New poll/old poll

New poll
Please be sure to vote on this week’s poll, in the right column. Then comment here on this post, not on the poll website. The question is:

On June 29, its legislature made New Hampshire the first state to repeal its law mandating that at least one parent be notified before his/her minor daughter aborts. Do you agree or disagree with this decision?

vote smart.jpg
Old poll
Last week, 49 of you answered this question:

If the Supreme Court overturns its 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, what will be the outcome?

The correct answer was…

(C) The states will be free to decide how/if to regulate abortion.

71.4% got that answer right! 12.2% answered (A) All abortions will be illegal; 9.2% answered (B) All abortions except to save the mother’s life will be illegal; and 8.2% answered (D) I don’t know.

154 thoughts on “New poll/old poll”

  1. I’m only here for a second this morning, but I have to say that this repeal is very dicouraging.
    It is beyond dangerous to allow a minor girl to undergo a surgical procedure with out the knowledge of at least one of her parents. If a minor doesn’t tell her parents about the abortion, she probably won’t tell them about complications that arise from the abortion.
    We don’t allow our 15 year olds to get their ears pierced without adult approval, but we allow them to invasive surgery. In what world does that make sense?
    At the very and absolute least some adult outside of the clinic staff should be notified that the girl is having an abortion. Not doing so puts the girl in danger.

  2. “At the very and absolute least some adult outside of the clinic staff should be notified that the girl is having an abortion. Not doing so puts the girl in danger.”
    How so?

  3. Cameron, how NOT so? Didn’t you just read about Edrica Goode? If her parents had been notified, they could have figured out what was causing her problems, and possibly saved her before she died!

  4. “Cameron, how NOT so? Didn’t you just read about Edrica Goode? If her parents had been notified, they could have figured out what was causing her problems, and possibly saved her before she died!”
    LMAO.
    OK… you’re deffinately not the sharpest tool in the shed Bethany.
    Edrica was 21 years old.
    Let’s assume that was a minor though, in which case her parents could have ordered that necessary exam that Edrica was staunchly opposed to and subsequently died for lack of any telling tests.
    Again, how is a girl put in danger for lack of parental notification?

  5. Cameron,
    If that minor goes home and develops symptoms such as bleeding or fever will she know she may be developing life threatening complications? Her parents certainly won’t, they may just think she has the flu and she would most likely be able to hide any unusual bleeding from her parents, unless of course its profuse. By the way Cameron, if she goes to a local emergency room or her family doctor and requires any kind of surgical intervention, her parents will have to be notified, something else that may discourage her from seeking medical help. This is not far-fetched, I have seen it happen. Her parents had to be told by the surgeon of his findings.
    Before we do any type of surgery on a minor, both the minor and his/her parents are advised by the surgeon of all risks and alternatives, and the parents and minor go home, decide and schedule for a later time. Upon discharge, the parents are advised, in writing, as to what symptoms to observe their minor child for and who to contact. A follow up appt. is always scheduled as well. At the abortion clinic this will certainly not be the case and even YOU have to admit this could well be putting a minor girl in danger. We don’t take these precautions in hospitals and outpatient surgery clinics because we need something to fill out time.
    You may not have read my post about the minor girl in San Francisco several years ago who developed chest pain after an abortion her parents knew nothing about. They took her to the family doctor, who knew nothing of the abortion since she didn’t mention it, and as such he misdiagnosed her. Chest pain in any post surgical patient is a red flag, in a teenage girl who you think has no surgical history it will unlikely generate much concern. It was a blood clot which migrated to her brain causing a stroke and serious disability. While her parents were not considered fit to be consulted about their daughter’s abortion, they were considered plenty fit enough to care for a disabled daughter.
    I think there are plenty of potential dangers to be concerned about.

  6. Cameron asks, Again, how is a girl put in danger for lack of parental notification? The possibilities are endless.

  7. *claps for Mary* !!! Mary, you just typed what I was thinking. Abortion is the ONLY medical procedure that a minor can sign for. However, if complications arise, parental notification is mandatory! You can’t get more backwards than that.

  8. Dawn Ravenell, 1971 – 1985
    Dawn Ravenell was only 13 years old when she found herself living her worst nightmare. Scared and pregnant, she decided she could not tell her parents, both Pentecostal ministers, about her baby. Dawn was so terrified of their possible reaction to this news that she decided to proceed with an abortion at Eastern Women’s Center in New York City on Jan. 24, 1985, without telling anyone.
    The procedure was disastrous from the start. Within the first five minutes of the abortion, Dawn began to vomit and choke. Allen Klein, the doctor who commuted from Philadelphia to perform the abortion, inserted a breathing tube into her windpipe and moved her into a recovery room. Left unattended, Dawn once again began to choke and suffered a massive heart attack. By the time a staff member checked on her condition, Dawn had already slipped into a fatal coma. She died at a nearby hospital three weeks later without regaining consciousness.
    Dawn’s parents were notified about their daughter’s pregnancy and tragic abortion when it was too late. She was already comatose. Trying to understand why her daughter did not choose to confide in her, Ruth Ravenell said, “I think that she felt that for me to see her as less than perfect would have been too much.” She never got to make peace with her little girl.
    Ruth and her husband successfully sued Klein and Eastern Women’s Center over Dawn’s death. In December 1990, a Manhattan jury awarded them $1.2 million in compensatory damages. Since then the Ravenells have become advocates for parental notification and consent laws, testifying before various state legislatures. Klein went on to work at a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic, where he was hailed as a hero.
    Source: New York Post, Dec. 11, 1990
    Associated Press, Dec. 11, 1990
    http://www.feministsforlife.org/weremember/dravenel.htm

  9. Heather4life,
    Exactly! Edrica was a legal adult and look what happened. I have seen abortion complications occur with adult women who finally showed up in the ER and/or surgery feverish and bleeding heavily. I remember a friend of mine being called for advise by her boyfriend’s adult sister who was bleeding profusely after her abortion. These are adult women! If they are frightened, uncertain what to do, and I’m sure trying to keep their abortions secret, what can we expect from minors?

  10. Per Cameron:
    “Again, how is a girl put in danger for lack of parental notification?”
    She can die.
    Cameron,
    Why do you so defiantly defend this issue on every level. You just argue for the sake of arguing.
    Any reasonable person can see how repealing this law can only create more situations like Erica Goode. The fact that she was 21 is a moot point.
    Since her family was unaware of her abortion they could not provide evidence to the hospital on what might be causing her demise. It wasn’t until her BF stepped forward and then it was too late.
    I agree Heather, more $ for the clinics.
    What other reason would make sense.
    They just want more girls to prey on.
    The lobbysists on this bill probably got paid some huge bonus for their efforts.

  11. Sandy, not to mention who is having sex with these minors? Don’t any of the adults at the abortion clinic see it fit to find out? Where are the social workers, nurses, and the doctor?? What role do they play. Is this 10 year old girl’s boyfriend in his 20’s, 30’s 40’s? Is she a victim of incest? Was she raped? I just don’t understand this.

  12. “If that minor goes home and develops symptoms such as bleeding or fever will she know she may be developing life threatening complications?”
    No more or less so than an adult, assuming she’s been informed of those risks and what to watch for over the next few days.
    “Her parents certainly won’t, they may just think she has the flu and she would most likely be able to hide any unusual bleeding from her parents, unless of course its profuse.”
    If her parents can’t tell when she needs medical attention…..
    “By the way Cameron, if she goes to a local emergency room or her family doctor and requires any kind of surgical intervention, her parents will have to be notified, something else that may discourage her from seeking medical help.”
    You seem to think that without parental notification the parents are not able to care for their child…. which is ridiculous. She can’t deny medical help if her parents order it.
    Also, availability of medications and medical procedures aren’t based soley on safety. They’re also based on efficacy.
    You can invoke all the exagerated minority reports and hypothetical alarmis that you want, but it only indicates that you are incapable of weighing choices reasonably. We’re not talking about 5 year olds dropping dead right and left here because they’re well meaning and caring parents hands were tied by some sort of institutionalized conspiracy. Open your fricken eyes.

  13. Sandy,
    An excellent point. I agree Cameron just enjoys being contrary. But we must give credit where credit is due. He does generate discussion which helps us bring important facts to light. I think some excellent info has come from everyone concerning the dangers of lack of parental consent laws and we should thank him for this.

  14. “On June 29, its legislature made New Hampshire the first state to repeal its law mandating that at least one parent be notified before his/her minor daughter aborts. Do you agree or disagree with this decision?”
    I disagree, …and living walking distance from the New Hampshire border, I can tell you that their legislature just fipped from Republican to Democrat in the last election (2006). The reason is because lefty moonbats (Cam and Diana types) from Massachusetts have been moving up to former red-state New Hampshire. They’ve now taken over that state and this stinking new law above is a result of that.

  15. Cameron,
    If the risk to minors is so miniscule as you seem to think, and minors so responsible, then why is parental consent required for every other type of medical procedure? Why are parents thoroughly informed of complications to observe for when a child is dischared?
    Cameron, like I said, you just enjoy being contrary, because your answers to the issues I raised, well, don’t answer the issues I raised.

  16. cameron, a minor who didn’t tell her parents about an abortion will most likely be afraid to tell them about the complications arising from the procedure. I don’t think you are so dense to not realize that this is indeed a possibility.
    Do you think that a 15 year old should be able to walk into a plastic surgeons and get liposuction without her parent’s knowledge? She’s just removing some “tissue”. Why not?
    Perhaps you think that minors having elective surgery is ok. In that case I have to question your grip on reality.

  17. “Cameron, sometimes it’s too late by the time the parents realize something is wrong. Open YOUR eyes.”
    Bethany, rarely is it too late that the parents won’t realize. However, common will be the parents attempting to thwart their teenage daughters’ attempts to get an abortion.
    Lauren,
    You’ve got it… despite how dense you all are: “cameron, a minor who didn’t tell her parents about an abortion will most likely be afraid to tell them about the complications arising from the procedure. I don’t think you are so dense to not realize that this is indeed a possibility.”
    What the hell, in your infinate lack of brain power, makes you think a young woman getting an illegal abortion or inducing is not going to be afraid to talk to her parents? I can’t beleive the incridibly myopic BS coming out of you all’s mouths. I like to think you’re not that dense, but damn…..
    You can give up the crappy cherade at any time. Ultimately, parent notification laws will kill more young women than a lack of them and you know it. You’re not fooling anyone. We know you don’t actually give a rats @ss about saving young girls. You want to save the pre-born babies, and your hope is notification = less abortions first and foremost. If that means a few more teenage mothers die trying to go about it in the privacy of bathrooms and bed rooms, you all are more than willing to except that colateral damage.

  18. Jill, like I said, when a wise man is given a choice of A or B, he often chooses C. Please answer two questions for me, and for your audience, since your poll was flawed and misleading in my opinion.
    The states can’t all decide instantaneously after Roe is overturned on abortion, so what will determine the legality of abortion in the time before the states decide?
    And last, what will determine the legality of abortion if they states don’t ever make a decision?

