Weekend question
In time for Father’s Day, Life & Style magazine has named Hollywood’s top 10 dads. They are:
10. Gavin Rossdale (married to Gwen Stefani)
9. Tom Cruise
8. David Arquette (married to Courteney Cox)
7. Patrick Dempsey
6. Larry Birkhead
5. Will Smith
4. Ben Affleck
3. Johnny Depp
2. Tobey Maguire
1.
Weekend question combo: It’s pretty much a no brainer, but who do you think was L&S’s pick for #1 Hollywood dad? Who would be your pick for #1 dad and why?
Update, 6-20-07: Answer to #1: Brad Pitt
Rosy O’Donnell?
Cameron, you are such a troublemaker. :P
LOL!
Mel Gibson. Great father!
I assume Rosey would qualify. I think she IS the he in that relationship.
Heather4life
A great father who is out driving drunk after partying? I’m afraid Heather this is the one time we will disagree.
I see what you’re saying Mary, but I had to think of someone from Hollywood. It’s not an easy thing to do.
Mel?
Come on people!!!!!!
Rest assured, readers of something called Life and Style probably picked Brad Pitt. Let me check…
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_en___US217&q=Life+%26+Style+%231+dad
Yup… it’s brad pitt.
Sorry for the spoiler… but seriously, not exactly hard to find on the internet.
Yes Brad is good. I give Tom Cruise credit for adopting too.
I think Tom Hanks would be a great dad.
Cameron, I agree. I don’t even know if he has kids. Do you?
Brad just doesn’t strike me as the good fatherly type… however, I’ve never seen many interviews with him, and what I have seen he seemed guarded… so hard to say what his personality is realy like.
Hanks though… way cool, down to earth, etc…
There are also Hollywood dads that aren’t as high profile as some of these guys. I wish all the dads a happy upcoming Father’s day!
Hank’s kids
– Colin (1978) – Made his screen debut as a studio page in “That Thing You Do!”
– Elizabeth (1982) Appeared in both “Forrest Gump” (as a girl on the school bus) and “That Thing You Do!” (as the bored girl in the dress shop).
– Chester Marlon [Chet] (Aug. 1990)
– Truman Theodore (Dec. 26, 1995)
Hanks’ kids
– Colin (1978) – Made his screen debut as a studio page in “That Thing You Do!”
– Elizabeth (1982) Appeared in both “Forrest Gump” (as a girl on the school bus) and “That Thing You Do!” (as the bored girl in the dress shop).
– Chester Marlon [Chet] (Aug. 1990)
– Truman Theodore (Dec. 26, 1995)
Cameron,
I’m with you on both counts. I also like Tom Hanks and have always regarded him as very down to earth and genuine. About Brad Pitt, I must admit that I have some reservations about the way they adopt kids. Frankly, I don’t think its all charity on their part, I think Angie is just satisfying a compulsion, a need of her own, and poor Brad is along for the ride. I’m just not comfortable with shopping for children from orphanages. He does seem very loving and caring to his own daughter while Angie seems totally indifferent to the little girl.
I really think Larry Birkhead should be number one. There is a man who fought tooth and nail for his daughter and seems very devoted to her. Thank God he got her away from that Howard K. Stern.
I also must agree. There is something odd about those 2. I just can’t put my finger on it.
Speaking of Pitt,Jolie and Father’s day… Angelina shuns her OWN father.
Heather4life,
I think poor Brad is so ga-ga for Angie he has little other choice if he wants to stay with her. She’s the one running around doing the adopting. After the birth of her own daughter she was on a plane a week or so later and flying across the world for some “charity”. Don’t you think a new mother would want to be with her baby? While I may sound uncharitable, I just think these children satisfy a need of hers, a compulsion, and that she has no real maternal bond with her own daughter or adopted children. Brad and the nannies take care of the kids.
Birkhead’s currently being accused of being gay… not that there’s anything wrong with that… but I suspect you’d think less of him as father material if he is.
Not necessarily. He is her father and until he proves himself unfit I will maintain my good opinion of him.
Good fathers in Hollywood? um, that’s a tough one….besides Mel Gibson….I can’t really think of one….
A.Jolie is a phoney…..although her Dad is a good guy, Jon Voight.
Yeah, can’t say I’m really a fan of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt…especially Angelina, I can’t stand her. She treats kids like they are her possessions by trying to adopt as many kids from as many different countries as possible when there are thousands of kids RIGHT HERE IN THE US that aren’t getting adopted.
As for good fathers, I’d like to nominate my vati, because he is made of awesome. :D
But for celebrity dads…I’ve heard Ewan McGregor is a very good dad to his daughters…ditto with David Duchovny. Both of them have only been married once and have been married for many years (Ewan McGregor’s been married since 1995 I think, and I believe David Duchovny has been married since 1998).
I do agree with the whole Tom Hanks thing, I’m willing to bet he’s a great dad. Ditto with Morgan Freeman (though I’m not sure he has children, I’m pretty sure he does) mostly because it’s Morgan Freeman and that guy is pretty much incredible personified.
I have to break rank and say I admire Angelina in particular and Brad to a lessor extent for adopting all those kids. Not only did they do an altruistic thing but they helped publicize adoption.
I just wish they’d get married already.
But Jill, there are children in THIS country that aren’t getting adopted. Sure it’s admirable that they are adopting kids from foreign countries, but she is taking away attention from the children in the United States that are NOT getting adopted.
Not to dwell, but A. Jolie and B.Pitt act like 2 zombies when they are together. They always act like they are in a trance. Weird. Angelina won’t talk to her dad, and Jennifer Aniston won’t talk to her mom. I’m so sick of these spoiled brat celebs. They live in their own worlds. I could go on forever. Blah,blah,blah. They aren’t even worth what they are paid now a days. *oh well*
I was going to guess Brad Pitt. I am really surprised to see Tom Cruise on that list. I heard Katie Holmes is pregnant again.
Rae, someone on another post a month or two ago did some research on the topic of abortion/foster care needs in the US. Bethany or Valerie may remember where that was, but the facts were that the needs for those were just about being met.
And I’m all for bringing kids to the US, particularly girls. Third world countries abuse girls and women.
While I agree that there are a lot of children that need to be adopted in this country, there are a lot to adopt in other countries as well. Two families from my parents church have adopted children from overseas. One family adopted two children (brothers) from Rwanda… where let me tell you, they saw a lot of really bad and scary things. The other family adopted 3 sisters from another country in africa, I can’t remember which, where their mother either abandon them, or died of AIDS.. I can’t recall which. The only thing I disagreed with on the last family is that a week after they adopted these children (they ranged in age 5-13) was that they were forced to be baptized. They didn’t get to keep any of their culture that they had developed. However they are much better off here than where they were.
I think the girls should have been able to study the religion, then decide if they wanted to be baptized.
It’s sad, but I think Brad Pitt would be L & S’s choice. He was a zit for leaving his first wife. I have no respect for males like that.
I’ve gotta say that Cameron is on to something. I think originally Tom Hanks was going to be a youth pastor and then got into acting. Perhaps he was never told that the call of God is irrevocable. He went for the quick buck instead of eternal treasure.
Ron Howard I think would also be a good choice however, satan has messed with his mind as evidenced by The DaVinci God, a truly satanic inspired book and movie.
Good dads would move their kids away from the destructive influences of Hollywood. I had numerous opportunities to live in LA on numerous engineering projects, however, I turned down all offers. It was a great decision. I would bet you that all of the kids represented by the above mentioned fathers all live far and away from Sodom and Gommorah, CA.
A truly great person passed on this week. Ruth Graham was a model Christian woman and wife. Today’s women would do well to follow her example rather than the perverted examples presented them by the world.
Now she will reign in heaven forever in fulfillment of God promise to those who submit to His will would do.
God Bless the Graham family, especially Dr. Graham who has just lost his soul mate. I know that Dr. Graham would have never been what he is without his wife. We have lost a national treasure. Looking forward to meeting them in heaven someday.
I read a book about Madonna. Madonna admits that she had several abortions while attempting to rise to the top in her career. Madonna said that once she saw the sonogram of her first born daughter she realized that a baby really was human. She was in awe. I’m not sure if I buy it because everyone talks about how smart Madonna is. I was rather glad to see her adopt as well. I enjoy her as an entertainer.
“I’m so sick of these spoiled brat celebs.”
yes heather, that sums it up…
actually, of the list above, I think Will Smith would be the best.
His Man, I JUST heard about Billy’s wife on the news. As I sit and write, I have my T.V. on.
Mmm Will Smith.. I think he would be a good father as well. Have you seen him and his son in A Pursuit of Happiness? SO cute!!!
Hisman
I don’t think its very fair of you to make generalizations about people that live in Hollywood or LA.
Also, I have a friend that considered being a priest but after about a year of being in the seminary he realized he wanted to be a dad… Does that make him a bad person? NO! Should he have become a priest instead?
One last note on Madonna. She says “I’m very selfish.” I guess we can’t say she lied.
Oh good grief, the “Da Vinci Code” is not satanic, it’s just a poorly written novel and an even more poorly done film, Ron Howard just directed it because he thought he could make some money off of it because it was such an insanely popular novel (though I can’t see its appeal).
Amen HisMan.
..no, I didn’t see that movie JM, but I’d like to see it some day…
Sorry Jill,
I’m afraid I disagree. I’m with Rae on this one, she treats these children like possessions. I’m convinced Angelina is meeting her own needs and feeding her own compulsion. Do you ever see her cuddling these children or playing with them like we do other Hollywood celebrities? I’ve never seen a picture of her holding her own daughter. I have no objection to foreign adoptions so long as all laws and regulations are strictly adhered to. I do find shopping around orphanages and picking children like they’re objects in a flea market very unsettling. She no sooner adopts one then she’s off adopting another. How can you possibly form any bond? Is taking these children from their cultures really right? Who’s to say they are better off here?
Rae makes an excellent point. There are plenty of children here in the U.S. in need of homes. Actress Mia Farrow adopted several children, but many were American and some of her foreign adoptions were special needs children who would have no hope of any kind in their own countries and who were rejected by their families. She is my idea of true altruism.
“Madonna” came close to being excommunicated a from the church a couple of times I believe, one being when she hung herself on a cross during a concert.
“Oh good grief, the “Da Vinci Code” is not satanic”
yes, it is…
I see father’s day has morphed into hating on the celebs. Maybe it’s time to turn off RadioPatriot people.
@Jasper: No, it’s not satanic. It’s just crappy writing about a ridiculous “conspiracy” theory.
JM, you are absolutely right.
You cannot force a person to believe and hence acknowledge faith in Christ by baptism.
A relationship with Christ is a personal decision not made by anyone other than the person. No parent, wife, daughter, son or anyone can do it or force one to do it and somehow think that the magic water saves. This is where I have a problem with the Catholic Church baptizing babies. There are no Biblical commands or examples to do so. In fact, for the first few hundred years of the Church only adults were baptized and that by immersion. Baptism is actually a transliterated word from the Greek word “baptizo” which has its roots in the textile industry meaning to immerse or dunk as a cloth in a solution of dye. That cloth takes on the color of the dye.
I still think God’s grace covers Catholics, however, we must always try to do God’s will when it is revealed. It is my opinion that all who have been sprinkled as babies should get immersed as adults. I know I will get a lot of flak for this, however. It’s just plain obedience.
