Betrayed Women, Abortion and Breast Cancer: The Scientific Debate That Never Happened…
    http://www.cwfa.org/articles/3661/CWA/life/
    Mike


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    Megan says:

    Mike, I’m no fool. Please, you offend me. Concerned Women for America? When I went to their “about” page… guess what I got? Prayer!!! Once again you can’t provide me a medical journal to prove my point otherwise. I’ve won :)
    What is depressing is that I went out of my way to get you that medical journal. Written by scientists. People who understand disease and illness.
    You clearly didn’t read it (how depressing) If you had read it, you’d realize there is very little medical evidence to suggest that abortion causes breast cancer.
    i don’t understand how you an argue with a medical journal’s findings on this issue. Who better to publish honest breast cancer research than a medical institution? Unless you believe that medicine (like reality) has a liberal bias? You think you’re religion-slanted websites provide better evidence of breast cancer then a peer-reviewed medical journal? That is laughable… lets be realistic.
    If that is how you think… I have nothing more to say. It would be a waste of breath.
    We’re talking science here, Mike. My domain. Nothing holds up except peer-edited review and articles. Hard evidence. When it comes to cancer and issues like this, your religious websites can’t hold a candle to real medicine.
    However, you must not believe in doctors or medicine, because if you did, you’d know that there is very little evidence to suggest that breast cancer as a link to abortion.


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    anonymous says:

    Megan… that journal entry had a laundry list of sources at the bottom, many of which came from medical journals or Ph.D’s.


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    Jen says:

    What part of an abortion would induce breast cancer anyway? Shouldn’t logic follow that all women with miscarriages have the same increased risk? Physiologically, they are the same abrupt ending of a pregnancy. Typically, miscarriages happen on the fetus’ terms, being genetic malformations that cause cells to die and lose hold on the uterine lining. So, logic would also follow that these women’s bodies who have miscarriages had literally no control over the spontaneous abortion and still have the same chemical problems, like the zinc mentioned earlier. Does no one else realize this?
    Zinc levels or breast cancer, miscarraiges and abortions are physiologically no different. These are not reasons to make abortion illegal. The whole “abortions hurt women” argument is crap.


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    Megan says:

    -Sigh-
    “Megan… that journal entry had a laundry list of sources at the bottom, many of which came from medical journals or Ph.D’s. ”
    Yes… Mike… you see… you can find any yahoo expert to report any claim (IE: the moon landings were faked, etc.) But a peer-reviewed documented journal on a medical website is considered to be the best of the best on top-notch research. Many people with phd’s will disagree, that is why peer-review exists in science. I have linked you to an amazing resource that chronicles the entire issue and takes all the peer reviewed issues into account. A medical website would have no reason to be biased when it comes to cancer.
    I like how you’ve made no comment whatsoever about the fact that I have handpicked the best resource on this issue for you… a collaboration and analysis of the issue from a research institution… You ignore the fact that I’ve proven you to be, quite wrong.


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    Megan says:

    Jen, you’re completely right. Not only has it been shown by SCIENCE (that’s right, science people, not jesus) that there is no connection… it also does not make much common sense for a connection to exist.


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    Jess says:

    Sickening. If you were a true Christian you would NOT advocate violence against others. What is wrong with you? Is a zygote so important that you should take away the dignity of life — one of the most important things taught by Jesus? Or is sustaining life the only important part, not the quality of it?


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    Mike says:

    What part of an abortion would induce breast cancer anyway? Shouldn’t logic follow that all women with miscarriages have the same increased risk?
    Jen,
    The smoking gun is “estrogen”. If you listen to the link on my post on March 4th at 10:47PM I believe Karen Malec explains the difference between what happens to the estrogen in a miscarriage and abortion.
    The difference between the two is a miscarriage is a natural reaction from the body & a abortion is initiated by the abortionist and is not a natural action from the human body. Therefore estrogen reacts differently in these two cases.
    Mike


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    Jess says:

    Mike, you do realize that many abortions are performed with saline solution, correct? Saline solution is salt water. That’s it.