  19. I’m curious, where are all the statistics on women and young girls dying (pre-roe. v wade) from at home abortions? Why do we assume that young girls are going to do their own abortions as opposed to actually talking to their parents.
    In Camerons world, why do we have any laws at all?!? Why can’t 10 year old drive? If a kid can see over the dash and still reach the gas and brake pedal then why can’t they drive? Isn’t it their right? And if they can’t see over the dash, then shouldn’t car makers have to make cars that fit a 10 year old? Come on! This is all about rights here!!

  20. Cameron,
    Do you have any statistics on teenage deaths from the states where parental notification is required to back up your claim that parental notification causes more deaths??
    I don’t remember reading any new flashes on young women dying in the privacy of their own bedrooms and bathrooms while trying to self abort. Cuz I’m sure if they were happening, we would hear about it alllllll over the MSM.
    Great point Mary about other surgical procedures need parental notification.
    Like Lauren stated earlier, a minor can’t even get her ears pierced without parental consent.
    Cameron,
    If you are against parental notification for abortion, does this mean that you are against parental notification for all other surgical procedures done on minors?

  21. Cameron,
    So “parental notification laws will kill more young women than a lack of them and you know it”.
    Depending on the state, parental notification and consent laws have been on the books for years. Shouldn’t teenage girls already be dying by the hundreds from illegally induced abortion Cameron?

  22. claps for Mary* !!! Mary, you just typed what I was thinking. Abortion is the ONLY medical procedure that a minor can sign for. However, if complications arise, parental notification is mandatory! You can’t get more backwards than that.
    Not to mention that the unnotified parents are now responsible for any ensuing medical bills…

  23. You seem to think that without parental notification the parents are not able to care for their child…. which is ridiculous. She can’t deny medical help if her parents order it.
    Why is that Cameron? Why does she have to accept medical help if her parents order it?
    And if she has a fever and is bleeding and the doctor asks the parents if they have any idea why, what are they supposed to say if they don’t know.
    Their 13 year old daughter is lying there bleeding to death and the parents have no idea why…they KNOW SHE IS SICK…they just don’t know why.
    And your response is “If her parents can’t tell when she needs medical attention…..”
    I sincerely hope you are unique and not representative of the general population, because if I’m wrong, and you are the norm, Lord take me now!

  24. Cameron –
    “Let’s assume that was a minor though, in which case her parents could have ordered that necessary exam that Edrica was staunchly opposed to and subsequently died for lack of any telling tests.”
    Lets get this straight. The parents do not have to know about a surgical procedure however they CAN FORCE another medical procedure be done on their daughter? Reality check: minors cannot be forced by their parents for any medical procedure. A pre-teen to teenaged minor can refuse chemo treatment if she doesn’t want it. (a court case may happen, and a judge would have to force it) A minor is allowed to refuse to take medication if she doesn’t want it. A doctor cannot physically force anything on a pre-teen or teen minor. Parental notification is so the parents know to look for problems if they arise. This is why schools cannot give an asprin to a minor.
    “No more or less so than an adult, assuming she’s been informed of those risks and what to watch for over the next few days. ”
    Do you really think a minor can be responsible enough to know when there is a problem? Even adults have problems with this but somehow a minor is suppose to know? Do you have any clue at all about reality? What about the uneducated minors? What about the ones that can’t read but can sign their names? What about the ones who have learing disabilities that may hinder their understanding of what is being said to them? Severe AD/HD is an example, without meds I can’t tell you what was said to me 5 minutes ago, let alone a list of instructions. and don’t worry, someone who has a severe case will loose the paperwork. I guess these people just don’t matter in your reality.
    “You seem to think that without parental notification the parents are not able to care for their child…. which is ridiculous. She can’t deny medical help if her parents order it. ”
    Yes she can deny medical treatment. see above. Without parental notification the parents will not be able to care for their child. How can they care for her when they have no clue what has just happened to her?
    “You can invoke all the exagerated minority reports and hypothetical alarmis that you want, ”
    hmm…why can’t a school give a minor any form of medication? When I was in school non prescription meds could be given without parental consent. But not today. Do you know why? Why can’t a minor get a wart removed without parental consent? Get their teeth cleaned without parental consent? Some salons won’t even dye or perm a minors hair without consent. Do you really think these laws, rules and regulations just appeared for no reason? or did they happen because minors were getting injured?
    ” Ultimately, parent notification laws will kill more young women than a lack of them and you know it.”
    Actually history tells us the exact opposite. Which is why parents have to be notified on everything else. Because minors get killed or seriously injured without the parents knowing what is going on. Which is why my son cannot take his allergy meds at school without my consent. Which is why I have to sign a form stating the school can give him benedryl in case he is stung by a bee/insect. Which is why I have to know that my child is getting something pierced. Because of possible allergic reaction and/or infection. Parents have to know or they will not know what is going on in the case of an emergency. If a minor goes into any form of shock, how do you think she will be able to tell her parents they had an abortion? It would take paramedics and an ER team a long time to figure out what happened. She may not die, but she sure will go through alot of unnecessary tests and be in pain for an unnecessary amount of time. If parents do not want their daughter to have an abortion, that is their right. Just as it is my right not to sign any school waver about benedryl. Just as it is my right not to have my son go through any more therapy or tests for his autism. (something I wouldn’t do, but it is my legal right.)
    I have rights to my children. One of those rights is when my child gets medical treatments. There are court cases to prove that without parental notification children get injured. Don’t believe me? Then tell me why my child can’t even have benedryl without my permission if he is stung by a bee? because somewhere, someplace, someone was sued because it caused medical problems.

  25. All right, I have time, so I think I’ll give this a try. I’m kind of two minds about this issue.
    On one hand, I think it’s important for a minor to inform a parent when undergoing an invasive medical procedure such as abortion. Like you all have said, the parent would then know what to look for afterwards in case there are complications.
    On the other hand, I can’t help but think of extreme family situations where informing a minor’s parents would result in nasty consequences. I can easily imagine an extremist family beating, disowning, or even killing their daughter when finding out about something like this.
    I guess if a minor is afraid to tell a parent, they should at least tell an adult that they do trust. If she’s already of age, she should not be required to tell anyone.

  26. Stephanie –
    So what is your solution to the girl who would possibly get killed? beaten? abandoned? Have the abortionist do the abortion and then patt her on the ass and send her back into hell? Would that be your solution? I just want to know what is the answer in that extreme case. Going to a judge would be a good one. Not only could that judge have an investigation done, but could help her in more ways than just an abortion. That is why parental consent is a good thing. There are clauses that say a minor can go before a judge.
    If a child is afraid to tell, who do you suggest? The adult that knocked her up? That is what one Cincinnati Planned Parenthood did. The guy lied and said he was her step brother when in actuality he was the molester. They gave her the abortion, patted her on the ass, gave her BC pills and sent her back to get abused. If the parents were informed that girl would have gotten the help she needed. Reality is that she was afraid to tell, but the parents more than likely would have understood that she was molested and then did what was right for her. Not informing them led to further abuse and humilation. The Majority of parents are not cruel, heartless peices of poop. They are actually kind and caring. That children that are with the bad kind of parent need to get that information out so they can be helped. A judge is a good place to start for that minor.

  27. Stephanie,
    While your concerns are valid, there have always been extreme family situations and always will be. Abusive, dysfunctional families are as old as the human race. Still parents are held accountable for their children. The police officer who arrests a minor for a criminal offense isn’t going to evaluate a family situation before notifying parents. When schools call parents to notify them of bad grades or misconduct, the family situation is not evaluated first. I don’t assess the family situation of every minor I care for. The parents, parent, or legal guardians are responsible, period.
    If a minor truly has reason to fear for her safety, there are social service agencies she can contact. If a minor is concerned for her safety, then there is likely a history of abuse and intervention by a social service agency is long overdue. A school counselor or clergyman may also be of assistance. The CPC I volunteered for had clergyman on staff who volunteered their services for just such situations. Also, if you abort the girl and send her right back home to an abusive situation, what have you done for her?

  28. Heck, if we put Cameron in charge, a 10 year old will be allowed to legally drink at a bar.

  29. Ahhh… everyone’s pig-piling Steph now.
    *stretches-out elbows
    I love how defensive everyone’s gotten. It’s telling. Of course, it doesn’t take a genuious to know that the prolifers care far more about maybe preventing a few abortions than the actually well being of any teen mother.
    It’s also refreshing to see someone else who doesn’t think that a)every girl having an abortion without parents knowing is in grave risk of complications and death, b) is most certainly pregnant as a result of statutory rape, c) that both the young woman and the parents are not capable of determining when there’s a serious medical problem and d) that parents are somehow being rendered incapable of consenting for their dependent should an actually emergency/complication arrise.
    Have I missed any redherrings?
    Oh yes… Val seems to think we should tie up the teen mother with court hearings. As if it isn’t bad enough to put a troubling hold on the procedure, now the whole community knows. Cool! Is that compassionate?
    I’m also still waiting for someone to try to convince us that teens who’ve had abortions are at greater medical risk than teens who would take crazy risks to attempt to get around telling their parents. Seems like a no-brainer, but brains are certainly in short supply amongst this dim-witted lot.

  30. Did you not see where I said I think the minor should be required to at least tell an adult that they trust?
    Talk about selective reading.

  31. Cameron,
    No we are not “pig-piling” as you so eloquently put it, but rather presenting another side of the issue. I don’t see why disagreeing and presenting your argument as to why you disagree is being “defensive”. Honestly Cameron, at least we, and I mean Stephanie as well, have presented posts people can make sense of, and we can disagree civilly without resorting to ranting and personal insults, unlike you.
    Stephanie,
    About telling an adult they trust. That’s fine. But that adult does not have the legal right to sign for a medical procedure of any kind without legal guardianship. Will that adult be able to observe the minor and be responsible for any complications? If that minor ends up going into the hospital because of complications, her parents will have to be told since that responsible adult has absolutely no legal right to sign for or even know what is being done medically for the minor. That’s the point here Stephanie. There are no other circumstances where anyone but a parent or legal guardian can be responsible. When I worked the ER, those were the only people who could sign for a minor. Period. I work in surgery now and only parents or legal guardians can sign for and be responsible for the minor, not an adult the minor trusts. Wouldn’t you agree that if the situation at home is that abusive or threatening, that social services or a school counselor should step in?

  32. “Did you not see where I said I think the minor should be required to at least tell an adult that they trust?”
    Yes… you’re the “someone else” I was refering to.

  33. Stephanie, I don’t think anyone was ganging up on you. In fact, you raise a good point. Some girls might feel better confiding in an adult other than her parent[s] when it comes to pregnancy. Thank goodness for Social Services. It’s Cameron who always comes along, and he has to resort to his name calling antics. His debates aren’t even based on any facts.

