Post-partum/post-abortion depression

Today in Washington there will be a hearing in the House Subcommittee on Health on post-partum depression.
post-abortion depression helpIL Democrat Rep. Bobby Rush will introduce noncontroversial legislation that directs the National Institutes of Health to expand research into post-partum depression and the Dept. of Health & Human Services to make grants for services for women with post-partum depression and their families.
Now wouldn’t common sense dictate that if there is such a malady as post-partum depression there must be such a malady as post-abortion depression?
Yet post-abortion depression goes widely unrecognized – even disparaged – and untreated.
Realizing the lack of information available on post-abortion depression, Republicans have chosen to use their opportunity today to call witnesses to discuss post-abortion depression. Bravo….


They will be Michaelene Fredenburg and Dr. Priscilla Coleman. Michaelene will speak as a post-abortive woman whose mental health was severely impacted afterward. Dr. Coleman of Bowling Green State University will give testimony on the existing research regarding post-abortion depression.
Republicans will also introduce the Post-Abortion Depression Research and Care Act. This bill provides $15 million to the NIH to research the emotional impact of abortion on women and creates a $1.5 million grant program to fund the development of treatment programs for women who suffer from post-abortion depression.
Are there pro-aborts who believe post-partum depression exists but not post-abortion depression? Would you even battle research into post-abortion depression? If so, why?

403 thoughts on “Post-partum/post-abortion depression”

  1. Sure, it exists, just like post partem depression. And also like post partem depression, it doesn’t affect every single woman.

  2. Depression is not real, it is just Xenu trying to trick you. I know the history of mental illness, you don’t.
    Don’t be a glib Matt….I mean Jill

  3. That was just me making a joke, I was looking for an opportunity to bring out my Tom Cruise material. :-)

  4. Mmmm, I think you are wrong again Heather. And yes he/she does like babies. We’re not always debating about babies, we’re debating about feti. There is a differemce. (lol, I know Cam’s sex…hahaha and you dont)

  5. And actually now the thread is about depression, which I know alot about actually.

  6. Jill,
    I was recently at a “feminist” blog disussing this issue. They called me some of the most vile, disgusting things, mocked my religon and made fun of aborted babies. I was quickly banned even though I was completely respectful. I now have little or no respect for the other side at all.

  7. What about people who are acutally (adults) batteling clinical/major depression now? Why are y’all not screaming for research on those cases as well?

  8. Jasper:
    So you are telling me that because of one pro-choice blog who’s members got a bit grouchy, you’ve lost respect for the whole pro-choice movement?

  9. Hey Jasper, I would never do that to you. I like hearing VALID arguments from pro-lifers as long as the argument doesnt involve God or religion.

  10. Stop post-abortion depression? Stop calling the women who have them selfish baby-killing whores then! Simple as that.

  11. jasper, Could you imagine being a post-abortive woman and going to this bunch for help? No wonder those women complain about the choice side. They have proven themselves.

  12. sweet! it finally worked. and in all fairness, i just have one question… why is it ok to legislate issues of personal morality? realistically it just doesnt make sense. im not going to get into my personal views on abortion (mostly because theyre so confusing i dont think i understand them) but its like if we legislated monogamy because the ten commandments say “thou shalt not commit adultery”… its just unamerican and violates some of the precepts this nation was founded on.

  13. “jasper, Could you imagine being a post-abortive woman and going to this bunch for help? No wonder those women complain about the choice side. They have proven themselves.”
    —————————————-
    What is that supposed to mean exactly?

  14. Umm, no. They say terminating a pregnancy, you are the ones who say baby killer and throw pictures of aborted fetuses at us.

  15. Hi Heather,
    How the little baby doing?
    Kim said:
    “So you are telling me that because of one pro-choice blog who’s members got a bit grouchy, you’ve lost respect for the whole pro-choice movement?”
    No, it’s not just the blog. I think their suffering from (MCS) misplaced compassion syndrome (from HisMan or Jill I think), but their viscousness leads me to believe that they know that their in the wrong.

  16. I would much rather see research money go toward post-partum depression, as well, and other forms of proven depression. I wouldn’t mind having a certain amount of money, however, go toward proving or disproving the existence of post abortion depression. Personally, if depression occurs, I am wont to think that it’s caused by people in the pro-life movement telling people who’ve aborted that they are evil for having done so, and that they SHOULD feel bad. These people don’t let those who’ve aborted move on. They keep dragging them back to the horrifying time of having been pregnant and scared and MAKE the be depressed. No wonder these pro-lifers think there’s a link. They force a lot of the links. I’m not saying that it’s not impossible for a woman to feel depression of her own accord, but I think the majority of the cases occur from pro-lifers forcing guilt upon an individual.

  17. You guys say you are pro woman??? I doubt that. Why did abortionist Brian L. Finkle molest and rape his patients for YEARS before he was busted? Because he knew that he would get away with it. Where were NARAL and NOW when these women were begging for assistance?

  18. blaming one persons actions on a whole political movement is like me saying youre a member of the Westboro Baptist Church because you are pro life… fallacious and unneccesarily insulting.

  19. “jasper, Could you imagine being a post-abortive woman and going to this bunch for help? No wonder those women complain about the choice side. They have proven themselves”
    you’re exactly right Heather. My church reaches out to woman in all kinds of circumstances (including post abort), they’re always their to help….. but their side will lead them to the abortion mill and send them on their way

  20. Have any of you pro-choice people ever gone to sites and actually read about what abortionists have to say about women?[Behind our backs,of course] Most of them HATE us !!!!

  21. What he did was wrong, Heather. We don’t condone that. The vast majority of pro-choicers advocate any type of counseling that a post-abortive woman may need. Whether or not she needs it because of her own actions or the influence of pro-lifers telling her she is evil for her actions is the question. I, as a pro-choicer, would always be open to any woman after an abortion to come to me and talk. I wouldn’t berate her for her feelings OR actions. Nor would I tell her that her actions were evil, selfish, or wrong.

  22. jasper, thats just not true, theres no push (at least at planned parenthood) to have abortions. i took my sister there to look at options after she was raped (then found out it was a false negative on the pregnancy test) and all i can say is while i wasnt privy to most of the conversations they presented all the options and just let her choose. they were polite, respectful, and didnt push any agenda.

  23. Heather did you know that most rapes go un-reported becuase women feel guilty about it, like it’s their fault (& it isnt). I am not suprised that these women did not report him. I mean think about it for a second, they were seeing a doctor. Who would believe me over him? is what they’re thinking in their minds.
    Think.

  24. Abortionist Edward Allred referrs to his patients as “tramps” and “dogs” on a regular basis. Again I ask, where are NARAL and NOW? Is this acceptable?

  25. Mike said:
    they were polite, respectful, and didnt push any agenda
    Mike, the overwhelming number of abortions are elective. If their so respectful, then they shouldn’t have any trouble showing woman the ultra-sound. (which they are totally against.)

  26. heather, i dont agree at all. i think youre misguided and allow yourself to be influenced by any propaganda you encounter. dont. thats no way to live your life. sit back, look at why people are saying what theyre saying, check their sources, and discount them if they dont have any. better yet, read the constitution, and all the amendments, ask someone for help if you need it to understand (not calling you stupid, its just 1700’s lawyerese and i have a hard time with it) and make your own decisions about whether or not a fetus is legally eligible for personhood. if not, and youre still pro life, see if you think it is a protectable interest of the state. then read some AMA medical texts on pregnancy and fetal development, actually understand the various stages of pregnancy, and what the fetus is in each. its important to form your own opinions on issues this complex, heated, and saturated with propaganda from all sides. read roe v wade, doe v wade and roe v casey. all important decisions, long and boring yes, but theres a reason the supreme court justices made it to where they are… they are the most knowledgeable people in this nation when it comes to constitutional law.
    thanks for reading all that. i know it was a hellishly long post.

  27. Alyssa, I don’t call women whores or baby killers. I know of plenty of people that do. Trust me,they aren’t picketing clinics either. This is their personal opinion. A lot of people are afraid to speak out against abortion. They will voice their disgust in private though. They are allowed to think what they want.

  28. “Abortionist Edward Allred referrs to his patients as “tramps” and “dogs” on a regular basis. Again I ask, where are NARAL and NOW? Is this acceptable?”
    again, im going to say this. that was ONE deranged individual. “rev” Phelps is pro life, therefore you agree that homosexuality is the reason american soldiers are dying and that everyone who lives in this country is condemned to hell.
    “Mike, the overwhelming number of abortions are elective. If their so respectful, then they shouldn’t have any trouble showing woman the ultra-sound. (which they are totally against.)”
    jasper, im going to say again, im neither pro choice or pro life, but in terms of strict legality it is unconstitutional for any adult of sound mind to undergo a medical procedure against their will, you cannot legally make anyone look at, or read anything, and despite it being wrong on that level, places like planned parenthood hold choice above all else, and let a woman make her own decision, not trying to pressure her in any way, this being an obvious attempt to push them away from abortion.

  29. Heather, I never said you were one of the many that refers to women as whores or baby killers. But you do seem to have an agenda to insist that people who get abortions “should feel guilty and bad for what they did”, which definitely can lead to depression (you telling them this can lead to it, not the actions themselves). But here you are, yelling at Hal about what he and his wife decided to do together to better their family. That’s trying to force guilt upon him. They made the choice that was best for them. I respect their decision. You did tell him that he should be feeling guilty, which IS the problem. You may not be calling him names, but you are trying to force undue guilt upon him and his wife, which is something that I fight wholeheartedly.

  30. heather, what isnt the case? did you even read that post?
    im saying review FACTS not others opinions, then make your decisions.

  31. Mike,
    Are you telling me Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts don’t know the law. Theres nothing in the constition that implies that it is ok to abort babies. (Death by Privacy is a long reach). Read the Blackmun papers, ..they pulled this out of thin air.

  32. Heather, you’re right about one thing:”They will voice their disgust in private though. They are allowed to think what they want.”
    We’re allowed to think what we want. And we don’t believe that abortion is murder, while you do. You pawn it off as fact. It’s an opinion. We think what we want because we’re allowed to. Amen.

  33. jasper, when did i say anything remotely like that? i said that the supreme court is the best and brightest when it comes to constitutional law… quite the opposite of what you seem to be trying to imply came from my mouth.

  34. Abortionists prey on patients because of shame. I don’t know of too many women that are proud of their abortions. So, if an abortionist molests his patients, most women will keep it quiet.Brian Finkle even got a few of them to have consensual sex with him. He referred to himself as ‘The King of the Pelvis.’Now he’s in prison for 35 years. Google his name. I hope you do.

  35. Abortion is not murder. Murders are illegal in every state. It is a killing. Not all killings are illegal. Look at self defense, it is a killing, but is not illegal either.

  36. “and let a woman make her own decision, not trying to pressure her in any way, this being an obvious attempt to push them away from abortion.”
    yes, they have the choice not to sleep with men they don’t intend to have a baby with. Separating sex from responsibilty is why this culture is so corrupt.

  37. Once again, Not all abortionists “prey” on their victims. That’s like saying all pediatricians are molesting their patients. Yes it happens, and it is horrible. Not all people are evil like you think they are.

  38. Heather, again, we HATE what Finkle did to those women. He DID prey on their vulnerabilities. Unwanted and unplanned pregnancy must be the most terrifying thing EVER. He is wrong to take advantage of them in that condition. Of COURSE they wanted to keep their abortions under the radar, people like YOU want to make them feel guilty about them!! I know most women would keep the abortion secret just so they could avoid scathing remarks and crude remarks about their characters from people who want to make them feel bad for a choice that in all likelihood was the best one they could make.

  39. yes, they have the choice not to sleep with men they don’t intend to have a baby with. Separating sex from responsibilty is why this culture is so corrupt.
    _______________________________
    Jasper, sex is not a consent to pregnancy, even in marriage. Sorry. My mother had sex with my father and didnt intend to have a baby with him.

  40. It’s easy to separate sex from responsibility if you’re a man. It’s ok to make women take the brunt of it, right? Sick.

  41. Finkle called his abortion clinic ‘The vaginal vault.’ He bragged to fellow inmates about how much fun he had working in the abortion industry. He told one inmate about how easy it was to receive b—-[slang for oral sex] from women in need of abortions. He stated, “Those tramps will do anything.”

  42. midnite678
    I would argue that Abortion is murder.
    “to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously”

  43. “yes, they have the choice not to sleep with men they don’t intend to have a baby with. Separating sex from responsibilty is why this culture is so corrupt.”
    youre making sex a scapegoat issue. our culture isnt corrupt. the problem with america is the same thing that make it great, it is a massively diverse society, without uniform culture or cultural norms, so everyone perceives everything different from what they believe as amoral. america is corrupt because it is human nauture to foster corruption. that is the one universal in humanity other than sex. talk to a muslim person or a hassidic jew, and theyll tell you that almost everything christians do is morally bankrupt or fundamentally misguided. who are you to say who is right or wrong? only god can judge.

  44. Cam, no, I’m not opposed to research for post-partum mothers OR post-abort woman.

  45. heather, you are flogging this one misguided, demented individual’s terrible misdeeds to death like it has something to do with the issue. in my opinion, he has nothing to do with the pro choice movement any more that Mao Tse Tung did. drop it. most pro choicers are acting out of what they believe to be the best interests of women, and i dont see anything wrong with their intentions.

  46. Hey Jasper,
    What about men that “abort” their children like my father did to me? HUH? He found out my mother was pregnant and walked away never to be heard from again UNTIL I contacted him three years ago.

  47. Another young woman posted on a site about abortionist Laurence Reich. The woman said that Dr. Reich had just finished her abortion procedure. She said that she was still on the operating table with her feet in the stirrups.She remembered feeling uncomfortable when Dr. Reich leaned over and invited her to lunch. The woman was still spread eagle and thought, EEEEEWWWWWW! I have just been violated!!Google his name too.

  48. Mike said:
    “the problem with america is the same thing that make it great, it is a massively diverse society, without uniform culture or cultural norms, so everyone perceives everything different from what they believe as amoral”
    No Mike that is not correct, simply having a diverse society does not make it great, it is a commoness in our beliefs and ideas. And morality had alot to do with it.

  49. Personally, I’m grateful for people like Mike who would support my decision either way if an unplanned pregnancy occurred. I have no respect for people who think it’s my obligation to restrict my whole life for 3/4 of a year to please the guilt-distributing masses. I refuse to feel guilty for something that in my subjective viewpoint is not and has not ever been murder. In the very closest approximation, it’s more eviction of a tenant that overstays its welcome and infringes on the property more than it is allowed by the landlady. The fact that it dies as a result of eviction is irrelevant.

  50. Once again Heather, NOT ALL abortion doctors are going to do this. There are some sick people in the world, but not all are evil.

  51. It may be true about what this one individual did. We LOATHE him for his actions and words. But he is not indicative of the whole pro-choice movement and never will be. We support sexual and reproductive empowerment for all women, whether it be keeping or terminating a pregnancy. The support exists for both choices on our side.

  52. heather, it may be true, but it is not a universal truth. lets say that because i am catholic, and because i have been in jail, that all catholics have been in jail, or everyone in jail is catholic. that is no less ridiculous than what you are doing.

  53. Alyssa said: “I have no respect for people who think it’s my obligation to restrict my whole life for 3/4 of a year to please the guilt-distributing masses.”
    It’s all about you, isn’t it Alyssa?

  54. “No Mike that is not correct, simply having a diverse society does not make it great, it is a commoness in our beliefs and ideas. And morality had alot to do with it.”
    a diverse society enables america to do many things other nations simply cant. we have more cultural breadth than any other nation i know about with the possible exception of england, and only really in london. but in all actuality, there is no shared american morality. even christian white americans, which many think of as the “real” americans disagree on almost every political and social issue (like abortion or same sex marriage) to a degree where it is blatantly obvious that there is little common ground. to fail to admit that is simply fallacious.

