Recipe for euthanasia
From the New York Times, March 21:
More than five million Americans have Alzheimer’s disease, a 10 percent increase from the last official tally five years ago, and a number expected to more than triple by 2050, absent a cure, as the 85-and-over population soars and the baby boomers move into their late 60s and 70s.
From the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, March 2007:
In April 2006, officials with the Health Resources and Services Administration released projections that the nation’s nursing shortage would grow to more than one million nurses by the year 2020…. [A]ll 50 states will experience a shortage of nurses to varying degrees by the year 2015…. [There is currently] a national RN vacancy rate of 8.5% [in hospitals].
Three points.
1. Thanks, abortion.
2. Sick, aging baby boomers should be categorized: Those who have advocated abortion the past 34 years should roll their wheelchairs to the back of the line.
3.What goes around comes around. Aging abortion proponents should not be surprised to hear surviving young family members say they cannot afford to care for them, they have no room for them, or this is just not a good time.
[Photo from the 1973 sci fi movie, Soylent Green]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I suppose it’s only a matter of time before the loss of memory equals the loss of life.
It’s funny how we all say “things aren’t made like they used to be”…we complain that they are made to break so that we have to buy new ones. Clothing industries take shortcuts and clothes shrink and fall apart. Unless you buy Amish furniture, you probably won’t be handing that dresser down to your grandchildren. What’s that phrase? Oh yeah. A disposable society.
It looks like it is trickling down to people too.
Out with old, in with new. Don’t rehab that house, tear it down.
Poor old grandpa is just soooo yesterday.
MK
What does this have to do with abortion?
Also it’s not just people with Alzheimer’s who are put into nursing homes. “Normal” elderly people are as well.
Are you suggesting that people who support abortion are the only people who are putting their Alzheimer’s affected parents into homes? Or that pro-choice people don’t care that their is such a disease.
News flash if that’s the case. People from all back grounds put family members into homes. And (I can’t speak for the entire pro-choice community), but I’ve done six walks for Alzheimer’s research and raised over $800 for the cause between them. I’ve also done number walks for Cancer (I’m doing another one in two weeks called Relay for Life. I walk from 7pm-7am.) and for AIDS.
Personally, if I had Alzheimer’s I wouldn’t want to be a burden on my family. Nor would I want to be living. I couldn’t even begin to imagine how hard it must be to have a love not recognize you or for me to not recognize anyone. *Personally*, I’d rather die.
Danielle, here is the math:
1. Abortion = less nurses = less ability to care for old people.
2. Abortion supporters = more abortions, which should = abortion supporters being the first to suffer for it
I assumed this was a Pro-life site. From conception to the end of natural life.
I wasn’t referring to pro-choicers at all. Just noting that Euthanasia is down the line, and some of the same arguments that are used for abortion will probably be used for euthanasia…like a person’s uselessness.
MK
Did you know that if you type “Useless Eaters” into the search engine, you’ll get 358,000 hits…
Just something to do if your bored.
MK
Jill,
Yes, because ALL of those aborted fetii would have become nurses.
If you want to do math that way.
Abortions= less people=less nurses AND less people suffering from Alzheimer’s.
I feel that this was really unneccessary. Three points:
1. There was a 4.5% unemployment rate in February 2007. Even with the shortage of nursing, there are still people who dont have jobs. They must not be nurses. There is no reason to assume that adding 45 million people into the work force would end the nursing shortage.
2. My grandmother is a quadraplaegic Alzheimer’s patient. If it werent for the nursing home, my mother would be unable to work and my father would be unable to support his family.
3. Jill, arent you a nurse? Do you still work as an RN, or have you contributed to the nursing shortage that you are blaming on abortion?
This, I feel, is a stretch. Like whoever said that abortions caused a military shortage.
I have nothing personally against this argument of pro-lifers. I just find it exaggerated and a bit ridiculous.
OK, I’ll bite.
1. How is abortion responsible for the nursing shortage?
2. How is abortion responsible for aging of the baby boom?
Hey, I posted something to His man in another blog that has since been moved to the archives and thus, less easily responded to. I want to know what you think about it:
His man, I was referring to the idea of a an artificial, non-human womb, much like the life-support systems that premature babies today have to be put on. We need to improve upon this technology…I have actually spoken to a vehemently pro-life man about this and he agrees with me…the purpose of abortion is to end a pregnancy, not a life. It’s just a sad symptom that today’s technology can’t solve that problem. The thing is, with an artificial womb idea, the woman may abort a live fetus early in her pregnancy, and this fetus may then be put on a life support machine to allow it to continue developing. This way, she regains her bodily autonomy, doesn’t form a nine-month bond with the fetus (which makes it so hard for a woman to give up a baby for adoption), the fetus lives for the requisite 9 months, and abortion as we know it today can be changed to meaning “the end of a pregnancy”, not the “end of a human life”. The woman may even be given the option of taking the baby home after nine months of development…this is also a plus in dangerous pregnancies!! I’m all for allowing women to have the right to be or to not be pregnant. Of course, a woman who wants to have a natural pregnancy is more than within her right to do so. This is how I, as a pro-choicer, would seek to solve the problem of today’s abortions. We’re just not trying hard enough to please both sides.
Babies live, women’s bodily autonomies are restored without endangering their own lives or health, the adoption dilemma is easier to solve, and both sides are satisfied. This would just be so easy if we had the technology (hopefully soon it will be developed and implemented). As a biology major and pro-choicer, I might take up this quest alongside you pro-lifers…so that each side might come to common ground.
hi Leah,
this is not the stretch that you imagine. It’s called population demographics …. it is used as a planning tool by governments to plan for the future, based on population studies. A book almost a decade old called: ‘Boom, Bust and Echo’ was one of the first to warn of human demography collapse. What Jill says about RN’s also goes for any profession you can think off from doctors, teachers, pilots, ship personnel, engineers, biochemists …. on and on even store sales staff and miners, long-shore workers… as they age there is none to fill the void … all these people will retire one day … your folks too.
Will you take the easy solution (when they retire) and just blow their heads off (as people now die by the millions via abortion … sorry, late-term abortions just suck out their brains). [Codex will make it necessary to close nursing homes … they have a goal to kill 3 BILLION people worldwide. That’s just under half of the world’s present population! http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php%5D The ‘bust’ scenario cannot all be blamed on abortion, it just makes a bad situation worse … harder to get out of the grave we are digging ourselves into.
And the military … how’s about the extra 30 million males that China will have in the near future because of its 1-Child policy. They’ll likely end up in China’s military. I sure hope they will not expand too much through wars. [30 million is about the whole present population of Canada.]
Your future is none-too-bright!
Danielle, 5:31p., I’m enjoying our math challenges. Ok, pick a number between 1-10. Double it. Add 14. Divide by 2. Subtract the number you started with. I’ll tell you your answer tomorrow.
Samantha, 5:59p., yes, I’m an RN, and no, I no longer work in that field. My career path changed one night.
Leah, 6:37p, ok, you’re right. Three or four pregnancies out of 10 in America end in abortion. At least 1/3 of Gen X and Y are not here due to abortion. Not just them, but their children.. and their children. The 34-year-olds would have 10-15-year-olds by now. But none of this has made a statistical difference in our work force. You’re right.
I mean, don’t you think the gruelling hours, crummy pay, and always having to follow orders might have more to do with it?
