News coverage of September 15 protest
Please alert me to other coverage in comments section.
ABC 7 News (scroll to “Protesters march against opening of abortion clinic”)
Beacon News, which included the Steve Trombley Quote of the Day, “We believe people of good will can differ,” never mind PP’s lying, deception, and fraud.
Chicago Tribune
Daily Herald
Fox News (featuring a shot of our own MK)
[HT: moderator MK; OpenLineBlog]
In addition, Fox Valley Clery for Life and Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood took out two impressive, informative, and striking full page ads in two newspapers this morning, the Beacon News and the Naperville Sun. 121 local clergy members signed the first, as opposed to 9 nonlocal PP faux clergy – 1 an unacknowledged PP board member – who voiced support of PP earlier in the week. Click on ads to see enlarged view….
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Actually, heather, most of the time people say things like, “You’re going to be a mommy!” or “You’re going to have a baby!” Indicating things that will happen in the future.
Whoops…wrong post. This is what I get for posting as soon as I wake up.
Since when have abstinence-only programs been proven effective? The only support for these programs comes from individuals, researchers, and programs that have an ideological stake in the outcome. Stop trying to force everyone else to conform to your world view and to blindly accept your values and morals. Simply because others have different definitions of morality or values than you do does not automatically make their views wrong and immoral.
Enigma, Erin,
stop supporting the killing of unborn babies.
How has PP become effective? Why are they so upset about their new clinic not opening? Has the demand for abortion ON DEMAND increased? If so, we really need to re evaluate abortion. Girls had already booked appointments? That’s disturbing.
jasper- stop being destructive to your own cause.
Jasper,
For starters, they’re not “unborn babies” they’re human fetuses. Secondly, I have never yet changed an opinion simply because someone told me to.
What kind of crappy parents are you?
Read the “Your New Neighbor” ad.
Why might your kids feel a need to go behind your backs?
When my friends and I wanted birth control, the first person we talked to were our mothers. I know of only two girls who got pregnant in their teens, and both told their DADS about it first.
A huge study found that the VAST MAJORITY of young teens seeking abortion discuss it with their parents first.
The issue isn’t whether teens need health care services – they do – but what kind of parent are you that your own children don’t discuss important personal matters with you?
I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that the kids NOT talking to their parents usually had a pretty good reason, ie the parents were a pair of hysterical, emotionally disturbed morons.
Enigma, you said that they are “human fetuses”………….I rest my case.
A human fetus is not a human baby.
Yes, it is. What else could it be?
Um…a fetus?
Holy Mother, we pray to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart for all mothers and all unborn children that they may have life here on earth and by the most Precious Blood shed by your Son that they may have eternal life with Him in heaven. We also pray to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart for all abortionists and all abortion supporters that they may be converted and accept your Son, Jesus Christ, as their Lord and Savior. Defend all of your children in the battle against Satan and all of the evil spirits in this present darkness.
jasper, amen.
Jasper,
Amen.
Erin,
And what is the definition of a human fetus?
Laura,
For someone who has never had any children, you sure have a lot of opinions on what makes a good parent!
“What kind of crappy parents are you?”
WOW, that coming from someone who doesn’t have the guts to have kids….
Erin,
Just curious, but do you think you have crappy parents? Hal, Doug…anyone?
MK,
Haha, apparently we had the same thought at the same time..jinks!
doh! i’m annonymous.
I have wonderful parents.
Erin, Just curious, but do you think you have crappy parents? Hal, Doug…anyone?
I have great parents. Loving, honest, wise, and tolerant.
Doug
“Erin,
And what is the definition of a human fetus?”
A blueberry named after a demoness.
Erin,
Speaking of parents, I don’t know if you’ve ever posted this, I may have missed it, but do your folks know about the termination? If they do, what was their reaction? If they do not, what do you think their reaction would have been? And why were they not told?
Carder,
I was just going to ask that!
And I can’t help but wonder what Hal and Erin mean by “wonderful” parents…
Rosie,
Great minds…
“And I can’t help but wonder what Hal and Erin mean by “wonderful” parents…”
I’ll take a stab at it and would gather they mean open-minded, tolerant, non-judgemental, strong values, that sort of thing. The stuff that pro-choice is made of.
And I mean that respectfully. Don’t want to bash anyone’s mom and pop.
Am I right guys?
Doesn’t anyone read the dictionary anymore?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby
Baby (5) – A human fetus.
Therefore, Planned Parenthood kills babies! Duh!
I can’t believe how many times the other side tries to argue otherwise.
Jasper,
Keep posting the intercessions. It drives You-Know-Who infernally crazy!
JMJ
Peace.
“I’ll take a stab at it and would gather they mean open-minded, tolerant, non-judgemental, strong values, that sort of thing. The stuff that pro-choice is made of.”
@Carder: My parents, particularly my mother, are not open-minded, not terribly tolerant and most DEFINITELY not non-judgmental. They never expressed their political opinions, abortion and the like was NEVER discussed growing up. My parents really only cared about authority and control. THEY were the adults therefore THEY were in charge. THEY could do what they wanted and the kids had to do as we were told or face the consequences. It got to the point that you learn to just always do as you’re told and to NEVER question ANYTHING, which can be very disadvantageous in the long run.
They have no idea how I became the person I am as I’m definitely an anomaly in the Begeman/Kuehl gene pool.
WOW, that coming from someone who doesn’t have the guts to have kids….
Posted by: Anonymous at September 16, 2007 3:06 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn’t take guts, just a functional unit.
Rae,
I can see how the anomaly developed. What we’re curious to know is what the criteria is according to the aforementioned posters for “wonderful” parents. But since you’ve responded on your behalf, would you call your folks wonderful?
Laura,
It doesn’t take guts, just a functional unit.
As you point out so often, that is only what it takes to gestate a fetus…
Parenting is a whole other ballgame…one I do not think you are qualified to comment on.
@Carder: They are “wonderful” to an extent. I was always well taken care of, physically. My dad worked a good job at 3M, my mom was a home-maker for years. They loved me and cared for me and still do. Emotionally/mentally, they could have done better, especially my mom. She was always hypercritical, I could never do anything right, never good enough, etc.
They are pretty good parents, but I wouldn’t call them “wonderful”, just as I don’t think they would consider me a “wonderful” daughter. They did the best they could, and as much as I disagree with some of their parenting methods, it was all they knew how to do considering how they were raised.
Rae,
You often say that you will never be able to have children. Can I ask why?
” I can see how the anomaly developed. ”
@Carder: Care to elaborate as to how you think said anomaly developed? If you think it is because my parents weren’t strict enough, hoo-boy, that is el-incorrecto. :-)
Rae,
I think she means that as a way to counter their strictness you went the opposite way and believe everything they don’t and don’t believe anything they do…
Parenting is a whole other ballgame…one I do not think you are qualified to comment on.
Posted by: mk at September 16, 2007 4:02 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Raising kids who are afraid to discuss intimate matters with you is good parenting?
Raising kids who can’t come to you with a personal crisis is good parenting?
You’re right, I’m no expert on parenting, but I can smell failure at 100 yards and I believe that alienating your own children would meet the definition of failure.
@MK: But that’s not the case. I understand what my parents tried to do, just now how they went about it. Everything they did was for my own good, yes, but the way they did it made it not seem that way. I don’t think I deliberately went anti- to whatever they do, in fact I agree with them on more things than I disagree (when I do weedle out their real opinions on things…).
Rae,
I didn’t mean you did it purposely, just that kids tend to do the opposite of what their parents want them to do…at least when they are teens/young adults and especially when the parents are controlling.
In a way, it’s a good thing, because you need to come to conclusions on your own, even if they are the same conclusions your parents were trying to pound into.
I did it. My kids are doing it. I think it’s all part of cutting th apron strings. No?
@Carder and MK: I know I made it seem like my parents are totally opposite of me, and to an extent they are. However, I’m not going to lie and say I’m completely non-judgmental, because I am. I try not to be, but I totally fail at that aspect. I try to be open-minded, but somethings I can’t wrap my brain around. I try to be tolerant, but there are somethings I cannot tolerate (laziness and stupidity are the main things).
See? Now that doesn’t sound very “socialist/liberal” does it?
“Raising kids who are afraid to discuss intimate matters with you is good parenting?
Raising kids who can’t come to you with a personal crisis is good parenting?”
Recall Holly what’s-her-name parents letter on another thread, how they are devastated about her daughter’s death by RU-486 and how it could have been prevented. Judging by the tone and content, I didn’t get the impression they failed at parenting.
Lots of blame to go around on that one. I’ll start with the 24 yr.old dummy who got her pregnant…
Laura –
“A huge study found that the VAST MAJORITY of young teens seeking abortion discuss it with their parents first.”
If this is the “huge” study I am thinking of, since you didn’t cite your source I can only guess, it was defunked pretty quickly. It seems they only asked teens in states that have parental notification laws.
There was another study, not huge though, that said the same thing. They just had teens fill out a questionaire and the question was “Do you tell your parents about your sexual activities.” That somehow came out in the study that teens tell parents about their abortions.
“Raising kids who are afraid to discuss intimate matters with you is good parenting?
Raising kids who can’t come to you with a personal crisis is good parenting?”
Curious – why am I a bad parent because I want to know if my daughter gets an abortion? I would want to know so I could properly care for her, isn’t that being a good parent?
Laura,
You’re right, I’m no expert on parenting,
See, we agree on something.
And while this might shock you, I agree that parents that make it impossible to come to them are not doing such a great job…but parenting is tough. And there are no pat answers. The one answer that is always wrong however is to make something as life altering and final as abortion, available to kids that aren’t old enough to drive, drink, vote, get their ears pierced or check out books from the adult section of the library without their parents permission.
Surely, you can see the wisdom in not encouraging children to sneak behind their parents backs?
About the news coverage,
I find it so odd to see the folks up there in long sleeves already. We’re still in the 90’s down here and wiping off some major sweat! Won’t see a cool spell till Octover. And even then it will still be hot during the day!
Laura,
Do you also advocate buying alcohol for minors because, hey, they are going to do it anyway and if they can’t get their parents to buy it for them then they should find an adult willing to “be there for them?”
Carder,
About the news coverage,
I find it so odd to see the folks up there in long sleeves already. We’re still in the 90’s down here and wiping off some major sweat! Won’t see a cool spell till Octover. And even then it will still be hot during the day!
Bite me.
Rae –
“However, I’m not going to lie and say I’m completely non-judgmental, because I am. I try not to be, but I totally fail at that aspect. I try to be open-minded, but somethings I can’t wrap my brain around. I try to be tolerant, but there are somethings I cannot tolerate ”
Do you have any idea how good of a person you are? By just admitting your ‘failures’ you have shown more wisdom than most people.
MK to Carder:
“Bite me.”
I second that!
Prop. 85 research from last year:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Most Teens Voluntarily Involve Their Parents in Their Abortion Decision
A majority of minors who have abortions do so with at least one parent’s knowledge. Based on a national survey of more than 1,500 unmarried minors having abortions in states without parental involvement laws, 61% of young women discussed the decision to have an abortion with at least one of their parents. The younger the teen, the more likely she was to have voluntarily discussed the abortion with her parent. In fact, 90% of minors under 15 involved a parent in their decision to have an abortion. A majority of teens who did not talk to a parent turned to another trusted adult. (Stanley K. Henshaw and Kathryn Kost, “Parental Involvement In Minors’ Abortion Decisions,” 24 Family Planning Perspectives 196, 200 (1992).)
Most Teens Who Do Not Involve a Parent Have Very Good Reasons for Not Doing So
The minority of teens who do not voluntarily consult a parent generally have good reasons not to. Many come from families where such an announcement would only exacerbate an already volatile or dysfunctional family situation. One study showed that 22% of teens who did not tell a parent about their abortion decision feared that, if they told their parents, they would be kicked out of the house. More than 8% feared that they would be physically abused because their parents had beaten them before. Of those who did not tell a parent, 12% did not live with either parent and 14% had parents who abused drugs or alcohol. (Henshaw & Kost.)
