What it’s like
Two weeks ago I received this email:
Dear Jill,
I recently reached your website and quickly became interested in the things you and your guests had to say.
As a person who has had an abortion, I still remain neutral to the issue. I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I understand people have a right to their own opinion but I don’t believe in bashing other’s decisions and being completely against something when so many people know nothing about it.
Until I had mine, I didn’t realize the pain, both physical and mental, that a person went through. Five months later, I still think about it everyday, and just to clear things up, I don’t regret it. I know what was right for myself with my circumstances. I don’t agree with people rubbing it in my face. I don’t think I need anybody’s help to remind me what I did. I don’t think people should judge until they know what its like to be in someone else’s shoes….
Having an abortion isn’t an easy thing to go through. When you are very young and have a whole life ahead of you and how cruel society is, sometimes you have to do it for yourself, not bring a baby where it isn’t wanted.
Here are some lyrics for everyone to think about:
and then she heads for the clinic and
she gets some static walking through the door
they call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
and they call her a whore
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
cause then you really might know what it’s like
I thanked her for visiting my site and taking the time to write me. I asked where she got that poem and how did people rub her abortion in her face. She answered:
It’s a song by Everlast called, “What it’s like.” It’s not exactly people, it’s just the small things… when you ride on the Interstate how there are huge billboard signs on how abortion should be illegalized. It is something you can’t ever forget. Recently I saw several signs in a neighborhood saying abortion is murder. I am constantly reminded of it by the songs that I hear.
I responded I had heard that Everlast song many times but never paid attention to the words. I said I felt very badly for her. I asked if I could post her emails so people would understand “what it’s like.” She never answered. I hope she is ok. I emailed her this morning and let her know I was posting this. So she will likely read everyone’s comments, again, if she’s ok. I hope and pray so. Clearly, although she denies it, her abortion haunts her.
My thought has always been we cannot stop talking about and showing abortion out of misplaced sympathy for post-abortive mothers. I’ve heard church pastors say this. But doing so allows these mothers to remain in pseudo-denial. Doing so makes us complicit in perpetuating the cycle. Doing so adds to the number of post-abortive mothers by allowing them to ignorantly walk into it.
There are many good groups to counsel post-abortive mothers, like SaveOne, Project Rachel, and Silent No More.
I hope my email friend seeks one out. You can move past your abortion, T. There is hope and healing. God bless you.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Well, come on over and talk to us. I can understand someone not wanting to be judged. I can’t help but think that the post abortive woman is already in judgement of herself. As far as society, you’ll never be able to stop judgement. We are all judged on our wrongs, and that’s just the way it goes. If I were to tell all of you that I was having an affair with a married man, what kind of feedback would I likely receive?
I don’t like that song by Everlast. The beat draaaaags. That’s why I never even bothered to listen to the lyrics. Whenever it would come on the radio, I’d just change the station.
“and then she heads for the clinic and
she gets some static walking through the door
they call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
and they call her a whore
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
cause then you really might know what it’s like”
I really don’t like this song, never have. So if I never have an abortion I shouldn’t have an opinion on the matter? I have never seen anything like what he sings. Plus for some reason I feel like i’m being manipulated by the singer. I’m sorry it offends women when we say abortion is muder because of what it implys, but at the same time I feel that it is manipulative to ask me not to.
Rosie, good point. And does the MALE singer know what it’s like to have an abortion?
for Heather,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tvSoVPKLGQ
jasper, LOL! Did you not love that movie?
Peter, Whaaaaaat’s happening?
Hi,
There is a problem with many people-related judgments. We automatically tend to place people on an ‘approval-ladder’. I strongly suspect that pro-choicers and pro-aborts secretly share the conviction that abortion is baby killing. Sure there are all sorts of denial strategies like: 1) it’s not about a fetus, she just wishes to end pregnancy …… 2) the whole body autonomy argument … used to convince yourself that a pregnant mother’s wishes (choices, whims, rights, valuation) is so superior to her child [high-up on the ladder] that she can decide to rid herself of the (nuisance, intrusion). There are several other intellectual arguments/rationalizations. One way or another, her baby’s life is forfeit!
This is strange indeed …. deciding that I know best (for me, in my circumstances) … and supporting a woman’s right-to-choose-to-kill- her-baby – aka Doug, Hal, etc. The superiority of the mother’s decision is of paramount importance. She has the right-to-judge … to condemn her child to death.
Both (PL & PC) approve of this right-to-judge. Not all but some PL think it is OK to judge a woman who has had an abortion (or more) by putting-them-down. They often do the same with folks like me … to help distance themselves from struggling. It can be seen with happening to people who are disenfranchised: the disabled; the elderly; the elderly-disabled …. is this kick-them-while-down?
At present, this right-to-judge gains merit by some (often the most flamboyant) PL’ers belittling PC’ers. Too often we forget that pointing-a-finger at anyone, means that there is three more (on the same hand) pointing right back. I point, you point … as Heather says everyone does-it!
Time for you to heal … end this finger-pointing and be prepared for a ((((HUG))))), or two, or more. Time for laughter, and joy, and PEACE!
John, your post is mucho arguable-with, but Peace to you as well.
Doug
I strongly suspect that pro-choicers and pro-aborts secretly share the conviction that abortion is baby killing.
*********************************
If the truth suited the antichoice agenda then they wouldnt have to lie. That they DO have to lie shows their basic lack of integrity and their inability to come to terms with the truth.
Rosie, good point. And does the MALE singer know what it’s like to have an abortion?
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 11:11 AM
*************************
The song is about sitting in judgment of someone when you’ve never been in their situation. The song addresses a person with a drinking problem, and addresses losing someone to street violence as well. Whimpering ‘what does a man know’ makes you look foolish.
One short comment: I have never walked in the shoes of a drug dealer, but I still don’t want them selling drugs to my children. I have never walked in the shoes of a pedophile, but I still don’t want them around my children. I have never walked in the shoes of a child abuser, but I will do my best to protect their children from them. So I have never walked in the shoes of a woman contemplating having an abortion, but I will still try to give her another choice besides killing her child and work to save all pre-born children from death.