To just pour water over a non-willing participant, be it a baby or non-believing adult, is not conversion. Conversion is a heart thing. Cameron will be telling you about it when he soon encounters the living Christ or magic man as he likes to call Him.
Forcing baptism is not faith, it is superstition and gives comfort to the one doing the forcing while risking the soul of the one being forced.
Someone should confront these people head on with their heresy with Biblical facts and teaching. Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21 are good texts.
This is the difference between religion and relationship.
By the way, I am 54 and my wife is 50. We are still in pretty good shape. I hear that there are tons of abandoned kids in Russia. I’d love to adopt every one of ’em. We would turn them into champions for Christ. Pray for me and my wife. Shalom.
I agree Mary, there is just someting not genuine about her.
JM,
No, not a bad person, but, all accountable to God for the decisons we make. We are all equally fallen and subject to God’s wrath. Compared to God, we all fall short and only God is truly good. That’s why we need a Savior.
As far as the DaVinci code being satanic. It is 100% so. The Bible says in Galations 1:8-9: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
Infant Baptism only makes sense if parents are true Christian disciples. If they are not, then it makes little sense to initiate their children into a Church which calls for a commitment to living the mission of Christ.
The Rite of Baptism for Children emphasizes the importance of faithfulness on the part of parents when it says to parents: In asking to have your children baptized, “you are accepting the responsibility of training them in the practice of the faith.” That word practice is crucial; it calls for Christian modeling on the part of parents.
Catholics also have to confirm their faith in Christ when they’re around 13-14 as well…
@HisMan: It’s NOT satanic! It’s just a crappy book! That’s IT. It’s a work of fiction, nothing more and the fact that you fear it so is just laughable.
Please tell me you don’t think Harry Potter is satanic…
Mary and Rae, I’m happy to report our differing opinion on Brangelina is okey dokey. Not a hill I care enough to die on, which seems rare these days. Group hug.
I am looking forward to tomorrow. Rich wants to go to this huge flea market near us and then out to lunch at White Fence Farm, which has the best chicken and corn fritters.
We went to church tonight. Rich had an interesting observation beforehand which played out. He said on Mothers Day the sermons are all about how wonderful mothers are, and on Fathers Day the sermons are all about how fathers could be better dads. That was so tonight.
@Jill: That’s a bit sexist you think? My dad is a wonderful father, where as my mom could *totally* use improvements to be a better mom…
Cameron:
Radio Patriots? That’s a good one! How about “Internet Intercessors” or “Cyberspace Crusaders”.
Hey to all you single moms out there…”Happy Father’s Day”. You are all doing the hardest job in the world due to a lot of gutless wimps who think only with the one-eyed wonder willies.
By the way, kepp your eye on Cameron because after his Damascus Road expereince that he is soon to have he will be quite a catch. Until then stay away, “peligro”.
Jill,
It’s not sexist, it’s true. Men are appointed to lead and women to follow. Hold onto your panties girls before they blow up now…
And men do a very poor job at leading hence, very few women want to follow them.
Why do you think we have abortion….ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding…..?
Cameron, I’ve just revealed to you one of my vices….slot machine jackpots.
Rae, yes. But I wonder if men receive encouragement/admonishment anywhere else to be better fathers than in the church?
I went to Obama’s church near Christmas. His pastor preached an interesting sermon, telling men in the all-black audience (except my friend and I) to be Josephs in the black community, as in Joseph, Jesus’ step/adoptive father. I thought that was a good sermon.
@HisMan: Have you ever been to Deadwood, South Dakota? Casino heaven. :) You have a better chance winning there than you do in Vegas.
HisMan, as an aside, my passion was the study of Biblical equality before I became involved in the pro-life movement. Not that I want to to discuss it here. That would take another blog and way more energy than I have. But as an aside… :)
@Jill: That does sound like a good sermon. It sounds like something I remember Bill Cosby saying but he got a whole ton of un-deserved flak for, I think Spike Lee said something similar to that as well and he got a whole bunch of crap for it too, which I think is unfair, they are only trying to help.
Bill Cosby was right-on. Didn’t know Spike Lee agreed. That just raised his status in my book a tad.
Speaking of Madonna, I understand she teaches her daughter appreciation and management of money by limiting her charge card to $10,000. How does that poor child manage??
Jill, have a great day tomorrow. In fact, Happy Father’s Day to all it applies to on this blog.
Hisman
“Men are appointed to lead and women to follow. Hold onto your panties girls before they blow up now…”
I am going to “let my panties blow up” You suggest that women NEED men to survive, which is not the truth! I know plenty of independent women. Including my best friend that left her parents house at the age of 18 because she was abused by her parents. She paid for college and everything on her own. I say she’s doing perfectly fine without “a man to follow” She has a successful career, and her own house.
Spike Lee is a race hustler…
@Jill: I think Spike Lee was criticizing the “gangsta” lifestyle as being a detriment to black society or something and how he thought it was ridiculous and irresponsible and made blacks appear dangerous and violent. Unfortunately the black community did not take this well (no doubt led by those idiot rappers) and pretty much shrieked at him to shut up and called him “Uncle Tom” and stuff. >_
I went to my boyfriend’s brothers confirmation last year. The sermon was suppose to turn people towards the church… It completely turned me away from it. All it was was this, “if you do this you’re going to hell, if you do that, you’re going to hell…”
@Jasper: How is Spike Lee a race hustler? What on earth does that even mean anyway?
Mary, thanks! You have a great day tomorrow, too.
Rae-
I saw this movie called Pool Hall Junkies…
It was about hustlers. The people would act like they were really bad at pool so that the other person would make a really high bet. then they show how good they are and the person loses a lot of money.
@Rae, because he goes around trying to get black people angry at whites, always using the race card, etc.
Quote from his last movie about New Orleans…
Spike Lee:
maybe the government really did blow up the levys
JM,
Shrieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!
Calm down. Let the air out of your panties before you float away like that lady in the Harry Potter movie.
Seriously, I was talking in the context of a marriage relationship where either the male or the female have to lead or follow. Can’t have both or it doesn’t work. God’s model is that men lead by love and self-giving and woman follow by submssion to only that love and self-giving.
Of course woman can survive on their own. How did you glean otherwise from what I said?
This is what kills me about today’s women. You are so brainwashed by men-hating feminism that you won’t even stop to think and listen to the truth.
All men are bad, all men want to do is dominate women, all men are is……fill in the blank. Now I have to agree with that for the most part, however, there are some good guys out there as Cameron is soon to become. So, stop, listen, and think for a minute and don’t be so ready to throw the Rosy, lesbian, feminacho grenade out.
@Jasper: So what? I think blacks have every right to be angry at whites. Institutional racism, hello!?
But he doesn’t always do that, as I said before, he caught a whole bunch of flak for insulting “gangsta” culture in the black community. So you are wrong… as per usual.
Hisman-
“Men are appointed to lead and women to follow.” then you said something about men being bad leaders, and women not wanting to follow and therefor we have abortions…
That is what you said. I have every right to be angry… and yes I know not all men are bad. I myself am dating a good one. We’ll have been dating two years this tuesday and I’ve loved every minute of it.
And this girl is going to go spend sometime with that special guy. Good Night y’all!
have fun jm ;)
and Im just back from work so I missed nearly everything, but one thing that stuck with me is this.
How can a work that even says in the front that it is completely FICTIONAL, be satanic? It isnt saying follow me or anything, its a book meant to entertain, nothing else.
I think the only thing I find worse is Laura Mallory’s hatred of Harry Potter and constantly taking it to court to get it banned from libraries, which just honestly strikes me as ridiculous.
Rae, are you suffering from liberal white guilt?
read:
White Guilt by Shelby Steele
As the civil rights victories of the 1960s dealt a blow to racial discrimination, American institutions started acknowledging their injustices, and white Americans — who held the power in those institutions — began to lose their moral authority. Since then, our governments and universities, eager to reclaim legitimacy and avoid charges of racism, have made a show of taking responsibility for the problems of black Americans. In doing so, Steele asserts, they have only further exploited blacks, viewing them always as victims, never as equals. This phenomenon, which he calls white guilt, is a way for whites to keep up appearances, to feel righteous, and to acquire an easy moral authority — all without addressing the real underlying problems of African Americans
JM,
Enjoy God’s gift to you.
Please, as I urge my son’s and daughter, don’t give it away.
Wait.
Jasper,
As much as I love you I have to totally disagree with you on the baptism of children. This is one of the main reasons I left the Catholic Church.
The baptism of a child is a traditon of men and nowhere found or taught in the Bible. If it is, let me know and I will change my view. We are wanred in the Bible not to hold to traditions of men.
Remember, in Acts 2:38 the question is asked, “what must we do to be saved” and the answer is given, “repent and be baptized”. Babies can’t repent, nor can their parents for them.
We can still agree that abortion is murder though.
Love ya. Shalom.
Happy Fathers day to all…..
Here’s a framed picture my daughter gave me last Father’s Day. It was all worth it.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z85/hisman_ixoye/Daddy.jpg
@Jasper: I do recognize that blacks need to take responsibility for some of their problems, we can’t fix everything. But you have to recognize there STILL is racism in America, it’s literally built into our various institutions.
I think Brad Pitt might be a good dad, though I’m not much a fan of Jolie. I don’t particularly like Tom Hanks, just as an actor, don’t know about him as a person. I second Will Smith, he seems like a good guy, and would like to add John Stewart. He and his wife, from what I understand, have a wonderful relationship, and he does the best thing that a Hollywood dad can do: he keeps his kids out of it all.
I think my fiance would be an awesome dad. Hm. My best friend has an amazing dad. Both of my older brothers are incredible fathers. One of my uncles, in particular, is an awesome dad: he’s good with all kids, not just his own. When I was little, my dad and I got along perfectly: not so much as I got older. He’s pretty good, though, and I enjoy having him around, even if we don’t get along. We always have interesting conversations.
Hard to believe Mel Gibson could still be considered a good father after driving drunk and yelling anti-Semitic remarks. If he didn’t make Passion of the Christ, I would assume everyone would have jumped even more all over him for that. And not consider him “good dad” material.
@Hisman
The whole “men are born to lead” thing doesn’t anger me because I feel like all men want to dominate, rape women, subjugate everyone, etc. There are plenty of wonderful men I’ve met that have never once discriminated against anyone because of their gender, or some other quality about themselves they could not change. I have, however, confronted a few who have. At least in my world this is relatively rare.
It angers me because it perpetuates the belief that men are born with some quality that is connected to their gender, something women can never or shouldn’t ever have to experience. You seem to believe that if women are successful in leadership roles, it’s only because the man in the picture wasn’t good enough and only because of his shortcomings could a woman even try her hand at leadership.
I think a few on this site would agree with me that men and women are born with equal capabilities to be successful in a leadership position. If a woman or a man is not successful, I would hope it was tied to their merit, something most Republicans scream for when it comes to determining jobs and affirmative action, and not something they had no control over (like race or gender). It seems so odd that someone who is a religious conservative who presumably wants nothing to do with affirmative action (a practice that functions on an unchangeable characteristic like race) is more than willing to accept an equally unchangeable characteristic as a reason for determining leadership roles. Doesn’t equate. But I guess if the Bible says so, we can gloss over this error in logic.
The fact that you tack abortion on the end as some problem that only women have with weak male leadership have is quite insulting. I’ve watched some of you insult Erin’s boyfriend (I’m thinking of Jasper, here) because he wasn’t “man” enough to stop her from having an abortion. It was disgusting and so un-Christian. Like he should use brute force to physically stop her from going into a clinic, or rather, beat her because she wanted to abort his child? What should he have done to be “man enough”? Desert her? But wait, that’s another thing we chastise men for doing because it’s seen as weak.