Cause/effect
Reap/Sow
Fewer babies=smaller available work force=fewer (fill in the blank).
It’s a no-brainer.
Pro-deathers, despite overwhelming evidence, bury their heads in the sand. It’a amzing how our educational (or should I say, indoctrination)system has taught people that 1 + 1 = 1 always as long as you have the liberal media, godless professors and so-called intelligensia, and pro-death Democrats in your pocket.
I challenge researchers, if they haven’t done so already, to do a fair, unbiased study on what the effects of abortion have done to our society. Anyone?
Why isn’t there a shortage of surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives?
IF more abortions had been done in the 1930s and 1940s, the retirement problem would be smaller today.
“Fewer babies=smaller available work force=fewer (fill in the blank).”
Then why does this country have such a large unemployment problem. Ever been to Western New York. There’s so few jobs that people are moving out.
it’s a-comin soon SOMG,
to a neighbourhood near you … [and Steven King’s novels will seem like a picnic next to the nightmare that will begin for earnest within 5 years].
Alyssa,
I haven’t read previous postings on how you arrived at the idea of artificial wombs, but perhaps you may or may not know that Dr. Bernard Nathanson, one of the founders of NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action league)came up with that very same proposal about twenty-odd years ago. As a practicing abortionist, he chronicles his entry into the abortion business and his eventual disillusionment in his book “Aborting America”. I read a copy of it years ago in Miami. At the time of printing, he remained staunchly pro-choice and longed for the day that babies could be spared and women could go on with their lives, echoing the sentiment you expressed in your posting. I think he mentioned some drawbacks as well, such as an over-abundance of unwanted fetuses developing in these artificial wombs and what to do with them and such.
What’s remarkable is that decades after founding this flagship pro-abortion organization, he has completely changed his ideology, was baptized into the Catholic Church,and has written another book called “The Hand of God” which delves more into the reasons why he was involved with the abortion industry and what led him into the pro-life camp. He even shares what it was like aborting his own child. (Kind of chilling when you think about it)
I have not read “Hand of God”, but I would definitely want to someday.
And finally, even if abortion WERE responsible for the nursing shortage and the baby-boom retirement problem, would that justify having the government force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term?
SOMG,
Your question. “Why isn’t there a shortage of surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives?”
My answer: You obviously have never travelled to a third world country. Obviously, the tremendous needs in those parts of the world would have been served by the surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives that were killed by their mothers before they had a chance to become surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives.
God had a plan for each one of those murdered surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives and it wasn’t to be killed by their mothers who instead wanted to become surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives rather than allow their babies to live.
It’s not about you, it’s not about me, it’s not about America. It’s about serving others and treating others as if they were more important than yourself.
Danielle:
Your question: “Then why does this country have such a large unemployment problem. Ever been to Western New York. There’s so few jobs that people are moving out.”
My answer: Yep. Lived there for 23 years. Can you spell Hillary Clinton? She’s the poster child for how not to run a goverment and she was mentored by the likes that created the fiasco now present in the former “Empire State”. Now if that’s not a halcion cry, I don’t know what is. Anybody living in Western NY will tell you all about Hillary’s illustriuous career in NY.
Now, the last time I checked the montly reports, the whole country does not have an unemployemnt problem. You’re absolutely right though about the good old snow/rust belt Western New York. Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse has been terrorized by unions and high property taxes for years which primarily went to subsidize the decadence in New York City and the state welfare mentality. The Bible says that if man doesn’t work he should not eat. Among other things NY disobeyed this admonition to a fault and wrote the book on how to spit in God’s face while at the same time make it look like compassion for the poor.
Previous fortune 500 companies like Kodak and Xerox employed almost 90,000 people at one time. I worked for both of them as a college student in construction and then in their high tech research departments when laser technology was in it’s infancy. These two companies were mercilessly targeted by civil rights groups in the 60’s and 70’s, i.e., Jesse Jackson and company, because they were easy pickens with deep pockets in a political system that was willing to look the other way. These companies became so burdened with these so-called other issues that they lost their vision and abilty to invest (i.e., had to lay off their best scientists and engineers and keep or hire, for the most part, incompetents who sat on their fat behinds and produced nothing except to fill the wastebaskets with their paycheck stubs) and therefore compete in the world marketplace and to be frank their products sucked.
So, a shrinking market share in a shrinking market place a good business model does not make (Economics 101). Think of all the copies that weren’t made (i.e. birth certificates)and photos not taken, especially baby photos, because of all the murdered children. (50,000,000 by probably a 100,000 each or so, now that’s a lot of Brownie cameras and toner and carrier and dry ink, and photoreceptors and Selenium, and Corotron wires, and film, and silver nitrate, and plastic, and gears, and paint, and paper, and factories and chemicals, and on and on and on.
The steel plant in Lackawanna, NY near Buffalo was one of the biggest steel producers in the world at one time. The goverment and the unions sucked them dry, again, the welfare mentality which is tied directly to the death/abortion mentality.
And New York is probably one of the states in the US in which the most abortions have been performed because of the liberal and welfare mentality that exists there.
Let’s see…welfare + abortion + take prayer out of schools + fake compassion + rewarding laziness = you guessed it….unemployment, poverty, hopelessness.
I am so glad God led me out of that place 31 years ago, when you guessed it, Xerox wanted to hire me as an engineering research scientist because of my work in the laser technology research department during the summer of 1976….”gee, we’d love to hire you, but we can’t, we’re closing that portion of the research department”.
Now, Western New York is a microcosm of why we should absolutely not let Hillary or any like her near the White House. She is pro-welfare, pro-welfare-mentality, pro-abortion, pro-redefinition of marriage, anti-military, pro-homosexual perversion and pro-just about every other evil that will destroy this country. A path that Bill initiated when he was in the oval office thinking it more important to have an aide nurse on his penis than on how to deal with Osama bin Laden. Why I bet the plotters of 9/11 saw his behavior as a real sign of strength and character from a real man.
So, that’s my short answer.
Hows about a little reality check folks…
The nursing shortage in the United States is caused by lack of nurse educators, not people.
Nursing schools in the U.S. are turning down hundreds of thousands of students because they simply lack the staff to educate the students and the funds to extend their programs. The college I work for turned down over 1000 students who applied for the nursing program just this year. Why? Because there’s no room for them. Hunter College, one of the oldest public nursing schools in the country, turned down over 1200. Why? Because there is no room for them.
Due to pay increases for clinical nurses over the last decade, older nurses are no longer tempted to switch over to education, because they take a HUGE pay cut, often more than 20 thousand dollars. Instead, they remain at the clinical level, and as educators retire, they leave a gap of nurse educators. The problem is that in order to train nurses, you must hold at least a masters in nursing. This is not a degree level that most nurses achieve, so it becomes a cycle – not enough nurses with masters degrees = not enough teachers to meet the demand created by students interested in becoming nurses.
The reason this shortage is expected to increase, is because the nursing shortage has resulted in a higher stress work environment, and nurses are demanding and recieving higher pay – creating an even larger pay gap between clinical nurses and nurse educators.
We are projecting to send out 1500 rejection letters in 2007. 1600 applicants – but only enough full time nursing faculty to accept 100 students.
We turned down over 100 this semester alone with 3.5 GPAs.
