My new poll question this week, on the right, asks your understanding of the legal impact of Roe v. Wade’s overturn. My weekend question tackles the sociological impact:
If the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, what do you think the societal impact will be on America?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I think a lot of states would be trying to figure out what to do, and will probably put the issue up to vote.
I’m also probably sure there will be a lot of ruckus, mainly outcry from pro-choice and celebration from pro-life.
There would be outrage from pro choicers. I would be sipping champagne and dancing in the street!
Its simple… There would be back alley abortions that will be unsafe and would not only kill the fetus, but the women as well. Women will also try to abort the fetus themselves and pro-choice nurses and doctors will abort fetus’ illegally. Abortions will still happen weather its illegal or not.
none …. we’re in love with Death … 1st – others; then our own …. Kevorkian will lead us!
People here may call this pessimistic …. HisMan and I have made at least 3 serious suggestions in the last few months. Not one of them has gone anywhere but to the garbage can.
Folks – you is(present tense) dead!!! … and these are not just pro-choicers.
John,I read your post with your suggestion but I didn’t know how to respond because I wasn’t completely sure what you meant. Maybe you could clarify a little? I would love to respond but sometimes your posts go over my head a little bit.
As for the suggestions that Hisman had posted and you referred to, I agree with everything he said, 100%! I don’t know who is not taking his suggestions seriously in the pro-life side? Maybe I am missing something.
Well, each state would decide whether to keep abortion legal or not. Overturning Roe would not make abortions illegal, as some people think–it would leave the decision up to the states. As of right now, if Roe were overturned, abortion would remain legal in 43 states (I believe).
Certainly no babies will be saved. Abortions about demand and no law is going change demand.
Hi Bethany,
Sorry for not being clear enough
the teaching re. ‘personhood’ need not even be approached …. legislation can be enacted without even referring to personhood or viability.
“we’re in love with Death”
I’m confused. Aren’t you all just sitting around and waiting to be raptured away anyhow… when you’re not demonizing those that don’t share your notions??
Let em get abortions then. And then charge them with murder!!
Let em get abortions then. And then charge them with murder!!
Hi Cam,
Much of the ‘confusion’ you speak of, is just one more aspect of the ‘fear’ we had talked about earlier.
My Dad made a very interesting observation …. if you live in darkness/shadow you will shun(fear) the brightness of the Light. Death has a shadow quality to it … maybe because it is the unknown.
A good friend of mine said ‘When we were young priests we had all the right answers, but now that I’m in my 80’s (and death is close by), words somehow don’t fit!’ We talk and talk … sometimes just to convince ourselves.
“Let em get abortions then. And then charge them with murder!!”
And just how do you think you’re going to catch them.
I was being facetious John, however…
I’m intrigued that you’d invoke the trite culture of death rhetoric at your age. I suspect you’ve had some personal experience with people close to you dieng and suffering, and that you’ve had to consider things such as quality of life, cost-benefit, and welfare.
What do you mean by “in love with death.” It almost sounds like an overt attempt to sexualize, and thus further demonize political camps, not to mention it seems contradictory to invoke “fear” in response to my comment. Which is it? Are we loving it and embracing it, or are we scared and thus “unwise?”
Some states might actually outlaw abortion, and then their women would travel to other states for their abortions.
Ireland is the model for this. Irish women have no trouble getting abortions; they just travel to England.
After Barak Obama wins the presidency (still the most likely outcome) the Freedom of Choice Act will come up for consideration again. Whether right-to-lifers in the senate will be able to sustain a filibuster against it is an open question (democrats are going to win more senate seats in 2008, although one of them may be at the expense of a pro-choice republican (Susan Collins, R-Me)).
I don’t think there will be very many illegal abortions done in any case because women can just travel to a pro-choice state. Maybe in parts of the deeeeeep south.
Cameron, some will be.
John, each of those were great points. I like the insurance idea a lot. I haven’t got much time to talk about it today, but hopefully tomorrow I’ll have a little more time to post!
Good morning Bethany! My computer was down for a week.
Good morning Heather! I’m getting ready for church…missed you while you were away! :) I haven’t gotten a chance to reply to your email but will as soon as I can. :)
Laws(parental consent, informed consent, clinic regulaltions) are already passed on a state by state basis as it is. Go to the NARAL website and you will see the diminishing numbers of clinics in various states and the laws that are being passed. I’m convinced abortion acceptance in this country is dying a slow death Our opponents at NARAL are not happy about this. I think Roe V Wade or not, this trend will continue. Sure, rich women will have no trouble going somewhere else. So what else is new? You certainly don’t think rich women sat in the same clinic waiting rooms with young women from the housing project or Appalachian holler do you? I can assure you they went somewhere more discreet and private, like they always have.
Sure, desperate women will still get abortions. There will always be people desperate enough to commit any number of acts society simply cannot condone.