I watch these posts and hope to learn something constructive from pro-lifers. It’s made me more proactive in starting dialogues with pro-lifers I know personally, and that is something I really enjoy intellectually. What I cannot stand is the justification of gendered roles merely because you cannot see past the pages of a “sacred” document. Let women do what they can do just as well as a man without having to wait for a man to fail first. And don’t insult a woman’s autonomy or agency because you don’t agree with abortion. Realize there might be other reasons besides “weak male leadership” that abortion exists.
Well as far as Mel Gibson goes, the guy made a mistake. So did Imus and Micheal Richards and a few others. They are only human after all.
HisMan,
At least we both know who our Savoir is. Love-ya buddie.
Happy Fathers Day….
HisMan,
Here is something on infant baptism that you may or may not be interested in….
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
I guess I could never be a good Christian woman, given my prediliction for wearing the pants in the relationship.
Oh, and Happy Father’s Day, all you daddies!
HisMan,
Have you talked to your wife about your gender role notions?
What of someone who’s biologically androgenous?? If a man gets a sex change operation, is he still better than a woman? What if a woman does? If a man and a woman have an otherwise healthy relationship and great family, however she’s making most of the decissions because she’s more capable, is that unchristian???
Rosie:
I read the article. It’s a theological stretch and it confirms my view. Infant baptism is a doctrine that the Catholic Church has painted itself into a corner with and is almost impossible to repent from. Think about it, what do you tell the living descendants of billions of believers? That the Bible really does not teach infant baptism? It would destroy the church. Hence, they developed an apologetic for it called original sin.
Of all the examples of Christian conversion in the Bible, be in at Pentecost, the Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius, Paul, etc., etc., etc. not one, not a single one, involved the baptism of infants. And as I stated before, for the first 300 years of the church’s history, babies were never candidates for conversion, nor were they baptized. Where did all these babies go if they weren’t baptized? I know, Limbo, another man-made doctrine.
If God’s will was to have babies baptized He would have stated it explicitly in the Bible especially via an epistle or letter from Paul who for years dealt with many issues facing the church.
I will say it again, babies are not candidates for conversion. They cannot believe, they cannot repent, they cannot even confess or acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord.
My parents were Catholic, all my brothers and sisters are Catholic. The infant baptism doctrine is one of the hardest, if not impossible things to persuade Catholics of. I believe I will see all my relatives in heaven since they have faith in Christ, however, we would all do well to study and apply God’s word as revealed and not the doctrines of men, and that’s what infant baptism is.
The result is it feeds superstition and robs people of a genuine conversion experience. People would be wise to forget the faith of their parents, study the Bible on their own and come to Jesus on his terms. Remember that He said that we must hate our brothers and sister and parents before we can come to Him meaning of course He is to be number one in our lives. He knew the powerful effect and sway relatives would have over us in light of faith and that’s why He commanded this.
If aomeone can give me more evidence, I will change my view. Not one, not a priest or scholar or professor has ever given me a reason to adopt infant baptism as a Christian, biblically based doctrine.
This is not bragging, just statement of an observation. None of my kids were baptized as infants and all are now strong believers. They made their own choice to follow Christ. In fact my 11 year old, at the age of 6, cried and begged me to get baptized after I wrongly refused because I thought he was too young. I look at all my relatives’ kids who were baptized as infants and at best most are nominal Catholics and the majority could care less about Christ. I also went to a Catholic High School and the vast majority of kids in that school were the same way, no evidence of conversion or faith in Christ.
No, there is no power in the water. The power is in the heart of a person willing to submit to and be changed by the living God. I Peter 3:21 states clearly this concept. Babies cannot make an appeal to God for a clear conscience.
Shalom.
Cameron:
I never said men were better than woman.
However, since I have unjustifiably inccurred the wrath of the young crowd here, I apparently wasn’t very clear, let me restate my position.
In the context of Christian marriage God appointed the husband (man) as the head and the wife (woman) as the one to submit to the man. Now the man must be willing to give up his life for his wife and the woman is not forced to submit, it is her choice, based on wheterh or not the husband loves her in the proper way.
As far as someone having a sex change operation, the bible does not address that issue. My opinion is that it would not be God’s will for one to have such an operation but to bear their situation as that of being their specific cross to bear or thorn in the flesh.
HisMan, did you see my post to jasper regarding gender roles a bit back? There is an entire body of psychological works that confirm that traditional gender attitudes encourage rape myth acceptance that make males more likely to take advantage of a female. I can give you the post and quote the abstracts of some of the research if you’d like.
Honestly, I went to church with my fiance today and was disgusted. The pastor used the sermon as a political pulpit to address how Christians are so persecuted in the United States, and how fathers should be the leaders of the families, and how women simply don’t have the ability to lead. I usually enjoy going to church with my fiance, as the people are generally friendly and the atmosphere is pleasant. But after this, I’m seriously considering not going back.
“I never said men were better than woman.”
No, not in those exact words, however it’s clearly intrinsic in your notions. Leaders are generally chosen based on their exceptional capacities (Bush aside). Why has God ordained male as leader of family? Has He created woman in his own image? Gender of a lesser god.. to steal a line??
“In the context of Christian marriage God appointed the husband (man) as the head and the wife (woman) as the one to submit to the man. Now the man must be willing to give up his life for his wife and the woman is not forced to submit, it is her choice…”
Choice, in no uncertain terms, suggests an alternative? LOL… I guess I should expect such ridiculous application of the word here. So what is the alternative choice for these women? Hell?
“As far as someone having a sex change operation, the bible does not address that issue. My opinion is that it would not be God’s will for one to have such an operation but to bear their situation as that of being their specific cross to bear or thorn in the flesh.”
There you go like a christian scientist again. So is improving our condition a sin? Is worsening our lot a virtue??
Best,
Cameron
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I went to my cousins wedding a year and half ago. One of the readings was exactly the same. It disgusted me as well.
Hisman-
I’m curious what your god says about individuals who are born with both male and female parts? Because these things DO happen.
JM, you’d be surprised how many wedding traditions are intrinsically sexist. The giving away, the engagement ring, the changing of the name. I think if more people were aware of the meaning behind the traditions, fewer people would participate in them. Too bad this isn’t the case. :(
Wow, that shut Hisman up.
Good on you guys/gals!
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When my brother got married my parents walked him down the aisle…. the the bride was walked down the aisle by both of her parents too. It was kinda neat.
Kim,
I think HisMan’s probably on his knees, prostrate before the lord, on this holiest of holy days.
JM, that’s how they do it in most Jewish ceremonies, actually. I love it: it incorporates both sets of parents, which I think is extremely important. I don’t think I’ll be having a processional, but I think that’s the way to do it.
A few observations…
-You make judgements on Angelina Jolie based on the fact that she has adopted so many in a short period of time. All the tabloid shots of her lately have been with Brad and the crew of children in tow. You don
“I don
I’m approaching the 6 year anniversary mark myself.
I sent my Mom a card for father’s day. Seemed appropriate enough.
That’s sweet, Yvette.
I wish I could manage to go see my mommy today. It’s been a couple weeks since I’ve visited.
But…I’ve got to work and there’s no internet connection at my mother’s house.
I’m on a different continent than my Mommy, how’s that for inconvenient?
I came home to visit post-UK Mother’s Day, I left pre-US-Mother’s day, and when she came to visit we went to Paris for a few days… and missed the French Mother’s day by 2 days.
I’m sneaking home for both of our birthdays. At least those aren’t holidays invented by Hallmark.
Haha. I only live about twenty minutes away from my mother, but when you’ve got bills to pay and a regular sleeping schedule to get back on….getting your work done as soon as possible is very, very important.
I’ll be over sometime during the week anyway. She’s got to sign a copy of her tax stuff so I can get it into my school for financial aid.
@Yvette: Someday, someday your birthday shall be a Hallmark holiday…:D
My mother and I celebrate our birthdays either the weekend before or the weekend after.
I was born two days before hers, so it’s kind of silly to have two separate celebrations so close together.
Gah… if you knew me personally, the obvious jokes about how Yvette-day would be celebrated are plentiful.
Aaww, my Mommy and I are 6 days apart. I was over a month late, she asked them to induce on her birthday to no avail… 6 days later, she DEMANDED they induce; they looked up the date of the first hospital positive pregnancy test, said a collective ‘oh sh!t,’ and busted me out of there.
I like the story to be colorful, gracias.
Well, it made me laugh anyway.
I think I was born a little early.
……
so Life & Style (a gossip rag mag ) and a bunch of people who frequent an online forum who’ve never met ANY of these people in real life are suddenly all-knowing and can judge parenting abilities and intentions??
Because Im so sure a magazine that runs cover stories on who gained 7 pounds last week and looks “like TOTALLY fat in her bikini!! OHNOEEZZZ!!!” REALLY know all about these men and how they’ve raised their kids. (Tobey Maguire isnt even married – Im surprised you’re not all getting worked up about him being #2 top dad!!)
I really find our culture’s obsession with celebrities personal lives and acting like we all know them well enough to be making these statements kind of disturbing… this isnt a personal thing to you guys – its everywhere – but its so utterly pointless.
I think our obsession with celebrities and what goes on in their lives is quite pathetic, really.
Yeah Heather I got in to a big discussion with my secretary about it last week. She was all upset about some young star couple and the guy cheated or whatever…
I was like…. would you be this interested if I came in and told you the same exact story, only it was about my neighbors and not some idiots from One Tree Hill or whatever dumb show they were on?
Exactly.
Who cares what a celebrity does off-screen? It doesn’t matter. Granted, I might flip through one of those magazines casually, but it’s not anything worth…anything.
All the attention the media puts on them and their “scandals” is just pathetic.
Amanda and Heather B., I agree. Some celebs do bring us great entertainment/movies and comedy, but I’m sure their lives are a far cry from the average person. I think John Travolta bought his very young daughter a pony one day because she “wanted one.” If the tragedy of someones life is gaining 5 pounds, what can I say?
Eh.
I could care less what they spend their money on. They have it, they can do what they want with it. It’s of no concern to me.
I had to go to the grocery store today and all over the tabloids was JENN and HER NEW GUY. So, Jennifer Aniston is dating again. So what!
Not going to lie, but I enjoy reading the tabloid covers…it amuses me.
That being said, yes, I am that easily amused.
Well, I do the same Rae. I look while I am at the hair salon or in the grocery store line.
Heather,
“, but I’m sure their lives are a far cry from the average person. ”
I don’t think anyone was arguing about their lives… the point is that they’re human.
I went to the grocery store today and saw that Jennifer was expecting a baby or something….
Whenever I go to the grocery store, I can never seem to find anything out about my own life. What gives? I know someone must be snapping pictures of me.
Meh, I only “believe” what’s written on perezhilton.com. He breaks “news” (if you can call it that) daily, has quote from celebs (not from a “source close to” them), and most of his stuff is verified by a reputable source within hours.
I’ll admit it, I enjoy perezhilton, but the weekly rags are crap. It’s the same story every week.
The one celebrity I CAN comment on because I talked to him for 2 hours is Denzel Washington. That man is pure class from head to toe… but you’ll never see his name in the tabloids – he isnt interesting enough to create headlines we’d want to read.