  34. Stephanie and Heather4life,
    I second that. We can all present our viewpoints and discuss and disagree civilly. Differing viewpoints generate great discussion and that’s what makes this blog so blasted addicting! Do you have any idea the pile of pans in my kitchen that need washing and I can’t tear myself away from all you great folks on this blog!!

  35. Mary, How true. I am an addict! I enjoy debating here. I found Jill’s site through Operation Rescue. I thought I would post a few times and go on my way. I think I’ve been here for 5 months now!

  36. Cameron used to upset me to no end!! Not anymore. I guess I’m used to him. YIKES!

  37. Pro Choice blogs ought to operate this way. Every time I’ve ever posted a comment on a Choice blog, it was promptly deleted. If you don’t have people on both sides of the issue, it sure doesn’t leave much to talk about. What DO they talk about?

  38. If I had a pro-choice blog I would allow Lifers to post to their heart’s content. Of course I’m far too lazy to make one…school and all.

  39. Rae,
    I wouldn’t know where to start. Besides, I could never hope to compete with Jill.
    Heather4life,
    Me too!!

  40. I don’t mind going on “Pro-Life” blogs, though sometimes I get frustrated, it is very interesting to see the arguments for the other side and how the arguments are formulated and defended in different ways.
    But eh, that’s just me.

  41. Yes Heather, I agree.
    “What DO they talk about?”
    they all agree with each other, there are alot of leftist blogs out there like that, minimal or no disent allowed. Thats how Marxists operate.

  42. Cameron –
    “I love how defensive everyone’s gotten. ”
    “the prolifers care far more about maybe preventing a few abortions than the actually well being of any teen mother. ”
    First of all, as far as I can tell, you have resorted to name calling and belittling. Which tells me that you are the one on the defense.
    Second, if you read our posts you will see that we are discussing the well being of the teenager and not the medical procedure that you want hidden from the parents. What other medical procedure do you feel is safe for a minor to go through without parental consent? There is a case (I will search through the news archives to find this) where a minor got her nipple pierced. The parents didn’t know. Long story short, she was afraid to tell the parents what she did and had to have her entire breast removed because of severe infection. That is just a breast, can you imagine what would happen with an abortion? Can you imagine a minor loosing a uterus because of an infection that they were afraid to talk about? This is me being concerned for the teen. At this point, I don’t care what the medical procedure is, I think parents need to be notified. this is because I care about the teen.
    “a)every girl having an abortion without parents knowing is in grave risk of complications and death, ”
    yes, this is true. She is “at risk” just as anyone that has a medical procedure done. In this case she may be afraid to tell anyone of complications that arise because no one knows about it. This is why I/We disagree, because we worry about the health of the mother.
    “b) is most certainly pregnant as a result of statutory rape, ”
    Many teens that hide their pregnancy is because they are pregnant by a boy that the parents dislike, or pregnant by a man older than 18. Of course, this isn’t always the case. An example was given based on this knowledge, however. I do not see how that is saying “most certainly”. It is just a possibility, just as it is a possibility that a girl doesn’t want to tell their parents because they fear for their physical well-being which isn’t always the case.
    “c) that both the young woman and the parents are not capable of determining when there’s a serious medical problem”
    Once again – how can the parents know of the problem if they are not told? Also, if the girl is afraid to tell them about the pregnancy, do you really think they are going to say something if they suspect a problem after an abortion? If they go to the ER alone, the attending physician cannot treat without parental notification. This would be a fear factor in getting help.
    “d) that parents are somehow being rendered incapable of consenting for their dependent should an actually emergency/complication arrise. ”
    So now parents need to consent? But before the abortion they didn’t need to consent? They are not incapable of consenting they are unable to consent because of lack of knowledge. There is a HUGE difference. Maybe when you become a parent you just may understand this.
    “Val seems to think we should tie up the teen mother with court hearings. As if it isn’t bad enough to put a troubling hold on the procedure, now the whole community knows. Cool! Is that compassionate?”
    I want the teenager that is in an abusive relationship to get out of it. Tell me Cameron – what other way is there to remove a minor from an abusive household? I would think that someone who cares about the teen would not want her to stay in this abuse. Also, these court hearings are closed because the person is a minor so the community will not be told about it (that would be telling the parents; the very thing that the minor is afraid to tell them. Would defeat the purpose of the hearing, don’t ya think?) Not to mention that these hearings are rushed through because of the time constraint. If you can think of another way to legally remove a minor from an abusive household feel free to tell child protective services. I just don’t see how a secret abortion and sending her back to the abuse is being concerned for the minor? Maybe you can elaborate on that.
    “I’m also still waiting for someone to try to convince us that teens who’ve had abortions are at greater medical risk than teens who would take crazy risks to attempt to get around telling their parents. ”
    They are not at greater medical risk because of the medical procedure. They are at greater medical risk because they are more apt to keep quiet should complications arise. The teen whose mother/father/guardian knows what happened will be more open to discuss possible problems with them. The teen whose mother/father/guardian doesn’t know will more than likely keep quiet until the problem is serious. Most problems that can arise from these procedures will not cause anthing long term if medical attention is given right away. Waiting a couple days can cause a multitude of problems that are more difficult to correct.
    Any other questions I can answer? As you can see, no mention of dead baby. I don’t care what medical procedure is being done. The parents/guardians must know about it for the well being of the minor.

  43. @Valerie: Heck, I think if I had a blog it would stray from the issues pretty fast…and devolve into chit-chat. :D

  44. Rae –
    Then maybe a forum?
    I go to one that the subject is Newfoundland Dogs and there is an “open” section where we talk about anything. Pro-Life and Pro-Choice issues have come up a couple times too.
    Something to think about.
    ;-)

  45. This is an interesting discussion that we are having… and I find it hard to decide how I truly feel about it..
    Ultimately I think some adult or parent should know of the procedure… because I agree with what many pro-lifers have said. “if the girl didn’t tell her parents she was pregnant and had an abortion, she probably wouldn’t tell her parents of the complications she may be having” There are a lot of young girls that would be terrified to tell their mom and dad they were pregnant.
    However I also feel that if a parent or guardian knew of the pregnancy he/she might try to talk their daughter out if it or not allow it at all. (please spare the its the killing of an innocent baby.. its murder…. and i’ll spare you the its a fetus/blob of cells). Ultimately it should be the womens choice.
    Argh… this is a tough one!

  46. Guys,
    Cameron is in training. Yesterday, He and I were actually having a normal discussion. Then he called me a few names and I stopped replying.
    I figure if we all do that it shouldn’t take him more than a year or two to put two and two together and realized that when he behaves, we talk. When he calls names, we ignore.
    Most people would have figured this out much sooner, but we must make allowances for Cam.
    Somethin about his ears smokin’ if he uses too many gray cells at the same time…
    It’s a shame too, because when he’s not trying to impress us with his Rasquelesse use of 4 syllable words (most of which he can’t spell), he actually makes some good arguments.
    Oh well, another year and a half or so, and he should get it!

  47. Well, hello, Will. Welcome back. Will, at 12 o’clock high, said:
    “Jill, like I said, when a wise man is given a choice of A or B, he often chooses C. Please answer two questions for me, and for your audience, since your poll was flawed and misleading in my opinion.”
    Will, I reported the repeal of the NH parental notice law and asked how people felt about it. Explain exactly how that was “flawed and misleading.”
    Will also said, “The states can’t all decide instantaneously after Roe is overturned on abortion, so what will determine the legality of abortion in the time before the states decide?”
    and
    “And last, what will determine the legality of abortion if they states don’t ever make a decision?”
    I know you didn’t mean to do this, Will, but you’ve pointed out one great reason for incremental state laws.
    Aside from that, every state had a law one way or another before Roe. Some states have overturned those laws. Some have reiterated them. For those that haven’t done anything one way or another, the laws they had pre-Roe will be there post-Roe. Roe will be simply erased, unless the Supremes add a caveat.

  48. JM –
    “However I also feel that if a parent or guardian knew of the pregnancy he/she might try to talk their daughter out if it or not allow it at all. ”
    And some parents may force their daughter to have an abortion when she doesn’t want it. (I believe it was midnite who had a friend this happened to.) But I still think parents need to be informed.
    This isn’t a matter of a woman having a choice. This is a matter of a medical procedure being done on a girl without knowledge of the people that will HAVE to be present if complications arise. Havine just an “adult” present sounds good, but that “adult” cannot help her if she has to go to the ER. This is putting her life/health at risk.
    This isn’t rocket science. There is a reason why parents have to be informed if an asprin is given to their child at school. Because to do otherwise could put that child’s life/health at risk. This is just rediculous that anyone would think a surgical procedure is okay when parents don’t know about it. I would say this if people were trying to say a minor could have a tatoo without knowledge of parents. Problems could arise and the parents wouldn’t be in a position to properly help their child. This has nothing to do with the murder of a baby/destruction of a fetus aka blob of tissue; this has everything to do with the safety of a minor.

  49. What if the girl begins to develop psychological problems after the abortion? What if she becomes depressed? Who can she turn to?

  50. MK you are so funny, and you’re right!
    “Rasquelesse use of 4 syllable words (most of which he can’t spell),”
    LOL!

  51. jasper, just like the Mother Theresa blog. I just couldn’t believe my eyes when I read the awful things they were saying about her. They all agreed with each other. It was so vile, I thought I would puke! One person wrote, “I hated her.” “May that wretched old hag rot in hell” Another wrote “I hate babies.” “Dead or alive, who cares?” Some of the filth is too awful to even repeat. A woman who devoted her life to the poor, sick, and destitute.

  52. Val,
    “First of all, as far as I can tell, you have resorted to name calling and belittling. Which tells me that you are the one on the defense.”
    You say tomato….. I always call it like I see it. Sorry, there’s no nice way to tell you all how ignorant or obtuse you are. MK

  53. Cameron, I see lots of words in that post, but nothing of substance. Just a lot of hot air, arrogant opinions, and insults. Try again.

  54. In every state in the US, the courts have consistently held for the right of a doctor to treat a minor without consent from parents when it is medically necessary.
    So are you saying that abortion is always necessary when a teenager is pregnant?

  55. How about if she knows and is scared to death of being pregnant and a mother, and knows her parents will insist on it given that their obtuse prolife fools more concerned about a fetus than their own daughter? Perhaps you think such authoritarian parenting is rare?
    Funny how you make an exception, spun the way you like it, the rule when you accuse others of doing the same.

  56. Cameron, are you going to answer Mary’s question?
    “So “parental notification laws will kill more young women than a lack of them and you know it”.
    Depending on the state, parental notification and consent laws have been on the books for years. Shouldn’t teenage girls already be dying by the hundreds from illegally induced abortion Cameron?”

  57. Good points, Bethany!
    Cameron, you never answered my question. Should a minor be able to have liposuction without her parent’s knowledge? Why not? It’s just removing some tissue.