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    Jen says:

    Mike, there are problems with your statement.
    If you read my post thoroughly, you would notice that some miscarraiges are very unnatural. Some (not all) are a result of genetic malformations in the fetus that cause the cells to stop multiplying and lose hold of the uterus. The mother’s body has ABSOLUTELY NO control over this, nor can the woman’s body detect this in any way. The fetus dies and is expelled because it is no longer multiplying or attatched to the uterus. This is the same as an abortion. The fetus is surgically removed in the same way (remember, the woman’s body has no control or say over it) as the genetic malformation miscarriage. They are physiologically the same.
    So shouldn’t women with miscarraiges be getting breast cancer too? Since they aren’t, it’s crap that abortions would somehow magically cause it anyway.


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    Mike says:

    Megan,
    On my post from March 3rd at 4:22PM I stated you can get a list of over 750 Abortion Risks listed in Medical Literature/Journals from the Rutherford Institute.
    Mike


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    Jen says:

    Mike, there are problems with your statement.
    If you read my post thoroughly, you would notice that some miscarraiges are very unnatural. Some (not all) are a result of genetic malformations in the fetus that cause the cells to stop multiplying and lose hold of the uterus. The mother’s body has ABSOLUTELY NO control over this, nor can the woman’s body detect this in any way. The fetus dies and is expelled because it is no longer multiplying or attatched to the uterus. This is the same as an abortion. The fetus is surgically removed in the same way (remember, the woman’s body has no control or say over it) as the genetic malformation miscarriage. They are physiologically the same.
    So shouldn’t women with miscarraiges be getting breast cancer too? Since they aren’t, it’s crap that abortions would somehow magically cause it anyway.
    I believe Megan answered your source well. Can you find us a peer-reviewed source? If not, tough luck.
    And grow up. The term for a doctor who performs abortions is an OB/GYN, or Doctor, as they are commonly referred to in the MEDICAL world. Sorry, the term “abortionist” is not a scientific or AMA approved term. So if you are going to play with the big dogs and cite scientific studies, grow up and use scientific terms.


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    Jen says:

    Sorry it posted twice. Refer to the latter for the more complete post.


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    Megan says:

    Wow. Just… wow. You don’t believe in science unless it supports your claims, do you?
    No matter how prestigious, how peer-reviewed, nonprofit, an organization is… no matter how relevant an organization is (It is a medical research institution!) you refuse to acknowledge my article. Instead you keep pointing out different things… in some sad attempt to refute the fact that I have provided you with the best, top-notch, to-date, detailed journal on the whole situation.
    Let’s review from the beginning, shall we?
    Most of the research that indicates a correlation between breast cancer and abortion was done with serious design problems (low n, low power, etc.)
    Today’s research (which does not indicate a connection) is much better designed, with larger n’s (millions of women in these studies).
    I’m done. I’m not going to listen to anymore pointless posts on this topc. If you’re ready to actually read the peer-reviewed medical journal I provided (instead of just dancing around it) let me know.. otherwise… I’ve got nothing to say.. and apparantly you don’t know how research works.


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    Megan says:

    OMG, Mike. one more thing. I actually looked at your “peer-reviewed medical sources” from the cwa link… and many of them were from a website dedicated to proving the connection between breast cancer and abortion! *dies laughing*
    My, my, my… you’ve been pwnd.