Sorry Jill, hate to burst your bubble, but this particular shortage has absolutely NOTHING to do with lack of people – OR abortion.
“His Man”: So the nursing shortage, and the problems arising from the retirement of the baby-boom, are clinton’s fault?
SOMG:
Your question: “”His Man”: So the nursing shortage, and the problems arising from the retirement of the baby-boom, are clinton’s fault?”
My answer: “Patterns and principles grasshoppa. (Was that a Freudian slip that you did not capitalize Mr. Clinton’s name…..only Monica knows for sure). That’s how God works. If leaders adapt destructive patterns and principles, they will reap destruction. The same patterns and principles of leadership that Clinton adopted and embraced are the same patterns and principles that the likes of Margaret Sanger espoused, the mother of the US abortion industry.
When you plant destructive seeds, you reap destructive weeds. Clinton was one of those destructive weeds. We’ll see the results of Clinton’s legacy in our children’s children.
The Bible says a good man leaves a legacy to his children’s children. The converse of that is that a bad man does not leave a legacy to his children’s children, either because his children did’t have children (you know because they were murdered by an abortionist) or because they were not good people. I wonder if Chelsea has ever had an abortion?
Whether Clinton caused the nursing shortage is debateable. One can argue for example that by teaching young women that nursing on a boy’s penis is not sex could have resulted in more cases of oral STDs. Wouldn’t they extra need nurses to treat those otherwise unneccessary cooties?
Regarding the problems arising from the retirement of the baby-boomera. Yep, Clinton did it. All those old guys are now dirty old men who can’t wait to retire and are now looking forward to nurses nursing on their penises. I mean the President did it, so why can’t they.
Nurses, this is an obvious satire aimed at a very stupid question. I have nothing but the utmost respect for people who give their lives in
serving others.
Listen, abortion has only a small impact on population. This has been studied. most poeple who have abortions dosn’t have less children, they simply have children later in life. An abortion at 18, a child or two at 26 to 30. The delay in childbirth stretches the generations out, and so there are some less people, but that includes less poor, less rich, less sucessful, and less criminals. And, as some have argued, a lot of these “unwanted” births would have been the poorest, most poorly educated, and least loved amoung us. Not too many would be nurses.
HisMan says:
“God had a plan for each one of those murdered surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives and it wasn’t to be killed by their mothers who instead wanted to become surgeons, or art teachers, or business executives rather than allow their babies to live.”
Are you a 100% SURE God’s will was NOT that the embryo was going to be aborted? How can you be sure to know what God wants for all embryos in general? Do you know His will a 100%? I don’t, even though I talk to Him many an hour. Dangerous terrain, HisMan…
Also, by your logic in the post above, 1 surgeon had to die in order for another surgeon to do her work. Economically, that is a net loss of zero.Where’s the problem in terms of nurse or surgeon supply?
I find good pro-life arguments extremely thought provoking, and they have done much to keep me on the fence instead of joining the pro-choice crowd without consideration. But this argument HisMan is trying to make is so extremely flawed it does not even deserve consideration.
The little math example above is right. More people=more altzheimer=need for more nurses. The net result might be unchanged again. It is like saying: Uh, you aborted the next Ghandi. Well, how about you aborted the next Hitler? How about you didn’t give birth to a nurse but just an average drug addict?
And anyways, as soon as you bring in economic quantification, let’s start doing cost-benefit analysis on BOTH sides why abortion should or should not be legal. It seems a bit absurd considering the actual issue.What does the future economic contribution of a person have to do with its rights as a fetus? The idea about what should happen to a fetus that will probably be useless for society is ambiguous. Should women who decide to keep down syndrom babies, who will never add much in terms of economics but rather TAKE from the system, be forced to abort?
HisMan
“When you plant destructive seeds, you reap destructive weeds. Clinton was one of those destructive weeds. We’ll see the results of Clinton’s legacy in our children’s children.”
HisMan, have you ever even looked at the development of abortion statistics? They actually FELL under Clinton and have now stagnated. Probably due to better social provisions and education which, you know, in some cases enable women to follow through with a pregnancy and also reduces infant mortality. But social provision is not big on a certain current president’s list. Have fun reaping THOSE seeds in a few years when you are in need of care :-).
Hisman,
What you call touch feely I call respecting other human beings. I have never once said that the views they hold are right. I just respect their right to hold them.
And I never said Danielle’s uncle was married. I never said I condoned what they were doing. I simply said that if you took their arrangement (a loving, monogamous relationship, and put it on the altar before God, you would come up with the true definition of marriage.)
You may think I am not following Christ’s ministry, but Jesus did not berate and belittle everyone for not accepting Him. He invited people. You seem to think that you can shame people into accepting Him, I prefer to love them into it.
I have not been wishy washy in any way about my beliefs and I’m pretty sure “my girls” have actually been reading what I have written.
I don’t think they are taking you seriously because you put them on the defensive.
And while I often refer to something that you wrote, I am not putting words into your mouth.
I am simply making observations and giving my own slant on the topic. This is after all, what a blog is all about. I have not once, criticized your way of doing things, and yet you consistently correct me in front of everyone. Counterproductive for people on supposedly on the same side, don’t you think? If I feel attacked by you and we are theoretically on the same side, I can’t imagine what people on the other side feel like.
I’ll say again, Jesus died with His arms OPEN, inviting people to come to Him, not hammering them over the head. You do it your way. I have no problem with that. But please stop chastising me for doing it mine. I have not yet resorted to telling you what I think of your methods because I respect your right to use them, but I will if I am pushed enough. Let’s don’t make this a fight between you and me, but instead a “fight” together for the Truth.
MK
I have reposted here because the original post is likely to dropped soon and I didn’t want to lose this. It is a response to a post by HisMan on the
monogamy topic.
mk
If not for pro lifers, who oppose stem cell research for a variety of misguided reasons, we would be well on our way to finding cures for horrible diseases such as Altzheimers. And this current discussion would be moot. Its a shame that your life is only valued if you are yet to be born.
If not for pro lifers, who oppose stem cell research for a variety of misguided reasons, we would be well on our way to finding cures for horrible diseases such as Altzheimers. And this current discussion would be moot. Its a shame that your life is only valued if you are yet to be born.
Pro-lifers support stem cell research. We oppose embryonic stem cell research.
We are not against stem cell research. We embrace stem cell research. Adult stem cell research, which by the way, is the only stem cell research that has produced any notable results.
We oppose embryonic stem cell research on moral grounds. We oppose it because it is unnecessary and has actually produced unwanted results.
As for only caring about the unborn, if you read any earlier posts you would know how very untrue this is.
I have spoken about Euthanasia for the elderly, my father, who has PVS, Terri Schiavo, the poor, the homeless…
Be careful before you accuse people, because you lose credibility when you’re wrong.
mk
Joe, you wrote: “Should women who decide to keep down syndrom babies … be forced to abort?
Down Syndrome? What about cystic fibrosis? This dread genetic disease usually kills the victim in his or her 20s or 30s by a series of deadly lung infections which must be surgically cut out of the patient’s chest by expensive thoracic surgeons until there is no lung tissue left. If you give birth to a CF baby it’s all but certain that you will outlive your child (unless he or she gets a heart-and-lung transplant and it succeeds) and likely that his or her medical bills will bankrupt you in any case. We should be waging war against this gene! CF can be completely eliminated by early detection and abortion of positive pregnancies.