  58. I mean, you know, those horrible, authoritarian parents who ONLY care about fetuses, and definitely don’t care about their daughter one iota…if their daughter does come to them with complications (after keeping it quiet because she was too afraid to tell them because they would abuse her or force her to do something that could medically harm her), are they supposed to step up and all of a sudden be the heroes and make sure that she is safe and sound, despite the fact that she had an abortion behind their back? I mean, either they care about their daughter or they don’t, Cameron, you can’t have it both ways.

  59. Cameron –
    “You’re desperately dredging-up any and every rare case in which something went wrong.”
    Yet somehow anytime there is talk of restricting abortion you come up with rape/incest and health of the mother. Combined, those only make up 8% of all abortions in the US. This info is from Gutmatcher institute. So, its okay for you to dredge up the rare cases to prove a point but Pro-lifer’s can’t? Get a grip.
    “As far as the procedure goes, I suspect you wouldn’t acknowledge the reality of it; there’s a low risk regardless of age or whether parents may or may not be informed; ”
    I know the reality of the procedure. I had a D&C with my first miscarrage. This is the same procedure used in the majority of 1st trimester abortions. These make up almost 90% of abortions. There is risk with this procedure. The list I got of what to look for was long and detailed. I ended up with a small infection which was taken care of by medications. If I didn’t understand what was on the list, that infection would have gotten worse because I honestly didn’t think it was a problem. I was 33 at the time, I have a medical background, have had menstrual problems so I am used to talking to Dr’s about this – I think I have a bit more inforation on this than you do. A D&C is a high risk procedure. I was not allowed to be released until my husband was given all the information on what to look for because of these risks. Anyone who has had to have one from a miscarriage will tell you that this is what we are told. Also, many women who have had one because of an abortion will tell you that this is what they were told as long as they went to a reputable doctor. You are the one who doesn’t understand the reality of this procedure.
    “Who cares about the procedures? We’re talking about piously judgmental parents who care more about moral authority than what might be best for their kid.”
    Who are you to tell a parent what is best for their kids? Let me get this straight: Pro-Choice wants people to stay out of their lives and out of their families; but for some reason Pro-Choice feel that they can intrude on my life and my family. You can’t have it both ways. I know what is best for my daughter, you do not. If she were raped and ended up pregnant, I would do what is best for her. If that meant an abortion, then I would support that. If she gets pregnant by a stupid mistake at a young age then I will discuss, in detail, with the doctor the pro’s and con’s of the situation. Just because I am Pro-Life doesn’t mean that I cannot help my daughter make a decision. You really need to stop your discriminatory attitude and realize that parents actually do know what is best for their children and You do not.
    “yes… yet another desperate anecdote, even more desperate for lack of any relevance to abortion procedure.”
    Does the name Gerri Santoro mean anything to you? My example was showing that a minor is afraid to talk to parents about something as simple as a body peircing. Do you really think that with something as complex as abortion they would be more willing to talk to their parents?
    “that kids may actually do something incredibly risky to keep such a thing secret from their parents, or that the those doing this at higher risk of complications aren’t any more likely to tell their parents what’s going on? ”
    Thanks. You just proved my point.
    “No it’s not. We disagree because you care more about saving fetuses even though it’s clearly going to result in more problems for pregnant teens.”
    An abortion is best for ALL pregnant teens? No matter what decision is made, the teen will go through much termoil. Wouldn’t it be better to have parents who can support and comfort that teen? Instead, you feel that it is best to tell the teen to lie to their parents and keep secrets. This makes the situation worse.
    “First and foremost… teens hide their pregnancy from their parents because they think their parents would kill them simply for being pregnant… regardless of how they got pregnant or with whom. Get a clue.”
    I have a clue. I was raised strict Catholic as most of my friends were raised. I know plenty of girls from my Catholic school that told their parents they were pregnant. Every one of those parents supported and helped their daughter. The minor thinks their parents will kill them, when in reality their parents will be disappointed in them but will help them through whatever decision is made.
    “I don’t see anyone of the prolife dorks here talking about any normal scenario.”
    Rape and incest is 1% of abortions. Health/life of mother or severe deformity of fetus is 7% of all abortions. These cases are not the normal scenario, yet it is the first statement out of every pro-choicers mouth. Why is it that we talk about that 8%? Because every subject matter is imporant when discussing abortion.
    “How about if she knows and is scared to death of being pregnant and a mother, and knows her parents will insist on it given that their obtuse prolife fools more concerned about a fetus than their own daughter? Perhaps you think such authoritarian parenting is rare?”
    I do believe that form of parenting is rare. I am a parent. My friends are parents. My sister’s are parents. I know many parents who know what is best for their daughter. You do not. If this means you disagree with their decision, you don’t have a say in the matter. Just as I don’t have a say in a parent who forces their daughter to have an abortion even if she doesn’t want to. But I can have a say in the government telling my daughter that it is fine to lie, withhold important information, sneak around and possibly hurt themselves because I might do what YOU think is the wrong decision.
    “Nothings keeping the kid from telling her parents something’s wrong, should it go wrong. I can understand that you have so little faith in parent’s abilities to recognize that their kid is sick or in pain, because it’s convenient for you to do so regardless of reality, but what do you think this lack of law is… some sort of gag order? ”
    Nothing is keeping her from Not telling either. Do you have any idea how many teens are doing drugs and their parents don’t know it? All the parents know is there is something wrong, but without the teen talking to them they cannot help unless they catch them in the act of doing drugs or when it is too late to help. Do you have any idea how many teens are having sex without the parents knowledge? How many teens say they are staying the night at a friends house and then party all night instead? You are the one who isn’t living in reality. Parents are not incapable of telling when there is something wrong, but they are incapable of knowing what that is unless they are told, or see it for themselves. Parents do not have a magic wand or crystal ball that tells them what is going on with their teen.
    “In every state in the US, the courts have consistently held for the right of a doctor to treat a minor without consent from parents when it is medically necessary. ”
    1st you don’t want the teen to go to court, now you want to turn to the courts for help? How many teens do you think knows about these court cases? Do you really think they are going to say to themselves: “a non-custodial adult can take me to the ER because there are court cases that say I don’t need parents consent if it is medically necessary. And I know that all my bleeding will make it medically necessary.” or do you think they will say to themselves: “I cannot get help at the ER because I don’t want my parents to know.” You need to stop thinking like an adult and realize that teens do not know everything that you do.
    “Your hope is that they will talk the kid out of the abortion, and nothing more. ”
    Yes, I would like that. But I am not the girls parent. I beleive that it is the parents who can make the best decision for their daughter, or help her make the best decision. YOU do not know my daughter nor my relationship with her. YOU do not know what is best for my daughter. YOU do not have the right to tell my daughter it would be in her best interest to lie to me. YOU do not know her situation. I would have a greater understanding of what would be best for her because I am her parent and live with her 24/7.
    “What a crock of BS. Many parents, like you, would prevent the abortion no matter the best interest of your kid.”
    As a parent, this is my right. YOU don’t have to like it, but it is the truth. Unless I try to prevent medical help when my child is dying, YOU and the government do not have any idea what would be best for my daughter. I have the right to withhould vaccines. I have the right to withhold Physical Therapy. I have the right to withhold certain food products such as meats. You may not like my decisions, but you do not have a say in the matter unless my child is being abused or is going to die without medical help.
    Also, your ability to cut and paste my posts to make me sound as if I am saying something I am not is quite amusing. Just shows how easy it is for you to misrepresent the truth and show everyone that you would make a really good politician or abulance chasing lawyer.

  60. give it to em valerie!!!
    I second all that!
    that’s five more kids that YOU don’t know anything about! YOU don’t know what’s best for them! I DO!!!!!
    ROFLMAO!!!!!

  61. give it to em valerie!!!
    I second all that!
    that’s five more kids that YOU (Cam-moron)don’t know anything about! YOU (Cam-moron) don’t know what’s best for them! I DO!!!!!
    ROFLMAO!!!!!

  62. All,
    I did a little poking around in the literature… you know, that stuff people look at to actually assess what we do or don

  63. Just another thought… does anyone here actually have to balls to fess-up that they are indeed more interested in stopping abortions than helping teen mothers??

  64. Many thoughts on this Cameron.
    First, many of your statisitcs are amazing. Considering most of the states do not report that kind of information to the government. California, the state that you found most of your documation from, doesn’t report any numbers regarding abortion to any government agency. Along with two other states that do not report anything. You can go to the CDC and learn what states report what kind of information, if any. Let’s break this down shall we?
    “In all studies, such laws reduced teens using these services but did not reduce number of teens having sex.”
    Exactly how do they know how many teens are having sex? Did they follow the teens around watching them? Teen polls are regarded as being inconsistent because many teens do not tell the whole truth regarding this subject. Gutmatcher Institute even wrote a paper on that.
    “Further cohort studies found a significant increase in the number of 17 year olds delaying abortion until 2nd or 3rd trimester, at which point they would be 18.”
    2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are very rare, very pricey and most abortionist do not perform them. Exactly how are these 18 year olds getting the money not only for the procedure, but for the transportation to a doctor who will do them? Dr. Tiller charges over $5,000 for his late term abortions. How many 18 year olds do you know have this kind of money without the parents giving it to them?
    “About of those that feared violence, 1/3 had an already established history of violence with one or more parents. ”
    If there is established violence then there is already a socail worker that is involved in the family. If the child fears violence and has already been found to be involved in violence then they know how to talk to a socail worker, judge and/or lawyer. This is where the “judge” clause comes into affect with the parental notification laws. You know, when the child fears for their physical wellbeing and a judge can override the parents consenting.
    “It looks like 40-50% of teen mothers did/would go to a neighboring state to get the abortion. 30-40% did/would go ahead and have the baby. 10-20% said they did/would have to leave their homes/families. 15-25% said they did/would go about inducing/aborting illegally.”
    Many states do not report who is an out of state patient and who isn’t. and the percentages are faulty. Any Statistician will tell you that. People who say they “would” do something VS someone who “did” do something cannot be combined together. This is because the “would” is not based on facts but on emotions.
    “For those of you thinking teen mothers NEED parents to make such decisions….Weithorn & Campbell (ChildDev. 1982;53:1589- 1598) found that 14 year old girls were just as capable as the average adult at making high quality informed consent related decisions. Two other studies produced similar though unrelated findings regarding adolescents weighing risks as well as adults. ”
    Recent documentations and medical studies have proved that the brain of a teenager is not fully developed. This has been all over the news for a couple years now. If the brain is not fully developed how is it possible that the person can make these rational decisions?
    “For those of you thinking parents would somehow suddenly start to give a @#$%….
    A comparison between WI and MN found that parents were not anymore involved in their children�s abortion decisions as a result of notification law. ”
    How would anyone know this? Do the abortion clinics have poll takers asking parents of minors these questions?
    Why do you think Parents are horrible and evil? Parents do give a *&&*. Just because you don’t agree with some of them, doesn’t mean they are wrong in how they raise their children.
    Now – lets take a look at the reference used in the report you posted.
    Darroch J, Singh S. Why is Teenage Pregnancy Declining? The Roles of Abstinence, Sexual Activity, and Contraceptive Use. Occasional Report No. 1, New York, NY.The Alan Guttmacher Institute; 1999.
    The Alan Guttmacher Institute. U.S. Teen Pregnancy Statistics: Overall Trends, Trends by Race and Ethnicity and State by State Information. New York, NY
    Pregnancies and Pregnancy Consequences Averted by the Use of Contraceptives in U.S. and California Teens. University of California, San Francisco,Paper commissioned by The California Wellness Foundation. June, 1996
    UCLA Center for Health Policy Research. California Health Interview Survey [online]. 2001.
    The Alan Guttmacher Institute. Parental Involvement in Minors� Abortions, State Policiesin Brief, August 1, 2005.
    Ehrlich S. Grounded in the reality of their lives: Listening to teens who make theabortion decision without involving their parents. Berkeley Womens Law Journal, 2003;18: 61-180
    I also saw less than 10 states represented in the findings. The references that state US numbers are for basic statistic and not on actual problem/benefits of the parental notification law.
    All this and I haven’t mentioned that the website you found your information on is from the “Asian Communties for Reproductive Justice”. Why don’t you try to find some studies that don’t have an agenda?
    and to answer your last question. I don’t need balls. I have Overies. and I have the Overies to tell you that I care about my daughter and the government and Pro-Choice organizations only care about their statistics and wallet. My daughter is more than a number to me. She is my life. I will fight to the death anyone who tries to harm her. I care for my daughter and for other parents daughters. It is the parents right to know when a medial procedure is happening to their child. and you cannot tell my daughter to lie to me because you think you know what is best when you don’t even know her.
    As I have stated before, some parents force their children to keep the baby. Some force for adoption. Some force abortion. This is their right as a parent. I don’t give a rats *& what the decision is at this point. I do give a rats (** that I am a parent and I have rights on how to raise my child. This is not a communistic country. I have freedom of worship which means I can raise my child to have religious values. I have freedom of Speech which means I can tell the government to shove it when they think telling my daughter to lie to me is a good thing. These are 2 basic freedoms that are the foundation of America. NO ONE can take that away from me!