  55. Heather did I say I loved abortion doctors? No, I did not. I am not putting words in your mouth, so dont put words in my mouth. I wish that abortions happened less, but unill people can be better educated in Birth control and sex, it is something that the public will have to deal with. Not to mention, it is still legal, and it is the woman in questions choice, not yours.

  56. “but in all actuality, there is no shared american morality”, yes, there sure is Mike.

  57. “Or saying that all Baptists hate the troops just because Fred Phelps does.”
    fred phelps isnt a baptist any more than osama bin laden is. frankly im suprised the real baptist church allows him to even use the name. if he called himself catholic i would make a career out of informing people that we neither sanction his actions nor hold any affiliation to him. hes a deranged idiot who corrupts the beautiful, loving verses laid down by our lord and saviour into hateful vile rants designed to tear society apart and breed hate for your neighbor. my god is a loving god, apparently he isnt worshipping the same one.

  58. Many former abortion clinic nurses testified about abortionists making inappropriate comments about patients. One nurse said that the abortionist would always make comments about the women’s sexy legs. Another stated “If the woman was attractive, he would find a way to be alone with her.” Yet another said that in closed quarters,the abortionist always called the patients s—-.

  59. ‘”but in all actuality, there is no shared american morality”, yes, there sure is Mike.’
    and what would that be? surely not pro choice or pro life, for or against homosexual unions, pro peace or pro war, for or against social welfare programs, religion or any other issue i can think of.

  60. Heather my god, drop it! Not all doctors are like that. GROW UP. Its like me saying all pediatricians are child molesters that try to be alone with the little children to have “their way with them”. Seriously, you are being ignorant and ridiculous at the moment.

  61. I actually have no idea why Phelps chooses to call his church a Baptist church. But I’m sure all Baptists really hate that he put so much unwarranted hatred upon the rest of them.

  62. im done with heather until she raises a valid point about the issue rather than holding up pictures of sinful misogynists.
    thank you for actually debating points instead of people, jasper.

  63. i think he was raised baptist and adopts their service and some of their sacraments, or whatever you protestant heretics call them ;). and somehow he thinks that makes him a baptist.

  64. It’s more about me than it will ever be about you, Jasper. You’ll never have to put your life and livelihood on the line for ANYTHING other than yourself. So don’t be so quick to judge. I fully intend on sacrificing myself for another being someday, but only when I am ready, not when YOU or any other judgmental man thinks I’m ready. Being able to conceive is not a license for forced motherhood. It’s a perversion of motherhood. Forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy undermines the true beauty of a woman choosing to sacrifice herself for nine months for a child. Forced “blessings” aren’t blessings at all.

  65. Have you seen the documentary “The Most Hated Family in America” from the BBC? Phelps is one hateful SOB.

  66. alyssa, you raise a good point… one of the things i find most abberant about america is how we treat women in general, but specifically when theyre pregnant. my mom basically lost her job for getting pregnant when i… well… happened, and as a result we got stuck back on welfare by the time i was born. do people really care so much about profits that theyre willing to fire women for providing a neccesary function to the continuation of society? really… a few months maternity leave as a government mandate is all i ask.

  67. I give up on you Heather you are rambling about shit that doesnt matter, And by the way did you know that saddam hussein, timothy mcveigh, osama bin laden and stalin were pro life?
    How does that make you feel? I wouldnt want them agreeing with anything I thought.

  68. The ugly truth that there are a handful of abortion docs out there that rape women and call them whores. Just like there are a handful of investment bankers that will take your money and you’ll never see them again. And a handful of policemen out there that will beat the hell out of you for no good reason. This doesn’t mean that they’re all bad.

  69. “And a handful of policemen out there that will beat the hell out of you for no good reason.”
    i take issue to that statement… theres more than a handful.
    seriously, if you already have me cuffed, and i wasnt doing anything violent (i was actually passed out in the middle of someones front lawn) why knock me over when you tell me to stand up, and why kick me until i got up?

  70. Heather I dont care to run their names through google. give it a damn rest, you’re quite obnoxious, you know that? I wish I could ramble on about shit that doesnt matter all the time too

  71. “Forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy undermines the true beauty of a woman choosing to sacrifice herself for nine months for a child”
    I’m not forcing you. If you chose to have sex with a man, you may get pregnant. And if you get pregnant, thats a blessing, I didn’t force it on you at all. You made that choice.

  72. jasper, do you advocate legislation against homosexuality (not the marriage) or premarital sex?

  73. Oh, and Jasper? When I said “my, me, I”, I was using myself as an example of a woman. I don’t think any woman, including myself, should be forced to undergo a pregnancy.

  74. “jasper, do you advocate legislation against homosexuality (not the marriage) or premarital sex?”
    No, and this has nothing to do with killing babies.

  75. Jasper, it might be more of a blessing if pregnancy only lasted a week and didn’t jeopardize a woman’s life or career. I again assert that you will never be in a position where your life or livelihood will ever be threatened by another being using your body to survive. But forcing someone to endure something for nine months because of one LEGAL act is disgusting and wrong. Abortion is more comparable to eviction, not murder. You’re allowed to evict a tenant that isn’t paying on time and is jeopardizing your livelihood, the same with a fetus. ESPECIALLY if it’s using personal resources.

  76. “I don’t think any woman, including myself, should be forced to undergo a pregnancy.”
    I don’t either, but if you sleep with a man, you chose to possibly be pregrant. You were not forced.

  77. Heather I am trying to have a civilized adult conversation with you. and you are rambling worse than my five year old cousin. Grow up and then I’ll talk to you.
    Jasper, once again, Sex = a consent to pregnancy. It is a consent to sex and that is it. You know a woman can remove her consent from sex at any time and if the man doesnt stop it is considered rape.

  78. Abortionist Ivan Namihas impregnated 2 of his abortion patients. He was investigated by Prime time in 1993. His patients said that he rarely wore gloves. Another woman said that Namihas stated ” I want you to masturbate for me.” “I’ll tell you if you have done it correctly.” In addition to that, he molested several patients. Does anyone see a pattern?

  79. You’re right, I’m not forced to sleep with a man. Neither am I forced to gestate while men can sit back and watch me suffer for an act that is equally shared by both men and women. If men and women are to be truly equal, women have to have the opportunity to remain nulliparous. When a fetus lives off of your blood supply and your career/life, you can comment. It’s easy for men to be pro-life. They’ll never be directly affected.

  80. “Jasper, it might be more of a blessing if pregnancy only lasted a week and didn’t jeopardize a woman’s life or career”
    again, you’re think about yourself and not the baby you brought into the world.
    “Abortion is more comparable to eviction, not murder. You’re allowed to evict a tenant that isn’t paying on time and is jeopardizing your livelihood, the same with a fetus. ESPECIALLY if it’s using personal resources.”
    but it the case of pregnancy, you forced the tenant to live within your body, it wasn’t his choice and on that basis, you have no right to kill him.

  81. alyssa, at least according to genesis, the womans pain of pregnancy and childbirth arent a blessing, they are gods punishment/curse for eves original sin.

  82. Heather –
    You GO girl!
    Now, let me ask all the pro-choicers a question. Why is it okay for you guys to bring up abortion clinic bombers, but we can’t point out the bad apples on your side?
    See, this is called being a hypocrite.
    Or, are you afraid we will expose more victims from abortionist than you have for clinic bombers.

  83. Jasper when you grow a uterus, you can have a say so in abortions. Until then, your vote in null and void. Sorry

  84. Like I said, Jasper, even though I may have sex, I didn’t force the embryo to implant in my womb. That happens all on its own. Fine and good. It may have a right to live in your opinion. Even better. So take it out of my body alive and allow it to live if it wants (not that it can “want” anything at these early stages). Whether or not it does is irrelevant, because at that point, as two “human beings”, both I and the embryo have equal rights.

  85. Valerie, it’s fine for you guys to bring up the names of bad people on “our side”. Just don’t say that the whole prochoice movement is like them, much as I don’t believe you or Heather are anything like those clinic bombers at all.

  86. Valerie, have you ever had a CLOSE family friend die from an abortion clinic bombing? I have when Rudolph bombed the one in B’ham. The cop that was working was my mother’s partner & I grew up calling Uncle. He was trying to protect women from the pro-life people that stand outside that clinic and yell “whore or slut” at them. Not to mention they throw shit at these women. Do NOT bring that up me.

  87. “Now, let me ask all the pro-choicers a question. Why is it okay for you guys to bring up abortion clinic bombers, but we can’t point out the bad apples on your side?”
    who said that?
    though there is one fundamental difference. these people heather keeps upchucking all over this debate are just twisted individuals that happen to perform abortions. abortion clinic bombers are pro life extremists who take pro life doctrine to the extreme of murdering people. if you wanted a comparable pro choice extremist, find someone who kills or assaults pro lifers picketing PP’s. im aware there have been instances of this.

  88. Alyssa-
    You seem to be missing the point that pro-life men are protecting the soon to be slaughtered child. Your statement that claims they have no right to this opinon is akin to me bashing a woman from New York working to prevent suffering in Asia.
    Our personal experiance does not disallow us the right to stand up for injustice.

  89. Valerie,
    I have only seen clinic bombers brought up a couple of times in all the time I’ve spent on this site. The only time it’s been brought up is when someone else rambles on about abortion doctors.
    On the other hand, Heather here is fixated on these bad apples and brings them up at least once a week.

  90. He was trying to make a living while protecting women who have rights. Have I said that any of you are like bombers? No, I have not. And Heather is making it out like ALL abortion doctors rape and molest their patients, and that is not true.

  91. “Like I said, Jasper, even though I may have sex, I didn’t force the embryo to implant in my womb. That happens all on its own. Fine and good. It may have a right to live in your opinion. Even better. So take it out of my body alive and allow it to live if it wants”
    Alyssa, see how silly and cruel you’re sounding now? You want sex without responsibilty.

  92. Mike- Indeed there have been several instances of pro-choice violence. I believe the number is in the thousands.
    Of course this takes into account “pro-choice” boyfriends attacking their girlfriends for making the “wrong” choice. I’m not sure of the numbers involving pro-choice violence against protesters, but I’m sure we could figure it out with a bit of digging.
    Regardless, violence of this sort should never be accepted.

  93. Alyssa –
    “I didn’t force the embryo to implant in my womb. That happens all on its own. ”
    How can something that is not alive do anything on their own accord? or, it is alive but not worthy of life? I always get that confused.
    “Just don’t say that the whole prochoice movement is like them, much as I don’t believe you or Heather are anything like those clinic bombers at all.”
    Then stop saying all us pro-lifers call everyone whores and sluts. Guess what? that not true either. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

  94. “Alyssa, see how silly and cruel you’re sounding now? You want sex without responsibilty.”
    Jasper,
    Men have sex without responsibility, period.

  95. Lauren, again, read the post I made after that. They can fight for its right to live all they want…just take it out of a woman’s body if she doesn’t want it there and help it to live if you can. Don’t force a woman to endure nine months as a “life-support machine”. If it dies, it’s regrettable, but at least both fetus/embryo and woman are given the same rights. Neither infringes upon another, even though one might need the other to live.

  96. I have an idea. Pro-choicers will try not to claim that all lifers are trying to blow up abortion clinics if you stop claiming that all doctors who perform abortions are disgusting perverts. I met a very very sweet woman who gave me a gynocological exam at PP who also performed abortions. She was one of the best doctors I that has ever treated me. She had a fantastic bedside manner. And also, they have no qualms about letting people see their ultrasounds. They simply ask whether you want to or not. They give you a choice. That’s the point.

  97. Heather, your battle on doctors who perofomr abortions has already been fought and used against you, I came up with the names of something like 15 or so dentists (of course, one stretched the page so a few hours later a new blog post was put up, but thats beside the point).
    The point is that there are sick people in every walk of life and there always will be. Saying that the doctors who are screwed up and do horrible things shows that our whole side is wrong is like saying that your whole side is wrong because people bomb clinics and that your side has people like the Phelps. It holds no water and is unneeded.

  98. Mid –
    “Valerie, have you ever had a CLOSE family friend die from an abortion clinic bombing? I have when Rudolph bombed the one in B’ham. The cop that was working was my mother’s partner & I grew up calling Uncle. He was trying to protect women from the pro-life people that stand outside that clinic and yell “whore or slut” at them. Not to mention they throw shit at these women. Do NOT bring that up me. ”
    Have you had a friend die from an abortion and a cousin die of complications that resulted from an abortion?
    Don’t lecture me.
    Listen to yourselves. Heather is doing the exact same thing you guys are. You are allsaying we don’t care about the woman, that we think she is a whore and a slut, that WE are the ones that cause depression.
    Talk about making a generalization about a group of people.

  99. Did I say that You (valerie) or Heather call women who go into Abortion Clinics Sluts or whores? No I did not. And until you’ve experienced pain like, do not talk to me about it. I’ve made no “generalizations” about y’all.

  100. Hey midnight,
    You’re not the only one who’s experienced pain here. Plenty of people do. I’m not chastising you or anything, but just keep that in mind.

  101. Valerie, sperm and egg cells are alive, too. Does that make them worthy of life? Tapeworms are alive, too, does that make them worthy of life?
    And Jasper, Stephanie is right. Men never have a responsibility during sex. You’re asserting that only women do. Sex is an act to enjoy, not to constantly worry about the responsibility of. Or are eating icecream or flying a kite, because they’re enjoyable, worthy of responsibility?

  102. Alyssa-
    If there was a way for the child to be taken from its mother’s womb and then implanted in the womb of another, I would support the action.
    As it stands, this is not an option. Lack of this option does not somehow make killing more moral.
    It would be like me saying “well you can care about people starving in third world countries, but you have to allow me to kill them because there isn’t a better option availible.”
    Sorry, it just doesn’t work.

  103. jasper, you seem to be saying that while women should be held legally accountable for sex, men should only be held morally accountable, how do you reconcile that with notions of universal equality in america?

  104. Valerie,
    I am sorry that friend and cousin died from an abortion. That is horrible & rare. But, they chose to have the abortion. Do you think that police officer chose to die by a bomb. You’re not using logic here. And I am NOT doing what Heather is doing. I was trying to have a civilized adult conversation with her about the topic. She STARTED and kept repeating the same shit over and over again. Did I do that? No.

  105. You’re right Stephanie that is true. But, quite honestly I am beyond pissed off at the moment from the ramblings from Heather and the generalizations made about me.

  106. “I met a very very sweet woman who gave me a gynocological exam at PP who also performed abortions. She was one of the best doctors I that has ever treated me. She had a fantastic bedside manner.”
    yes, she’s looking out for you….
    The woman: “now let me spread your legs suction out your baby”, or “tear his legs and arms from his body” “it’s ok, it really is”

  107. ‘It would be like me saying “well you can care about people starving in third world countries, but you have to allow me to kill them because there isn’t a better option availible.”‘
    are you providing them with aid? if not i consider that negligent homicide. and im not talking about the, “i send 20$ a month” aid. i mean the giving all you have aid. i dont HAVE anything except a computer, some canned food i get from a local food drive and a gas stove that has repeatedly tried to kill me. and i still send part of my financial aid check to sierra leone every semester.

  108. You guys are always talking about “intent”, and that’s what separates abortion from murder in the case of saving a woman’s life versus the life of her fetus. You say it’s regrettable when the fetus dies to save the mother. I say that the intent isn’t to kill the fetus, it’s to reassert bodily autonomy. The fact that it may die as a result is also regrettable. You say it’s all about syntax, and I agree. You just think one intent is better or more acceptable.