Most women who are at risk for CF pregnancies have no problem with this. The right-to-lifers among them are the problem.
It’s not at all obvious that women who conceive CF++ pregnancies should be permitted to grow them and bring them into the world. That is, unless one believes in the mother’s absolute freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference.
SOMG,
I believe you were born in the wrong era. Nazi Germany is a much better fit. Once again you are the best argument for being pro life that I have ever seen. And the best argument for the connection between the Nazi holocaust and abortion.
I’m growing to love you SOMG, as you do all my work for me. I keep trying to point out to these young people how callous and inhumane abortion is and every time you open your mouth, you confirm it.
Keep on talking. You’ll win them over to our side sooner than anything I could possibly say.
I may not know that much about “abortions”, but I sure do know moral depravity when I see it. I’ll be prayin’ for you. You get extra points for praying for the worst of the worst.
Thanks Buddy,
MK
No, JK, I agree with you that the right-to-lifers are wrong about embryonic stem cells generally, but expanded or even unrestricted use of embryonic stem cells will not put us “well on the way” to curing Alzheimer’s. That’s an exaggeration.
The fact is, Alzheimer’s is a really refractory problem, and we almost certainly won’t be “well on the way” to a cure any time soon no matter what we do.
No, MK, the German Nazis did not believe in the mother’s freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference. The opposite, in fact–they believed that women’s reproductive organs were the property of God and the state.
MK
You have my utmost respect.
The true sign of a good person, and a good Christian, is one who sees through petty differences in opinion or politics and looks for kindness and a good heart.
People like you are the reason the group I hold at my school (a collaboration between pro lifers and pro choicers to reduce abortions through non-legistlative methods) WORKS.
People like “Hisman”, on the other hand, seem to always be looking for an excuse to attack, belittle, berate, and judge. This accomplishes NOTHING. I find it ironic that he speaks so highly of Christ and the influence Christ has on his life – when Christ himself would have never used those methods to spread his word. “HisMan”‘s behaviors anger those who disagree, and shed a negative light on those who agree but are trying to get the message across in a more positive manner.
Its a shame for everyone…because with people like him around – not much can be done constructively by either side working together.
Joe, you wrote: “Should women who decide to keep down syndrom babies … be forced to abort?
Down Syndrome? What about cystic fibrosis? This dread genetic disease usually kills the victim in his or her 20s or 30s by a series of deadly lung infections which must be surgically cut out of the patient’s chest by expensive thoracic surgeons until there is no lung tissue left. If you give birth to a CF baby it’s all but certain that you will outlive your child (unless he or she gets a heart-and-lung transplant and it succeeds) and likely that his or her medical bills will bankrupt you in any case. We should be waging war against this gene! CF can be completely eliminated by early detection and abortion of positive pregnancies.
Most women who are at risk for CF pregnancies have no problem with this. The right-to-lifers among them are the problem.
It’s not at all obvious that women who conceive CF++ pregnancies should be permitted to grow them and bring them into the world. That is, unless one believes in the mother’s absolute freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference.
That is just plain scary. MK hit the nail on the head in her response.
SOMG
It’s not at all obvious that women who conceive CF++ pregnancies should be permitted to grow them and bring them into the world. That is, unless one believes in the mother’s absolute freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference.
No, MK, the German Nazis did not believe in the mother’s freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference. The opposite, in fact–they believed that women’s reproductive organs were the property of God and the state.
And you disagree with this outlook how?
MK
Amanda,
thank you,
mk
MK, I believe in the mother’s freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference. I do not believe, as the German Nazis did, that women’s reproductive organs are the property of God and the state. I believe that every woman’s reproductive organs are her own property.
SOMG,
These were your words, not mine.
It’s not at all obvious that women who conceive CF++ pregnancies should be permitted to grow them and bring them into the world.
Most women who are at risk for CF pregnancies have no problem with this. The right-to-lifers among them are the problem.
mk
MK, you misquoted me by quoting only half the paragraph. My words: “It’s not at all obvious that women who conceive CF++ pregnancies should be permitted to grow them and bring them into the world” were followed by the modifying words: “That is, unless one believes in the mother’s absolute freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference. ”
I don’t know what you’re trying to prove with this cheap high-school debator’s trick, which has no place in a serious discussion.
SOMG, you also said, “We should be waging war against this gene! CF can be completely eliminated by early detection and abortion of positive pregnancies.”
SOMG,
sweetheart,
it is hardly a debaters trick. Anyone can go back and read your post, not to mention that both
Bethany and I reprinted it twice in full. I only pulled out selected parts because you denied saying them.
Quite honestly, when I read your post, I took the line “”That is, unless one believes in the mother’s absolute freedom to decide for herself what to do with her pregnancy without government interference. ” to be a snide reference to us pro lifers. Especially when you preceded it with “Most women who are at risk for CF pregnancies have no problem with this. The right-to-lifers among them are the problem.”
Apparently Bethany inferred the same thing. Perhaps it your communication skills and not my sophomoric tricks that are the problem.
By the way, I spent my high school years stoned, and didn’t learn much of anything, let alone “debating tricks”
I don’t need to “prove” anything. You are doing a fine job of it yourself.
MK
JK, 3/23, 7:45a: Regarding Alzheimers, FNC, 3/23, 8:40a, has (surprisingly) corroborated it is false to assert human embryos will lead to that disease’s cure. Read this Washington Post article, which says, in part:
But the infrequently voiced reality, stem cell experts confess, is that, of all the diseases that may someday be cured by embryonic stem cell treatments, Alzheimer’s is among the least likely to benefit.
That said, even if escr could cure Alzheimers, pro-lifers would still oppose it. Two wrongs and all that.
Ok. I’m doing a collective response here. This is ridiculous.
John 7:53pm: “Your future is none-too-bright!”
*rolls eyes* Gee, thanks. None of what you said made any relevent sense to me. I have not been convinced that this is not a stretch. And saying my future isn’t bright … what? My future is very bright. I even have it all planned. You don’t know me.
Jill 8:52pm: “Three or four pregnancies out of 10 in America end in abortion.”
Can you site that? That’s a pretty impressive figure. No, I don’t mean impressive in a good, abortion-affirming way before anyone jumps to that conclusion.
Danielle 9:47pm: “Ever been to Western New York. There’s so few jobs that people are moving out.”
Michigan too! We lost electoral points, so many people are moving out. *cries*
MK 7:35am: “Jesus did not berate and belittle everyone for not accepting Him.”
YES!! Exactly! This has nothing to do with the topic, but I have to comment on it because THAT is such a simple fact that people seem to have such a hard time understanding! THANK YOU!
I’ll be back later when I feel like I can be more constructive.
Ciao
Hi Bethany,
as one who lives every second with a genetic abnormality, I have done some research. MK, many biochemists and pro-choicers are wrong about abortion being a ‘cure-all’ for genetic diseases because it is the wrong target.
Let me explain – the DNA molecule itself can be altered by nutrition and radiation (environmental factors: things so powerful that DNA strands are no5 just unwound but snipped into fragments … Robert O. Becker, ‘Cross Currents’ … likely why cell phones and leukemia happen!) (getting back to topic) CF, Downe’s and thousands of other genetic abnormalities exist because the mother was nutrient deficient (likely zinc). This kind of deficiendy causes all sorts of havock but, only a few are deep enough to alter genetic makeup.