Great point Dr. Lyn!
wow Dr. Lyn….great analogy.
Hi TexasRed,
PEACE to you too! [Peace and Truth are the same.]
Abortion is murder and I am not sorry it offends a lot of post abortives, although I am very sorry for the guilt that they feel generally, they are victims of abortion. A lot of post abortive women are suffering from a certain kind of grief called complicated grief. In contradistinction to where T is coming from some post abortives see the pro life movement and the specific ways in which the pro life movement tries to achieve its aims, as a lifeline for them.
Rosie, I agree with you.
Abortion is murder and I am not sorry it offends a lot of post abortives, although I am very sorry for the guilt that they feel generally, they are victims of abortion. A lot of post abortive women are suffering from a certain kind of grief called complicated grief. In contradistinction to where T is coming from some post abortives see the pro life movement and the specific ways in which the pro life movement tries to achieve its aims, as a lifeline for them.
Posted by: sarah at August 31, 2007 5:43 PM
If deliberate abortion is murder, what is spontaneous abortion? Manslaughter? What is a post abortive? Complicated grief? Seems to me that anyone continually and extendedly mourning over a decision that they themselves made, needed emotional assistance before making any decision. I believe that such women would benefit from the assistance of a medical health professional to uncover the true cause for such grief.
Rosie, good point. And does the MALE singer know what it’s like to have an abortion?
Posted by: Heather at August 31, 2007 11:11 AM
Does being a man prevent a man from having empathy? What is your excuse? I mean, what was your personal experience of abortion?
“If deliberate abortion is murder, what is spontaneous abortion? ”
a miscarriage, ..not murder you silly
Hi,
There is a problem with many people-related judgments. We automatically tend to place people on an ‘approval-ladder’. I strongly suspect that pro-choicers and pro-aborts secretly share the conviction that abortion is baby killing. Sure there are all sorts of denial strategies like: 1) it’s not about a fetus, she just wishes to end pregnancy …… 2) the whole body autonomy argument … used to convince yourself that a pregnant mother’s wishes (choices, whims, rights, valuation) is so superior to her child [high-up on the ladder] that she can decide to rid herself of the (nuisance, intrusion). There are several other intellectual arguments/rationalizations. One way or another, her baby’s life is forfeit!
This is strange indeed …. deciding that I know best (for me, in my circumstances) … and supporting a woman’s right-to-choose-to-kill- her-baby – aka Doug, Hal, etc. The superiority of the mother’s decision is of paramount importance. She has the right-to-judge … to condemn her child to death.
Both (PL & PC) approve of this right-to-judge. Not all but some PL think it is OK to judge a woman who has had an abortion (or more) by putting-them-down. They often do the same with folks like me … to help distance themselves from struggling. It can be seen with happening to people who are disenfranchised: the disabled; the elderly; the elderly-disabled …. is this kick-them-while-down?
At present, this right-to-judge gains merit by some (often the most flamboyant) PL’ers belittling PC’ers. Too often we forget that pointing-a-finger at anyone, means that there is three more (on the same hand) pointing right back. I point, you point … as Heather says everyone does-it!
Time for you to heal … end this finger-pointing and be prepared for a ((((HUG))))), or two, or more. Time for laughter, and joy, and PEACE!
Posted by: John McDonell at August 31, 2007 12:00 PM
Hello John.
I’m not a naive young girl. My mother had 9 pregnancies and I am the third and last to survive birth. My sister has 2 children from 8 pregnancies. I have 2 from 4. I know very well that I was not a mother until I experienced a live birth. Then I had a baby/child whatever euphanism you wish to use. I don’t appreciate others dehumaniizing the necessity of my body in creating my children. I don’t appreciate others talking down to me and insisting that I must call the contents of my uterous by their chosen pet names for those contents.
I find your attitude offensive and disrespectful to women in general. I mean really! When a woman spontaneously aborts or suffers a still birh, who get’s blamed and who should be punished?
One short comment: I have never walked in the shoes of a drug dealer, but I still don’t want them selling drugs to my children. I have never walked in the shoes of a pedophile, but I still don’t want them around my children. I have never walked in the shoes of a child abuser, but I will do my best to protect their children from them. So I have never walked in the shoes of a woman contemplating having an abortion, but I will still try to give her another choice besides killing her child and work to save all pre-born children from death.
Posted by: Dr. Lyn at August 31, 2007 2:40 PM
You have walked in the shoes of all of the above. You have simply not been put in them. It’s interesting that you put a medical procedure in the same catagory as what you obviously deem ‘moral’ crimes.
“If deliberate abortion is murder, what is spontaneous abortion? ”
a miscarriage, ..not murder you silly
Posted by: jasper at August 31, 2007 7:02 PM
Then a deliberate abortion is not murder, silly. It’s a medical procedure more safely mimmicking spontaneous abortion.
Sally,
Man has a heart attack -> he died from natural causes
Man has a heart attack because someone poisoned him -> murder
big difference Sally.
One short comment: I have never walked in the shoes of a drug dealer, but I still don’t want them selling drugs to my children. I have never walked in the shoes of a pedophile, but I still don’t want them around my children. I have never walked in the shoes of a child abuser, but I will do my best to protect their children from them. So I have never walked in the shoes of a woman contemplating having an abortion, but I will still try to give her another choice besides killing her child and work to save all pre-born children from death.
Posted by: Dr. Lyn at August 31, 2007 2:40 PM
*********************************
Pedophilia and child abuse have nothing to do with the point of the song. Neither does selling drugs. The issue is trying to sit in judgment of someone and trying to tell yourself youre ‘better’ than someone when youve never been faced with the same situation they are living with. If the woman knows that ending her pregnancy is her best option, who are you to try to contradict her and pretend YOU know more about her situation than she does? Thats the point of the song – y ou fantasize you ‘know whats best’ for her even though you know NOTHING about her life. You ‘know’ abortion is the ‘wrong choice’ and it doesnt matter to you what SHE thinks feels or believes. Thats the point of the song – people with YOUR attitude.
