“Fetal trapping in Northern California”
Last month, we revewed and interpreted in-house artist Rae’s work, “Mandy goes to med school.”
Now I’m happy to have received permission from Michael Kohn Gallery in Los Angeles for us to review and attempt to interpret renown artist Mark Ryden’s work, “Fetal trapping in Northern California.”
“Fetal trapping” is part of the 44-year-old artist’s larger latest work, “The Tree Show.” According to Wikipedia, the centerpiece of this show, “TheTree of Life,” sold for $800k before the opening.
An LA City Beat art reviewer said of “Fetal trapping”:
[A] miniature Abe Lincoln has just pulled a newborn baby, still in its amniotic sac, from a tree as a red-haired girl looks on, bewildered. I can’t explain that one, and I didn’t even bother to ask.
Do you think you can explain it? The same rules apply as when we discussed “Mandy.” If you find the painting offensive or disagreeable, discuss it respectfully, and please do not disparage the artist’s obvious talent.
(Click to see enlarged view.)
[Hat tip: Bethany]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The style looks really familiar.
Oversized little girl (Abe seems normal size with respect to tree and fetus) immediately harkens to Alice in Wonderland. Compared to his other works, there is a striking lack of those apparently symbolic lesser subjects and accessories reminiscent of Dutch masters. Ultimately, I don
All I can say is this picture, and most of the artist’s other paintings that I checked out, are very disturbing. He is very talented, but the pictures creep me out.
I was also reminded of Alice in Wonderland – she goes through the rabbit hole and almost all of her choices have unintended consequences.
Additionally, the figure of Abraham Lincoln suggests a comparison between slavery and abortion – remember, slaves were considered not quite human too.
On the other hand, using a readily recognizable political figure “trapping” the fetus could also relate to the political trading of capital based on abortion stance, an image of reprimand for those politicians who probably don’t hold a firm stance on the issue but rather vote whichever way the polls indicate.
Mama Says
I thought of Alice in Wonderland too. But that’s as far as my interpretation goes. I am crap at interpreting artwork, and I usually end up thinking that all the “meaning” are made-up crap. So. I am not going to participate in this one. Seriously, you should have seen my at the Dali museum in Spain.
No denying this person’s talent, though. It is a very well-done and very interesting painting.
Leah,
What I hate most is walking through the museum or art show, and the artist has provided a three page essay to explain the significance/meaning of the art. Sometimes I wonder if they just did it to be funny. Look at the picture.. look at the title…. draw my impression about it.
I like this particular artist’s work, as it is both seemingly juvenile in nature (cartoonish/lowbrow/whimsical) yet gorey. It reminds me of Edward Gorey stuff…. or maybe Sheldon Silverstien for adults.
It does have a Bosch quality about it, without all the symbolic clutter.
I am honestly impressed by the level of art critique abilities here.
I have trouble with symbolism, I think. I was shocked as heck in high school when my English teacher explained all the hidden meanings in “Lord of the Flies.” I just thought it was a horrible story of boys gone wild.
I can’t distinguish fine wines either. A $4 bottle of Riunite Lambrusco is great.
The (very young) girl is bleeding,perhaps from an abortion. This leads me to believe he is making some statement on how abortion has influenced the youth of our society.
Another interesting thing to add: Many trees are vital to the well being of our planet and ecosystem, as well as symbols of growth and life, and ergo fertility.
Jill, I wondered about your ability to analyze symbolism when
you came up with that odd vinegar analogy. They
were mocking our Lord, not offering Him compassion.
Perhaps NRLC is mocking pro-lifers with their twisted
sedation murder act?
To me, the girl looks too young to have been pregnant. It appears that she has stumbled across this scene while playing in the forest, and is now having to choose how to handle it. Perhaps this is the artists’ statement about the abortion debate, and how it is candidly forced upon the very young. Maybe even because the fetus the girl is being shown is her younger brother…
Les, 8:25a: Before we address the second part of your comment, let’s address the first. To start, I was not employing the use of symbolism. I was making a comparison, employing analogy. It was:
Would you have opposed the Roman soldiers offering Jesus wine vinegar because although their killing him was legal, it was immoral?
Thus, if you think my analogy of fetal pain relief to Jesus’ potential pain relief on the cross is incorrect, tell me, and please explain how. And please simply answer the question, which you haven’t yet.
I’ve finally figured out who this artist reminds me of, and its Maggie Taylor http://www.maggietaylor.com/indexframe.html
She’s not a painter, but a “scanner as camera” artist.
Because he’s done a whole series on trees, I assume he has a love for them. I see this as kind of a “save the trees” type statement, now that the tree has a fetus it is now “worthy” to be saved.