Experience shows that teens’ fears are well-founded. For example, one of the very first teens who was forced to notify a parent under Colorado’s parental notice law was kicked out of her home when her mother learned of the pregnancy. Her mother took the money the teen had saved for the abortion and threatened to disown her if she went through with the procedure. When the teen called the clinic to reschedule her appointment, she was living in a friend’s car. Far from strengthening her family and helping her make an informed decision, the law ruined her relationship with her mother and left her homeless with an unwanted pregnancy. Her experience is far from unique.
Governmental Intrusion into Family Relationships Doesn’t Create Stronger Families
For teens who feel they cannot safely turn to their parents, government coercion doesn’t change anything. There is no evidence that mandating parental involvement actually increases the rate at which teens tell their parents about their pregnancies and planned abortions. (Robert Wm. Blum, et al., “The Impact of a Parental Notification Law on Adolescent Abortion Decision-Making,” 77 American Journal of Public Health 619, 620 (1987).) As the New Jersey Supreme Court found when it held that state’s parental notice law unconstitutional, a law “cannot transform a household with poor lines of communication into a paradigm of the perfect American family.” (Planned Parenthood v. Farmer, 762 A.2d 620, 637 (N.J. 2000).)
Mandating Parental Involvement Jeopardizes Teenagers’ Health
Teens already are more likely than older women to have later abortions, and restricting teens’ access to abortion only causes further delays. For example, following enactment of Missouri’s parental consent law, the proportion of second-trimester abortions among minors increased by 17%. (AGI calculations based on data from Vicky Howell Pierson, “Missouri’s Parental Consent Law and Teen Pregnancy Outcomes,” 22 Women and Health 47, 53 (1995).) While abortion is safer than childbirth, later abortions entail more medical risks and are more difficult to obtain because they are more expensive and fewer doctors perform them.
In addition, because mandating parental involvement in a teen’s abortion decision can prevent teens from getting the abortions they want, it can lead to teens suffering the physical, emotional, educational, economic, and social costs of teenage childbearing.
The Leading Medical Groups Oppose Mandating Parental Involvement
Because these laws put teens’ health and safety at risk and do not create better families, all of the major medical organizations, including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Society for Adolescent Medicine, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the American Public Health Association, oppose laws mandating parental involvement in minors’ abortion decisions.
These Laws Unfairly Single Out Those Pregnant Teens Who Choose Abortion
The risks of delayed and denied health care far outweigh the costs of permitting teens to consent on their own to abortion services. Every state in the nation has recognized this fact when it comes to teens who choose to continue their pregnancies and have children. For example, no state requires a young woman to obtain parental consent for prenatal care and delivery services; no state requires parents to be notified of their daughter’s positive pregnancy test; all but five states allow a minor to place her child for adoption without parental involvement; and all states allow adolescents to consent to treatment for sexually transmitted diseases. It is only if the teen chooses to have an abortion that states seek to require parental involvement. If teenagers can consent on their own to services related to childbirth — and even to delivery by cesarean section, a far more dangerous procedure than abortion — there can be no health-related reason for denying them the right to consent on their own to abortion. (Heather Boonstra and Elizabeth Nash, “Minors and the Right to Consent to Health Care” 3 The Guttmacher Report on Public Policy 4, 6-7 (Aug. 2000).)
Want some more bites?
Only seen snow twice in my life, only seen a “true” autumn once. In Bloomington, IN.
So funny. I was there in October of ’94 and it felt like Christmas!
Carder can have her 90 degree weather. I’m loving the 60 degree weather we’re having in Minnesota right now…
Rae,
However, I’m not going to lie and say I’m completely non-judgmental, because I am. I try not to be, but I totally fail at that aspect. I try to be open-minded, but somethings I can’t wrap my brain around. I try to be tolerant, but there are somethings I cannot tolerate (laziness and stupidity are the main things).
Being judgmental has gotten a bad rap. I’m hugely judgmental and I make no apologies. I judge which bananas look fresh, which people to hang out with, which music is appropriate for my kids, what language I’ll tolerate, what clothes are inappropriate, what I consider obscene, which breed of dog I like…
We have to make judgments. We’d die if we didn’t. And yes, I mean judgments about people too. I can’t imagine a world where EVERYTHING was tolerated, although lately I’m beginning to think I live in a world just like that.
There is a difference between being judgmental and condemning. That we shouldn’t do. But judging? Bring on the gavel!
Rae,
Shut up.
Carder,
Bite me again.
I HATE BEING COLD!!! and anything under 82 is COLD!
Laura,
So in a nutshell, you’re opposed to parents being informed of a teenager’s decision to have an abortion? Even if the parent is responsible for whatever happens to the minor?
“I’m loving the 60 degree weather we’re having in Minnesota right now…”
Wish I could be there.
Surely, you can see the wisdom in not encouraging children to sneak behind their parents backs?
Posted by: mk at September 16, 2007 4:25 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Most Teens Who Do Not Involve a Parent Have Very Good Reasons for Not Doing So
The minority of teens who do not voluntarily consult a parent generally have good reasons not to. Many come from families where such an announcement would only exacerbate an already volatile or dysfunctional family situation. One study showed that 22% of teens who did not tell a parent about their abortion decision feared that, if they told their parents, they would be kicked out of the house. More than 8% feared that they would be physically abused because their parents had beaten them before. Of those who did not tell a parent, 12% did not live with either parent and 14% had parents who abused drugs or alcohol. (Henshaw & Kost.)
Experience shows that teens’ fears are well-founded. For example, one of the very first teens who was forced to notify a parent under Colorado’s parental notice law was kicked out of her home when her mother learned of the pregnancy. Her mother took the money the teen had saved for the abortion and threatened to disown her if she went through with the procedure. When the teen called the clinic to reschedule her appointment, she was living in a friend’s car. Far from strengthening her family and helping her make an informed decision, the law ruined her relationship with her mother and left her homeless with an unwanted pregnancy. Her experience is far from unique.”
“The Leading Medical Groups Oppose Mandating Parental Involvement
Because these laws put teens’ health and safety at risk and do not create better families, all of the major medical organizations, including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Society for Adolescent Medicine, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the American Public Health Association, oppose laws mandating parental involvement in minors’ abortion decisions.”
Laura,
So you’re saying give the kids a way to eliminate the situation that will make their parents angry, thereby allowing them to continue the behavior that got them into said situation?
Let them sneak an abortion, so they continue to have sex behind their parents backs (as well as God knows what else, which they have no business doing when they aren’t even old enough see an “R” movie), and send them back to the same homes where 8% have been physically abused, 22% live in fear of being thrown out for getting pregnant, 14% have parents that abuse drugs and alcohol, and 12% don’t even live with a parent.
Oh yeah, that makes much more sense. Then we can start the cycle all over again, and you and I can have this conversation all over again…
Laura –
Nope – not the study I was thinking of. I thought you were talking about a recent study. The one you have is from 2000. It is on the Guttmatcher website. Also its on the ACLU website from an article 4/1/2001
http://www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/abortion/16388res20010401.html
Problem: Only 1,500 unmarried minors were surveyed nationwide. Even though this is a correct form of sampling it is not reliable. I cannot find any information as to how they picked which cities and how they picked which minors. I’ll look that up after kids go to bed. (Guttmatcher is usually very good at that bit of info, just didn’t have time to truly search.)
@MK: Perhaps I wasn’t clear what I meant about judgmental. I mean I judge people when I shouldn’t. Like, if somebody tells me they study something like geography or psychology, I think they’re lazy or stupid and just trying to coast through school as opposed to actually trying because I consider those to be “loser” majors. I shouldn’t consider those majors to be “loser” majors, but I do and I feel bad about that.
Does that make a bit more sense?
Rae,
Yes, but perhaps you are really just saying that you respect people and find them more interesting when they study more challenging subjects…
I mean I have more respect “intellectually” for a rocket scientist than I do for a psychic, but that doesn’t mean I think one is a better person than the other. Does that make sense?
When I hear someone got a football scholarship, I think, “probably gonna have to major in hair combing”.
So I know what you mean, but maybe the person you shouldn’t be judging so harshly, is you? Now if you throw rocks at people that major in Psychology, that would be different story. You should only throw rocks at people that major in statistics.
Psst, Rae,
Let’s see how long it take Val to throw something at me…
Heh. I was going to do a psychology major because I knew it would be easy and I would be able to get a 4.0 if I did it. But my dad said he wasn’t fundin’ no psych major because he knew it would be “too easy” or whatever. So a microbiology major I became. :)
I love psychology, but it really isn’t a difficult area of study in general. In some ways psychology annoys me because you get all these li’l undergrad psych majors walkin’ around “diagnosing” people. In fact, it happened to me yesterday (annooooyyyiiiing).
Blah! So anyway, back to the regularly scheduled debate about parent involvement and abortion:
PL: PARENTS NEED TO KNOW!
PC: NO THEY DON’T BECAUSE THEY SUCK ANYWAY!
PL: INVOLVED PARENTS PREVENT ABORTIONS!
PC: EVEN WITH INVOLVED PARENTS, ABORTIONS WILL HAPPEN ANYWAY!
*both sides explodey from t3h rh3t0rix.*
Oh yeah, that makes much more sense. Then we can start the cycle all over again, and you and I can have this conversation all over again…
Posted by: mk at September 16, 2007 4:58 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
…Or, deny them an abortion and force them to create another victim to drag into that dysfunctional mess.
Rae,
Exactly. Involved parents/not involved parents. Rotten teens/good teens. Oatmeal cookies/chocolate chip. Lemmings/mullets.
It doesn’t matter. Abortion is still taking the life of another human being and that is wrong no matter what kind of pizza you order. (that argument hasn’t been made before has it? So it doesn’t qualify as rhetoric, right?)
…Or, deny them an abortion and force them to create another victim to drag into that dysfunctional mess.
Hey, my solution isn’t perfect, but nobody dies.
I think it’s presumptuous to say nobody dies, MK.
Have you seen the teen suicide rate? Highest it’s been in decades. Most of those committing suicide are women as well. I don’t want to say that all suicides are a result of bad parenting, but I do believe parenting has a factor in the outcome of a child’s demeanor.
1. Forcing a child to have a child is not going to make a mother/adult out of anyone. Example: My cousin, now 23, has a six year old child (pregnant at 16) who lives with his aunt and uncle because my cousin is too immature to take care of him. She parties all the time, drinks, does drugs, as does his father, and her son is largely neglected. Sure, he could grow up to be perfectly happy, but studies prove otherwise.
2. Part of the reason I’m pro-choice is because I love children. Yes, you may think that doesn’t make any sense, but I don’t believe any child should grow up in an abusive home, or one where the child does not feel wanted. And yes, a child DOES know when they were/are not wanted. Forcing someone to have a child does not mean they will be a good parent, and it’s unfair to a child to be raised that way. Yes, there is adoption, I agree, and I do prefer adoption over abortion. But, like earlier posts mentioned, the mother’s safety can also be endangered, which isn’t good for her or the child she’s carrying.
3. Forcing women to have a child they don’t want will only force the cycle of abuse to continue. Why is the teen suicide rate so high? Poor homes, perhaps?
What really angers me about people who are pro-life is that they pretend everything is going to be okay for both the mother and the child. Many times, it is not. Even adoption is difficult and emotionally charged. You’re okay with putting your dog to sleep so that it won’t feel pain anymore, but what about people?
@MK: Nope, I don’t think pizza has yet to be used in describing how abortion is immoral no matter what (though in select cases I think the level of its immorality decreases or ceases: mother’s life as one death is better than two).
*cough*
Jasper,
What is the point of telling someone who doesn’t believe in God that you’re praying for them? It’s extremely condescending and offensive. It implies that they lack some state of grace which you possess and that they should hope to attain. It’s actually far more likely to drive someone away than to encourage them to convert.
If your God really was everything that you say I never would have turned away.
What really angers me about people who are pro-life is that they pretend everything is going to be okay for both the mother and the child.
What really angers me about pro choicers is that they pretend everything is going to be okay for the mother after an abortion…
Teen suicide is a real problem. It’s not an either or. The difference is, a teen might kill themselves. Whereas in an abortion, at least one person is guaranteed to die.
Abortion is a cheap, sleezy way to end or deal with a very real problem…
The abortion changes nothing. But somebody ALWAYS dies.