Hi TexasRed,
PEACE to you too! [Peace and Truth are the same.]
Posted by: John McDonell at August 31, 2007 5:08 PM
********************************
Uhmmmmmmmmm …………….. no, they’re not.
Abortion is murder and I am not sorry it offends a lot of post abortives, although I am very sorry for the guilt that they feel generally, they are victims of abortion. A lot of post abortive women are suffering from a certain kind of grief called complicated grief. In contradistinction to where T is coming from some post abortives see the pro life movement and the specific ways in which the pro life movement tries to achieve its aims, as a lifeline for them.
Posted by: sarah at August 31, 2007 5:43 PM
***************************
No, abortion is not murder, and PAS is an antichoice urban myth – or lie, if you prefer to use that word instead.
Sally,
Man has a heart attack -> he died from natural causes
Man has a heart attack because someone poisoned him -> murder
big difference Sally.
Posted by: jasper at August 31, 2007 7:27 PM
What is the difference to the dead man Jasper? None. Unless you believe in avenging ghosts of course. It all comes down to valuation. You don’t have any sense of moral outrage over a spontaneously aborted conceptus. Your indignation is triggered by the woman wanting the abortion. Why is that?
@ “Texas Red.” What do you know about PAS?
@ “Texas Red.” What do you know about PAS?
Posted by: sarah at August 31, 2007 8:21 PM
Oh good grief!
“Oh good grief!” Meaning?
Good to know Dr.Lyn has walked in the shoes of a drug dealer, pedophile, and chlid abuser.
“Oh good grief!” Meaning?
Posted by: sarah at August 31, 2007 8:35 PM
Meaning that PAS is a meaningless acronym for a non existant mental condition. Did I really need to explain that?
Why not tell these pro choice and pro life women that PAS is a lie.
http://www.passboards.org/
which currently has 17,000 members who have all posted messges about seriously regretting their abortion. Do feel free to pick apart/ laugh at/ deny their desparate cries for help. Go for it.
Selection of recent messages
Msg 1
I dont even know how to begin explaining this.
Im sitting here shaking, and the tears wont stop. I cant sleep, i cant eat, i just think about my little boy. Nothing in this world seems to matter anymore, the sun in the morning doesnt bring me hope, the cold air dosent refresh or replenish me.
I feel so desperate and vunerable
I take pills at night to force sleep, and lay there wishing and hoping that i wont wake up in the morning. I feel like ive lost control over myself.
All i ever wanted was Tyler, my love for him was so endless, he was my whole life, my reason for being. He is gone
Msg 2
i cant stop crying, why? this is so horrible, iv never experienced so much pain. all i can think of is the abortion when my world really came tumbling down around me.
Msg 3
i just went on an adoption web site, read the letters from couples wanting to adopt, read the “success stories”
i never considered adoption as an option, i wouldn’t be able to live with myself, that somewhere was my child living with other people as her parents, to not watch her grow, to miss all of the first times she had, to know that someone else was holding her and telling her how much they love her i would not have been able to cope.
but i went on this site and reading those letters from couples so desperate to have a baby in thier lives, realising how precious that baby would be………………..
why didn’t i realise how precious she would have been, why didn’t i consider it at least and give her a chance. i read one letter and i thought to myself these are the people i would have picked for her but then i wouldn’t have been able to go thrugh with that.
and i dont even understand any of this cos i wish i had her here with me now, not here but with someone else, i want to be her mum, to look after her, not someone else so why, oh i dont undertand, my emotions have just suddenly gone all out of control.
why did i have to look at that site, these people want a child so badly, they realise the gift it is but i threw that gift away i had no right to do that and i regret it every single day this hurts………….
Tend to think of the denial of PAS as more of nasty self justification for an act motivated by interlinked selfishness and pathological lack of compassion.
Hi Sally,
“who get’s blamed and who should be punished?”
nobody is ‘blaming’ anyone … why should they? [‘blaming’ is finger-pointing … guess you had better re-read my post.] As for the condescending … that too has me baffled … I wish people to grow … and we humans happen to be a species that acts as an aggregation. So is being ‘together’ is condescending?
Hi TR,
Hi TexasRed,
PEACE to you too! [Peace and Truth are the same.]
Posted by: John McDonell at August 31, 2007 5:08 PM
********************************
Uhmmmmmmmmm …………….. no, they’re not.
********************************************
********************************************
yes, they a-a-a-a-r-r-r-r-r-e-e-e!!!!
Why not tell these pro choice and pro life women that PAS is a lie.
http://www.passboards.org/
which currently has 17,000 members who have all posted messges about seriously regretting their abortion. Do feel free to pick apart/ laugh at/ deny their desparate cries for help. Go for it.
Selection of recent messages
Msg 1
I dont even know how to begin explaining this.
Im sitting here shaking, and the tears wont stop. I cant sleep, i cant eat, i just think about my little boy. Nothing in this world seems to matter anymore, the sun in the morning doesnt bring me hope, the cold air dosent refresh or replenish me.
I feel so desperate and vunerable
I take pills at night to force sleep, and lay there wishing and hoping that i wont wake up in the morning. I feel like ive lost control over myself.
All i ever wanted was Tyler, my love for him was so endless, he was my whole life, my reason for being. He is gone
Msg 2
i cant stop crying, why? this is so horrible, iv never experienced so much pain. all i can think of is the abortion when my world really came tumbling down around me.