  109. Mike, the responsibility/rights of men when it comes to pregnancy are very “iffy”.
    Men have a situation in which they have no say over if a particular child should be born (thanks to abortion), but are forced into responsibility if the woman decides that should be the case.
    I believe that every man should be required by law to be a responsible party for the child that he helped create. This means both that the father is automatically responsible financially throughout the pregnancy, and also that he has a say in the outcome of said pregnancy.

  110. Lauren, I am living proof that does not happen. And actually, I am better off for not knowing my real father.

  111. Mid –
    “And by the way did you know that saddam hussein, timothy mcveigh, osama bin laden and stalin were pro life? ”
    And what was this suppose to mean?

  112. Mike, not that it’s any of your business what my personal contributions are, but our 40 family church works very closely with native missionaries. We will raise 42,000 dollars by the end of July in order to support a center for lepers. So yes, we are giving sacrificially in order to help these people.
    If you are interested in helping as well, I can tell you all about Immanuel Paul and his wonderful mission.

  113. The woman gave me a pap smear. She was very sweet. I’m assuming you don’t personally know any people who perform abortions. I know several. I get along very well with all of them. They are performing a service. Whether you agree with that service or not, they are saving countless women from back-alley abortions that would kill them AND the fetus. They’re doctors. They all went to medical school, studied hard, and are in a field that makes them feel like they are helping people. Just because a doctor performs a service you disagree with doesn’t make them a bad person. It makes them different from you. Either you’re going to have to live with them and we’re going to try and respect each other, or you can just go around claiming that abortionists, who usually also perform very important gynocological roles, are murderers and that women who have abortions should go to jail.

  114. midnite76- I’m not saying that my scenerio always happens. However, fathers are legally responsible for thier offspring after birth. Unless the mother specifically pardons the man from this responsibility (and his rights).

  115. Heather –
    Remember they want all abortions to be safe. So of course they want all the bad abortionist outed right? Just like they outed the abortion doctors in NJ for putting a woman in a coma and forcing her to lose her Uterus. oh Wait – that wasn’t the pro-choice movement. That’s right, the choicers did nothing to help.

  116. You guys said that RTL’s throw things at women and call them names. I’m over it. I don’t really believe that. I have never done that. I told you guys that the abortionists are the ones calling you whores and tramps. Now,you’re mad at me. That makes a lot of sense.

  117. “Whether you agree with that service or not, they are saving countless women from back-alley abortions that would kill them AND the fetus”
    the fetus is saved during abortions by doctors? wow

  118. Alyssa –
    “Valerie, sperm and egg cells are alive, too. Does that make them worthy of life? Tapeworms are alive, too, does that make them worthy of life? ”
    Tapeworms stay in the body longer than 9 months and if not removed there is a 100% chance of death in the host body. Not sure that is the same with pregnancy.
    See – pregnancy does not cause death. There may be complications. But a tapeworm will cause death if not removed.
    See the difference here?

  119. lauren, thats good. all im saying is that removing a fetus from your body and allowing it to die is exactly the same kind of immoral as not contributing as much as you can to the worlds poor. arguably, pregnancy is MORE giving, in that some women actually lay down their lives in an attempt to protect their fetus, and few can say they do the same for any other person.

  120. Alyssa- The debate hinges on if the fetuses right to life overides the mothers right to bodily domain. We say yes. If the mothers life is at risk, the question becomes if right to life of the fetus overides right to life of the mother. In that instance we say no (though some of us personally say yes).
    The issue isn’t the regrettablility of the death of the child, but rather the balance of rights leading to his death.

  121. No, jasper, but I am saying that if a woman wants an abortion, she’s going to get one. I’d rather them be legal so a woman can at least be safe, as opposed to something far more dangerous where you pointlessly lose both fetus and mother in the process.

  122. the father isnt held as accountable as the mother. think about howmany deadbeat and absentee dads there are that arent even charged with neglect. complete double standard based solely on the notion that women are “responsible” for becoming pregnant.

  123. Valerie, actually, pregnancy causes several times more deaths than an abortion does. It’s a low number, but it’s still a risk. And even if it doesn’t cause death, pregnancy and delivery can severely damage a womans health.

  124. Once again Heather (AND I AM NOT GOING TO REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN)I did not say that you, or anyone on this site has picketed abortion clinics and called the women whores. I said some pro-lifers did this at the Clinic in B’ham. It does happen (by people who take pro-life to the extreme). I did not say You or Valerie did this. QUIT putting words in my mouth.
    Also, I am sure Abortionist doctors have said that, and I’m sure many more will. But AGAIN NOT ALL DOCTORS DO THIS.

  125. “No, jasper, but I am saying that if a woman wants an abortion, she’s going to get one. I’d rather them be legal so a woman can at least be safe, as opposed to something far more dangerous where you pointlessly lose both fetus and mother in the process.”
    Is a fetus safe during an abortion too?

  126. Lauren: You are correct, it does not always happen that way. I was simply pointing out that in some cases (like mine) the child is better off not knowing the real father.

  127. Mike, while I agree that the two are similar, the difference is that in most cases the woman does something to contribute to the creation of the problem.
    This obviously is not the case with rape.
    Regardles, the majority of abortions fit into our analogy the following way:
    Our actions create the child who we then refuse to support and allow to die.
    This would be like me personally going to India, causing a situation that resulted in the reliance of a person on my support, and then refusing to give support.
    Can you see how my responsibility in the situation ups my obligations to the person?

  128. and western colonialism, american importation of diamonds from sierra leone, constant interference in third world politics arent creating the situation? the only difference is scale and duration.

  129. Mike (on deadbeat dads)
    I agree that there are far too many men who do not uphold their responsibility. However, simply bearing the child does not make a woman immune to this sort of behavior.
    My sister in law divorced her husband, abandoned her children, and moved to Nashville. She did nothing to support her children while she was away. Obviously giving birth to the two did little to force anyone to hold her accountable.
    Of course, we all know that it is much easier for a man to skirt duty than a woman because of biology. However, I do not believe that our view should be “if men do it, we should too!” but rather “we need to hold men more accountable”.
    Midnite- I too grew up without my father at my mother’s insistance. Though throughout my time at home I thought this was for the best, I later realized how much I missed by not having him in my life. I’m not saying this is your situation, only that I understand not having a father take responsibility.

  130. Go to ‘THE CHOICE BLUES’ Actual abortion in progress. Tell me what you think. Warning! Very graphic! Watch as the cervix is pinched.

  131. i think the entire abortion issue is fundamentally scapegoating. “LOOK HOW AMORAL THEY ARE!!!” never looking at everyones failures of accountability, and the fact we are all about as guilty of that abortion for failing to provide for the mothers wellbeing. we have a responsibility, and i dont mean in a christian sense, to provide for the rest of society. you cant create rules for someone unless you are giving them something, you have no authority.
    at any rate, im going back to work now. peace all.

  132. Mike, yes there are things that America has done to influence the situation, but the scale of the situation matters greatly.
    Pregnancy is a matter of personal responsiblity. While there are sociatal factors, the person is ultimately held responsible for her own actions. In order for the situation to allign, I must have personally done something to create the situation of a specific people.
    After review personal obligation we can begin extrapolating to societal obligation.

  133. “That is horrible & rare. ”
    Death from abortion is rare? Go tell that to the family of these people:
    Eurice Agbaaga
    Demetrice Andrews
    “Gloria”
    Mickey Apodaca
    “Faith”
    Gloria Aponte
    Charisse Ards
    “Tracy”
    Barbara Auerbach
    “Isabel”
    Jacqueline Bailey
    Brenda Banks
    “Betty”
    Myrta Baptiste
    “Monica”
    Lisa Bardsley
    Junette Barnes
    “Lori”
    Deanna Bell
    “Roxanne”
    Brenda Benton
    Rosario Bermeo
    “Nadine”
    Janet Blaum
    “Sandra”
    Cassandra Bleavins
    Linda Boom
    “Melinda”
    Diane Boyd
    “Wanda”
    Mary Bradley
    Dorothy Brown
    “Becky”
    Dorothy Bryant
    “Stephanie”
    Belinda Byrd
    Janyth Caldwell
    “Dorothy”
    Joan Camp
    “Annie”
    Marla Cardamone
    Teresa Causey
    “Pamela”
    Claudia Caventou
    “Beth”
    Patricia Chacon
    Colleen Chambers
    “Ginger”
    Sandra Chmiel
    “Lynn”
    Gwendolyn Cliett
    Margaret Clodfelter
    “Cindy”
    Pamela Colson
    “Ellen”
    Geneva Colton
    Andrea Corey
    “Rhonda”
    Liliana Cortez
    “Amy”
    Edith Cote
    Shery Cottone
    “Carol”
    Twila Coulter
    “Tammy”
    Carol Cunningham
    Betty Damato
    “Sara”
    Mary Ann Dancy
    “Audrey”
    Angel Dardie
    Barbaralee Davis
    “Vanessa”
    Glenda Davis
    “Trish”
    Kathy Davis
    Margaret Davis
    “Penny”
    Sharon Davis
    “Stacy”
    Marina DeChapell
    Arlin dela Cruz
    “Gail”
    Synthia Dennard
    “Hallie”
    Alerte Desanges
    Barbara Dillon
    “Teresa”
    Laniece Dorsey
    “Frances”
    Tamika Dowdy
    Gwendolyn Drummer
    “Donna”
    Anjelica Duarte
    “Veronica”
    Evelyn Dudley
    Sherry Emry
    “Sylvia”
    Georgianna English
    “Molly”
    Maureen Espinoza
    Gladyss Estanislao
    “Nancy”
    Erna Fisher
    “Hope”
    Bonnie Fix
    Sharon Floyd
    “Christie”
    Linda Fondren
    “Eleanor”
    Christella Forte
    Janet Foster
    “Gina”
    Glenna Jean Fox
    “Denise”
    Jammie Garcia
    Josefina Garcia
    “Lydia”
    Marie Gibson
    “Wendy”
    Kathleen Gilbert
    Christina Goesswein
    “Holly”
    Gaylene Golden
    “Alison”
    Maria Gomez
    Rita Goncalves
    “Roslyn”
    Shary Graham
    “Kelly”
    Doris Grant
    Debra Gray
    “Jane”
    Norma Greene
    “Vicki”
    Carolina Gutierrez
    Angela Hall
    “Reanne”
    Sharon Hamptlon
    “Shirley”
    Arnetta Hardaway
    Gracealynn Harris
    “Jackie”
    Wilma Harris
    “Eileen”
    Sheila Hebert
    Donna Heim
    “Gwen”
    Lou Anne Herron
    “Beverly”
    Moris Helen Herron
    Rhonda Hess
    “Amanda”
    Betty Hines
    “Danielle”
    Shirley Hollis
    Denise Holmes
    “Susan”
    Barbara Hoppert
    “Elisa”
    Mary Ives
    Karretu Jabbie
    “Colleen”
    Louchrisser Jackson
    “Janet”
    Sandra Kaiser
    Elise Kalat
    “Mary

  134. Lauren: I got lucky, my mother started dating my father when she was two weeks pregnant with me. Although I dont share his genes, he is my father. I met my biological father when I was 19, and he is a piece of shit. I realized then how lucky I was not growing with him.

  135. “Valerie, actually, pregnancy causes several times more deaths than an abortion does. It’s a low number, but it’s still a risk. And even if it doesn’t cause death, pregnancy and delivery can severely damage a womans health.”
    You know, I keep hearing this. But have seen no evidence of it. I’ve looked, but I might be looking in the wrong place. Any chance of where I can verify this info?

  136. Here’s a preliminary piece on basic pregnancy mortality, I’m searching around for things that show the comparison and possibly something more recent, this is from 1999.

  137. Mid –
    I agree that sometimes life is better without the father. Did you ever see “Riding in Cars with Boys” or read the book. Perfect example!
    Erin –
    Thank you.
    Heather –
    I gave SOMG info proving that statement wrong. Did he ever post after me? I’ll try to find it.
    BTW – I’m not even suppose to be on here today! I’ve got tons of work! I’m so addicted.

  138. Quick Google search led me to these statistics:
    The risk of abortion complications is minimal; fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[24]
    Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries. [25]
    Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other types of cancer.[26]
    In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women

  139. Oh, pregnancy isn’t dangerous at all…hmm….considering it was the leading cause of death of women in their child-bearing years for the longest time before technology ended the outright “holocaust” (see how easy it is to just throw that word around? Hmm…I’m sure you won’t object to me using this since it’s easy for you to throw it around with abortion) of women dying to be slaves to fetuses and a male-dominated society. Abortion is just one more technology aiding in keeping women from dying due to pregnancy, labor, and childbirth. But it’s still a medical procedure, which does entail risks. People DIE from tonsillectomies, all procedures carry a risk. But this so-called natural process of pregnancy was the leading cause of death for women until medicine advanced. This doesn’t lessen its power to put a woman at risk. It only means that we have the power to curb that risk, which abortion does significantly. (How many women get pre-eclampsia after an abortion? Blood clots? Die during labor?…hmmm?)

  140. Hal,
    Isn’t the Guttmacher Institute the right arm of Planned Parenthood? I know us lifers are gonna give some links to pro-life leaners also, just wondering.
    Erin,
    Is a baby a life?
    I understand where you’re coming from with the “more deaths from pregnancies”, but what about the deaths of the babies from the abortions? As a mother, I would certainly lay down my life for the birth of my child. Death from an abortion, I think not.
    To all:
    How do I make sure I post w/o sounding nasty? Am new to this whole thing. Thanks :)

  141. no, the guttmacher institute is a private research firm that pretty much just objectively polls about everything you can think about.

  142. Janet, that’s great that you’d choose to lay down your life for your child. That’s all well and good, and I respect your decision. What I don’t respect is that you expect that same devotion from all women. Pregnancy isn’t supposed to be perverted into something that women should be “expected” to endure upon its beginning. What makes motherhood so beautiful is the WILLINGNESS for a woman to sacrifice herself to another being for nine months, not because she is forced to house it by her government against her will.

  143. Janet- I already have a feeling we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel that my right to bodily integrity quashes the rights of a few cells in my uterus. I feel that until a fetus is viable, until it can survive without leeching from my body, that it does not have rights. This is where the main arguement between pro-lifers and pro-chiocers comes in- and it’s something that we’ll probably never truly rectify.

  144. Hi Alyssa,
    Speaking of technology, because of it, most women do not die from pregnancy.
    Yes, abortion is a medical procedure. And abortion clinics do not have the standard of a hospital that would perform other types of medical procedures.
    Because it is a medical procedure, I wonder why PP and such are in such a tizzy about underage girls not being able to get this medical procedure done, especially since they are just looking out for women’s health.
    About women being a slave to a fetus…
    Wha-?! How did the fetus get there in the first place?

  145. Hal, the comment that “Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.” is a complete misrepersentation of the facts.
    Let’s look at the studies:
    First ectopic pregnancies:
    “Epidemiological findings indicate that the two principal risk factors for EP(ectopic pregnancy) as reproductive rather than contraceptive failure are a history of genital infection or tubal surgery and smoking. Quantitatively, their role in the risk of EP is similar: each explains approximately one-third of EP. They have a causal role in EP risk. The other risk factors are the woman’s age and her history of spontaneous or elective abortion. These risk factors together explained 76% of EP”
    Now low birth weight, prematurity:
    ” Women whose pregnancy is terminated by dilatation and evacuation may have an increased risk of subsequent premature delivery and a low birthweight baby. Very little has been published and no conclusions can be made regarding the effects of instillation procedures and repeat abortions on future reproduction.”
    Now let’s look at the numbers:
    ” Three percent (3%) of the women who underwent a dilation-and-evacuation procedure developed complications, compared to 5% of the women who underwent suction curettage. Two percent (2%) of the women who underwent a second trimester abortion developed an infection, the most common complication, compared to 3% of the women who underwent a first trimester abortion.”