“Thus, if you think my analogy of fetal pain relief to Jesus’ potential pain relief on the cross is incorrect, tell me, and please explain how.”
A fetus is in a coma.
Cam, for a doctorate biology candidate, you’re certainly ignorant of human development. You know less than a half-witted 101 student who scraped by with a C. Never let facts get in the way of ideology, as they say.
Jill,
For an unabashed ideological half-wit, it’s no surprise you’d invoke the factual without actually providing a fact. If you haven’t the facts, perhaps, instead of slinging nothing but insults, you might defend your analogy by creating another strawman and missrepresenting what you intended to mean in the original case… maybe the roman guards as abortion doctors???
A comatose fetus that responds to sound (and can differentiate between the mother’s voice and other sounds), sucks their thumb, and moves about freely…and will cry/interact to let physical and emotional needs be known once born.
What’s the definition of coma again?
If a 24 week gest. age baby can cry in pain outside the womb, why assume that the nervous system does not work inside the womb?
~ Jill ducks as Cam’s statement boomerangs ~
Cam, for an unabashed ideological half-wit, it’s no surprise you’d invoke the factual with actually providing a fact.
Milehimama, the definition of coma, you ask? Why I happen to have it right here in my Mosby’s medical dictionary, a book surely collecting dust next to Cam’s Bible on the bottom of a book pile, if he even has either.
Coma: “A state of profound unconsciousness, characterized by the absence of spontaneous eye movements, response to painful stimuli, and vocalization. The person cannot be aroused. Coma may be the result of trauma, space-occupying brain tumor, hematoma, toxic condition, acute infectious disease with encephalitis, vascular disease, poisoning, diabetic acidosis or intoxication.”
Jill,
Yes, and Terri Schiavo supposedly smiled and turned her head a lot.
I’m glad you can wield a dictionary jill, and I’ll stop telling you to buy one now. However, providing the definition of coma doesn’t do anything to counter my claim that a fetus is in a coma. You might want to exercize your critical analysis skills a little and maybe hit the primary literature. Or if those nasty science people are too much for your fanciful versions of factual, maybe just look-up Glasgow Coma Score and the Apgar score system based on it used for newborns.
Alas, I think it’s pretty funny you think your savior was about as aware/lucid as a fetus while hanging on the cross. Doesn’t say much for your savior.
Cameron, is a newborn infant in a coma?
I’ve used the Glasgow coma scale.
The average baby in the womb would score 10 out of 10 on the pediatric version- not in a coma.
4 points for eyes opening spontaneously (out of 4)
6 points for moving spontaneously (out of 6)
(Removing the verbal/cry portion, as it is not applicable to an infant without air in their lungs.)
Also, are you saying anyone in a coma for any reason at any time should be killed or is somehow not alive to begin with? I’m not sure I understand your point on the whole coma thing.
BreedingFlightAttendant,
I see you have no moral quams misrepresenting. You’ll fit in well here with the loons.
review spontaneous vs. reflexive
Blinking is reflexive, as are most fetal movements, and I would very much enjoy listening to you try to convince me, or anyone with half a brain, that a fetus “moves spontaneously or purposefully” per your 6 points.
Rub your two working brain cells together for a minute and actually think about it. Low oxygen, low glucose environment, no need for a flight response, and a huge demand on resources for development. Any activity comes at the expense of development and serves no purpose.
I don’t think a fetus would have much of any score prior to the third trimester, and even after that it’s not particularly meaningful considering they’re not self-aware.
“Also, are you saying anyone in a coma for any reason at any time should be killed or is somehow not alive to begin with?”
We were talking about efficacy of anesthetics.
I have seen fetal movement in response to outside stimuli – such as vigorous, angry movements in response to loud noises, and more gentle movements in response to softer noises.
Anyone with cable TV can see babies opening their eyes in response to noise, or sucking their thumb, or playing with their umbilical cord and responding to their environment.
I have not witnessed fetal response to pain firsthand, but I have viewed videotape of it as well.
Could you please direct me to the specific sources you reference to assert that fetal movements are not spontaneous, but rather are only reflexive? No need for a comprehensive look, just post your sources that fetal movement in the third trimester is solely reflexive.
Jill,
I’m not meaning to hijack your combox. Please feel free to delete any of my comments/posts if you feel things are getting out of hand.
Milehimama
Milehi, have at him… :)
Go Milehi!!!
“I have seen fetal movement in response to outside stimuli – such as vigorous, angry movements in response to loud noises, and more gentle movements in response to softer noises.”
That’s called reflexive.
“I have not witnessed fetal response to pain firsthand, but I have viewed videotape of it as well.”
That’s called reflexive.