Msg 3
i just went on an adoption web site, read the letters from couples wanting to adopt, read the “success stories”
i never considered adoption as an option, i wouldn’t be able to live with myself, that somewhere was my child living with other people as her parents, to not watch her grow, to miss all of the first times she had, to know that someone else was holding her and telling her how much they love her i would not have been able to cope.
but i went on this site and reading those letters from couples so desperate to have a baby in thier lives, realising how precious that baby would be………………..
why didn’t i realise how precious she would have been, why didn’t i consider it at least and give her a chance. i read one letter and i thought to myself these are the people i would have picked for her but then i wouldn’t have been able to go thrugh with that.
and i dont even understand any of this cos i wish i had her here with me now, not here but with someone else, i want to be her mum, to look after her, not someone else so why, oh i dont undertand, my emotions have just suddenly gone all out of control.
why did i have to look at that site, these people want a child so badly, they realise the gift it is but i threw that gift away i had no right to do that and i regret it every single day this hurts………….
I’d aim these women in the direction of really good shrinks. They even have them in England. Do you know what British web site you copied and pasted from?
I’m not English and I have never lived in England, Sally. Perhaps if you paid any attention at all, you’d notice that they are from the American website posted above.
LOL
And double LOL!! I just noticed this:
Hi TR,
Hi TexasRed,
PEACE to you too! [Peace and Truth are the same.]
Posted by: John McDonell at August 31, 2007 5:08 PM
********************************
Uhmmmmmmmmm …………….. no, they’re not.
********************************************
********************************************
yes, they a-a-a-a-r-r-r-r-r-e-e-e!!!!
Seems to me that anyone continually and extendedly mourning over a decision that they themselves made, needed emotional assistance before making any decision. I believe that such women would benefit from the assistance of a medical health professional to uncover the true cause for such grief.
Posted by: Sally at August 31, 2007 6:35 PM
Yeah lol. I’m off, G’night Bethany.
Goodnight, Sarah! Oh and you too Hippie :)
Oh yes hippie sorry,
I can
I’m not English and I have never lived in England, Sally. Perhaps if you paid any attention at all, you’d notice that they are from the American website posted above.
Posted by: sarah at August 31, 2007 9:44 PM
I cannot find the source of the web site let alone the country that your ”featured’ posters have posted from. Can you?
I’m sure that you know that the origion of a webbie doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the country of origion of a individual responding to such web content? No? @@
Oh yes hippie sorry,
I can
Perhaps that would have somethig to do with you both imagining what it might feel to have an emotion and trying to compare it to emotional distress. You are both quite trite.
Posted by: Sally at August 31, 2007 10:58 PM
I don
Perhaps that would have somethig to do with you both imagining what it might feel to have an emotion and trying to compare it to emotional distress. You are both quite trite.
Posted by: Sally at August 31, 2007 10:58 PM
I don
Well I have to agree that only the woman can know how she feels. I think everyone
Sally: “It all comes down to valuation. You don’t have any sense of moral outrage over a spontaneously aborted conceptus. Your indignation is triggered by the woman wanting the abortion. Why is that?”
while I have no moral outrage from a mis-carriage (dead unborn baby) or (man who dies from a heart attack), Sally, I do feel very sad for what has happened.
My indignation Sally is really not triggered by the women having abortions, it’s triggered by legalization of such an act and the companies i.e. (PP) who captialize on it. And by having this legal, many people get lulled into thinking; “well, it’s legal so it must be ok”.
Sally: “It all comes down to valuation. You don’t have any sense of moral outrage over a spontaneously aborted conceptus. Your indignation is triggered by the woman wanting the abortion. Why is that?”
while I have no moral outrage from a mis-carriage (dead unborn baby) or (man who dies from a heart attack), Sally, I do feel very sad for what has happened.
My indignation Sally is really not triggered by the women having abortions, it’s triggered by legalization of such an act and the companies i.e. (PP) who captialize on it. And by having this legal, many people get lulled into thinking; “well, it’s legal so it must be ok”.
Posted by: jasper at August 31, 2007 11:48 PM
Yea. Women are morons. Thanks Jasper. You are a gem. @@
Well I have to agree that only the woman can know how she feels. I think everyone
“Yea. Women are morons. Thanks Jasper. You are a gem.”
No Sally, thats not what I’m saying at all. I think you know what I mean without me having to explain it to you. By having something bad as abortion legal, some( probably many) women or men who don’t have any moral guidance will fall into this trap and believe the big lie.
Sally,
It all comes down to valuation.
Et tu brute?
Well I have to agree that only the woman can know how she feels. I think everyone
Yea. Women are morons. Thanks Jasper. You are a gem. @@
Actually, Sally, you’re the only one besides Texas Red) here who I’ve ever seen who actually DOES call women morons, simply for being women, and younger than you. None of us have ever done anything of the sort. What is in your heart is what will continue to come forth from your mouth (or in this case, from your fingertips).
PAS is not a lie. Look at all the groups formed by suffering women/men. Abortion can hurt, and if your abortion doesn’t bother YOU, then at least respect those who are hurting. Obviously one cannot truthfully state that abortion hurts nobody.
PAS is not a lie. Look at all the groups formed by suffering women/men. Abortion can hurt, and if your abortion doesn’t bother YOU, then at least respect those who are hurting. Obviously one cannot truthfully state that abortion hurts nobody.
Heather, while “PAS” per se doesn’t exist, some women do have some post-traumatic stress after having abortions – no doubt about it, same as some women do after giving birth.
Doug
“what is spontaneous abortion?”
out of anyone’s hands.
Ummm Doug,
Heather, while “PAS” per se doesn’t exist,
That would be your valuation…
Doug, PTSD has been described as part of PAS. It’s still suffering. I take it as you just don’t care.
So what if someone gave it a name? What should we call women who fall apart after abortion? Nutsos, crack pots, ga ga? “Oh she had issues before the abortion.” Doug, I have seen women fall apart after abortions. I guess society just expects them to be stoic. Suck it up. It doesn’t work that way. Besides, have you noticed one thing that most pro aborts have in common here? Anger. Misdirected anger at pro lifers.
“Heather, while “PAS” per se doesn’t exist,”
MK: That would be your valuation…
Nope, it’s the medical observation that it’s not a disorder specific to having abortions. PTSD can come from any number of things.