And I know every single one of us flips through those magazines for the hell of it – but theres a huge difference between scanning it because its there, and actually feeling like you know enough about them to make statements about their parenting abilities.
Hi Yvette,
Welcome to this blog. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen you here before.
I would just like to say any comments I posted about Angelina are based on my observations and are my opinions only. I respect that others may disagree with me. You certainly have some equally strong opinions concerning Mel Gibson’s parenting abilities and how his children may turn out.
About the rift with her father. I understand this is based on Jon Voight’s publicly questioning her mental stability. Given what I’ve read about her history I believe there’s some basis to what he said but I do NOT believe he should have publicly made such statements and I do not blame Angelina for being very angry about it.
I’m not of the opinion the DaVinci Code is “satanic”. Let people throw whatever theories they want around. Good grief there’s all kinds of conspiracy and counter conspiracy theories out there. If you’re comfortable with your beliefs, why should it bother you?
As far as the Da Vinci Code, I think anyone whose faith is shaken by a work of fiction needs to re-evaluate their beliefs anyway.
I am a HUGE fan of Denzel!
I hear Nicole Ritchie is pregnant. Wow Amanda! You met Denzel? He seems so classy!! You never do hear much about him though. He conducts a private life aside from his celebrity.
Heh.
She looks far too small to be able to successfully carry a pregnancy to term in my opinion.
Mel has deteriorated with time; Angelina has grown up. There’s a big difference.
Jon Voight questioned her ability as a single parent (especially because of her decision to adopt), hence a major reason for the rift. You
I have never seen the Da Vinci Code. My husband has the movie. Can you guys tell me what it’s about. He doesn’t seem to think it’s satanic. I just haven’t had time to watch it.
Kim,
Your assumption of my premature demise was based on false assumptions, you know, typical of the manner in which you construct your life value system on. Turns out I went to church, heard an awesome sermon, sat near Ted Haggard and then had lunch with my loving and awesome family.
Less,
I don’t need any psycho-babble/psycho-heresy because that’s what it is. The truth that we are sinners, responsible for our own sin to a holy God and thus in need of a Savior is enough for me. Freud, Pavlov, Schweiker, Frankendefullofit, etc., and all those other false prophets are dead. My leader is at the right hand of God and promises eternal life. I’ll follow Him to where He is and you can follow that pervert Freud to the grave where he is, if you so choose.
Sounds like God lead you to a great church today. Too bad you rejected God Himself who obviously is trying to reach you. Your fianc
It’s just a fictional work inspired by what is apparently an age-old conspiracy theory.
All it does is bring into question Christ’s divinity.
I’m horrible at summarizing things, so unless someone can explain it better…you’re better off reading it and deciding for yourself, or Googling the information. You should be able to find it on Wiki.
Denzel Washington is very classy. My only claim to fame is attending elementary school with Stevie Wonder, who I consider another class act.
My biggest issue with celebrities is their preaching environmental concerns to us common folk but maintaining their energy consuming lifestyles. John Travolta and his fleet of 5 private jets. Mass transit to these people is 5 people in a stretch limo. Barbara Streisand thinks we should use clotheslines? I’d be willing to bet my mortgage she hasn’t done a load of wash in 40 years and that you’ll never see her undies flapping in the breezes of Malibu.
Two things Hisman..
1. Why didn’t you comment on my question.. What does you god thing of people born with both male and female parts….?
2. If your heaven is full of people like you… (no offense) then send me straight to hell. I don’t want to be in heaven if it’s full of judgmental, uncaring and unloving people.
Mary, I can’t stop laughing!!! Don’t get me started on Cheryl Crow. Laughing out of my chair!
Mary –
Psh. I don’t have the time to wait for my clothes to dry without the aid of electricity.
Don’t get me wrong hisman, you care about people like you… you love people like you…
But you don’t care about me, or love me. Because my views are different than yours. You can sit here and say you do, but i’m sorry i’m just not seeing it or feeling it.
His Man, Happy Father’s Day!
So, what you said, HisMan, basically translates to:
Nice non-response HisMan.
Would you care to answer any of the questions and actually inform this “jerk” or would you just like to persist with red-herrings (e.g. biblical leaders instead of male as leader of family), not to mention ironically fancying yourself as some sort of mentor for me despite having no response for my questions beyond dismissing me??
You’re really bad at this witnessing stuff.
Maybe I
A. Jolie’s father did say he felt that she was mentally unstable. Does anyone remember her marriage to Billy Bob? They wore vials of each others blood around their necks. The worst was when she french kissed her brother… GROSS!! Didn’t he have a right to wonder? She did it publicly.
Heather –
As for Jolie and Billy Bob, some people are into stuff like that. I hardly think that makes them unstable.
Actually, if you look at the original Hebrew (doubt you can read it) you will see that it has, in fact, been changed quite a bit.
If you had, say, a business model that was 2,000 years old, had been translated into about 10 different languages and contexts, handled by politicians and people who saw their kingdom potentially slipping from them, and were told
Yvette,
Again, I stand by what I said based on my observations, not by what Angie said about a “blob”. If you perceive this whole situation differently than me, I respect that. I also understand Jon Voight wrote Angie about not liking her lifestyle. Whatever, with public comments about her mental stability and ability as a single parent, its easy to understand why there is a rift. About Brad being along for the ride, I have no doubt he deeply loves Angie and the children but I do believe decisions about adopting will be determined by Angie, in spite of what Brad likes or says.
Whatever reasons you give, you were passing judgement on Mel as a parent, something you said I should not be doing. I think Yvette we are both just stating what we perceive.
“I’ll follow Him to where He is”
He’s in a mass burial on calvary.
Mel is an alcoholic. All the alcoholics I’ve known haven’t been great parents. I at least have a good reason to think that he’s not father-of-the-year.
In all fairness Mary… Judgement regarding Mel’s parenting is based on a hell of a lot more than speculation. After all, he’s an evangelical christian… nuf said.
I can deal with the blood, but french kissing your brother??? GROSS! I also hear that she had a lesbian affair with a Calvin Klein model. She broke the girls heart. I am not going to keep trashing her. People can and DO change. I would say that she’s come a long way. Good for her!
I didn’t hear anything about the brother incident (though I’d venture to guess it was for publicity), and you and I are obviously going to disagree on the whole lesbian thing.
Cam- Mel’s a Catholic… like, a step removed from an Opus Dei style Catholic.
Mel made a mistake. Don’t we all? He is a human being.
Yeah, when I make mistakes they don’t include vehicular endangerment and claiming that the Jews are responsible for all the wars of the world.
Heather B. The only thing I was saying is that she acts like such a goodie 2 shoes.Look at her antics. So her dad commented about her. So what? Perhaps he WAS out of line. I’ll give her credit though. She was absolutely fantastic in ‘Girl Interrupted’ WOW!
Cameron,
Your point is……what?
Yvette,
Fine. You have an opinion of Mel as a parent based on your observation and I have my opinion of Angelina as a parent based on my mine.
Now there’s one thing we can agree on, Heather. Overall I don’t like her as an actress, but she did a magnificent job in that movie.
Heather B. I didn’t like her in GIA, but she was so convincing in Girl Interrupted. I thought she was absolutely sensational!!!
I liked the movie Girl Interrupted but I thought the book was much better.
I haven’t read the book.
If anyone’s read Prozac Nation and has seen the movie, that’s definitely one in which the movie is a complete failure.
Mary, I had no idea there was a book.
Anyway, I’m off. Darren just got off work and we’re going to Sonic to get some food (and a peanut butter fudge milkshake…yum) and spend some quality time together.
Have a nice night, everyone.
Haether B. I am so jealous! I love sonic, but we don’t have them where I live. Anyway, have fun!!
Tis late on my continent. g’night.
Heather –
We have three where I live. Overkill? Maybe. I’m not complaining though. It just means that if I’m anywhere in town and get a craving, there’s one nearby.
I’m here with your comedy central connection.
http://www.theshowbizshow.com/index.jhtml?c=vc&videoId=88168
He’s no Stephen Colbert, but they took off the Lewis Black on celebrities and earth day, so this is all I had to offer up.
PIP, you and your videos. Hilarious! Thanks for the entertainment!! LOL!!
Oh, Hisman, I’m still waiting for my “verbal whippin'”
Or did my post challenging your notion that leadership is fundamentally tied to gender just too uncomfortable to confront?
Too bad, I was really waiting to get an earful.
Jen-
Hisman hasn’t reply to me yet either. He much be speechless.
Now I understand why Rush Limbaugh is absolutely adamant about no religious debates on his show! They go on forever and nothing is ever resolved.
I doubt he’s speechless ladies, he’s probably busily writing up another self-serving, ego-stoking, bible-thumping manifesto about how without God we are all worthless as individuals and that we are nothing more than li’l “lost children” because we don’t believe in a 2000 year old piece of fiction and that he’s such a great “manly” man because he follows Christ and honestly takes the bible literally because for some misguided reason he thinks the bible was written by God Himself.
I dare say I am waiting to how he replies, especially to Yvette the alleged “heretic”.
No matter, I already know what level of Hell I’m going to, Level Six, the City if Dis, the land of Heretics, courtesy of the Dante’s Inferno quiz. Can’t escape my heretical, and demonic fate now can I?
HisMan: “I look at all my relatives’ kids who were baptized as infants and at best most are nominal Catholics and the majority could care less about Christ. I also went to a Catholic High School and the vast majority of kids in that school were the same way, no evidence of conversion or faith in Christ.”
Yes, my brother. The Catholic Church has not good done a good job of keeping people in the faith. But this is not because of infant baptism, but is by their teachers or themselves that they have rejected the teachings…
Original sin.
A frequently asked question was, “How can God punish me for something I did not do?” When speaking of original sin, we are not referring to personal fault but rather to an inclination to evil, a deprivation of holiness and likeness to our Creator. This deprived condition, which we call original sin, is the result of Adam and Eve’s loss of their gift of holiness and friendship with God. Like their first parents, all human beings share this loss and are subject to suffering, death and ignorance.
Christ, however, conquered the power of Satan by his death and resurrection. St. Paul says, “Just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Romans 5:18).
perhaps you Jasper can answer my question seen hisman has not done so.
“How do you explain The Crusades”
Like I said many times before, we shouldnt judge the crusades so easily. This all started with muslims burning down christian churches. There would be a good chance today that we’d all be muslims if it wasn’t for the crusades..
Yvette “the Church
what is question JM? …God loves all of His children.
I never said anything about God hating people…
I said what does the church or your God say about those with both male or female parts? Are they not allowed to get married and make love because no matter what sex, male or female they choose it would be homosexual sex?
and I’m talking about people BORN with both parts.. not people who have surgery.
And Jasper, you never answered my question from an earlier thread.
Why do you feel my dad is effeminate because he didn’t force his beliefs upon his children? What about that makes him effeminate and why do you see “effeminate-ness” as such a negative thing?
Concerning intersexed people (hermaphrodites), allow me to share what Mark Chalemin (at Fellowship Bible Church-North in Plano, Texas) and I collaborated on to answer this question for someone else:
By definition a hermaphrodite is “a person born with both male and female sex organs.” Within this definition there are three labels; true, female pseudo, and male pseudo. The first category is extremely rare with only 350-450 known cases. The second type, and the most common, is female pseudo resulting in 1 of every 14,000 births. The main cause for this is a condition known as Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. In these cases there is an overproduction of testosterone causing some “masculinized” features in the female. This does not mean that there is any real gender confusion. There is not. As with any female, her chromosome is XX. Any slight mutation, that may accompany is treated early by corrective surgery. The same situation may occur in baby boys with the same treatment. (There is a movement to stop this surgery, which is being called genital mutilation by some of those who have had it, and allow children’s bodies to grow and develop naturally, even if they are different.) It seems that even with ambiguous genitalia, these kids “know” if they are intrinsically male or female.