Lets pretend for just a moment that there was absolutely no possible physical way to perform an abortion. Just couldn’t be done. No morals involved. Just scientifically, medically impossible.
How would you deal with all the above problems that you just named?
Rae,
C’mon now, we’ve discussed the mothers life before. Us catholics don’t consider that an abortion, because of the intent issue…if that’s the only thing holding you back from being full out pro-life, then stop worrying. All you have to do is come back to the Catholic church, and you’ll be considered pro-life…
*cough,cough*
MK-Mass sterilisation.
@MK:
*coughcough*
I have no interest in being Catholic again, I disagree with them on more things than I agree with them.
*cough*
:D
Enigma,
You honestly find someone praying for you offensive?
I mean if he was praying to a voodoo God so that you’d get headlice, I could understand…but praying so that you could find joy and peace in your life?
What’s the big deal. Would it bother you if he was making sacrifices to the “Giant Lightbulb God”? Or is it only because it’s the God of the Christians that he is invoking?
Who is anonymous?
Rae,
You might be surprised to find that you agree with more than you think. The church is against capital punishment, the war in Iraq, abortion…She’s for peace, and social justice, feeding the poor, visiting the sick, befriending the lonely, helping the helpless…not saying everyone in the church does these things, but that’s what she stands for.
Bishop Sheen says: People don’t really hate the Catholic Church. They hate what they think the Catholic Church is.
Sorry, that’s me.
Laura,
If a teen truly fears for her safety, she can contact a social service agency and get the protection she needs. If she comes from an abusive home, what service do you perform by aborting her and sending her back into an abusive situation?
By the way, pro-lifers were instrumental in our state in allowing teens to seek shelter in mothers and infants homes if they are homeless, have any reason to fear for their safety, or have been thrown out of their homes. Parents are notified as to where they are. Certainly if a teen is in such a volatile family situation, help from a social service agency is long overdue.
Teens have good reason not to inform parents of an abortion? How about teens who have good reason not to inform parents they are in trouble with the law? Should police officers say nothing?
What about teens who have good reason to fear teachers informing parents of bad grades or troubling behavior in school? Should it be a teens’option not to have the parents informed?
By the way Laura, if that teen shows up in the emergency room with complications from “safe legal” abortion, guess what? Parents HAVE to be notified, accurately informed of what happened, and give their consent for treatment. Its not far fetched, I’ve seen it happen.
MK,
“You honestly find someone praying for you offensive?”
No. I find someone telling me that he/she is going to pray for me offensive for the reasons that I have already listed.
“I mean if he was praying to a voodoo God so that you’d get headlice, I could understand…but praying so that you could find joy and peace in your life?”
It is offensive for everything that it implies. Besides, he isn’t praying for me to find peace and joy in my life. He’s praying for me to find what he defines as peace and joy in my life. My definition happens to be very different.
“What’s the big deal. Would it bother you if he was making sacrifices to the “Giant Lightbulb God”? Or is it only because it’s the God of the Christians that he is invoking?”
It bothers me when anyone implies that they are somehow better or more worthy than me simply because they hold a set of beliefs which I shun.
I just don’t think some of you realize how very young 14, 15 and 16 year olds really are.
Maturation happens when it happens. Granted, physically, a girls body is ready for sex at puberty, but in todays society, it is a rare, rare girl that is ready emotionally for a sexual relationship. Proof? If she gets pregnant, she is in no position to deal with it. She can’t work, she’s still in high school, she can’t drive…c’mon…ready for sex? I don’t think so.
We’re not talking parental notification for 20 year olds. We’re talking children. Girls who are still playing with their magic 8 balls, and listening to the Cheetah Girls…
Lets pretend for just a moment that there was absolutely no possible physical way to perform an abortion. Just couldn’t be done. No morals involved. Just scientifically, medically impossible.
How would you deal with all the above problems that you just named?
Posted by: mk at September 16, 2007 6:04 PM
………………….
Commit suicide? In your scenario would all dead conceptii simply vanish? In your scenario there would be a lot of dead women from carrying dead and rotting fetii around.
Enigma,
Perhaps he doesn’t think he is “better” than you, just “better off” than you are. And he wishes good things for you. If he was forcing you to think the way he does, I could see your point. But what difference does it make if he expresses his desire, (through prayer to a God that you don’t believe in), for you to have what he believes would be good for you? Why does that offend? I just don’t get it.
I do not believe in the Hindu gods, but if a Hindu told me they were going to burn incense to them so that I could have happiness, it wouldn’t bother me at all. Because I think they are praying to thin air. If however they were praying to Satan, I’d be very upset, because I believe in Satan.
You use the word “shun”…does this mean that you are a believer that rejects what she believes to be true? Cuz that would make more sense.
Edyt,
Its been theorized that the teen suicide rate may be due to the fact our children have had it too good. Yes you read that right. Children in the past had far more difficult lives, took nothing for granted, and were able to handle disappointment, loss, and heartbreak. Loss of loved ones and friends was part of life. Our children have been largely sheltered from life’s difficulties and heartaches and are unprepared when they happen. They aren’t supposed to happen! That’s just a theory I read, not my personal opinion, though I think it does make some sense.
Laura,
Commit suicide? In your scenario would all dead conceptii simply vanish? In your scenario there would be a lot of dead women from carrying dead and rotting fetii around.
Call me stupid, (again), but I have no idea what you are trying to say…
Women would be walking around with dead babies in them, why?
@MK: I support gay marriage, which is a “no-no”. I also support the use of contraceptives, another “no-no”. My opinion may or may not change on the use of contraceptives in the future, but my opinion on gay marriage will not change.
MK,
“You use the word “shun”…does this mean that you are a believer that rejects what she believes to be true? Cuz that would make more sense.”
No, it means that I used to believe and that now I avoid religion at all costs because it brings nothing but pain and false comfort that cannot endure.
Mary,
I was just having this conversation with my son.
I think there is MUCH truth there. They also don’t understand what it means to “wait” for things. Everything must happen now. Immediate gratification.
So they don’t learn how to set goals and reach them.
They have a sense of “entitlement” and don’t quite know how to handle it when they don’t get everything they want when they want it!
It carries into adulthood too. Look at credit card debt.
I think it leaves them feeling empty, without purpose. Like they are just filling in the hours without a nobler cause.
How many times have young people said “I’m bored”.
Rae,
You do realize that the reason the church frowns on gay marriage is multifaceted and based on sound reasons, but that the single most important reason is that it is not “good” for the people entering the marriage. And the church honestly desires that which is best for it’s members.
I also think that if it wasn’t called marriage, you wouldn’t get so much condemnation of it. Marriage in the church is a “sacrament”…a covenant. If homosexuals were calling it civil unions, the church, while not happy, would probably just chalk it up to all the other things of the world. It’s precisely because the term “marriage” is being used.
We don’t want to force our beliefs on the secular world. We want our beliefs shared, but not forced.
This would be in direct contradiction to what we were told by God, that all men have free will.
The only reason we fight to end abortion is because a life is involved.
Enough tho. I just wanted you to understand that you might not really understand the whys of everything the church does. I think the protestant churches tend to speak out against homosexual unions more the the CC does. Not that we approve, but we recognize that, in this case, where no lives are being taken, it is truly the choice/free will of the individuals involved.
Children have had it too good?
Sure, maybe some of them. Maybe I don’t see it from that point of view because I’ve been working 2 jobs since I was 14 just to get by, go to college, get a better job and try to pay off loans…. While some people may be part of the “privileged” upper class, the middle class is slowly dripping into poverty with the lower class.
Yes, I’ve been lucky to have some of the things I have, but for the most part, I’ve earned the right to be as fortunate as I am now. (Even though I’m still technically making less than the poverty line) I can fully relate to wanting to end life just because it’s too difficult and there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel.
I think there are a number of good, valid reasons why a person would not want to be part of this population and none of those reasons are because their life is so good they can’t handle it.
Enigma,
No, it means that I used to believe and that now I avoid religion at all costs because it brings nothing but pain and false comfort that cannot endure.
I don’t know what church you were involved with, but man, that doesn’t like any Christian Faith I know of.
You are very cryptic when you talk about your experiences with religion, so it’s very hard to know where you’re coming from. I mean, if you were involved with some freaky out there cult, or whether you did something and now you feel that you’ve been rejected by your church…it all depends on what you mean by “religion brought you nothing but pain”…
I wish I could help. I’d tell you I’d pray for you but I’m afraid you throw something at me…lol.
Really, tho, I’m so sorry for whatever happened to you. It obviously hurt you very much. I wish I knew what to say or how to help.
Edyt,
Sometimes the feeling that there is “no purpose” to your life is as great a cause for despair as having to work too hard for everything. Neither is healthy. Either can lead to feelings of hopelessness. And both are rampant in our society.
Poverty can actually make you stronger. All adversity can. But no adversity makes you weak.
You know, MK, it’s not hard to understand why so many people are mistrustful of Christians. I mean, I was raised in a Christian (protestant) faith, and until I moved to Chicago, I thought people were generally spiteful, judgmental, harsh and cruel. I have been discriminated against, punished to extreme degrees for minor mishaps, and shunned by family members for my so-called “radical” beliefs.
All this coming from what people say is a “loving” faith. I have tattoos and piercings and no atheist has ever told me I was a bad person for them. A Christian, however, spat at me and said I was going to hell for desecrating my body.
I also have a few friends who are homosexual and it breaks my heart to see them hurting because of being disowned by religious family members and friends.
My boyfriend has also been the victim of hate crimes, all by people claiming to be religious, even though nothing he does is harmful to others.
I don’t associate with people who hurt others, who say nasty things, who disown family members. I believe in standing up for what you believe in, yes, but there are many ways to do so without causing physical or emotional harm.
I don’t associate with people who hurt others, who say nasty things, who disown family members. I believe in standing up for what you believe in, yes, but there are many ways to do so without causing physical or emotional harm
But that’s like throwing out the baby with the bath water…
Pretend there are no other people in the world except you. And God. The relationship you have with Him is all that matters.
If other people are messed up in His name, then that’s their problem. Look at our friend Zeke.
She is so over the top that she makes me want to run screaming, and I’m a devout Catholic!
You can’t judge God, Jesus and faith based on how other people are expressing it.
Remember, that just like you are on your own personal journey, so are they. They may have bought into the whole faith thing, but that doesn’t mean they have mastered it.
That’s why we say we are “practicing” Catholics.
As in still practicing, hoping one day to get it right.
You want a good example of what all Christians should strive to be like? Look no further than this site. Bethany, John McDonell, Val… These are people that are not condemning you. These, in my opinion, are beautiful examples of what Christians should be! But just like you aren’t a “perfect” atheist, cuz you’re still learning and changing, we aren’t all perfect Christians, cuz we’re all learning and changing.
Your relationship should not be with other Christians. It should be with Him. Trust me, anyone that is misrepresenting Him, with be dealt with!
Okay,
Too much theology for one night.
Edyt, Enigma, Rae,
You all have my email…I’m here anytime you want to talk privately. Rae will attest that what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
Good night,
MK
Edyt,
Certainly there are exceptions, but compared to the lives our ancestors had, yes, we definitely have it better and our children today, there are exceptions, have no concept of losing numerous family members, (a common occurence in epidemics), going hungry, living through war and deprivation,(like the children of Darfur) or living as second class citizens. By this I mean the brutal segregation of the early south.
What we call poverty is undreamed of luxury to millions around the world. Children in other cultures are not coddled every time they scrape a knee. Heck, life is difficult and painful and you better learn that early.
Yes Edyt, overall our children have it good.
Whoa, are you kidding, Mary? Do you even READ the news? People are living sick because they can’t afford health care. CHILDREN being shot every day by gangs. Death toll in Iraq, going up. Deprivation? Have you even taken a glance at the status of the economy?
No concept of losing family members – hardly. My mother got leukemia when I was a teen. Fortunately, she lived after 5 years of being in and out of the hospital, but my best friend’s mother didn’t. My boyfriend’s uncle committed suicide. Nearly everyone I know has experienced loss. You cannot say we don’t understand loss. Death is not foreign to anyone.