While I would like to see Roe V Wade overturned, I don’t know that it would make a vast difference at this point.
As for the argument that making abortion illegal won’t stop it, please name for me an illegal act that any law has ever completely stopped. Yet, wouldn’t we all agree there must be laws?
Mary made a great final point: Name another legal area where we don’t make a law because we know people will break it.
Smoggy, 2:45a, said: “After Barak Obama wins the presidency (still the most likely outcome) the Freedom of Choice Act will come up for consideration again.”
It’s interesting how liberals invoke federalism for abortion (FOCA) and state’s rights for homosexuality (DOMA).
Mary, how correct you are. Rape, murder, child molestation, theft, and drunk driving are all illegal, yet they still happen. I have noticed that people are being more careful with stricter DUI laws. Some have quit drinking. Some call cabs. Others will stay at a friend’s house. If abortion becomes criminal, we will see a change too.
Did passing the Civil Rights Act completely eliminate racism and bigotry? Did hate groups like the KKK completely fold up and disappear? Unfortunately, no. If I want to go join a hate or white supremist group of any kind, and there are plenty of them, I’m fully within my legal rights to do so, as we all are. For the record, I am NOT interested.
Given this, couldn’t one just as reasonably argue that Civil Rights legislation was totally worthless and should never have been passed?
Cam,
very interesting –
Biography – I am 60 years old and have a genetic disease that mimes most symptoms of multiple sclerosis except the age on onset is usually in childhood; unlike MS there are no periods of remission; and, the average age-of-death is 40 years old (for those hospitalized). So death is close to me, although I’m still not ‘familiar’ with it … have had at least two heart attacks … hemorrhagic kind.
I tried decades ago to organize a small group of this rare disease. So unlike most folks, I have personally met a few hundred FA’ers – many of whom have died.
I really like this …. “What do you mean by “in love with death.” It almost sounds like an overt attempt to sexualize, and thus further demonize political camps, not to mention it seems contradictory to invoke “fear” in response to my comment. Which is it? Are we loving it and embracing it, or are we scared and thus “unwise?” ”
It is very much like an episode of an old tv show ‘Kung Fu’ that had Grasshopper being tested as a novice monk. He was to walk a plank across what he believed was boiling water. There were skeletons of those who ‘failed’ in the pool’s bottom. So petrified with fear (what should have been easy) drew him like a magnet, and he fell in. He was not at all hurt, but his imaginings led him to really fear.
Maybe we all are in this same boat, but after years and years of death we say ‘so what’, [that’s being in love with death]. We only understand peace as a lack-of-violence and not a power in its own right. Similarly, love = a lack of hate.
You know, if someone wants an abortion, they’re going to get an abortion. That won’t change. What will change is that they might not be able to get one in time, and there might be more late-term abortions. Those women who want an abortion but aren’t desperate enough to resort to illegal methods or aren’t able to travel will have the kid and be horribly resentful of it. I know parents who are resentful of their kids now, I’d imagine that would increase.
Less,
These arguments were used to legalize abortion in the first place. If we’re going to legalize something because people will do it anyway, then we have to legalize every criminal offense on the books.
Resentful of the child? That’s an ancient argument as well. If abortion truly eliminated child abuse and neglect, then don’t you think that after 34 years of legal abortion child abuse and neglect should be virtually non-existent? You know parents resentful of their children now? Abortion is legal Less, how can there be parents resentful of their children?
So let’s kill babies because our society is so selfish that they resent their children. Let’s not worry about teaching people how to be good parents, how to strive toward selflessness, and overall good morals. And don’t promote adoption, let’s just assume that women who would have had an abortion will instead keep their child and just plain deal with resentment all their lives. Now that’s something to look forward to! How about the honor of bringing a child into the world and then giving that child to someone who desperately WANTS to have their own and can’t.
It is my understanding that there is a flip side to this. Some post abortive women BECOME abusive after they give birth. I know of one such woman. Some report that they have trouble bonding with the children that they do decide to give birth to. I think abortion screws a lot of women up psychologically. Of course the pro choice crowd wants to keep this quiet.
John,
I still don’t think your later “shun” version of “fear” of death is at all in harmony with the qualified passive “so what = in love” with it thing.
Hi Cam,
theoretically it may not seem so but opting out … which is what the ‘so-what’ is …. is extremely tempting when faced with a very slow degenerative process like mine. BTW it is called Friedreich’s Ataxia.
To stay even a bit sane, I need some kind of significance … especially if any purpose, or meaning, or understanding are very far away. This is very difficult to transmit especially to another FA’er who has known physical disabilities most of their life. I even had one friend die from a blood-clot to her kidneys two weeks before her wedding. She was 25 years old.
Friedreich’s Ataxia… one of my students had that. An older returning adult. He had trouble walking and holding things… generally uncoordinated, but always taking it in stride and in good spirits. He made me show him how to do his pedigree for autosomal recessive and calculate probabilities.