    Ok, so let’s look just at abortion rates in America.
    “In 2002, a total of 854,122 legal induced abortions were reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Nearly 90% of these abortions were performed before 13 weeks’ gestation. Of these induced abortions, 91% were completed surgically by dilation and evacuation.”
    Now let’s look at complications:
    90% of 854,122 is 768,709.8 We’ll go with 768,710.
    10% of 854,122 is 85412.2 We’ll go with 85,412
    3% of the 768,710 abortions prior to 13 weeks result in complication. That number is 23,061
    5% of the 85,412 abortions after 13 weeks result in complication. That number is 4, 270
    Of course, this does not take into account how many of these post 13 week abortions are third trimester abortions that carry much greater risk. We are using conservative estimates.
    So 23,061 + 4,270 = 27,331 women a year suffer abortion complications. That is 75 women a day. In the United States.
    With complication:
    “Reproductive potential after a postabortal infection may be compromised by Asherman’s syndrome, pelvic adhesions, or incompetent cervix. Tubal infertility is a concern after postabortal infections caused by N gonorrhoeae or C trachomatis.”
    Postabortion infections
    Mar 1, 2001
    By: A. Karen Kreutner, MD
    Contemporary OB/GYN
    Asherman’s Syndrome:Asherman’s syndrome is the presence of intrauterine adhesions that typically occur as a result of scar formation after uterine surgery, especially after a dilatation and curettage (D&C). The adhesions may cause amenorrhea (lack of menstrual periods) and/or infertility.
    “We believe women contemplating abortion would benefit from this knowledge and that providers of abortion procedures have an autonomy-based obligation to make women aware of the potential future reproductive harm. ”
    John M. Thorp, Jr., MD
    It’s obvious that even uneventful abortions may impair future reproduction. When we throw complication into the mix, it’s little wonder so many infertile women have a history of induced abortion.
    I hardly consider this to be of virtual nonexistant risk.

  146. Erin –
    Actually no, it doesn’t help. Here is what I found on the second website for abortion info.
    “Case-fatality rates for 1998–1999 cannot be calculated because a substantial number of abortions occurred in the four nonreporting states, and the total number of abortions (the denominator) is unknown.”
    —- the four non reporting states being Alaska, California, Oklahoma and New Hampshire
    “Data by state of residence are incomplete because three states (Alaska, California, and New Hampshire) did not report and five states (Arizona, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, and Massachusetts) did not provide any data concerning the residence status of all women obtaining abortions in their state. ”
    “CDC identified 22 maternal deaths for 1998 and 17 maternal deaths for 1999 that were thought to be potentially related to abortion. These maternal deaths were identified either by some indication of abortion on the death certificate or from information such as a news report associated with the death.”
    umm… 1998 and 1999 are the years that they can’t calculate because 4 states didn’t report! California being one of them!
    Sorry – but that proves nothing other than the states do not provide the government with adequate informtion in order to make these assumptions.

  147. Lauren, we’re not claiming that there is no risk with abortion, we’re simply pointing out that research shows that pregnancy carried to term and delivered is 12 times more likely to cause death than an abortion. And I had to undergo an abortion- I had a tubal pregnancy- and they give everyone antibiotics after the procedure. An infection usually develops if a woman doesn’t keep up with the medication that the clinic gives her.

  148. Heather4Life: I never said that abortion CANNOT cause cervical damage. It can and does. I said that full-term childbirth causes MORE cervical damage.
    Do you have a reading disability, or are you just trying to appear more stupid than you are? If the latter, it really isn’t necessary.

  149. It may have gotten there by an act of sex, but many do not place the burden of responsibility on said act like you do. Like consent can be taken away during sex, consent can be removed during pregnancy. Much like how someone can agree to donate an organ, then decide at the last moment not to, because it is their organ and their decision what to do with it. Whether or not the other party dies due to said decision is not the donating party’s responsibility, even if they are responsible for the other party’s predicament. My uterus belongs to me, and no one else. I can choose to allow a biological freeloader (which is what a fetus/embryo is, and that is undebatable) to use it for nine months, but I’m not obligated.

  150. Valerie- I’m in the process of searching for more recent information. It may take some time to find a source that we will both find credible and reliable. Give me a little while, I’m trying to study for my final right now too :-)

  151. Valerie, I see it’s time to quote JAMA again:
    “Legal-abortion mortality between 1979 and 1985 was 0.6 death per 100,000 procedures, more than 10 times lower than the 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births between 1979 and 1986. Serious complications from legal abortion are rare. ” From JAMA, Vol. 268 No. 22, December 9, 1992.
    Do you know what JAMA stands for, dear?

  152. Erin, I was simply pointing out that the information given by the AGI was factually inaccurate.
    Also, do you have any studies to back up your claim that most post abortive infections are the result of patient combliability?

  153. the thing about quoting individual physicians is it doesnt neccesarily mean what they say is true. thats why you only quote peer reviewed and AMA approved journal articles.

  154. Heather Said
    You are mad at me for exposing abortion doctors. Did you not have any idea that they could be this way?
    Want me to post statistics on the Catholic priests who molest children? Want me to post details on the times that the Vaticin has done nothing about it? Do you need me to post exerpts from some of the trials? I can: frankly, if you belive that all abortion doctors are bad because of a handful, you must also believe that all Catholic priests are bad because of a handful. Or are only those who disagree with you bad?
    You can’t judge an entire segment of people by a few bad guys. I wouldn’t say that all priests are child molesters, I know that to be untrue. So knock off the accusations unless a) you can back it up with evidence, and b) you can prove that the vast majority of abortion doctors are rapists/hate women.

  155. Lauren-
    No, I don’t. I simply have the knowledge that bacteria causes infections and anti-biotics kill infections and therefore if a patient is taking their antibiotics it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will develop one. Not impossible- but nearly.

  156. Alyssa –
    “Oh, pregnancy isn’t dangerous at all…hmm….considering it was the leading cause of death of women in their child-bearing years for the longest time before technology”
    Leading cause? I’m not being condesending here, but that is the first time I’ve heard that. I’ve done some research on Midwifery from mid-evil times to present. Now, pregnancy wasn’t as easy as it is now, and there were more deaths as a result so it is possible, but do you know where I can find that info?
    (I did the midwifery research for a book I’m trying to write, and this info would be beneficial.)

  157. Mike, I had 4 peer reviewed studies, and ended with a quote from a physician that supported the findings of the studies. The physicians quote was simply in addition to my other evidence.
    The studies were compiled by me, not him. He simply agreed with my findings.

  158. And you found it necessary to make unfounded accusations about an entire industry as well, Heather?

  159. Will do, Valerie. I’m on the hunt for information about pre-technology death from pregnancy. :D

  160. SOMG:
    JAMA – Journal of the American Medical Association.
    So you are telling me that the AMA can get more info than the CDC can? Because California, New Hampshire, Alaska and Oklahoma do not report abortion stats. And they didn’t just stop reporting in the late ’90’s. They don’t report.
    I know, you are having problems reading, like you did when I proved that abortion causes more cervical damage than full term births. I’ll repost from the CDC’s report on abortions.
    “Case-fatality rates for 1998–1999 cannot be calculated because a substantial number of abortions occurred in the four nonreporting states, and the total number of abortions (the denominator) is unknown.”

  161. I know I’m coming in late on this discussion, but I thought I’d voice my thoughts anyway.
    I’m pro-choice, but the idea that a woman could be so traumatized by an abortion to fall into depression makes sense if they regret the action later on. Instead of giving the depression its own name, they could just list it as a cause of post-traumatic stress disorder, couldn’t they? I mean, they might have a better chance of getting funding, but it’s just an idea to throw out there.

  162. I’m still looking, but I just came across an interesting article on infection after medical abortion.
    From the abstract:
    The adoption of mifepristone is considered in the context of epidemiologic data on abortion, abortion access, and the safety of abortion. The risks of medication and aspiration abortion are discussed in the context of abortion-related mortality, recent experience with obstetric and gynecologic infection with Clostridium sordellii, and the limits of scientific knowledge on the incidence of this infection in women. Innovative protocols studied since FDA approval of mifepristone are presented, and implications for clinical practice are discussed.
    Journal of Midwifery & Women’s Health (J MIDWIFERY WOMENS HEALTH), 2007 Jan-Feb; 52(1): 23-30 (43 ref)
    I wasn’t even thinking about infection due to medical abortions, but it is certainly something to be taken into account.

  163. Erin –
    Study for your tests first for Goodness sake! Get back to me later. I don’t need to know now, I’m patient.

  164. Less –
    “You can’t judge an entire segment of people by a few bad guys.”
    My point in agreeing with Heather (I know you didn’t address me – just my typical 2 cents) is because all we hear is how horrible us pro-lifers are because we call the women whores and sluts and tell them they are wrong. Look at the top of this post! Not to mention everytime we have to read about some wacko with a bomb! If you read the beginning of this, some pro-choicers were saying post abortion syndrom was the pro-life’s sides fault.

  165. Valerie, to be honest, I think that post-abortion depression is likely caused by social stigma. From the pro-life side they get pity or offers of forgivness or occasionally called whores, and from the pro-choice side they get pity or comments that they did the right thing…it must be confusing. It seems as though society is constantly telling women what to think/feel after an abortion: frankly, if they were left alone but given the option of support, perhaps it’d improve matters.
    Of course, I have nothing to back this up, just my theory. I mean, I’d rather be called a whore than told that I have the option of forgiveness, and then given pity.
    I realize that not all pro-life people are for the bombing, but just like the wacko Christians are the most vocal and are therefore associated with all Christians, the wacko pro-lifers are the most vocal and are therefore associated with all pro-lifers. I just think it’s very indicitive of how certain pro-lifers argue that the’re willing to pick out the specifically bad abortion doctors and typify the entire profession.

  166. Leah –
    “Instead of giving the depression its own name, they could just list it as a cause of post-traumatic stress disorder, couldn’t they? ”
    I have read (have no proof of this cause can’t remember where I read it) that right now it is listed in PTSD however the symptoms vary enough to be noticed in treatments. If it could get classified under its own name, A course of treatment can be planned out and medication/therapy won’t be given needlessly.
    As with all depression you have to play around with meds and and therapy’s (some of us know all to well about that!) but if you can get diagnosed with something in particular this limits where they will start. An example: I have AD/HD with clinical depression. So they knew they had to start with a ridelin derividive or something similar before they could deal with the depression. Does that make sense? If I wasn’t properly diagnosed they would have started on meds for the depression that could have made the AD/HD worse.

  167. Valerie: you wrote: ”
    I know, you are having problems reading, like you did when I proved that abortion causes more cervical damage than full term births.”
    Yes, Valerie, I missed it when you “proved” that. (hee hee!)

  168. Thank you Valerie. I can assure you pro-choice people that I am not a violent person. I don’t agree with murder of anyone. I wouldn’t know a bomb if I tripped over one. I don’t picket abortion clinics. The security is much too tight. Warning signs everywhere. I do pray,and I attend the March for Life in DC.

  169. There is suprisingly little information about post-abortive infection. However, this study regarding post abortive infection showed that antibiotics may not be effective in cases of std’s.
    Sexually transmitted infections (STIs) causing upper genital tract problems after termination of pregnancy (TOP) is well recognized. We undertook this study to assess the local prevalence of Chlamydia trachomatis infection and to estimate the potential benefits of introducing screening. The prevalence rate of C. trachomatis was 6%. Nine sexual contacts of the index cases were identified. They were symptom free, but all had non-specific urethritis (NSU). Four of them were positive for C. trachomatis. We conclude that screening for chlamydial infection is essential and routine prophylactic antibiotic cover may not be beneficial.
    Int J STD AIDS. 2000 Sep;11(9):617-8.
    Is it evidence-based practice? Prophylactic antibiotics for termination of pregnancy to minimize post-abortion pelvic infection?
    * Uthayakumar S,
    * Tenuwara W,
    * Maiti H.

  170. Lauren,every woman I know of that has had an abortion was put on an antibiotic. Thanks for the post. I assume it’s because of the cervix being opened. I have given birth 3 times. I have never been put on antibiotics.

  171. SOMG:
    http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/04/convert_stories.html#comments
    I noticed you didn’t have a response to :
    The American Pregnancy Association
    University of Illinois Medical Center
    Georgetown University
    Yet, you haven’t said anything other than telling Heather to find on the internet that one plus one equals two, or different stab wounds are different, or getting hit by a car vs a bicycle. Trust me, I can find websites on all of that. There are Mathematical websites that deal with statistical information that start with basic Math for learning. And medical websites that compare the difference of treatment for different stab wounds. And I’m sure that same medical website will have information on the difference of getting hit by a car and getting hit by a byclcle.
    Will these websites say in particular that one and one is two etc. I have no idea. But see, we who know how to think, can put the whole picture together without having to have our hand held for the entire learning experience.

  172. FINALLY! Ok, from this study it looks like antibiotics reduce the risk of infection by about half. This article explains other ways of dealing with post-abortive infection.:
    Pelvic infection complicates up to 12% of induced abortions and has an adverse effect on future reproductive outcome. The presence in the lower genital tract of Neisseria gonorrhoeae, Chlamydia trachomatis or the anaerobic organisms characterizing bacterial vaginosis is associated with an increased risk of post-abortion infective morbidity. Meta-analysis of randomized trials has shown that prophylaxis with antibiotics effective against either C. trachomatis or bacterial vaginosis reduces the risk of post-abortion infective morbidity by around a half. Other strategies which have been advocated for minimizing the risk of infective morbidity are screening for lower genital tract infections, with treatment of positive cases only, and a combined strategy where women are screened for sexually transmitted infections as well as receiving prophylaxis. These strategies provide the opportunity for appropriate follow-up and partner notification of those women found to have sexually transmitted infections. A multicentre study designed to determine the prevalence of genital tract infections among Scottish women seeking induced abortion, and to compare strategies of ‘universal prophylaxis’ and ‘screen and treat’ for minimizing infective morbidity in such women has been undertaken. A total of 1672 women were recruited. Prevalence rates of lower genital tract gonorrhoea, chlamydia and bacterial vaginosis were found to be similar to those reported in other UK studies. Women managed by the ‘screen and treat’ strategy (particularly those whose genital tract swabs were reported negative) had slightly higher rates of infective morbidity in the 8 weeks after abortion than those managed by ‘prophylaxis’. Using currently available screening tests and genitourinary medicine services, ‘prophylaxis’ appears to be the more cost effective of the two strategies studied.
    PIP: Reported rates of post-abortion pelvic inflammatory disease (PID) range from 5-29%. The risk of infection has been associated with the presence of Neisseria gonorrhoeae, Chlamydia trachomatis, and anaerobic organisms in the lower genital tract. The present study analyzed the prevalence of genital tract infections in 1672 women undergoing induced abortion at 3 centers in Scotland and evaluated the efficacy of two preventive interventions. Prevalence rates of lower genital tract gonorrhea, chlamydia, and bacterial vaginosis before abortion were similar to those identified in other UK studies. Women were randomly allocated to receive either prophylactic metronidazole (immediately before abortion) and doxycycline (for 7 days after abortion) or received antibiotics only if pre-abortion genital tract swabs were positive for any of the 3 infections. During the 8-week post-abortion follow-up period, women managed by the screen-and-treat protocol had slightly less favorable outcomes in terms of hospital readmissions, general practitioner consultations, antibiotic prescriptions, time off work, and limitations on domestic activities than women who received prophylactic treatment. Differences were statistically significant, however, only for women whose swabs were negative for all 3 infections. The rate of post-abortion PID/endometritis in this groups was 3% among women who received prophylactic antibiotics and 6% in those who were screened and not treated. These findings suggest that universal antibiotic prophylaxis may represent the most cost-effective approach to minimizing the risk of infective morbidity. Advocated for consideration is a third strategy involving prophylaxis at the time of abortion followed by screening for gonorrhea and chlamydia to ensure adequate follow-up of treatment results and partner notification.
    So basically, yes antibiotics are helpful, but certainly not failproof even with optimal compliance at preventing post-abortive infection.