A CF genetic factor that exhibits itself in the altered genes of parents MUST BE also be coupled with inadequate nutrition. A genetic screen does not account for this and has yet to be recognized (by most orthodox medical personnel) as an operant factor.
I read where sufficient zinc and vitamin B6 during pregnancy would eliminate over 90% of all genetically based diseases. Please, let me know whether you wish to start this!
John,
If Jill says it’s okay, I’d be open minded.
mk
Leah, 9:50a, asked me to site my source for the stat I gave last night that 3 or 4 of 10 pregnancies ends in abortion. My source is Guttmacher’s Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States, May 2006:
Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion. Twenty-four percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.
I glossed over the word “unintended.” So when I stated “at least 1/3” of Gens X and Y have been aborted, I should have stated “at least 1/4.”
John, you wrote: “A CF genetic factor that exhibits itself in the altered genes of parents MUST BE also be coupled with inadequate nutrition.”
Hee hee! That’s utter nonsense.
If you carry a copy of the mutant CF gene, and your partner also carries a copy, one fourth of all your children will get both copies and suffer from cystic fibrosis, no matter how much zinc and vitamins you take.
That is, unless you take the sensible approach and abort the homozygotic pregnancies.
Jill,
The statistics are higher for black women. Why is that I wonder?
MK
hi Leah,
you must be very young … like MK says. When I was 19 or so, I got raked-over-the-coals by a peer for selecting my ‘world’ instead of what was actually there … even stuff I would block-out rather than face. Still not convinced (I was one stubborn SOB) my brother called it ‘navel gazing’.
I could say that you can be ecstatically happy in your virtual world, but I suspect that you will be killed for this stance, rather than be locked in a psyche ward (as is present practice). Future nurse shortage you see …. we (the future) can not have ‘useless eaters’! [[ relevant enough ]]
What do you mean by “two wrongs..” Jill
If you ever have to watch a loved die a slow death from a disease that could be researched (if not cured) using embryonic stem cells you might climb down from your moral high horse. If you already have then you are an even colder individual than I am imagining you to be.
Jill’s back! Hey Jill, I want to know how you respond to the post by Amanda at March 23, 2007 12:14 AM, the one where she showed that the nursing shortage is due to the shortage of nursing-educators, which in turn is a result of poor pay and high degree-requirements for educators. You know, the post that ends:
“Sorry Jill, hate to burst your bubble, but this particular shortage has absolutely NOTHING to do with lack of people – OR abortion.”
Response?
What do you mean by “two wrongs..” Jill
If you ever have to watch a loved die a slow death from a disease that could be researched (if not cured) using embryonic stem cells you might climb down from your moral high horse. If you already have then you are an even colder individual than I am imagining you to be.
From Ann Coulter’s book, Godless (page 192):
“Although there has been research on both adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells since the fifties, onlt adult stem-cell research has produced any cures- and lots of ’em. Adult stem cells have been used for decades to treat dozens of diseases, including Type 1 diabetes, liver disease, and spinal cord injuries. Currently, adult stem cells are used to treat more than eighty different diseases.
…………….
On page 192:
….By contrast, the embryonic stem-cell researchers have produced nothing. They have treated nothing. They have not even begun one human clinical trial. They’ve successfully treated a few rodents, but they keep running into two problems: First, the cells tend to be rejected by the immune system. Second, they tend to cause malignantcies called teratomas- meaning “monster tumors.”
The idea that embryonic stem cells are on the verge of curing anything is absurd. It’s possible embryonic stem cell research for find a cure for Alzheimer’s disease someday only in the sense that it is possible that a biologist’s toenail clippings could be used to find a cure for Alzheimer’s someday.”
Some factual information about stem cells:
http://fumento.com/sustemcell.html
hi SOMG,
please read the text ‘Zinc & Copper in Medicine’ eds Sarper and Karcioglu and then tell me these observations are nonsense. This is only one of the reasons why ‘orthodoxy’ in medical science … as the slang goes – ‘Sucks, BIG-TIME!’
SOMG –
I’ve pretty much come to expect that Jill’s only response to ANYTHING is “but you support killing babies”, or just deleting the post… and since that makes no sense in the context of the facts I presented, I wasn’t really expecting a reply, Im just happy she decided not to delete it (yet).
I posted that more in hopes that some of the other readers, while Im not asking them to change their views on abortion, may recognize that the nursing shortage is caused by specific and widely known factors having NOTHING to do with abortion, or even lack of interested people.
I also forgot to mention, as evidenced by Jill herself, that nursing has one of the highest burn out rates of any career, along side Child and Family Social Workers.
Jill claims that her reason for leaving the nursing profession was a controversy over abortion, but if she was truly passionate about nursing, she could have very easily (there is a shortage…afterall) been hired at a Catholic hospital which would appreciate and recognize her anti-abortion beliefs. The fact is (and Im not blaming her for this at all), nursing is a career that a lot of people just cant do for too long – so a lot of them switch career paths before getting to the masters level, or the level in which they could start educating future nurses. Since a lot of hospitals are government funded, nurses tend to get relatively good pensions. A lot of them leave the profession, just as Jill has, for things that make them happier but might pay less…like writing.
Sorry, Bethany, but Ann Coulter is not a scientific authority and you cannot expect to prove anything by quoting her.
Having said that, it’s also true that the value of embryonic stem cell work is BASIC science. By studying how they specialize in response to their environment we may learn something which will IN TURN lead to cures for degenerative diseases. But the basic science has to be developed first.
John, thank you for the book recommendation. In turn, I suggest you read any introductory genetics textbook. Especially the sections on expression of recessive phenotypes.
Jill–thanks for the source.
John–
I’m sorry, I have to repeat myself: you don’t know me. Yes, I’m young, but I am not stupid, ignorant, or na
hi Amanda,
maybe you can reflect on two different phenomenon:
(would appreciate your thoughts – as an RN)
Here are some of mine:
A) where does America now get the deficient spaces – ANSWER: from Canada and other (less-wealthy) countries. So, now Canada is short too. And where does she get nurses and specialist … Third World countries of course. So, in a big way we rob the world to supply our medical personnel shortfall. Everyone knows that $$$ solve all problems and give (the best) medicine, eh?
B) are we sicker (require medical intervention more)? … if so, why? ANSWER: Medicine is a turn-style industry … not interested in fixing/curing anyone …. only to get more $$$ [on the abortion-front the more complications the better – has ’em coming right back for more treatment, eh?]
This MAY indeed be sick but is it true?
Where’s Jill? Isn’t she going to respond to Amanda’s excellent posts? C’mon, Jill, you say you welcome opposition. But you’re afraid to acknowledge it when it wins? That’s cowardly. Here, I’ll help you, here’s something you might say: “Amanda, you are right, I was wrong to suggest that abortion causes or worsens the nursing shortage. It is a pretty silly hypothesis, come to think of it, which only a hard-core knee-jerk rtl like me would entertain.”
SOMG,
re. recessive phenotypes … is there any section on how such anomalies arise … besides being inherited? Are influences to the DNA fixed … or somehow ‘safe’ from having its structure influenced? what are the factors involved in maintaining genetic constancy, especially between generations ?
I have read to many texts that explain little … like anatomy texts explain different body parts, but really say little.