John- You have Freidreich’s Ataxia? Do have a pretty bad case of it? When were you diagnosed with it?
I, like cameron, had a student who had this… He was diagnosed this past year and it has gotten really bad. He is 15. He’s very uncoordinated and unbalanced. If he held onto the wall when he walked he would generally be okay. He speech is very slurred, I frequently had to has him to repeat himself. He makes me so sad because to be honest, i’m not sure he’ll see his high school graduation. This student tended to be a real jerk to anyone who worked with him. (I was a paraprofessional this past year) Most of the other paras hated working with him. Was it difficult.. Yes very! I found if i tried to relate with him on his level he would then work well with me. He was really into four wheeling, so i’d often ask him questions about that. I felt that when i was more his friend he was more likely to work with me.
Now I’m moving to Arizona to teach and I know he’ll be one student i’ll think and wonder about. It makes me so sad. Anyway, i’m sorry i’ve babbled on and on…
Whoa, I posted too soon, so sorry if there’s a double post.
Guess what, luv? Some people don’t want kids! I know you must find this difficult to comprehend, but some people just don’t want the “honor” of spawning. I do not want to be pregnant, do not ever want to be pregnant. I don
Guess what, luv? Some people don’t want kids! I know you must find this difficult to comprehend, but some people just don’t want the “honor” of spawning.
Im watching right now on the Today show about a woman who carried sextuplets for thirty weeks before delivery. Oh my. Six babies at once… Less, stay away from artificial insimination! =)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19187159/
WOW! That’s impressive!
Hi JM and Cam,
Glad to hear that you two have a more personal experience with FA. Because most people with FA have disabilities directly opposite of those ‘gifted’ in our society, they are very much challenged to find some worth.
Such is not often a principle priority for a care-giver, but it is for us. For a 15 year old much of this is still unspoken … he is caught between a society that rules by competition and a body that disallows any form of competing [ … maybe, that’s why he liked 4-wheelers – a ‘power’ he does not possess but can control, somewhat!]
Still able to walk at 15 (even holding onto walls) is not the worst … but poor. In my own case, FA is very mild, although most ‘normals’ would call me severely disabled.
FA seems to be one of those diseases caused by a deficit of zinc during gestation. Quantitative amounts are important, but timing and proper formation of the zinc-pool seems key as well. Puberty is difficult not only for physical and psychological growth, but it is also a time of high zinc needs for development. For kids with FA having someone like me around seems important … they CAN be hugged and seeing an old-man like me helps to overcome the idea that they will die very soon …. long before hey have become important.
[Just an aside JM, most workers for MDA (Muscular Dystrophy Association) are adamantly pro-abortion. Most severely disabled folk see absolutely no difference between themselves and the unborn. For them this is not theoretical. They believe if babies are disposable, then they are next. This is one of the big problems I have with Hal … a family with two daughters + 2 others killed through abortion. Nobody wants a handicap … does this mean that nobody wants us?]
Cam the delineation of genetic inheritance does little to specify who will have it and especially with recessive traits, such can be hidden for generations … its something like your great grandfather had pancreatic cancer, so it should be a big health worry. Such an attitude seems far-fetched until you find out my sister-in-law decided to divorce my brother to avoid having kids with FA … nonsense, but such is the nature of fear.
John, I’m not sure what your comment about me means. We didn’t have abortions because of fears of a handicapped child. I see a big difference between abortion and valuing people with disabilities.
Hi Hal,
the problem here occurs because there is more than one perspective. I do not doubt at all that you see a big distinction between these two. However, for many such distinctions do not exist (disabled and small children; most seniors too) … it’s something like parting your hair on one side of the head or the other. In classical philosophy such a distinction would be considered an accident … ie. not affecting the essence. An abortion is the annihalation of human life … an essence.
Once our director of the housing units for disabled people proclaimed she was pro-choice citing the same distinction as you. I asked a number of my fellow disabled tennants … many did not see such a distinction – but some did.
Ooh, artificial insemination makes me squeamish. If you’re not supposed to have kids, you’re not supposed to have kids. That’s just the way I look at it, but if you can pay for it, eh, more power to you.
Hal,
Been wanting to ask you…would your wife have the time/interest to post on this blog? It would be interesting to hear things from her point of view. Not that I’m doubting when you speak on her behalf; a woman communicates things differently sometimes, you know….and I’ve always been one to prefer hearing it “from the horse’s mouth”.
I have always wondered that too.
me three.
Okay. Look at the things you’ve said to Hal, please: that he’s got no conscience, that he’s a bad father, that there’s no way he doesn’t regret the abortions. Consider that MK believes abortion to be a psychopathic behavior. Consider that you all believe Dianne/a (can’t remember, and I know she likes her name to be spelled right. deepest apologies) is lying about not feeling any regret, that she’s hiding some deep wound, and that she’s killed her own child and you can’t imagine how she did that without regret.