  173. “Dont worry Heather, Cam will be back, I promise you that.”
    I’m sure your promise will come true.
    And then the man named Cameron Johnson will be back.

  174. SoMg, I can draw my own conclusions after watching ‘The Choice Blues’ video. It is an actual abortion in progress. If you were to do this to a woman’s cervix over and over again, there is bound to be damage.

  175. Heh, I wish I didn’t think debating controversial subjects was so much more entertaining than romanticism in Medieval Spain :-P

  176. Heather,
    I am not Cameron, I promise you that. FACT, I’m not Cameron or anyone else on this site, I am midnite

  177. Heather, I never denied that abortions can damage the cervix. What I said is that full-term delivery of a live infant causes MORE damage, MORE often.

  178. But to get back on topic: I support research on women’s emotional responses to abortion but a $15M research budget seems high to me. To pay for what? Patients filling out questionnaires?

  179. My proof is this: Ask any practising GYN. (I’m assuming your still asking about cervical damage during childbirth vs first-trimester abortion.)

  180. SOMG:
    What part of my information on the other post is confusing you?:
    – A weakened cervix can be caused by one or more of the following conditions:
    – Previous surgery on the cervix
    – Damage during a difficult birth
    – Malformed cervix or uterus from a birth defect
    – Previous trauma to the cervix, such as a D&C (dilation and curettage) from a termination or a miscarriage
    – DES (Diethylstilbestrol) exposure
    From the American Pregnancy Association.
    ___________
    A difficult birth is not the norm SOMG. However trauma is caused by a D&C which, I believe is the most commonly used abortion technique.
    or how about information on how a D&C is performed:
    1) You may receive antibiotics intravenously or orally to help prevent infection.
    2) The cervix is examined to evaluate if it is open or not. If the cervix is closed, dilators
    (narrow instruments in varying sizes) will be inserted to open the cervix to allow the surgical instruments to pass through. A speculum will be placed to keep the cervix open.
    3) The vacuum aspiration (also called suction curettage) procedure uses a plastic cannula (a flexible tube) attached to a suction device to remove the contents of the uterus. The cannula is approximately the diameter in millimeters as the number of weeks gestation the pregnancy is. For example, a 7mm cannula would be used for a pregnancy that is 7 weeks gestation. The use of a curette (sharp edged loop) to scrape the lining of the uterus may also be used, but is often not necessary.
    4) The tissue removed during the procedure may be sent off to the pathology lab for testing.
    5) Once the health care provider has seen that the uterus has firmed up and that the bleeding has stopped or is minimal, the speculum will be removed and you will be sent to recovery.
    Again from the American Pregnancy Association.
    hmm.. That sound a bit more traumatic than a natural birth doesn’t it?
    Now, how many more times can I prove you wrong?
    oh… and a weakened cervix is also known as an incompetent and that happens through damage of the cervix. Just thought you might need that bit of info.
    oh – and so you can remember, this is what you said: Posted by: SoMG at May 1, 2007 04:07 PM
    “I never said that abortion CANNOT cause cervical damage. It can and does. I said that full-term childbirth causes MORE cervical damage.”

  181. SoMg, Valerie has posted proof. You have not.I choose to believe Vaerie’s post.I guarantee that there would be a few web sites that you could go to and find your info., if it is factual.

  182. Nobody “stole” anything. Bethany and Hisman are both suffering from an identity crisis.

  183. Val & Heather, none of it confuses me, but there are no numbers in your post. HOW OFTEN does the cervix get torn during D&C? Versus HOW OFTEN in full-term childbirth? Your post contains no numbers and is therefore worthless. Doesn’t “prove” anything.
    And no, Valerie, your description of a D&C does NOT sound more traumatic than ordinary childbirth. Once again, in a D&C you typically dilate the cervix 1.4 cm or less. In ordinary childbirth the cervix must dilate 10-14 cm.

  184. SOMG,
    Sneezing is a natural occurence. Sometimes it can cause you nose to bleed. This is a natural phenomenon. Sticking a metal object up yer nose can also cause it to bleed. This is not the normal way to use a nose.
    nat

  185. MORAL: Woman have difficult birth requiring unnatural instruments will be better off left to their own ends.

  186. No, my child, you are wrong. A small “unnatural” or “forced” dilation is not as bad for your cervix as a ten-times-larger “natural” dilation (which is also forced, from within the uterus).
    Here’s my proof: Ask any practising GYN or OB.

  187. Alyssa,
    Call it what you may, the “freeloader” is a baby. Since this is a blog, that what all of our comments are made of. What I believe is fact, you call opinion, and vice-versa.
    Erin,
    Thanks for being civil. We may very well agree to disagree, but this is a pro-life site. I’m not going to try to win over pro-aborts on their sites. I am, however, fine with discussion, so
    again, I am really thankful. I wish we could agree.
    About the depression thing:
    Why is there controversy about spending money on helping women with it? Our tax dollars are being spent on abortions. If women are suffering from this, and everyone is so concerned about women’s health, it’s beyond me why it’s questionable.

  188. ….
    After that information, Cameron, I clicked on a random name…to be precise, I clicked on “HisMan”.
    ….
    Thanks a lot. =P

  189. Because she (and many other pro-lifers) want to portray us in the most negative light possible. Of course, pro-abort sounds a lot more negative than pro-choice, regardless of how accurate it is, so there you go…

  190. In other news, today is apparently a big day in which people all over the nation march for immigrant rights. That was pretty cool. They had one here on the UC Berkeley campus and marched to Oakland or further or something like that…

  191. Heather, that was not me fooling around. I was driving home from work & just got here.

  192. dont worry MK, i sure mr cam will find away to come back and disrupt the communisim on the site.

  193. PiP, loads of comments on this site make me think of Dogville, but I’ve never heard of State and Main.

  194. “Because she (and many other pro-lifers) want to portray us in the most negative light possible. Of course, pro-abort sounds a lot more negative than pro-choice, regardless of how accurate it is, so there you go.”
    I’ve been listening to NPR for 26 years, and they’ve never referred to pro-life as pro-life. Always anti-abortion.
    For my part, I prefer to use whatever terms people self-identify as, even if I believe the terms may be problematic. I just occasionally explain why I think so, in that case.
    So applying my standards for myself to NPR, I find their practice partisan.

  195. Rasqual, is that not, however, true? Pro-lifers are against abortion. Therefore, anti-abortion. Explain, exactly, how this is partisan? We are not for abortion: we are for a woman’s right to chose what is best for her. No where in that do we stipulate that every pregnancy must end in abortion.

  196. By the way, the bloomin’ logons/cookies/whatever for this site are freaking me out a bit. Sometimes the browser is miraculously logged in on its own, sometimes it’s not. Whatever. Rasqual (me) and Scott Marquardt (me) are alike me. ;-)

  197. Haven’t seen that one, Less.
    State and Main is a good comedy, it’s basically small town meets corrupt hollywood (movie shooting).
    Hilarity ensues. One of my favorite characters is the restaraunt owner. Communism is all he talks about. “You don’t like that. Try living under communism. Here’s your bowl of food, eat it and shut up.”
    Other good ones:
    Walt Price: What does he like?
    Bill Smith: 14-year-old girls.
    Walt Price: Well, get him something else. We want to get out of this town alive. Get him half a 28-year-old girl. How’s my math?
    Walt Price: Hey, did you see the grosses for Gandhi 2?
    Bill Smith: It’s Marty, he’s on the coast.
    Walt Price: On the coast? Of course he’s on the coast, where would he be, The Hague?
    Joseph Turner White: You believe that?
    Ann Black: I do if you do.
    Joseph Turner White: But it’s absurd.
    Ann Black: So is our electoral process. But we still vote.

  198. I’m glad to hear that rasqual. I don’t think I could stand it if TWO geniuses were bloggin on here.
    I love your posts…they just take a little longer to read.
    mk

  199. Rasqual,
    You’re having problems because the site was put on alert due to some children that got on here…
    Oh the youth of today. So much time, so little maturity.

  200. Here’s some for the pregnancy crowd:
    Joseph Turner White: You like kids?
    Ann Black: Never saw the point of ’em.
    Joseph Turner White: Me neither.
    Production Assistant: Your wife’s on the phone.
    Walt Price: I have no wife!
    Tommy Max: My wife is going to have a baby.
    Walt Price: Oh, good, let’s bring more people into this overcrowded world.
    Claire Wellesley: I’m not a child! I have feelings!

  201. Abortion proponents frequently claim that the majority of America is pro-choice, or at least not against abortion in all instances. If this is granted, then being against one of the possible choices is clearly pejorative.
    Pro-life people are against abortion for a reason more fundamental than that they find abortion per se loathesome; they are for the unborn. It is advocacy on behalf of a good that funds their objection to the practice. Not allowing the semantics of that positive advocacy to be aired by making that a solid commitment in the editorial stylebook is, to my mind, a travesty.
    Pro-choice, of course, is so obviously progressive and salutary in all its connotations.
    The fairest label is the self-identifying label. I’m not sure how anyone could disagree with that.

  202. Of course, I also think it’s fair to call pro-choice people morally clueless and nearly insane, but I’ll at least extend the courtesy of granting them their self-identifying label. ;-)

  203. Rasqual, are you also for the death penalty? Than you are not pro-life. Are you a pacifist? No? Then you are not pro-life.
    See the problem with the label now?

  204. Rasqual,
    What do you call a thief? Involuntary material mover? Or, pro-active, self-enriching, autonomous, ownership changer? It’s ridiculous.
    Get real. People who support, perform, and don’t oppose abortion are all murderers or are aiders and abetters of murderers.
    If you can’t take being called what you are then you should get off the bus. What, no guts?

  205. Less,
    As usual you are wrong, period. The death penalty is enacted by the state to bear the sword and therefore to restrain evil for the protection of society. It is done against those who have had a fair trial and been found guilty of taking of another’s life, had many appeals, and are excuted, and that not without great hesistation.
    Abortion is the murder of an innocent, defenseless child in the womb who has had no trial, cannot speak or plead for himself, cannot appeal to the state for protection since it has abandoned its responsibility, and has been abandoned by the very parents that have been given the charge by a Holy God to protect them.
    To even mention that being pro-death penalty and anti-abortion are inconsistent views, indicates a lack of sense of any moral value or measure of right and wrong.
    Get this, one is innocent and deserves no penalty, the other is guilty and deserves death.
    So let’s not any one of us be deceived by the twisted logic of a pro-deather.

  206. I’m ambivalent about the death penalty (I advocate neither way), but you’re mistaken if you imagine pro-life isn’t consistent with the death penalty. Forfeiture is a hotly disputed theory, I’ll grant — but I find few who claim that advocates of the death penalty cannot be pro-life, who also object to forfeiture theory on more than the shallowest grounds.
    Liberals are generally fans of freedom, but they grant that criminals often forfeit their right to several freedoms; this generally happens in prison.
    In short, if conservatives may be accused of inconsistency in the matter of right to life versus death penalty advocacy, liberals may be accused of inconsistency (in the very making of that critique) in applying the principle of forfeiture.
    As for pacifism, I’m not a theorist only. I’ve served in the military (’79-’88) and once informed my command that I suspected I might be a conscientous objector. After two months of soul-searching (while being relieved of all duties involving the possible use of lethality), I realized I wasn’t.
    But again, if you wish to critique forfeiture, realize that I’ll expect you to apply that consistently. I think you’ll find that coming out the other side of such an argument, my position will be tenable and yours might not be. ;-)
    As for “problems with labels,” I’ve indicated elswhere that my point of view is often informed by cases of young women whose “choices”…well…aren’t. The men who exercise asymmetric power in the relationship are making the choices. The young women’s actions are compelled.
    If pro-life viewpoints are rendered complex by forfeiture theories, pro-choice viewpoints are rendered no less complex by the extent to which human actions may be compelled in relationships where power is not symmetrical.
    You’re welcome to deny that and claim, instead, that reality is damned simple after all.

  207. Oh HisMan, do you have any arguments that don’t deal with religion?
    Have you heard of the multitude of people who, with the advent of DNA evidence, were released from death row? Seems as though occasionally, the justice system was wrong: had it not been for DNA evidence, these “innocent” people would have been killed.
    Fetuses are not innocent; innocence requires some self-awareness. Fetuses do not have self-awareness. As far as I’m aware, God hasn’t come down from the heavens and told any parents that I know that they have a sacred charge to protect them. Unless you can absolutely prove that such a charge exists (no Bible!) than that argument is null.
    Pro-life would mean for life. How is it inconsistant to expect that those who claim to be proponants of life wouldn’t want to kill people?

  208. Rasquel, I’m currently in a relationship of equality: I wouldn’t have it any other way. If I got pregnant, I would abort without his urging. We would discuss it, and he would be welcome to his opinion, but I would abort. If this would end the relationship, so be it. There’s no power imbalance: I simply do not want kids, and thus would abort.

  209. “What do you call a thief? Involuntary material mover? Or, pro-active, self-enriching, autonomous, ownership changer? It’s ridiculous.”
    Of course. But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it?
    I’m anti-abortion BECAUSE I’m pro-life. I want to be known for what I’m fundamentally for. Everything else is derivative.
    Think of it in terms of logical argument. If someone knows I’m against abortion, they would be free to infer all kinds of reasons why that might be so. I might be against women’s rights (as they might construe that), for example. I might merely hate messy activities, perhaps. I might have a phobia of ostensibly medical procedures beginning with the letter “a”.
    Pro-life is the root of things. Anti-abortion is a branch. As Less pointed out, capital punishment and pacifism are related issues. You could not possibly infer from an anti-abortion viewpoint to those other issues without first inferring back to pro-life. It’s fundamental.
    Please understand that this is not from a carelessness or any kind thoughts about abortionists or their defenders. That would be an insane representation of my thinking on this.
    I’m against abortion. I am anti-abortion. And I want to be publicly known for WHY. I am pro-life.

  210. “Rasquel, I’m currently in a relationship of equality”
    Wonderful. You’ve escaped a fate some women haven’t. Be very glad.

  211. kudos rasqual,
    I love your humour,…. it’s very much fun to see piercing and very comical insight from MK and His Man … Jill too. It really is super to have fun inside such a serious discussion …. [for you younger folk:] rasqual being in the military so many years ago, puts him in the same age group as His Man and me … old, very-old, eh? MK is a wee younger than us-three … but a super person. So, welcome!!!

  212. Less,
    Why is it that every time I talk about God you say I’m using religion? Do you understand what religion is? Religion is man trying to reach God.
    True religion, as defined in the Bible, is visiting orphans and widows in theri distress and not about rules, regulations and ritual.
    I am for orphans, i.e., any child in the womb or born. To that extent I’m talking about religion. Since you are talking about orphaned babies in the womb and your support for killing them based on a choice, you’re engaging yourself in a religious context whether you want ot admit it or not. So does that make you anti-God or anti-orphans, or both?
    The wisdom of the wise is as foolishness to God. To dismiss Him from any argument, especaily those of a life and death nature, is simply ignorant. Sorry to be so harsh but their is really no other word for it.
    Why is it that you can’t talk God. Feel inadequately equipped in that area or are you above it (pun intended).