JOKE: A helicopter pilot was so fogged-in he couldn’t see where to land or even where he was. He came upon an office tower. So, he held up a sign saying: ‘Where am I?’ To which the fellow in the office held his own sign saying ‘You’re in a helicopter!’ The pilot turned his helicopter around and landed safely at a nearby airfield.
How he did it was a marvel. He said, ‘I knew exactly where I was. Only from Microsoft (headquarters in Seattle) could anyone give 100% accurate and totally useless information.’
John, you said:
Let me explain – the DNA molecule itself can be altered by nutrition and radiation (environmental factors: things so powerful that DNA strands are no5 just unwound but snipped into fragments … Robert O. Becker, ‘Cross Currents’ … likely why cell phones and leukemia happen!) (getting back to topic) CF, Downe’s and thousands of other genetic abnormalities exist because the mother was nutrient deficient (likely zinc). This kind of deficiendy causes all sorts of havock but, only a few are deep enough to alter genetic makeup.”
John, a LOT of genetic diseases are not the work of radiation or nutrition but just a mistake in the creation of new DNA. The enzyme that “proofreads” the new copy just makes a mistake and substitutes adenine for guanine. There are other diseases, like Cri-du-chat, that are based on dosage effects. Down syndrome is not a result of malnutrition; it is a result of both chromosome 21s being pulled to the same daughter cell during anaphase I of meiosis.
Bethany,
Seriously, Ann Coulter? You can get more accurate information on scientific facts from a second grader.
Leah,
for what do you want me to apologize … I never did call you stupid, or naive … just tried to explain what happened to me many decades ago…and hoped there were some parallels to help you. I do not happen to be too much longer here and it seems, like you think I somehow needed you to spit-in-my-face (to make sure that I understood you were impervious to suggestion).
I am well aware that she is not a scientific authority. Just because you do not like her does not mean she is wrong. All of her facts check out. You might want to check those facts before you say she is wrong just because she’s Ann Coulter.
The “potential of embryonic stem cells to possibly form every cell type” in the body is remarkable but is of minute clinical significance. The potential to form every cell type is a moot point, as long as a stem/progenitor cell is capable of forming the cell types required for particular injury of disease.
Furthermore, stem cells derived from adults have the same potential as numerous studies have supported. The umbilical cord, bone marrow stromal cells, fat, and the skin are among the many locations in the body that can supply a source of adult stem cells.
The serious problem with embryonic stem cells is actually due to the ability of the cells to quickly proliferate, a quality which is often touted as a quality that makes them so superior. But as obviously seen with weeds in a garden or cancer in the body, rapid growth is not always an enviable quality.
Rats injected with embryonic stem cells, in an animal model of Parkinson?s disease, showed a minor benefit of about 50%. However, the embryonic stem cells caused brain tumors in one-fifth of the rats which lead to their death.
Here are some links to check out:
Diabetes 1
http://www.researchmatters.harvard.edu/story.php?article_id=267
http://www.cellmedicine.com/news33.asp
http://www.cellmedicine.com/news63.asp
Liver disease
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-03/ohs-osd032703.php
http://brownback.senate.gov/OriginalDocs/cultureoflife/stemcellresearch/Adult%20Stem%20Cell%20Update%2006-04.pdf
Spinal cord injuries:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050920074831.htm
Here are some of the diseases that Adult Stem cells are helping:
Stem Cells Today
Stem cells are everywhere in the news today. Unfortunately, too much attention is put on the ethical debate over the use of embryonic stem cells in research today. AdultCells doesn?t involve itself in this controversial debate because it is unnecessary. Recent studies have shown that adult stem cells have been more successful in therapeutic trials than embryonic stem cells and more importantly, adult stem cells do not increase the risk of tumor growth.
Today there are over 70 diseases and disorders that are either cured or ameliorated by the use of stem cell therapy or transplants.1
Cancers
Acute Leukemias
Acute Biphenotypic Leukemia Acute Lymphoblast Leukemia (ALL)
Acute Myelogenous Leukemia (AML)
Acute Undifferentiated Leukemia
Chronic Leukemias
Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia (CLL)
Chronic Myelogenous Leukemia (CML)
Juvenile Chronic Myelogenous Leukemia (JCML)
Juvenile Myelomonocytic Leukemia (JMML)
Myelodysplastic Syndromes
Refractory Anemia (RA)
Refractory Anemia with Ringed Sideroblasts (RARS)
Refractory Anemia with Excess Blasts (RAEB)
Refractory Anemia with Excess Blasts in Transformation (RAEB-T)
Chronic Myelomonocytic Leukemia (CMML)
Stem Cell Disorders
Aplastic Anemia (Severe)
Fanconi Anemia
Paroxysmal Nocturnal Hemoglobinuria (PNH)
Pure Red Cell Aplasia
Myeloproliferative Disorders
Acute Myelofibrosis
Agnogenic Myeloid Metaplasia (myelofibrosis)
Polycythemia Vera
Essential Thrombocythemia
Lymphoproliferative Disorders
Non-Hodgkin’s Lymphoma (Burkitt?s Lymphoma)
Hodgkin’s Disease
Phagocyte Disorders
Chediak-Higashi Syndrome
Chronic Granulomatous Disease
Neutrophil Actin Deficiency
Reticular Dysgenesis
Other Inherited Disorders
Lesch-Nyhan Syndrome
Cartilage-Hair Hypoplasia
Glanzmann Thrombasthenia
Osteopetrosis
Adrenoleukodystrophy
Inherited Platelet Abnormalities
Amegakaryocytosis / Congenital Thrombocytopenia
Inherited Metabolic Disorders
Mucopolysaccharidoses (MPS)
Hurler’s Syndrome (MPS-IH)
Scheie Syndrome (MPS-IS)
Hunter’s Syndrome (MPS-II)
Sanfilippo Syndrome (MPS-III)
Morquio Syndrome (MPS-IV)
Maroteaux-Lamy Syndrome (MPS-VI)
Sly Syndrome, Beta-Glucuronidase Deficiency (MPS-VII)
Adrenoleukodystrophy
Mucolipidosis II (I-cell Disease)
Krabbe Disease
Gaucher’s Disease
Niemann-Pick Disease
Wolman Disease
Metachromatic Leukodystrophy
Histiocytic Disorders
Familial Erythrophagocytic Lymphohistiocytosis
Histiocytosis-X
Hemophagocytosis
Inherited Erythrocyte Abnormalities
Beta Thalassemia Major
Sickle Cell Disease
Inherited Immune System Disorders
Ataxia-Telangiectasia
Kostmann Syndrome
Leukocyte Adhesion Deficiency
DiGeorge Syndrome
Bare Lymphocyte Syndrome
Omenn’s Syndrome
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency (SCID)
SCID with Adenosine Deaminase Deficiency
Absence of T & B Cells SCID
Absence of T Cells, Normal B Cell SCID
Common Variable Immunodeficiency
Wiskott-Aldrich Syndrome
X-Linked Lymphoproliferative Disorder
Plasma Cell Disorders
Multiple Myeloma
Plasma Cell Leukemia
Waldenstrom’s Macroglobulinemia
Amyloidosis
Other Malignancies
Ewing Sarcoma
Neuroblastoma
Renal Cell Carcinoma
Retinoblastoma
1Autologous stem cell therapies or transplants may not always be successful in the treatment or amelioration of the above diseases and disorders.