I think I see the problem here. Your equivocating the capacity for meaningful sensory experiences with involuntary movement. Would you care to explain to me why you somehow seem to think that any and all movement is somehow not only deliberate and purposeful, but indicative of awareness?? If feeling pain is all about movement… my anemones can track and snare zooplankton with their tentacles, however I happen to know they don’t even have a central nervous system.
“Could you please direct me to the specific sources you reference to assert that fetal movements are not spontaneous, but rather are only reflexive? No need for a comprehensive look, just post your sources that fetal movement in the third trimester is solely reflexive.”
Again… you’re foolishly focusing so much on any and all movement it’s a stupid and meaningless request. Again… we’re talking about the efficacy of anesthetics for wich I base my conclusion (that a fetus does not experience pain in any meaningful sense of the word) on two facts. A)timing of developmental myelination and B) the placental-womb unit affects a virtual coma or sleep like state.
For human fetal myelination, there 11,000 scientific papers. Take your pick:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&scoring=r&q=human+fetal+myelination&as_ylo=2002
For the virtual coma or sleep like environment… well supported by variety of evidence mostly endocrinology and brain scans.
In Brain Research Reviews 49(3) Mellor et al. (2005), provides the most current review of the evidence accumulated so far. You can mine their citations yourself for the various details.
Their conclusions: “We have considered whether the fetus, once its nociceptive pathways are complete, can feel pain in utero in a psychological manner akin to adult pain experience, and whether regardless of this the physiological responses to nociceptive input may lead to altered behavior later in life. We conclude that there is currently no strong evidence to suggest that the fetus is ever awake, even transiently; rather, it is [I]actively [/I] kept asleep (and unconscious) by a variety of endogenous inhibitory factors. Thus, despite the presence of intact nociceptive pathways from around mid-gestation, the critical aspect of cortical awareness in the process of pain perception is missing. Furthermore, there is currently no direct evidence to suggest that subcortical effects of nociceptor input in the fetus can alone alter neural development and cause long-term adverse outcomes. ”
Cameron, is a newborn baby in a coma? Does a newborn baby only have reflexive movements? Does a newborn baby experience legitimate pain?
Bethany,
Is a new born baby getting aborted?
LOL
Calm down and go read the article I provided. They address the problem with this infering from new born crap.
I don’t see where they address it, Cameron. Is a newborn baby in a coma? Does a newborn baby only have reflexive movements? Does a newborn baby experience legitimate pain?
Why dont you answer me in your own words.
Cameron,
I never said that ALL movement was not reflexive; I did assert that SOME movement was more than reflexive. A reflexive movement is an automatic response to stimuli – but a baby moves and kicks on their own without necessarily being stimulated.
You assert that a baby is in a coma until birth – is that correct? At what point do you believe a baby comes out of the coma – upon exiting the uterus, upon having the umbilical cord clamped, upon taking his first breath? Or perhaps you believe a baby is in a coma like state until their newborn reflexes disappear? Please specify.
You still did not answer the question – if a baby, even at early gestational age (22-24 weeks) feels pain OUTSIDE the womb, why assume he does not feel pain inside the womb? I realize that you assert that a fetus is in a coma inside the womb – but even comatose patients can feel pain, depending on what stage their coma is in. And even comatose patients are offered pain relief and anasthetics prior to surgery, etc.
Myelination continues even after birth – it increases the speed of information traveling throught the nervous system. Lack of full myelination does not equal lack of pain or pain response. In fact, there are several diseases that cause demyelination to occur – and suffers of multiple sclerosis, Guillian Barre disease, etc. still suffer quite a bit of pain.
You may have initially been attempting some sort of argument against fetal pain management, but it is your assertion that a fetus is in a coma that I am taking issue with. I’m also unsure if your premise is that a fetus is in a coma, and therefore cannot feel pain; or, that a fetus cannot feel pain and is therefore in a coma. Please specify as well.
The citation you quote has concluded that fetuses do not feel pain in the same psychological way that adult humans do. It did not conclude that there is no fetal pain; in fact, it assumes that fetal pain receptors and nociceptors are present as a matter of fact.
A review of articles via Google seems to indicate that the medical community does not know at what point developing babies feel pain. Consensus seems to be at 30 weeks, perhaps before, perhaps not.
From The American Pain Society: (which has no agenda pro- or anti-abortion)
http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/jul03/article1.htm
This seems to be a comprehensive, quick summation of current research.
It really seems to depend upon one’s definition of pain- is it a physiological response to noxious stimuli, or is it the psychological and emotional response that constitutes “pain”?
Milehimama, I think Cameron gave up:
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/06/giuliani_waffle.html#comments