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    Laura says:

    Hi, I’ve read through a couple of responses, and read the article. Firstly, I’m shocked that you were unable to find a more convincing example of a man to be a “real” man. Slapping a woman for aborting, makes Michael a real man, and a “good” Christian, never mind the people he has killed. Oh and lets not forget the Godfather III, where Kate watches her own daughter get killed because of Michael. I must say, this is a very very poor example to use to support pro-life.
    Also, since when do individuals have the right, like god, to pass judgement? I would never have an abortion, but as a Christian it is also not my right, and it would be arrogant to think it was, to pass judgement on a woman that would, or any other person that chooses an alternative lifestyle.
    Oh and in response to Mike, while legal safe abortions may have several risk factors, the risk factors were much more dangerous before Roe vs Wade. We can try to deny the fact that abortions took place before they were legalized, but we would be doing ourselves an injustice. Each year, especially near college campuses, health care professionals saw hundreds of botch abortions, and the women often died. Not only then do you lose the life of the child, but you also lose the life of the mother, who could have reformed herself. Luckily now, if and when a botched abortion comes into the ER, doctors can’t recognize it as quickly. Instead of attacking abortion and the people who have them, maybe we should try to create programs that teach girls and boys how NOT to get into those situations. Unfortunately abstinence only and virginity pledges also do not work. Basically, we need to stop lying to ourselves, and our children. I’m convinced that if you do your job right as a parent early on, by the time your chidren are young adults, you can teach them alternative options, and trust that they will make the right choice.


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    John McDonell says:

    Hi Megan and Jen,
    just now got-up and read your posts … thanks for your profound faith in the peer-review system of orthodox medical journals. These are definitely suspect in a big way, but the field that exposes this best is alternative medicine (Ralph Moss MD)of nutrition-base (http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php) or, the magnetic-energy-base. Very few people are aware of such bias (ie. Dr. Robert O. Becker ‘Cross Currents’ says “research follows the golden rule: he who has the gold sets the rules!”)
    You have definitely not ‘won’ this argumentation round. I proposed two separate reasons for there to be a causation … a link if you will. Jen is quite correct when she notes that there is no physiological difference between zinc-deficiency, breast cancer, miscarriage and abortion … on the surface, but are there any attached ensuing problems? Her conclusion that all this is bogus is indeed strange. Mike’s posting of some 750 negative consequences of abortion in entirely in keeping with the multifaceted role zinc has in human metabolic functions (cancer is but one). I am just surprised there are not more.
    The zinc-deficient status is exacerbated by any kind of operation … abortion as a medical operation procedure lowers already deficient zinc levels. [Other kinds of abortion techniques also lower this already-low amount.] Hurt women? – BIG time!
    Why doesn’t this appear starkly? …. maybe because (in our age) symptoms of extreme zinc-deficiency is so common, that it has been labeled ‘normal’. ABC-link is weak because cancer in young women is rare anyways … great repair mechanisms. So perhaps look to fertility problems to show a greater impact.
    Beware the word ‘wanted’. When I was a child, there used to be ‘WANTED – DEAD OR ALIVE’ posters. Is this the ‘wanted’ that pro-aborts wish for?
    Now Megan, who is playing with semantic distinctions. The word person is primarily a philosophic/legal/religious term used to denote a living human being …. a scientific term. We are talking about the same phenomenon only using different terminology. If you wish to play scientist … don’t escape to a supposed ‘safer’ realm called person-hood.
    The founders knew that the existence of God was a philosophic reality …. the whole notion of ‘rights’ and laws are based on this. The separation of which you speak is after this. A religion is not a philosophy but often uses philosophic arguments to justify itself. So, the thrust to maintain the divine is a philosophic (not religious) concept. No god = no rights for anyone = no constitution = no laws. Perhaps, you know a better way?