Going hungry? Oh please, every day I worry whether or not I’ll be able to afford both rent and food. College students who don’t have the luxury of being provided for by their parents are paying way more than they can afford just to receive an education. The whole Freshman 15 thing? Yeah, I weigh less now than I did in high school.
I am a second class citizen. Don’t try to tell me I don’t know what it’s like. Plenty of other people know what I’m talking about as well.
Sure, we can’t compare to some of the people around the world, but you can’t say that people don’t struggle. As a journalist, every day I talk to people who are struggling with survival. Maybe we have the Internet now, but how does that solve the lack of money for food, clothing, rent? A few weeks ago I spoke with some homeless children about how they couldn’t go to school because they couldn’t afford uniforms! (Which, btw, is illegal for a school to do)
People suffer, Mary. Who coddles the parents whose 12 year old was shot by another 12 year old?
The world we live in is not the same as it was, but it is still a very dangerous, sad place.
Edyt,
What I’ve found helpful in the course of trying to “deal” with life and all is reading up on the saints. With all certainty, there is not one human situation that hasn’t been experienced on this planet that a saint (by that I mean canonized or beatified) who hasn’t been there, done that. Even if we were to overlook the faith aspect of their characters, their lives make such a good read and profound food for thought.
So many of these holy men and women could have/should have called it quits when they had the chance. I suppose the difference between them and me is that they did not despair, while I’m still *practicing* as MK grandly put it.
Knowing that there were saints who were at one time murderers, executioners, prostitutes, child abusers, alcoholics, bigots, cowards of all shapes and sizes, liars, thieves, uneducated, scholarly, atheists, agnostics,you name it…gives me hope to say the least.
Mary,
Thank God for you and the medical voice of reason. While the rest of us can rant, you’ve got the solidness to shut us up.
Respectfully, of course.
Edyt,
I don’t live in any fantasy world, I’m well aware of life’s difficulties. My own has not been idyllic.
Visit a third world country Edyt and you’ll see what I mean by poverty. People live and die in the streets. People live in shanties, children beg in the streets. People here don’t have health care? Good lord, I spent one week in a third world hospital where patients were lucky to have sheets on their beds, which they usually shared with another patient, and women walked in off the street to deliver. Prenatal care? Don’t make me laugh. Oh, and if the women weren’t quite ready to deliver, they could go walk around in the parking lot for a while. Or another country where women delivered babies on dirt floors and children literally had nothing to wear.
About losing family members, I meant en masse. Disease and poor living conditions could mean you losing parents, siblings, friends, cousins one after the other. People had several children just to ensure that any would survive. I’m happy to hear your mother survived and I wish her continued good health. In some third world country or in an earlier era, she wouldn’t have had a prayer. I also lost a parent at an early age. Yes Edyt we suffer losses, but no where near on the scale our ancestors did and certainly nothing like what occurs today in poorer countries.
To give you an example, we never heard of grief counselling when I was growing up. People died, you grieved and moved on, that was life.
You worry about rent and food but do you live in a shack with a dozen other people? Do you beg on the street? Obviously you have a computer and you are receiving an education. Kudos to you for working hard and sacrificing for that education. I know what you mean by weight loss. I suffered plenty of stress, scraped a lot of pennies, and ate sparse lunches while trying to get through a post graduate course. Yes, I worried plenty about where the rent would come from. I picked up lots of extra work hours and ran myself raggard. I can empathize.
You at least have the opportunity for an education, something unheard of to West African children who stand in the street begging for pencils so they can attend school. These children, unlike ours, cannot take education for granted.
Second class citizen? Oh please Edyt. Are you told what stores you can’t enter, what restaurants you can’t eat at, and what water fountains you can’t drink out of? Do you live in terror of klansmen burning down your residence, lynching, or killing you? Did people throw rocks in your face, spit at and curse you when you decided to obtain an education at the college of your choice? Tell a black person who lived in the Jim Crow south about your second class citizenship.
About the homeless children, yes that is definitely illegal and despicable but don’t their parents at least have some recourse through legal aid? I would think the local ACLU would pounce on this one. Is there a local charity? Our city offers all kinds of charitable assistance, mainly from donations, to assist school children with whatever they need, be it clothing, school supplies, etc. The hospital I work at has these drives every year, and its only one of many throughout the city.
Carder,
My goodness, thank you. While its never my intention to shut anyone up I do make every effort to be respectful. Thank you again, you made my night!
Heather:
The girls that already had appointments could have had them for other reasons besides abortions. Y’all seem to always forget that PP does other things besides abortions.
Mary:
All of the BF’s belongings are in two boxes by my front door. I about had a mental breakdown packing it up, but I did it all by myself. I figured if I did it would be easier than having to watch him do it. So I am waiting on him to come pick it up as we speak…
Midnite,
Good for you! Packing his things and putting them by the front door proves you mean business. You about had a mental breakdown, but obviously did not. See, you’re doing better than you thought. You’ve taken the first and most important step. One step at a time my friend, and one day at a time. Don’t think about next week, think about now, and handle tomorrow when it arrives. We’re, and that definitely includes me, are all here for you and will give you the support you need.
Midnite,
Another thing, it means a lot to me that you thought to update me.
Baby (5) – A human fetus.
Well yeah, the fifth definition. The unborn might be considered to be “babies” or maybe not. It’s no meaningful argument to state “is” or “is not” – it’s a totally subjective deal.
Nothing there of import in the abotion debate.
Doug
Hi Edyt,
strange as it sounds both you and Mary are partially right. A few years back I had the privilege of listening to a practicing Hindu from India. When the subject swung to prayer and suffering, he said. ‘In the West you pray NOT to have suffering at all, while, we in the East pray that we will not be overcome by the suffering that eventually comes.’ None have understood the ‘why’s’ of suffering and it remains a huge puzzle for everyone.
Some people just-pass-the hurt on down the line: a frustrated boss will yell at an employee >> a husband will find a way to hurt his wife >> in-turn she will smack her kid >> the child will be cruel to the dog >> the dog will fight with the cat >> the cat will piss on the couch. Pain does not end, but it is disguised differently. Pain in Mary’s generation was often what OTHER people lived … like famine, but was rarely what you personally experienced in North America. We may have had no clothes but hand-me-downs as a child, but we never came close to thinking ourselves as poor. [I personally know several families where the biggest hurt was: (1) not getting-to-choose what tv program to watch or, (2) ‘having-to-wash’ the supper dishes.] These difficulties are not made by you nor your generation and are much more difficult to handle because they are not overt, life-threatening.
Your threat is ‘boredom’. The solution is to visit a kid dying of leukemia (you even have experience) at a local hospital … good ‘hot’ date, eh?
Then perhaps you will learn that suffering can be transformed into …. let you discover!!!!!!!!!
Doug,
I’m so glad you enjoyed the post on my great grandmother on the other thread. Its so incredible how life and times change. Its so important to hand down these stories because once they’re lost they gone forever.
I’m still working on my family history album and am learning so much from other older family members in the process. Thank heaven for my mother’s sharp 89y/o memory!
So when are you all going to go to STL for an event?
STL, too far!
Come to Kentucky for an event.
Wait…………
There will never be a Planned Parenthood opening in KY, because we are one of the capitals of “Barefoot and Pregnant”
….But we do wear shoes, I swear!
:-)
Haha, a friend of mine from WashU lives in Kentucky.
Wow! Steve Trombley never ceases to amaze me!
Just a thought. Does his title “CEO” stand for “Child Execution Officer”?
Doug
Well yeah, the fifth definition. The unborn might be considered to be “babies” or maybe not. It’s no meaningful argument to state “is” or “is not” – it’s a totally subjective deal.
Nothing there of import in the abotion debate.
While we all know that you are willing to call the fetus a baby, there are many here who refuse to even acknowledge that it is “human”…
Laura doesn’t even acknowledge that it’s a human being, let alone a person. You have stated that after 24 weeks you consider the baby to be viable and would cut off abortions at this point (if you ran the world). SoMG and Laura couldn’t care less if the child is viable, human OR a baby.
They’d kill it anyway. If I had a dime for every time Laura said “No babies have ever been killed at an abortion mill” I’d be packing for a trip to Hawaii now.
It certainly does matter and I’ll tell you why:
We have commented before that the Pro-Life stance is the same no matter who you ask. We present a united front. Abortion is murder. Life begins at conception.
Your side however, runs all over the page.
You believe it is acceptable until 24 weeks, or until the “fetus” takes a breath outside of the womb.
SoMG couldn’t care less if it breathes, or drives a car. You can still kill it.
Laura doesn’t acknowledge that it is human and alive at any point.
Rae only thinks it’s acceptable if the mothers life is at risk.
Midnite only thinks it’s okay till the end of the first trimester.
Rae supports the use of contraception even tho it could quite possibly result in an abortion by not allowing the baby to implant if it is concieved.
JK, JM, Alyssa, Edyt, Sally, Hal…
Each one has his own definition of when abortion is okay and when and if it is not.
So we end up having to fight each one of you individually instead of as a whole.
With you it’s the whole faulty valuation thing.
With Laura it’s the “IT IS A BABY” argument.
With Rae…well, I have no argument with Rae.
With JKeller it’s trying to make her see that the babies have rights too.
With Midnite, it helping her to understand that the first three months just means the ‘baby” is in a less developed stage, but a baby nonetheless.
With SoMG,it’s hoping he gets struck by lightening.
So please don’t tell us, that whether or not its a baby has nothing to do with the argument. For you this might be true, but for those of us that stand up for the helpless and the marginalized it means everything.
You, SoMG and Laura are not the majority of pro choicers. Most of them seem to understand that if there truly is a child involved, then the whole argument changes.
Not everyone is soulless. And while we will never reach those of you that are lacking consciences, we still have a chance with the Kellers and midnites, as their consciences are still functioning!
Thus, it is obviously of import in the abortion debate…
The girls that already had appointments could have had them for other reasons besides abortions. Y’all seem to always forget that PP does other things besides abortions.
Midnite, none of us have ever forgotten that. It’s a moot point.
Like we’ve brought up before, killing women was only only took up a small percentage of Ted Bundy’s life. Does that mean we would have wanted him to be our neighbor, just because killing women wasn’t “all” he did? He did good things too!
All of the BF’s belongings are in two boxes by my front door. I about had a mental breakdown packing it up, but I did it all by myself. I figured if I did it would be easier than having to watch him do it. So I am waiting on him to come pick it up as we speak…
Wow, that is awesome, Midnite! I know it was difficult, but you are doing the right thing- you are standing firm…you are telling him, “I’m not going to wait any longer for YOU to FIGURE OUT if you love me. I’m not going to let YOU decide whether you want to be in this relationship any longer. I’m not going to let YOU control MY happiness, MY dreams, or MY goals. I’m not going to let you hurt me anymore.”
Good for you!
midnite, hi there. I’ve been busy, but thanks for keeping us all posted on your progress! I am so, so proud of you!! You are one strong woman. mid, I have had break ups where I couldn’t even pull myself out of the bed. Too depressed. You have taken major action. I commend you. Don’t let it get you down to the point where you can’t function. Shoot, cry every day, if you must. You are an awesome girl, and you deserve the very BEST! I consider you to be a cyber buddy now. Just keep moving forward. You are beautiful. You have your youth. You’ve got a lot on your plate. Cry if you need to. It helps. your friend, Heather..
MK,
“You are very cryptic when you talk about your experiences with religion, so it’s very hard to know where you’re coming from.”
I’ll clear things up a little. I was raised Presbyterian and abandoned the faith when I was ten years old. My church never rejected me. I rejected the church because I came to believe that everything it was based on was lie.
“I wish I could help. I’d tell you I’d pray for you but I’m afraid you throw something at me…lol.”
Thanks for the thought. And don’t worry, I’m not violent.
“I wish I knew what to say or how to help.”
Sadly, I’ve come to the realization that I’m the only one who can help and I haven’t the faintest idea how.
Enigma,
Let’s start somewhere…
Tell me what happened to make you think that the “church” was lying to you…
John- when you’re in the hospital being treated as something, would you honestly like someone you didn’t know to come in and see you in the hospital just so they could see an ‘example of suffering’ and be ‘inspired’? Not gonna lie, John, that’s one of the more disturbing ideas you’ve put out there. A kid with cancer isn’t a display. They’re a normal kid who still on occasion does bad things just like every other kid. Objectifying them like some kind of little Jesus is creepy.