  213. @ John:
    *snicker*
    Rasquel left the military the year I was born…and that was quite awhile ago now. ^_^

  214. Less:
    “I just think it’s very indicitive of how certain pro-lifers argue that the’re willing to pick out the specifically bad abortion doctors and typify the entire profession.”
    ??
    I think you were redundant there:
    [specifically bad][abortion doctors]
    ;-)

  215. Rasquel, the fact that you make poorly formed smiley faces at the end of your posts does not make them cute, amusing, insightful, or witty. Frankly, I find your typifying of an entire profession disguisting.

  216. Mike,
    The beginning of wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord.
    I didn’t see you mention the Bible in your recommended reading list.
    Just who do you think created the trees that provided the paper for these so-called people of wisdom to put their thoughts on? Who created thought? Oh, I know, a lots of time and chance. That’s the biggest lie being believed today.
    What kind of car do you drive? If you’re young maybe an STi or a Charger? Now a car is a much simpler object than a human being. Why aren’t any already built cars found buried as fossils near iron deposits? How about just a fender or wheel? OK, how about a six sided nut, just one. You think after miliions and millions of years and all that time, we’d be able to find just one iron nut with six sides and just a few threads in it. Have we ever found one, just one? Is mother nature predjudice against nuts? I know that’s a loaded question.
    Let’s take a cardboard box. Seen any naturally occurring cardboard boxes lately? No? OK, how about a stone box?
    To exclude the Creator from any discussion of wisdom well is just foolishness, the oppsite of wisdom.

  217. His Man, you don’t have to oppose evolution to believe in the Bible. Even the Pope says so.
    My biggest pet peeve–thinking they are irreconcilable..

  218. Less:
    “Rasquel, the fact that you make poorly formed smiley faces at the end of your posts does not make them cute, amusing, insightful, or witty. Frankly, I find your typifying of an entire profession disguisting.”
    “poorly formed smiley faces” is a loquacious way of saying “winky”.
    What would you have a pro-life person do? Respect those who kill life we believe should be protected?
    Tell me — would you prefer to be surrounded by people who didn’t give a damn about life they think should be protected? If such a person were your neighbor and you were getting violently assaulted, they wouldn’t care. Savvy?

  219. Rasqual, have you ever heard of the Bystander Intervention theory? It’s basically the psychological concept that ultimately, people don’t care about each other anyway. Frankly, if I was getting violently assulted, in all likiness my neighbors wouldn’t care anyway, unless I was particularly loud about it.
    Frankly, I believe that people should be treated with at least with moderate respect until proven otherwise. As you know nothing about the person other than their profession, I’d say that’s a pretty low way to judge someone.

  220. Less,
    I gave God’s definition of religion, you gave me a dictionary or man’s definiiton of religion. If you read my post I was being consistent as I said religion to most was man’s way of reaching to God involving rules, regulations and ritual. I understand how many are turned off to that. I also said that God’s definition of true religion was visiting orphans and widows in their distress or “the love” of others, especially those who are most vulnerable in our society.
    The unborn are orphans. Orphans are those who were brought into this world by parents and then lost that relationship either due to the parents’ death or their abandomnet of the child. IN both instances, teh baby is now at the mercy of the world.
    Abortion is the most extreme example of abandonment. You can rationalize that a fetus is not a baby and therfore, not considered an orphan. This is a smoke screen and a deliberate way of deceiving oneself due to the unwillingness to recognize the truth and the resulting requirement to change.
    It’s ridiculous to think that personhood is defined by the position of the baby’s navel relative to the mother’s navel. One second it’s not a baby and a foot later, it is a baby. Sorry, that baby had a God-ordained purpose before it was ever conceived. Because the baby existed in God’s mind, made that baby an eternal being not subject to the limits of time and space. The baby was in God’s mind since eternity. Personhood is not defined by time/space coordinates.
    I hope that God cares for you enough to chastise you so that you will realize the error of your way. Perhaps He knows you won’t change and has done everything to try to reach you. I hope not. That’s like standing at the edge of a 10,000 foot cliff that you don’t know is there in pitch dark, not realizing that your next step could end in a disaster all the while people who care about you warning you of the peril. It is pitiful and very, very frightening to watch someone be so unknowingly committed to self-destruction.
    You may have read the entire Bible, however, it’s not a book to be read. Since it is an infinitey layered, spiritually discerned book, it is to be meditated on, studied, breathed in, and digested as if it were your lifeblood and that with an open mind. It’s no wonder it had no effect on you.
    You belief system is prejudiced because you have made conclusions about God without really dedicating or surrendering yourself to the possiblity that the God of the Bible is real. Perhaps you have mistakely blamed God for something that wasn’t His fault. That’s like biting the hand that feeds you.
    Less, I really feel sorry for you because you are so hard-hearted. It’s hard for me to understand how someone gets like this, especially in light of the Word of God which expresses, no shoouts out His love for everyone. The earth is filled with the glory of the Lord. You really should examine who you are following because if you find out too late there my not be a way back.

  221. If I saw someone assaulting you, I’d probably know nothing about them other than that they’re willing to abuse you violently. As I know nothing [else] about them, I suppose you’d have it that I should show due deference, smile, and be on my way.
    Haven’t heard about the Bystander Intervention theory. Sorry for the ignorance. If someone was assaulting you I’d kick their ass at risk to myself — at least, until you’d intervene verbally to upbraid me for being such a judgmental boor.
    I’m such a Neanderthal that way, ignorant of all these high-falutin’ theories to quantify sub-human disregard for each other. Maybe I can be educated into such callous disregard. Doubtless your low view of my lack of indifference will help me on my way.

  222. HisMan, I was baptized Catholic and recieved First Communion at the age of twelve. I had my first confession at the age of thirteen. When I was fifteen, my parish got a new priest: a priest who had been accused of raping a nun and fathering a child by her. There were protests outside my church for months, while the bishop refused to do anything. Ultimately, the priest, turned off by the amount of media attention the story was getting, resigned the commission. It was then that I realized that the church really doesn’t care about its people: if it had, the priest would have been throughly investigated when the incident took place, and stripped of his rank. Instead, he was protected by mother church.
    After this, I refused to continue with confirmation classes, and searched out another church to join. I began attending a Lutheran church with my fiance, and thought that was it: until the priest condemned homosexuality and all that practiced it. As I’ve never been that bigoted, I refuse to join an institution that is. I refuse to be seen that way. I did reserach, discovered that none of Christianity fit with my personal beliefs, and left the religion for good. If God doesn’t like the fact that I have premarital sex, if he doesn’t like the fact that I support abortion, if he doesn’t like the fact that I refuse to accept his teachings blindly, that’s fine. I’m too tired of him and the way he is portrayed on eart to care. If he is so petty that he will send me to hell for those transgressions, fine. I don’t care. Until such time as it’s proven that God is actually the meglomaniac that you people insist he is, I will continue to do what I do, believing that he’d prefer I live my life well and fully, enjoying the gift that I have been given, and helping those around me to enjoy it as well.
    Perhaps you do see abortion as the greatest abandonment: that’s great, I don’t particularly care, you have every right to believe as you do. But the moment, the very second, that you attempt to legally force a woman to have a baby, to legally force a rape victim to carry her attacker’s child to term, is where you offend every womanly sense I’ve been given, every moral code I have. You find me pathetic? I find the fact that you blindly adhere to your faith without considering any alternatives to be utterly foul. I am repulsed by the fact that you can sleep at night, thinking that you would force your own daughter into slavery to her womb.
    I’ve considered all my alternatives, reserached nearly every religion there is. I’ve found one that makes me feel complete, feel happy. I am at peace with myself, moreso than I ever was while in your kind’s company. For once, I am not repulsed by my own hypocricy. I am content with my morality, and feel no need to force it upon others.
    I’m sorry that you’re so insecure in your own tenants that you feel the need to assure yourself that everyone either believes as you do, or they go to hell. I’m sorry that you are so insecure in your own faith that you feel the need to force it on others: the loudest praisers have the most doubt, and I am quite sure that you are no different. We all have our shadows, HisMan, our dark places. Perhaps doubt is yours, and the symptom is your rabid insistance on your “truth.”

  223. Less,
    Rebellion does blind one.
    Seems to me you were looking for Him in all the wrong places. I was a Catholic too, however, I didn’t give up searching for Him. And I am not saying God can’t be found in a Catholic Church. I too tried to stay in the Catholic Church. Our search for Him can’t be half-hearted or a weak or feeble attempt, it must be done with all your heart. Never taking no for an answer and that with all your might. You either want Him or you don’t. It’s obvious you don’t and are willing to give the only thing you have, your soul, in exchange for being your own god. You’re ripping yourself off. You’re trading a loaf of bread to live on for a week when you could own the entire bakery, no, the city. It’s a fool’s deal.
    I really believe you do believe in God, however, you feel that He’s let you down. No, He hasn’t, people have and you’re blaming the wrong person. Who do you think keeps your heart beating and your lungs breathing? It ain’t you.
    When you blow off hell with such a cavalier attitude I think this is foolish and very immature. Go turn on your stove and put your hand over a burner for a few minutes and tell me if your attitude doesn’t change. Becasue you don’t believe there’s a hell doesn’t change the facts. The proof that there’s a hell is that there is evil in the world and everything in the physical world tells me that good is rewarded adn evil is punished. And if you believe there’s a hell and simply don’t care that you’re going there, now c’mon, that’s just plain stupid or you think it’s not a bad place. Who wants to burn forever? Have you ever been swindled? It’s obvious that you have but don’t realize it yet. It’s called believing a lie.
    Doubt, sure I doubt, I’m human, especially when things get tough and I wonder where He is. When loved onex die, when realtionships are strained, when people betray you, it’s normal to ask, “God, where were you”? Sorry, He’s not a vending machine or genie in a bottle available at our beck and call, although He promises to be with us forver.
    I have found that He is faithful. I woould rather go throuogh life with Him and have nothing, gaining everything than to have everything, lose Him and lose everything.
    I always remember the stories of the saints that went before me. How Joeseph persavered and was rewarded beyond his wildest dreams. Same story for everyone who trusted and that’s the lesson. Can I trust in a Holy God who claims to love me in a world so full of negative stuff that wants to negate his existence.
    If there is a devil who hates you and wants to kill, steal, and destroy your destiny, would you expect the world to be any different? The conditon of the world proves his existence. God pleads with us to believe Him. No it’s not insecurity, it’s honestly realizing who I am and admitting I need a Savior. Is that insecure? Perhaps, but, it’s a solid investment and the returns are out of this world.

  224. Less: Finding a religion that “makes you happy” sounds pretty consumeristic. If what you’re looking for is transcendence and not merely validation of whatever nature/nurture perspectives you possess (as do we all), you could do better.
    “Happiness” is by definition elusive: perHAPS, HAPpenstance, HAPless, HAPhazard. Why some people think their quest for it can escape its etymology remains a mystery to me.
    You are aware, aren’t you, that “the pursuit of happiness” was a bone Jefferson threw to the American unlanded class in spite of Locke? That it’s all a crock? ;-)

  225. Less wrote: You can’t judge an entire segment of people by a few bad guys. I wouldn’t say that all priests are child molesters, I know that to be untrue. So knock off the accusations unless a) you can back it up with evidence, and b) you can prove that the vast majority of abortion doctors are rapists/hate women.
    Then Less wrote: HisMan, I was baptized Catholic and recieved First Communion at the age of twelve. I had my first confession at the age of thirteen. When I was fifteen, my parish got a new priest: a priest who had been accused of raping a nun and fathering a child by her. There were protests outside my church for months, while the bishop refused to do anything. Ultimately, the priest, turned off by the amount of media attention the story was getting, resigned the commission. It was then that I realized that the church really doesn’t care about its people: if it had, the priest would have been throughly investigated when the incident took place, and stripped of his rank. Instead, he was protected by mother church.
    So you are blaming the ENTIRE catholic church, and gave on God, because of the horrible acts of a few men, even though you just said that “you can’t judge an entire segment of people by a few bad guys”.

  226. Yeah. The insanity of the moral inversion: she’s willing to smear good priests while defending professional assassins of the unborn almost by reflex.

  227. Less:
    You used a striking phrase — “slavery to her womb.”
    My opinion is that women who adopt such language concerning the relationship between unborn human life and the mother who alone is capable of nurture at that stage… well, my opinion is that such women have serious issues. I mean, serious. You can hardly be at peace with who you were born as — a woman with a womb — if you view the nurturing role of maternity the same way we classify terrorism (asymmetric warfare).
    You say you’re happy. Heaven help you if you’ve found an opiate powerful enough to induce euphoria while in possession of such a miserable view of maternity.

  228. Rasqual, I completely agree. I think that anyone who views life in such a way is deluding themselves if they think they’re happy.

  229. Less –
    “HisMan, I was baptized Catholic and recieved First Communion at the age of twelve. I had my first confession at the age of thirteen. ”
    Do you know what is wrong with this statement?

  230. I do. First of all, she would have had to make her first confession in order to make her first communion.
    Secondly, if she was that old, she would have had to go through some version of the RCIA program and they would have had her make all three on the same day.
    Fishier and fishier…
    mk

  231. Not to mention, how is a person “raised” Catholic when she admits to only being Catholic (post her first confession) for two years?

  232. Less,
    As I’ve never been that bigoted,
    You certainly sound bigoted. I can’t imagine anyone hating the Catholic church more than you do. You threw out 2000 years of history because of one bad priest and then call us bigoted?
    mk

  233. For the record,
    When I say “pro-abortion”, it is not to put anyone in a “negative” light. I mean those that believe abortion is right, at least in some cases.
    ~janet

  234. Rasqual, have you ever heard of the Bystander Intervention theory? It’s basically the psychological concept that ultimately, people don’t care about each other anyway. Frankly, if I was getting violently assulted, in all likiness my neighbors wouldn’t care anyway, unless I was particularly loud about it.
    Wow, where do you live, if the people around you are this callous and unfeeling?
    I know for a fact that any of my neighbors, if they knew any kind of assault was happening to me or anyone in my family, they would be helping in a heartbeat, either by calling the cops or coming and intervening themselves!

  235. I also know that if any of my neighbors was being abused, assaulted, attacked, etc, and I knew about it…. I would be doing whatever I could to help them.

  236. hey folks,
    have a very hard time faulting Less over this
    ‘stupidity’ in spiritual confusion …. I personally know of a much worse scenario. We tell people two things: 1) that the Catholic church was founded by Christ close to 2000 years ago … but because love is not bound by time is (presently) the Church [and He invites us and identifies Himself in us as His kingdom – and we’re still not there!] (2) as part of this new life … we often become the only Bible people will ever see. Unfortunately, this is her experience of our faith. The best way to rid oneself of spiritual assault like this is join other people who are being assaulted each minute.
    Less, give a kid dying of cancer a hug … he/she’ll likely thank you … but you’ll know inside that that hug gave you your life back! [Having great sex doesn’t even come close!]

  237. But it’s precisely that kind of caring that Less finds problematic. Notice that she didn’t really respond to my question about whether she would prefer to have neighbors who are as indifferent to her well-being as she imagines we should be to the well-being of the unborn we claim to value.
    She doesn’t understand that expecting pro-life people to be indifferent to unborn life (indifferent enough to be tolerant of the practice of abortion) is to ask them to adopt an ethical posture that would require a substantial enough personal change that they would also be indifferent to whether she was being beaten to a pulp or raped.
    It’s impossible for a person of integrity to be indifferent to one thing they highly value and not to another thing they highly value, if the fundamental reasons for valuing that thing are identical. She’s alive, the unborn child is alive. She’s human, the unborn child is human. ERGO, pro-life people care about them both. If she wants us to be indifferent to the unborn, the underlying reasons must be discarded. Voila! We no longer care about her, either.
    I suspect her commitment to abortion rights would compell her to use the female “F” word. “Fine. Then hate me. But just let me have my rights.”
    Some people will welcome any lunacy if only to stave off challenges to their world view.