  65. This poll brings me back to one of the two big questions I have for you Jill Stanek.
    I want to know your answer to this question.
    Does ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT have the option or leeway to legalize ANY crime including the crime of murder?
    Also, if you think you can respond forthrightly, do you agree with Scalia when he said that it would be just as wrong for the Supreme Court to make a federal law the opposite of Roe v Wade (banning all abortion across the nation) as it was to make Roe v Wade?

  66. Illinois law defines a neglected minor, in part, as “any minor under the age of 14 years whose parent or other person responsible for the minor’s welfare leaves the minor without supervision for an unreasonable period of time without regard for the mental or physical health, safety or welfare of that minor.”
    Juvenile Court Act, 705 ILCS 405/2-3(1)(d)

    Isn’t is interesting that the state of Illinois doesn’t think a child of 14 can’t be left alone for an unreasonable amount of time but also believes that the same child is capable of having sexual relations and obtaining an abortion “all by herself”?
    http://www.nccic.org/poptopics/homealone.html

  67. MK –
    What I find amazing is that a person under the age of 18 cannot be forced to be held responsible for any contract that they sign. This is because they are not old enough to know what is truly going on and the law protects them against any form of collection. Also, no bad information can be placed on their credit report because they were not old enough.
    Think about that will ya? The teen has to sign a waver before the abortion right? All doctors make patients sign wavers now a days. ALL of them have a section for parents to sign if the patient is under the age of 18. This is because the person is too young to sign into a legal binding contract.
    How is it that the abortionist can have a minor sign one of those wavers and it be legal? Why do abortionist get special leeway on these things when no other doctor has that? According to law, the abortionist should be held liable for knowingly and willingly entering into a contract with a minor. In some states this is a misdemeanor.
    Just something to think about.

  68. Zeke asked, “This poll brings me back to one of the two big questions I have for you Jill Stanek. I want to know your answer to this question. Does ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT have the option or leeway to legalize ANY crime including the crime of murder?
    Zeke, in the case of abortion, the U.S. government did just that, whether or not we think it was right.
    Zeke also asked, “Also, if you think you can respond forthrightly, do you agree with Scalia when he said that it would be just as wrong for the Supreme Court to make a federal law the opposite of Roe v Wade (banning all abortion across the nation) as it was to make Roe v Wade?”
    I think I can respond forthrightly. The courts cannot make laws.

  69. Val,
    HAH! Where’s a lawyer when you need one. We might have a case on both counts if a lawyer was savvy enough to make a case…

  70. Valerie,
    An excellent and well researched post. Also, if 14 years olds are truly as capable as adults to make medical decisions, then why must parents consent for any medical procedure at all from the age of 14 years and up? If insurance or medicaid would cover a gastric bypass or some kind of corrective cosmetic procedure for a 15 year old, why should parental consent be necessary?
    Also, concerning minors recognizing serious complications. One thing I have observed over many years in the medical area is that the human mind is a very strange and powerful thing. I have seen grown women ready to deliver who were in total denial of pregnancy, even after a baby was born. I have seen mature adults brush off symptoms that I would have considered serious. I have seen people totally deny their own or a love one’s illness. How often have we ourselves been sick and just brushed it off or denied or downplayed symptoms that could be very serious? In fact, isn’t our first reaction to any disturbing symptom an effort to trivialize it or think “it must be something else”? “I’ve just been working too hard, no wonder I’m so exhausted all the time”, or “There’s a lump in my breast but I’m sure its just a cyst”.
    I’ve seen women in denial over miscarriages, holding out for any sign of hope.
    Should we be surprised then that a minor who has just had an abortion behind a parent’s back would downplay or ignore serious symptoms? That she would just try to rationalize that there is no cause for concern? That she just may not see such symptoms as chest pain, a low grade fever or some excess bleeding as any cause for concern? Please refer to my post of 7/2 9:52am for examples of grown women this has happened to.
    Also if parents are unaware of an abortion, they may also see no reason to be concerned about these symptoms. Young girls will often have heavy and excessive periods. People get fevers, they don’t feel well, and who has never had chest pain? A parent who has been advised of the symptoms to observe for post surgically will likely react in an entirely different manner when their child displays symptoms such as these, and seek medical attention.

  71. Val,
    “Considering most of the states do not report that kind of information to the government.”
    It

  72. ***sound of buzzer***
    Nice ad hominem… and you guys always act so surprised and scream foul when I point out how stupid you are.
    try again…

  73. Cameron,
    If teens ages 14 and older are so capable of making sound medical decisions, then why is parental or guardian consent needed for all other medical procedures, excluding emergencies?
    Concerning abuse in the family. If a minor has reason to fear for his/her physical safety, wouldn’t you agree that social services should be involved? A pregnant minor can contact a social service agency, she can also confidentially speak to a school counselor and get assistance. What good does it do the minor to abort her and send her back to the abusive, dysfuntional home? From my experience I can tell you that you’ll likely see her pregnant again and again, until she has a baby and starts the cycle of dysfunction and abuse all over again. Aborting a girl behind her parents back will do nothing to stop abuse.
    You also have to factor in human nature. Let’s face it, who among us won’t take an easy out? No matter how good the home, a minor girl is going to be frightened, overwhelmed, an easy mark for peer pressure, and terrified to tell her parents. Someone offers her what looks like an easy out, an abortion without her parents knowledge, then why not? She may sincerely believe she is sparing her parents, or be told this, when in fact it would hurt them more that she did not turn to them for help. I’m sure any number of kids in trouble in school or with the police only wish they had such options. I wonder, should minors have the option of not having their parents notified if they are in trouble with the police or have bad grades at school? Certainly they are mature enough to make these decisions. If a neighborhood child vandalized your home Cameron, would you not notify the parents?
    No Cameron, like the rest of the human race, all of us parents are not wonderful and perfect. No one promised us perfect children and perpetual bliss and a teen pregnancy is only one of the many kinds of crises we parents can and do face all the time. We deal with such situations as mental illness, mental and physical disablity, crippling and terminal illnesses, and children involved in criminal activity, to name only a few. Somehow only on the issue of teen pregnancy do we suddenly turn into these heartless, incapacitated ogres who are incapable and irresponsible when it comes to managing our pregnant teen daughters, something parents were viewed as very capable of managing for generations prior to now.

  74. Jill Stanek said, “Will, I reported the repeal of the NH parental notice law and asked how people felt about it. Explain exactly how that was “flawed and misleading.”
    My apologies. I meant the “old poll” mentioned in this particular blog, not the “new one.” The reason your other poll was flawed and misleading is because when Roe is overturned, any state law on the books will determine the law on abortion for each particular state. No state will be obligated to decide on abortion.
    Jill Stanek said, “I know you didn’t mean to do this, Will, but you’ve pointed out one great reason for incremental state laws.”
    What’s that great reason? I don’t understand your point.
    Jill Stanek said, “Aside from that, every state had a law one way or another before Roe. Some states have overturned those laws. Some have reiterated them. For those that haven’t done anything one way or another, the laws they had pre-Roe will be there post-Roe. Roe will be simply erased, unless the Supremes add a caveat.”
    Where can I and your audience go to look up all these laws for every state pre-Roe? How did you learn about them? How about Indiana? Will this law: Indiana Code Title 16, Section 34, Chapter 2. Requirements for Performance of Abortion… 1. (a) Abortion shall in all instances be a criminal act, except… if …the woman submitting to the abortion has filed her consent…” keep abortion legal in Indiana after Roe?

  75. Cameron,
    You are so cute when you get angry. I have brought up many good points and all you can do is tell me how stupid I am without even responding to what I have said. Instead you pull the lawyer’s trick of picking and choosing what you can spin to your own delusional outcome. However, I will keep playing, because this is getting entertaining to see the lengths you will go to say that parents do not have any rights to their children.
    “These were conducted by various research entities, mostly universities, not state governments. The researchers treated each study with respect to the state, because laws vary at state level…. and jurisdiction would not allow for state officials to go to another for between state studies.”
    This means that they called only the places they wanted to in order to get the results they wanted. I also saw no verification of records of these conversations or questionairs or survey’s to any places. Getting information this way is called a non-scientific poll. If you notice, they even admitted in there references that one of their “statistics” is from an ONLINE survey. Online surey’s are not considered accurate which is why Legitamite organizatons do not use them.
    “You were supposed to use this link to find whatever study you want to scrutinize…. but it looks like you

  76. Mary,
    “If teens ages 14 and older are so capable of making sound medical decisions, then why is parental or guardian consent needed for all other medical procedures, excluding emergencies?”
    That

  77. Haha you did it, Valerie, you silenced him. He can’t respond and he admits it. Good job.
    Cameron, just a quick question, for fun…do you know what your name means?