MK,
Basically because I came to the conclusion that there was no God.
This was based off the fact that the one time I truly, desperately needed someone, there was no one there. It didn’t matter how hard I prayed or how hard I tried. In the end, there was only me and the empty echo of useless prayer.
Enigma, over and over in the Bible, you will see these same feelings coming out through different people in the Bible.
Even Jesus felt alone and as though God had forsaken Him while he was being crucified. “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
David frequently made prayers to God which showed that He felt lonely and as though his prayers were not being heard:
1How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
2How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
3Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Yet, he did not give up hope in the Lord:
4Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.
5But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
6I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
When Job’s whole family was taken from him, including his home and his possessions, he felt alone and abandoned…He cried out to God:
7Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.
8He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
9He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
10He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
14My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
22Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
23Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
But Job did not lose faith in God:
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And we know what ended up happening in Job’s later life.
There is no where in the Bible that assures us that we will not suffer in this life. In fact, quite the contrary is expected of us. But, the promises are that whatever happens, will always work out for the good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
I dont’ know what happened to you, but just remember Joseph, and how he was sold into slavery by his own brothers. Imagine the despair he must have felt. I know you probably despaired when whatever happened to you happened. But I want you to remember what was the end of Joseph’s suffering. If it had not happened, he would not have been given the opportunity to save thousands of people from a 7 year famine that was to come.
There are many more examples like this, but I’ll spare you right now. The Bible say that God’s ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. What we perceive sometimes as a bad thing, God can very easily turn into good.
It’s just a thought I thought I’d pass along in case you were interested.
Enigma,
Basically because I came to the conclusion that there was no God.
*
This was based off the fact that the one time I truly, desperately needed someone, there was no one there. It didn’t matter how hard I prayed or how hard I tried. In the end, there was only me and the empty echo of useless prayer.
Okay, what happened (in as impersonal terms as you feel comfortable with) happened at that time?
We’re going to go slow here, because I don’t want to play amateur psychologist…I honestly want to see if we can find some kind of understanding or epiphany…if that’s okay with you. I don’t want to just jump in with cliches here…’
Which is why if you want to take this to a private venue ie: email, I’ll be more than happy to. Your call.
Enigma –
Don’t lose hope, and don’t give up so easily. There was an answer, you just didn’t hear it or didn’t like the answer.
A quick story (which is also for Edyt): In my 20’s I was very sick. The chances were very high that I would not survive, however there was a research study that I could join that may save my life. (One answered prayer I didn’t see). The testing was grueling and painful. The treatment was worse. I was living alone in downtown Indianapolis. The reason I was alone was because my roommate decided to sell most of my belongings while I was in the hospital so she could pay for her new boyfriends drugs. She even attempted to sell my car. (believe it or not – second prayer unknowingly answered). I was sick, and even though the majority of my medical bills were being paid through state fundings, grants and research ‘scholarships’, I still had to pay rent, utilites, food, etc. I applyed for section 8 housing – free, or reduced rent for people who need it – However, I was denyed because I didn’t have a child to support. Basically I was told that because I was being responsible and not getting pregnant when I couldn’t afford it, I was screwed. I worked full time to pay for everything. (third prayer unknowingly answered). It was hard, painful and I found myself praying that I would die. (Glad that one wasn’t answered!) I pulled through, the treatments worked, and I was on the road to recovery. It took a long time to heal mentally because while all this was happening my friends were either using me to obtain something they wanted, or just walking away. The area I was living in was dangerous and frightening. However, I had no choice. I could afford it and I didn’t have to pay utilites, so I didn’t have to worry about utilities cost going up and down. One of my neighbors was actually choked in the elevator because he refused to buy drugs. Financially, I was drowning. My car was repo’d, I couldn’t afford to eat three meals a day, so sometimes I had to ask someone at work if I could eat what they didn’t from their lunch. Then I was told that a promotion I was suppose to get was going to someone else. This promotion would have helped me pay my debt. (4th prayer unknowingly answered). I was pissed, but couldn’t leave because at that time I couldn’t go without insurance. I felt trapped. The Animal Hospital I was working in had a “sister” clinic in a small town just outside of Indianapolis. My BIL had given me his “hic-mo-bile” (1983 nissan king cab) so I could get to work – the buses didn’t go there. This is where I found out why I didn’t get the promotion, someone was lying and saying I was causing problems with the staff. When I left, they discovered it wasn’t me who was the cause, and the person who blamed me was fired. I got my promotion and went back to the main clinic. Getting stronger everyday, I was feeling better and also found a roomate. This roommate I now call “psycho” because that is what she was! (5th prayer unknowingly answered). I met who is now my husband, he got me out of the horrible apt building and helped me get better and helped me pay my bills. – Now that’s a prayer I noticed!
Why were these horrible things answered prayers?
First prayer – Although I hated the treatments involved, it saved my life.
second prayer – I put so much value on my personal possessions I didn’t even notice that I didn’t need them to be happy.
third prayer – It was discovered later that keeping active and not staying in bed was the answer to getting better. It was the rushes of adrenaline that helped keep me from being in more pain than what I already was. It also helped me to heal faster because I slept better than what i would have staying in bed all the time.
Fourth Prayer – If I got the promotion at that time, I would never have gone to the sister clinic and would not have been forced to babysit on the side so I could afford the gas. If I wasn’t babysitting I would never had met my friend Kara – I babysat for her sister. Kara is the one who gave my now husband my phone number.
Fifth Prayer – Although “Psycho” wasn’t the best person to be rooming with, it was her who talked me into going out on a date with the man I married.
oh – and BTW – None of my family lived in Indianapolis while I was going through this.
Why am i telling you all this? Because I had no clue that my prayers were actually answered. They just weren’t the answers I wanted, so I thought they weren’t being answered. Those are just 5 prayers of many that were answered at that time in my life. I just didn’t see it.
Maybe this story helped, maybe it gave you a headache ;-) Hopefully it will give you reason to perhaps reflect on your past.
Valerie, or maybe it wasn’t any of your prayers answered. Maybe you got lucky. What about people who pray in situations like that and then end up in situations 10 times worse than yours? Did God ignore their prayers? Why would he spend time answering those prayers of yours and completely ignoring others?
MK- we could ask you the same questions from a psychological viewpoint. I have a nice question for the Christians on the site- how do you determine who really talks to god? We have crazy people who say God tells them to kill people, then we have people who say God told them to try and help cure cancer and stuff. What, it’s ‘Satan’ if they are bad voices and God if it’s good voices?
Erin,
That’s simplifying it a bit, but yeah. We have a set of rules that we have been given. The ten commandments. If someone claims to be talking to God and God is telling them to break one of the commandments in His name, then you pretty much have your answer.
When it’s not so simple, then we look at the fruits produced by these people. Mother Theresa? Good Fruits. Medjugorje? Good Fruits. Fatima?
Good Fruits. Jim Jones? Not so good.
http://www.catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp
On discernment.
So, it’s PEOPLE who are making this discernment? Which means they could be wrong? Who are mere humans to say things like that? Maybe god has some divine reason for wanting certain people to kill other people. Bible is FULL of God killing entire civilizations and innocents. Think liberals are baby killers? Look at Exodus!
MK- we could ask you the same questions from a psychological viewpoint. I have a nice question for the Christians on the site- how do you determine who really talks to god? We have crazy people who say God tells them to kill people, then we have people who say God told them to try and help cure cancer and stuff. What, it’s ‘Satan’ if they are bad voices and God if it’s good voices?
Because God is love. If a person’s actions come from hate, malice, anger, spite, etc…you can guarantee they are not doing it of God, because God doesn’t condone any of those things.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
It’s that simple.
Well Erin,
We tried to get pigs and camels to the do the discerning, but they refused. So we settled for PEOPLE!…
And we’ve been seriously doubting Thomas Aquinas’ sanity for some time now. We’re convinced Padre Pio and Mother Theresa were schizophrenic and just know that Pope Benedict has been dropping acid on the sly. What to do, what to do…
Perhaps we’ll just start throwing darts to figure out which miracles we should accept.
Did you even read the link I sent you. Believe it or not people with greater minds than you or I have run across this dilemma before. Hate to burst your bubble, but you haven’t stumbled upon any great revelations here…
Bethany- so all the mass murder and baby slaughter and stuff like that that God does in the bible…it’s all driven by love and goodness? Maybe abortionists are just really close to god!
so all the mass murder and baby slaughter and stuff like that that God does in the bible…it’s all driven by love and goodness?
Well, actually, it was. It was for a greater good than that which seemed obvious at the time. Often suffering and unpleasantness has to occur in order for a greater good to be achieved. The difference is when it comes from God, it’s good. When man tries to play God, it’s bad.
Thanks, MK. That is exactly right.
What did Job say when his whole family was taken from him because of Satan?
“The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”
OK. Well then. God in the bible is directly responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths. Directly, the ‘devil’ is responsible for I believe two. In the bible.
Forgive me for being reluctant to worship this mighty deity who kills for his own pleasure and then tells us that he can do it, but if we do, he will smite us!
Sounds like a dictator, kinda, doesn’t it? I thought we were all americans, you know, and we loved freedom?
Erin –
Somtimes your negativity is overwhelming.
I believe in what the Buddhists and Hindu’s call Karma. (I use that word because it is more mainstream that the Chritians Karma – “Do Unto Others….”)
While going through all this; all the time believing I was agnostic, I never stole. I never killed. I never cursed God’s name (the thought occured to me, but I believed myself agnostic). I didn’t blame my parents and hate them because it was their genetics that caused my problems. I still honored them for my life. I didn’t take the pain away by drinking alcohol to excess or doing drugs. I still kept my way of life. I do not believe in messing with my Karma.
And before you say “so all the people who don’t get their prayers answered deserve what they got?” or something like that. The answer could be yes. You may not believe in it but almost ALL the major religions have the idea of Karma. Are they all wrong? Billions of people believe this and live by it.
If I had stole to get food, I would have hurt the person I stole from. That doesn’t help that other person, nor does it help me in the long run either. Because I was good to the people that I could have easily stole from, they were good to me by helping me with a promotion – by helping me meet the right people, etc. Do you really think they would have been that nice if I was caught steeling, or if they suspected me?
What goes around comes around. Was the kindness of these people my doing because I didn’t hurt them? Yes. Was it my knowledge of God’s word that helped me to do the right thing? Yes. Was all this God’s answer to my family’s prayers? Yes. You see, I wasn’t the only one doing all the praying. My family was praying for me too. The most powerful prayers I got answered were the unselfish ones from other people. Many of them strangers to me, but friends of my family.
And – God doesn’t ignore the prayers of the people who ended up 10 times worse than me. He listens. It is up to us to listen too. Have you ever read up on Karma? Sometimes, we have to suffer in order to save someone else. It may not seem fair, but that’s life. My suffering may have saved millions, I don’t know. The research went on to more tests and more research because of what they discovered from my healing. That is me suffering in order to help others. It’s a circular thing.
Erin,
You’re wrong. The devil is responsible for many more than 2 in the Bible.
God is responsible for all life, Erin. It is through our own fault that death was brought upon us (adam and Eve’s sin in the garden brought death upon mankind).
We would have never had to die, if we had not had sin placed upon us by our very first ancestors.
Instead of looking at God as a dictator who wants to kill and destroy, look at and remember His son, who He willingly offered on the cross, to suffer the payment for our sins for us. If not for Him, we would all deserve to die without God.
That’s a God of love and mercy, not dictatorship. We are the ones who brought the punishment upon ourselves, God did not bring it upon us.
It’s our own choice if we decide not to accept Jesus gift on the cross. So if you choose to reject Him, God is not going to stop you, Erin. He’s not going to send lightning to strike you.
That’s your freedom of choice.
If you choose not to believe anything I’ve said, that’s also your choice. I’m not going to stop you. But at least you’ve heard it.
Valerie, very good points.