  238. Whoops. “that kind of caring” was alluding to Bethany’s brief post. You’re too fast for me, John. ;-)

  239. @MK: I was baptized Catholic a month after birth, however, at the church I went to, you had first communion in 2nd grade and first reconciliation in 3rd grade. Unfortunately, due to moving so much as a kid I didn’t have first communion until I was in 4th grade, so in that case I had first reconciliation before I had first communion and I did have to take special classes in addition to my normal “faith formation” courses (which were just as pointless as the normal classes…more so even) in order to have my first communion. So Less could be telling the truth.
    I never had confirmation as I ended up moving (again…) the year I was to start taking the classes for it, and it was around this time that I told my parents I didn’t believe in God anyway and I stopped going to church then too.

  240. Valerie and MK, I got the dates wrong. I went back and looked over my diary, where I recorded it. I don’t know why I didn’t go through an RCIA program. I was on a military base when my entire family converted, and the Father there gave us all classes, my brother and I were baptized, did our confession, and took communion. I started confirmation classes a year later, then we moved. I refused to start them back up. I’ve never claimed to be a cradle Catholic, but Catholicism was the only religion I knew until I turned 18 and really started seraching.
    HisMan, I’ve not “given up on God.” I’ve revised my idea of what God is. I certainly believe in the God of the New Testament: I can’t remember a time where I haven’t. But frankly, if he’s worried about me having premarital sex and being pro-choice, well, perhaps he needs to watch the news more often. There’s far more important things to care about than my love life. And my brain stem keeps me breathing, actually.
    Rasquel, my belief set gives me plenty of transcendence. Without a greater view of life and suffering, I frankly wouldn’t be happy. I wasn’t happy Christian because it didn’t give me any sort of transendence: it gave me a dogma and a few hymns and a book, and nothing else. It left me feeling empty. So I searched and I revised and I found something else.
    I’m really not too concerned that you believe that I have “serious issues” because I have no desire to get pregnant at any point. It’s called being more than one’s parts. I’m a female with a womb, and I’m perfectly fine with that. I have no desire to use my womb, however, and a forced pregnancy would be akin to slavery for me. If that means, to you, that I have problems, so be it. I’m really not too concerned.
    And frankly, I’d be more than happy to be left alone by neighbors, even if it did mean that they’d not call for help.
    Bethany, just because I don’t believe all priests are child molesters doesn’t mean I like them all. They’re part of a system I highly dislike and think is quite damaging: no, I don’t like most priests. If that’s bigoted, fine: I’d think pronouncing hellish judgements is far worse, but to each their own.
    John, I highly doubt that huging a child dying of cancer is going to change my worldview any more than having great sex is, though either would be nice.
    Also: These two links are about bystander intervention and what spurred psychologists to investigate it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_intervention

  241. “@MK: I was baptized Catholic a month after birth, however, at the church I went to, you had first communion in 2nd grade and first reconciliation in 3rd grade. ”
    Rae – this is 100% against church doctrine. This is the sacraments that we are talking about, something that is taken very seriously. You cannot have communion without confession first. It’s that simple. If, indeed, your church did it that way, the Bishop would be in violation of Church teachings, which would be very unusual. Unless you and Less were in the same district with the same Bishop.

  242. Less –
    Being on a military base explains not haveing RCIA. If they don’t have a big group wanting to join the Church, they have the priest go over everything that would be done in classes. Sometimes a religious educator is hard to find around the bases so most Bishop’s will allow this.
    (My sister’s husband is a Marine and she has been a “Godmother” to many of her friends.)

  243. Bethany, just because I don’t believe all priests are child molesters doesn’t mean I like them all. They’re part of a system I highly dislike and think is quite damaging: no, I don’t like most priests. If that’s bigoted, fine: I’d think pronouncing hellish judgements is far worse, but to each their own.
    You were right, Rasqual!

  244. @Valerie
    Then perhaps I didn’t really pay attention that closely, I could be wrong, but I clearly remember preparing for my first reconciliation when I was 9 (I was bawling the whole time I was at the church because I was pretty sure the priest was gonna tell me I was a horrible little girl and that I was in fact gonna go to Hell no matter what) and I recall most of the kids in my church had already had first communion (unlike myself).
    So I guess I went to a crummy Catholic church…but I dunno, Archbishop Harry Flynn came to our church for our 75th Anniversary and I was an alter-girl for that service (I got to hold his big ol’ sliver staff, it was nice and cool compared to the hot little room they stuffed all us alter servers and priests). *shrugs*

  245. No Less, you can’t get out of it that easy. You said that it was entirely the priests’ fault that you have the poor judgement of the church. You fault the whole church based on what the priest said. Here is your quote again:
    “HisMan, I was baptized Catholic and recieved First Communion at the age of twelve. I had my first confession at the age of thirteen. When I was fifteen, my parish got a new priest: a priest who had been accused of raping a nun and fathering a child by her. There were protests outside my church for months, while the bishop refused to do anything. Ultimately, the priest, turned off by the amount of media attention the story was getting, resigned the commission. It was then that I realized that the church really doesn’t care about its people: if it had, the priest would have been throughly investigated when the incident took place, and stripped of his rank. Instead, he was protected by mother church.”

  246. Bethany: Good close reading of Less on the logic — and on the F word. ;-)
    Less:
    “And frankly, I’d be more than happy to be left alone by neighbors, even if it did mean that they’d not call for help.”
    I’m not sure I believe that. Sometimes what people say isn’t very sincere. If that IS sincere — yes, you have issues. You’re not the Ayn Rand uberfraulein you imagine. That’s because the world isn’t a place where that’s possible.

  247. Less –
    “I don’t like most priests”
    I’ve got some priest friends that you need to meet! ;-) Fr. John wears a harley davidson leather jacket (given to him by parishaner) and never shaves his beard. He rides a motorcycle with no helmet (angering most parents) and listens to Metalica and Creed.
    Fr. Brenden is a priest from Nigeria (America is their place for missionary work!) and he likes to crack jokes in the middle of his sermon to see if the congregation is listening.
    Fr. Ted likes to sing and he loves 70’s music so he can usually find a way to sneak a 70’s song into his sermons.
    Fr. Mel – well… he has no PC in him at all. He assisted the religious educator is RCIA and was as hysterical as any comedian.
    I didn’t learn to appreciate all that priests sacrafice and do for their congregation until I got to know them on a more personal basis. I’m not saying you will get to know one and all of a sudden want to be Catholic. I’m just letting you know that the bad priest always outshadow the good ones.

  248. Less, I’m curious… do you dislike the public school system and think is quite damaging to children as well?
    From CBS news:
    “Consider the statistics: In accordance with a requirement of President Bush

  249. Good grief.
    As for me, I’m always amazed at the pro-choice people I’ve met who think education vouchers are from the pit of an adverse hedonic calculus (that’s all an ethic of enlightened self-interest can fall to in the absence of hell ;-)
    That anyone could advocate in the name of liberty for the destruction of unborn children, while not supporting liberty for parents of born children who would like to opt out of the hegemony of the public education system in a way that’s financially doable for them, is stoned on serious recreational pharmaceuticals. Or they’re dogs in the manger. Something.

  250. I could not agree more, Rasqual…the hypocrisy is staggering. If these truly supported “choice”, then they would have absolutely no problem with education vouchers!

  251. Less:
    One more question/thought:
    “a priest who had been accused of raping a nun and fathering a child by her. There were protests outside my church for months, while the bishop refused to do anything. Ultimately, the priest, turned off by the amount of media attention the story was getting, resigned the commission”
    Were the accusations true?
    I would like to draw your attention to St. Gerard:
    http://www.cssr.com/english/saintsblessed/stmajella.shtml
    “in a letter to St. Alphonsus, the superior of Gerard, she accused the latter of sins of impurity with the young daughter of a family at whose house Gerard often stayed on his missionary journeys.”
    “Gerard was called by St. Alphonsus to answer the accusation. Instead of defending himself, however, he remained silent, following the example of his divine Master. In the face of his silence, St. Alphonsus could do nothing but impose a severe penance on the young religious. Gerard was denied the privilege of receiving holy Communion, and forbidden all contact with outsiders.”
    “Some time later Neria fell dangerously ill and wrote a letter to St. Alphonsus confessing that her charges against Gerard had been sheer fabrication and calumny. ”
    For some reasons, some of the accused priest have followed Gerard’s actions. (BTW – born 1726; died 1755) Gerard said that he knew that God would protect him and that he did not want to tarnish the image of the girl which is why we was silent.
    So, when someone says accused priest, I like to know if there is any truth to the accusation. If you notice, many of the priest that are NOW being accused are dead. They cannot defend themselves. There are lists of deceased priests names on the internet for people to use for “accusations”. At first I thought “who would accuse a priest and it not be true” then I found out people frauded charities for 9/11 victims. People frauded charities for Hurricane Katrina victims. Anyone will do anything for money.

  252. Less,
    I love my church. When I see something going on there that shouldn’t be I stand up and say “Hey, that ain’t right”
    I don’t run away with my tail between my legs whining that the bad priest made me do it.
    If you believe in something then you fight for it.
    No offense to the protestants, but this is where Martin Luther fell short. Was he right about a lot of things? Yep…but instead of fighting with in the church to change things, he split the church down the middle. Had he just waited it out, God would have fixed everything. As a matter of fact He did fix the stuff Martin was complaining about.
    You defend what you believe in. You don’t desert it.

  253. Less,
    I wasn’t happy Christian because it didn’t give me any sort of transendence: it gave me a dogma and a few hymns and a book, and nothing else. It left me feeling empty. So I searched and I revised and I found something else.
    Perhaps she left you feeling empty because you didn’t understand her. Many people think that they understand the church (because they belonged to it at one time, or they have read the bible) but the truth is they don’t hate the church, they hate what they think the church is.
    You say it didn’t GIVE you any transcendence but what did you put into it. You say you gave it a fair shake, but then you had to go and look up in your diary when the “most important” moments of your faith took place. Couldn’t have made a lasting impression…
    I think you need to look at the whole thing again with new eyes and fresh insight. You’ve go nothing to lose, and possibly a whole lot to gain.
    You say you believe the new testament, but not the old. How does one separate them? One is completely dependent on the other in order to make sense.
    You sound more confused than anything.

  254. MK:
    “No offense to the protestants, but this is where Martin Luther fell short. Was he right about a lot of things? Yep…but instead of fighting with in the church to change things, he split the church down the middle.”
    No offense taken — I’m a pretty ecumenical Evangelical, and us “separated brethren” look forward to the eventual reunion (here or There ;-)
    But I believe Luther’s life was in jeopardy, so hangin’ out was a doubtful option. Also, his initiative was leveraged by others, so our split wasn’t even mostly of his doing.
    I believe much of the problem could be laid at the feet of his contemporary capitalist friends — which makes the last pope’s encyclicals on capitalism all the more interesting.
    Someone once said that as far as Catholics and Protestants are concerned, we’re closest to each other when, instead of meeting at the margins of our traditions, we each drive into the heart of our respective traditions. Why? Because if we’re appreciating our traditions’ centers properly, that’s where Christ is. And he’s the one who’s given us a unity that temporal ecclesial divisions cannot sunder.
    So we may be SEPARATED brethren — but we’re separated BRETHREN. That’s encouraging. :-)

  255. rasqual,
    Absolutely.
    I was just trying to illustrate the damage that can be done when you cut and run instead of stay to the bitter end.
    Which is what Less did. She met one priest that was a bad apple and instead of standing up for her church, she quit.
    Luther most certainly was not a perfect example.
    I remember somebody saying to me once that the only way there would ever be world peace is if the world was attacked from outside…then we would be forced to join together to fight the common enemy.
    The abortion issue has actually done quite a lot to unify us against the secular world. God and His mysterious ways again…

  256. We Evangelicals were clueless, though, before Francis Schaeffer and Surgeon General C. Everett Koop lit a fire under us.
    Can you imagine a Surgeon General of his stature arising today? Good grief. I can’t even name the current one.

  257. @MK and Valerie: I’m just curious how one goes about to be excommunicated? I was thinking today that I should probably be excommunicated due to my pro-choice beliefs, the fact that I’m pro-gay marriage (and I don’t see homosexuality as a sin), I took communion when I didn’t believe in God, I have openly criticized Catholicism, among other things.

  258. I’m not Catholic, so I have no idea what the official Church doctrine states, but I would tell you to simply stop receiving communion until you feel that doing so will not be “drinking your damnation”. I would say pray about it, and see what God directs. Also, talk to a priest and find out the appropriate course of action that lines up with Church teachings.

  259. Rae –
    That won’t get you excommunicated. The woman who ran Catholics for Choice wasn’t excommunicated and neither is Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry……
    I have no idea what someone has to do. Why don’t you just leave the Church? Why be excuminicated? That seems a bit extreme.
    Now, if you were Hitler, then you may have something……

  260. Rae,
    EXCOMMUNICATION. An ecclesiastical censure by which one is more or less
    excluded from communion with the faithful. It is also called , especially if
    it is inflicted with formal solemnities on persons notoriously obstinate to reconciliation.
    Some excommunicated persons are (to be avoided), others
    (tolerated). No one is unless that person has been publicly excommunicated
    by name by the Holy See, and it is expressly stated that the person is “to be avoided.”
    Anyone who lays violent hands on the Pope is automatically .
    In general, the effects of excommunication affect the person’s right to receive the
    sacraments, or Christian burial, until the individual repents and is reconciled with the
    Church. In order for an excommunication to take effect, the person must have been
    objectively guilty of the crime charged. (Etym. Latin , from + , to
    communicate: , exclusion from a community.)
    (Modern Catholic Dictionary by John A. Hardon, S.J., Doubleday & Company, Inc.)
    ************************************************
    1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe
    ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise
    of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted,
    according to canon law except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized
    by them.68 In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing
    confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69
    (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
    **********************************
    So I guess the answer is that you already are excommunicated. Perhaps you should asking how to get unexcommunicated?

  261. Thanks for the information.
    What I am trying to do is cut all my ties with Catholicism as I don’t agree with it nor its tenets and I honestly want nothing to do with it anymore. I figured that excommunication meant that you were kicked out/banned from going to church and that you were more or less “unbaptized”, but I see this is not the case. I did a little of my own research and I guess I misunderstood what excommunication was. Is there a way I can officially leave the church? Or do I just make sure I don’t go anymore?

  262. You look for the sign that says “exit” and you walk through it. It’s one of the simpler rituals in our church.

  263. Alrighty. Then I suppose I just won’t go anymore.
    So what should I do if my grandparents make me go? Yeah…I do realize that I am 19 years old and they really *can’t* tell me what to do, but they feel that I need to go and I feel guilty *not* going. So should I tell them about not going and stuff? I mean, they know I don’t believe, but I go to church out of respect for my grandparents.
    *shrugs*

  264. Hey,
    You never know. Something might rub off. (Don’t worry, you can always take a shower afterwards. Get all those Catholic cooties off :)
    Seriously tho, do whatever you feel comfortable with. If you are doing a kindness for them and it is out of love, no one is going to hunt you down and throw you out.
    Ultimately, it’s really between you and God. I don’t know what’s in your heart. Only you do.
    I wish I could give you the gift of faith, as do your grandparents, but it doesn’t work that way.
    You’ll either stumble across it yourself or not. You’re a smart girl. You’ll figure it out.
    mk

  265. I took this quiz one night, just for fun, just to see what religion I get based on my beliefs and I had some of my friends take it and it was interesting to see what religions people came up with. For instance, it was right when it guessed my Reformed Jewish friends were Reformed Jews…it was surprisingly accurate and was just sort of fun to take:
    http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
    I’m willing to bet that Catholicism will pop up for you. :)

  266. Rae –
    There is no way to be “unbaptised”. Once your baptised, its for life. (I believe this is true in many religions.)
    Have you been confirmed?
    Baptism is your parents saying they will raise you in accordance to the teachings, confirmation is you agreeing to live by the teachings. (This is extremely simplified).
    If you have not been confirmed, then you don’t have to worry, you have never said you would live the teachings of Christ and the Church. If you were confirmed, then that means you are a member of the Church.
    Once you are Catholic, you are always considered Catholic. If you noticed above, you can be unexcommunicated.
    Basically, walk away. There is no need to announce your departure. The door is always open for you to return if you want to (yes, I had to put that in there).