  78. Bethany… cheerleading aside,
    My name is gailic/scottish for crooked/bent nose. It was originally a prestigious nick name given to a warior who had his nose broken in battle. It became somewhat noble with time to such an extent that it became a clan name/sir name complete with tartan and coat of arms.
    I are venerated scrappy thug.

  79. I understand HIPPA and all, but you wouldn’t think that it would apply to a minor. If I worked in an abortion clinic, [what a horrid thought] the FIRST thing I would ask the 12 year old is “Who are you having sex with???!!!!!” This is some sick $hit! Don’t the abortion clinic nurses, counselors, or doctors ever ask? Who is impregnating these children? Did her abuser bring her to the clinic? “Who brought you here?” How often is law enforcement brought in to these matters? Do abortion clinics ever contact social services? I’d love to see some statistics on this!

  80. Something to think about; You aren’t really granting the confidentiality to the minor. You are granting that to her sexual abuser!

  81. Last time I checked, HIPAA didn’t stand for Helping Incest Perpetrators Assault Adolescents.

  82. I’m quite fond of HIPAA to be honest. It prevents my doctors and shrinks from telling my parents what I say, and I like that. Of course now that I am 18 my parents definitely don’t hear what I say or heck, they don’t even know that I go see a psychologist or doctor. The psychologist I go to now occasionally works with my dad at 3M as an occupational therapist or something and he had to ask my permission because of HIPAA to let my dad know I had finally made an appointment to go see him (my dad had been nagging me to make an appointment for like…3 months).
    It’s nice in some ways I think…it guarantees privacy, but I do see it’s faults with not being able to turn over information in the case of adolescents/children.

  83. Cameron,
    Would you please answer my questions.
    If minors 14 years and older are as capable of making as sound medical decisions as are adults, then why is parental or guardian consent needed for all other medical procedures except emergencies?
    Concerning abuse. The abortion clinic must report the abuse? I thought the minor could have an abortion without parental consent or knowledge so abusive parents wouldn’t find out about the pregnancy. Which is it Cameron?
    You presume wrong, easy does not equal bad and I don’t understand why you would presume that.
    You also failed to answer my question concerning a neighborhood minor child vandalizing your home. Would you or would you not inform the parents? Were you to call the police, they would inform the parents. So what do you do?

  84. Hi Mary and Rae. Happy 4th! Mary, I have a question for you. I’ll wait for you to return.

  85. Hi Heather4life,
    Hapy 4th to you and Rae also. I’ve returned. What can I do for you?
    Rae,
    You’re right about HIPPA. While it is rigid, I believe people talked a little too freely in the past, I know I was guilty, and the rules really make people much more conciencious about privacy and confidentiality. I know people who have been fired. If its my confidentiality that’s at stake, I want to know the rules are rigid and I’m sure every patient feels exactly the same.

  86. Mary, you have mentioned that you have many years of hospital experience. Some people have stated over and over again [SOMG} that abortion cannot cause damage to a woman’s cervix, uterus, etc. Why do gynecologists always ask you if you have ever had an abortion on your medical info. sheet? What would it matter?

  87. Mary,I know a woman who has had 7 abortions. She told me that she had to have a hysterectomy 2 years ago because of continuous uterine bleeding. She also told me that her MD told her that her condition was due to her excessive amount of abortions. SOMG says that this couldn’t possibly be true. That’s why I was asking.

  88. Heather4life,
    I would guess that they ask this as just part of your gynecological history, like they would question your menstrual history, the number of pregnancies, miscarriages, live births, etc.
    I do know of a case where we were putting a stitch in a pregnant woman’s cervix to keep it closed long enough to carry her pregnancy as long as possible. According to her history, this woman had one abortion at the age of 15 and had had several miscarriages since. She was unable to carry to term. She was pregnant by a member of our city’s national football team, who have quite a following of groupies in our area and have fertilized several of the local ladies.
    I was surprised to hear who had impregnanted this young lady since I was certain he was the first member of his family to walk upright. Anyway, the pro-choice OB/GYN performing the procedure was convinced her cervical incompetence was caused by her abortion. She did deliver the baby early, he was only 3 lbs., but fortunately he survived. The OB wasn’t so sure she could carry another pregnancy even that far and this would likely be her only child.

  89. Heather4life,
    I think we posted at the same time. If this woman’s MD thinks the abortions caused her uterine bleeding I would have to agree with him. Does SOMG have any kind of medical training or degree that he can speak with such authority on this subject?

  90. Mary, thank you so much for your reply. Sharon Osbourne {wife of Ozzy] said that she had the same problem. Sharon found herself pregnant @ age 17. She said that her mother told her to have an abortion. Sharon feels regret and remorse. She has said ” It was the most awful thing I have ever experienced.” She added ” I howled in pain through the entire procedure.” She also had to have a stitch put into her cervix while she was pregnant. She attributes this to her past abortion.

  91. SOMG claims to know a lot. He has also stated that childbirth is harder on a woman’s cervix than is abortion. However, he could never provide any proof.

  92. On Sharon Osbourne post. I meant that she had to have a stitch put in to carry one of the children she has now to full term.

  93. Heather4life,
    You’re entirely welcome. How interesting about Sharon Osbourne. I read that the late actress Judy Garland, who had a very tragic life, was also pressured into aborting her first pregnancy, a baby she apparently wanted, by her mother and husband. When she was either pregnant with or had already had Liza Minnelli, she made a comment about finally having “permission” to have a baby. You could certainly sense the resentment and anger in her comment.

  94. Heather4life,
    Childbirth is hard on the cervix? How in heaven’s name do women have large numbers of children? I mean like families of 10 plus children?

  95. Mary, welcome to the twisted world of SOMG. He and I have been debating on the Paul Morrison post. You ought to see what he’s written there. At least he has refrained from making death threats tonight.

  96. “I read that the late actress Judy Garland, who had a very tragic life, was also pressured into aborting her first pregnancy”
    I didn’t know that. Poor Dorothy, well, shes over the rainbow now…..

  97. In addition to allegedly turning a blind eye on assault, McTernan said police do not respond when children enter the clinics for abortions. He said some look as young as 13 years old. McTernan took pictures of the children to the district attorney and other authorities, but he said nothing has been done.
    “We point out how young they are, and the police refuse to do anything,” he said. “You name it, and it is going on there. I’ve got DVDs of me standing in front of a police officer, pointing out the kids and saying ‘look!’ He asked me, ‘Have you seen her birth certificate? Do you know how old she is?'”
    http://us.f807.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter ?MsgId=8210_4575440_65089_668_6318_0_25590_23893 _2779771189&Idx=3&YY=65499&y5beta=yes&y5beta= yes&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view= a&head=b&box=Sent

  98. Re:above post
    I suppose if the abortionist was serving alcohol to minors the police might do something sans a birth certificate…

  99. You can’t tell how old someone is by age alone. That’s why IDs are required when the police arrest based on charges of serving alcohol to minors. I’ve been mistaken for a thirteen year old before, and I’m past 18. Just pointin’ it out.

  100. Cameron,
    For seeming like such an “expert” on child rearing when it comes to parental involvement in an unplanned pregnancy; what exactly is your parenting experience???
    Do you have any living children?
    Just Curious. I know the best parents are usually those who don’t have any children.
    (They think they know it all)

  101. Cameron –
    Answer my questions or are you too much of a coward.
    No reputable news organizations uses online polls nor do they report on them. Most organizations won’t even accept signed online petitions. Any documentation/report that will use such a source and information as fact is a documentation/report that is biased and trying to fulfill their agenda. Why should I look any further? But since you insist on this:
    Reference #10 – a resource from 1992 from the periodical “Family Planning Perspectives”. This periodicle is now being published by the Guttmatcher Institute. Research on Parental notification has been around since the late 1980’s and hasn’t stopped. Family Planning Perspectives did research on this after 1992. Convenient that they use an article that is not in the online archives, even though more recent studies were available. This is called picking and choosing to obtain the desired outcome.
    Reference #9 – From a periodical called “Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health.” Formerly Known as “Family Planning Perspectives. ”
    Reference #6 – information from 1999 – from….yep you guessed it! “Family Planning Perspectives.”
    Reference #5 – The statement reads as if it is current numbers, however the results are from a 1995/1996 study. These numbers are too old to be considered accurate today. The information given from these statistics is actually an estimate, not fact but the article doesn’t tell you that. Even the Guttmatcher institute uses the words “It has been estimated” before throwing around statement like that.
    I can continue if you wish. Tell me Cameron, why would I even discuss what biased studies have found? This is a waste of my time and yours.
    “It

  102. MK, Good humor.
    Cameron,
    You are a master of diverting the questions asked of you.
    Do you have any living children??
    Do you have any parenting experience??? (Amoebas and anemones don’t count)
    I will answer your question. Although I shouldn’t since you ignored mine.
    I was not pregnant as a teen, since I was smart enough not to get pregnant unintentinally.
    Not getting pregnant is very easy contrary to your skewed viewpoints.

  103. “Do you have any living children??”
    No I don’t. You knew that however and you’re just making a foolish authority case.
    How many parents did you have?
    As you can see, nobody is any particular authority on what and why all teens who have abortions do so. Not even a teen who had an abortion. Likewise, having no kids or several kids, does not make one a parenting authority. Some of us will leave that up to socialigists and doctors, while you all can leave it up to your pedophile preacher men.

  104. Cameron –
    “Some of us will leave that up to socialigists and doctors, while you all can leave it up to your pedophile preacher men. ”
    *sigh*
    Still trying to change the subject huh?
    The questions arent’ difficult. I just want to know your opinion.

  105. Cameron,
    Once again you make no sense while trying to ignore and avoid Valerie’s questions.
    *another sigh*

  106. Valerie,
    Kudos for your research and excellent posts. Like you Valerie, I’m also waiting Cameron’s answers to some of my questions as well.
    Cameron,
    The research you refer to is so old!