Doug
Heather: Doug, PTSD has been described as part of PAS. It’s still suffering.
Yes – suffering, but some people want to spin the PTSD into a more prevalent thing than what is true.
I take it as you just don’t care.
Well, that would not be the first time you’ve been wrong.
Doug
Heather: So what if someone gave it a name?
If the intent is to pretend that it’s more prevalent than what the truth is, then it’s a false premise.
……..
What should we call women who fall apart after abortion? Nutsos, crack pots, ga ga?
Why do you think they need be called anything? They’re people who likely could benefit from counseling, etc., same as multitudes of people who are stressed from other causes.
……..
“Oh she had issues before the abortion.”
While this is very common, it does not have to be that way.
……..
Doug, I have seen women fall apart after abortions. I guess society just expects them to be stoic. Suck it up. It doesn’t work that way.
No, I don’t think society expects that. I know that some women really do suffer and end up having regrets, on balance. There are no guarantees in life that such won’t happen, and the same is true for women who elect to continue pregnancies and give birth. That’s no reason to take away the freedom that women have in the matter.
……..
Besides, have you noticed one thing that most pro aborts have in common here? Anger. Misdirected anger at pro lifers.
If you find somebody who is actually “for abortion,” then they’re just as anti-choice as you. As far as anger, when you want to take away peoples’ freedom, they might tend to get a bit irate, yes, but you’re gonna have that.
Doug
So if they fall apart, oh well. If they kill themselves? Ah well, that just goes along with the territory. Undesirable consequence.
So if they fall apart, oh well. If they kill themselves? Ah well, that just goes along with the territory. Undesirable consequence.
Just where do you see anybody saying that?
Because of your failure to accept that women DO suffer from abortion.
Because of your failure to accept that women DO suffer from abortion.
Good grief, Heather, I’ve never said anything such.
“some women do have some post-traumatic stress after having abortions – no doubt about it”
Now really, how hard is that to understand?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Doug
So if they fall apart, oh well. If they kill themselves? Ah well, that just goes along with the territory. Undesirable consequence.
Just where do you see anybody saying that?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No one said that.
I think that anyone suffering from PTSD should seek treatment.
What about all the women who suffer from post-partum depression/psychosis? Should we encourage them to seek treatment, or do we outlaw childbearing?
Laura: I think that anyone suffering from PTSD should seek treatment.
What about all the women who suffer from post-partum depression/psychosis? Should we encourage them to seek treatment, or do we outlaw childbearing?
Exactly, Laura, good point.
Doug
Doug,
Nope, it’s the medical observation that it’s not a disorder specific to having abortions. PTSD can come from any number of things.
Well, at this point in time that would be the medical communities valuation. But not mine.
“Nope, it’s the medical observation that it’s not a disorder specific to having abortions. PTSD can come from any number of things.”
MK: Well, at this point in time that would be the medical communities valuation. But not mine.
Nope again.
Doug, have a heart! You’re making it up as you go along. Why have women formed groups like Silent No More and Rachel’s Vineyard? …..cuz they want to heal from abortion. I can’t understand why you would want to take that away from them. You aren’t giving the woman anywhere to turn. You’re basically saying to her, “it was your CHOICE, now deal with it.” That’s what the message is with denial of PAS. Just shut up, and deal with it.
Doug,
Nope again.
Yep, right back at ya.
Laura, of course not. Post partum depression should also be treated.
Heather: Doug, have a heart!
I do, Heather. Legal abortion means less suffering, and I don’t want women to lose the freedom they now have in the matter.
……..
You’re making it up as you go along. Why have women formed groups like Silent No More and Rachel’s Vineyard? …..cuz they want to heal from abortion. I can’t understand why you would want to take that away from them.
Wrong – I’ve never said anything to that effect. What did you see me say to make you think that? Nothing. I’m all for people getting the help they need, whether it’s men, women, whether it’s after abortion, after childbirth, after getting anchovies on a pizza, etc.
……..
You aren’t giving the woman anywhere to turn. You’re basically saying to her, “it was your CHOICE, now deal with it.” That’s what the message is with denial of PAS. Just shut up, and deal with it.
B a l o n e y.
While there is not the “syndrome,” nobody told you that no woman ever suffers after having an abortion. Yes – there are cases of post-traumatic stress, and I’m for those women getting help and feeling better.
Doug
“Nope, it’s the medical observation that it’s not a disorder specific to having abortions. PTSD can come from any number of things.”
MK: Well, at this point in time that would be the medical communities valuation. But not mine.
“Nope again.”
Yep, right back at ya.
You are confusing valuation with observed reality and statistics.
Doug
Doug,
You are confusing the medical communities valuation and the reality that PAS exists. If it walks like a duck…
100 years ago, Schizophrenia was not called schizophrenia. 100 years ago autistic kids were locked up and thought retarded. 1000 years ago manic depression was considered posession.
Not having a label for something is not proof that it doesn’t exist. It is just proof that there is no label for it.
Do you honestly think that because no one realize that the world was round, it remained flat until that revelation?
You are confused. Not I.
MK: Not having a label for something is not proof that it doesn’t exist. It is just proof that there is no label for it.
The question is whether it’s a syndrome or not. The experience of the vast majority of women who have abortions is so positive that it’s not a syndrome.
…..
Do you honestly think that because no one realize that the world was round, it remained flat until that revelation?
Nope – that’s physical reality, just like the number of PTSD cases of women who have had abortion. It’s not “valuation,” it’s that it does not fit the definition of “syndrome.”
Doug
I hope that girl feels worse and worse and that she knows that I and others consider her a murderer on the same level as Ted Bundy and that she ought to be surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly executed after a fair and speedy trial resulting in a murder conviction.
We need to start thinking of moms who murder their children as MURDERERS who are to be tried and upon conviction executed. When we only talk about caring for post-abortive girls and not communicate the need to bring about justice on these murderers we make the violent killing of babies more and more acceptable.