  267. Thanks Valerie. No, I was never confirmed. Though I know the door is open, I honestly think that if I do believe in God again, I won’t go back to Catholicism, it just doesn’t mesh with me well.
    Above, I noticed that somebody was against treating religion in a consumeristic fashion…has anybody ever heard of “Religious Marketplace Theory”? It’s about looking at religion from an economics point of view.

  268. I come up a latter day saint. Go figure. Only 92% Catholic. But I’m way tired and it’s possible I read something wrong.
    What did you come up?

  269. I came up as 100% Universalist Unitarian and Catholicism was 11%! Eep! Secular Humanism and Liberal Quakers came up next as well as Theravada Buddhism. Reformed Judaism was also quite high up there as well.

  270. Rae –
    My Dad was just like your Grandparents when I left the Church. I told him that out of respect for him I would go to Church, but I wouldn’t go to communion. That seemed to work out the best without any major arguments.
    I took that test a while ago. It came out something about Hindu for me. I will retake it, but tomorrow, too tired. Perhaps I forgot to take my meds the day it came out as hindu. But it did get me looking into that religion. Quite fascinating. But, I said I would never go back to the Catholic faith, and here I am. Go figure.

  271. oh – And since you were never confirmed, then I don’t think you can be excommunicated. YOU never said you would live that life.
    I could be wrong though.

  272. @ Valerie: Hinduism fascinates me! I work with a guy who is Hindu as he grew up in India and he is always asking me about Christianity (he finds Catholicism and Protestantism so foreign and interesting…as they have very few Christians there). I had never met a person who was Hindu before and I like asking him questions about it. If I could, I would be Hindu, but I like eating beef too much. :-3

  273. I think Hinduism is less of a faith than a way of living. I know you have to pick certain paths and follow them. And there are three main gods with many minor ones.
    It’s a very complicated religion. I used to teach Hindu kids. Language was a problem but the parents would teach me what they could.
    I LOVE bollywood movies. Lots of Hindu colors!

  274. oh – And since you were never confirmed, then I don’t think you can be excommunicated. YOU never said you would live that life.
    Good point Val.
    Hah, forget the exit sign, look for an entrance sign. Welcome back…
    teasing, i’m just teasing!

  275. I’m getting pretty tired… It’s late for me, but with this knee thingy I have a hard time sleeping…stupid dog.
    And where is everybody? It’s so quiet on here tonight. What, Cameron got tossed and now the party is over?
    I’ll be back in the morning…
    mk

  276. Bethany, that particular priest had been moved from parish to parish due to his conduct, and each time the bishop covered for him. The Vatican has called homosexuality evil, and the most bigoted people I

  277. Wow,
    Sans the pro-life issue, you just described me to a “T” 15 years ago. Right down to the tarot and tea leaves.
    I was just testy earlier. It’s been a rough couple of days. My son lost his job, I’m on crutches and I’m not sleeping well because of the pain. Not looking for sympathy, just forgiveness. You know, I too am only human. I know, I know, it’s hard to believe I admit it…but I do, and I am.
    Peace?
    mk

  278. @Valerie: I have seen the movie “Gandhi”…watched it in high school twice (once for a class, the other for some background information on a paper I was going to write…it was surprisingly historically accurate…though I didn’t use it as a source, more as a method of gathering my thoughts). It was a good movie, a bit long but good. :D
    Though I talked to my Hindu friend Indraneel about Gandhi and he’s not quite as revered there as he is here as he kind of screwed some things up for India somehow (I’m not sure how exactly, I’ll ask him, but he did say that Gandhi was a bit hypocritical at times because he allegedly beat his wife).
    @MK: I’ve never seen a Bollywood movie, but I would love to…they do look so bright! Have you ever seen “Moulin Rouge”? I love the end it is very Bollywood and I like that so many of those movies are musicals. Hindi music is gorgeous!

  279. Less:
    “I currently live in an all-female dorm and am surrounded by freshman girls in sororities, ”
    I am so sorry!! Is there any kind of support group for you! I would go absolutely insane!
    I have a couple decks of tarot cards. I kinda got into them a couple years ago after my son was born. It was fun, but they were always wrong. They actually helped me bring my creative side back though, so I keep them around for fun.
    I just don’t understand why you think your belief’s don’t fit in the Catholic Church? hmmm….
    (yes, sarcasm… I got to go to bed!)

  280. MK, peace. I’m content with my religious beliefs, and would absolutely love if they weren’t brought in to every possible argument in every possible way. I’m fairly testy myself, to be honest: last week of school. I have every possible paper imaginable, as I’m taking extra classes, whereas everyone else seems to be fitting into a week a month of partying. There’s only so much I can take when I’m awakened every morening at three by my stumbling drunk neighbors. >_

  281. Rae –
    “I’m not sure how exactly, I’ll ask him, but he did say that Gandhi was a bit hypocritical at times because he allegedly beat his wife”
    I know the very raticals didn’t like something about him having India paying Pakistan for something. This is one of the reasons he was assisnated.
    Beating his wife? nope. didn’t happen. Mahatma isn’t is first name. It is his title (you may know this.) Mahatma means :
    1. In India and Tibet, one of a class of persons venerated for great knowledge and love of humanity.
    2. Mahatma Hinduism Used as a title of respect for a person renowned for spirituality and high-mindedness.
    He is considered a prophet. In many religions other than Hindu. If he were Catholic he would be on his way to being a Saint. He believed and practiced Satya and Ahimsa. Truth and nonviolence. Your friend may have more of the ‘radical’ belief’s. As there are people in this world that many feel are of greatness, there are many who feel they were not. A woman that I admire greatly is Mother Teresa and she had some wicked enemys. Many people believe the lies that were told about her and preach them. I was so devestated when I heard these lies that I started my own research. It took awhile to get the truth, but it was well worth the time to research as I learned so much about the world and myself.

  282. @Valerie: He’s no radical I can tell you that much, he’s pretty chill about most things. However, I don’t work until May 14th (taking the week off to move home and finals) but when I get back to work, I’ll ask him precisely why Gandhi isn’t quite so popular at home compared to the rest of the world (though he is still revered, they also acknowledge his faults as he was only human).
    I know that he practiced nonviolence, but you have to remember in Indian society, women were to be subservient to their husbands, they were seen as property and although Gandhi may have disagreed with this idea he was raised thinking that and I’m sure he slipped up at times (as I said before, he was only human). I have done my research on Gandhi and there is definitely evidence he may have hit his wife on occasion (I think “beat her” was probably too strong…as I don’t think he beat her really).
    *shrugs*

  283. Bethany, that particular priest had been moved from parish to parish due to his conduct, and each time the bishop covered for him. The Vatican has called homosexuality evil, and the most bigoted people I

  284. Rae
    “I’ll ask him precisely why Gandhi isn’t quite so popular at home compared to the rest of the world ”
    I have absolutely no idea what you keep talking about with this.
    In India his birthday is a national holiday, They refer to him as Mahatma, In 1996 the Indian government began putting his picture on their money and today his portrait is on ALL forms of curancy per the people’s request. Every year India gives out the “Mahatma Ghandi Peace Prize”. The house that he was assisinated in and the room that he spent the last four months of his life is preserved. OH, AND the Indian people refer to him as the Father of the Nation.
    Exactly where is it that they don’t find him popular? I’m sure I missed alot of how they respect his memory.
    “but you have to remember in Indian society, women were to be subservient to their husbands, they were seen as property and although Gandhi may have disagreed with this idea he was raised thinking that and I’m sure he slipped up at times (as I said before, he was only human). ”
    The reason he was considered a feminist for his time was because of how he treated his wife and referred to her in public. She accompanied him on many of his travels, almost unheard of back then. On the travels she helped to educate the woman and children of India and was also arrested during a protest. Was there problems in their marriage at the beginning, before he found enlightenment. Yes. After he found enlightenment, No. One cannot be a hypocrite because they saw their error and corrected it.
    You’re talking about a man who was married and in 1906 they began a life of celibacy because he wanted to learn love and not be full of lust. She didn’t die until 1944 being celibate the whole time. He also fasted on many occasions, not eating anything for weeks. This is a man who had self-control. Not a man who gave into his temptations.
    When I said your friend may be ‘ratical’ I did not mean in the “going to be a suicide bomber” type thing. I just meant different belief’s than what is considered the norm. Kinda like Jehova’s Witness are to Christians. Not an insult, just not the norm.
    “I have done my research on Gandhi and there is definitely evidence he may have hit his wife on occasion”
    I would like to see the evidence. I have done research myself and I have applied many of his teachings to my life. There is a reason Martin Luther King would refer to him his some of his writings and speaches.
    When you talk to your friend, you may want to have him give you some evidence. Most of the critisism some have on him is that he would say and write one thing and then in his politics he would seem to bend these principals. The reason he would do this was to be bipartisan so there would be peace. Not much of a critisism if you ask me.

  285. I think it had a lot to do with Bhagat Singh and his desire not to play into the hands of corrupt Indian officials. He believed that Ghandi was trading one corrupt (English) government for another (Indian) and he predicted that if Ghandi got his way India would split down the religious middle…muslim/hindu. He was right. That’s why there is Pakistan…
    SEE:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagat_Singh

  286. Hello all. I was backtracking through the posts. I must say that I am flabbergasted that the pro-choice crowd claims to want what’s best for women, but when I posted about all of the corrupt abortionists, they told me to zip it. Why?? Sorry. I don’t believe the audacity of you guys. I told you guys about women being molested and raped by abortionists. You could have cared less.

  287. Erin, you said that the woman at PP was “sweet.” Please note that most females would have no interest in molesting a female. Dan, I clicked on your name and checked out your site. I see that you guys ask for donations. I also see that you give that money to PP.

  288. PS Dan, Please don’t tell me about dentists anymore. I can assure you there is a reason that you have heard about so many of them. Shame wouldn’t really be a factor in reporting a dentist for rape/molestation. Shame would be a HUGE factor for a woman NOT to report an abortionist.[She wouldn’t want everyone to know about the abortion.]

  289. “Above, I noticed that somebody was against treating religion in a consumeristic fashion…”
    Actually, much of contemporary religion probably should be treated consumeristically — because it IS consumeristic. An alternative would be to post 95 thesis (or some other number) on such organization’s web sites. ;-)
    Religions vary, but there’s only one reality. And reality isn’t something you choose. It’s something you’re born to understand.
    Or not.
    Less: You’re pretty much evading the fundamental issue for which neighborliness was merely an easily-understood example. You want us to be indifferent to the unborn. To do so, we’d have to give up values that prevent such indifference, but these are the same values that have us caring about anyone else. For us to think as you imagine we ought, you’d end up with people who couldn’t care less if you live or die.
    Do you believe it’s reasonable to expect pro-life people to be willing to become that sort of person? The issue is one of consistency — both for you, and for pro-life folk.
    “I absolutely refuse to be submissive to any male.”
    How about to a female? Not a rhetorical question. And in what sense? You already are submissive to males. And females. Everyone in the world is.
    “I don

  290. @Valerie: Then I suppose my information was incorrect and I’ll stop talking about it then.
    *shrugs*

  291. Bethany: I do hold teachers to a lower standard than priests. Priest are supposed to be serving God, and frankly, part of their vows (even though I disagree with it) is supposed to be celibacy. Not only did they betray those vows that they swore before God to uphold, they completely betrayed their position as leaders of the faith community.
    Abuse by those in power is never acceptable. It

  292. Less, do you not see how ridiculous it is to tell us we can be as “passionate about fetuses as [we’d]like” while claiming that we have gone too far when we actually try to protect the same children we care about?
    Imagine if it were legal to kill 13 year olds because they are known to have a detrimental affect on their parents mental and physical health (Boiling blood pressure!). No other group of humans have a get out of jail free card, but the governement decided that an exception should be made for 13 year olds.
    You find this abhorant. You can not believe the injustice that is being carried out upon these early teenagers. Would it be logical for me to tell you that you could be passionately concerned for these children, but must not question the legality of the situation? Doing so, I claim, would be a direct affront to the rights of the harried parents, who may very well die if their stress levels remain so high! Further more, I propose that you are “anti-parent” for your audacious view that 13 year olds should be protected.

  293. Also, I’ve read that teens are more likely to be victimized by the abortionist. Especially with no parental notification laws. It only makes sense doesn’t it? The teenager wants the truth hidden. The abortionist rapes her. The girl will never say a word. These guys know this.

  294. The women that finally did come forward against Brian Finkle were doubted severely at first….Or WERE they? Dr. Finkle told authorities that the accusations were all coming from “drug addicted women.” He argued that the women were upset with him, because he refused to write them prescriptions for narcotics. NOW and NARAL swept it under the rug. Why? Arizona needed an abortionist.

  295. Right you are rasquel. I am a woman, and I know so many men hurt from abortion. Unfortunatly,men don’t have a choice in the matter. Some of these guys would have made terrific fathers. They are killing off baby females too.

  296. Less, I would not. However, there you have it. A truck load of perverted abortionists. I’m not trying to change your views on children/motherhood. If you don’t want children, don’t have them. The least you could do is try to help protect your own gender. I don’t support abortion because it is murder. Anybody that would kill a child could be capable of most anything…. including rape and molestation.

  297. I’d have an abortion. Does that mean I’d rape someone? I’d like to see some statistics on that one, Heather4life.
    Point being, rape isn’t reported as people do attempt to find a way to blame the victim for the crime. It’s always “she was walking down a dark ally” or “she was dressed like she was asking for it.” Did you know that Italy has made rape less of a crime if you’re not a virgin? Tell me that’s not blaming the victim.

  298. Less:
    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm
    You’re welcome to cite yours as well. When you’re done, please count both sides of the ledger.
    “Therefore a child will actually have more of the mother than the father in it.”
    That’s a childish way of putting it, don’t you think? As if citing mito DNA was some kind of refutation of fatherhood.
    We disagree on who has a legitimate interest in the unborn, but I think you’re smart enough to see that this derives from our different views of whether the unborn is entitled to protection as a member of the human family or, as you’d have it, is a piece of disposable meat.
    Attitudes like yours kill life. Human life. Every day. It’s that stark.
    By the way, do you think men should be derided for working on cures for breast cancer? Maybe only women should be working on that, ya think? Come to think of it, why should my tax money be spent on something that only affects a woman’s body?
    Do you like that mirror held up to your logic?
    Oh. Dang, I forgot. You don’t mind a world where people don’t care about others. Oh well, so much for THAT reductio.

  299. Less, 5/3, 5:50p, said: “Did you know that Italy has made rape less of a crime if you’re not a virgin? Tell me that’s not blaming the victim.”
    Oh, you need to prove that one, Less.

  300. Personally, I wouldn’t doubt it. Italy is an almost politically insane country if ever there was one.

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