  107. OK Screaming Val!
    “Answer my questions or are you too much of a coward.”
    You�re as subtle as a well-thrown brick. All push but no pop though.
    To answer your most recent demand…. You asked a lot of questions that, like your academic fortitude, are focused on the topic like a shot gun. Most of them were stupid questions and I didn�t want to take the time (it’s friday now). They were stupid because I answered them already… days ago, and you refused to acknowledge that answer, and/or instead reiterated somehow thinking it must be novel.
    None the less, if you�re going to be a belligerent fool, who am I not to amuse myself at your expense… I�ll humor your request and answer some of the more recent questions, and try to walk you through things.. holding your hand so to speak and explaining what’s wrong with questions. Try to keep up now.
    “Why do you say that Pro-Lifers need to stay out of your life and family, but you feel the Pro-Choicers can invade my life and my family?”
    This is what we call a loaded question. It absurdly presupposes that advocating no law is somehow pro-choice invading families… kind of like saying less government is somehow bigger government. It also ironically suggests that anti-choice families can�t exercise any influence on their own children that would exceed that of the phantom pro-choice menace. Likewise, I could ask what is so wrong with anti-choice folk that they know and expect their kids to go behind their back? Should we pass a law for everyone just because the children of anti-choice fools are chomping at the bit to get knocked-up and have an abortion? Did you flunk your last pee test?
    “Why do Middle/Jr/High Schools require parental consent before they give a student a benedryl for a bee sting?”
    I answered Mary�s version of the question already… regarding liposuction. Is your memory slipping with age, or is it just that you didn�t feel that it was surly enough without having to ask it five different ways?
    “What is your answer to the girl who has real concerns about being injured by her parents if they found out she was pregnant?”
    LOL…Kind of odd that you�d ask this since you�re insisting we tell her parents for her. Let me guess, you�re expecting the parent to say… “well it�s a good thing you told me… now that I know, I won�t beat her.”
    “Do you want her/or think she should stay in the hostile environment?”
    Again, I don�t see how advancing parental notification somehow saves her. SHE has to come forward to protect herself…. or show up against her parents will at an abortion clinic with injuries such that they have to report it. Every time you cast this lack of a law as the awful active something, it�s like your talking to plants on their own level.
    “And how can we protect her if she doesn’t tell anyone she needs help?”
    That�s what we call begging the question… or questions in this case. How do you know she needs help? How does telling her parents help us know she needs help short of inducing the beating she might finally report? Do you always go about things backwards like this? Maybe someday, when you�re younger….
    “Why do you feel that a teenager who has just had her hormones and emotions put on overdrive by an abortion be just as or better equipped than an adult to tell if there are problems resulting from the abortion?”
    I see… this is the same thing they tell boyfriends at CPCs… “She�s practically retarded now that she�s pregnant and you should make the decisions for her.” Val, for most woman abortions are about as physically traumatic as getting a tooth pulled. … and I know your not going to like this, but in reality most women feel incredibly relieved when it�s over. If there�s any undue emotional influence… it�s in advance of the abortion. Rub those two working brain cells together a little.
    “Why is it okay for a parent to force an abortion for their daughter but it is not okay for a parent to force the completion of pregnancy?”
    Nobody can force a mother to have an abortion. The law considers a minor an adult in the case of decisions regarding pregnancy, legal guardianship, and adoption. Perhaps you think she should provide parental notification for putting the kid up for adoption too. Clearly the kids been too traumatized by the birth to make any decisions about keeping it!! Try to actually know something… anything… in advance of asking a question about it… rather than just advancing your bucket loads of ignorance as somehow supposedly thought-provoking.
    “Why do you think that most parents do not care bout their children enough to help make a life altering decision?”
    I don�t think most parents don�t care. You should really stop pretending you know things that you don’t… particularly when you�re apparently pan-handling to buy a clue. It�s just bad acting. I�m starting to wonder if you just follow other women around at the grocery store and buy what they buy.
    I suspect your brain isn’t keeping up, but for those of you curious… IMO I think most parents know that their child must have ownership of this decision because it is a life altering one. Who know though… maybe we should demand parental notification for marriage too.
    “No reputable news organizations uses online polls”
    LMAO. Now we know you can�t read. 413 news articles invoking “online poll” in the last 24 hours. You are so damn stupid I�m starting to feel more a sense of pity than amusement.
    here
    BTW… you haven�t answered my questions regarding the poll. What do you think? More or less than 79%? What does it say about teens getting abortions?
    Reference #10 � sez most teen women discuss their abortions with their parents. Pretty much in harmony with #11. So… what�s the problem with it? Do you think fewer girls are discussing? More? Why?
    Reference #9 – Black and hispanic girls have more abortions than whites. Are you also troubled by this finding?? Why?
    Reference #6 � 60% of teens choose a lover within 2 years of their own age. What�s the problem here? Do you think it�s more or less? Why? Are there better statistics?
    Reference #5 � Teens using contraceptives having lower pregnancy rates seems like a no brainer to me. The reason they emphasize “estimate” is because we can not know or measure what would/might have happened otherwise accurately…. hence we infer. I agree that the statistic is rather dated though, and there are newer statistics, all of which indicating, unlike abstinence only pledging, lower pregnancy/std rates with sexual education and the promotion of contraception.
    “I can continue if you wish.”
    Indeed. I think it would be flippen fascinating if you picked a statistic which actually treats parental notification. Just a thought though.
    “Tell me Cameron, why would I even discuss what biased studies have found? This is a waste of my time and yours.”
    I�m sorry you can�t deal with reality, however, you could always produce your own studies/statistics. Or actually, do some critical analysis and support your accusation of bias and what… you know… beyond just whining that’s gotta be wrong.
    I think a better question is how did your teachers throughout your life cope with the hopeless pursuit of getting you to think for yourself? Talk about disappointing!

  108. ” I can continue if you wish.” No thanks. I think that’s enough gibberish for now.

  109. Which of these questions have you answered, Cameron?
    Do you think that a 15 year old should be able to walk into a plastic surgeons and get liposuction without her parent’s knowledge? She’s just removing some “tissue”. Why not?
    “So “parental notification laws will kill more young women than a lack of them and you know it”.
    Depending on the state, parental notification and consent laws have been on the books for years. Shouldn’t teenage girls already be dying by the hundreds from illegally induced abortion Cameron?”
    Also, if 14 years olds are truly as capable as adults to make medical decisions, then why must parents consent for any medical procedure at all from the age of 14 years and up? If insurance or medicaid would cover a gastric bypass or some kind of corrective cosmetic procedure for a 15 year old, why should parental consent be necessary?
    Why, in your opinion, can teens be responsible enough to make a decision like abortion but cannot be responsible enough to be held accountable for other actions?
    Why, in your opinion, can a parent force certain medical examinations on their daughter but cannot force anything concerning abortion?
    Do you think their should be a clause in laws which do away with the parental notification for teens who have some sort of disabilty that may hinder their understanding of symptoms to look for? And if you agree with this clause, then why would a “judge” clause in laws which favor parental notification be any different?
    How can parents properly care for their daughter if she doesn’t tell them she just had sugery? She can complain of chest pains, which is a serious symptom after any surgery, but without knowledge of a sugery being done the parents may just think it is heartburn.
    Why do Middle/Jr/High Schools require parental consent before they give a student a benedryl for a bee sting? or give a student a tylenol for a headache? Why is abortion not viewed as dangerous as giving out non-prescription medication?
    What is your answer to the girl who has real concerns about being injured by her parents if they found out she was pregnant? Do you want her/or think she should stay in the hostile environment? And how can we protect her if she doesn’t tell anyone she needs help?
    Why do you feel that a teenager who has just had her hormones and emotions put on overdrive by an abortion be just as or better equipped than an adult to tell if there are problems resulting from the abortion? (some may argue the emotions on overdrive part, but no one can deny the hormone part!)
    Why is it okay for a parent to force an abortion for their daughter but it is not okay for a parent to force the completion of pregnancy?

  110. Answered it
    Answered it
    Redundant question… see first question.
    Missed that one.
    Again… same question… 50th time see first question.
    Missed that one.
    Answered it
    100th time… see first question.
    Answered it
    Answered it
    Answered it
    Answered it
    If there is something unsatisfactory with a particular answer, then you need to elaborate why you feel like I didn’t answer it. Cutting and pasting the same questions over and over again just makes you look dim witted or absent minded, and I’m not interested in repeating myself for such fools.
    So answer me this one question; Can you dress yourself in the morning?

  111. Cameron,
    Please, what version of my question concerning liposuction are you talking about?

  112. The apparent reoccuring question is to ask why other procedures or medical interventions require parental consent, but abortion does not. I answered mary’s version.
    “If teens ages 14 and older are so capable of making sound medical decisions, then why is parental or guardian consent needed for all other medical procedures, excluding emergencies?”
    Posted by: Cameron at July 4, 2007 03:37 PM
    That

  113. Cutting and pasting the same questions over and over again just makes you look dim witted or absent minded, and I’m not interested in repeating myself for such fools.
    *Sound of buzzer*
    Try again…

  114. This also answers the why no consent when other procedures require it question
    “Nobody can force a mother to have an abortion. The law considers a minor an adult in the case of decisions regarding pregnancy, legal guardianship, and adoption.”

  115. “The question is WHY?”
    It’s OK MK… we know it hurts you.
    Because…..
    Posted by: Cameron at July 4, 2007 03:37 PM
    Posted by: Cameron at July 6, 2007 08:25 PM

  116. Cameron,
    I worked in the ER. Minors showed up after being intoxicated, in fights, caught having sex in bushes, driving drunk, abusing drugs, you name it. Certainly there was reason to believe these kids were going to be punished. Guess what? Parents or legal guardians were notified. Were these also “special cases”? If not, why not? You have not addressed the question I asked. Shouldn’t minors 14 years and older be allowed to make their own medical decisions? If they’re competent, why restrict them to one medical decision only?