Valerie- I do believe in karma. I believe in karma because I believe in inherent balance in all things. God doesn’t fit into that. I don’t believe in God because the bible is inherently absurdly flawed, and the concept of god is nothing that hasn’t come and gone plenty of times before in thousands of other religions. God is an idea that is self-serving to humanity by giving them an escape from inherent responsibility. My negativity is in an attempt to make people see the negative side. I can point out all the absurdities of blind faith I want, and you will all still refuse to see. At the very least I can plant the seeds. You don’t realize that if something is OK for god but not for you, it’s not much of anything. It’s empty. It’s an idea. It’s a myth. God, Zeus, Osiris, Odin, Jupiter, they all fall under the ‘hero with a thousand faces’ trap. It’s a mental support structure. It’s psychological.
Well, Bethany, why should we have to suffer for what people who lived generations before us did? Oh, and doesn’t that mean that our design was inherently flawed? If God was all knowing and omnipotent, he probably could have kept us from an eternity of pain and suffering, just by wiring something a little different in Eve to make her not want that fruit. Oh, and in terms of mental support, if that isn’t a GREAT instrument for the enforcement of inherently patriarchal social structure, I don’t know what is.
Erin –
Do you have any idea how much you contradict yourself?
First you say:
“Maybe you got lucky. ”
I have never read anything that says Karma has anything to do with “luck”.
Then you say:
“What about people who pray in situations like that and then end up in situations 10 times worse than yours? ”
Your answer is in your belief of Karma! You say Karma, I say God. If you believe in Karma then you believe that your actions are a direct result of something else and that the something else is a direct result of your actions. People who believe in Karma understand this and still live their lives accordingly and can still end up 10 times worse than someone else. In the belief is Karma, you have meditation. In the belief of the Golden Rule, you have prayer. How is it possible to believe in one and not the other?
Let’s continue:
“Maybe god has some divine reason for wanting certain people to kill other people. ”
You are smart enought to know the Bull in this. God gave us free will. Just as he gave Lucifer free will. It is this free will that can either save us or cause more problems.
“Bible is FULL of God killing entire civilizations and innocents. ”
Yes, he even had his own son killed. Didn’t the deaths of the ones he killed help to save millions more? One life is not more important than the life of many.
“Maybe abortionists are just really close to god!”
Abortionists murder for the pleasure of one. God “murdered” for the betterment of many. Huge difference. One is for selfishness. One is for the sake of the community.
“I believe in karma because I believe in inherent balance in all things. God doesn’t fit into that. ”
You’ll have to explain that one futher.
“God is an idea that is self-serving to humanity by giving them an escape from inherent responsibility. ”
huh? escaping responsibility? I guess that is why we do penance when we sin in order to escape responsibility. If you truly understood faith and Karma you would not believe this nor would you have said it.
“My negativity is in an attempt to make people see the negative side.”
I know the negative side. I’ve been a part of the negative side.
” I can point out all the absurdities of blind faith I want, and you will all still refuse to see. ”
I know I do not have blind faith. I question my faith on a daily basis. I question and doubt everything. Why do you think I have “blind faith” just because I believe something that I have researched for the past 18 years?
“At the very least I can plant the seeds. You don’t realize that if something is OK for god but not for you, it’s not much of anything. ”
God never took his actions lightly. You make it sound like he just waves a wand and “evil” things happen. I don’t recall God ever ‘murdering’ anyone without warning. I believe he warned the people in Sadom and Gamorrah. I believe he warned the Pharaoh before the plagues. Once again – he did what was right for the community/civilization. Or d you believe we should all still be slaves? If I murder someone who is trying to murder another, i am justified in this murder, right? If I use murder to stop the mass slaughter of people am I guilty?
Penence is a form of displacing responsibility. “Hey, I did ten hail marys, now it’s OK with god that I stole that candy bar!”
Divine intervention seems to suddenly make terrible, terrible things OK. If ‘God’ doesn’t have a better way to deal with his own creation other than slaughtering children, then I want nothing to do with him. The bible also says that God hardened the Pharoahs heart. If he hadn’t ‘hardened’ the pharoahs heart, maybe he wouldn’t have had to kill all the first borns. Maybe god just had his mind set on killing a bunch of kids.
Karma, lucky, ah, you don’t get it. Karma…karma is like my own personal mental support structure. Like god is to you. I fully acknowledge the possibility that it may not exist. On a personal level, I need to believe that it does. It’s my coping mechanism. It’s how I believe that people who do bad things will come to be punished. It’s naivete. Now, my belief in balance…that’s more of something I know is true. For all the good there is an inherent amount of equal badness but generally it isn’t discernable because they are all intermingled in shades of gray. It’s why I don’t believe in absolutes- like god.
Hi Erin.
“Penence is a form of displacing responsibility. “Hey, I did ten hail marys, now it’s OK with god that I stole that candy bar!””
This is simply not Catholic theology. God love you.
“The bible also says that God hardened the Pharoahs heart. If he hadn’t ‘hardened’ the pharoahs heart, maybe he wouldn’t have had to kill all the first borns.”
As one great theologian pointed out, God won’t force anyone to love Him. So in a spiritual sense, if one doesn’t want Him, then His response could rightfully be, “Fine, then. Don’t want me? Then don’t have me” which leads to the proverbial hardness of heart.
Karma, lucky, ah, you don’t get it. Karma…karma is like my own personal mental support structure. Like god is to you. I fully acknowledge the possibility that it may not exist. On a personal level, I need to believe that it does. It’s my coping mechanism.
It’s how I believe that people who do bad things will come to be punished. It’s naivety. Now, my belief in balance…that’s more of something I know is true. For all the good there is an inherent amount of equal badness but generally it isn’t discernible because they are all intermingled in shades of gray. It’s why I don’t believe in absolutes- like god.
How do you even believe that what those people did are “bad”, since you supposedly believe in no moral absolutes?
Sure, they were “bad” to you, but to the person who did them, were they necessarily “bad”. In fact, to the person who wronged you, they could have been doing something “right” or “good” for themselves.
So will Karma really punish one for doing something they thought was “right”, just because you happen to perceive it as “wrong”?
Erin –
I don’t get it? I devoted 3 years of my life studying the Hindu and Buddhist philosophy’s. A good portion of that study was in the concept of Karma. You cannot just say it is a “personal mental support structure” and still claim to know what it is! It is more than people who do bad things will be punished. It is about how our actions in the present will affect the past and future. It is about cause and effect and not reward and punishment. Karma is about the totality of our lives and how it will affect our future (and future lives.) Karma cannot be “like God is to me”. Karma isn’t an entity. (Unless you believe in Karmic Dirt. But something tells me you don’t believe in microscopic particles that attach themselves to the energy of the soul).
“Penence is a form of displacing responsibility. “Hey, I did ten hail marys, now it’s OK with god that I stole that candy bar!”
This is BS and you know it. Just because a comedian says this, or just because unscrupulous people in the past and present try to do this doesn’t make it true. You cannot confess a sin, do penence and not be sorry. You cannot confess a sin, do penance with every intention of doing it again. That isn’t how it works. You confess your sins while being heartly sorry for them and then try your hardest to not do them again. You can’t just say “oh well, I’ll go to confession and all will be well…” Nope! Doesn’t work that way.
Erin,
Sometimes it takes a lifetime to arrive at the possibility of entertaining the idea of God. Look at Bernard Nathanson, the granddaddy of the Pro-choice movement. Jewish atheist, committed thousands of abortions, a weak mother, a bully father, suicide prevalent in the family tree, just about anything that could go wrong did go wrong as far as he was concerned. And did I mention he was more of a philosophy junkie than our dear Diana of happy memory ever was?
Intellectually he STRUGGLED to come to terms with the issues in his life, the main one being “Is there a God?” Not easy being in your 60’s and turning your world upside down for such a ridiculous question.
I could name others, but I’ll just stick with him since he has such intimate knowledge of the abortion idustry.
I won’t ruin the end of the story. Read his autobiography if you have the chance or the interest. A must-read for anyone suscribing to the “choice” camp.
No, Bethany. Karma will balance things. I don’t believe that those people are bad. I do believe that people do bad things. Maybe they don’t percieve it as wrong. That’s fine. I don’t have the right to judge it apart from pain it causes to me. If someone hurts me in a certain way, I expect it to be dealt back at them at some point in some manner. I simply expect it to balance.
Erin,
Sometimes it takes a lifetime to arrive at the possibility of entertaining the idea of God. Look at Bernard Nathanson, the granddaddy of the Pro-choice movement. Jewish atheist, committed thousands of abortions, a weak mother, a bully father, suicide prevalent in the family tree, just about anything that could go wrong did go wrong as far as he was concerned. And did I mention he was more of a philosophy junkie than our dear Diana of happy memory ever was?
Intellectually he STRUGGLED to come to terms with the issues in his life, the main one being “Is there a God?” Not easy being in your 60’s and turning your world upside down for such a ridiculous question.
I could name others, but I’ll just stick with him since he has such intimate knowledge of the abortion idustry.
I won’t ruin the end of the story. Read his autobiography if you have the chance or the interest. A must-read for anyone suscribing to the “choice” camp.
@Erin,
there is much in the Bible that does indeed directly rel;ate to psychology. But there are also all kinds of ‘silences’ that make any reference to the superiority of psychology mute. If God is ‘silent’, there is incredable depth: just one example when in a dream Abraham understands that he is to take Isaac’s life on Mt. Horeb. [BACKGROUND: Abraham is a very old man…. Isaac, his only son is likely a teen and much loved by his parents. Isaac’s life is considered miraculous.] It takes them 5 days to walk to Horeb …. what happened to Abraham in those 5 days? Scriptures are silent, but I can easily imagine a whole series of psychological theories to ‘explain’ these events. Another mind-blower, happened in the Garden of Gethsemane … where Jesus sweat blood. [What’s it mean?]
Why do we think psychology even approaches faith in subtlety, when God’s silence can work such head-spinning?
And by the way, I purposely chose a kid with leukemia because he/she will absolutely demand to not be an exhibit but a friend who is dying. A befriending person dies too … part of the grieving process, but I guarantee you will learn more about what it means to be human than a ton of psychology courses and degrees.
carder- um…it’s not possible to be a Jewish athiest.
Valerie- I don’t believe in a religious form of karma. I believe in an inherent balancing force, which is more conveniently described as karma. I know plenty about eastern religions, and about Christianity, and I came up with my own ideas that I liked and disliked from lots of them. I can’t describe my belief structure in a word. I like it that way.
Erin,
MK’s link on discernment does a thorough job of explaining the why’s and wherefore’s of your doubts. Lengthy, but thorough.
You haven’t hit 20 yet, so I’m not going to give up on you. The fact that you have these questions shows that you’re taking responsibility for your faith.
Another thing, Taking the bible, which is a difficult book for even the most learned scholar, at the base, physical level does it a major disservice. There’s many layers, the most important being the spiritual aspect of its stories and such. Having to look above ourselves takes guts. Thanks to ST. John of the Cross, I’ve arrived at a new place when it comes to that. It’s opened up avenues I never thought possible.
Here’s an idea! Visit a monastery or cloistered convent and expect a dramatically different view! You live in Georgia? Conyers comes to mind. I know of a monstery there that a couple of my friends have had the privilege of visiting.
Erin
There actually was a prominent rabbi, who recently died, that was a self proclaimed atheist but continued to refer to himself as a rabbi. Go figure.
“…it’s not possible to be a Jewish athiest.”
Those were his words, not mine.
I take it to mean that he was a member of the Jewish race, but decided that God didn’t exist, which doesn’t take away from the fact that he was born and raised a Jew.
Carder, I have bought “Hand of God”, and “Aborting America” by Bernard Nathanson….and so far,they are very interesting. I think even abortion supporters would find this book fascinating. I have to admit, it’s difficult to read him though at times, for me anyway. He’s has quite the vocabulary.
Carder- I hit 20 two weeks ago. PLEASE give up on me. I don’t like religion. I personally believe that it makes people stupid. More wars have been fought and people killed over religion than anything else. I want no part in a culture based on death, and hiding from fact.
Bethany- you should watch Zeitgeist. And maybe read “The God Who Wasn’t There”. The way that I see it, there is logic, and there’s refusal to see logic. I don’t care which you pick as long as it doesn’t interfere with my life.
More wars have been fought and people killed over religion than anything else.