(reference http://www.adultcells.com/html/diseases.html )
How many diseases are embryonic stem cells helping to cure? None.
Ah, MK, His man is back at it with the hell fire and brimstone technique again. I’ll be back later…I need to go repent.
I guess he completely missed the point that what I was trying to say is that your message reaches many more ears. If he TRULY wanted to convert people, he’d put it in a way that people can relate to. That, MK, is “love”… the message you try to give out. Not some facade that His man puts up to make himself appear righteous.
“I don’t want to be your friend.”
Oh boy, what a loss.
Just know I was personally offended that he called you “wishy-washy”. In my opinion, you’re the strongest fighter on here for your side. You make the best points without damning everyone for not seeing it your way. You don’t say “I know I’m right, and how I view things is right, because only my relationship with God is correct”, you say “These are the views I believe based on what I believe is right…I pray that you see what I see someday.”
Thank you, MK, you’re the one of the only one’s on here who’s really made me think…and I’m sure most of the other pro-choicers would agree.
Wishy-washy? His man, again you judge. You fail to see her effectiveness. We’ll see who turns whiter on judgment day.
Holy crap, I’m defending a pro-lifer!!
Hi Samantha,
what you say about genetic variation is a common thought … it seems that after some 3 million years of evolution that enzymes IMHO do not ‘happen to make mistakes’ but are so exact in repetition that the word should be ’cause errors’ in their proliferations… in fact the zinc deficiencies tend to cause ‘end-point mutations’ … don’t know quite what this means)
John, you wrote: “re. recessive phenotypes … is there any section on how such anomalies arise … besides being inherited? ”
You mean spontaneous mutation during replication? This is an extremely rare event. There’s a whole host of mechanisms that ensure genetic constancy–proofreading enzymes etc.
One important factor in the case of CF is that the mutant CF gene actually gives the organism that possesses it an evolutionary advantage–as long as the organism has only ONE copy of the gene. That evolutionary advantage insures that the gene remains present during evolution–it’s only when you have BOTH copies of the gene that you’re screwed.
The same is true of sickle-cell anaemia, which africans get. Having ONE copy of the mutant hemoglobin gene gives you extra resistance to malaria, and therefore, evolutionary advantage. Again, it’s when you get BOTH copies of the mutant gene that you suffer illness.
hi SOMG,
guess I’d best pack it in, eh? But you see, I am the result of these recessive anomalies … and so are hundreds (no thousands) of others. I have no problem at all with your elucidation … except for the use of the word ‘spontaneous’. How do you know this is rare … or that there is not a ‘trigger’ to shift DNA structure? Becker found that an electrical current applied in the micro-amp range could heal cancerous ulcer … what he called: re-dedifferentiation. Is there negative consequences to the proliferation of dish/receiver-type radiation emissions? There are few, if any, studies to track whether recessive-DNA aberration is as rare an event as you believe it to be.
SOMG, 11:51p: I’m flattered you hang on my every thought to the point you post a comment with a nasty word to get my attention. Tsk tsk. Slow day at the mill?
Amanda, 12:14a, and SOMG: A shortage of nursing instructors is just one reason for the shortage of nurses, and also hearkens back, in part, to abortion. I imagine that of the 45-50 million workers aborted in the last 34 years, some would have fulfilled their dreams of teaching nursing by now.
” I imagine that of the 45-50 million workers aborted in the last 34 years, some would have fulfilled their dreams of teaching nursing by now.”
Yes, because ALL of them would have become nurses. Give me a break. My boyfriend wanted to be a brain surgeon since high school. After one year in college being premed he changed his mind and is now going for business.
Hee hee–That’s a pretty feeble response, Jill. Didn’t you read what Amanda said: the limiting factor on the number of nurses trained is the number of places available in nursing schools, not the number of people applying for those places? That means if you brought the aborted babies back to life they’d all be turned away when they applied to nursing school–there wouldn’t be room for them. Or rather, some of them would get in, but each one who did would displace another applicant, so the number of nurses being trained would remain the same.
In order to solve this shortage, you need to increase the size of the nursing school classes, or open new nursing schools, not increase the size of the applicant population as you would do by bringing the aborted babies back to life.
Alyssa,
Wishy-washy?
I have been called many things in my life…
Wishy washy isn’t one of them.
I have a friend who calls me Tillie (short for Attilla the Hun) because of my opinionated personality.
Thank you for the compliments, tho I really wasn’t fishing. I was just hoping that if you guys let hisman know that kindness goes a long way…
Well, he means well.
And it is scripture after all.
The thing is we forget what it is like to be young, and open to new ideas, and fresh, and trying everything on for size…
Remember when you used to play dress up (if you did) and you just kept changing outfits? Sometimes you were a movie star, sometimes a mom,
sometimes a teacher…even a nun?
Well, I think youth is like that. Young adults need to try on different philosophies. It doesn’t make them stupid, or naive. It means that they are trying to find something that fits. I love you guys. You are our future. How awesome is it that this month you’re trying on the pro-life philosophy? And how hopeful to hear ALL of you talk about feeding the poor, and ending war and voting and …well, you know. It would be worse if you were all apathetic and just sat back and watched the world rot away.
Leah,
Please don’t be mad that I’m referring to your youth. I’m actually celebrating it. Believe me in 50 years the youth will be accusing you of being too set in your ways. Grow my little butterflies, grow.
mk
” I imagine that of the 45-50 million workers aborted in the last 34 years, some would have fulfilled their dreams of teaching nursing by now.”
Yes, because ALL of them would have become nurses. Give me a break. My boyfriend wanted to be a brain surgeon since high school. After one year in college being premed he changed his mind and is now going for business.
Note in Jill’s statement she did not say “all”…she said “some”.
and hey, Alyssa, about defending a pro-lifer, in the bigger picture you’re really just defending a sister.
Someone just told me a story about how in world war II,(or maybe world war I, whatever, the story is the same) on Christmas Eve, both sides came out an played football(softball? Basketball? somethin’)together until midnight when a shot was fired and they all went back to being enemies.
We may be on opposite sides of this war, (and it’s MAJOR war – lest I be accused of being touchy feely), but in the bigger scheme of things, I like you too.
Awwwww-group hug!
mk
Hee hee–That’s a pretty feeble response, Jill. Didn’t you read what Amanda said: the limiting factor on the number of nurses trained is the number of places available in nursing schools, not the number of people applying for those places? That means if you brought the aborted babies back to life they’d all be turned away when they applied to nursing school–there wouldn’t be room for them. Or rather, some of them would get in, but each one who did would displace another applicant, so the number of nurses being trained would remain the same.
Has it occured to you that with 35-45 million more people on earth, there most likely would be more nursing schools as well?
No, Bethany, the number of nursing schools is determined by investment, not population.
Hey, all.
Sorry for spazzing earlier, John. I happen to be surrounded by people who underestimate youth and assume that young people all hae their heads in the clouds. Automatically when I hear “you must be young” I assume you mean it as a bad thing. Sorry. *I* Shouldn’t be making assumptions.
Maybe you meant it negatively, maybe you meant it positively, and perhaps in a neutral context. I would just like to have it made clear that young people–least of all myself–are not so stupid as people tend to think. And, yes, I do resent being accused of living in a “virtual world”. I like my iPod. But I talk to people as well.