BOTTOM LINE: Let’s start treating and thinking of those who knowingly murder their own children the same way we do Ted Kaczynski or Tim McVeigh who planned out their murders.
Everlast sucks! I have always hated those guys intensely.
I hope that girl feels worse and worse and that she knows that I and others consider her a murderer on the same level as Ted Bundy and that she ought to be surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly executed after a fair and speedy trial resulting in a murder conviction.
Posted by: Zeke13:19 at September 3, 2007 12:11 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SING ALONG!
“And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love…”
MK: Not having a label for something is not proof that it doesn’t exist. It is just proof that there is no label for it.
*
The question is whether it’s a syndrome or not. The experience of the vast majority of women who have abortions is so positive that it’s not a syndrome.
The vast majority of people that wake up in the morning don’t want to kill themselves. Does this mean that depression doesn’t exist?
http://www.priestsforlife.org/postabortion/postabortiontestimonywomen.htm
* A set of symptoms or conditions that occur together and suggest the presence of a certain disease or an increased chance of developing the disease.
http://www.iffgd.org/GIDisorders/glossary.html
* A collection of symptoms that characterize a specific disease or condition.
http://www.painconnection.org/MyTreatment/MayoClinic_glossary.asp
* A group of symptoms as reported by the patient and signs as detected in an examination that together are characteristic of a specific condition.
http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/bridge.html
* A condition in which certain glands become inflamed. May interfere with production of tears and saliva and can accompany rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, scleroderma or polymyositis.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/AR/00026.html
* a group of characteristics that occur together.
ymghealthinfo.org/content.asp
* a combination of signs and symptoms that occur together and reflect a particular disease.
http://www.usurg.com/Glossary_terms.htm
* All the signs and symptoms associated with a disease.
http://www.addiction-rehabilitation.com/glossary.html
* a set of symptoms that occur together
http://www.southalabama.edu/alliedhealth/cls/Ravine/glossary_of_pathology_and_%20medical_terms.htm
* A set of symptoms which occur together: extended symptoms or involvement.
http://www.rehabdesigns.com/medical_terms.htm
* A syndrome is
Doug,
I’ll let these women know…I’m sure they’ll be relieved that someone with your expertise has cleared up the misconception. Wouldn’t want them to go around “pretending” that they are depressed…Thanks. What would we do without you?
Alexandra, New York: My testimonial.
[Read Transcript]
Amy, Missouri: Empty-Handed, Broken-Hearted No Longer!
[Read Transcript]
Angie C., Ohio
[Watch Video]
Angie E., Ohio: As a teenager, Angie was looking for love but found depression, guilt, and self-hate after her parents dropped her off at abortion clinics to terminate her unwanted pregnancies.
[Read Transcript]
Ann: Never Again. Ann had an abortion after her birth control failed and years later, she still regrets her decision.
[Read Transcript]
Ashli, Florida: There are no words to describe the agony.
[Read Transcript]
Barb, Ohio: Going to an abortion clinic to get the information to make a good decision, Barb was told she had nothing to worry about. Twenty-one years later, she is still struggling with her choice though she knows she has been forgiven.
[Read Transcript]
Barbara, Idaho: (4:51)
[Watch Video] [Listen to Audio] [Read Transcript]
Becky, Michigan: I was so afraid, alone, and desperate that I just felt I had to get out of the situation somehow.
[Read Transcript]
Bernadette, Florida: The right.
[Read Transcript]
Beth: I knew that God could use me.
[Read Transcript]
Betty: Finally, post-abortion stress syndrome exposed.
[Read Transcript]
Billie, California: How Long it Took.
[Read Transcript]
Bonnie, Canada: From Death to Life.
[Read Transcript]
Carol, Alabama
[Watch Video] [Read Transcript]
Cathie, Ohio: From darkness into light.
[Read Transcript]
Chantel, Canada
[Listen in French – MP3 format]
Christina: After her abortion in 1987, Christina speaks out about the inability of young girls to make informed decisions when the people around them either provide no counsel or pro-abortion rhetoric.
[Read Transcript]
Cindy, California: At age 39, Cindy was married, financially secure, and had two young children, but fear caused by an unplanned pregnancy led her to have an abortion.
[Read Transcript]
Colleen, MN
[Watch Video]
D., Tennessee: The Power of Healing While Dying
[Read Transcript]
Dawn, Nebraska: It was very degrading.
[Read Transcript]
Debra, New Jersey
[Read Transcript]
Denise, FL
[Watch Video]
Diane
[Read Transcript]
Donna: Where to begin
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: Free at Last.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: Jesus changes everything.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: I am a voice…where can I speak?
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: I still grieve.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: I wish I had had a choice.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: Miracle couple.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: My abortion, a story about denial.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: My Grandmother’s secret.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: The gift.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: Why I march.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: The story of Mary Kate.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous: Through the mercy of God, I have received forgiveness and healing.
[Read Transcript]
Anonymous, Virginia: This is more for me than for you.
[Read Transcript]
See more testimonies at the Priests for Life website.
Edith, FL
[Watch Video]
Ellen: By age 35, Ellen had had 4 abortions. Now in her 60s, she longs for the children she never had and the grandchildren that could have brought her such joy.
[Read Transcript]
Ericka, Virginia: Right out loud: silent no more.
[Read Transcript]
Felicia, Tennessee: Despite all of her best instincts, 17-year-old Felicia decided an abortion was the best way to deal with her unexpected pregnancy. Twenty years later she was able to open the door to forgiveness.
[Watch Video] [Read Transcript]
Gail, North Carolina: Tea and crackers.
[Read Transcript]
Ginny, Pennsylvania: Ginny conceived a child after being raped by a man from her church and chose to have an abortion that altered the path of her life for more than twenty-three years.
[Read Transcript]
Heather, Florida: Heather’s grandparents always told her that pregnancy while living with them would result in abortion, and they meant it.
[Read Transcript]
HG: I wanted to die.