..
You asked for sound doctrine; I can only respond with the wise and loving boundaries that God has established for sex (which is usually the issue here, right?). All sexual behavior is to be contained within marriage (see the many condemnations of fornication). Men are to act and appear as men, and women are to act and appear as women (Deut. 22:5). Even those born with genital ambiguity are expected to submit to His boundaries.
http://www.probe.org/content/view/1195/47/
@Rae, maybe “effeminate” is not the right word. I’m sure your Dad loves you very much.
…all other points you mentioned about your Dad were good, the only thing I didn’t understand is that if he believed in something stongly, why wouldn’t he want to teach you his beliefs, it’s not about “forcing” it about guidance.
Jasper,
I hesitate to jump into this fray. There can be a problem with men appearing as men and women appearing as women. Exactly how are men and women to appear? Masculine and feminine roles can be culturally defined. In some cultures men and women wear only loinclothes or may go completely naked, in others both shave their heads or both grow their hair long. Scottish men wear kilts. Arab men wear flowing robes. So do the women. Its a little hard to define exactly what is universally feminine or masculine. In our culture men and women wear pants, men grow their hair long, and women are doing traditionally masculine jobs while more men are entering the nursing profession. I just throw this out there.
@Jasper: But you see, my dad doesn’t believe in anything very strongly. He literally has no opinion on abortion. He has no opinion on gay marriage. He has no opinion on God other than the fact that he thinks he’s there but that’s about it. He NEVER talked about God, he never talked about religion. He honestly has no opinion on these things. My dad is a political moderate, he votes for both democrats and republicans. Heck, my dad isn’t even Catholic, but he goes to church with my Catholic mother almost every weekend (it really depends if she goes or not) just because she doesn’t want to go alone. He has never had an interest in converting to Catholicism and he’s been going to what ever church my mom has gone to for the past 25 years.
@Rae, kinda sounds like my Dad. Although, he was a Repulican, but never went to church, never talked about God, etc. … And now that I’m older and looking back, I wish he did because I belived ity would’ve helped me in my earlier years.
@Mary, I believe that writer wasn’t refering to “dress” or garments necessarily but in attitude, etc..
@Jasper: Why do you feel it would have helped in your earlier years? Why do think having your dad make you go to church and talk about God would have helped you? My dad did the whole “make me go to church” thing and in reality all it did was make things worse. He wasn’t doing it for any other reason than the fact he thought that “that was what he was supposed to do because his parents did that to him”. I think it would have spared a lot of ugly fights had he just listened to how I felt about going to church and religion in general instead of forcing me to go and thus alienating me to religion and church.
@Rae: because in my earlier years I fell into the secular godless culture. Having guidance from a father who has a strong faith would’ve helped. I don’t think it should be forced, but strongly encouraged….
why have you alienated God/Christ (the Truth) instead of embracing Him. (did some friends influence you, or did it come from within?) You don’t have to answer tonight if your too tired…
@Jasper: What do you mean by “secular godless culture”?
And no, it came from within. All my friends growing up were Catholic and Lutheran and they blindly went to church every Sunday and to Faith Formation classes every Wednesday no questions asked. I honestly never got anything out of going to church or those Faith Formation classes. I mean sure, I was always the “brightest” in my Faith Formation classes because I was always able to answer the questions about Catholic tradition and other bible-influenced things, but to me it was just information, I got no feelings of “comfort” or “belonging” from it.
Jasper,
You left out numerous androgeny scenarios. For example, Klienfelters syndrom (XXY). There are people who don’t identify with gender roles at all, androgyne, not to mention people psychological uncomfortable with their own gender (gender dysphoria). Your simplistic analysis not only dismisses consideration of the rare, but doesn’t even acknowledge the more common.
Jasper,
Why is okay for these people who have both parts to have re constructive surgery and not okay for say a male to become female?
Also what do these “rare” people do, who have both parts? Are they not allowed to get married because they are literally neither only female or only male but both male or female…
My friend knows someone who had an enlarged clitoris when she was born… the doctors “corrected” it and now she feel NO STIMULATION whatsoever.
Jasper,
Why is okay for these people who have both parts to have re constructive surgery and not okay for say a male to become female?
Also what do these “rare” people do, who have both parts? Are they not allowed to get married because they are literally neither only female or only male but both male and female…
My friend knows someone who had an enlarged clitoris when she was born… the doctors “corrected” it and now she feel NO STIMULATION whatsoever.
Mary,
You’re speculating on brangelina based on tabloid speculation. The judgements regarding Mel are result of his POLICE RECORD.
Rae: “I was always able to answer the questions about Catholic tradition and other bible-influenced things, but to me it was just information, I got no feelings of “comfort” or “belonging” from it.”
Rae, I believe you may have a change of heart later on in life, as when I was your age I had some of those feelings myself. But you shouldnt always let “feelings” rule the day…..
Your Salvation through Jesus Christ should give you comfort through all of your tough times, etc.
@Jasper: It didn’t. I wasn’t comforted by Scripture nor was I comforted by “God’s Love”. I honestly got NOTHING out of believing in God and believe me I tried. I used to read my children’s bibles (and my parents got me pretty decent ones, they were re-written into an easy-to-understand way for kids, not the cheesy ones with pictures) and I had all sorts of Catholic books from my mom’s days in religion courses.
I would read these things all the time. I would pray before I went to bed. I would pray at church. I went to church every Sunday and listened to what was being read but no matter what I did, no matter how I tried to “talk to God” I got nothing. All I got was guilt, guilt and more guilt. Finally, I had had it.
After my uncle died and my mom’s family more or less fell apart into feuding, I gave up. To me, the fact that God let my uncle die knowing what it would do to my family pretty much proved that if there is a God, he sure isn’t merciful, nor is he terribly loving. If anything, he had abandoned us.
To me, it was easier to reconcile what happened to my family as well as what was happening in the world at the time with the fact that there was no God and that religion was a crock. And to be frank, that was more comforting to me than the thought of a supposedly loving and benevolent being letting genocides and wars occur and letting people die so that entire families erupt into feuding.
So no, my heart won’t change. It’s been over 6 years and there has been “no change”. The world still sucks now as it did then.
“Also what do these “rare” people do, who have both parts? Are they not allowed to get married because they are literally neither only female or only male but both male and female…”
@JM: I believe these people do not have gender confusion. It seems that even with ambiguous genitalia, these kids “know” if they are intrinsically male or female. yes, then can get married… why not.
…
@Cam: I don’t really know what the church teaches about people with those other conditions, but I’ll bet it includes compassion and dignity… the same as any other human..
http://www.probe.org/content/view/1195/47/
“The world still sucks now as it did then.”
Rae, this is a fallen world… how would any of us understand the goodness of God if all we ever experienced was “Good”.
please read when you get a chance:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0019.html
The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God. More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of evil than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it’s not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it. That’s why the Book of Job is so arresting.
@Jasper: That makes no sense, we could still know the goodness of God if all we knew was Good. God could make it that way, could he not? He’s all powerful, he could easily make us know how Good he was even if everything else in the world was Good.
No no no Rae… all powerful magic mad in the sky, for some reason, is nothing without us belonging to a similarly identifying group of people first and foremost.
“I believe these people do not have gender confusion. It seems that even with ambiguous genitalia, these kids “know” if they are intrinsically male or female. yes, then can get married… why not.”
Jasper
You “believe” these people aren’t confused… how do you know, have you spoken to these people? Have they told you that they “feel female” or “feel male” Even so.. the have female parts and male parts therefor they are neither MALE or FEMALE. To be biologically male you have a penis.. to be biologically female you have a vagina. You church teaches that a male must marry a female. You church teaches you that a male must have sex or make love to a female…
Also you say these people feel one way or the other… if I am female and feel male is it “okay” for me to make love to another female? (according to you church) I “feel” male… so its okay right?
You forgot submit JM.
Woman must submit to man urges and demands. Hmmmm christianity kind of sounds fun like that.
JM, I’ve figured it out. We aren’t as bold as Cameron.
Although I don’t post as much as I used to, I do have to smile every time I see Cameron’s posts.
You’re a smart man, Cameron. Too bad Hisman has a boy crush on you and won’t talk to anyone else.
And Hisman, before you get YOUR panties in a bunch and fear that I am insulting your manhood, remember it’s a joke and you still haven’t replied to my post about the “submission” problem.
I can repost it if you like.
Wakey time in the UK.
HisMan, it is a fact that the vatican did not stand against the Third Reich during the Holocaust. Their “official” stance was to look the other way because they feared the strength and pull of the Third Reich.
Now address the rest of my post. For your convenience, I’ll repost it here with the part you already addressed removed. Your “explanation” of the Crusades is crap, so you’re going to have to re-justify the breaking of the fifth commandment a few hundred thousand times over.
Actually, if you look at the original Hebrew (doubt you can read it) you will see that it has, in fact, been changed quite a bit.
If you had, say, a business model that was 2,000 years old, had been translated into about 10 different languages and contexts, handled by politicians and people who saw their kingdom potentially slipping from them, and were told ?this is a 100% perfect business model,? would you believe it? Logically, you wouldn?t. Why is this book exempt from logic?
You say that I live in the flesh; you don?t know me and you assume this from? actually, I don?t know from where you derive this assumption.
How do you know the claims are false? It speaks of things that the Bible does not, but it doesn?t speak precisely against the Bible. Does the Bible say that Jesus preferred red wine or white wine? Nope. Even though it wasn?t recorded doesn?t mean it?s not true. You can?t prove it?s not true, so you continually just scream ?HERETIC,? and hope that nobody catches on that you have no proof.
Would Jesus? teachings mean any less if he had a wife and child? Seriously, I want an answer. If you can explain to me to a satisfactory degree why his teachings would mean any less if he had a wife and child, then maybe I?ll believe you. I doubt that you can.
Do you still believe that we live under a dome and that the Earth is at the center of the universe? No, because scientifically we have been able to prove that it?s simply not true. Do you actually think that the planet is 6,000 years old? It would be ludicrous, as carbon dating and astrophysics prove otherwise. How do you explain The Crusades, Northern Ireland, aaaaand so on? and still say the Church has never defied itself, especially the fifth Commandment, ?Thou Shalt Not Kill??
If you recall, also in the chapter of Leviticus that calls homosexuality an abomination, there are a great number of rules that we don?t follow. These include sewing together different fabrics (enjoy your cotton-poly blends?) working on the Sabbath, the ownership of slaves, stoning your wife publicly in town? lots of things that we ignore now. The reasons that homosexuality was considered evil at the time were that (1) males were more likely to die in infancy, hence there were less adult men, hence men who did not marry women left a lot of women not to be sold to their future husbands, (2) men were thought to have a limited supply of ?seed,? hence spilling it with another guy would limit the propagation of the tribes of Israel, and (3), having sex with another man would make one of the men be ?like a woman,? hence it would be a disrespectful position for a man to be like a lower life form. So we have one reason based on outdated science and 2 based on misogynistic views?.