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    Phil says:

    Brandine,
    My “imaginary friend” as you call Him, was born, lived, was crucified, and resurrected. The evidence for this is overwhelming. You can read secular accounts of Jesus Christ in books written by Josephus. Any competent and honest lawyer looking at the case for Christ would tell you that if this were tried in court, the evidence would be more than sufficient to “prove” it.
    However, since faith is the evidence of things not seen and the substance of things hoped for, you will never have proof, if that’s what you’re looking for. For it is impossible to please God without faith.
    My “imaginary friend”, gave me a beautiful wife, 5 great children, a beautiful home, 3 businesses, and thousands of friends. Yet, even if that were all taken away, and He kill me, I would still love Him, because He is more important than all of those gifts.
    If I am wrong about Him (and I am not), no harm, no foul. If you are wrong……you lose the only thing of value that you have…your eternal soul.
    I believe that He is the Son of God, died on the cross for your and my sins and the sins of everyone, was raised and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.
    This is the amazing part. While He has no obligation to do so, He allows us to continue to live and breath and have our being. Allows us to sin without immendiate judgement while we blaspheme His name by denying his existence, killing his intended creation, etc. Why does He do this? Only because of His kindness in not wanting to see any of us perish and Him gracioulsy giving us time to change. The amount of time allowed, however, is not known and the choice is ours. The stakes are unimagineable.
    Hopefully, you will “see” this soon.
    I pray that my “imaginary friend” who really is more real than the chair you’re sitting on, the keybaord you’re tapping on, the computer screen you’re viewing, the building you so mercifully occupy, will reveal Himself to you so there won’t be any question in your mind. I pray that He, who knows you better than you know yourself, will fill you with His love and heal your wounded heart. In His perfect time, He will answer that prayer. The question really is, will you be able to recognize it when it happens?
    Phil


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    Sonya says:

    I’ve been hit by a boyfriend
    and I’ve had an abortion.
    I can say without a doubt, being with a man who would hit me was a FAR greater mistake than aborting what would have been his child.
    Having an abortion and leaving him were two of the best decisions I ever made.
    I’m with a very real man now, who would never hit me, and we have two beautiful children.
    Jill – you are sick and misguided. Real men NEVER hit women.


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    Phil says:

    To all of you who argue about whether an abortion hurts or doesn’t hurt women, etc., can’t you see that none of you are willing to change your position? This is an unending, futile practice that leads to nowhere.
    Abortion is a sin, just like lying, murdering, cheating or stealing are sins. If you don’t want to call them sins, then call them crimes and this is why they are illegal. To use the logic that abortion should be made illegal because it hurts the committer is like trying to determine whether or not lying, murdering, cheating or stealing should be made legal or illegal based on whether or not they harm the committer is ridiculous. We all innately know that these sins or crimes are wrong because they hurt someone else. Simply, we wouldn’t want these things to be done to us. So, as a former fetus, would any of us want to have been aborted? I think to say that the vast majority of us would say no. What then gives anyone the right to abort another human being?
    Do we now do unending scientific studies on how lying may or may hurt liars without regards to the harm it does to the one being lied to because we want to make lying legal or illegal? What about cheating? What about stealing? What about murder? Perhaps the real interest is in researchers lining their pockets with grants from pro-life and pro-death organizations and not about right and wrong. It


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    Amanda says:

    Ahhh Phil – what a fantastic Reactionary attitude.
    No one is going to change their minds so lets just stop trying?
    Imagine if Martin Luther King had believed that.
    We’d still be living in a country of disgusting, hateful, racial segregation.
    Science has proven there is no difference in the intelligence level or humanity between blacks and whites, and that science made racism baseless and stupid. If science supported all of the propaganda you’ve been fed about the effects of abortion, you’d be heralding and celebrating that science. Its only because it DOESN’T support your belief that you’re opposed to it.
    It also seems like you need to be reminded of the fact that America is not a theocracy. I have morals and follow laws without believing in the same God you do, and it is blasphemous and self righteous of you to assume the God you believe in is superior to the one I believe in.


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    John McDonell says:

    no Amanda,
    not blasphemous at all … perhaps ‘smart’ and willing to listen!
    btw the black were only emancipated to the level of the white man. Freedom as Phil speaks of it is a religious experience prompted/allowed by God …. there is only One … we are His creatures; not ‘my’ god/divine being.

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