  117. Cameron –
    Answering only 1/4 of the question and then insulting me isn’t really answering the question is it? You really are very good at spinning the subject matter. I think this is why you keep resorting to such low blows, because we aren’t falling for it anymore.
    “You�re as subtle as a well-thrown brick. ”
    I’m Irish Catholic – for us a thrown brick isn’t subtle enough. ;-)
    “Try to keep up now.”
    I have been keeping up. I think that is why you have resorted to cussing and name throwing.
    “It absurdly presupposes that advocating no law is somehow pro-choice invading families… ”
    Advocating no law? What are you talking about? Pro-Choice is advocating a change in laws and advocating keeping laws that pro-life disagrees with. What “no law” are you talking about? Did you even read the question? I’ll try to spell it out for you. Pro-Choice wants to tell my daughter that it is okay to lie to me if she gets pregnant. I want pro-choice out of my family. Telling my daughter to lie to me is invading my family. Pro-Choice wants Pro-life to stop trying to tell them what to do with their bodies. Pro-Choice says Pro-Life needs to stay out of their lives. Question – why does Pro-Choice say Pro-Life needs to be out of their lives all the while telling Pro-Life’s daughter to lie to pro-life’s parents?
    If that wasn’t basic enough for you to follow, then there is no hope for you.
    “It also ironically suggests that anti-choice families can�t exercise any influence on their own children that would exceed that of the phantom pro-choice menace. ”
    No that is not what it suggests. Maybe if you reread what I just wrote in this post, you may begin to grasp the concept.
    “I answered Mary�s version of the question already… regarding liposuction. ”
    You believe the answer is that telling their parents the truth will cause more abuse to a child; so therefore the laws need to tell the child to lie and sneak behind the parents backs to avoid this abuse? What should the police do if they arrest a child? Not tell the parents because it could cause more abuse? Abortion isn’t a “special case” when it comes to minors. It is a surgical procedure. Many say that it is the safest of all surgical procedures, but people still get injured and some have died.
    “Is your memory slipping with age, or is it just that you didn�t feel that it was surly enough without having to ask it five different ways?”
    My memory is fine. I thought you misunderstood the liposuction questions because your answer was so rediculous. It’s not that I “didn’t like the truth”, it is because the answer is seriously flawed in logic. If you make one case with minors “special” than you have to make others as “special” because the outcome – abuse – is the same. Now I know you said that abuse wasn’t the issue, but what do you think “coerce, unduly influence, or punish the kid ” means?
    “LOL…Kind of odd that you�d ask this since you�re insisting we tell her parents for her. ”
    More proof you are not reading anything correctly. I have said numerous times that if the child is in an abusive home than she needs to see the judge to wave the parental consent/notification laws. My question to you was what should be done after that? Should she get the abortion and then go back home to the abuse? Or should someone intervene?
    “Again, I don�t see how advancing parental notification somehow saves her. SHE has to come forward to protect herself…. ”
    Very good, now you may be getting it. If she can get the abortion with no one knowing about it then what will compell her to come forward? She will quietly get the abortion, go back to the abuse, and suffer many years because we, as a society, helped her to keep quiet. We have confirmed to her what her parents say – “Don’t tell anyone”.
    “or show up against her parents will at an abortion clinic with injuries such that they have to report it. ”
    Most abuse is done without any marks whatsoever. How can the abortion clinic report something that they cannot even see?
    “”She�s practically retarded now that she�s pregnant and you should make the decisions for her.”
    More proof you didn’t read. I never said retarded. I asked you how you feel that she can tell if something is wrong when adults have problems with this. I was over 30 years old when I had my D&C and I didn’t think there was anything to be worried about. Many women go through this. Many women call the doctor or talk to their husband/boyfriend/good friend about the problems and then decide if they need to get help. If a teenager didn’t tell anyone what happned, then how is she suppose to have anyone to talk to and know when something is seriously wrong? Especially when you remember that teenagers hormones are in overdrive and they are still adjusting to their maturing bodies.
    “Nobody can force a mother to have an abortion. ”
    I believe it was midnite who had a friend whose mother forced her to have an abortion. We are talking about teenagers.
    “The law considers a minor an adult in the case of decisions regarding pregnancy, legal guardianship, and adoption. ”
    Why does a minor have to have parental consent to see the OB/GYN if she is consider an adult? Why can’t an ultrasound be done without consent? Why can’t a PAP Smear be done without consent?
    “Try to actually know something… anything… ”
    I do know. And it is becoming increasingly clear that you have no clue.
    “IMO I think most parents know that their child must have ownership of this decision because it is a life altering one. Who know though… maybe we should demand parental notification for marriage too. ”
    LMAO – A minor DOES need parental consent before getting married. There is a piece of paper that the parents have to sign before a mariage certificate can be handed out to any minor(s).
    “413 news articles invoking “online poll” in the last 24 hours. ”
    hmm..lets see:
    a poll for a contest to see what the modern 7 wonders of the world are.
    a poll asking community if there needs to be more wardens.
    a poll regarding increasing the road commission from three to five members.
    a poll that said that “Moondance is the 3rd most important film festival in the world”.
    Did you even look at what kind of polls came up? They are fluff pieces with no basis in politics, science or law! The answers are not used in any statistical brochure claiming them to be fact. You will be happy to know that 3 Moondance winners have gone on to be nomitated for academy awards. Just don’t think that is real news, do you?
    “Reference #10 ….. what�s the problem with it? Do you think fewer girls are discussing? More? Why?”
    I don’t know how many girls are discussing it because the statistics are not accurate. Now, in my opinion I do believe that most teenaged girls do tell their parents. I do think that more teens talk about sex and consequences with their parents than what was done when I was in high school. This doesn’t make it any better for the minority that don’t talk about it. How many teens talk with their parents about this isn’t the issue. The issue is the government telling my daughter she doesn’t have to talk to me and that they give her the okay to lie to me.
    “Reference #9 – Black and hispanic girls have more abortions than whites. Are you also troubled by this finding?? Why?”
    What I find more troubling is the higher pregnancy rates. Many PP are in the African American and hispanic communities. Along with other pregnancy clinics that have BC options available. Why are they higher? Why are they not using what is available to them? Why is sex education not working? (Most do not use abstinence only)
    “Reference #6 ”
    The statistic is an estimate. Not a fact. No one can actually know the true percentage unless they followed every teen in America. Most teens that are open about their sexual experience have no problems talking about it if their partner is close to or the same age. The ones that are sexually active with older partners are told by that partner not to tell anyone so they don’t.
    “Reference #5 …. “The reason they emphasize “estimate” is because we can not know or measure what would/might have happened otherwise accurately…. hence we infer.”
    The brochure you linked to did not say estimate. I said that the Guttmatcher institute says estimate and I pointed out that they cannot know the true number. This is why the statistic is faulty.
    “I�m sorry you can�t deal with reality, however, you could always produce your own studies/statistics. ”
    I am dealing with reality. The reality that you would rather discuss faulty studies and not discuss the real issue. You’re right that I can produce my own studies/statistics. The brochure you linked to is proof that many people just make up numbers as they wish.
    “I think a better question is how did your teachers throughout your life cope with the hopeless pursuit of getting you to think for yourself?”
    Actually I gave many of my teachers headaches because I wouldn’t stop asking questions. I was told many times that I think too much.
    “So answer me this one question; Can you dress yourself in the morning?”
    Pants go on first, then the underwear…..
    ;-)

  118. Valerie,
    Go Girl!! Your posts are incredible. I’m also learning much from them as well, most important, if someone wants a fight with you, they’ll get it! Thank you for such excellent and informative posts.
    Speaking of parental consent. I can remember taking my daughter, then in her early teens, to have her ears pierced. I had to show ID with a picture, read and sign each section of a follow up care sheet, which was sent home with us, and of course sign a consent form which had every legal t crossed and i dotted. This just for an ear piercing. Yet my daughter could have gone into an abortion clinic and been aborted without my knowledge or consent? Certainly if she was mature enough to make a decision concerning an abortion, she was capable of making a decision to have her ears pierced.
    A year later that little stinker self pierced her naval!! I’m so glad the teen years are over!!

  119. Cameron says “I’m not interested in repeating myself for such fools.” ……… Then why do you keep coming here and answering for us “fools?”

  120. Odd, I was watching Dateline last night. They were popping guys left and right for trying to have sex with minors. Somebody should send Chris Hanson to an abortion clinic. Bust em all!!

  121. Oy Mary! Belly button piercings are dangerous when you do them on your own! I hope the piercing never got badly infected…
    When I got my ears pierced when I was little all my mom had to do was sign the consent form and in I went. Even when I was 7 getting my ears pierced for the first time all they did was hand my mom a sheet for her to sign and then a care-sheet. The second time around when I was 12 was much the same. When I got my nose pierced at 19 (and my various tattoos at 18) I just had to sign consent forms (and bring my ID to prove I was 18+) and they sent me off with a li’l package of salt (for the piercing) and or a care sheet for the tattoo(s).

  122. Rae,
    As a matter of fact she did develop an infection which was localized and healed once I took possession of the naval ring. I haven’t asked about it for a while, as she’s now 20 years old and its her business. I believe it did heal up though. Needless to say I was not pleased with her at all! She works in a law office where obvious tattoos and face jewelry are out of the question, so a few of her facial piercings will have to close up.
    That sounds like what I had to do for my tattoo as well, except of course show ID. He also wanted a health history review as well. I was a little nervous since he returned from his lunch break madder than a hornet at his staff. This was just before he was to work on my foot. Its not like this guy was Mr. Personality when he was in a good mood, but you don’t want your tattoo artist angry when he/she works on you! All’s well that ends well, I have a beautiful rose tattoo on my foot that I love and get all kinds of compliments on.

  123. Val,
    “Answering only 1/4 of the question and then insulting me isn’t really answering the question is it?”
    LOL… it isn’t really “not” answering them either… is it?
    “Pro-Choice wants to tell my daughter that it is okay to lie to me if she gets pregnant.”
    In addition to being a loaded question, this is a double syllogistic fallacy. It assumes the daughter is honest because someone else reported about her, and that she is dishonest if there is no law, when in fact, the daughter may still be honest or elusive with parents whether or not there is a law. It also equivocates reporting with lie.
    Perhaps I should ask you a loaded question so you understand:
    Why are you forcing teenage girls to be a mothers?
    “Pro-Choice wants Pro-life to stop trying to tell them what to do with their bodies.”
    LOL… This is a false dilemma. Not having parental notification does not prevent parents from telling their kids to not have abortions.
    “Pro-Choice says Pro-Life needs to stay out of their lives. Question – why does Pro-Choice say Pro-Life needs to be out of their lives all the while telling Pro-Life’s daughter to lie to pro-life’s parents? If that wasn’t basic enough for you to follow, then there is no hope for you.”
    Yes, I understood the first time, and it’s still a loaded question as you presume that not having a parental notification law is akin to an active directive, which couldn’t possibly be ignored, that your children behave a certain way. I’ll try to spell it out for you. Not having a parental notification law doesn’t mean your kids are not going to tell you. Alas, I suspect not, because there never was any hope for you.
    “You believe the answer is that telling their parents the truth will cause more abuse to a child; so therefore the laws need to tell the child to lie and sneak behind the parents backs to avoid this abuse? …”
    What you believe I believe has no relevance to the answer I posted. Perhaps I should put words in your mouth: You believe that nobody will have harmful abortion complications if there are parental notification laws?
    “What should the police do if they arrest a child? Not tell the parents because it could cause more abuse?”
    Abortion is not illegal numb-nuts.
    “Abortion isn’t a “special case” when it comes to minors. It is a surgical procedure. Many say that it is the safest of all surgical procedures, but people still get injured and some have died.”
    I like how you equivocate here replacing pregnancy with procedure. Pregnancy is a special case for the minor, and in all courts in all states, regarding all circumstances (abortion, adoption, legal guardianship of child) they are adult by default, by virtue of pregnancy, and there parents have no legal jurisdiction regarding their grandchildren.
    “It’s not that I “didn’t like the truth”, it is because the answer is seriously flawed in logic. If you make one case with minors “special” than you have to make others as “special” because the outcome – abuse – is the same.”
    The case is not special because of abuse.
    “Now I know you said that abuse wasn’t the issue,”
    OMG!!!! LMAO. It

  124. Abortion is not illegal numb-nuts.
    *sound of buzzer*
    try again…
    (Not to mention it’s anatomically incorrect)

  125. Cameron –
    Sorry for the delay – My family decided to take advantage of the great weekend weather we had here.
    As for your post. Considering the online poll and your so called proof that news agencies use them: How is using the top 4 on your list cherry picking? I went down the line, 1,2,3 and 4. That seems resonable to me.
    As for the rest: you are contracting yourself. Saying you said one thing and then denying it. I am also not going to play your pick and choose sentences to reply to game and make it sound like you said something you didn’t. I’m not dishonest. Anyone can read the post and see that you are not truly reading anything on here and just replying to get attention.

  126. “Anyone can read the post and see that you are not truly reading anything on here and just replying to get attention”
    Claps for Valerie!!!
    Good answer!! Thank you!!!

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