In Corinthians, in a very commonly quoted verse says ?All past prophesies shall perish, and all that remains are faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.? As Christians, why do we allow some of these prophesies to perish but keep the ones that allow us to propagate hatred?
Cameron,
Correction. I base my opinion on what I observe of her behavior. If anything, the tabloids and media fawn over them. I don’t buy any of it. By the way, I’m of the opinion he is a good father. I spend little time reading tabloids since they all contradict each other anyway.
As for Mel, you are judging him as a father based on a drunk driving conviction. I have never seen how he interacts with his children so I have no opinion of him as a father. However, I don’t find his drunk driving conviction a big plus in the fatherhood department.
“As Christians, why do we allow some of these prophesies to perish but keep the ones that allow us to propagate hatred?”
Fear and insecurity. As displayed perfectly by HisMan and his constant need to prove and legitimize his faith. There is no greater sign of insecurity than the constant desire to tell everyone how infallible and correct you are in bullyish fashion.
Cameron, I saw her french kiss her brother. It was on some awards show. She grabbed him and put him in a lip lock.
i don’t know if someone else said this but what about Billy Ray Cyrus (the dad of Miley Cyrus aka Hannah Montana?) They are Christians and I really like that she speaks out about modesty.
Amanda, have you ever stopped to think for a momment that Hisman is spreading the gospel because he loves God and is following His command? Have you considered the possibility that Hisman tell you of God’s love because he loves you?
Lauren-
I can’t speak for Amanda, but as I stated earlier.. If heaven is full of hisman’s then I’d rather be in hell. In my opinion hisman is judgmental, uncaring, and unloving. I do not feel loved, or cared about… What I do feel is judged, because I have certain ideas or values that are different from his that I AM WRONG. That god sees me as a bad and horrible person. I don’t believe in a God like hisman’s. I believe in a God that accepts people for who they are… and loves me or us no matter what.
JM, forget Hisman. Hisman isn’t God. Your views on Hisman are completely inconsequential to your relationship with God (no offense Hisman).
Do you believe God gave us free will?
Yvette:
Met a Pual Scanlon yesterday at my church. Guess he;s tearing up the UK. You should seek his church out as you might learn something.
With regard to your biblical interpretations, I have never seen a more convoluted and twisted notion of biblical exegesis in an attempt to get the Bible to say what you want it to say.
One example is your use of the, “if there are prophesies they shall perish”.
That verse is preceded by “when the perfect comes”. What is the perfect? Some say it is the Bible and others say it is Christ. If it is the Bible then your argument is bogus. If it is Christ, well He hasn’t come since Paul penned those words has He?
I thought the DaVinci Code was fiction, brainiac? It’s apparent that many on this site have a hard time differentiating between fact and fiction.
Are you saying the entire OT is to be ignored then? You simply can’t be taken seriously. There are plenty of NT prohibitons against homosexuality.
Amanda,
You haven’t got a clue.
Jan C:
Let’s see, you say I have a boy crush on Cameron and I wear panties?
I don’t wear panties. Sorry to dissappoint you. Guess I haven’t reached that stage of liberal enlightenment yet.
A crush on Cameron? No, close, it’s really that I would like to crush Cameron, however, my Christian faith restrains me.
Not trying to ignore you, however, sometimes it’s difficult to keep track of all the posts.
So, repost if you would like.
Lauren-
According to hisman,(who still hasn’t answered my question from yesterday) I need to do this and that and this and that to get into heaven. The fact that I support homosexuals and womens right to choose sends me to hell in his opinion. I don’t want to be in heaven if it is filled with judgments… and filled with people who to be honest are like hisman(no offense). I believe in a God that loves everyone for who they are and the choices they make.
Yipeee for hisman and anyone else who has a faith.. good for you… but that isn’t for everyone and when hisman “preaches” It just pushes me farther and father and FARTHER away from it… which is funny considering he thinks he’s “helping” me…
I look at people like Bethany and others on this site who don’t force their beliefs down other peoples throat and I’m not sure what i’m trying to say… I guess i could say they don’t push me farther away like hisman does, or others like him.
I guess what i mean is I believe in a God that accepts the choices we make.
His Man, Great post! LOL @response to Cameron!
JM, I understand that it is frustrating to feel like you are being judged. I remember feeling that way before I became Christian. I was Unitarian for a time because I felth they were less judgemental. No realization changed my mind, it was more a change of spirit. However,if you believe that God gives us free will, you must believe that we have a choice to follow Him.
If this is the case, we must also have a choice not to follow Him.
God makes it clear that we all fall short of His glory and can not redeem ourselves. So He redeemed us and asked only that we believe.
It *is* hard to accept Christ because in doing so we must confess that we have sinned. We all have sinned, and in our hearts we know this to be true. Our good deeds do not balance out our sins. In fact our “good deeds” do not bring us into the kingdom of Heaven. Only Christ has that ability.
Thankfully, the price of admission is easy, and God’s yoke is easy, we simply must surrender our selves and embrace God. Remember that God loved the world enought that all who choose would be able to come. In light of that, understand that the cross was necessary for our salvation.
Were we able to find God alone, there would be no reason for Christ to die. God was willing to sacrifice for us, asking only that we sacrifice our pride and ask for His forgiveness.
I hope that this truth will speak to your soul. I believe that you are a good person, and I really do care about you.
JM, you say that if heaven is full of people like His Man you would rather be in Hell. Would you rather be in a place surrounded by people like Hitler?
JM, God transforms hearts. You need only repent and accept Him an He will do the rest. None of us are in the same place spiritually as we were the moment we first accepted Jesus. Following Jesus will change your views on some things, but it doesn’t mean you’ll become a card carrying republican (though you might ;)). The important part is to accept Jesus and profess Him as King. The Spirit will impress upon you the rest as you read and pray.
Who knows, your calling may be to perserve God’s creation and give Him glory through nature. It will all be revealed. Don’t think of it as an itemized road map to Heaven, think of it as why you were put on this Earth. Faith in Jesus not only saves your soul, it begins a journy here on Earth!
Hisman:
I
Lauren,
I guess they want me to be a seeker friendly type and hence all the rants agaainst me are designed either to shut me up or have me change what I say. It won’t work because my reasons for blogging here are not to be popular. I simply want to speak truth to a lost generation, something that is sorely needed in today’s world. The devil hates that and wants it to stop but through God’s grace I will continue.
It seems that many on this site have a hard time dealing with the fact that there are absolute rights and wrongs as expressed in God’s Word. Not only do they want to change what the Bible says but deny the very existence of the God who produced the Bible or try to make people think that it’s says what they want it to say. It’s really very arrogant.
Hence they see as my speaking of the word as my judgement of them. It is not I that judges but the word of God spoken that judges and I don’t pretend to know the minds and hearts of the people on this site. I don’t need to and don’t care to know. Remember that the Bible says of itself that it is a two edge sword that really cuts through all they layers of junk and walls and sin. It’s like a light saber.
Therefore it does not surprise me that I am spoken of with much rejection and villification when I speak God’s Word.
I don’t worry though for my own well being and what people think about me because I know that seeds have been planted. Some seeds will land on good soil, some won’t.
I press on toward the goal of the high calling of faith in Jesus Christ.
Hisman, when I read what you write I’m always reminded of that passage that says something along the lines of “some will be won to God with love, and some with fear”.
People find God in different ways and while most may say they perfer one method, some require a different approach.
As long as you are preaching the gospel, I applaud you in your efforts. Your ways are not mine, but we are sowing different seeds that all grow to the same glorious garden.
Yes…. us aweful pawns of satan, villifying you and… OMG… asking you questions you can’t answer.
LMAO
I think your higher calling might actually be drama and theatre.
Yvette,
Yes you’re absolutely right, the exercise of your gifts exempt you from going to church and seeking God. Right…….another display of visions of grandeur and self-importance which typically lead one away from God. Apart from repentance, the temporal stuff you attach so much imporatance to in one hundred years, in a thousand years will have all passed away and made no difference. You will have traded the temporal for the eternal, the ultimate satanic used car deal. I can see satan laughing now in his plaid sportcoat and white shoes in anticipation of your destruction. I hope you change your tune because I care and it doesn’t have to be that way.
You will be assigned to oblivion written out of the Lamb’s Book of Life forever gone from the memory of God because by your words that’s what you have chosen so far and that’s what you will be granted.
Now on to your question. The Gospels, the Epistles, etc. never speak of Jesus as being married or having children. Therefore, I can’t answer that very hypothetical question as to whether Jesus being married or having children would have diminished His role as Savior. If it was God’s will I am sure He would have decided to reveal that. Besides the Book of Revelation gives a very stern warning as adding to any revealed truth.
Knowing His fate that He would have to die on a cross, it would have been very selfish to have a wife and children knowing He would be leaving them. The Bible talks about men who abandon their familes as being worse than infidels (i.e., pro-aborts killing their children) so for that reason alone I think it would have been horribly hypocritical for Jesus to have been married with children.
The purpose of marriage is to make the participants holy and for pro-creation. Why would a completely Holy God need to be made holy? And pro-creation, He made it all anyway. Besides the church is Jesus’ bride and to have a physical wife would have subjected him to committing adultery. It is oxymoronic to believe that Jesus was married or had children and it is a saatanic ploy at deflection away from truth and evidenced by your buying into it. I am not ignorant of his schemes.
Please consider getting off the wide road that leads to perdition and on the narrow road that leads to life. Perhaps your prideful attitude will draw you away from being just another common soul lost for eternity who made no real difference.
Jesus was focused on the will of His Father like a laser beam. To have a family and children would have split His focus and attention and put Him in conflict with God’s requriement that a father and husbamd give their full attention to wife and family. Besides, the Bible says that it is better to not be married unless of course you cannot control yourself sexually.
Your assumptions are not hard to debunk just based on this few minutes of thinking about it.
Jesus was not married, He did not have children, unless of course you don’t count the billions He died for on the cross and will be spending eternity with. Now what do you think he thinks is important, the temporal or the eternal?
I would rather be counted as an complety imperfect and humble sinner who repented, sought Jesus with all my heart, and in doing so recieve an eternal inheritance with my Savior to reign forever with Him.
Cameron,
As you often do, speaking hastily demonstrates your true character and lack of wisdom.
It takes time to run two businesses, help with ministry, be a husband, a dad and immediatley respond to questions on this site.
You make a huge mistake in assuming that I am avoiding any questions posed to me. I am not afraid to answer any legitimate question and to think otherwise of me is simply, wrong. I am here to lead people away from the likes of you and to help the likes of you escape from yourselves so it is very important to me. However, I am only one person with limited time.
For the record, I have to go now have a luncheon with my NFL buddies. Is that OK Cameron?
Love how HisMan didn’t answer my post. Maybe all the innuendos scared him. Maybe innuendos are to HisMan as holy water is to vampires. Or cold iron and faries. Either way, I find it terribly entertaining.
Less, Hisman is indeed entertaining. He’s like something out of the 14th Century.
You can’t Torcemada anyyything! *cheese music go!*
That won’t make any sense if you’ve not seen the History of the World, but whatever.
He quite reminds me out of something from the 14th Century. Unfortunately, people such as him exist in this century as well: even more unfortunately, the vast majority are just as loud, pompous, and irrepressibly annoying in real life as on message boards.