Actually, you’re wrong about that as well. I don’t know if you have been here long enough to remember Rasqual, but he posted proof that there have been more wars and deaths over non-religious reasons than of religious ones. I think I might send him an email so he can send me the info.
“I hit 20 two weeks ago”
My bad. Happy birthday!
Might want to read my Sept. 16 8:26 pm post.
And I MIGHT give up on you if you’ll give up being pro-choice…
;-)
God is an idea that is self-serving to humanity by giving them an escape from inherent responsibility.
Abortion is an idea that is self-serving to humanity by giving them an escape from inherent repsonsibility.
So if you have no problem with abortion, and escaping inherent responsibility, you really shouldn’t have problem with a god that allows you that privilege.
I don’t like religion. I personally believe that it makes people stupid. More wars have been fought and people killed over religion than anything else…..
Bethany- you should watch Zeitgeist. And maybe read “The God Who Wasn’t There”. The way that I see it, there is logic, and there’s refusal to see logic. I don’t care which you pick as long as it doesn’t interfere with my life.
So basically, you believe the majority of the world is stupid, and that somehow YOU have logic and true understanding (based on…?) because you don’t believe in God or a god?
You, and only others like you, in the very small minority of the world, are the superior beings who understand what all the “simpletons” out there don’t get?
Oh if only the whole world could bow down to you and all other atheists, and believe that your logic surpasses all knowledge just because you say so.
But you’re “okay” with people “being stupid” if they don’t agree, I see. As long as they stay out of your way, that is.
I want no part in a culture based on death, and hiding from fact
If you want no part in a culture based on death, why support abortion?
‘God’ doesn’t have a better way to deal with his own creation other than slaughtering children, then I want nothing to do with him
This from a woman who slaughtered her own child?
“I want no part in a culture based on death, and hiding from fact”
Is that really coming from you, Erin? Tell that to your blueberry.
Erin:
“I do believe in karma. ”
“Valerie- I don’t believe in a religious form of karma.”
How do you have Karma, which is a religious concept, but not believe in a religious form. YOU DO NOT believe in Karma. You believe in Erin’s own manipulation of Karma. That is not Karma.
“I know plenty about eastern religions, and about Christianity, and I came up with my own ideas that I liked and disliked from lots of them.”
If this were true and you “know plenty” you would have known that you do not believe in Karma. I do not say that I am an athiest, but then say I have my own form and that I believe in God, but I’m not agnostic. If you truley “know plenty” you would know how extremely offensive it is to people that you belittle their faiths by thinking your version of their faith is the correct version of faith – hence, you know Karma. When indeed you are just using a word you know nothing about to be cool.
From Websters: Karma – 1 often capitalized : the force generated by a person’s actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person’s next existence
From The Free Dictionary:
1. Hinduism & Buddhism The total effect of a person’s actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person’s existence, regarded as determining the person’s destiny.
2. Fate; destiny.
3. Informal A distinctive aura, atmosphere, or feeling: There’s bad karma around the house today.
From: Dictionary.com –
Erin,
Where did you learn what you know about religions? A cracker jack box? Good Lord, girl.
You’ve gotten the Catholic Faith COMPLETELY wrong, don’t know karma from a kumquat and now you say there is no such thing as a Jewish Atheist. It’s almost entertaining. How does one form such strong opinions about something they know nothing about. I’m fascinated.
Please, explain Islam to me. This ought to be quite entertaining.
OOps – went a bit nuts on the bold…
sorry….
Thank you very much, Valerie.
This is Erin who would have laid down her life for thousands of strangers if it meant a cure could be found to heal them.
But ask her to “lay down” her life for 9 months? NO WAY!
More wars have been fought and people killed over religion than anything else.
Oh my GOD Erin,
Is your life just one big cliche`?
One might reasonably ask, however, whether or not there is a corresponding list of non-religious wars. After all, if religion is really good for nothing but “starting wars,” then surely its elimination would do away with, or at least considerably diminish, the perpetuation of warfare across the globe.
Jack Perry has presented one such list of non-religious wars, as follows:
“1.) The Seven Years’ War (Britain & France)
2.)The American Revolution
3.)The French Revolution
4.)The Napoleonic Wars (France & Europe)
5.)The Revolutions in the Americas
6.)The Wars to create and preserve the British Empire (Boer War, Irish Revolution, and the Great Game with Russia would all be examples)
7.)The American Civil War
8.)The Crimean War
9.)The Spanish-American War
10.)The Great War, The War to End All Wars, or World War I (whatever you want to call it)
11.)The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
12.)The Spanish Civil War
13.)Stalin’s invasions of Finland, the Baltic states, and Poland
14.)World War II
15.)The Chinese Revolution
16.)The Cold War, including but not limited to the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, the American intervention in Grenada, and the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan
17.)The Cultural Revolution in China (If you don’t want to call this a war I’ll concede it)
18.)Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge Revolution
19.)The Falklands War
20.)The Persian Gulf War between Iran & Iraq
21.)The Persian Gulf War between the United Nations and Iraq
The Breakup of Yugoslavia (beginning with Slovenia).”
Ahahaha, now we’re getting places. Took me a while to get you folks militant. Now it’ll be fun.
MK- I studied religion through high school and have taken two religion classes in college. I have read the base texts of pretty much everything. The Vedas, the Eddas, the Bible, the Quran, the Torah. You ever notice that they are ALL THE SAME STORY, just prepackaged to accomodate certain aspects of different cultures?
I think Islam is no more right than Christianity is. You come from the exact same place as Muslims do, you know. You worship the same god.
See, you’re here claiming that abortion is obviously super wrong- but God has a habit of killing already born children. And doing it quite often. How can you reconcile that inside your faith?
Lemme explain something- a Jew is a religious term describing someone who follows the Jewish faith. Jewish atheist is an oxymoron.
MK, enlighten ME as to what Islam is. There, I’m sure, is a report brimming with bias and scorn. Atheists don’t respect Christians or any kind of religious fanatic because they don’t respect us- and they find backwards ways to justify it.
Valerie- when you want me to start throwing around my vocabulary, all you have to do is ask. “the tenet of karma is essentially ‘if you do good things, good things will happen to you
Erin –
If you want to stay ignorant that is fine. Didn’t you even read the definitions of Karma? I’ll help you…oh, and don’t worry, use all the vocabulary that you wish. As you can see, I have plenty of access to dictionaries.
Websters: “the force generated by a person’s actions ..to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences…
TFD: “The total effect of a person’s actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person’s existence”
And I’ll quote from Wikipedia:
” Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward; karma simply deals with what is. The effects of all deeds actively create past, present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one’s own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others.”
Just because you want to oversimplify and claim knowledge, doesn’t mean you understand the concept behind the belief. If you do not understand the concept, you cannot claim to practice the belief.
Here’s the email I got back from Rasqual (re: non-religious violence):
“Not just wars, really — just death and destruction in general (though that surely includes a lot of wars)
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm
Leads to figures like this:
(Possibly) The Fifteen Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:
Death Toll Cause
50 million Second World War
40 million Mao Zedong
40 million Mongol Conquests
25 million Manchu Conquest
20 million Taiping Rebellion
20 million Annihilation of the American Indians
20 million Iosif Stalin
19 million Mideast Slave Trade
18 million Atlantic Slave Trade
17 million Timur Lenk
15 million First World War
9 million Russian Civil War
9 million Thuggee
8 million Fall of Rome
7 million Thirty Years War
5 million Congo Free State
3 million Chinese Civil War
The upshot is that folks who credit modernity with having progressed the human race so far along the path to some utopia antithetical to anything Faith fantasizes about, are deluded almost beyond belief. Modernity provided humankind with new destructive ideologies as well as tools to kill more efficiently, numerously, and distantly. Modernity enabled unprecedented extension of power, making wars more deadly and geographically widespread. Even the “best” of modernity’s ideologies ended up in nightmares.
Those who deem the U.S. as being the “worst terrorist in the world” or an “evil empire” are particularly deluded if they think modernity or “progress” has shown antique and conflicted Christianity to have a history of unsurpassed violence. It’s easily surpassed by at least three couple orders of magnitude by secular motives toward violence. Those who consider the U.S. little different from Hitler (“Bushitler,” “Fascist neocons”, etc.) are simply taking perhaps the zenith of modernity (US political system and our economic philosophy) to be of a kind with the rest of the mess, proving how little trouble religion has really been in comparison. This kind of interlocutor borders on being an anarchist postmodern, though — happily rejecting modernity AND religion. However, they do wrong to deem religion and modernity equal problems in the world. and they’d do well to consider how religion can subvert the modernity they also despise.
But I yack. ;-)
Best to ye!”
WE LOSE OUR BEARINGS ENTIRELY BY SPEAKING OF “THE LOWER CLASSES” WHEN WE MEAN HUMANITY MINUS OURSELVES.
For the record, “foetus” is a Latin word which means “little one”, “offspring”, “child”. Thus it is interchangeable with baby, but has been hijacked and misused by abortion profiteers/supporters in an effort to minimize the humanity of the unborn child. It is typical of genocidal agendas that the targeted victim class is subjected to a such a campaign of dehumanizing slurs, innuendos, and other linguistic manipulation propaganda in order to make the extermination of the group more acceptable to the rest of society. Hitler, for instance, referred to Jews as “parasites”, “sub-human”, “worthless eaters”, “parasites”, “a disease”, etc., thus paving the road to Auschwitz. Similar language was used to impugn the humanity of African Americans in order to justify slavery, Jim Crow laws and all their attendant human rights violations, and the road to Aurora’s Auschwitz, the new “Gemini” killing chamber, has also been paved with those exact perjorative terms (can anyone say “hate speech”? Ah, c’mon; you can do it!)applied to unborn children.
“Hide in a hiding place where no one ever goes;
Put in a pantry with your cupcakes…
It’s a little secret, just Planned Parenthood’s affair…Most of all, you’ve got to hide it from the kids”…any due apologies to Simon & Garfunkel…
It is not surprising that Planned Barrenhood’s would try to sneak into any city a new mega-deathcamp, or any other project, under a false cover; Banned Parenthood IS the false cover of choice (but not it’s victims’ choice)the eugenics movement created for itself after it’s true nature was exposed for all the world to see, and for all Germany to smell and bury, when the grisly, rotting contents of the Nazi death camps were, finally, publically shown. Exit “Ethnic Cleansing”, presto chango, enter “Family Planning”. It’s all documented; anyone who wants eyes to see can check it out at http://www.eugenics-watch.com.
“Planned Parenthood” is wholly dedicated to the service of the one who came but for to steal, kill and destroy, who is a liar from the beginning, and who has not forgotten how to disguise himself as an angel of light; so when they lie, they speak the language that comes most naturally to them.
Like a broken clock, however, they get it right about twice a day in spite of themselves. In addition to Trombley’s brazen “admission” that he was surprised that the prolifers didn’t find them out sooner, here are a couple of other things PP has said that actually bear repeating:
Valerie- why are you beating a dead horse? Force generated by a persons actions, ethical consequences, combined effects of the actions of a person, these all point to exactly what I am saying; balance. I have told you that I practice no belief. I understand the basics of Hindu, I understand the basics of Buddhism, though really, there isn’t much kharmic idealism in Buddhism. Janism maybe. Do you understand the modern connotation of the word karma? Haven’t you ever had a moment with a friend where you they said something mean and then tripped over something, and you laughingly called it karma? Use of a word doesn’t always have to fit with the dictionary definition. Right, dog? I mean, isn’t it far out that I can use a phrase like far out to mean cool? Even though far out might technically mean a generous distance away?
Thanks, Le Mot Juste! :) BTW, I used to have a copy of the pamphlet you mentioned:
here are a couple of other things PP has said that actually bear repeating:
First,
Lemme explain something…Jewish is an ethnic term as well as a religious term. It is totally possible to be a Jewish atheist just as it is totally possible to be an Italian atheist.
Second…
Take 2 religion courses hardly makes you well read in theology.
That’s like taking psych 101 and 102 and believing you’re ready for your PHD.
Thirdly…
Who taught those religion courses? Could it have been PEOPLE? Well we know how you feel about PEOPLE interpreting religions, so you just blew your credibility!