[Read Transcript]
Holly, Pennsylvania: Forced Abortion
[Read Transcript]
Jami, Alabama
[Read Transcript]
Jeanette: Twenty years after her abortion, Jeanette remembers the path she took that led to abortion and reflects on her journey to healing.
[Read Transcript]
Jen, California: How Planned Parenthood Impacted My Youth
[Read Transcript]
Joan, North Carolina
[Read Transcript]
JoAnn, Missouri
[Watch Video]
Julie, Indiana: Undeserved grace.
[Read Transcript]
JulieAnn, Missouri
[Watch Video]
Karen, Pennsylvania
[Watch Video]
Karen, Virginia: Heart
[Read Transcript]
Kate, South Carolina: Cayleigh Grace
[Read Transcript]
Kathleen, Florida: (3:31)
[Watch Video] [Listen to Audio] [Read Transcript]
Kathleen, Pennsylvania: Meet Jane Marie.
[Read Transcript]
Kathy, Kentucky: No longer suffering in silence.
[Read Transcript]
Kathy, Ohio: Women deserve the truth.
[Read Transcript]
Kelly, Maryland: I was 13 years-old, having a late-term abortion in a strange city
I hope that girl feels worse and worse and that she knows that I and others consider her a murderer on the same level as Ted Bundy and that she ought to be surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly executed after a fair and speedy trial resulting in a murder conviction.
We need to start thinking of moms who murder their children as MURDERERS who are to be tried and upon conviction executed. When we only talk about caring for post-abortive girls and not communicate the need to bring about justice on these murderers we make the violent killing of babies more and more acceptable.
BOTTOM LINE: Let’s start treating and thinking of those who knowingly murder their own children the same way we do Ted Kaczynski or Tim McVeigh who planned out their murders.
Zeke, I think you should leave this forum. You have done nothing but say hurtful and offensive things simply for the purpose of inflaming and getting people riled up. That is no way to be.
This kind of behavior is expected of the pro-abortion side, but not of the pro-life side. I do not consider you pro-life. You are just acting like a hateful, mean, spiteful little person, and I think you should not be here unless you can find a kinder way to express yourself.
MaryKay, could you please post the link to those transcripts? I would be interested in reading and listening to them.
Laura, 9/1, 3:10p, said: “What about all the women who suffer from post-partum depression/psychosis? Should we encourage them to seek treatment, or do we outlaw childbearing?”
Laura, Doug, do you agree there is such a malady as post-partum depression, one so serious mothers should sometimes seek treatment for it?
MK, 9/3, 6:39a: Great information.
MK!-
Do NOT cite “Silent No More” testimonials until you’ve read through the site. some of them are just hilarious; Women who SWEAR they had a gun held on them to abort. One claims that she was raped and named the fetus after her father. One who claims the doctor yelled “It’s trying to get away!” during the abortion. Another claims that her tubes and ovaries were “destroyed by the suction.”
Get out your scorecards, folks!
Count the medical and factual inaccuracies in THIS little “Silent No More” classic testimonial:
Cries of My Heart
By Roxanne Richard
I was in my early 20’s when I went to the ER as I couldn’t keep anything down. I told them I may be pregnant, and I was on the Pill. Before I knew it, I was admitted for observation, given x-rays, and had my stomach pumped for hours. Come morning, I was met with an angry doctor, who sat down, flipped open my chart, and pointed to the red inked circled around “positive” for pregnancy. My doctor strongly suggested that I have an abortion because of what they had done to me the night before. I CHOSE ABORTION.
I drove for three hours, registered at the clinic in Iowa City, and sat by a wild-eyed redhead who tried to reassure me by saying the procedure was simple and quick. It was her sixth abortion. Lying on the bed, the nurse spread my legs, and before I knew it there was an awful sucking noise. I realized the sound was coming out of me, so I started fighting for them to stop. They calmed me down saying “it was nothing,
Bethany, why should Zeke leave the forum? He’s the only consistant right-to-lifer here!
If abortion is baby-murder, then women who hire doctors to do abortions on them are accessories (at least) to baby-murder. Why shouldn’t they be punished for their crime?
Somg, why don’t you leave? How would you treat a pro life patient? Would you slip a little something extra into their IV’s? You are a whacked out psycho. I cannot believe that any hospital would employ you. If I knew who you were, I would report you to that hospital. Death threats are serious. You constantly make them. You have proven to us that you are an unstable creep. I sincerely hope your patients are watching their pillows!
Of course some post abortive women think that they are murderers and should be punished. But really they are just victims of the abortion industry.
I am sick and tired of all this namby pamby treatment of moms who murder their children rationalized by alleged Christian groups and individuals as “being compassionate” or “kind” to them.
These girls aren’t poor victims who were somehow tricked into murdering their children. They know that they are doing something morally wrong when they pay someone to violently slaughter their child. They’re just as aware that they are murdering a person as Tim McVeigh was.
MK I will have a look at above transcripts, thankyou
ok is doing exactly what I just condemned in the previous post. ok is excusing the murderers and lessening their culpability by saying that “they are just victims of the abortion industry”.
Imagine if we said that about Harris & Klebold who murdered those students and teachers @ Columbine. Do you also think of Harris & Klebold as “just victims of the public school system”? It surely had an influence on their thinking and behavior, but if you believe Jesus Christ you know that murder comes from a man’s heart and not some outside source (read all of Matthew 15).
If Harris and Klebold had lived you would hear nicer than God Catholics protesting their execution and promoting their being imprisoned for life – and their food and shelter would be funded by us, the US taxpayers.
When Tim McVeigh was about to be executed there were these profane nuns in Terre Haute who lit candles for each of the victims of the OKC bombing including a candle for McVeigh!
I’d have a hard time even responding to such vile beliefs and actions had Jesus Christ not addressed it directly as He did here in Ezekiel 13:19.
Zeke,
While you call it mamby pamby, we call it diplomacy. If you can’t get people to listen to because you put them on the defensive then you have no chance of changing their hearts or minds. Inflammatory language doesn’t help. There are other websites where this is the modus operandi, but this isn’t one of them.