I’m sure that’s true, Less, but I’ll consider myself lucky to have never met anyone like him. (and I even have a friend who is in the clergy)
What’s interesting to me is that this site is getting more and more rational people posting. Yvette is a recent example. Much more interesting, and more a representative sample of “real life.” If Jasper, Jill, Heather, Bethany and Hisman could only talk to themselves all day they’d probably think their views were in the majority.
It’s good to know that there are some sane clergy. ;) I only know a handful of people like him (unfortunately, my fiance’s mom falls into that category), and they are certainly in the minority. The Catholic church that my parents go to, believe it or not, is known for it’s more liberal clergymen. The last one was fond of blonde jokes and was a proponent of removing the celibacy requirement for priests: he was an amazing guy.
I find it interesting that more rational people are posting as well. There are so few people who are pro-life without exceptions, and even fewer who go at it with all the obsessive force of HisMan. To be honest, I had never really discussed anything with anyone who was pro-life before coming to this site: even now, all of my arguments regarding abortion take place online. I can count the number of pro-lifers I know on one hand: and I live in Texas!
Excuse me, I forgot my antecedent: the second sentence should read: I only know a handful of people like him…referring to HisMan.
I could very easily spend the next 20 minutes constructing a post to rip yours apart, but I have a thesis to wrap. For now, I shall leave you with this…
Consider if you’ve been lied to. How would your world change if one day God herself walked down the golden path and said “sorry, you got it wrong”? Look up the similarities from all the world religions from all of history and observe, quite simply, that they’re used to control our thoughts, actions, and financial flow. It’s crowd control, plain and simple. Step outside the Bible that’s story that’s obviously been beaten into you for so long and consider, just consider, the possibility that it’s wrong. Consider, for one tiny example, that Herod died before Jesus was approximated to be born and that there is no historical record of the Massacre of the Innocents other than in the Gospel of Matthew. I could go on with the historical inaccuracies, but seeing as you’ve told me to go do my own homework (which I clearly have), I’ll tell you to do the same.
God is good, but men are corrupt. To be vain enough to think that the political hustlers who handled the Bible were above pandering it for their own gain is simple gullibility.
I believe that if we all actually followed Jesus’ teachings of love and acceptance that the world would be a better place, and I believe in our own capacity for kindness. The institution of religion rarely offers these two experiences.
JM – you said you couldnt speak for me, but you actually said pretty much exactly what I would have said.
If HisMan truly represents what Christianity is, instead of just a raging insecure bully, Id like to be as far from that as I possibly could be. Forunately for me, I recognize insecurity when I see it, and know better than to associate his ridiculousness with Christianity in general. Its just a shame that just by the nature of the beast, bullys tend to be louder than the humble faithful.
“For the record, I have to go now have a luncheon with my NFL buddies. Is that OK Cameron?”
We really don’t give hoot what excuses you have for not answering questions. It would certainly be OK if you stopped pussy-footing around though like a 5 year old confessing his first shoplifting offense.
Yevette, you are missing an important part of Jesus’ ministry. He indeed walked amongst sinners, but he called them to repentance. He said to believe in Him AND turn away from sin.
God warned that not all who claim to know Jesus really do. If you truly believe that Jesus is Savior, you must believe that you are in need of a savior.
Many claim to know Him, yet refuse His calling and deny His works. Have you full accepted Him if you continue to walk in your fallen ways?
You seem to believe that none of us have questioned our faith and found Jesus as the answer. Why is this so hard for you to believe? Why, to fit in your box, must we have been browbeaten into submission?
“You seem to believe that none of us have questioned our faith and found Jesus as the answer. Why is this so hard for you to believe?’
Because it makes No Sense. None. But have it if you want. There are consequence, however, for believing in things that don’t exist. People will think you’re crazy.
Tell me why it makes No Sense. None.
I’m not going to pretend to have a rational discussion about a series of such irrational beliefs. Believe what you want, just don’t expect to be taken seriously.
Hal, would you act this way if I were Hindu? You know nothing about my beliefs save that I believe in Jesus as Savior.
I have a very different view on matters of doctrine than most, but that is inconsequential to you because you have written off my beliefs before ever hearing them.
Most people I know are willing to listen to others regardless of their personal views on the issue. While either party may persuade, they are ususally amicable.
It seems you would rather live safely in your bubble of caricatured believers than have a discussion. How sad.
Rae “@Jasper: That makes no sense, we could still know the goodness of God if all we knew was Good.”
no Rae, we couldn’t.
Rae “God could make it that way, could he not? He’s all powerful, he could easily make us know how Good he was even if everything else in the world was Good.”
God wants us to believe in Him with our free will Rae. There’s a reason for this. He wants us to choose Good (the truth) over evil.
what do you say Rae? want to give the church (Jesus) another try? I’m praying for you….
@Jasper: Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, but I’m sorry, it most likely isn’t going to happen. There are just too many things that I disagree with and I honestly don’t believe that Jesus was the Son of God. I think that Jesus was a great man who had many wonderful ideas but other than that, he was just a man to me.
But I do thank you for answering my questions and taking the time to do so. :)
Rae….. your last post sounded so much like my sister!!! It’s scary!
Rae, Do you deny Jesus’ Diety or simply His relationship to the “Father”.
Brad Pitt got the #1 dad spot!?!?
He’s just an adulterer that should have been executed shortly after his adultery had been established.
Same with Lance Armstrong who left his aging wife and children for a hot piece of celebrity ass.
Wow, Quinn,
Someone still believes in Old Testament crime and punishment.
Should we stone him, or will one of the modern day execution methods be just as kosher. We can speed him to the head of the line, in front of people who have committed less serious offenses such as terrorists and serial killers
“Hal, would you act this way if I were Hindu? You know nothing about my beliefs save that I believe in Jesus as Savior.
* * *
It seems you would rather live safely in your bubble of caricatured believers than have a discussion. How sad.”
Yes, I feel the same way about Hindus. You guys caricature yourselves. You might have very “refined” beliefs, and we may even agree on many things, but if you think Jesus has saved you, that particular belief is not worthy of furhter discussion. It’s preposterous and you can’t complain if you’re ridiculed for it.
Hal I most certainly can complain about being ridiculed when I have been nothing but respectful of the beliefs of others. If I came in here saying “STUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID PAAAAAAGGGGGGGGANs” you might have a point, but I haven’t done that.
I ask that you treat me with respect, something you have shown yourself quite unable to do.
Lauren, I think my tone has been a bit off. I have probably transfered some of my frustration towards others (who shall remain nameless) to you without cause. I certainly owe you and others respect. We’re all human and in this sometimes difficult journey through life together. I am well aware that a majority of people believe in a higher power of some kind, and a majority of Americans believe in God. I don’t “respect” that belief, but I have no ill feelings towards all these people. I guess people’s religious perspective is so tied up with who they are and how they perceive themselves that a challenge to the belief seems to be an attack on the whole person. I didn’t intend that.
Imagine you came accross an isolated tribe worshipping palm leaves. You might respect their devotion, and understand the cultural and historical reasons for thier practices, and you would even be willing to admit they were decent and intelligent people. But I don’t think you would seriously consider their religious practices and beliefs to be at all relevant to your life.
That is EXACTLY how I view you guys.
Like you, they don’t deserve to be riduculed. Their beliefs, however, like yours, are a bit quaint.
Hal, up into that last statement you were doing great. I appreciate your willingness to admit that your tone was a bit off. I know mine has been as well.
But…Then you end it with how a strike about the “quaintness” of my beliefs.
I understand that you don’t agree with me, but to belittle someone’s devotion as quaint is hurtful. I’m sure the palm leave worshiping people would be offended to have their sincere devotion disregarded.
The problem is this, our religious views do impact the lives of those around us. If we are living amongst the palm worshipers, we should try to understand them. This is not to say we shouldn’t share our faith with others, but merely that we should respectfully acknowledge their faith even when we disagree.
The truth is that a persons faith does influence their interactions. In this way my belief in God affects you. It would be prudent to talk to those who believe differently than you in order to better understand those around you. You might be suprised at what you discover.
In the spirit of that, what-if any- are your beliefs on God, The Afterlife ect. I’m sorry if you’ve already explained them elsewhere on this site, I just missed them.
I don’t mind immigrants coming to this country and having rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES. America is the place that soooo many around the world long for…they will get here at any cost. They come here thinking that “the land” has some freedom and they can do what they want here. Yet they complain about our “beliefs” and the Christianity that our country was founded on! The freedom that we have didn’t come with our land, we have freedom BECAUSE of the RULES we have. It’s The Constitution. And because of the men who fought and gave their lives to keep those beliefs and rules in place! If you don’t like the beliefs our country was founded on then go somewhere else! No one is telling you to stay here!
go find this “tolerance” you long for and see how that works for you.
Lauren,
It is my opinion that there is no “God” in the traditional sense. (I am certain that the “God of the Bible” is a complete fabrication) Probably no God at all. I don’t believe there is any afterlife of any kind. It might be nice if we could live after “death” but I see no evidence of that. No convincing evidence anyway. I do know that some people say they have seen ghosts.
Why are you certain there is not God of the bible?
well, this is where we started yesterday. Because it makes no sense. Either the Bible is the literal word of god and all true, or it’s not. It claims to be the literal word of god. It’s internally inconsistent and it’s inconsistent with what we now know of the world. It’s just not credible. To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The bigger the claim, the bigger the amount of evidence which should be required. There is no claim bigger to us earthlings then the claim in the Bible about who we are and how we were created. But for proof all we get is “faith.” Unanswered questions are “mysteries.” God’s plan will be revealed “someday”
Try explaining to some space traveler the story of this ancient virgin woman who gives birth to the son of God. Can you do it with a straight face?
I’m no biblical scholar. (Nor do I wish to be one.) My opinion is that this is all ancient superstition, it’s preposterous.
There really is no reason for God to be so coy about everything. If he is so powerful and loves us so much, is there really any reason he couldn’t pop out one day and explain everything? (I know, He has reasons we don’t understand)
i actually don’t believe Hitler was real either, he is just a figment of someone’s imagination.
in a couple thousand years people can say that about Hitler just because they didn’t live close to his time. It’s written in history! You can believe what you want though, i have no problem with that.
I could explain to a space traveler as easily as I can to you. Take that as you will.
As for the inconsistancies, you’ll need to be more specific. I can assume what you’re talking about, but we all know what happens when we do that. I’ll wait to launch into a tyrade until I know exactly what you’re talking about.
As for theology of God, I actually belive quite a bit differently than most. I’m going to take as shower, but why don’t you read this while I’m gone…
http://tabernaclepraiseblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/perspective-of-oneness-theology.html#links
I don’t know if this will make that an impression on you or not, but it might help explain some of the “inconsistancies” about God’s nature.
Knowing Hitler was a historical person that killed millions of people is very different than believing that there was a person who was born from a virgin and performed countless miracles and came back to life after he died.
Even knowing Jesus was an actual historical person is different than believing in his divinity.
Thanks Lauren, I read it.
I’d prefer to decline a debate on theology with you, I’m far from an expert. Others have written volumes on it. And different others have written volumes in rebuttal.
You asked me what I believe, and then asked me why. I can’t add to much more than none of it sounds convincing to me, or appealing to me, or rational to me. If it is those things to you, I have no objection.
Hal, I wasn’t so much asking for a debate as giving you more information.
Not many people are familiar with Oneness theology. As many people struggle with the father/son relationship found in Trinitariansim, I thought it might be helpful to see a different approach. I know such was the case for me.
Anyways, one more question to better understand where you’re coming from.
How does atheism improved you life? What benefit is it to you to reject God?