Fourthly…
Hinduism, Buddihism and Janism couldn’t be farther from the Christian faiths. They are nothing alike. They don’t accept a single God, an ultimate truth, an absolute authority and their goal is to become pure spirit, forfeiting all things physical. The Christian faith embraces the material and believes we are whole only when our bodies are united with our souls, not separated from them.
Islam is actually a faith that started as the Arab race. Ishmael was rejected by Sarah and banished from his heritage. As a result, God (the God of Abraham, The Judeo-Christian God) promised that he would have a separate inheritance. This is where Islam finds it’s roots.
Mohammed was a disturbed man that believed an angel visited him. In the beginning he preached peace and love, but when he was challenged he began to preach war and vengeance. This is where the extremist veiws come from.
Since the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims is the same God and all Good, anyone that follows any religion by taking the pure good out of it is in essence following the Christian God. It is not possible to follow Good without being for God since they are synonomous. Anyone, even if in the name of Christianity, that is choosing to follow evil, cannot possibly be following the Christian God because there is no evil in Him.
I cannot believe that you would accuse me of hating muslims. That is ludicrous, and I’m disappointed that you could believe that. I believe their faith system is flawed, but I also respect that they are (not the extremists) following what they believe to be good and true. Thus, they are following God.
The Catholic church says:
“The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God’s word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize.”
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.” 6
From the Catechism:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience
Erin,
Use of a word doesn’t always have to fit with the dictionary definition.
I wonder why that rule suddenly doesn’t apply when we use the word “murder” to describe an abortion.
Oh, mk, I feel so CHILDISH, surrounded by people who need a big daddy figure in the sky to get through their lives. I can’t take the word karma to mean a rough version of the theory it embodies, but you can take fetus to mean an entirely different stage of human development, and no one will bat an eye!
I am in a bit of a mood today, and you’re right about that. I’m having a nasty time lately and it’s 100% possible, even likely, that I’m taking it out here. I won’t push this any further, apart from saying that PIP has a good point- the pro-life movement does itself a major disservice by so vehemently aligning itself with religion.
Erin,
but you can take fetus to mean an entirely different stage of human development,
But it IS, by DEFINITION, a stage of development. YOU are the one trying to change it’s meaning!
Erin,
That’s not fair because you know that Val, Bethany and I rarely play the religion card…only when it’s brought up.
And you were attacking us unprovoked today.
It’s okay, obviously you’re struggling with something, but it really is unfair to say that we vehemently align ourselves with religion…
Erin, don’t let them get you down. They can’t accept you living your life as a responsible adult without an imaginary friend. That must be terrifying to them. I’ve enjoyed your posts.
Is it a full moon tonite or what?
Hal, you’ve been pushing our buttons for a couple of days now.
What’s up? Why all this animosity all of a sudden?
Why the attack mode?
Erin started this whole conversation and if you read carefully you’ll notice she expressed excitement at finally getting a rise out of us.
Ahahaha, now we’re getting places. Took me a while to get you folks militant. Now it’ll be fun.
I realize you people believe in vocabulary relativism, but even you would have to agree that the signals Erin was sending were that she wanted to rumble…
Hal- I could have done everything today in a bit more mature manner. I stand by everything I said in terms of content, but I was getting pretty nasty. If it changes anything, I have been experiencing the worst PMS I have had in YEARS this week. I just now got sobered up a little when I got in an actual FIGHT with my mom. We never yell at each other like that. MK and Valerie aren’t my mom- so I must’ve been being worse to them. Plus I found out that I have to have surgery on my cervix, which upset me too…I just need to go swimming in a big carton of cookie dough. I really am sorry. You guys know I usually express my views in a much more mature manner than that.
God-bless Erin, I hope your surgery goes well.
Thanks for the insight, Erin. Not knowing the outcome of surgery must be frazzling. May I ask why they felt the need to do surgery?
Dearest Hal,
The “imaginary friend” remark exhibits a gross misunderstanding of God, at best a base conception of all things spiritual. Having been there myself, from the lowest level to where I’m at now, I simply don’t want to go back there. It wouldn’t make sense. It’d be like returning to my pre-driver’s license days. Now that I know what’s out there and the freedom that comes with having a driver’s license, I wouldn’t want to trade it in. Capiche?
Peace.
Carder- I have a nice mass of precancerous cells they want to get rid of before trouble starts in my cervix.
Bethany,
Somehow that (the stories in the bible) doesn
Erin,
Good luck with your surgery. I hope that everything goes well for you and I wish you the speediest of all possible recoveries.
MK,
Valerie,
MK: While we all know that you are willing to call the fetus a baby, there are many here who refuse to even acknowledge that it is “human”…
MK, I think you’re just makin’ that up. If somebody says “not human” then they are wrong, and that’s not any significant part of the pro-life argument in the first place.
Doug
MK: Laura doesn’t even acknowledge that it’s a human being, let alone a person. You have stated that after 24 weeks you consider the baby to be viable and would cut off abortions at this point (if you ran the world). SoMG and Laura couldn’t care less if the child is viable, human OR a baby.
They’d kill it anyway. If I had a dime for every time Laura said “No babies have ever been killed at an abortion mill” I’d be packing for a trip to Hawaii now.
MK, I don’t know if you are stating their positions correctly or not. There is a lot of ranting and raving around here, and if you actually quoted them it would help.
It’s not that I would “cut off” abortions at viability, since there are some cases where there is such fetal deficiency or danger to the woman that it’s not nearly as much of an issue in the first place – cases where I don’t see it as any necessary good to force continuance of the pregnancy against the woman’s will.
Where the danger isn’t really a problem, etc., then abortion isn’t even really called for as much, since to end the pregnancy delivery can be induced, IMO.
Doug
Carder, to Erin: Sometimes it takes a lifetime to arrive at the possibility of entertaining the idea of God. Look at Bernard Nathanson, the granddaddy of the Pro-choice movement. Jewish atheist, committed thousands of abortions, a weak mother, a bully father, suicide prevalent in the family tree, just about anything that could go wrong did go wrong as far as he was concerned. And did I mention he was more of a philosophy junkie than our dear Diana of happy memory ever was?
Nathanson may have had some problems back then, bigtime. He’s such an old fraud now. He may have been back then, too.
Doug
MK: I wonder why that rule suddenly doesn’t apply when we use the word “murder” to describe an abortion.
Murder is a legal term. An act has to be illegal, in the first place, before it can be murder. Legal abortion, by definition, is not “murder.”
Sure – some people don’t like the idea of abortion, don’t want people to end pregnancies, etc., but in no way does that make abortion “murder.’
Doug
Doug,
Legal abortion, by definition, is not “murder.”
Try to keep up. The point of that statement was that Erin claimed that words definitions are not bound to dictionary definitions. I want to know why it works for the pro choice side, but not the pro life side…
legal abortion, by definition, is not murder………………..yes, and people are getting tired of that old lie…………
Somehow that (the stories in the bible) doesn
Nathanson may have had some problems back then, bigtime. He’s such an old fraud now. He may have been back then, too.
Why do you feel that he is a fraud now, Doug?
I don’t think Nathanson is a fraud at all. Doug, are you saying that people can’t change? I know a man who has been sober, thanks to AA, for several years now. Does that make him a phoney?? His life became so dark and depressing, hitting the bottle every day, that he wanted to die. He chose to get help. He also chose to help himself. Now, his life is 100% better.
I
Doug, I’m so glad you enjoyed the post on my great grandmother on the other thread. Its so incredible how life and times change. Its so important to hand down these stories because once they’re lost they gone forever.
I’m still working on my family history album and am learning so much from other older family members in the process. Thank heaven for my mother’s sharp 89y/o memory!
Mary, agreed – in spades!
I want to type up my grandpa’s letter from 1922, when he was a 19 year old “on the road.” It was ten hand-written pages but only “steno-pad” size and I imagine it’d only be one page when typed in 10 font Arial or similar.
If I get it done I’ll post it.
Best,
Doug
God answers prayers in one of three ways.
Yes.
No.
Wait.
“Legal abortion, by definition, is not “murder.”
MK: Try to keep up. The point of that statement was that Erin claimed that words definitions are not bound to dictionary definitions. I want to know why it works for the pro choice side, but not the pro life side…
Erin must have done it in a different thread – I went back and didn’t see it here. Agreed that not every meaning will be in a given dictionary – and sometimes it takes years for what has become fairly common usage to appear in dictionaries.
“Murder” is different because it’s a legal term, defined by the law.
Doug
Heather: Doug, are you saying that people can’t change? I know a man who has been sober, thanks to AA, for several years now. Does that make him a phoney?? His life became so dark and depressing, hitting the bottle every day, that he wanted to die. He chose to get help. He also chose to help himself. Now, his life is 100% better.
No, Heather, of course I’m not saying that people can’t change.
Sheesh – now I do see what Erin said:
Do you understand the modern connotation of the word karma? Haven’t you ever had a moment with a friend where you they said something mean and then tripped over something, and you laughingly called it karma? Use of a word doesn’t always have to fit with the dictionary definition. Right, dog? I mean, isn’t it far out that I can use a phrase like far out to mean cool? Even though far out might technically mean a generous distance away?
What logical argument can really be made with that?
Doug
“Nathanson may have had some problems back then, bigtime. He’s such an old fraud now. He may have been back then, too.”
Bethany: Why do you feel that he is a fraud now, Doug?
Because he presents his unprovable and relatively-newly-acquired beliefs as external truth, and they most certainly are not.
Doug
Because he presents his unprovable and relatively-newly-acquired beliefs as external truth, and they most certainly are not.
Most certainly? How can you know for sure, Doug?
Why wasn’t he a fraud back then, when he was presenting unprovable beliefs as external truths?
You know, unprovable beliefs like that the human fetus wasn’t a human being?
Since this is in the archives now, I’m not entirely sure if I should continue to respond here. However, I will do so until further notice.
Bethany,
Of course we don’t have a promise that we’ll get exactly what we want. It would be naive in the extreme for me to argue that to love and protect someone it is necessary to shield them from all pain and discomfort. I am well aware that by shielding someone in this manner the “shielder” (for lack of a better term) is preventing this individual from continuing the grow and develop.
“Where did the Bible ever say that things work out in “your best case scenario”? It says that things work out for “the good”, not “your best”.”
And who defines “the good?” I’m inherently suspicious of anything that includes a built-in definition that requires one to submit to the will of another. What makes your interpretation of “the good” right? What makes the Bible true?
“But that our Heavenly Father will give us what we need, and will take care of us, just like a good earthly father would care for his child.”
I could argue this on so many levels. I will not deny that some forms of pain and suffering have beneficial consequences for the individual who has suffered later. But not all forms do.
Can you really tell me that child that gets kidnapped, raped, and then brutally murdered was cared for and protected by a heavenly father? I cringe at the argument that this kind of death and others like it would serve some kind of higher good. To me, it would be a very cruel and vindictive God who could turn a blind eye to such acts.
MK,
“God answers prayers in one of three ways.
Yes.
No.
Wait.”
It is comforting to hold that sort of belief. I feel qualified to say that because it used to be a comfort. However, it can also be a rationalization that we use to feel a greater level of control in our lives. Not all comforts should be clung to.
“Because he presents his unprovable and relatively-newly-acquired beliefs as external truth, and they most certainly are not.”
Bethany: Most certainly? How can you know for sure, Doug?
His approach – I’ve seen the text of some of his speeches – is that his eyes were opened to a “new factual reality” when in no way does he know they are facts. If he’d be honest and say, “Now, I think so-and-so, and that is different from what I used to think,” that would be one thing. But he is treating the unproven as if it’s proven, and that’s false.
……
Why wasn’t he a fraud back then, when he was presenting unprovable beliefs as external truths? You know, unprovable beliefs like that the human fetus wasn’t a human being?
I don’t think he would have actually maintained that the fetus was not human or not a being. And, I did say that he may have been a fraud in the past, too.
Maybe he should have been a politician.
I see him like Norma McCorvery, from the Roe decision. I don’t think she even ended up having the abortion….?
She’s a sad, lonely woman trying to be in a “club” now, even if she’s switched sides, and she’s hoping to be supported by pro-lifers. That’s not to say she didn’t have plenty of problems before, either.
Doug