Anyhow, I have had a nice, relaxing evening and I am feeling mature enough to apologize for acting like the apocalypse was upon us. Kudos for me …
Later!
Leah,
Kudos for me …
I second that…ya young whippersnapper!
MK
Actually Bethany, considering the vast majority of nursing training takes place in state colleges and government funded hospitals, an extra 45 million people would actually DECREASE the amount of nursing schools, because the available funding would be eaten by the increased demand for social services such as welfare, food stamps, and grade school education.
And Jill – the amount of nursing educators is VERY disproprtionate to the number of nurses. So even if “some” of those 45 million became nurses, the percentage of them that went on to become nurse educators would end up cancelling out the gain, as there would also be more nursing STUDENTS. The root cause of this is actually the restrictive cost of higher education and cost of living in general. A few generations ago, it was realistic for one spouse to be the bread winner, allowing another to go back to school. Now, however, unless one spouse is making a LOT of money, most families require a dual income. This makes it impossible for a lot of nurses to go back for their masters degrees.
So lets just imagine for a second that Jill is right, and 1 million of the 45 million wanted to become nurses. Only 7.4% of US nurses ever earn a Masters Degree. So we still have a problem Jill. So several thousand students wanting to become nurses would get rejection letters – just like they are now.
According to the National League for Nursing (NLN):
“The education community needs to create more innovative and efficient educational pathways to BSN and graduate nursing education, and needs to provide more incentives for faculty recruitment”
– Nursing Affairs, 11/8/2006
So, as I said, and I will say again, abortion or no abortion, 45 million other Americans or not – the nursing shortage exists.
John a point mutation is a mutation in which a single base pair is substituted by another base pair. This may or may not affect the amino acid which is coded for. I would assume that an end point mutation would refer to a change in the stop codon, which would lead to a gene’s continuing to be transcribed rather than stopping where it should, resulting in a different protein that does a different job…you get the idea.
Amanda:
You said: “The true sign of a good person, and a good Christian, is one who sees through petty differences in opinion or politics and looks for kindness and a good heart.”
My Answer: Now where is that definition of a good person found? Ralph Waldo Emerson or some false prophet, new age, lie spewing guru, maybe? Is that definiton of a “good” Christian found in the Bible, if so where or, is that your own construct? I know the Bible says this: The fruits of the Spirit are, LOVE, (agape love, – loving others more than yourself, i.e., telling them the truth despite them hating you back) JOY, (the joy of the Lord, quiet confidence, is my strength, not the giddiness of the world) PEACE, (peace with God who was your enemy, not the world’s peace which says cave to the ways of the world) PATIENCE, (not simply waiting without complaint but doing good while waiting for the Lord’s return), KINDNESS, (the kindness that tells you the truth so that you don’t go to hell and not the Hallmark type of feel good, sentimental kindness that results in nothing), GOODNESS, (God’s righteousness imparted to us via His death on the cross and not our own self-righteousness by amassing some record of good deeds, you know meetings) FAITHFULNESS, (doing what you say you’re going to do), GENTLENESS (not to be confused with weakness but rather humility in accepting who you are in relation to a Holy God) and SELF-CONTROL (controlling your sexual urges for example so that you wouldn’t even need to have an abortion). By the way, no person on earth except Jesus has demonstrated all of these qualites 100% of the time, not even your so-called “good” Christians. They simply don’t exist.
The Bible says that above all else, “the human heart is exceedingly deceitful”. The Bible says, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. The Bible says, “only God is good”. And I imagine you would do the same feel good meetings with murderers on death row, thieves, etc., to try to reduce the numbers of murders and thefts, and just let them go? You must believe that abortion is a choice and not murder because somehow I don’t think you would conduct such perverted meetings with murderers and theives. However, you fail to see the treachery, hate, self-absorption, murderousness, deception and rebellion of those who would hold that abortion is a choice and/or would have an abortion. Totally amazing.
You said this about me: “People like “Hisman”, on the other hand, seem to always be looking for an excuse to attack, belittle, berate, and judge. This accomplishes NOTHING. I find it ironic that he speaks so highly of Christ and the influence Christ has on his life – when Christ himself would have never used those methods to spread his word. “HisMan”‘s behaviors anger those who disagree, and shed a negative light on those who agree but are trying to get the message across in a more positive manner.”
Really? Have you ever read one of Paul’s or Peter’s or James’ Epistles? Did Christ call Peter (pillar of the church) satan? Peter repented. Did Paul confront Peter because of his hyprocrisy? Peter repented again. Did Jesus call the Pharisees, brood of vipers? Some were converted, some weren’t. What did He say about Judas? He killed himself. And what did He call the moneychangers in the Temple? And how about the rich young ruler? It says He wept when he heard Jesus’ answer to his question. And the parapble of the virgins? Their only mistake was to not keep their oil lamps burning. And why did He not even visit some cities during His ministry which He could have easily done – something about shaking the dust off His feet and Saddam and Gommorah being better off? What about the unprofitable servant who’s only action was to bury the seed money given to him rather than invest it…and outer darkness? Did He ever use the term “sons of hell”? And what did He say would happen to people who hurt children or teach them to sin (you know teaching young people about condoms and that abortion was a choice). Ever heard of a millstone? Now there’s a popular concept.
There’s no examples of Christ doing what you’re doing trying to bring people together by compromising the truth. No, He said He came to bring a sword ,i.e., place brother against brother, son against father, etc. A normal result of speaking the truth. Not desired, but when you don’t compromise the truth , one should expect to get your type of response. Did he not say that the word of God is the Sword of the Spirit and a two edge sword at that? And He said not for believers to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Now there’s an Oprah moment.
Was He not called the “Lamb of God” and “Lion of Judah”?
And Amanda: Why did they kill this lovely man named Jesus? Because He was a non-confrontive, sissified, compromiser, who winked His eye at sin? Or because He tried to tell the world as Rodney Perterson and you would ask, “Can’t we all just get along”? No, it’s because He told the truth in love which is by definition an act of love in itself. And it wasn’t even Him doing His own will for he said, “I can only do the will of my Father who is in Heaven”.
Here’s my suggestion: Open the Book at Genesis and read through to Revelation. This is easily done in a year. Then do it again, then do it again and as many times as God gives you breath.
Be honest, ask questions, deal with the many texts. Don’t compromise. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, however, this cannot be done apart from our willingness to be taught.
Problem is, almost none of you has done this for yourselves and you live your lives on cliches and false assumptions and are therefore, easily deceived.
None of us is going to impress God by what we do. We can only obey what He commands. If you see my speaking the truth as offensice, sorry, the truth has a way of doing that, especially if you refuse to beleive it and only want to hold on to your own, self righteouness.
Someone said in a previous post that I will be white at the judgement. Yes, that’s true, whiter than snow, without spot or blemish, the Bride of Christ, not for what I have done but for what He has done for me.
And finally, you said: “It’s a shame for everyone…because with people like him around – not much can be done constructively by either side working together”. OK, I’ll just give up and let another 50,000,000 babies be murdered, let’s say in 20 years and not 34. Isn’t that why we have legal abortion in the first place, because Christians caved? Give me your best shot because I WILL NEVER GIVE UP UNTIL LEGAL ABORTION IS ANNHILATED. Good thing the abolitionists didn’t think like you.