“How does atheism improved you life? What benefit is it to you to reject God?”
Keeps me honest I suppose. Would you believe in palm leaf worship if it improved your life. I don’t think so. I do the best I can with what I’ve got. I don’t see myself as “rejecting” god as simply ignore the whole concept.
By the way, thank you for the link to Oneness theology, I did find it interesting.
No problem, you can dig around a bit on that site to find other “Oneness” issues about Jesus’ incarnation and the like. That page is just a general overview.
The reason I asked “what does atheism do for you?” is because we generally only do the things that are beneficial to us in some way.
For instance, even giving to charity is a “selfish” act because we feel good about doing it.
So, logically, “ignoring God” as you say, is in some way benefiting your life. Perhaps it just means you don’t have to follow rules that you see as arbuitrary. Perhaps it frees you from guilt. Whatever the reason, there generally IS one.
I’m not sure I completely understand your response. You say it “keeps you honest”. By that do you mean that you don’t “feel” or “see” anything to religion so ignoring it is intellectually honest?
So the real question isn’t “would I worship palm leaves if they improved my life?”, but rather “what would worshiping palm leaves DO to improve my life?”.
I have no problem with trying to improve our lives. I certainly try to live a better life. Pretending to believe in God would not improve my life. Actually believing in God might, I suppose. I don’t know. But I don’t, so it’s a moot point.
I’m not choosing to be an atheist. We are all atheists unless we chose to believe in God. I have not done that because (in addition to finding it unbelievable) I don’t see that it would be beneficial to me in any way.
Lauren, hypothetically, worshipping palm leaves might improve your life in many ways (if we imagine a whole theology that would go along with it) Still, wouldn’t you find it hard to swallow, the divinity of Palm Leaves? Would you really be open to such worship if it “improved your life?” I think if we’re intellectually honest, we don’t buy into a whole system of beliefs that make no sense to us, even if there are benefits.
Hal, I’m honestly not asking you to buy into God for his “benefits”.
I’m asking you in what ways athesism benefits you. Or perhaps put a different way, how does choosing not to accept God benefit you?
It seems to me that the benefit is that you don’t have to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense to you. I don’t mean that as a “slam”, nor even a negative, just an observation.
Basically it seems that by not accepting that there is a higher power, you are able to not feel in conflict over your beliefs. You can say “well God doesn’t exist” instead of “well, God does exist but I need to justify X belief with Y belief or it doesn’t make sense…how can this be done?”
Sorry, I pushed “Post” too soon.
Anyways, not having to balance seemingly conflicting views in order to form a cohesive world view is certainly a benefit. It may or may not be a benefit for you.
Do you see what I mean?
I’m not saying that we should choose X religion because of its benefits, but rather that whatever religion we choose has benefits to us.
I’m probably not explaining myself well. Perhaps an example of why my beliefs benefit me?
I benefit because through my religion I have hope. Obviously if I didn’t believe in God’s Word, I would not find hope in it. However, because I believe, I am given hope.
What does a state of disbelief “give” in the way that belief “gives” hope?
“What does a state of disbelief “give” in the way that belief “gives” hope?”
Nothing.
we may be talking past each other, since we look at things so differently. I don’t “choose not to accept God.” From my perspective the question never comes up. There is no God. I have no choice to make. There are nothing to try to understand. There is no need to justify any of my decisions in that context. The whole idea is as irrelevant to me as palm tree worshippers or Zeus worshippers, or Christ worshippers. You don’t choose to ignore Zeus, it was probably never even seriously considered as an option to you. Probably a bit quaint perhaps?
I believe that atheists feel that they don’t need a religion to make their lives worthwhile, or to be happy with themselves. I know a lot of people who are perfectly content with their lives that don’t subscribe to a particular religion. Its not disbelief in God that gives atheists hope, but they can find hope in other things.
But I am not an atheist, correct me if I’m wrong, Hal.
Sure,JK, I have hope about a lot of things. Hope that tomorrow will he a brighter day, hope that my children will make the world a better place. Not hope in an afterlife. But I have hope. Lauren was not specifically asking where I find hope, but what, if anything, I gain by my state of disbelief. I did my best to answer above.
Hal, I don’t buy the “never a considerable option” bit. Here’s why. Your exposure to the Judeo-Christian God has been far more extensive than exposure to Zeus.
We live in a country where “In God we Trust” is printed on our money. “Under God” is a part of our national pledge. The concept of a “creator” is written into our constituition.
Just as marginal church of England describes most British, marinaly Christian describes most Americans. I find the claim that you have simply always “known” that there is no God to be disinginuious given how entrenched the idea of a higher being is in our society.
Perhaps you never made the decision to “reject God”, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had any sort of consideration twoards God. In fa
Since I’m obviously not reaching you to ask what you personally gain from atheism, let me ask you something different. What do you beleive *I* would gain, were I to realize that God does not exist. Tell me what is “good” about atheism and why I should embrace it.
You say that atheism gives nothing, why would I want to embrace a theology that leaves me void?
“What do you beleive *I* would gain, were I to realize that God does not exist”
I’m not sure what you would gain. Maybe a different perspective on this life, if you knew there would be no other. Maybe other things.
But, as I think we both have acknowledged, we believe or don’t believe based on what we percieve as true and real. I assume you wouldn’t “reject” a God you believe in even it that belief caused you nothing but heartache and pain (that’s Job’s issue, right?) And I can’t “accept” a God I don’t believe in despite all the promise of eternal life and happiness.
“Rae, Do you deny Jesus’ Diety or simply His relationship to the “Father”.”
@Lauren: To answer your question, no I don’t believe Jesus’ Diety. I believe he was the son of God, but aren’t we all God’s children?
Lauren,
I’m assuming Hal won’t mind if I attempt to answer your question regarding the perks of non-belief… at least since you haven’t been sated by his repsonses.
When you speak of beliefs and ask about quality of life it’s pretty clear that you, like most religous people, have conflated your belief systems and your spirituality.
IMO spiritual and religious needs are two different things, and it’s telling to review the definitions of each in there various forms. Religion is intrinsically abstract, but intrinsic in sprituality is essence. It’s just as absurd of me to suggest the two are mutually exclusive as it is absurd of you to think that one cannot have one without the other, as you seem to be driving at with Hal.
Some people are spiritual and non-religous, some people are religious but souless, and then there’s a whole spectrum in between.
With that said, and the context framed, I’ll try to answer your question. Throughout history, interpersonally and intrapersonally, religion ultimately leads to conflict. I have tried and know religion, and I know that it conflicts with my spirituality, and it is apparent in a great many people around me, that it’s not without some baggage to say the least. There is no doubt in my mind that I’m better off without religion.
I guess what I find spiritually rewarding though is clarity. Those fleeting moments when everything is suddenly apparent and interconnected and etc…. It is during these moments that i know there’s much more to us and everything around us than meets the eye. These moments are generated by experiences… and the experiences need to be novel. Religion inhibits these moments by limiting one’s capacity for the novel experiences with dogma, and presuming to know all that is, or otherwise directing/deflecting/discouraging any further questions about it (e.g. HisMan get’s angry when I ask him difficult questions).
Any other questions?
To me, the obvious question is what on earth would someone find so rewarding with religion? I think it’s probably mostly about belonging and a sense of community… which is not a bad reason to embrace something… but I’m finding that elsewhere thank you very much.
Not to nitpick, Cameron, but I think there are other significant reasons to be religious. My religion (or spirituality, whichever your prefer to call it) isn’t organized, doesn’t have a community, and is very much a solitary activity. I purposefully do not have connections with those who believe similarly as I do, as I prefer the solitary connection that I receive.
I know that I continue to be religious because I enjoy the feeling of connection to a higher power. I enjoy the feeling that I’m connected, in a larger sense, to the universe. It’s very possible that those reasons are lumped into your categories, but if not, I wanted to point out that there are alternatives.
JK asked:
“Should we stone him, or will one of the modern day execution methods be just as kosher.”
It would cost around $20 to get a pile of stones and stone the convicted capital criminals to death. Firing squad is effective and low cost as well.
There are no retroactive punishments. Execution of convicted adulterers (the only just punishment) is only to be done after it has been re-criminalized.
Dear Quinny: “let he who has no sin cast the first stone,” mkay? So, while you’re right in that rocks are cheap, finding perfect people to cast them, well, that might be a bit more difficult.
What’s up with you, Quinny, someone cheat on ya?
@ Cameron, thanks that’s what I was looking for.
@Rae. We are all “sons of God” (unless you believe that after Seth we are “sons of Man”) but we are not the “Son of God”.
The terminology of “Son of God” was prophetic and dealt exclusively with the One who would be the Messiah.
Here’s the long version of that thought-
Jesus spoke of the Father after the common manner that any monotheist would have been familiar (i.e. “Father” in the Old Testament sense of the word – not the New) using phrases like, “your Father”, “thy Father”, “our Father”, “your heavenly Father”, “your Father which is in heaven”, “our Father which in heaven”, “my Father which is in heaven”, etc. The disciples and those He spoke to understood that He, being a monotheistic Jew, would make such references to God as being a father after the very manner that the scripture expressed.
It should be noted that one cannot divorce from their understanding of the use of the term father, the accordant understanding of the use of the term son. In other words, if we understand the manner in which the term “father” is used in the limited references within the Old Testament, we should also, thereby, understand how the term “son” is used as well. As mentioned previously, the Old Testament speaks of YHWH as being a father in the sense of creation. He created the heavens and the earth and all that is contained in them; including us as human beings made specifically in His likeness. All humanity falls into the category of “sons of God” in the sense that we are the creation of God. He is our “heavenly Father” because we are His creation. When Jesus spoke of the Father and even made reference to Himself as “Son of God”, most would not have immediately perceived a reference to anything more than this simple explanation (reference the Jews with whom Jesus spoke in John 8:41).
The more discerning observers of Jesus’ claims would have been alert to listen for Messianic references. As it was commonly understood that the Messiah would be the inheritor of the Davidic throne, the astute listener would have readily identified allusions to, claims of, and titles for this future ruler. One such title was “son of God” (II Samuel 7:12-16); and when spoken, these listeners would hear “son of God” and think “king of Judah.” The New Testament biblical record demonstrates a predilection towards understanding a reference by Jesus of sonship and fatherhood as meaning a Messianic claim to the Davidic throne – witnessed by Jesus’ own circle of disciples vying for positions of honor in what they presumed would be a soon coming earthly reign.
Clearly, though, Jesus’ use of and reference to the term “father” had a significantly deeper meaning; one that, if not revealed or explained in toto, would escape the discrimination of the casual observer. Obviously, those who were aware of Jesus’ miraculous birth had intimate knowledge of and insight into His use of the terms “father” and “son.” Mary, for one, who had been instructed by the angel Gabriel that the, “…holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35) would immediately recognize the significance of said terms when spoken by the Lord.
As an aside, take note of the use of tense in the above passage. If one purports to believe in the plenary inspiration of scripture, which asserts that all scripture is God-breathed and therefore profitable – even to the degree of tense, then the use of tense here must invoke a significant awareness to the believer. As noted previously, the term “Father” as it relates to progeny is incarnational in its focus. This passage correlates to that notion in that it relates the conception as the moment when the phrase “Son of God” took on a filial disposition (cf. Galatians 4:4). The Son had His beginnings of a woman at a specific point in time – not from the ethereal mists of eternity past.
As evidenced by Jesus