Why the hell would Hal’s wife come on to the site, knowing all of this?
Less, maybe there is another side to the story. Do we know if Hal is the one that brow beat her into it? Is he here because of his own guilt? If she has no remorse, then why wouldn’t she want to let us have it? I could be way off base, but I doubt it. Hal has been speaking for the 2 of them. He might be a control freak. The possibilities are endless. Or maybe she just doesn’t like debates.
Less [not being funny] It is Diana.
Okay. I thought it ended with an a, but I wasn’t sure, and everyone butchers my name as well, so I realize how annoying it is.
I don’t think any of those scenarios are particularly likely, to be honest. They also went on and had other kids, so it isn’t likely that he brow beat her into it. He doesn’t believe there’s anything to be guilty for, so why should he feel guilty? I’ve been speaking for myself and my fiance, am a control freak as well? Furthermore, I don’t think Hal has ever said anything specific about his wife’s feelings on the matter. I believe he’s just spoken for himself thus far.
Jill, your polls should have one more choice: None of the above. When given a choice of A or B, a wise man often chooses C…
John,
The disabled worrying that they are “next” is, in no uncertain terms, a slippery slope argument, and not a particularly realistic one.
“Such an attitude seems far-fetched until you find out my sister-in-law decided to divorce my brother to avoid having kids with FA … nonsense, but such is the nature of fear.”
I have no idea what you mean by “far-fetched attitude.” We simply calculated some probabilities…. such as how likely it would for his kids to have it based on allele frequency in population (it was still very unlikely even though he was homologous). Readily armed with such stats, your sister-in-law was apparently a complete and undeserving fool, or actually had other issues with your brother.
“If she has no remorse, then why wouldn’t she want to let us have it?”
Just a thought, but maybe she doesn’t feel it’s worth her time or energy to defend herself against people who aren’t going to believe her anyway.
Hi Cam,
the ultimate control-freak is what she is …. hell, she’s even worse than you … heh, heh.
Part of the trouble with allele typing of outcomes … basic understanding has: DNA >>>> all traits. However DNA as a molecule is changed by radiation + nutrient input … so DNA is not itself impervious to alteration. On a trait level this ‘alteration’ may be a mutation … one quote from some researchers says that over 90% of all mutations could be overcome with a diet of sufficient vitamin B6 and zinc … [‘Zinc and Copper in Medicine’ eds Sarper and Kar
I think you’re conflating Friedrich’s ataxia with ataxia in general. One is wholly a recessive inherited disease while the other is mixed bag of things which affect the same ends ranging from mostly genetic to mostly developmental and environmental.
MAJOR QUESTION FOR JILL STANEK
Does any nation’s government, at any level have the option or leeway to legalize a crime including the crime of murder? Whether its murdering babies or murdering Jews, does any level of government (federal, state, local) have the right/option/leeway to legalize killing the innocent?
Follow-up question if you wish to respond
Once a government legalizes a crime such as murder what are the ramifications for that government and its authority?
Cam,
a wee bit of scepticism is in order for you towards the biology you cite. FA has defined genetic aberrations on the 6th chromosome, but it is a real stretch that anyone knows why this genetic mutation results in demyelinatiom … ie. ataxia. Early lab work found that we had an abnormal enzyme to digest omega-6 lipids of the EFA’s. Unlike ms where EFA lipid delineation is skewed, for us we have a deficit of EFA’s. So our situation very much mimes ms. However, in addition this low level of EFA’s undermines the integrity of all inner membrane walls of mitochondria – leading directly to energy loss.
In the last 5 years much work has been focused on frataxin – a mitochondrial protein that wastes toxic iron. It is theorized that enough iron does not get wasted (a deficit of frataxin) so, iron accumulates causing excess oxidative stress and early death of mitochondria >> cells.
All this is forecast as a single problematic component causes these problems. Says who? Perhaps a bunch of toxins working in tandem with a genetic ‘weakness’ is responsible for outcomes …. me thinks some humility in this age of genetic research is wanting!
FA mixed up with other ataxia’s, ????????????? There are numerous inherited ataxia’s – all so rare that even the total number is very small. However, their occurrence may in fact be much higher, because an individual’s symptoms have become so obvious that medical advice is sought. Are we not speaking of FA (and the vast majority of diseases with a genetic component) as a protypical iceberg where only 1/5 is above the waterline?
I suspect you know far more about A and FA than I do, so… whatever you say. My student told me his FA was totaly genetic recessive, perhaps he was wrong. We looked-up the allele frequency and crunched a few numbers together. I happen to know there are similar conditions affected by other disorders (e.g. MS), developmental impairments, toxins, etc… that’s about it.