If you look, you will notice that even hard core pro-choicers are engaging in dialogue with us.
Doug is always asking for proof of the unseen world, and as far as I’m concerned this qualifies as a miracle!
100 years ago, Schizophrenia was not called schizophrenia. 100 years ago autistic kids were locked up and thought retarded. 1000 years ago manic depression was considered posession.
Great analogies.
Another point, approproiate help for women who have trauma after abortion hinges on the syndrome being named.
– A Spurious claim. “The experience of the vast majority of women who have abortions is so positive that it’s not a syndrome.”
Women who find their abortion “so positive” are in the minority.
mk said:
“While you call it mamby pamby, we call it diplomacy.”
Well, Jesus Christ calls it showing mercy to murderers, and He absolutely detests showing mercy to such criminals so that it excuses their actions or makes people feel bad for them.
We need to surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly execute ALL convicted murderers if we are to make such crimes rare.
Deuteronomy 19:21 “Your eye shall not pity: life [shall be] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
We need to express a lot less mercy towards capital criminals.
“Yes – suffering, but some people want to spin the PTSD into a more prevalent thing than what is true.”
The prevelance is such that thousands upon thousands of women and men seek out post abortion counselling each year alone. These are just the ones who have been brave enough to have come forward, the tip of the iceberg.
Bethany, why should Zeke leave the forum? He’s the only consistant right-to-lifer here!
If abortion is baby-murder, then women who hire doctors to do abortions on them are accessories (at least) to baby-murder. Why shouldn’t they be punished for their crime?
SOMG, if you’ll notice, Zeke wasn’t talking about that. He was saying that adulterous women should be executed.
Zeke I replied to your post on my blog. Let me know if I’ve misinterpreted what your question or statement was with posting the link.
I’ll be more than happy to answer anything else you have to say.
Zeke,
Well, Jesus Christ calls it showing mercy to murderers, and He absolutely detests showing mercy to such criminals so that it excuses their actions or makes people feel bad for them.
Ahhhh, that must be why He turned to the criminal hanging next to Him and said He’d see him in heaven that very day…
Hello, what pseudo-Christian cult do you belong to? Stay away from the kool-aid!
FYI mk – The murderous thief that Jesus Christ said would be with Him in paradise was the murderous thief who said “We indeed justly are being executed.”
The bad thief, who went to Hell, said what you encourage capital criminals to say: God get my execution stayed/pardoned!
Jesus Christ did not show mercy to either of those murderous thieves that day. They both died as a result of execution.
Or do you deny this?
QUESTION: What does Bethany do once she’s been defeated in a debate on her blog?
ANSWER: She deletes all of the comments so no one will see it!
Ah, everyone, let’s raise a glass in salute to Zeke, an unyieldingly crass bigot with a hard-on for punishment and an overzealous use of violent retribution passages in the Bible. He systematically has driven away even the people on the pro-life side he supposedly supports, and only gives ammunition to the pro-choice side with his truly idiotic rants. *drinks to Zeke*
And now, a round of premarital relations in his honor!!! (That was a joke, Jill, Bethany, and MK). Although it is funny imagining him going beet-red with indignation over that remark. He’d have me executed, wouldn’t he? LOL. :)
OK, they find the relief at not being pregnant any more “positive”.
Lyssie, Clink! *my glass hitting yours*. :)
Somg, who are you responding to? The voices in your head?
Jesus Christ did not show mercy to either of those murderous thieves that day. They both died as a result of execution.
What do you think regarding the thief as a human being, and giving him comforting words about his arrival in Heaven which would shortly occur? Coldness?
P.S. Zeke, what do you suppose the difference was in the two thieves on the cross? Why did Jesus regard one and not the other, in your opinion?
Bethany: Lyssie, Clink! *my glass hitting yours*. :)
Cenosillicaphobia = fear of an empty glass.
“Yes – suffering, but some people want to spin the PTSD into a more prevalent thing than what is true.”
ok: The prevelance is such that thousands upon thousands of women and men seek out post abortion counselling each year alone. These are just the ones who have been brave enough to have come forward, the tip of the iceberg.
ok, even if true, it’s still more women who have psychological problems, both as a raw number and as a rate, after giving birth. The symptoms in general tend to be more severe as well.
Doug
Jill: Laura, Doug, do you agree there is such a malady as post-partum depression, one so serious mothers should sometimes seek treatment for it?
Jill, yes, and it’s post-traumatic stress too. No argument that women sometimes have the same thing after having abortions. Whether it’s a “syndrome” or not is up to medical observers, I assume based on frequency (and I realize it could be argued and argued….)
Doug
MK: Zeke, While you call it mamby pamby, we call it diplomacy. If you can’t get people to listen to because you put them on the defensive then you have no chance of changing their hearts or minds. Inflammatory language doesn’t help. There are other websites where this is the modus operandi, but this isn’t one of them.
If you look, you will notice that even hard core pro-choicers are engaging in dialogue with us.
Doug is always asking for proof of the unseen world, and as far as I’m concerned this qualifies as a miracle!
MK, Zeke agreed with me, at least to an extent, about Aquinas’ “proofs.” I would not have expected that. Maybe there are miracles.
Doug
Bethany asked me:
“what do you suppose the difference was in the two thieves on the cross? Why did Jesus regard one and not the other, in your opinion?”
Jesus accepted into Paradise the repentant thief precisely because that one recognized that He was being “justly” executed and that Jesus Christ was innocent. He showed some repentance in accepting that his punishment was just. And after that, he asked Christ to remember him when He came into His kingdom.
The bad thief who blasphemed Christ went to Hell because He demanded that if Christ was indeed God then He should use His power to prevent his execution.
Read it.
Luke 23:39-43 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
With that last response I declare VICTORY
Victory of what?
No, you’re wrong. Yes, the thief did recognize he was justly being punished. However, that is not the only reason that Jesus regarded him. The key here is that he repented and trusted by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.